Hello there! I’m Joy Suzanne Hunt, and this is the Pastors and Money Podcast.

I wanted to hop on really quick to let you know that we’re taking a short break from the podcast. I’m using this time to pray over and set vision for the new year and for our next podcast season.

We’ll be back in April with conversations to help you thrive in your ministry and finances.

In the meantime, if you’re looking for content, I’d love for you to go back and listen to any episodes you might have missed. You can find our entire backlist in your favorite podcast app or over at pastorsandmoney.com. You can also follow me on social media @debtfreejoy for financial tips and encouragement.

And make sure you’re subscribed so you’ll get notified when the new season drops in April.

Thanks for being part of this community. I’m excited about what God has in store for us this year, and I can’t wait to share it with you.

Talk to you soon!

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps us get the word out and invite more people into these conversations.

Connect with Pastors & Money

Email: [email protected]

Instagram/Facebook: @pastorsandmoney

Website: pastorsandmoney.com/podcast

The Pastors & Money Podcast helps pastors, ministry leaders, and churches start thriving financially using money as a tool to fuel God's mission in our churches and families.

Want to be a guest on Pastors & Money Podcast? Send Joy Hunt a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/pastorsandmoney

Is it selfish for pastors to focus on their own financial future? What if prioritizing your financial freedom is actually the most biblical thing you can do for your ministry?

In this powerful conversation with Dr. Nicholas Michels—financial strategist, bestselling author, and founder of Michels Family Financial—we tackle the guilt and stigma that keep ministry leaders from achieving financial freedom. Dr. Nick shares his personal journey from witnessing financial devastation in his childhood home to helping his own mother rebuild her life, and how his brother’s experience as a pastor opened his eyes to the unique financial challenges ministry families face.

Discover why financial stress destroys marriages, how to create a vision statement that transforms your relationship with your spouse, and why “outwardly successful but inwardly stressed” describes so many ministry leaders. Dr. Nick explains the “mastermind effect” in marriage, shares the practical steps to get on the same page financially, and reveals why the Bible is the greatest success money book ever written.

This episode will change how you think about money, stewardship, and what it means to serve well in ministry.

Read the full transcript.

• Why pastors shouldn’t feel guilty about prioritizing their finances (and how it strengthens ministry)
• How childhood money experiences shape your current financial decisions
• The vision statement exercise that saved Dr. Nick’s marriage and transformed his finances
• Why being “outwardly successful but inwardly stressed” is so common in ministry
• How to get on the same page financially with your spouse (even if one person handles the money)
• The “mastermind effect” happens when two minds work toward one financial goal
• Why financial freedom deepens your relationship with God instead of replacing trust
• Practical daily activities that lead to financial peace and confidence
• How to use your financial struggles as a powerful ministry testimony

“If you have a church and you’re teaching the good news and all of a sudden your finances go south and you don’t have a church anymore because of that, how are you gonna teach people the good news? So prioritizing finance is absolutely important. It doesn’t make you selfish.” – Dr. Nicholas Michels

“You don’t take money with you, but you take the hearts and souls of those you lead to Christ with you.” – Dr. Nicholas Michels (quoting his client Donnie)

“When you’re having money problems, money sucks the joy out of every aspect of your life, every category.” – Dr. Nicholas Michels

“My happiness wasn’t going up ’cause we weren’t doing it together and that was my fault.” – Dr. Nicholas Michels

“I just want to know that we’re in this together.” – Dr. Nick’s wife (the turning point conversation)

“Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. If you’re not aligned on where the treasure is, then you’re not aligned in terms of your hearts.” – Joy Suzanne Hunt

“It wasn’t like ‘I’m not trusting God ’cause I’m working on this.’ Me and God are working on this together.” – Joy Suzanne Hunt

“Happiness is on the other side of resiliency.” – Dr. Nicholas Michels

“The Bible’s the greatest success money book ever written. All the great advice out there from Dave Ramsey to Warren Buffett can be found in the Bible.” – Dr. Nicholas Michels

Dr. Nicholas E. Michels is a financial strategist, bestselling author, and founder of Michels Family Financial. What makes Dr. Nick unique is his personal journey from financial hardship in a broken home to financial freedom and his passion for helping people, including ministry leaders, overcome the guilt and stigma around managing money well. With his brother serving as a pastor, Nick understands the unique financial challenges that ministry families face and believes that being a good steward of your finances isn’t selfish—it’s biblical. His book, “Rich by Choice,” teaches people not just how to become wealthy, but how to be rich in faith, relationships, and life experiences.

• Rich by Choice (book by Dr. Nicholas Michels)
• Free Gift: The Power of Compounding Chapter – Get your free chapter at www.richbychoicebook.com
• Michels Family Financial
• The Vision Statement Exercise (detailed in Rich by Choice)
• The Rocking Chair Test – Looking back at 110 years old, what makes a great life?
• John Templeton Sr.’s quote: “Anything you do can be your ministry.”
• Jeremiah 29:11 – “For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord.”

1. Grab 10 pieces of paper and find a quiet area
2. Take 45 minutes and write out EVERYTHING you want to accomplish in life
3. Be specific – not just “I want to retire” but what does Tuesday afternoon look like when you’re retired?
4. Cover all areas: faith, personal growth, relationships, family, ministry goals
5. Do this separately with your spouse, then come together
6. Go back through and circle what’s REALLY important (not just nice to have)
7. From there, create the exact money strategies to get you there

• Make it a date day – get a babysitter and put it on the calendar
• Schedule financial conversations several times a year
• Have one person do the budget rough draft, and the other make adjustments
• Both should be involved, even if roles are different
• Ask about each expense: “Is this getting us where we want to be? Bringing us joy? Bringing us peace?”

