Across the next two episodes of PGAP, we will be showcasing the good work from CASSE NSW Inc., who are advocating for the steady state economy in Australia.

For this episode, we interview Phil Jones, Treasurer and Secretary, as he shares with us the progress of government reports and inquiries into the Circular Economy. Furthermore, why it is crucial that we encourage the government to take serious action in implementing the circular economy, rather than letting their reports gather dust in Canberra.

We discuss two reports in particular:

The circular economy is defined by Wikipepdia as: “a model of resource production and consumption in any economy that involves sharing, leasing, reusing, repairing, refurbishing, and recycling existing materials and products for as long as possible.”

Phil is positive with the potential for the rollout of the circular economy in Australia, especially in its capacity to catalyse existing initiatives such as recycling programs, repair cafes, second hand exchange initiatives, etc. However, he cautions that the circular economy is alone insufficient in achieving true sustainability unless it is coupled with the Steady State Economy. That is, "an economy made up of a constant stock of physical wealth (capital) and a constant population size, which does grow over the course of time".

The episode concludes with a call to action to get some real and action in response to these reports. A good place to start is by signing the CASSE NSW INC petition to establish a Federal government inquiry into the steady state economy.

Did you like this episode and want to explore further?

You may be interested in PGAP’s first ever episode with Steady State ACT, or with CASSE’s international director Brian Czech. We also discussed the New Economy Network Australia on the episode, so you may be interested in PGAP’s coverage of the 2023 NENA conference (sadly, I didn’t get around to recording Phil’s excellent talk).

You can find out more about Phil and CASSE NSW in the Sustainable Population Australia Newsletter November 2024. Speaking of SPA, who proudly support PGAP, please consider signing their position statement, calling for an end to population growth in Australia.

You can also support PGAP by sharing this or other episodes with your networks. Encourage the online community to listen to PGAP by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcast. On the PGAP website, you can subscribe or contact us, as we appreciate your invaluable feedback and suggestions.

All perspectives of PGAP guests, including legacy past, present and future, are exclusively theirs and do not always reflect the perspectives or working of PGAP or SPA.

Special Guest: Phil Jones.

In the lead up to World Population Day (WPD) 2025, we welcome back Val Allen, who was previously a panel guest for the PGAP episode “3 Women 2 Countries 1 Message: World Population Day 2022.”

Three years later, Val has a new book out – “HOW MANY IS ENOUGH?” -just in time for World Population Day 25. She is also in the process of finalising a new documentary “TICK TOCK BOOM BANG” due later this month, which she has produced along with Nick Bohle of HatChap productions.

In this mini episode, Val shares her recent very busy journey in creating content across multiple media and her reflections on a world that has changed immensely in the three years since Val was last guest on PGAP.

Valorie Allen has been an activist for 35 years in the environmental, population and animal rights movements, receiving the Canadian Volunteer Award. Her first award-winning book “Growing Pains—A Planet in Distress” was published in 2010.

A trailer for ‘Tik Tok Boom Bang’ may be watched at the HatChap productions website HERE

Valorie Allen’s latest book ‘How Many Is Enough?’ is available from Amazon for Kindle HERE.

You can keep up to date with Val’s latest projects from her website Population In Sync.

Sustainable Population Australia, who support PGAP, have launched a media release in anticipation for World Population Day, which may be read in full from the SPA website. It includes quotes from SPA patrons Prof. Anne Poelina and Dr. Paul Collins, both previous guests on PGAP.

During this episode, Val refers to the chilling article from the Independent, “There could be billions more people on Earth than previously thought” which could be a consequence as a result of under counting rural populations.

PGAP will never run ads and our success depends on word of mouth from our dedicated community. Please consider sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your networks. Or rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast. We welcome you to subscribe or to contact us with your feedback, opinions and topic recommendations for future episodes.

Special Guest: Valorie Allen.

In this episode of PGAP, we’re joined by Michael D.B. Harvey, author of "The Age of Humachines: Big Tech and the Battle for Humanity’s Future." Harvey offers a sobering perspective on the trajectory of modern technology - not towards a Star Trek-style utopia but into a hyper-neoliberal, corporate-driven dystopia shaped by Big Tech. His analysis strikes a chord with the Post-Growth community, which has long challenged the illusion that technology alone can rescue us from our social and ecological crises.

