PlainSpoken

Rev. Dr. Kevin Watson is a fellow Methodist from Oklahoma. He has a heart for equipping the church, especially her clergy, for ministry. Out of this passion, he straddles both the academy and the church, serving both Asbury Theological Seminary and Asbury Church (a former UM local church) in Tulsa. 

Kevin recently published a book on Methodist history, and I thought it was time to pick his brain about some themes I have wondered about. In this conversation, we cover topics related to proper and faithful training of Methodist clergy, especially in light of the unfortunate developments over the last century or so in mainline Methodist seminaries. We talk about the authentic nature and hallmarks of the Methodist movement, the call of discipleship at the present moment, the failures of leadership in mainstream religious practice in the West, the nature of holiness, and several other connected issues drawn from history.

If you haven't already, you need to order his book: "Doctrine, Spirit, and Discipline: A History of the Wesleyan Tradition in the United States." You can order it at Zondervan here - https://zondervanacademic.com/doctrine-spirit-and-discipline and plenty of other booksellers.

You can read some of Dr. Watson's other writings at his website: www.kevinmwatson.com.

The other books I referenced have links, too. 

1) The Class Meeting is found at https://my.seedbed.com/product/class-meeting-by-kevin-watson/

2) The Band Meeting is found at https://my.seedbed.com/product/the-band-meeting/

Dr. Mark Olson is the author of a new book called "John Wesley’s Doctrine of Justification," which is an excellent resource, rich in theology and history. This conversation is broadly a reconstruction of a lot of the mechanics of how Wesleyan theology works, helping to flesh out what important aspects of this foundational theology need to be claimed in the moment.

Dr. Olson's Website - www.wesleyscholar.com

Dr. Olson's Book - https://a.co/d/7ZF4A9W

Dr. Olson's Bio

Dr. Mark K. Olson grew up in the Pacific Northwest and served in pastorates at Vancouver, WA, and Antioch, CA. He and Ruth have five children and twelve grandchildren.

Dr. Olson did his undergraduate work at Taylor University, obtained a Master of Divinity at Nazarene Theological Seminary, and earned a Doctorate in Theology at the University of Manchester, UK. Since 2012 Dr. Olson teaches on bible, theology, and philosophy at Indiana Wesleyan University, Nazarene Bible College, and West Africa Theological Seminary. He also writes courses in historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Olson also serves as research assistant for the Manchester Wesley Research Centre (UK) and as a teaching fellow for One Mission Society (onemissionsociety.org).

Summary composed by Zoom's AI Companion: 

Understanding Justification in Christianity

Jeffrey and Mark discussed the importance of understanding the concept of justification in Christianity. Jeffrey shared his understanding of justification, likening it to a courtroom scenario where a guilty person is pardoned by a perfect judge who pays the price for their crimes. mark agreed with this definition and emphasized its significance in the Evangelical church. They both agreed that understanding justification correctly is crucial for Christians, as it helps them comprehend their relationship with God and the consequences of their sins. They also touched on the practicality of this concept, with Mark suggesting that it can guide Christians in their daily lives and interactions with others.

Methodist Theology and Justification Discussion

Mark and Jeffrey discussed the theological perspectives of John Wesley and the Methodist Church on the concept of justification and atonement. They explored the differences between Calvinist and Arminian views, with Mark emphasizing John Wesley's belief in the general atonement of Christ and the importance of good works in demonstrating genuine faith. Jeffrey clarified the Arminian understanding of justification, emphasizing that it involves God's forgiveness of sins, acceptance in Christ, and the possibility of living an abundant life through serving Jesus. They also touched on the global Methodist Church's ongoing conversation about the nature of holiness.

Christian Perfection and Historical Context

Mark and Jeffrey discussed the concept of Christian perfection, its historical context, and its evolution over time. They agreed that Christian perfection refers to a state of wholehearted love and devotion to God, where believers overcome voluntary sins but may still experience involuntary shortcomings. They also discussed the differences in understanding Christian experience and human nature between John Wesley's time and the present day, emphasizing the importance of understanding these differences to better comprehend the original audience's beliefs. Mark highlighted the influence of cultural and psychological factors on the interpretation of Christian experience, while Jeffrey stressed the need for a corrective to modern-day Western presuppositions. They concluded that while there are differences in understanding between then and now, it is essential to understand the original audience's beliefs and context.

Wesley's Theological Concepts and Atonement

Jeffrey and Mark discussed the theological concepts of penal substitutionary atonement and double justification in the context of John Wesley's teachings. They agreed that John Wesley, an Anglican, believed in the penal substitutionary theory of atonement, which was the dominant theory among Protestant denominations at the time. However, they also noted that Wesley interpreted this theory differently from high Calvinists, emphasizing that Jesus' death was for the general salvation of all people, not just the elect. They also discussed the concept of double justification, where the subjective experience of the blood of Christ being applied to one's heart is followed by an objective, final public pronouncement of one's eternal state at the final judgment. They emphasized the importance of living a holy life and the need for continuous growth in holiness to maintain a right relationship with God.