• Budgeting
• Automation
• Giving
• Investing
• Saving
• Regular communication with your spouse

• Website: www.richbychoicebook.com
• Get your free “Power of Compounding” chapter at the website (click “Free Gift” in the header)

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps us get the word out and invite more people into these conversations.

Connect with Pastors & Money

Email: [email protected]

Instagram/Facebook: @pastorsandmoney

Website: pastorsandmoney.com/podcast

The Pastors & Money Podcast helps pastors, ministry leaders, and churches start thriving financially using money as a tool to fuel God's mission in our churches and families.

Want to be a guest on Pastors & Money Podcast? Send Joy Hunt a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/pastorsandmoney

What if the money struggles you’re facing today aren’t really about your budget—but about patterns passed down from your parents and grandparents? In this powerful conversation with Andy Yoder, Ramsey Preferred Financial Coach and former youth pastor, we explore how generational money habits shape our financial decisions and, more importantly, how to break free and pass better money habits to the next generation.

This post may contain affiliate links. They don’t cost you a penny, but they help provide a source of income for this site. For more information, please see our disclosures.

Andy shares his own journey from financial stress and credit card anxiety to peace and purpose, revealing how his transformation didn’t just change his marriage—it became a ministry. From parents who never talked about money to emotional spending that masks loneliness, Andy unpacks the hidden patterns that keep families trapped in unhealthy money cycles.

Read the Full Transcript.

Discover practical, age-appropriate ways to teach your kids about money, why your children are watching (even when you think they’re not), and how handling money well opens doors for the gospel. Whether your kids are toddlers or adults, it’s never too late to start building better money habits that will echo through generations.

• How generational money patterns get passed down (and how to recognize them in your own life)
• Why financial stress affects every area of life—marriage, parenting, and your relationship with God
• The power of testimony: How one mom in her 50s inspired her adult kids to make radical financial changes
• Practical ways to teach financial literacy in daily life (with real examples you can use today)
• Why money problems often reveal deeper needs for community, purpose, and connection
• How to include kids in family financial goals without overwhelming them
• The surprising connection between faithful money management and gospel witness
• Why pastors and ministry leaders struggle to talk about their own money challenges

“I thought it was too late, but they’re watching. And that was the, it’s the power of a testimony. It’s the power of a changed life.” – Andy Yoder

“You’re handling money well, that opens up the doors for the gospel to go forth… the way that I’m handling not my money, but God’s money is, could be a direct result of somebody coming to know Jesus for the first time.” – Andy Yoder

“They notice you have conversations about money that aren’t arguments. You know, they notice, oh, oh, there’s a budget meeting. They notice those things, and we don’t always think, but kids pick up on stuff.” – Joy Suzanne Hunt

“The most important decisions are the small ones. And that’s where you’re making one small decision at a time.” – Andy Yoder’s mentor

Andy Yoder is a Ramsey Preferred Financial Coach who spent years in youth ministry and as an associate pastor before discovering his calling to help families achieve generational financial transformation. After his own journey from financial anxiety to freedom (beginning in 2016-2017), Andy now specializes in helping individuals and couples—especially those in ministry—break free from generational money patterns and build better money habits. His heart for seeing kids stay connected to their faith naturally connects to his passion for helping parents pass on both spiritual and financial wisdom to the next generation.

• Dave Ramsey’s “The Total Money Makeover“
• Financial Peace University
• The Baby Steps

Teaching Moments to Try This Week:

• Use junk mail ads to discuss the real cost of financing purchases
• Give kids a budget at the fair or store and let them make spending decisions
• Include children in family financial goals with a vision board
• Divide allowance into three categories: give, save, spend
• Involve kids in Christmas shopping with a set budget per person
• Let teenagers participate in car shopping discussions (cash only!)

For Parents:

• Track your spending for one week—just observe without judgment
• Have one money conversation with your spouse that isn’t an argument
• Identify one money pattern from your childhood you’d like to change
• Find one trusted person to talk honestly about your financial challenges

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps us get the word out and invite more people into these conversations.

Connect with Pastors & Money

Email: [email protected]

Instagram/Facebook: @pastorsandmoney

Website: pastorsandmoney.com/podcast

The Pastors & Money Podcast helps pastors, ministry leaders, and churches start thriving financially using money as a tool to fuel God's mission in our churches and families.

Want to be a guest on Pastors & Money Podcast? Send Joy Hunt a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/pastorsandmoney

Looking for the Episode Transcript?

Is your church building sitting empty most of the week while your bills pile up? In this practical conversation with ministry consultant Loren Richmond, Jr., we explore how churches can transform their facilities from financial burdens into thriving community hubs.

Loren brings a unique perspective from his years as a pastor, food pantry director, and public housing coordinator. He shares seven creative strategies churches are using to generate revenue while genuinely serving their communities—from music centers and senior ministry programs to emergency response partnerships with utility companies.

Discover why the average church size has dropped from 130 to 65 people, how cultural shifts have changed community outreach, and most importantly—how to balance financial sustainability with your church’s mission of creating followers of Jesus. This episode is packed with practical ideas you can implement without losing sight of what matters most.

• Why churches need to rethink their building strategy in today’s financial and cultural climate
• How to transform your church building into a music center with lessons, recitals, and performances
• Creative ways to serve the growing senior adult population while generating sustainable revenue
• How to partner with utility companies for emergency response and crisis ministry
• The importance of accounting for true costs—even when donating space
• How to start slow and set proper boundaries to protect your church’s mission
• First steps to take: pray, survey needs, and assess your resources

“The normative size church is 65, so it’s half of what it was [20-30 years ago]. The giving levels just aren’t what they were… So like practically speaking, like the math just doesn’t work.” – Loren Richmond, Jr.

“Don’t lose track of what the main thing is… I believe we’re trying to create followers of Jesus here. That being said, find creative ways to engage with our neighbors and reach them where they’re at.” – Loren Richmond, Jr.

