In this conversation, Tanja Lau and Stéphane Turquay discuss the Shape Up methodology, a product development framework that emphasizes fixed timelines with variable scopes. Stéphane shares insights on the shaping and building phases, the challenges faced during implementation at SmallPDF, and the importance of team dynamics. They explore how Shape Up allows for greater ownership among teams and the need for a mature product and skilled team members for successful adoption.

Chapters

00:00    Introduction to Shape Up

01:17      Understanding the Shape Up Methodology

01:56     The Shaping and Building Phases

05:08    Real-World Application of Shape Up

06:05    The Pitch Process in Shape Up

10:43     The Betting Table and Team Dynamics

15:52      Introducing Shape Up at SmallPDF

21:14      Benefits and Challenges of Shape Up

22:57     Recommendations and Pitfalls for Implementation

OUR GUEST

Stéphane Turquay is a Principal Product Manager at Smallpdf, one of the world’s most popular platforms for PDFs and document management.

With a decade of experience in SaaS growth and monetization, he helps build products that delight millions of users worldwide.

Based in Zurich, Stéphane has worked across international organizations, corporate spin-ups, and startups, driven by curiosity, clarity, and impact.

USEFUL RESOURCES

• https://basecamp.com/shapeup

• https://www.houseful.blog/posts/2023/shape-up-at-zoopla/

• https://techblog.beefree.io/one-year-of-shape-up-part-2-why-it-works-for-us-bb9413b497ab#32d3

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoCGibVonBE

• https://marmelab.com/blog/2024/09/26/shape-up.html 

COOK WHILE LISTENING

Warm Tuna Sashimi with Rucola, Parmesan & Rice Noodles 

In this episode, Francesca Cortesi and Caroline Clark talk about the complexities of imposter feelings, exploring their prevalence, the impact of perfectionism, and the importance of language in framing these experiences. They discuss strategies for overcoming feelings of inadequacy, emphasizing the significance of connection and belonging in professional environments. Caroline shares insights from her research on imposter feelings among product professionals, revealing that these feelings are common across various levels of experience. The conversation concludes with practical tips for navigating imposter feelings in career growth and the importance of recognizing that these feelings are a shared human experience.

CHAPTERS

00:46 Introduction to Imposter Feelings

03:49 Understanding Imposter Feelings 

06:32 The Role of Perfectionism  

09:52 The Language of Imposter Feelings

12:31  Overcoming Isolation

15:52 Creating a Sense of Belonging

21:51 Survey Insights on Imposter Feelings

24:44  Navigating Imposter Feelings in Career Growth

27:41 Final Thoughts and Takeaways

OUR GUEST

Caroline Clark, Leadership consultant and coach

Caroline Clark is a leadership consultant and coach specialising in performance psychology for leaders in tech and space. As an ex-Product Director with more than 12 years in Product, she understands the unique pressures facing product teams. Her work equips product leaders with evidence-based tools to transform leadership potential into performance - and achieve the impossible.

COOK WHILE LISTENING

Caroline’s Lentil dahl - this hearty and fragrant dish is perfect for the colder nights closing in, you can make it as hot or mild to your taste by adjusting the amount of chilli!

Ingredients:

• 1 tbsp cooking oil

• 1 onion

• 2-3 cloves of garlic

• 1cm piece of fresh ginger, grated

• Spices: 1 tsp dried birdseye chillies, 1 tsp turmeric, 2.5 tsp garam masala

• 150g dried red lentils

• 750ml vegetable stock

• 1x can coconut milk

• 1 tbsp soy sauce or coconut aminos

• whole courgette, grated

• bag of spinach

  
  

To make:

• Dice the onion, crush the garlic and grate the ginger, then combine in pan over medium heat, turning until onion browns (a few minutes)

• Add the spice mix and stir in well

• Add the lentils and dry stir until coated in oil and spices

• Add stock slowly, stirring into lentils

• Add coconut milk and soy sauce or coconut aminos, stirring in

• Leave to simmer for 5 minutes until liquid starts to reduce, then add courgette and stir well

• Leave to simmer for 20 minutes, then add spinach and stir well

• Leave to simmer for 5 mins - then it's ready to serve!

• Serve with rice or naan bread and enjoy!

In this conversation, Francesca Cortesi and Alena Ipanova dig into the complexities of navigating cultural differences in the workplace, especially for expats. They discuss the importance of understanding both personal and national cultures, the significance of effective communication, and the challenges of aligning personal values with company culture. Alena emphasizes the need for self-awareness and the willingness to explore unfamiliar cultural interactions to foster better relationships and collaboration in diverse environments.

