Our Public Lands

In this episode of the podcast, I speak with author Nate Schweber about the life and activism of Bernard and Avis DeVoto. Nate is the author of ‘This America of Ours.’ He shares insights into DeVoto’s work as a journalist, historian, and public lands advocate. Our conversation delves into Bernard’s early years and the profound impact growing up in Utah had on his advocacy for public lands. We discuss Bernard’s journey into becoming a leading voice against the privatization of public lands during the 1940s and 1950s, including his pivotal role in exposing a major land grab plot orchestrated by powerful livestock interests and political figures like Senator Pat McCarran and Joseph McCarthy. Nate also discusses the enduring partnership between Bernard and his wife, Avis, highlighting her critical role in his work and her later collaboration with Julia Child. Nate underscores the ongoing relevance of the DeVoto’s fight for public lands in today’s political climate, drawing parallels between past and present challenges.

The DeVoto Dry Martini

3.7 parts gin

1 part dry vermouth

Mix in pitcher of ice or cocktail shakes

Twist of lemon only (no olives! Bernard hated olives…)

01:29 Discussion on Bernard and Avis Devoto

04:05 Nate’s Background and Connection to the West

06:04 Early Memories and Love for Public Lands

10:52 Bernard Devoto’s Early Years and Activism

13:29 The 1946 Road Trip and Discovery of the Land Grab Plot

21:35 The Role of Livestock Industry and Pat McCarran

31:00 Modern Parallels and Ongoing Public Lands Issues

34:10 Public Lands and Privatization

34:55 Political Shifts in Public Lands

38:19 Bernard Devoto’s Activism

38:51 The Land Grab Plot Evolution

40:18 Devoto’s Fight Against Dams

43:41 Devoto’s Later Years and Legacy

54:15 The Devoto-Child Connection

01:02:53 Reflections on Public Lands

In this episode, I share a presentation by avian ecologist Lindsay Adrian of the American Bird Conservancy from the 2025 Bird Alliance of Oregon Marbled Murrelet Survey event. Lindsay discusses the unique biology and conservation challenges of the marbled murrelet, a federally listed seabird that nests in old-growth forests along the Pacific Coast. The presentation highlights the impact of the Northwest Forest Plan on murrelet populations, ongoing threats to their habitat, and the effectiveness of survey methods. Lindsay also emphasizes the importance of public awareness and engagement, detailing the ‘Crumb Clean’ initiative designed to mitigate predator impacts on murrelet nests.

Stay tuned for the 2026 Survey!

00:57 Presentation Overview: Marbled Murrelet

04:54 Life History and Habitat of Marbled Murrelet

14:37 Challenges and Conservation Efforts

35:06 Field Survey and Identification Tips.

In this episode, I interview Scott Silver, about the transformation of outdoor recreation and its impact on wilderness preservation and “little w” wilderness values. The discussion explores the formation and mission of Wild Wilderness, an organization committed to protecting undeveloped recreation on public lands. We cover insights into the development of the 'Fee Demo' program, commercialization and privatization of public lands, the American Recreation Coalition, and corporate influence on recreational policies. Scott discusses transcendence through primitive recreation and highlights the threats posed by modern recreation trends and technologies. The impact of libertarian economics, the co-opting of environmental movements, and the decline of genuine conservation efforts are also examined. Our conversation concludes with reflections on the evolving role of wilderness in society and the broader implications for environmental conservation.

A must read and one of my favorite books! Battle for the Wilderness by Michael Frome

03:09 The Rise of Motorized Recreation

07:43 Formation and Mission of Wild Wilderness

12:04 The Fee Demo Program and Its Implications

16:58 The Influence of the American Recreation Coalition

26:47 Battles Over Motorized Recreation

36:06 The Role of Wilderness Values in Recreation

45:39 Handmade Outdoor Gear

46:21 The Value of Primitive Recreation

46:48 Personal Connection to Nature

48:29 Transcendence Through Wilderness

52:17 The Impact of Fees on Outdoor Recreation

01:01:28 The Future of Wilderness Access?

01:16:20 The War on Climate Change

In this episode, I interview Jimmy Tobias and Mark Olalde about their investigative series on public lands grazing featured in High Country News and ProPublica. They discuss their research methods, findings on political influence, economic implications, subsidies, and environmental impacts of grazing. Our conversation also covers billionaire and other high-profile ranchers such as large mining companies, as well as federal initiatives to boost the federal grazing program on public lands.