“We can’t just assume that even though we’re giving space to the Boys and Girls Club or the scouts, there’s a cost to that… It’s gonna be important for us to account for what that cost might be, whether it’s electricity, plumbing, water, wear and tear.” – Loren Richmond, Jr.

“You win when you show up. Sometimes showing up looks like making it to the coaching call even when you didn’t do your homework. Sometimes it looks like sitting down for the budget meeting with your spouse.” – Joy Suzanne Hunt

Loren Richmond, Jr. is a ministry consultant, pastor, chaplain, and nonprofit leader writing and speaking at the intersection of faith, culture, and church renewal. With more than a decade of leadership in churches and community nonprofits, Loren draws from a deep well of lived experience, both pastoral and practical.

He holds an M.Div from Phillips Theological Seminary and an MBA with a nonprofit emphasis from Hope International University. Loren has served in diverse roles from founding pastor to food pantry director to public housing coordinator. He is also the host of the Future Christian Podcast, where he interviews ministry leaders, scholars, and change makers to explore how historic faith can speak meaningfully today.

1. Music Center Ministry – Offers music lessons, hosts recitals and performances, utilizes existing instruments and skilled musicians on staff
2. Senior Adult Ministry Hub – Create socialization spaces, meal programs, and light assistance with daily tasks for the growing 55+ population
3. Emergency Response Partnerships – Partner with utility companies to serve as cooling/warming centers or emergency response locations during crises
4. Grant-Funded Community Programs – Develop food programs and other community services that qualify for government or nonprofit grant funding
5. Youth Ministry Spaces – Address the mental health crisis by creating safe spaces for young people to connect and build relationships
6. Business Networking Events – Host lunch-and-learns and professional networking groups that serve as valuable “third spaces.”
7. Multi-Purpose Community Hub – Rent to values-aligned organizations like preschools, scouts, AA groups, and sports teams

• Loren’s website: resonatepurpose.org
• Future Christian Podcast
• The Church Nerd on Substack
• Previous episode with Ken McQuiller on grant funding for churches

Key Takeaways

Start with Prayer and Assessment:

• Pray for God’s direction
• Survey needs in your church and neighborhood
• Take stock of your physical, human, and financial resources
• Look for the overlap between resources, opportunities, and mission

Account for True Costs:

• Even donated space has costs (utilities, wear and tear, maintenance)
• Add line items to your budget for space use—even if you’re not charging
• When necessary, ask organizations to contribute at below-market rates

Protect Your Mission:

• Don’t let building usage become the highest value
• Set clear boundaries (example: no building use on Sunday mornings)
• Ensure activities align with creating followers of Jesus
• Start slow—work out the kinks with one group at a time

Build Relationships:

• Every program creates opportunities for pastoral care and connection
• When people face crises, they’ll remember the church that was already present
• Focus on proximity and relationship, not just transactions

Best leadership habit: Developing consistent habits—Loren sets aside Monday afternoons for writing and shows up even when he doesn’t feel inspired

Favorite verse: “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief” (Mark 9:24)

One piece of advice for pastors: “The most important characteristic is the ability to get out of bed on a Monday morning… so many things in life are just doing it and doing it again, and doing it again.”

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps us get the word out and invite more people into these conversations.

Connect with Pastors & Money

Email: [email protected]

Instagram/Facebook: @pastorsandmoney

Website: pastorsandmoney.com/podcast

The Pastors & Money Podcast helps pastors, ministry leaders, and churches start thriving financially using money as a tool to fuel God's mission in our churches and families.

Want to be a guest on Pastors & Money Podcast? Send Joy Hunt a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/pastorsandmoney

• 00:00:00 – Welcome & Introduction
• 00:01:00 – Ministry Spotlight: The Adams Family in Bolivia
• 00:02:00 – Meet Gale Sciascia: Tax Planning Expert
• 00:04:00 – The Dual Tax Status Challenge Pastors Face
• 00:06:00 – Housing Allowances: Your Most Valuable Tax Break
• 00:07:00 – How Your Church Board Should Approve Housing Allowances
• 00:09:00 – How Housing Allowances Show Up on Your W2
• 00:11:00 – Should You DIY Your Ministry Taxes?
• 00:13:00 – Accountable Reimbursement Plans: Stop Paying Tax on Money That Isn\’t Income
• 00:16:00 – Handling Your Wedding and Speaking Income the Right Way
• 00:18:00 – One Proactive Step to Reduce Your Tax Anxiety This Week
• 00:19:00 – Building Tax Tracking Into Your Weekly Routine
• 00:22:00 – Why the IRS Cares So Much About Mileage
• 00:23:00 – Lightning Round: Financial Habits That Make a Difference
• 00:30:00 – Thank You for Listening

For the Full Episode Transcript Click Here

Micah and Karissa Adams serve as missionaries to six indigenous tribal groups in the Amazon jungles of Bolivia, using medical outreach and oral Bible storytelling to share the Gospel with communities that have waited over 2,000 years to hear it. Learn more and find out how to support their ministry at pastorsandmoney.com/spotlight.

Are you leaving money on the table because you don’t understand how ministry taxes work? In this essential conversation with Gale Sciascia—enrolled agent and co-founder of Sasha Tax and Retirement—we break down the tax strategies every pastor and ministry leader needs to know.

Gale explains the unique tax situation pastors face: considered an employee for income taxes but self-employed for Social Security and Medicare. This dual status creates confusion and leads to missed opportunities like underutilizing housing allowances, failing to set up proper reimbursement plans, and not planning for self-employment tax.

From understanding how housing allowances work whether you live in a parsonage, own your home, or rent, to setting up accountable reimbursement plans that stop you from paying taxes on money that isn’t really income, this episode gives you clear, actionable steps to reduce your tax burden and protect what you’ve earned. Plus, Gale shares the one proactive step you can take this week to transform tax anxiety into confidence.