Yet, Harvey is not fatalistic. He envisions a radically different future that is grounded in degrowth, steady-state economics, and a shared commitment to equity and ecological sustainability. The Age of Humachines explores how today’s tech revolution increasingly shapes every aspect of our lives, introducing critical concepts like the Technocene (the possible successor to the Anthropocene), Smartheid societies, and CIMENT, a term Harvey uses to describe the dominant values of Competitive Individualism and Materialist Entitlement.

In contrast, he proposes a new framework: SEWP (Sustainable, Equitable Wellbeing Planetwide), offering offering a hopeful lens through which we might transition toward an Ecocene future.

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Michael D.B. Harvey holds qualifications in English Literature, Sociology, Psychology, Psychotherapy, and Organizational Psychology. He is also the author of Interactional Leadership: The Art of the Choice-Focused Leader and Utopia in the Anthropocene: A Change Plan for a Sustainable and Equitable World.

Harvey’s connections include the Centre for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy (CASSE), who helped make this interview possible.

If this episode resonated with you, we highly recommend picking up a copy of The Age of Humachines [HERE], and checking out Harvey’s engaging talks and interviews on YouTube, e.g. [HERE].

Michael is also a musician, performing solo and withhis band Bridges of Sound. This episode features a sample of his song “Standing Up for Being Human.”

We’d love to hear your thoughts on the future of technology. Reach out to PGAP through our contact form, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, and share this episode with your networks.

You can find out more about PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen [HERE] and Michael Bayliss [HERE].

Episode Timestamp:

00:00 - Introduction with Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss

Please note: The views expressed by PGAP guests are their own and may not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or Sustainable Population Australia (SPA), who support this podcast.

Special Guest: Michael DB Harvey.

In this latest episode we speak with scientist, researcher and author George Tsakraklides about the deeper roots of humanity’s many crises. Drawing on his rich scientific background and corporate insight, George explores how our evolutionary wiring, societal structures and cultural narratives hinder meaningful change. We unpack the psychological forces driving self-destruction, the limitations of rational thought and the need to reconnect with a deeper sense of being. From the inherited challenges of activism in a world of algorithms to the quiet strength of grounded action and grief, this conversation offers a powerful lens on navigating despair and cultivating meaning in a collapsing world.

George Tsakraklides is author of The Unhappiness Machine, In The Grip of Necrocapitalism, Beyond the Petri Dish, Frankenpolitics and other works exploring the deeper drivers of civilisational collapse and humanity’s self-destructive trajectory.

With degrees in molecular biology, chemistry, food science, and Earth sciences, George spent two decades in social research, data analytics, and global brand strategy, working with major multinationals, gaining insight into the inner workings of profit-driven systems.

After leaving the corporate world, George turned his focus to humanity’s broken relationship with nature and the repeating patterns of societal failure. This work has featured on Radio Ecoshock, Collapse Chronicles, Post-Doom Conversations and other platforms addressing environmental and civilisational crises.

In this episode, we dive into the intersection of science, philosophy and ecological activism, as explored in George’s latest book, Beyond the Petri Dish. We examine why rational thinking alone falls short and the importance of reconnecting with the expansive Infinity State, a realm beyond reason, to achieve full embodiment.

The conversation also delves into the psychological and societal forces steering humanity away from ecological wisdom, including the role of social media in fuelling addictive, reactionary behaviours. We critique the environmental movement’s entanglement with growth-based paradigms and explore the need for a more honest, existential reckoning with what it means to be human in an age of collapse.

From the pitfalls of call-out culture in activism to the quiet power of tending a conservation garden, we reflect on the value of small, grounded acts in a world that often feels overwhelming. Finally, we explore the role of grief, acceptance and grounded hope in moving beyond paralysis, offering insight for those struggling with eco-anxiety and despair.

For those who want to explore George’s work further, you can check out his website HERE.

You can also find George on Substack here: (1) The George Tsakraklides View | Substack

George’s latest articles on Substack are all recommended and highly pertinent to this episode. Some examples include:

George also has an Instagram page where you can view his garden restoration among other things.

In this episode we also discuss how George’s work connects with Holistic Activism. You can read/download the 2025 edition of the Holistic Activism Booklet HERE.

