Both Wendy Mohler-Seib and Andrew Sullivan (previous guests on PlainSpoken) recommended that I speak with Dr. Clark. Despite my conversation with Brian Abasciano, the case for Arminian biblical interpretation (the notion that God makes room for our free will in matters of great importance) has been slim on my podcast. Meanwhile I gave a platform to Gilbert Grayson, an accomplished Calvinist and primary content creator for The Chorus in the Chaos.

Even after all this groundwork being laid, you’ll see my conversation with Richie reveals a good deal of confusion on my part. You’ll also see he’s very patient with me and adept in the conversation. My hope is that my struggling with the concepts involved helps viewers/listeners.

Bio on Richie ClarkRichard has taught at a variety of schools and is currently the visiting scholar at Southwestern College. His PhD work (he’s in his final year) is in historical theology related to Arminian theology. He has a heart for apologetics and has published articles in many places. Richie and his wife, Lydia, and their son, Gabriel are members of Wellington Methodist Church (GMC) in Wellington, KS

Links:

Professional Links to Richie:Manchester Wesley Research Centre Junior Fellow in TheologyVisiting Scholar in Religion & Philosophy at Southwestern College

Recommended Readings on Arminianism:(1) J. Matthew Pinson's 40 Questions About Arminianism (Kregal Academic, 2022).(2) Thomas H. McCall and Keith D. Stanglin, After Arminius: A Historical Introduction to Arminian Theology (Oxford University Press, 2021).(3) Keith D. Stanglin and Thomas H. McCall, Jacob Arminius: Theologian of Grace (Oxford University Press, 2012).(4) Roger E. Olson, Arminian Theology Myths and Realities (IVP Academic, 2006).

Open access works that he has written:Omnipotence Pseudocide by a Single Qualification: A Reflection on Omnipotence’s ‘Death by a Thousand Qualifications’ in the Work of Thomas OordAntinomianism and Reformed ArminianismA Review of "Anyone Can Be Saved" written by Southern Baptist anti-Calvinists

Zach Kingery is the Network Director for the Dirt Roads Network, a ministry aimed at revitalizing and planting churches across rural America. They are dedicated to a vision of a future in which every small town has at least one life-filled, faithful church. This ministry is the outgrowth of a local church in a town of 40 people that was able to grow into 350 people. They split into satellite churches, then began planting and revitalizing churches.

If you live in a rural area, or if you want to better understand the needs and ethos of rural churches, spend some time here. Zach is eager to help rural churches that are ready to submit to the lordship and direction of Christ. If you want to contact him, you can email him at [email protected]

To learn more about the Dirt Roads Network, you can go to www.dirtroadsnetwork.com.

Meeting Summary from Zoom’s AI Companion

Rural Ministry and Local Churches

Jeffrey and Zach, both Methodist pastors, discussed their passion for rural ministry and the importance of local churches. Zach, the network director for the Dirt Roads Network, shared his experiences growing up in a small rural church and how it shaped his faith. He emphasized the value of local churches in providing a supportive community and fostering deep faith connections. Zach also shared his journey to becoming a pastor, including his initial doubts and the moment when he felt called to serve the dead, the dying, and the forgotten. Jeffrey agreed with Zach's sentiments and highlighted the challenges of balancing Biblical faith with interpersonal relationships in churches. Both pastors expressed their commitment to rural ministry and the importance of nurturing faith in local communities.

Zach's Journey Into Pastoral Ministry

Zach shared his journey into pastoral ministry, starting with his experiences in rural communities and his transition from the Wesleyan denomination to the United Methodist Church. He emphasized the importance of serving the "dead, the dying, and the forgotten" and how his calling to ministry has evolved over time. Zach also discussed his experiences as a pastor in rural South Dakota, where he learned about the significance of rural churches in their communities. He highlighted the need for these churches to understand their importance in advancing the kingdom of God. Jeffrey listened attentively and responded with affirmations and questions.

Small Town Ministry and Rural America

Jeffrey and Zach discussed the importance of small town ministry and the role of the local church in rural environments. They highlighted the theological conviction of the imago dei, emphasizing that every human being is made in God's image and deserves attention. They also discussed the trend of centralizing power in Western civilization and the potential of small towns and small churches to preserve traditions and values. Zach shared the history of the Dirt Roads Network, which originated from Lamont Wesleyan Church's mission to reach new people and make disciples of Jesus Christ. They agreed that rural America is a mission field and that small towns are areas of need, requiring training as missionaries. The conversation concluded with the understanding that small towns are not necessarily more Christian than cities, but may have different moral standards due to their close-knit communities.