• Why pastors have dual tax status and what that means for your finances
• How housing allowances work and why proper documentation is critical
• The difference between housing allowances for parsonages, owned homes, and rentals
• What an accountable reimbursement plan is and why every church needs one
• How to handle side income from weddings and speaking engagements correctly
• The biggest documentation mistakes that lead to failed audits
• Why mileage tracking is one of the IRS’s biggest red flags
• One proactive step to reduce tax anxiety and set yourself up for success
• Whether you should DIY your ministry taxes or hire a specialist

“Pastors don’t necessarily understand that they have sort of dual status. So they are considered an employee for income taxes, but self-employed for Social Security and Medicare. And so that tends to raise some confusion for them, and it also leads to some missed opportunities.” – Gale Sciascia

“The easiest way to fail an audit or have expenses disallowed and bring on other challenges is not having proper documentation.” – Gale Sciascia

“We want you to have [an accountable reimbursement plan] so that you can be reimbursed and it not be included in your income, then you’re not paying tax on a dollar amount that is not really income.” – Gale Sciascia

“Don’t wait. Claim your salvation, right? Like, don’t wait until tomorrow. Do it today.” – Gale Sciascia (quoting Pastor Robbie)

“Finances are a tool to help you sustain what you’re called to do. We need to keep our mission moving with integrity and balance and use the tools available to us.” – Gale Sciascia

Gale Sciascia is a recognized enrolled agent and co-founder of Sasha Tax and Retirement. With over 15 years of experience, Gale helps business owners, professionals, and ministry leaders translate complicated tax code into clear actionable strategies. As a federally licensed tax professional authorized by the United States Department of Treasury, she represents taxpayers before the IRS in all 50 states, handling everything from tax preparation and planning to collections and audits. Her mission is simple: educate, break financial restraints, and transform tax anxiety into wealth-building confidence.

• Shasha Tax and Retirement: shashatr.com
• Phone: 615-723-1570
• Mileage tracking apps, like Everlance
• QuickBooks for financial tracking
• Microsoft Excel for budgeting (Looking for the perfect business spreadsheet?)

• Church board meeting minutes (for housing allowance approval)
• Pastor’s compensation agreement
• Receipts for all housing expenses (mortgage/rent, utilities, furniture, repairs, insurance, maintenance)
• Expense reports for reimbursements (submitted within 30-45 days)
• Mileage logs

Important Note from Gale: Work with a tax professional who specializes in clergy taxes. Generic tax software or non-specialized preparers may miss important deductions available to pastors.

1. This week: Start organizing your tax documentation digitally—receipts, invoices, and proof of payment for all housing and ministry-related expenses
2. Check with your church board: Ask if you have a housing allowance designation and an accountable reimbursement plan in place
3. For next year: Ensure your housing allowance is approved by your church board before the end of the year so it takes effect with your first paycheck
4. Download a mileage tracking app: Stop guessing at your ministry mileage and start documenting it properly
5. Build it into your hiring process: Create templates for housing allowance agreements and reimbursement plans for all ministry staff

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps us get the word out and invite more people into these conversations.

Connect with Pastors & Money

Email: [email protected]

Instagram/Facebook: @pastorsandmoney

Website: pastorsandmoney.com/podcast

The Pastors & Money Podcast helps pastors, ministry leaders, and churches start thriving financially using money as a tool to fuel God's mission in our churches and families.

Want to be a guest on Pastors & Money Podcast? Send Joy Hunt a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/pastorsandmoney

View the Full Episode Transcript

What happens when church leaders are so busy doing ministry that they lose their intimacy with Christ? In this powerful conversation with Mike van Pelt—Christian men’s coach, author, and speaker—we explore the hidden struggles pastors face and why asking for help is one of the most courageous things a leader can do.

Mike shares his personal journey from church burnout to discovering true intimacy with Christ at a men’s retreat, and how that breakthrough led him to create True Man Life Coaching. From the pressure to “have it all together” to the dangerous pattern of burying emotions, Mike reveals why so many ministry leaders struggle in silence—and what it costs them, their families, and their churches.

Discover why building margin in your life isn’t optional, how ego and pride prevent leaders from getting the help they need, and why the younger generations might actually have something to teach us about vulnerability. This episode offers both challenge and hope for pastors who know they need help but don’t know where to start.

• The difference between belief in Christ and relationship with Christ—and why pastors can lose intimacy while doing church work
• Why men (and male pastors especially) struggle to show emotions and ask for help
• How church leadership becomes a job that crowds out personal worship and spiritual intimacy
• The importance of building margin in your life as a ministry leader
• Why “fake it till you make it” is dangerous modeling for your congregation
• How to silence the inner voice that says “you’re supposed to have all the answers”
• Practical first steps for pastors who know they need help but don’t know where to start
• Why Gen Z and Millennials are seeking answers from the church—and what that means for ministry leaders

“Even though I’d been a Christian all my life, even though I was actively involved in the church, one of the things that was missing, and I didn’t know it at the time, was I did not have an intimate relationship with Christ.” – Mike van Pelt

“I just remember staring up at the ceiling in the gym… And what I realized was, I’m going to church on Sunday. I’m not even hearing what the pastor saying, I’m getting nothing outta this.” – Mike van Pelt

“In that moment, Christ came to me and said, I want a relationship with you. You’re my beloved son… I had no idea that kind of relationship was available.” – Mike van Pelt

“What a pastor’s doing in that moment [when asking for help] is modeling something really important—it’s okay to get help.” – Mike van Pelt

“The challenges that pastors face as leaders in the churches is incredibly daunting in this age… There’s just no possible way a single human being could be equipped to deal with all of it.” – Mike van Pelt

“I think it demonstrates courage to ask for help… and it also makes it safe for the next person to ask for help.” – Joy Suzanne Hunt

Mike van Pelt is a Christian men’s coach, author, and speaker who helps men break free from limiting beliefs, reclaim their identity, and live with boldness and authenticity. Through his signature message—the power of asking for help—drawn from his book True Man, True Ways: A Roadmap of Discovery to the Masculine Heart, Mike equips men to step into God-honoring leadership, build lasting legacies, and live with conviction in every area of life. He hosts the True Man Podcast and leads weekly men’s groups focused on deep, authentic relationships.