Wesley's Beliefs on Infant Baptism

Jeffrey and Mark discussed John Wesley's beliefs on infant baptism and baptismal regeneration. Mark explained that Wesley believed infants baptized receive initial justification from the guilt of original sin and are regenerated. However, as they grow up, they lose this salvation due to voluntary sinning. Wesley did not believe that the guilt of original sin alone would send someone to hell. They also discussed the importance of core convictions in being a Methodist or Wesleyan, such as original sin, justification, and holiness of heart and life. Jeffrey questioned the significance of infant baptism in Wesley's core theology, to which Mark responded that it was not a core principle.

Theological Perspectives on Salvation

Mark and Jeffrey discuss the order and process of salvation from different theological perspectives. Mark emphasizes that God ultimately wants a relationship with each person, though the journey may look different for individuals. He believes God is sovereign and infinite, working in people's lives to bring them to salvation and sanctification. Jeffrey raises concerns about the Arminian view of God having desires that can be denied, preferring the Calvinist view of God's self-sufficiency. However, they find common ground in God's faithfulness and personal involvement in people's lives despite his transcendence. They acknowledge the tension between God's sovereignty and human free will, seeking a synthesis beyond the Arminian-Calvinist divide.

Strengthening Original Sin Doctrine

Jeffrey and Mark discussed the need for a stronger doctrine of original sin and justification within the Methodist and Wesleyan traditions. Mark expressed concern about the church's weakness and compromise with culture, attributing this to a weak doctrine of original sin. He emphasized the importance of recognizing one's badness and the unmerited nature of God's grace. Mark also highlighted the need for the church to stand separate from the world and to have a prophetic voice in culture. Jeffrey agreed with Mark's points and concluded the discussion by encouraging reflection on the church's teachings and practices.

Wesley's Theology and Justification Discussed

In the conversation, Mark discussed his book on John Wesley's theology, particularly his views on justification. He outlined the book's structure, covering the historical background, Wesley's life, his understanding of justification, and his views on baptism for infants. Mark also touched on Wesley's concept of degrees of justification and his inclusivism, which suggests that God's grace can reach out to people who have never heard the gospel. Jeffrey expressed his concerns about the potential implications of these views and appreciated Mark's work. They ended the conversation with a prayer.

Steve Cordle is the Executive Director of The River Network. The Global Methodist Church has partnered with him and his ministry in order to equip clergy and laity to be and make disciples, laboring in the Lord's harvest in this present age.

Steve was and is a prodigious clergyman, having made disciples and grown churches for decades while raising children with a godly wife.

In this conversation, Steve talks about his ministry, laying out his theological framework. We review his recent article in Firebrand "Can the Global Methodist Church Become a Movement?" (https://firebrandmag.com/articles/can-the-global-methodist-church-become-a-movement), and we talk about practical ways that his ministry can come alongside local churches and their leaders to change the culture, working to revert our institutions back into movements.

Consider spending some time with us, and follow up with Steve if you want to learn more: https://www.rivernetwork.org

Cathy Holley is the pastor at New Covenant Church in Wichita, Kansas. She and many believers in the area of multiple churches facilitate ministries with the local poor. Cathy has followed the prompting of the Lord to create a ministry that is not only compassionate towards the poor, but is engaged in good theology throughout. The reality is that helping the poor is very difficult. Take the time to learn about her ministry and some of the wisdom she can offer.

If you want to learn more about her ministry, or come alongside her and support her worthy efforts, go to https://www.newcovchurch.us/donate/

Scriptural interpretation has been a dividing (and uniting) issue among Christians going back to the very beginnings of the church catholic (universal). While Protestants left the Roman Catholic Church because of the alternate sources of authority used to subvert the scriptures, not all Protestant covenant bodies are of one mind about the role that other sources of authority play in the lives of individuals and local churches.

The United Methodist Church fell apart because the authoritative sources for doctrine and knowledge of God became too broad and schizophrenic. Those of us who left have hoped for a shared worldview that will bind us together. Much of this has to do with a submissive posture we should hold to the scriptures.

It is one thing to say that, but quite another to live that. Many people who claim to read the ‘plain meaning’ of scripture happen to disagree about a number of things. Moreover, there is this concept sometimes called the ‘consensual tradition,’ which hypothetically offers a trustworthy lens through which to read the scriptures.

