The American Reformer Podcast

What does it really mean to obey Christ’s command to love—family, church, nation, and the nations—in the right order? In this episode of the American Reformer Podcast, Timon Cline sits down with Alex Kocman, author of Ordered to Love, to unpack the Ordo Amoris, Protestant political theology, missions, and patriotism.

Alex Kocman is a Christian writer, podcaster, and church leader. He serves as Director of Communications and Engagement for ABWE and co-hosts The Missions Show and The World View podcasts. He is the author of the brand new book, Ordered to Love.

https://press.founders.org/shop/ordered-to-love/

Learn more about Alex Kocman's work:

https://alexkocman.com/about/

Why Ordered to Love had to be written:

https://alexkocman.com/2026/01/16/why-ordered-to-love-needed-to-be-written/

Timestamps:

0:00 – Intro & Welcome to American Reformer Podcast

0:37 – Who Is Alex Kocman? Missions, Media, and Theology

4:02 – Why Ordered to Love? The Flashpoints Behind the Book

10:25 – Universalism vs. Parochialism in the Church

16:53 – Do Christians Have a Duty to Love Their Own Nation?

24:25 – Nations in Scripture: From Abraham to Revelation

34:17 – How Grace Restores Nature

40:32 – What Is a Nation? Beyond ‘Propositional’ America

48:39 – Evangelical Guilt, Vocation, and ‘Real’ Ministry

58:04 – Final Exhortation: Missionaries, Activists, and the Order of Love

––––––

Follow American Reformer across Social Media:

X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/

YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer

Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer

Website – https://americanreformer.org/

Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer:

https://americanreformer.org/donate/

Follow Us on Twitter:

Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness

Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline

The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings.

Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer"

Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/

Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347

Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5

How can ministers of the gospel impact the state house? George Sayour of the PCA's Ministry to State in Tallahassee joins the show to discuss. 

George Sayour, Senior Pastor at Meadowview Reformed Presbyterian Church since 2019, transitioned from a career in engineering to education and administration. He holds a Master of Divinity from Knox Theological Seminary and is involved in various ministries, including Ministry to State (MTS) which he joined in March 2025. Now in Tallahassee, George ministers to elected representatives as the State Capitol Minister for Florida.

Learn more about George Sayour's work:

https://meadowviewpca.org/profiles/george-sayour/

https://www.ministrytostate.org/post/george-sayour-joins-mts-as-state-capitol-minister-for-north-carolina

––––––

Follow American Reformer across Social Media:

X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/

YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer

Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer

Website – https://americanreformer.org/

Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer:

https://americanreformer.org/donate/

Follow Us on Twitter:

Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness

Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline

The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings.

Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer"

Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/

Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347

Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5

Auron MacIntyre joins the show to talk about intramural conflicts in the MAGA coalition. 

Auron MacIntyre is the host of “The Auron MacIntyre Show” and a columnist for Blaze News. He offers thought-provoking and mold-breaking insights, drawing from the best political thinkers throughout history to make sense of our current political climate in a way that is easy to digest. He is Author of The Total State: How Liberal Democracies Become Tyrannies.

Learn more about Auron MacIntyre's work:

https://www.theblaze.com/u/auronmacintyre

https://twitter.com/AuronMacintyre

https://www.regnery.com/9781684515585/the-total-state/

––––––

Follow American Reformer across Social Media:

X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/

YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer

Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer

Website – https://americanreformer.org/

Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer:

https://americanreformer.org/donate/

Follow Us on Twitter:

Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness

Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline

The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings.

Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer"

Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/

Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347

Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5

How do Protestants compete in the online apologetics space? Austin Suggs joins the show to provide some insight. 

Austin Suggs is the founder of Gospel Simplicity, an online apologetics platform that dives deep on theological issues. Austin is a non-denominational Protestant and theology graduate from Moody Bible Institute.

Learn more about Austin Suggs' work:

https://www.gospelsimplicity.com/about

https://www.youtube.com/gospelsimplicity

https://austinsuggs.substack.com/

––––––

Follow American Reformer across Social Media:

X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/

YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer

Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer

Website – https://americanreformer.org/

Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer:

https://americanreformer.org/donate/

Follow Us on Twitter:

Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness

Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline

The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings.

Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer"

Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/

Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347

Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5

Patrick Casey talks to Timon about how to maintain focus in the MAGA coalition. 

Show Notes:

Restoring Order | Patrick Casey | Substack

Restoring Order | Podcast on Spotify

––––––

Follow American Reformer across Social Media:

X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/

YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer

Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer

Website – https://americanreformer.org/

Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer:

https://americanreformer.org/donate/

Follow Us on Twitter:

Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness

Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline

The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings.

Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer"

Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/

Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347

Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5

Wade Stotts, host of the Wade Show with Wade Stotts, talks to Timon about Trump, media, humor, the future of the right after Charlie Kirk, and much more. 

Wade Stotts is an American thought leader, host of "The Wade Show with Wade," and an acclaimed voice actor having narrated a pleathora of audiobooks. He previously worked as Creative Director for the Louder with Crowder show. He lives in Moscow, Idaho with his wife and kids.

