In episode 8, Marni and Chris talked with Dr. Amy Clark, whose doctoral research uncovered why mentoring is uniquely powerful for PDA learners. Amy explains what real mentoring looks like: attunement, autonomy, flexibility, and deep curiosity. We discuss why traditional educational models fail PDA kids, how burnout happens, why praise can backfire, and how families can bring mentoring principles into everyday life even without access to formal mentors.

Amy also shares case studies from her research, including how one PDA student moved from total shutdown to thriving through a slow, relational, interest-based process.

We close with the biggest misconception about PDA kids: they don’t need more discipline—they need safety, trust, and people who truly see them.

Dr. Amy Haynes Clark is a leader in twice-exceptional development and neurodiversity-affirming systems design. Drawing on her doctorate in Cognitive Diversity and Innovative Leadership, she mentors profoundly gifted youth and supports families with children who identify as or experience autism, PDA, anxiety, OCD, Tourette’s, or ARFID. She guides parents in adopting strengths-based, self-directed learning approaches that foster connection, confidence, and harmony at home. Through her consultancy, Exceptionally Engaged, she also partners with educators and organizations to create psychologically safe, autonomy-supportive cultures where creative thinkers and teams can truly thrive.

Links from this episode:

Exceptionally Engaged (Amy’s website)

Find Amy on instagram

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Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells

PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack

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In episode 7, Marni and Chris talked with Mattia Maurée, an AuDHD coach and host of the AuDHD Flourishing podcast. We explore the intersection of PDA, existential awareness, and the journey toward honoring our body’s wisdom.

Mattia shares their personal journey from receiving diagnoses of complex PTSD and bipolar disorder as a young person to later discovering autism, ADHD, and PDA—reframings that made sense of a lifetime of experiences. We learn how PDA manifested in Mattia’s childhood and how it continues to show up in adulthood, particularly in resisting even self-generated demands.

This conversation moves between the personal and the systemic, touching on the impact of poverty on autonomy and PDA, the role of privilege in being able to build a life aligned with one’s needs, and the importance of slowing down and listening to our bodies’ signals before they escalate.

Mattia Maurée (they/them) is an AuDHD coach and host of the AuDHD Flourishing Podcast. Creative outlets in music and the arts became Mattia’s refuge through a childhood full of unpredictability. Confronting trauma sparked an interest in the topic, and it led to their Autism diagnosis in their 30s, as well as finding somatic neurodivergent-friendly methods of working through depression and anxiety. They now share their experiences to give hope to queer, trans, and neurodivergent folks through the philosophy of “feel better first.”

Resources from this episode

* Mattia’s website and podcast, AuDHD Flourishing

* AuDHD Flourishing Episode 87: Giftedness & the Sparkly Mind with Sheldon Gay

* AuDHD Flourishing Episode 88: Gifted Development & Positive Disintegration with Chris Wells

* AuDHD Flourishing Episode 108: Using Intuition Practically

* Robert Chapman’s book Empire of Normality

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Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell

Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells

PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack

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If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!

In episode 6, Chris and Marni talk with Becca Campbell, an ADHD PDAer raising an ADHD PDAer and the founder of Matching Sweaters Travel Company.

We discuss the unique challenges and insights that come with travel as a PDA adult and parent. Travel often means facing layers of uncertainty, shifting routines, and unexpected demands — all of which can spark resistance and anxiety.

Together, we explore:

* Why new places and disrupted routines intensify PDA responses

* Strategies for navigating travel with kids who have a pervasive drive for autonomy

* The tension between wanting adventure and needing safety and predictability

* How privilege, support, and self-awareness shape the ability to travel

* The ways travel mirrors the larger journey of life with PDA: detours, resilience, and rethinking what “success” looks like

Becca shares stories from her own experience of parenting and traveling, offering both validation and practical insight for families wondering what’s possible — and how to find autonomy even when on the road.

Becca Campbell is an ADHD PDAer raising an ADHD PDAer. She’s the founder of Matching Sweaters Travel Company, where she helps neurodivergent families plan travel rooted in strengths, interests, curiosity, and autonomy. Her upcoming book blends memoir and practical tools to support families who want to explore the world without leaving themselves behind.