Can we read the scriptures without a mediating lens? Can the Methodist tradition develop or revert into a more scripturally-faithful tradition? We cover these topics and a lot more in this conversation. Buckle up.

Our society has been going through a long revision of how we understand identity, sexuality, and transformation to work. It is notoriously hard for one to facilitate one’s own transformation on any number of fronts. Self control is a supernatural fruit of the spirit.

In this conversation, Debra picks up where she left off after the conversation we had a couple weeks ago. You should watch that one if you haven’t already so that you can know her background.

You should also read the article that spurred this conversation, as it lays the groundwork for the thought around how it is that Christians can lovingly help in the lives of people dealing with unwanted sexual feelings.

As I said last time, these aren’t issues that the church can afford to ignore or avoid. We need to equip ourselves to articulate the Christian faith and the vision for the good life in this life, especially when our notion of the good life flies in the face of the vision the world offers.

Link to article - https://firebrandmag.com/articles/sexual-fluidity-and-the-wesleyan-doctrine-of-entire-sanctification-part-2-ministry-past-present-and-future?

World Methodist Evangelism is a group that I started seeing a year or so ago. It was clear to me that they were serving the Methodists in some fashion, but I haven't been entirely clear about how. Rev. Dr. Kim Reisman is the chair of their organization. She was kind enough to accept an invitation to talk about what she and her organization do. I learned a lot!

WME Website - https://worldmethodist.org/ Kim's most recent book - https://www.christianbook.com/embrace-showing-sharing-the-love-jesus/9781791023584/pd/023584

Tyson is a Heartland Conference friend who has served on a couple different levels of the Global Methodist structure. He is actually part of the Global Episcopacy Committee, which recently announced the assigned conferences for each of our eight bishops. He has also faithfully led his church through disaffiliation from the UMC and into their current greener pastures.

He works for a nuclear power plant, and he promotes a couple of transformational ministries in his context. In this conversation, I get the story of his church leaving the UMC, the play-by-play of how his committee accomplished the daunting task of managing these bishops, and I learned some about these ministries that have been so transformative in his life.

Tyson is a great representative of what lay leadership should look like. I hope many people receive encouragement from him.

Links: Tyson's Church - https://ebenezeratolpe.org/, https://www.facebook.com/EbenezeratOlpe, & https://www.youtube.com/@ebenezerchurch9598

Feed Christ’s Lambs - https://www.feedchristslambs.org/, https://www.facebook.com/FeedChristsLambs, & https://www.youtube.com/@feedchristslambs8261

Encounter the Cross - https://www.encounterthecross.com/

The context of contemporary American Christianity is daunting. Scattered across the landscape are thousands of small rural churches, carrying the banner for Jesus. They are surrounded by increasingly unchurched unbelievers. Unable to afford clergy and unsure of how to follow Jesus rightly, many sit in anomie and confusion.

Joshua and his brothers in arms have joined together to minister to churches just like this, becoming encouragers to local laity as they prepare the groundwork for effective continued mission in their rural contexts. Drawing on the Anglican and Methodist heritage, they have stepped up to meet the need of this present moment.

I reached out to Joshua because this very much meets the Global Methodist Church where it is. We need to be thinking about church planting, hosting revivals, and facilitating networks of circuit riding clergy. This is my attempt to help lay leadership and their churches to start thinking about ways forward. I'm also hoping that GMC leadership intentionally fosters such a connection and facilitates a future church multiplication movement that is largely based on this model.

Links: Barnabas Conference Website - https://www.barnabasconference.com/? Email Address - [email protected]

Phil Greenwald is the President of Mid-America Christian University (MACU). He began his tenure at Mid-America Christian University on June 1, 2022 and was officially installed as the institution’s 5th President during an Investiture Ceremony on October 10, 2022.

Since being selected by the MACU Board of Trustees in March 2022, President Greenwald has cast a vision with students, faculty, staff, alumni, and community leaders by asking the question, “Wouldn’t it be great if?”

During his first two years as President, Greenwald has met with hundreds of people on campus and in the community to listen and learn, including welcoming students into the family’s home. In his first two years of presidency, Greenwald has led MACU to significant growth, including a 17% increase in enrollment.

For more than 25 years, President Greenwald served as a key executive, non-profit leader, pastor, and administrator. He came to MACU from St. Luke’s Methodist Church in Oklahoma City, where he served as Executive Pastor of Administration and Chief Financial Officer.  He provided strategic leadership to the St. Luke’s Foundation, Meals on Wheels OKC, and the St. Luke’s Children’s Centers.

In this segment, he and talk about MACU and the ways in which it is positioned to serve the needs of the Global Methodist Church and other Wesleyan bodies, equipping this next generation of clergy and Christian leadership for the work to be done.

Link to college website - https://www.macu.edu/