04:23 Guest Introductions

06:33 The Genesis of the Grazing Investigation

08:13 Economic and Political Influence in Public Lands Grazing

11:31 High-Profile Ranchers and Mining Companies

18:30 Federal Employees and Permit Violations

20:25 USDA’s Plan and the Reality of Public Lands Grazing

24:34 Food Security and Federal Public Lands Ranching

25:31 Land Health Assessments and Environmental Reviews

26:36 Perspectives on Grazing Permits and Flexibility

29:48 Economic and Political Influences on Public Lands Ranching

35:57 Field Observations and Ecological Impacts

Mark’s ProPublica Author Page

https://www.propublica.org/article/grazing-environment-public-lands-oversight

https://www.propublica.org/article/grazing-environment-public-lands-oversight

https://www.propublica.org/article/grazing-ranchers-public-lands-trump

In this episode, I speak with Josh Schlossberg of the Eco Integrity Alliance about what he calls the largest logging project in Colorado’s history—roughly half a million acres of planned industrial logging. The proposal is divided into four contiguous projects along the Front Range, with the newest, the Pikes Peak Vegetation Management Project, covering 200,000 acres on its own.

The plan includes about 14,000 acres of logging inside four protected roadless areas and nearly a quarter-million acres of herbicide applications across the Pike and San Isabel National Forests. Taken together, these four projects would subject nearly the entire north–south stretch of the Front Range to extensive “vegetation management” ie logging.

Large-scale “wildfire emergency” logging was first authorized under President Biden and later expanded under Trump to most areas of our national forests outside wilderness, parks, and a few other exceptions.

02:06 The State of Land Management and Political Dynamics

08:06 The Role of Substack in Environmental Advocacy

11:34 Colorado’s Logging Projects and Their Implications

12:45 The Broader Impact of Logging on Public Lands

13:40 The Controversy and Consequences of Current Practices

46:04 Media’s Role in Wildfire Reporting

46:50 Zooming Out: The Bigger Picture of Wildfires

48:37 Colorado Smoke Screen: Exposing Coverup

49:48 The Clear Cut Cult

01:09:22 Grassroots Advocacy and Media Accountability

01:17:29 Final Thoughts and Future Projects

https://eco-integrityalliance.org/

Contact Josh: [email protected]

In this episode, I speak with Thomas Welch, retired pediatrician, Adirondack guide and amateur historian about early Adirondack history.

Thomas discusses key historical events like the 1837 ascent of Mount Marcy led by meteorologist William Redfield and notable figures such as Verplanck Colvin, who mapped and surveyed the Adirondacks in the late 1800s, and Bob Marshall, a pioneer in wilderness preservation. The conversation highlights conservation efforts, and the significance of the Adirondacks to early American history. Thomas reflects on his personal connection to the region and the sense of solitude and beauty it provides, emphasizing the importance of maintaining these wilderness areas for the residents of New York State and all of its visitors.

02:11 Adirondack History and Preservation

03:54 Early Exploration and Scientific Expeditions

16:26 Verplanck Colvin’s Comprehensive Survey

26:29 Bob Marshall and Wilderness Appreciation

31:20 Teddy Roosevelt’s Historic Visit

34:07 Modern Reflections and Personal Stories

40:24 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In this episode of the podcast, I interview George Wuerthner, ecologist, author and president of the Gallatin Yellowstone Wilderness Alliance. An organization dedicated to restoring and protecting the Northern Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem with a particular focus on the Gallatin Range north of Bozeman, Montana.

George and I have a detailed discussion about the Gallatin Forest Partnership proposal and its impact on roadless land protection. Our conversation highlights key issues such as the flawed science behind current forest management practices, the ecological importance of the Gallatin Range, and the high recreational pressures due to increasing population and advancing technologies. We critique the Gallatin Forest Partnership’s plan, emphasizing the need for stronger wilderness designations to maintain wildlife habitats and mitigate human impacts. Historical perspectives on conservation legislation are shared, along with the importance of public advocacy and the need for coordinated efforts to seize future political opportunities for better environmental protections in the Gallatins.

