In her new book The Way Up is Down, author Marlena Graves shares the example of Jesus, who, “Though he was in the form of God… emptied himself” (Philippians 2:6-7).

In this conversation, Marlena and Joe talk about how all too often we do the opposite—trying to fill ourselves with power, money, comfort and more. Often, despite all our striving, we find that we can never be satisfied. When we surrender those desires and instead allow God to fill us, we can find the peace and satisfaction we desire.