• True Man, True Ways: A Roadmap of Discovery to the Masculine Heart by Mike van Pelt
• True Man Life Coaching: truemanlifecoaching.com
• True Man Podcast
• Proverbs 3:5-6 (Mike’s go-to verse for encouragement)
• 1 Timothy 4:12 (Setting an example / becoming an example)

1. Start journaling – Get your thoughts and feelings down on paper. Ask yourself: “What am I feeling right now?” Then take it to God: “What do you think about this?”
2. Find 1-2 trusted mentors – Keep your circle small but intentional. Find people who will listen well and ask powerful questions.
3. Attend a men’s retreat – If you’ve never been to a retreat, consider it. These environments create space for breakthrough and deeper relationship with God.
4. Create margin in your schedule – Build in time where you’re not “fixing” or leading—time to just be with God and process life.
5. Practice vulnerability strategically – Choose what to be vulnerable about and with whom. You don’t have to share everything with everyone, but you do need to get help.

• Website: truemanlifecoaching.com
• Facebook: Mark van Pelt
• YouTube: youtube.com/marksent1

Mike is also developing speaking engagements for churches and organizations about the power of asking for help, especially as it relates to different generations.

• Email: [email protected]
• Instagram/Facebook: @pastorsandmoney
• Website: pastorsandmoney.com
• Leave a comment on the show notes: pastorsandmoney.com/podcast

The Pastors & Money Podcast helps pastors, ministry leaders, and churches start thriving financially using money as a tool to fuel God’s mission in our churches and families.

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps us get the word out and invite more people into these conversations.

Connect with Pastors & Money

Email: [email protected]

Instagram/Facebook: @pastorsandmoney

Website: pastorsandmoney.com/podcast

The Pastors & Money Podcast helps pastors, ministry leaders, and churches start thriving financially using money as a tool to fuel God's mission in our churches and families.

Want to be a guest on Pastors & Money Podcast? Send Joy Hunt a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/pastorsandmoney

View the episode transcript here.

What if retirement isn’t about fishing and golfing for the rest of your life? In this powerful conversation with legacy strategist Kyle Gabhart, we explore a radically different view of pastors retirement, one rooted in biblical examples and kingdom purpose.

Kyle uses Moses as a biblical model for understanding retirement, showing how he had two complete 40-year careers before training his successor Joshua. This challenges our cultural assumption that retirement means the end of purposeful work. Instead, Kyle advocates for “retiring to something, not just from something.”

Discover why the traditional model of compartmentalizing life—building wealth first, then serving later—is shortsighted and potentially dangerous. Learn the difference between “leaving a legacy” and “living a legacy,” and why waiting until your golden years to pursue ministry and purpose might mean missing the opportunities God has for you today.

From King David’s “side hustle” that became his most lasting contribution, to the urgent need for succession planning in ministry, this episode will challenge how you think about the later seasons of life and inspire you to integrate purpose, ministry, and legacy throughout your entire journeyWhat You’ll Learn

• Why Moses provides the only biblical example of something resembling retirement
• The danger of compartmentalizing life into “career years” and “ministry years”
• How to shift from “leaving a legacy” to “living a legacy” starting today
• Why the fishing-and-golfing retirement model leaves people feeling hollow and unsatisfied
• How to “date” different ministries and passions before fully committing in later years
• The critical importance of succession planning and mentoring as part of your job description
• Why identity should be rooted in Christ, not your vocation or career
• Practical steps for preparing for later years while staying purposeful today
• How King David’s “side hustle” became his greatest ministry contribution
• The pastor pipeline crisis and why training the next generation is urgent

“It’s absolutely okay to retire from something, but it’s important that you retire to something. The notion that society has filled our minds with of nose to the grindstone, build up a theoretical pool of dollars, and then fish and golf the rest of your life is absurd.” – Kyle Gabhart

“If legacy is simply something you leave behind, then what’s really happening is you’re kinda walking out that proverbial door. As you go towards the light, you toss this legacy over your shoulder… If you shift from leaving a legacy to living one, well now that’s something you can roll your sleeves up and actively get involved with today.” – Kyle Gabhart

“As long as you’ve got blood pumping through your veins, you’ve got air in your lungs, the Lord’s not done with you. There’s a purpose for you. We’re told that our days are numbered, and so he’s keeping you around for a reason and you need to figure out what that is and get busy.” – Kyle Gabhart

“Your assignment will change, your calling won’t change.” – Joy Suzanne Hunt

“We unfortunately in our society tend to define identity by vocation… career number one might be a shepherd, but that doesn’t mean that you are a shepherd. It means that for 40 years you shepherded.” – Kyle Gabhart

Kyle Gabhart is a seasoned speaker, strategist, and author known for helping people live with greater purpose across faith, family, and finances. Whether guiding business leaders through legacy planning or inspiring audiences from the stage, Kyle’s message is rooted in timeless truth and practical wisdom. He’s also the author of The Canteen, a raw and moving account of his life-changing mission trip to Africa at age 19—a story that challenges us to let go of comfort and control and discover the quiet abundance that comes when we fully depend on God.