01:17 Gallatin Forest Partnership Proposal Discussion

01:54 Historical Perspectives and Future Focus

05:17 Detailed Analysis of Forest Management Practices

08:22 Wildlife and Ecological Importance of the Gallatin Range

14:02 Challenges and Controversies in Conservation Efforts

19:40 Impact of Human Activities on Wildlife

24:55 Fire Management and Its Implications

38:43 Gallatin Forest Partnership’s Proposal and Critique

45:24 Organizational Dynamics and Conservation Strategies

49:48 Conservation Groups and Political Compromises

51:01 Advocacy and Accountability in Conservation

53:33 Recreation Pressures on the Gallatin Range

55:19 Population Growth and Recreational Impact

58:07 Technological Advances in Recreation

59:52 Cumulative Impacts and Wilderness Designation

01:02:17 The Importance of Wilderness and Natural Selection

01:11:57 Legislation and Conservation Opportunities

01:26:55 Advocacy Strategies and Public Engagement

01:29:29 Conclusion and Call to Action

In this episode, I speak with Kyle Lavin, a conservationist and wilderness and wildlife advocate from Bozeman, Montana. We talk about Kyle’s experiences growing up in Pinedale Wyoming and his strong ties to the wilderness areas of Montana and Wyoming. We discuss the significant changes in Pinedale and Jackson Hole, Wyoming over the years, from childhood memories to the impacts of natural gas production. Kyle and I discuss personal wildlife encounters, including rare sightings of wolverines in the Wind River Range, and the lasting impact of these experiences. We move on to discuss the challenges faced in conserving Montana’s Gallatin Range amidst increasing recreational use and the pressures of population growth.

00:57 Interview with Kyle Lavin: Conservation and Wilderness

01:36 The Gallatin Range: Conservation Challenges

04:08 Montana’s Changing Landscape and Celebrity Residents

14:00 Growing Up in Pinedale, Wyoming

22:49 Impact of Natural Gas Production in Wyoming

31:32 The Influence of Social Media on Wilderness Areas

35:01 The Impact of Social Media on Nature

35:34 Wolverine Encounters in the Wilderness

40:29 Moving to Bozeman for Love and Nature

45:28 Exploring the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem

50:25 Conservation Concerns in the Gallatin Range

01:03:59 The Importance of Protecting Wilderness Areas

01:06:58 Final Thoughts and Reflections

In this episode, I speak with journalist Gloria Liu about her recent article on National Parks in RE:PUBLIC and Outside Magazine, her career trajectory, and the significance of long-form journalism. We delve into the condition of national parks, the impact of staffing shortages, and the Trump administration’s approach to public lands. Gloria shares insights from her reporting trips, discussing the intrinsic value of preserving wild places for future generations. Highlights include her firsthand experiences in Yosemite, the role of park concessioners, and the dedication of park service employees to their mission.

00:22 Challenges of Long-Form Journalism

01:32 Popular Long-Form Pieces

04:15 Career Journey into Journalism

05:43 The Craft and Impact of Journalism

07:26 Story Development and Inspiration

09:45 National Parks Under Threat

12:12 The Reality of Park Management

20:32 Staffing Challenges in National Parks

23:31 Future Implications for National Parks

29:40 Legal Challenges Against Government Employee Reductions

30:36 Privatization and Concessioners in National Parks

32:29 Issues with Concessioners: The Case of Yosemite

36:46 The Role and Passion of Park Rangers

40:05 Economic Value vs. Intrinsic Value of Public Lands

44:14 Exploring the Wilderness of Yosemite

47:05 Legislation and Protection of National Parks

48:42 Connecting with Park Service Employees

50:35 The Dedication of Park Service Employees

52:36 The Importance of Public Lands

56:00 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In this episode, I speak with Jennifer Mamola of the John Muir Project and Josh Osher of Western Watersheds Project about the Fix Our Forests Act (FOFA), its implications, and the actions needed to prevent its passage. Our conversation delves deeply into various aspects of the bill, including its potential impact on public lands, logging, vegetation treatments, endangered species, judicial review, and grazing policies. Concerns are raised about the bill’s risk to ecosystem integrity and public transparency. Josh and Jenn also outline actions for the public to take, emphasizing the importance of calling senators and representatives to oppose the bill.

Call to oppose the Fix Our Forests Act! Senate switchboard → (202) 224-3121

John Muir Project FOFA Action Alert

Western Watersheds Project FOFA Action Alert

Click to see who supports this dog-pile of a bill… https://www.curtis.senate.gov/press-releases/what-they-are-saying-dozens-of-leaders-applaud-fix-our-forests-act/

00:39 Funding Amendments and Judicial Review

01:54 Private Sector Involvement and Public Oversight

02:34 Statute of Limitations and Categorical Exclusions

05:05 Opposition and Ecological Concerns

08:50 Fire Management and Public Lands

14:54 Grazing as a Fire Management Tool

19:58 Amendments and Legislative Efforts

23:55 Historical Context and Political Dynamics

37:30 Public Participation and Judicial Review

38:47 Concerns Over Public Lands and FOFA

40:40 Categorical Exclusions Explained

42:37 The Absurdity of Large-Scale Logging Projects

50:43 Judicial Review and Preliminary Injunctions

01:01:00 Grazing and Its Environmental Impact

01:08:01 Call to Action: Opposing FOFA