CHAPTERS

00:46 Navigating Cultural Differences at Work

09:01 Understanding Personal and National Culture

16:06 Improving Communication Across Cultures 

19:40 Bridging Company Culture Gaps 

26:13 Exploring Unfamiliarity in Cultural Interactions 

OUR GUEST

Alena Ipanova, Cultural Intelligence Expert and Trainer

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ialena/

Alena is a cultural intelligence expert, trainer, and coach who helps global leaders and teams work better across differences. With a background in psychology, communication, and intercultural leadership - and over 15 years of experience across various industries - she’s trained thousands of professionals to build trust, communicate clearly, and create inclusive, high-performing teams.

She specializes in helping organizations identify and bridge the hidden gaps between cultures, expectations, and mindsets - turning potential friction into stronger collaboration and smarter decisions.

Alena is also a mom of three, living a nomadic life - moving to a new country every year with her family and turning each new culture into a learning adventure.

COOK WHILE LISTENING

Alena’s go-to dessert for surprise guests or impatient kids who want it now :

https://scandinaviansimpleeating.com/2019/03/29/crumble-pie-with-summer-berries-smulpaj/

Dive into the latest episode of Product Acaemy Tough Stuff Season 3, where Francesca and Todd Birzer tackle one of the most challenging questions in the professional world: "How do I manage my time better?" .

Discover why traditional time management techniques might not work for product managers and learn about strategic focus and strategic neglect. Todd shares insights from his career, including the importance of setting boundaries and leaving time for relationships. Tune in for practical tips and a fresh perspective on balancing priorities.

CHAPTERS

00:46 The challenges of traditional time management techniques

05:47 Strategic focus and neglect

10:47 Balancing priorities

15:47 Practical tools and techniques to manage your time

20:47 Setting boundaries and building relationships

25:47 Final tips

OUR GUEST

Todd Birzer, Product Management Leader https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddbirzer/

Todd Birzer has over 25 years of experience in product management—leading product teams in the US and Canada and consulting with teams worldwide. Todd is a lecturer at Temple University, an instructor partner at Udemy, and author of the book The Three-Minute Product Manager.

Todd’s latest course: https://www.udemy.com/course/new-manager-make-an-impact/?referralCode=2F6FD10589F611C481F5

COOK WHILE LISTENING

Tod’s favorite corn bread: Warm corn bread, with butter and honey, ahhh…glorious 

1 cup cornmeal

¾ cup flour

3 Tablespoons sugar

2 ½ teaspoons baking powder

½ teaspoon salt

1 cup milk

2 eggs

¼ cup butter, melted

1. Preheat oven to 205 degrees C or 400 degrees F

2. Mixed dry ingredients in a big bowl

3. In a small bowl, whisk together milk, eggs, and butter

4. Pour the milk / egg / butter mixture into the cornmeal mixture, stir gently (until just

moistened)

5. Pour entire mixture into a greased baking pan

6. Bake for 20 minutes

For myself, I usually don’t use milk but instead mix three big spoons of natural yogurt

with enough water to make one cup.

The trick for this recipe: find nice quality cornmeal! Look for cornmeal with both the

“germ” and the “bran” – which are the source of nice flavor and texture. I use Bob’s Red

Mill Medium Grind Cornmeal.

Enjoy!

Francesca Cortesi and Kai Stevens discuss the complexities of conducting discovery in hardware. They explore the unique challenges faced in hardware development, including long timelines, irreversible decisions, and the need for robust usability testing. 

Kai shares insights on balancing discovery with development, innovative approaches to user feedback, and the importance of collaborative decision-making among stakeholders. The discussion emphasizes the need for a strategic approach to discovery that accommodates the specific demands of hardware while remaining agile and responsive to user needs.

CHAPTERS

00:46 Introduction to Hardware Discovery Challenges

02:47 The Context of Hardware Product Management

05:15 Understanding the Risks in Hardware Development

08:58 Balancing Discovery and Development Timelines

12:38 Innovative Approaches to User Feedback

15:18 Usability Testing in Hardware

17:10 Decision-Making in Hardware Development

19:57 Optimizing Discovery Processes

23:41 Collaborative Decision-Making for Product Viability

26:29 Final Thoughts on Balancing Discovery and Execution

OUR GUEST

Kai Stevens, Product Leader & discovery coach https://www.linkedin.com/in/kaistevens/

Kai Stevens is the founder of Discovery Doctors, a training and consultancy company dedicated to helping product teams master continuous discovery. As a former Group Product Manager at tado°, Kai led a group of cross-functional teams to develop and launch the next-generation smart thermostats of tado° in May 2024. His hands-on experience applying continuous discovery in the connected hardware space inspired him to support other product teams in building better products through a discovery-driven approach."