• The Canteen by Kyle Gabhart
• Win at Work and Succeed at Life by Michael Hyatt
• Kyle’s website: kylegabhart.com

1. Ask yourself: “What’s next?” – Make this a regular question you bring to the Lord, even during your current season
2. Start “dating” different ministries, nonprofits, or passion projects to see what resonates with your values
3. Make succession planning and mentoring part of your job description, not just a spare-time activity
4. Examine whether you’re compartmentalizing your life into “career years” and “ministry years” – look for ways to integrate purpose and legacy now
5. Consider: What “side hustle” or passion project might God be calling you to develop that could become your greatest kingdom contribution?

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps us get the word out and invite more people into these conversations.

Connect with Pastors & Money

Email: [email protected]

Instagram/Facebook: @pastorsandmoney

Website: pastorsandmoney.com/podcast

The Pastors & Money Podcast helps pastors, ministry leaders, and churches start thriving financially using money as a tool to fuel God's mission in our churches and families.

Want to be a guest on Pastors & Money Podcast? Send Joy Hunt a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/pastorsandmoney

• 00:00:00 – Introduction to Justin Bennett
• 00:01:00 – Defining Financial Freedom vs. Financial Independence
• 00:02:00 – What Most People Misunderstand About Financial Independence
• 00:03:00 – The Importance of a Strong Financial Foundation
• 00:04:00 – Why Pastors Chase Financial Independence Without Building the Foundation First
• 00:06:00 – What Ministry Leaders Really Want From Financial Independence
• 00:08:00 – How Financial Freedom Opens Up Possibilities That Seemed Impossible
• 00:09:00 – Real-Life Stories of Financial Transformation
• 00:12:00 – When There\’s No Hope, We Won\’t Sacrifice
• 00:14:00 – The Impact of Financial Health on Ministry
• 00:16:00 – Challenges and Solutions for Church Finances
• 00:20:00 – The Broader Implications of Financial Stability
• 00:23:00 – The Importance of Downtime and Hobbies for Pastors
• 00:25:00 – Steps to Achieve Financial Freedom
• 00:27:00 – The Power of Awareness in Financial Management
• 00:29:00 – Tracking Expenses: A Key to Financial Control
• 00:33:00 – The First Step Ministry Leaders Should Take This Week
• 00:36:00 – How Intentional Spending Leads to Better Ministry Choices
• 00:39:00 – Lightning Round: Quick Financial Tips
• 00:42:00 – Why Debt-Free Churches and Congregations Transform Communities
• 00:43:00 – Conclusion and Resources

What’s the real difference between financial freedom and financial independence—and why does it matter for pastors and ministry leaders? In this conversation with financial coach Justin Bennett, we explore how achieving financial freedom (being debt-free except for your house, having an emergency fund, and living on less than you make) creates a foundation that transforms not just your bank account, but your entire ministry.

Justin shares powerful stories of transformation, including clients who discovered hope when they finally saw a clear path out of debt, and explains why that “$1,500-2,000 per month in debt payments” most families are making could be redirected toward generosity, family health, and kingdom impact. We also tackle the hard truths about why church plants fail, how financial stress affects pastor’s kids, and why 100,000 churches may close in the next decade—often due to financial issues that could have been prevented.

This isn’t just theory. Justin has coached over 1,000 clients to pay off more than $10 million in combined debt, and he breaks down the practical five-level framework that works for ministry leaders just as well as anyone else.

View the full transcript.

• The critical difference between financial freedom and financial independence (and why confusion between them keeps people stuck)
• Why the first step isn’t actually budgeting—it’s defining what you’re trying to achieve
• How paying off debt creates a “belief system” that makes other impossible goals suddenly seem achievable
• The real cost of that $1,500-2,000/month in debt payments most families carry
• Why “when there’s no hope, we won’t sacrifice”—and how hope changes everything
• How one pastor’s personal debt freedom prevented his church plant from failing
• Why pastors sharing their financial wins with their congregation can save marriages and keep tithers engaged
• The five levels to achieve financial freedom: Awareness, Knowledge, Commitment, Momentum, and Freedom
• Why manually tracking expenses for just 14 days will shock you into action
• How one client found $500/month in forgotten subscriptions (and half weren’t even being used)

“Financial freedom is where you’re not a slave to the lender as Proverbs 22:7 says. Financial independence is where you don’t have to work. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t work, but just means you don’t have to work in order to take care of your family.” – Justin Bennett

“When there’s no hope, we’ll never sacrifice. When we have hope we can do it, it’s worth paying the price to see if we can get there.” – Justin Bennett

“Hope is the only thing stronger than fear.” – Joy Suzanne Hunt (quoting The Hunger Games)

“A lot of church plants fail because of the pastor’s personal finances. Because the church isn’t at a point to be able to support them yet. And the pastor’s personal finances are not in a position to be able to sustain after the fundraising money runs out.” – Joy Suzanne Hunt

“If you’re a pastor or a leader and you share what God did financially, how you got out of debt… if just one household from your church gets it, a marriage could be saved.” – Justin Bennett

“When you’re neck deep in debt, you’re not worried about the next vision. You’re going, how do I eat?” – Justin Bennett

“I can’t fully bring something to God and surrender it to him if I don’t know what I’m bringing to him.” – Joy Suzanne Hunt

Justin Bennett has spent the last two decades coaching over 1,000 clients to gain control of their money and pay off a combined debt total of over $10 million. His debut book, Level Up Your Finances, tackles the core financial issues that hold people back from winning with their money. His straightforward, no-nonsense style helps people move from living paycheck to paycheck to achieving real financial freedom. Justin is passionate about helping ministry leaders and their congregations achieve debt freedom so they can focus on kingdom impact rather than financial survival.

