This week on Outrage + Optimism, we’re taking a breath.

After two intense weeks of daily updates from COP30 in Belém, we’re returning to weekly programming with something different - a slower, deeper, more reflective conversation that felt too valuable to cut.

While in the Blue Zone, we sat down with Kim Stanley Robinson, the acclaimed author of The Ministry for the Future, 2312, The Mars trilogy, and the Science in the Capital series. His writing has been read by negotiators, ministers, campaigners, and many of you.

In our conversation, Kim Stanley Robinson reflects on why The Ministry for the Future begins with such a devastating opening chapter, a “punch in the gut” designed to reveal the human limits of adaptation. He introduces the idea of “pre-traumatic syndrome,” the unsettling clarity that comes from imagining a catastrophe before it happens, and how this can motivate us rather than paralyse us. We explore storytelling as a cultural tool for moving from despair to determination, and why each of us needs a a unifying purpose that gives shape to our actions in a chaotic world.

At a COP defined by urgency, exhaustion, and flashes of courage, this wide-ranging conversation with Kim Stanley Robinson felt like a necessary exhale, a moment to step back and reflect on why we do this work, and what kind of future we’re choosing to build.

We’re airing the conversation almost exactly as it happened.

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Series Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks

Planning Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan

Edited by: Miles Martignoni

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is our final episode of Inside COP. For two weeks we’ve tried to bring you as close as possible to the heart of COP30 - the pace, the pressure, the progress, and the perspectives of those working inside and around the process.

The closing plenary on Saturday began amid unexpected tension. Already running a day behind schedule, the Presidency moved to adopt the final text, but proceedings were paused following questions over whether all interventions had been properly registered. What followed were hours of clarification, consultation and procedural back-and-forth, underscoring concerns among many developing countries who had negotiated through the night to secure their priorities.

In this episode, Christiana Figueres, Tom Rivett-Carnac and Paul Dickinson examine how the final day unfolded, what was agreed, and what it might mean.

But this COP was never just about negotiation. Beyond the formal process, we explore what COP30 revealed about wider trends: shifting clean-energy economics, accelerating deployment across regions, and emerging signs of how the decline of fossil fuels is beginning to influence global decision-making.

🎤 What do you want to hear on Outrage + Optimism? Ask us on SpeakPipe or on our socials where you can also see more behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:

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Lead Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks

Planning Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan

Edited by: Miles Martignoni

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We recorded this episode across Friday afternoon and deep into the evening inside the Blue Zone at COP30. At the time of publishing, there is still no final deal. The negotiations are ongoing, positions are shifting, and the outcome remains uncertain. We know that by the time you listen, some of what we heard today may already have changed, but we decided there was value in sharing the day with you. 

This episode is meant as a time capsule.

We wanted to bring you inside the atmosphere of a COP Friday: the outrage, the optimism, the urgency, and the sheer human effort that goes into trying to land a deal. 

Rather than wait for the dust to settle, we spoke to the people living this moment. City leaders. Climate diplomats. Ministers from the front lines. Seasoned negotiators who’ve been in this process for decades. Activists still fighting for the best possible outcome for the planet. Their perspectives were captured as they were living this day, not in hindsight.

This episode captures the feeling of a COP Friday: the confusion, the determination, the fear of losing ambition, and the belief, still alive in many corners, that progress is possible if countries choose it.

With thanks to those who spoke with us:

⁠Eric Garcetti, former US Ambassador to India and former mayor of LA 

Mark Watts, CEO of C40

⁠Matt Webb, Associate Director for Global Clean Power Diplomacy, E3G

Gustavo Pinheiro, Senior Associate, E3G

⁠Irene Velez Torres, Colombian Minister for Environment and Sustainable Development and head of the Colombian delegation

⁠Dr. Antwi-Boasiako Amoah, Ghanian Negotiator and incoming head of Africa Group of Negotiators (AGN)

Giovanni Maurice Pradipta, Foundation for Sustainability 

🎤 What do you want to hear on Inside COP? Ask us on SpeakPipe or on our socials where you can also see more behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:

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Produced and edited by: Caitlin Hanrahan and Ben Weaver-Hincks

Additional editing by: Miles Martignoni

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It’s Friday morning in Belém and COP30 is moving fast. After yesterday’s fire and the overnight closure of the venue, the Brazilian Presidency worked through the night and released a new draft text early this morning. It has immediately triggered significant pushback.

In this emergency episode the team talks through what changed overnight, and why so many countries are unhappy. Christiana Figueres highlights how the new text removes the roadmaps for transitioning away from fossil fuels and for halting deforestation, and why that has triggered such a strong response.

The mood on the ground has shifted. Delegates are back after the disruption yesterday, rested just enough to be energised, and preparing to make their views known in plenary. The Presidency now has to listen, absorb, and decide how far it can move.

This is our Friday morning take on a rapidly changing situation, the snapshot before whatever comes next. Follow us on social media across the day for real time updates from Belém.

