In this episode, Uzair talks to Dr. Hussain Nadim about reforming institutions in Pakistan, why bureaucrats still use fax to send documents, and how data can be used to better inform policy.

We also discussed the evolving situation in Afghanistan towards the tail end of the episode, where Dr. Nadim shared his views on Pakistan's role in the region and what may happen next.

Dr. Nadim's reading recommendations are:

- The Conference of the Birds by Attar of Nishapur

- The Tragedy of Power by Ian Withrow

- Avoiding Armageddon : America, India and Pakistan to the Brink and Back by Bruce Riedel

- Directorate S by Steve Coll

- Fighting to the End: The Pakistan Army's Way of War by C. Christine Fair