• Level Up Your Finances by Justin Bennett (available in audiobook, hardcover, paperback, and ebook)
• Level Up Your Finances website: levelupyourfinances.com
• Generous Giving ministry
• The SALT Network (church planting in college communities)

For pastors and ministry leaders ready to start moving toward financial freedom:

1. This week: Begin tracking your expenses manually for 14 days. Don’t use an app—write it down or type it out. You need to see every transaction to understand your spending patterns.
2. Look for: Duplicate subscriptions, unused services, and the total number of transactions (you’ll likely be shocked).
3. Remember: This isn’t about judgment—it’s about awareness. You can’t manage what you don’t measure.
4. Next step: Once you have awareness, move to the knowledge phase—learn how to budget, save, and get out of debt using proven methods.

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps us get the word out and invite more people into these conversations.

Connect with Pastors & Money

Email: [email protected]

Instagram/Facebook: @pastorsandmoney

Website: pastorsandmoney.com/podcast

The Pastors & Money Podcast helps pastors, ministry leaders, and churches start thriving financially using money as a tool to fuel God's mission in our churches and families.

Want to be a guest on Pastors & Money Podcast? Send Joy Hunt a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/pastorsandmoney

• 00:00:00 – From Pastor’s Kid to Wilderness Wanderer
• 00:02:00 – Growing Up Under the Microscope: A Pastor’s Kid Journey
• 00:04:00 – The Canteen: Where Pastors Find Peace Through Surrender
• 00:06:00 – The Moment of Complete Surrender
• 00:09:00 – Experiencing True Spiritual Hunger: How Pastors Find Peace in God’s Timing
• 00:13:00 – Lessons from Deuteronomy 8: Finding Peace Through God’s Provision
• 00:17:00 – Breaking Free from Self-Sufficiency: How Pastors Find Peace in God’s Partnership
• 00:19:00 – God’s Invitation to Partnership: From Creation to Today
• 00:22:00 – Practical Ways Churches Can Find Peace in God’s Provision
• 00:23:00 – Creating Sacred Space: When Pastors Find Peace Through Divine Encounters
• 00:26:00 – Connect with Kyle Gabhart

View the Episode Transcript here.

What happens when a 19-year-old pastor’s kid from suburban Texas gets dropped into the wilderness of Southern Africa? For Kyle Gabhart, it became a life-changing lesson in surrendering control and discovering God’s provision. In this powerful conversation, Kyle shares the story behind his book “The Canteen” and reveals how a desperate moment on an African mountain taught him the difference between self-sufficiency and true dependence on God.

Kyle draws fascinating parallels between his wilderness experience and the Israelites’ journey in Deuteronomy 8, showing how God uses seasons of uncertainty to prepare us for His promises. From experiencing true spiritual hunger in Zimbabwean villages to understanding the balance between faithful stewardship and passive waiting, this episode challenges pastors to examine what they’re gripping onto instead of trusting God completely.

Discover practical ways churches can create space for the Holy Spirit while maintaining good stewardship, and learn how to move from Western self-sufficiency to biblical dependence without becoming passive in your calling.

• The life-changing lesson Kyle learned when he ran out of water on an African mountain
• How African believers demonstrated true “hunger and thirst for righteousness”
• Key lessons from Deuteronomy 8 about God’s provision and the dangers of prosperity
• The difference between self-sufficiency and healthy stewardship
• How Jesus’ feeding of the 5,000 illustrates God’s partnership with our efforts
• Practical ways churches can hold plans loosely while maintaining good stewardship
• How to create sacred spaces for God to work in structured church environments
• Why God chooses to multiply our “loaves and fishes” rather than work independently

“My challenge, my encouragement to folks is to figure out what their metaphorical canteen is that they’re gripping onto and to empty it so that they can receive what the Lord has to give them.” – Kyle Gabhart

“So that is hungering and thirsting after righteousness. And I thought I knew what it looked like, and then I experienced people that genuinely craved spiritual connection.” – Kyle Gabhart

“God is ready, willing, and able to multiply our efforts, but he asks for us to step into and meet him our way in that, and we bring him our proverbial loaves and fishes so that there is something to multiply.” – Kyle Gabhart

“It’s so easy for us to fall into the trap of thinking that it’s us, rather than remembering that he’s the source of all of it.” – Kyle Gabhart

Kyle Gabhart is a seasoned speaker, strategist, and author known for helping people live with greater purpose across faith, family, and finances. Whether guiding business leaders through legacy planning or inspiring audiences from the stage, Kyle’s message is rooted in timeless truth and practical wisdom. He’s the author of “The Canteen,” a raw and moving account of his life-changing mission trip to Africa at the age of 19 that challenges readers to let go of comfort and control and discover the quiet abundance that comes when we fully depend on God.

• “The Canteen” by Kyle Gabhart
• Kyle Gabhart’s website: kylegabhart.com
• Deuteronomy 8 (Israelites’ wilderness journey)
• The feeding of the 5,000 (loaves and fishes miracle)

1. Examine your “canteen” – What are you gripping onto for security instead of trusting God completely?
2. Create sacred space – Consider implementing worship nights, extended prayer times, or other opportunities for your congregation to hunger and thirst for righteousness
3. Hold plans loosely – Review your church planning process to ensure you’re leaving room for the Holy Spirit to direct
4. Practice active dependence – Bring your “loaves and fishes” to God and watch Him multiply your faithful efforts

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps us get the word out and invite more people into these conversations.

Connect with Pastors & Money

Email: [email protected]

Instagram/Facebook: @pastorsandmoney

Website: pastorsandmoney.com/podcast

The Pastors & Money Podcast helps pastors, ministry leaders, and churches start thriving financially using money as a tool to fuel God's mission in our churches and families.