Instagram @outrageoptimism

LinkedIn @outrageoptimism

Learn more:

📣 Read the latest draft of the Political Package

🧩 Use this helpful cheatsheet on how to read a COP text

🌍 Check out the official COP30 website for background and announcements

🎤 What do you want to hear on Inside COP? Ask us on SpeakPipe or on our socials where you can also see more behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:

Instagram @outrageoptimism

LinkedIn @outrageoptimism

Or via this form.

Lead Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks

Planning Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan

Edited by: Miles Martignoni

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today was not meant to be this episode.

At around 2pm local time, a fire broke out near the country pavilions, triggering the full evacuation of the Blue Zone. 

As COP30 entered its final stretch, we’d planned to bring you an update on the negotiations, and to share some of the many extraordinary stories of progress and perseverance that surface here every single day.

As of Thursday evening, the fire has been contained, and we understand there were no serious injuries. But there is shock, and there will be aftershocks, for those who were inside the venue. And there is now a heavy burden on the Presidency and the teams working behind the scenes to stabilise and steer the summit through the hours ahead.

For many, today has been a humbling reminder of how quickly the unexpected can unfold. But despite a difficult day, negotiations continue.  And yet, despite an already difficult day, and despite the exhaustion of negotiators who have now been here for weeks, the work continues.

In this episode, we reflect on what unfolded inside the venue.  But we also look beyond it to the incredibly important work that still must be done at COP30, and to what we are collectively called upon to deliver.

This episode includes eyewitness testimonies from Beatriz Beccari Barreto (CDR30 Pavilion), and members of our team

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Or via this form.

Lead Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks

Planning Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan

Edited by: Miles Martignoni

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We’re approaching crunch time in Belém, and a long-running COP30 saga may finally have found its landing spot. After days of rumour, diplomacy and thunderous rainforest downpours, the question of who will host COP31 looks close to being resolved - and it all plays out over the course of our day’s recording.

Paul Dickinson and Fiona McRaith trace the twists of the Australia-Turkey negotiations in real time, with insight from former UN diplomat Dean Bialek. Plus, we hear from political journalist Thais Bilenky on the domestic pressures shaping Lula’s approach, as the Brazilian president personally steps in to break the deadlock.

Across the day, the team also dives into one of the summit’s biggest sticking points: CBAM, the Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism. In a wide-ranging conversation, the EU’s Teresa Ribera lays out why Brussels sees CBAM as essential for true decarbonisation - but why it’s sparking concern among countries who fear they’ll be penalised while still industrialising.

Then it’s over to the Action Agenda, with Dan Ioschpe and Jennie Dodson giving a ground-level view of how coalitions, companies and cities are reshaping the COP’s centre of gravity - from regenerative landscapes in Brazil to global momentum across grids, food systems and industry.

Finally, as we’re packing up the mics, news of COP31 appears to land. What does this unusual arrangement mean? What happens to the long-promised Pacific Island leadership? And what will it take for next year’s COP to deliver on the ambition so many hoped this decision would unlock?

Learn more:

📣 Read the latest reports about the COP31 host and Presidency

⚙️ Dive into the nuts and bolts of the EU’s CBAM

🧩 Explore the 6 pillars and 30 objectives of the COP30 Action Agenda

🌍 Check out the official COP30 website for background and announcements

🎤 What do you want to hear on Inside COP? Ask us on SpeakPipe or on our socials where you can also see more behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:

Instagram @outrageoptimism

LinkedIn @outrageoptimism

Or via this form.

Lead Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks

Planning Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan

Edited by: Miles Martignoni

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It’s the middle of week two at COP30, and the negotiations are entering their crunch phase. A draft cover text has finally landed, ministers are on the ground, and the presidency is pushing hard to close before Lula heads to the G20 in Johannesburg.

Paul Dickinson and Fiona McRaith look at the issues still holding up progress - from finance and adaptation to trade, the global stocktake, and the long-running debate over fossil fuel language. Plus, Germany’s former climate envoy Jennifer Morgan joins the show with a clear-eyed read of where things stand, what’s moving, what isn’t, and how the presidency is trying to break the deadlock. 

But beyond the blue zone drama, real shifts are already reshaping the global transition. And nowhere is this more obvious (and more significant) than in the world’s two most populous countries:

On China, Professor Wang Yi , senior adviser to the Chinese government on climate change, outlines how rising energy demand is increasingly being met by renewables and new energy sources, why emissions may already have plateaued, and how the world’s largest solar exporter thinks about “steering” the clean economy without dramatic rhetoric.

And on India, Dr Arunabha Ghosh describes a “pentathlon” transition, sets out India’s avoided coal build-out, and explains why diversified supply chains will determine whether global deployment accelerates or stalls.

Whatever happens in Belém this week, the direction of travel from China, India and other rising economies will be impossible to ignore. But can the text on the page match the momentum gathering pace in the real world?

Learn more:

🔍 Read the COP30 Draft Cover Text

📖 Learn more about India's Local Grids to Global Power report, announced by Dr Arunabha Ghosh

🌍 Check out the official COP30 website for background and announcements

🎤 What do you want to hear on Inside COP? Ask us on SpeakPipe or on our socials where you can also see more behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:

Instagram @outrageoptimism

LinkedIn @outrageoptimism

Or via this form.