Rural Ministry Challenges and Opportunities

Jeffrey and Zach discussed the challenges and opportunities of rural and small-town ministry. Zach shared about the Dirt Roads Network, a platform that connects rural pastors, provides resources, and encourages discernment in decision-making. They emphasized the importance of viewing their areas as mission fields, studying the culture, and shifting their scorecards to focus on community integration and spiritual growth. Zach also shared the story of Lamont Wesleyan Church, which grew through a collaborative effort among laity who made faithful decisions in the same direction, sublimating themselves for the gospel of Christ. Jeffrey appreciated the gentle yet convicting reflections and the emphasis on discernment and collaboration.

Empowering Laity in Church Revitalization

Jeffrey and Zach discuss the importance of empowering laity in church revitalization efforts. Zach emphasizes that laity should discover their spiritual gifts and lead ministries with discernment and accountability. He explains that Dirt Roads Network helps churches discern their values, see themselves as missionaries, and create action plans through revitalization programs and coaching. They also facilitate church planting by networking rural churches. Zach highlights that their focus is on greater obedience to God's will over worldly success metrics. He stresses the importance of spiritual practices and discerning the Holy Spirit's leading for the church.

Rural Church Revitalization and Multiplication

Jeffrey and Zach discussed their shared passion for rural church revitalization and multiplication. Zach shared his work with the Dirt Roads Network, which is self-funded and offers affordable services to churches. They also discussed the importance of obedience over success and the value of strong marriages and families. Zach mentioned his wife's role in reminding him to prioritize obedience over success. Jeffrey expressed his interest in helping Zach and others in their rural ministry efforts and suggested a series of conversations about the virtues of small town, rural living. They agreed to stay in touch and Zach offered to send Jeffrey a picture and any necessary resources for the show notes.

I wanted to speak with Vatroslav because I think it is important for folks in America to do our part to understand the different contexts in which Christianity is working to minister to the people of various parts of the world. A previous conversation with Daniel Topalski of Bulgaria was helpful in getting some needed theology and history. Vatroslav builds on a similar foundation. Those who watch this segment will grow in knowledge of the history of Europe, a somewhat different portrait of the strengths of the Methodist heritage than what is commonly said in America, and a better knowledge of how to pray for our brothers and sisters in Europe.

Website for the Global Methodist Church in Croatia - https://metodisti.hr/en/

WCA Website for Vatroslav's writings - https://www.wesleyancovenant.eu/author/vatroslav-zupancic/

My previous reporting on Anathema Statement -

Summary from Riverside.fm

In this conversation, Jeffrey Rickman and Vatroslav Župancic explore the identity and challenges of the Global Methodist Church, particularly in the context of Eastern Europe. Vatroslav shares his personal journey from Roman Catholicism to Methodism, influenced by his experiences during the Croatian war and the theological landscape in Germany. They discuss the importance of tradition in Methodism, the impact of liberalism, and the need for a strong theological foundation in the face of modern social issues. The conversation highlights the unique position of conservative Methodists in Europe and their commitment to bridging traditional and evangelical movements. In this conversation, Jeffrey Rickman and Vatroslav Župancic discuss the complexities of modern Israel, the rise of nationalism in Europe, and the ecumenical movements within the church. They explore the challenges of church planting in Croatia, the structure and presence of the Global Methodist Church in Eastern Europe, and the importance of theological education. The dialogue emphasizes the need for a strong biblical foundation, the role of tradition in Methodism, and the call for holiness and moral clarity in the face of societal changes. They conclude with a call to support the Global Methodist Church in Europe through prayer and partnership.

Link to David deSilva's "Christian Faith and Doctrine: An Annotated Catechism for the Global Methodist Church" - https://my.seedbed.com/product/christian-faith-and-doctrine-an-annotated-catechism-for-the-global-methodist-church/

For previous conversation on human sexuality in the ancient Roman world -

Partial Summary by Zoom's AI Assistant:

David and Jeffrey discuss David's background and his transition from the Episcopal Church to Methodism. David shares that he became acquainted with Wesleyan doctrine during his doctoral studies at Emory University and found it captured the scriptural vision for discipleship and church well. He has been a United Methodist elder since 1995. David also mentions his early love for Scripture since he was a preteen. They then talk about Ashland Theological Seminary's partnership with the Global Methodist Church. The conversation focuses on David's experience and Ashland's role in serving the next generation of Global Methodism.