Please feel welcome to support the work of PGAP through subscribing, through sharing this and other episodes with your networks, or by rating and leaving a review on Apple podcast or your favourite platform. We also welcome your feedback and ideas. Please contact us anytime on our contact form here.

Post Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP) is made possible by the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA). All opinions, past work and legacies of our guests so not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or SPA.

Special Guest: George Tsakraklides.

Susie Russell is a long-time activist and campaigner for protecting Australia’s forests who holds committee positions in The North East Forest Alliance, the North Coast Environment Council, 4Nature and The Rainforest Information Centre. Susie was awarded the Miles Dunphy Award in 2024 and soon after was arrested as part of the Save Bulga Forest movement for obstructing logging in endangered glider habitat.

In this episode we explore several critical issues including the persistent effects of growth-driven capitalism on the natural environment as well as the urgent need for deep, systemic change to avert impending ecological collapse.

Drawing on decades of experience in environmental and social justice activism, Susie goes on to offer a distinctive and holistic vision for a post-growth future where humanity can thrive in harmony with the natural world.

• For further reading, we recommend Susie’s interview with the Finding Courage publication: “Standing Up (Even When All Seems Lost).”

Many thanks to all of our listeners for your support. You are welcome to support PGAP further by sharing this episode with your friends, family and networks. You are also welcome to rate and review us on Apple Podcast or your favourite podcast platform. You can send us your feedback, thoughts and suggestions on the PGAP Contact form. You can find out more about your PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss HERE and HERE.

Special Guest: Susie Russell.

In 2024, the University of New South Wales (UNSW) held a panel discussion on Degrowth as part of their Centre for Ideas series. The panellists were Tommy Wiedmann (Professor of Sustainability Research), Bronwen Morgan (Professor of Law and member of NENA), and Sabrina Chakori (CSIRO researcher). The discussion was hosted by former Deputy Lord Mayor and author of Glimpses of Utopia, Jess Scully. The panel explored sustainability and the urgent challenge of ensuring human needs are met without compromising a sustainable and inclusive future. With the kind permission of UNSW Centre for Ideas, the recording of this panel discussion is now available to listen to on the Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP).

Tommy Wiedmann has been a supporter of PGAP since our early days in 2021, so it was great to hear him in his element, sharing his research, knowledge, and ideas on Degrowth. We really appreciate Tommy and panel host Jess Scully giving PGAP a shout-out towards the end of the talk. We hope to return the favour by sharing this insightful discussion, which serves as an excellent introduction to Degrowth for those new to the topic. It is encouraging to see Degrowth becoming an openly discussed subject in Australian universities.

Tommy also wrote a very encouraging review for PGAP on Apple Podcast. We warmly invite you to add your review. This will help to broaden our outreach and encourage new listeners. Please also feel welcome to contact us with your feedback or suggestions for future episode topics.

Co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss share their thoughts on the panel discussion in the introduction and conclusion. For the most part, we align with the perspectives of the four panellists, but we also provide additional thoughts on how the Degrowth movement can incorporate concerns around population, which we briefly touch on in our commentary. For a more in-depth analysis, we encourage you to read the PGAP blog: “To populate or not to populate? How we can come together around the eternal debate of everyone’s favourite vexed issue.” We also encourage listening to two recent PGAP episodes on population, including Anne Poelina, who brings a First Nations’ perspective to the debate, and Isaac Kabongo, who brings a Ugandan/Global South perspective.

Regarding the discussion on population, Tommy cited two particularly relevant scientific articles, which are well worth reading:

We would like to thank UNSW, the Centre for Ideas, and all four speakers for allowing PGAP to re-release this outstanding panel discussion. The original podcast of this discussion is available to listen to on the Centre for Ideas website HERE.

All views, opinions, and legacies—past and present—of the panellists and UNSW Centre for Ideas are their own and may not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of PGAP (and vice versa).

Special Guests: Bronwen Morgan, Jess Scully, Sabrina Chakori, and Tommy Wiedmann.

Isaac Kabongo is the CEO of the Uganda-based Ecological Christian Organisation (ECO), a faith-driven initiative dedicated to fostering environmental stewardship at the grassroots level. ECO works to integrate sustainability with community-led action, including raising awareness about family planning and contraception. By reframing the relationship between Christianity, family planning, and discussions around population, the organisation provides an important bridge between faith and sustainability.