Lead Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks

Planning Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan

Edited by: Miles Martignoni

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It’s getting hot in the COP.

Executive Secretary Simon Stiell turned up the pressure in Belém on Monday, sharpening his message as ministers arrived for what is often the most charged phase of the summit. He called for no more tactical delays, and no more dancing around the hardest issues. 

And Pope Leo XIV weighed in with an appeal to moral responsibility and global solidarity.

Fiona McRaith and Paul Dickenson break down what these dual interventions signal for the state of play at COP30, as key sticking points emerge for negotiators.

And: a major milestone in the global energy transition. South Korea has joined the Powering Past Coal Alliance and committed to phasing out coal by 2040. Paul speaks with Joojin Kim of Solutions for Our Climate to unpack what pushed a G20 economy to move and why Korean industry now sees clean power as its competitive future.

Finally, Christiana sits down with Minister Sonia Guajajara, Brazil’s Minister for Indigenous Peoples, for a powerful conversation about Indigenous diplomacy, forest protection, and why this COP marks a historic shift in global recognition of Indigenous leadership.

Learn more:

⛏ Mine more information about the Powering Past Coal Alliance

🌍 Check out the official COP30 website for background and announcements

🎤 What do you want to hear on Inside COP? Ask us on SpeakPipe or on our socials where you can also see more behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:

Instagram @outrageoptimism

LinkedIn @outrageoptimism

Or via this form.

Lead Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks

Planning Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan

Edited by: Miles Martignoni

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

As ministers arrive in Belém for the crucial second week of COP30, forests move from the backdrop of the summit to the main stage. Protests began at dawn on Friday and have continued through the weekend - among them, several activists carried a giant Brazilian flag, emblazoned with the words “Amazȏnia Protegida” (“Protected Amazon”).

From the streets outside to the plenary halls in the Blue Zone, trees, land and Indigenous stewardship are shaping this summit’s conversation. In this episode, Paul Dickinson and Fiona McRaith dig into this moment of forest urgency and turn their attention to one of the biggest themes of the COP30 Action Agenda: protecting these crucial ecosystems, carbon sinks and centres of cultural and biodiversity.

Paul speaks with some of those behind the Race to Belém initiative - a real-world case study in how one Brazilian state, Tocantins, is rewriting the rules of forest protection. We hear Christiana Figueres speak to Mindahi Bastida about what genuine stewardship means and why so many Indigenous communities are the best equipped to care for their native lands. And Fiona reports to us from a project in the Amazon rainforest itself, where she met local producers building a sustainable bio-economy from the forest’s living wealth.

The Brazilians have brought the world to the Amazon and put forests at the heart of this COP. What will be the legacy of COP30 for the forests of Brazil and beyond, that so desperately need protecting?

Learn more:

🌴 Read about the Tropical Forests Forever Facility

📊 Explore the Forest Declaration Assessment and its 2025 report

🌍 Check out the official COP30 website for background and announcements

🎤 What do you want to hear on Inside COP? Ask us on SpeakPipe or on our socials where you can also see more behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:

Instagram @outrageoptimism

LinkedIn @outrageoptimism

Or via this form.

Lead Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks

Planning Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan

Edited by: Miles Martignoni

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It’s the mid-point of COP30 and all four of our hosts have gathered in Belém to take stock.

In the Blue Zone, the mood is its usual blend of high-stakes and surreal. The Presidency is calling its consultations a “collective therapy session,” China would prefer “massage and yoga,” and delegates are deep in the weeds of the Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism.

To sift the signal from the noise, Christiana Figueres, Tom Rivett-Carnac, Paul Dickinson and Fiona McRaith take on the questions listeners keep asking. Why are there so many fossil fuel lobbyists here? Do recent host country venue choices undermine the process? And does the Amazon road story point to a deeper hypocrisy? The team dig into the numbers, assumptions and stories shaping public distrust and legitimate concern.

Then: what connects the Protestant Reformation, Agora of Athens and the No Kings Movement? Yes, it’s Vice President Al Gore.

In an expansive discussion that charts where we are now and how we got here, the former VP offers a wide angle diagnosis of the forces that have polarised climate politics in his own country - from decades of fossil-fuel-funded disinformation to the shockwave of Citizens United - and explains why linking climate to public health, backed by real-time emissions data, could transform global accountability.

Learn more:

🛰️ Explore the Climate TRACE tool, and track emissions worldwide

📰 Read reports mentioned in this episode about the presence of fossil fuel lobbyists at COP30

🌍 Check out the official COP30 website for background and announcements

🎤 What do you want to hear on Inside COP? Ask us on SpeakPipe or on our socials where you can also see more behind the scenes moments and to watch our videos:

Instagram @outrageoptimism

LinkedIn @outrageoptimism

Or via this form.

Lead Producer: Ben Weaver-Hincks

Planning Producer: Caitlin Hanrahan

Edited by: Miles Martignoni

Exec Producer: Ellie Clifford

With thanks to Groundswell and Global Optimism.

This is a Persephonica production for Global Optimism and is part of the Acast Creator Network.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.