Jeffrey agreed with David's thoughts around theological education and suggested that the annotated catechism could help people understand the authentic Wesleyan vision and the importance of being a covenant community rather than a club.

David and Jeffrey discussed their differing views on atonement theory, particularly penal substitutionary atonement. David expressed his belief that this theory has risen to prominence at the expense of other scriptural expressions of Christ's spiritual achievement on the cross. He emphasized the importance of seeing God's action in Christ as a way of extending welcome and embrace to a distant and alienated humanity. Jeffrey, on the other hand, argued that penal substitutionary atonement is a crucial aspect of understanding salvation, as it involves God assuming all roles necessary for salvation, including the sacrifice and the wrathful, angry God.

They discussed the importance of examining and re-evaluating the theological foundations of the Global Methodist Church (GMC). They agreed that the church needs to revisit its doctrines and practices, particularly those that have been inherited from the United Methodist Church (UMC). They highlighted the need for a more robust Biblical hermeneutic and the importance of understanding the vision of the church. They also discussed the need for members to immerse themselves in John Wesley's sermons and theology to better understand the Methodist movement. The conversation ended with a discussion on the language used in the catechism, with David emphasizing the importance of receiving the Holy Bible as the true rule and guide for faith and practice.

They discussed the authority of Scripture and the dangers of swinging too far in either direction. David expressed his concerns about affirming inerrancy, emphasizing that the text should always be more important than doctrines about it. He also criticized the United Methodist Church for disregarding parts of Scripture in their practice. Jeffrey agreed with David's critique and asked for examples of leaders who embody honesty before God and Scripture. David, being out of touch with the political scene of leadership, couldn't provide specific names but mentioned Craig Keener as an example of a scholar who lets the text and spirit guide him.

Concerns Over Sin and Grace

Jeffrey and David discussed their concerns about the doctrine of sin and the potential for Pelagianism in the Methodist Church. Jeffrey expressed worry about the church's comfort with the Biblical doctrine of sin, particularly in relation to sexuality. David agreed, noting that many in the church were championing Pelagianism and celebrating humanity's capacity for good. They discussed the concept of prevenient grace, with David arguing that it doesn't imply a specific point at which God's grace intervenes in a person's life. Instead, it emphasizes God's generosity and the availability of salvation to all. They also discussed the importance of acknowledging wrongdoing and the role of conscience in repentance and returning to God. Jeffrey and David agreed that the critique of Andrew was valid, but they also acknowledged the potential for differing interpretations of prevenient grace.

Cultivating Humility and Gratitude in Faith

Jeffrey and David discussed the importance of acknowledging one's own depravity and sinfulness in order to cultivate humility and gratitude towards God. They agreed that without a proper appreciation of their own sin, gratitude towards God would be lacking. David emphasized the need to identify specific points of non-alignment with God's vision and to understand the ugliness of their own sin. They also discussed the role of the Holy Spirit in leading them into all truth and holiness, and the importance of living as those who believe. The conversation concluded with a prayer for the audience, asking for help in becoming vital communities of disciples where God's transformation is seen in their lives.

Rev. Dr. Kevin Watson is a fellow Methodist from Oklahoma. He has a heart for equipping the church, especially her clergy, for ministry. Out of this passion, he straddles both the academy and the church, serving both Asbury Theological Seminary and Asbury Church (a former UM local church) in Tulsa. 

Kevin recently published a book on Methodist history, and I thought it was time to pick his brain about some themes I have wondered about. In this conversation, we cover topics related to proper and faithful training of Methodist clergy, especially in light of the unfortunate developments over the last century or so in mainline Methodist seminaries. We talk about the authentic nature and hallmarks of the Methodist movement, the call of discipleship at the present moment, the failures of leadership in mainstream religious practice in the West, the nature of holiness, and several other connected issues drawn from history.

If you haven't already, you need to order his book: "Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline: A History of the Wesleyan Tradition in the United States." You can order it at Zondervan here - https://zondervanacademic.com/doctrine-spirit-and-discipline and plenty of other booksellers.

You can read some of Dr. Watson's other writings at his website: www.kevinmwatson.com.

The other books I referenced have links, too. 

1) The Class Meeting is found at https://my.seedbed.com/product/class-meeting-by-kevin-watson/

2) The Band Meeting is found at https://my.seedbed.com/product/the-band-meeting/

Dr. Mark Olson is the author of a new book called "John Wesley’s Doctrine of Justification," which is an excellent resource, rich in theology and history. This conversation is broadly a reconstruction of a lot of the mechanics of how Wesleyan theology works, helping to flesh out what important aspects of this foundational theology need to be claimed in the moment.