In addition to his leadership at ECO, Isaac has represented Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) at each international COP talk since 2012, playing a key role in shaping discussions on how the Global South and Global North can collaborate to address population related issues. A committed advocate for Degrowth and Ecological Sustainability, Isaac’s insights are a vital contribution to the post-growth movement.

As we are all aware, population sustainability remains a contentious issue. However, it is too often that the voices of experts from Global South communities remain unconsulted. In this episode, PGAP asks Isaac several pertinent questions relevant to the population debate, including:

"As a Ugandan citizen, how would you reassure the international community that it is a good thing that organisations within Australia and Uganda work together to address overpopulation in Uganda and other countries in the Global South?"

While Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) campaigns strongly on the domestic population issues facing Australia, less is known about the organisation’s commitment to the global stage. We hope this episode will be an inspiration on global partnerships in response to delivering on basic human rights such as access to family planning and reproductive healthcare.

Issac was interviwed for the SPA February 2025 Newsletter, which can be downloaded here.

For more PGAP episodes that explore Global South perspectives on population, we recommend our interviews with Women for Conversation (Colombia) and Florence Blondel (who is also from Uganda).

Please share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Also, feel welcome to rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast, subscribe to PGAP, or contact us with your feedback.

During this episode, we play the latest single from new West Australian band ‘Mobile Zebra’.

You can find out more about your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen here and here.

Special Guest: Isaac Kabongo.

In late 2024, Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) proudly welcomed Professor Anne Poelina as its newest Patron. This mini-episode features the audio recording from a video interview that co-host Michael Bayliss conducted with Anne as part of SPA's Meet the Patrons series.

An abridged version of this interview is available on YouTube.

As a Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner from the Kimberley region of Western Australia, Professor Poelina brings a profound commitment to integrating Indigenous First Australian wisdom into discussions on degrowth, population, and immigration policies. At PGAP, we strongly believe that First Nations perspectives are essential in shaping a collaborative path toward a more equitable and sustainable future.

Prof. Poelina's invitation to be Patron for SPA was partly inspired by her past interview on PGAP: "Saving the Martuwarra-Fitzroy river with Professor Anne Poelina".

You can read more about Anne at SPA's patron page HERE.

Anne is also the chair of the Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council and her work on water security aligns with SPA’s most recent discussion paper: “Big thirsty Australia: how population growth threatens our water security and sustainability.”

We’d love to hear your thoughts on this episode of PGAP! CONTACT US HERE with your feedback, ideas for future episodes, or suggestions for potential guests. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with your networks, leaving a review on APPLE PODCAST, or SUBSCRIBING.

You can find out more about your co-hosts Mark Allen HERE and Michael Bayliss HERE.

Special Guest: Prof. Anne Poelina.

In this episode of Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP), we pay tribute to Dr. John Coulter, who sadly passed away in September 2024. John Richard Coulter (3 December 1930 – 6 September 2024) was a trailblazer in the conservation movement, most notably serving as Leader of the Australian Democrats in the early 1990s. In 1971, he organised an open letter published in The Australian newspaper, addressed "to those who shape Australia’s destiny," urging them to recognise the limits to growth.

John remained an executive member of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) until the end of his life. Through SPA, he fearlessly challenged mainstream media for neglecting critical issues such as overpopulation and the limits to growth.

In 2021, PGAP had the privilege of interviewing John at his home in the Adelaide Hills. Unfortunately, a bushfire had swept through the property a few months earlier, leaving much of the land scarred. Walking through the devastated bushland was a sobering experience and a stark reminder of the profound changes occurring as society’s growth experiment entered the "decade of consequence."

This interview was originally broadcast in 2021 as part of the episode World Population Day 2021. For this memorial episode, we are re-releasing that conversation, as John’s thoughts, perspectives, and reflections resonate even more powerfully in retrospect. Co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss share their reflections on the interview and John’s legacy, particularly his pioneering work in the early 1970s for the broader post-growth movement.