COOK WHILE LISTENING

Kai’s favorite vietnamese spring rolls:  https://www.hungryhuy.com/how-to-make-goi-cuon-vietnamese-spring-rolls/

In this conversation, Corinne Ruckstuhl (Product Manager Data & AI at SRF) shares her insights on transitioning to internal product management, discussing the unique challenges and dynamics involved. Tanja and Corinne discuss the importance of stakeholder management, prioritization, and balancing efficiency with business value. They explore ways of of measuring success through user satisfaction and adoption as well as strategies for building habits among users to ensure successful adoption of internal products.

CHAPTERS

(Time slots start after the introduction jingle)

00:00 Transitioning to Internal Product Management

02:59 Stakeholder Dynamics and Prioritization Challenges

06:01 Balancing Efficiency and Business Value

09:00 Measuring Success in Internal Products

12:02 Ethical Considerations in Product Management

14:59 Building Habits and User Adoption

17:59 Build vs. Buy Decisions in Product Development

OUR GUEST

Corinne is a Product Manager for Data & AI at SRF where she develops user-centric data and AI products, driving innovation in the media industry. With a Master’s degree in Business Innovation & Technology and AI studies at MIT, she leads the full product lifecycle—from discovery to delivery—ensuring impactful solutions. Passionate about shaping Switzerland’s tech landscape, she mentors aspiring product managers, invests in startups, and advocates for diversity.

RESOURCES

Team Topology - Organizing Business and Technology for Fas Flow: Especially the part about platform teams is interesting to get a view on the topic of internal product management (more information: https://teamtopologies.com/) 

RECIPE

We serve every episode of our podcast with a recipe you can cook while listening. 

Corinne shares her recipe for Quesadillas with chickpeas: https://fooby.ch/de/rezepte/21415/

Francesca Cortesi and Tim Herbig dive into one of the trickiest questions in product: how do you know when you’ve done enough discovery?

They talk about the real purpose behind discovery, how to avoid getting stuck in process for process’ sake, and why defining your assumptions early matters more than sticking to a framework. From using strategic clarity to guide your work, to building a strong narrative around your findings (and even turning discovery into a game to keep teams engaged) this episode is packed with practical tips and honest reflections.

CHAPTERS

00:46 Navigating the Discovery Dilemma

03:33 Understanding the Purpose of Discovery

06:51 The Balance of Process and Value

09:45 Defining Success in Discovery

12:43 Time Boxing Discovery Efforts

15:44 Strategic Clarity in Discovery

18:45 Identifying and Validating Assumptions

21:40 Creating a Compelling Narrative for Discovery

24:37 Gamifying the Discovery Process

OUR GUEST

Tim Herbig (Product Management Coach)

https://www.linkedin.com/in/herbigt/

Tim Herbig is a Product Management Coach who helps companies like StepStone, Deutsche Telekom, and Specsavers treat their ways of working like products—focusing on value over theoretical correctness.

With over a decade of hands-on experience across b2c and b2b products—from Premium memberships at XING to Enterprise SaaS platforms—Tim brings unique insight into making product practices truly valuable in different contexts.

Through his consulting and training, Tim helps product teams move beyond rigid frameworks by connecting Strategy, OKRs, and Discovery in ways that work for their specific situation.

COOK WHILE LISTENING

Tim is a true coffee aficionado, here below you can find two coffee brewing recipes

• If you are just starting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oB1oDrDkHM

• Tim’s favorite (right now): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUsHI7jdX1k

In this conversation, Tanja Lau and Nesrine Changuel explore the concept of customer delight, emphasizing the importance of emotional connections in product experiences. They discuss how delight can be created even in seemingly boring products, the significance of understanding and measuring delight, and the business case for investing in delightful features. 

Nesrine spent 12 years of her product management career embedding Delight into tech products. At Spotify, she consistently wove emotional features alongside functional ones, managing to introduce engaging experiences within a fast-paced and highly competitive backlog. At Google Meet, Nesrine served as the Delight PM, where her mission was to bring fun and joy to video calls. Across these two unique environments, she has introduced Delight under various constraints, and is excited to share these experiences with you.

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Nesrine is a passionate and experienced product coach, advisor, and professional speaker.  

For over a decade she held senior product management roles at Google, Spotify, and Microsoft. Nesrine managed highly visible consumer products including Chrome, Meet, Spotify, and Skype. 

Nesrine is also a speaker and lecturer who has addressed multiple product management topics at multiple events. Nesrine holds a Master's degree in electrical engineering and a PhD in media processing and Telecommunication.

Nesrine is based in Paris.