Dr. Olson's Website - www.wesleyscholar.com

Dr. Olson's Book - https://a.co/d/7ZF4A9W

Dr. Olson's Bio

Dr. Mark K. Olson grew up in the Pacific Northwest and served in pastorates at Vancouver, WA, and Antioch, CA. He and Ruth have five children and twelve grandchildren.

Dr. Olson did his undergraduate work at Taylor University, obtained a Master of Divinity at Nazarene Theological Seminary, and earned a Doctorate in Theology at the University of Manchester, UK. Since 2012 Dr. Olson teaches on bible, theology, and philosophy at Indiana Wesleyan University, Nazarene Bible College, and West Africa Theological Seminary. He also writes courses in historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Olson also serves as research assistant for the Manchester Wesley Research Centre (UK) and as a teaching fellow for One Mission Society (onemissionsociety.org).

Summary composed by Zoom's AI Companion: 

Understanding Justification in Christianity

Jeffrey and Mark discussed the importance of understanding the concept of justification in Christianity. Jeffrey shared his understanding of justification, likening it to a courtroom scenario where a guilty person is pardoned by a perfect judge who pays the price for their crimes. mark agreed with this definition and emphasized its significance in the Evangelical church. They both agreed that understanding justification correctly is crucial for Christians, as it helps them comprehend their relationship with God and the consequences of their sins. They also touched on the practicality of this concept, with Mark suggesting that it can guide Christians in their daily lives and interactions with others.

Methodist Theology and Justification Discussion

Mark and Jeffrey discussed the theological perspectives of John Wesley and the Methodist Church on the concept of justification and atonement. They explored the differences between Calvinist and Arminian views, with Mark emphasizing John Wesley's belief in the general atonement of Christ and the importance of good works in demonstrating genuine faith. Jeffrey clarified the Arminian understanding of justification, emphasizing that it involves God's forgiveness of sins, acceptance in Christ, and the possibility of living an abundant life through serving Jesus. They also touched on the global Methodist Church's ongoing conversation about the nature of holiness.

Christian Perfection and Historical Context

Mark and Jeffrey discussed the concept of Christian perfection, its historical context, and its evolution over time. They agreed that Christian perfection refers to a state of wholehearted love and devotion to God, where believers overcome voluntary sins but may still experience involuntary shortcomings. They also discussed the differences in understanding Christian experience and human nature between John Wesley's time and the present day, emphasizing the importance of understanding these differences to better comprehend the original audience's beliefs. Mark highlighted the influence of cultural and psychological factors on the interpretation of Christian experience, while Jeffrey stressed the need for a corrective to modern-day Western presuppositions. They concluded that while there are differences in understanding between then and now, it is essential to understand the original audience's beliefs and context.

Wesley's Theological Concepts and Atonement

Jeffrey and Mark discussed the theological concepts of penal substitutionary atonement and double justification in the context of John Wesley's teachings. They agreed that John Wesley, an Anglican, believed in the penal substitutionary theory of atonement, which was the dominant theory among Protestant denominations at the time. However, they also noted that Wesley interpreted this theory differently from high Calvinists, emphasizing that Jesus' death was for the general salvation of all people, not just the elect. They also discussed the concept of double justification, where the subjective experience of the blood of Christ being applied to one's heart is followed by an objective, final public pronouncement of one's eternal state at the final judgment. They emphasized the importance of living a holy life and the need for continuous growth in holiness to maintain a right relationship with God.

Wesley's Beliefs on Infant Baptism

Jeffrey and Mark discussed John Wesley's beliefs on infant baptism and baptismal regeneration. Mark explained that Wesley believed infants baptized receive initial justification from the guilt of original sin and are regenerated. However, as they grow up, they lose this salvation due to voluntary sinning. Wesley did not believe that the guilt of original sin alone would send someone to hell. They also discussed the importance of core convictions in being a Methodist or Wesleyan, such as original sin, justification, and holiness of heart and life. Jeffrey questioned the significance of infant baptism in Wesley's core theology, to which Mark responded that it was not a core principle.