Resources from this episode

Connect with Becca Campbell:

Instagram --> @matchingsweaterstravel

Facebook --> Matching Sweaters Travel

Website --> https://matchingsweaterstravel.wordpress.com/

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Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell

Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells

PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack

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In episode 5, Marni and Chris talked with Caitlin Hughes, a multi-exceptional (Autistic, ADHD, Gifted) Accredited Mental Health Social Worker and founder of Cathartic Collaborations, a neurodivergent-affirming private practice in Brisbane, Australia.

We explore what it really means to live with a pervasive drive for autonomy as an adult. We talk about how privilege, safety, and life design shape the PDA experience, how early coping strategies evolve over time, and why autonomy-supportive environments matter for everyone. With insights drawn from both lived experience and professional practice, we unpack the nuances often missed in child-focused PDA conversations and offer perspectives that validate, challenge, and inspire.

Key themes included:

* The internal struggle with self-imposed demands. Even when tasks are self-initiated and aligned with personal desires, the pressure of execution can trigger significant distress.

* Having the freedom to make choices is essential for regulating our nervous systems. This autonomy allows us to honor our needs and set boundaries, which is vital for mental well-being.

* Caitlin introduced us to the concept of Internal Family Systems (IFS), which views our psyche as composed of different parts. This framework can help us understand our reactions and emotions better.

Caitlin Hughes (she/they) is a multi-exceptional (Autistic, ADHD, Gifted) Accredited Mental Health Social Worker and the founder of Cathartic Collaborations, a neurodivergent-affirming private practice based in Brisbane, Australia. Drawing on both lived and professional experience, Caitlin provides somatic, trauma-informed therapeutic support for neurocomplex and neuroqueer folks, helping clients embrace their unique neurotypes and build self-defined lives of meaning and purpose.

Caitlin is a passionate advocate for neurodivergent mental health, with a special interest in supporting other social workers to grow in their affirming practice. They facilitate the Neurodivergent Affirming Social Workers Collective on Facebook and co-host Divergent Dialogues, a podcast and Substack publication exploring neurodivergent mental health through a blend of research, personal experience, and reflective conversation.

Currently completing a PhD focused on Autistic mental health, Caitlin is a published researcher with a strong interest in qualitative inquiry and systems change.

Links from this episode:

Cathartic Collaborations (Caitlin’s website)

Divergent Dialogues

Inside the Nervous System: Reframing PDA with IFS (Caitlin’s blog)

Find Caitlin on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn

Caitlin’s episodes on Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad

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Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell

Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells

PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack

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If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!

In episode 4 of PDA: Resistance and Resilience, Marni and Chris were joined by Katy Higgins Lee, MFT, a multiply neurodivergent therapist and parent from Santa Rose, California.

Together, we dive into the complex terrain of functioning labels, exploring how terms like “high-functioning” and even PDA itself can be misused in ways that reduce human complexity and perpetuate ableist assumptions. The conversation weaves through lived experiences, therapeutic insights, and parenting reflections while highlighting how labels often obscure more than they clarify.

Key themes include:

* Why functioning labels are outdated and harmful

* How giftedness and twice-exceptionality (2e) are often misunderstood or misused

* The tension between parenting support and pathologizing language

* How PDA is sometimes used to imply “not autistic”

* Why educational settings often misjudge our kids’ needs, and how unschooling can offer new freedom

* Why supporting our kids means shifting our own assumptions about functioning, success, and motivation

Join us for a rich, honest, and affirming conversation about dismantling stigma, honoring complexity, and making space for each person’s truth.

Bio: Katy Higgins Lee (she/her) is a multiply neurodivergent therapist in Northern California where she supports neurodivergent adults and couples. She also supports fellow therapists through clinical supervision, consultation, and continuing education courses, along with Authentic Movement groups for therapists. She has a Masters Degree in Counseling Psychology with an emphasis in Somatics from the California Institute of Integral Studies. Katy also provides psychoeducation and advocacy through social media (under the name Tending Paths) and is a homeschooling/unschooling parent, writer, and gardener.