Learn more about Wade Stotts' work:

https://canonplus.com/pages/wade-stotts

https://x.com/wadestotts

––––––

Follow American Reformer across Social Media:

X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/

YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer

Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer

Website – https://americanreformer.org/

Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer:

https://americanreformer.org/donate/

Follow Us on Twitter:

Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness

Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline

The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings.

Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer"

Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/

Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347

Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5

Pastor Jake Dell joins the show to talk about how we can revive the Protestant mainline and save historic churches from the Left. 

Jake Dell is the pastor of the First Congregational Church of Woodbury, Connecticut, and a former Episcopal priest.

Learn more about Jake Dell's work:

https://www.firstchurchwoodbury.org/

https://substack.com/@jwdell

https://americanreformer.org/author/jake-dell/

––––––

Follow American Reformer across Social Media:

X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/

YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer

Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer

Website – https://americanreformer.org/

Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer:

https://americanreformer.org/donate/

Follow Us on Twitter:

Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness

Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline

The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings.

Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer"

Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/

Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347

Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5

Professor of Church History at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, John Wilsey, joins the show to talk about his new book, a primer on the conservative tradition and religious freedom. 

Show Notes:

Purchase Religious Freedom: A Conservative Primer – https://a.co/d/i2Y99jj

Dr. John Wilsey is Professor of Church History and Philosophy and Chair of the Department of Church History and Historical Theology. Prior to coming to Southern, Wilsey taught elementary, middle, and high school students in history and Bible for eleven years in North Carolina and Virginia. He also has served Southern Baptist churches, as an associate pastor in Charlottesville, Virginia for eight years and interim pastor for three years in Spring, Texas

Learn more about John Wilsey's work:

https://www.sbts.edu/faculty/john-d-wilsey/

––––––

Follow American Reformer across Social Media:

X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/

YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer

Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer

Website – https://americanreformer.org/

Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer:

https://americanreformer.org/donate/

Follow Us on Twitter:

Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness

Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline

The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings.

Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer"

Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/

Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347

Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5

Caleb Morell, assistant pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist Church and PhD candidate at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, talks to Timon about his new book, a history of Capitol Hill Baptist. 

Show Notes:

Purchase A Light on the Hill – https://www.amazon.com/Light-Hill-Surprising-Influenced-Evangelicalism/dp/1433592894/?tag=thegospcoal-20

Caleb Morell is a historian and assistant pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC. He completed his Master of Divinity at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and is currently a doctoral student in historical theology at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City, Missouri and an Associate of Newton House, Oxford.

Learn more about Caleb Morell's work:

https://x.com/calebmorell

https://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/about-us/leadership-staff/member/1527259/

––––––

Follow American Reformer across Social Media:

X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/

YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer

Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer

Website – https://americanreformer.org/

Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer:

https://americanreformer.org/donate/

Follow Us on Twitter:

Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness

Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline

The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings.

Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer"

Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/

Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347

Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5

The editorial team discusses the meaning and impact of the assassination of Charlie Kirk and what the right needs to do going forward. 

Timon Cline is the Editor-in-chief of American Reformer. Prior to his appointment as editor-in-chief, he was a deputy attorney general in the Office of the New Jersey Attorney General. He is a graduate of Rutgers Law School and Westminster Theological Seminary, the Director of Scholarly Initiatives at the Hale Institute at New Saint Andrews College, a fellow at the Craig Center at Westminster Theological Seminary, and an opinion contributor at World. His writing has appeared at American Mind, the American Conservative, and Modern Reformation, among others. He is a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and lives in Philadelphia with his wife and son.

https://americanreformer.org/about/

Mike Sabo is a Contributing Editor of American Reformer and an Assistant Editor of The American Mind, the online journal of the Claremont Institute. His writing has appeared at RealClearPolitics, The Federalist, Public Discourse, and American Greatness, among other outlets. He lives with his wife and son in Cincinnati.

https://americanreformer.org/author/mike-sabo/

Ben R. Crenshaw is a Visiting Assistant Professor at the Declaration of Independence Center at the University of Mississippi. He is a Ph.D. candidate in Politics at the Van Andel Graduate School of Statesmanship at Hillsdale College. You can follow him on X at @benrcrenshaw.

https://americanreformer.org/author/bencrenshaw/

https://gradschool.hillsdale.edu/Profiles/Benjamin-Crenshaw/

––––––

Follow American Reformer across Social Media:

X / Twitter – https://www.twitter.com/amreformer

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/AmericanReformer/

YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/@AmericanReformer

Rumble – https://rumble.com/user/AmReformer

Website – https://americanreformer.org/

Promote a vigorous Christian approach to the cultural challenges of our day, by donating to The American Reformer:

https://americanreformer.org/donate/

Follow Us on Twitter:

Josh Abbotoy – https://twitter.com/Byzness

Timon Cline – https://twitter.com/tlloydcline

The American Reformer Podcast is  hosted by Josh Abbotoy and Timon Cline, recorded remotely in the United States, and edited by Jared Cummings.

Subscribe to our Podcast, "The American Reformer"

Get our RSS Feed – https://americanreformerpodcast.podbean.com/

Apple Podcasts – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-reformer-podcast/id1677193347

Spotify – https://open.spotify.com/show/1V2dH5vhfogPIv0X8ux9Gm?si=a19db9dc271c4ce5