Theological Perspectives on Salvation

Mark and Jeffrey discuss the order and process of salvation from different theological perspectives. Mark emphasizes that God ultimately wants a relationship with each person, though the journey may look different for individuals. He believes God is sovereign and infinite, working in people's lives to bring them to salvation and sanctification. Jeffrey raises concerns about the Arminian view of God having desires that can be denied, preferring the Calvinist view of God's self-sufficiency. However, they find common ground in God's faithfulness and personal involvement in people's lives despite his transcendence. They acknowledge the tension between God's sovereignty and human free will, seeking a synthesis beyond the Arminian-Calvinist divide.

Strengthening Original Sin Doctrine

Jeffrey and Mark discussed the need for a stronger doctrine of original sin and justification within the Methodist and Wesleyan traditions. Mark expressed concern about the church's weakness and compromise with culture, attributing this to a weak doctrine of original sin. He emphasized the importance of recognizing one's badness and the unmerited nature of God's grace. Mark also highlighted the need for the church to stand separate from the world and to have a prophetic voice in culture. Jeffrey agreed with Mark's points and concluded the discussion by encouraging reflection on the church's teachings and practices.

Wesley's Theology and Justification Discussed

In the conversation, Mark discussed his book on John Wesley's theology, particularly his views on justification. He outlined the book's structure, covering the historical background, Wesley's life, his understanding of justification, and his views on baptism for infants. Mark also touched on Wesley's concept of degrees of justification and his inclusivism, which suggests that God's grace can reach out to people who have never heard the gospel. Jeffrey expressed his concerns about the potential implications of these views and appreciated Mark's work. They ended the conversation with a prayer.

Steve Cordle is the Executive Director of The River Network. The Global Methodist Church has partnered with him and his ministry in order to equip clergy and laity to be and make disciples, laboring in the Lord's harvest in this present age.

Steve was and is a prodigious clergyman, having made disciples and grown churches for decades while raising children with a godly wife.

In this conversation, Steve talks about his ministry, laying out his theological framework. We review his recent article in Firebrand "Can the Global Methodist Church Become a Movement?" (https://firebrandmag.com/articles/can-the-global-methodist-church-become-a-movement), and we talk about practical ways that his ministry can come alongside local churches and their leaders to change the culture, working to revert our institutions back into movements.

Consider spending some time with us, and follow up with Steve if you want to learn more: https://www.rivernetwork.org

Cathy Holley is the pastor at New Covenant Church in Wichita, Kansas. She and many believers in the area of multiple churches facilitate ministries with the local poor. Cathy has followed the prompting of the Lord to create a ministry that is not only compassionate towards the poor, but is engaged in good theology throughout. The reality is that helping the poor is very difficult. Take the time to learn about her ministry and some of the wisdom she can offer.

If you want to learn more about her ministry, or come alongside her and support her worthy efforts, go to https://www.newcovchurch.us/donate/

Scriptural interpretation has been a dividing (and uniting) issue among Christians going back to the very beginnings of the church catholic (universal). While Protestants left the Roman Catholic Church because of the alternate sources of authority used to subvert the scriptures, not all Protestant covenant bodies are of one mind about the role that other sources of authority play in the lives of individuals and local churches.

The United Methodist Church fell apart because the authoritative sources for doctrine and knowledge of God became too broad and schizophrenic. Those of us who left have hoped for a shared worldview that will bind us together. Much of this has to do with a submissive posture we should hold to the scriptures.

It is one thing to say that, but quite another to live that. Many people who claim to read the ‘plain meaning’ of scripture happen to disagree about a number of things. Moreover, there is this concept sometimes called the ‘consensual tradition,’ which hypothetically offers a trustworthy lens through which to read the scriptures.

Can we read the scriptures without a mediating lens? Can the Methodist tradition develop or revert into a more scripturally-faithful tradition? We cover these topics and a lot more in this conversation. Buckle up.

Our society has been going through a long revision of how we understand identity, sexuality, and transformation to work. It is notoriously hard for one to facilitate one’s own transformation on any number of fronts. Self control is a supernatural fruit of the spirit.

In this conversation, Debra picks up where she left off after the conversation we had a couple weeks ago. You should watch that one if you haven’t already so that you can know her background.

You should also read the article that spurred this conversation, as it lays the groundwork for the thought around how it is that Christians can lovingly help in the lives of people dealing with unwanted sexual feelings.

As I said last time, these aren’t issues that the church can afford to ignore or avoid. We need to equip ourselves to articulate the Christian faith and the vision for the good life in this life, especially when our notion of the good life flies in the face of the vision the world offers.

Link to article - https://firebrandmag.com/articles/sexual-fluidity-and-the-wesleyan-doctrine-of-entire-sanctification-part-2-ministry-past-present-and-future?