Links from this episode

Visit Katy’s website

You can find Katy [Tending Paths] on Instagram and Facebook

Katy was a guest on Positive Disintegration Episode 30: Celebrating Neurodiversity, Overexcitabilities, and Giftedness

Ticket Theory by Hilary Knutson

Giftedness as Neurodivergence, Not Functioning Label:

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Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell

Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells

PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack

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If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!

Welcome to Episode 3 of PDA: Resistance and Resilience, recorded in Skokie, Illinois, following the PDA North America Conference. In this episode, Marni and Chris reflect on their time at the event—what it was like to attend as participants rather than presenters, the range of experiences among PDA parents and adults, and the importance of building community across stages of life and development.

From honoring nervous system needs and exploring adult PDA identity to parenting struggles, unschooling, and reframing success outside conventional norms, this conversation is rich with lived insight and emotional honesty. Chris shares about using their imagination to survive trauma and how that process eventually integrated into their grounded adult life. Marni talks about shifting expectations and learning from the wisdom of neurodivergent tradespeople. Together, they trace the complexity of the PDA experience—internalized and externalized, across age, gender, and social location.

Topics include:

* Reflections on the PDA North America Annual Conference

* The value of seeing other PDA adults thriving

* Parenting through the lens of PDA and neurodivergence

* Internal vs. external PDA manifestations over time

* Navigating school decisions and prioritizing well-being

* Imagination as escape and integration

* The intersection of giftedness, autonomy, and social justice

* College, trades, and expanding definitions of success

Referenced people & organizations:

* PDA North America

* Marna Wohlfeld (Editor of GHF Journey)

* Amanda Diekman (Low Demand Parenting)

* Chris’s episode on AuDHD Flourishing podcast

* Julie Bogart (on homeschooling and perspective)

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Subscribe to PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack

Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell

Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells

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If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!

In episode 2, Marni and Chris dive into the question, What is PDA?—not just how it’s defined by others, but how it feels in our bodies and shows up across our lives. We explore how definitions grounded in childhood behaviors can fall short when you're trying to understand yourself as an adult—and why lived experience should be at the center of the conversation.

Together, we unpack:

* How PDA often first enters our lives through parenting or professional roles, and how recognition of ourselves comes later

* The tension between knowing we fit the profile and not fully resonating with how it’s described

* The emotional logic behind demand avoidance, especially in relation to autonomy, power, and safety

* The creative, sometimes subversive strategies we used to avoid demands as kids and teens

* The pathologizing of deep, intense relationships—and how “obsessive” interests in people have been both misunderstood and essential

* Our evolving understanding of masking and how we each navigate diplomacy, honesty, and authenticity

This conversation is part of an ongoing process of naming, questioning, and making sense of PDA from the inside out. If you’ve ever felt like the existing descriptions don’t fully capture your reality, we hope you’ll feel seen in this space.

*Show notes created with the help of AI, but our conversations are always 100% human!

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In episode 1 of PDA: Resistance and Resilience, co-hosts Marni Kammersell and Chris Wells sit down for an unscripted, personal conversation about Pathological Demand Avoidance as a lived experience.

Together, we explore what it means to question the dominant narratives around PDA, especially as adults who have spent a lifetime resisting internal and external demands. This episode highlights what is often missing in the public discourse: a diversity of adult perspectives, the complexity of experience, and the possibility of reframing PDA as something other than a pathology.

Topics include:

* Why “resistance to compulsion” feels more accurate than “pathological”

* The personal cost of being misunderstood as gifted or oppositional

* How fantasy, internal avoidance, and world-building can serve as survival strategies

* The ongoing tension between autonomy and belonging

* Navigating PDA traits without self-erasure or shame

* Living with integrity when structure and systems don’t fit

We share our own stories as humans, figuring things out as we go. This episode opens the door to a different kind of conversation—one rooted in curiosity, mutual respect, and a deep commitment to honoring neurodivergent lives.

PDA remains a developing concept within the neurodivergent community. Many people resonate with its traits but struggle to find clear definitions or supportive frameworks. Our conversation points to the need for more dialogue about the adult experience, since most existing literature focuses on children. By sharing our stories and insights, we hope to expand the conversation and reflect the complexity of adult lives shaped by PDA.

*Show notes created with the help of AI, but our conversations are always 100% human!

Connect With Us

Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell

Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells

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If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you!