A heartfelt tribute to John Coulter was penned by Dr Bob Brown:

"I was sad to hear of John Coulter’s death, but that sadness was quickly replaced by a celebration of John’s remarkable, life-long advocacy for the environment. In his time as the Democrats’ spokesperson, he was the major Australian political voice for protecting this nation’s wildlife, wild regions, and oceans, as well as promoting greener living for us all. He was a gentleman but unswerving in his devotion to life on Earth. South Australia and the nation are indebted to John for a long, caring, and actively eco-saving career."

One of John’s final articles, "The Guiding Criminal Lie in Economics", was published in Pearls and Irritations in 2024. A moving tribute in the same publication, "Vale Dr. John Coulter", was written by former SPA President Jenny Goldie. In April 2024, John was invited to become a Patron of SPA—a role that he very much cherished during the brief months before his passing.

The Post-Growth Australia Podcast will take a short break over the festive season before returning to Season Seven in January. In the meantime, we warmly encourage you to share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family, and networks.

You can rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, and we welcome your feedback, thoughts, and suggestions for future episodes. You can contact us HERE. Remember, podcasts are rapidly becoming a key medium for mass communication and influence in the modern age. It is vital that we work together to ensure the message of Degrowth reaches a wide audience.

To learn more about your PGAP co-hosts and their broader work, visit the respective websites for Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss.

PGAP is made possible by the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia.

Special Guest: John Coulter.

The aftermath of the US election has left many of us in a state of shock. Voters were faced with a stark choice between more growth-based neoliberalism or alt right extremism, choosing the latter. It was a great day for billionaires either way. As Australia looks to face a very similar choice in mid-2025, it is clear that activists must take stock, recalibrate and work together effectively to advocate for a third alternative that celebrates people and planet. PGAP co-hosts Mark Allen and Michael Bayliss discuss their responses to the election and their recent engagements toward a Degrowth future.

In this episode, Michael shares the speech that he gave on Degrowth at the Torbay Festival, Western Australia in late October – just before the election. A quote from the talk:

This is a conversation that needs to happen with greater urgency as humanity lurches towards an increasingly dark future.

A transcript of Michael’s talk can be read on the PGAP BLOG.

Mark shares his most recent posting on Holistic Activism following the US election. As Mark explains, “this message isn’t a call for optimism or hope…instead, it’s a call to hold space and to serve both human and non-human futures, with an awareness of our profound interconnectedness.”

The post may be read at the Holistic Activism website HERE. You can be part of the Holistic Activism movement today by joining the HA FACEBOOK GROUP.

PGAP is also proud to be the first to play Mark’s new song ‘Ballad of Yakamia’ performed by his occasional and ongoing musical project ‘Counting Backwards.’ You can download or purchase the song from BANDCAMP.

One take away from the US election is that podcasts have now overtaken mainstream media as public informers. However, did you know that the top 10 performing podcasts tend to lean more towards right wing populism? It is time that podcasts that offer genuine solutions – planned degrowth, steady state economics, wellbeing societies, and stabilising populations start to make a bigger splash in the mainstream media.

We have been very happy with the performance of PGAP’ Season Seven opener, “Rethinking Sustainability” which is looking to break PGAP download records. We invite you to help us to build this momentum. Please SUBSCRIBE and share PGAP with your friends, family and networks. You can rate and review us on APPLE PODCAST. CONTACT US with your feedback and recommendations for future episode.

This episode is made possible by the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia. SPA is the only population organisation in the world, that has demonstrated unequivocal support from the broader public, for a sensible and rational population policy. With 17,500 signatures to their position statement, SPA has demonstrated that the issue doesn’t have to be ugly or divisive to win popular support (someone should have told the Republicans). SPA has also released a sobering report on Australia’s water security: “Big thirsty Australia: how population growth threatens our water security and sustainability”.

A couple more links:

This blog piece from CASSE, A Steady Stater’s Response to the Harris-Trump Debate is good for a 'Degrowth' perspective on the Democract/Republic dichotomy.

This video from Resilience.Org, A Dozen Years of Economic Thumb Twiddling, also resonates with us.

From George Monbiot: Trump has pledged to wage war on planet Earth – and it will take a progressive revolution to stop him. "Voters have never been swayed by ‘rational debate’. Only a genuine change in the way we do politics can prevent the march of the right". Indeed.