Want to be a guest on Pastors & Money Podcast? Send Joy Hunt a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/pastorsandmoney

• 00:00:00 – Introduction to the Pastors & Money Podcast
• 00:01:00 – Meet Justin Bennett: Financial Coach Extraordinaire
• 00:02:00 – Justin\’s Journey into Financial Coaching
• 00:04:00 – Common Financial Struggles and Solutions
• 00:07:00 – Unique Ministry Money Problems for Pastors
• 00:09:00 – The Isolation of Pastors and Financial Struggles
• 00:11:30 – The Power of Vulnerability and Accountability
• 00:14:45 – Success Stories and Real-Life Impact
• 00:16:30 – The Importance of Accountability in Finances
• 00:20:15 – Breaking Free from Isolation
• 00:22:00 – How Sharing Breaks the Shame Cycle
• 00:25:00 – The Enemy\’s Tactics Against Ministry Leaders
• 00:27:45 – Final Thoughts and Encouragement
• 00:28:45 – God\’s Ministry, Not Yours
• 00:31:00 – Lightning Round and Conclusion
• 00:31:15 – Connect with Justin Bennett
• 00:32:30 – Take Action Today

Why do pastors struggle with money despite having biblical knowledge about stewardship? In this eye-opening conversation with financial coach Justin Bennett—who has helped clients pay off over $10 million in debt—we uncover the unique ministry money problems that pastors face in silence.

Justin reveals the extra layers of shame and guilt that ministry leaders carry, the isolation that keeps them trapped in financial struggles, and why they often wait until rock bottom before seeking help. From the fear of losing their job if the board discovers their debt, to wondering what congregation members will think if they take on a second job, pastors face challenges that extend beyond simple budgeting.

Discover how accountability breaks the cycle of financial isolation, why sharing takes away the shame, and how getting financial help actually makes pastors more effective in ministry. This conversation will challenge you to break free from the lies that keep ministry leaders struggling in the dark.

Click here for the full episode transcript.

• Why pastors and ministry leaders face unique financial challenges beyond typical money problems
• The extra layers of shame and guilt that keep ministry leaders from seeking help
• How financial stress becomes a major distraction from God’s calling on pastors’ lives
• Why most people (including pastors) don’t reach out for help until they hit rock bottom
• The isolation trap that Satan uses to keep ministry leaders stuck in financial struggles
• How vulnerability and accountability create breakthrough moments for pastors
• Why sharing your struggles takes away their power and opens the door to solutions
• Practical steps pastors can take this week to break out of financial isolation
• How getting financial help actually makes pastors more effective in their ministry

“I am convinced isolation is Satan’s playground. That’s where we listen to lies.” – Justin Bennett

“I’ve seen time and time again, whether it’s ministry leaders, pastors, missionaries, they get their finances under control, it’s amazing how much more focus they can be on what God’s called them.” – Justin Bennett

“It ain’t your ministry, God’s ministry. And what a humbling opportunity that God says – you get to be a privilege of the process.” – Justin Bennett

“I heard somebody say once that sharing takes away the shame, and it’s like letting the air outta the balloon. The balloon is still there, it just doesn’t have any power anymore.” – Joy Suzanne Hunt

Justin Bennett has coached over 1,000 clients in the last two decades to gain control of their money and pay off a combined debt total of over $10 million. In his debut book, “Level Up Your Finances,” Justin tackles the core financial issues that hold people back from winning with their money. His straightforward, no-nonsense style helps people move from living paycheck to paycheck to achieving real financial freedom. His tagline says it all: “Say goodbye to winging it with money.”

• “Level Up Your Finances” by Justin Bennett – Available in hardback, paperback, ebook, and audiobook (read by the author)
• Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University program – Mentioned as transformative for both Justin and Joy’s financial journeys

• levelupyourfinances.com – Justin’s book website with direct Amazon link, free resources, and coaching information
• pastorsandmoney.com – Joy’s website with episode show notes and resources

• Justin Bennett Financial Coaching – Offers free consultations, available through his website
• Ramsey Coaching Community – Network where Joy and Justin connected
• Pastors & Money Coaching Referrals – Joy maintains a list of coaches with a heart for pastors (contact: [email protected])

• First Timothy 4:12-16 – “Don’t let anyone look down on you because you’re young, but set an example for the believers” (discussed in context of being a work in progress)
• First Peter 5:10-11 – “After you have suffered a little while, Jesus will personally come to restore you” (Justin’s go-to encouragement verse)
• Proverbs 13:12 – “Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but desire accomplished is a tree of life” (used in Justin’s client follow-up sessions)
• Galatians 6 – “Share one another’s burdens” (burden described as like a boulder)
• Proverbs 18:1 – “He who isolates himself rebels against all wise counsel and sound judgment”

• 30-day expense tracking – Justin’s first assignment for all clients
• Monthly budget creation and living – Justin’s personal best financial habit
• Spreadsheet budgeting – Justin’s preferred budgeting tool
• Zoom/FaceTime coaching – Remote coaching options for pastors who prefer privacy

• Best financial habit: Creating and living on a budget
• Budgeting tool: Spreadsheet
• Go-to Bible verse: First Peter 5:10-11 – “After you have suffered a little while, Jesus will personally come to restore you”

1. Make the commitment to talk to somebody – whether a trusted friend, coach, or fellow pastor outside your context
2. Reach out to Joy at [email protected] for coaching referrals specifically for pastors
3. Visit levelupyourfinances.com for Justin’s book and free consultation
4. Remember: Getting help isn’t a sign of failure – it’s being a good steward of what God has entrusted to you

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, share, and leave a review — it helps us get the word out and invite more people into these conversations.

Connect with Pastors & Money

Email: [email protected]

Instagram/Facebook: @pastorsandmoney

Website: pastorsandmoney.com/podcast

The Pastors & Money Podcast helps pastors, ministry leaders, and churches start thriving financially using money as a tool to fuel God's mission in our churches and families.

Want to be a guest on Pastors & Money Podcast? Send Joy Hunt a message on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/pastorsandmoney