SHOWNOTES

Find Nesrine on Linkedin or via her Substack: https://nesrinechanguel.substack.com/

Learn more about her book:

https://www.nesrine-changuel.com/product-delight-book

Study mentioned in the episode:

https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/growth-marketing-and-sales/our-insights/fueling-growth-through-moments-of-customer-delight

RECIPE

As always, we are serving the episode with a delicious recipe you can cook while listening to the conversation. 

Nesrine is sharing how to cook the Tunisian dish Kafteji in a healthy way: https://carthagemagazine.com/healthy-version-kafteji/

Enjoy and see you for the next episode!

In this conversation, Francesca Cortesi and Rich Mironov discuss product managers' challenges in quantifying their initiatives and communicating effectively with sales and finance teams. They explore the importance of using the right language, preparing for sales conversations, and understanding the value of initiatives through rough estimations. 

Rich emphasizes the need for product managers to balance internal work with revenue-generating projects and effectively engage stakeholders. The discussion also highlights the significance of strategic planning and setting success metrics early in the product development process.

CHAPTERS

00:46 Navigating the Challenge of Quantifying Initiatives

03:46 The Language of Product Management and Sales

06.52 Estimating Value: The Importance of Error Bars

09:51 Preparing for Sales Conversations

12:48 Balancing Internal and External Work

15:43 The Politics of Product Management

18:50 Bilingual Communication in Product Management

21:56 Strategic Planning and Success Metrics

24:37  Concluding Thoughts on Product Management

TO GO DEEPER

Finding the non-negotiable in your priorities: https://www.mironov.com/product-pie/

How to quickly quantify one’s initiative https://www.mironov.com/digits/ 

OUR GUEST

Rich Mironov, 40-year product mgmt veteran

Rich has led product teams for 40 years, including six B2B startups and 15 interim CPO/VP Products roles.  Today, he coaches product leaders, helps design product organizations, and writes/speaks about how product folks can understand our go-to-market partners.  He has been blogging about software product management since 2002, launched the first product camps, and wrote "The Art of Product Management.”

COOK WHILE LISTENING

Rich’s favourite Flourless chocolate cake:

1 cup semisweet or bittersweet chocolate chips

1/2 cup (8 tablespoons) unsalted butter

3/4 cup granulated sugar

1/4 teaspoon salt

1 to 2 teaspoons espresso powder, optional

1 teaspoon vanilla extract, optional

3 large eggs

1/2 cup unsweetened cocoa powder, Dutch-process cocoa preferred

1 cup semisweet or bittersweet chocolate chips

1/2 cup heavy cream

directions

Preheat the oven to 375°F. Lightly grease an 8" round cake pan; cut a piece of parchment or waxed paper to fit, grease it, and lay it in the bottom of the pan.

To make the cake: Put the chocolate and butter in a microwave-safe bowl, and heat until the butter is melted and the chips are soft. Stir until the chips melt, reheating briefly if necessary. You can also do this over a burner set at very low heat. Transfer melted chocolate/butter to a mixing bowl.

Stir in the sugar, salt, espresso powder, and vanilla. Espresso enhances chocolate's flavor much as vanilla does; using 1 teaspoon will simply enhance the flavor, while 2 teaspoons will lend a hint of mocha to the cake.

Add the eggs, beating briefly until smooth. Add the cocoa powder, and mix just to combine.

Spoon the batter into the prepared pan.

Bake the cake for 25 minutes; the top will have formed a thin crust, and it should register at least 200°F on an instant-read thermometer inserted into its center.

Remove it from the oven, and cool it in the pan for 5 minutes.

Loosen the edges of the pan with a table knife or nylon spreader, and turn it out onto a serving plate. The top will now be on the bottom; that's fine. Also, the edges will crumble a bit, which is also fine. Allow the cake to cool completely before glazing.

To make the glaze: Combine the chocolate and cream in a microwave-safe bowl, and heat until the cream is very hot, but not simmering. Remove from the microwave, and stir until the chocolate melts and the mixture is completely smooth.

Spoon the glaze over the cake, spreading it to drip over the sides a bit. Allow the glaze to set for several hours before serving the cake.   

Yield: 8" cake, 8 to 12 servings.

In this conversation, Tanja Lau interviews Justin Groep about his journey from working as a barista in South Africa to securing a product management role in a challenging job market. Justin shares insights on the importance of networking, strategic job hunting, the value of feedback, and the resilience required to navigate the job application process. He emphasizes the significance of community support and mentorship in overcoming obstacles and encourages others to pay it forward by sharing their knowledge and experiences. Don’t forget to check out all the valuable links and resources he offered as part of the shownotes below - including the templates he created to keep track of his job hunt!

OUR GUESTJustin Groep (PM at Neho)

Justin’s product journey began as a barista in South Africa—daydreaming about tech and yearning for something more. Over the next four years, he dabbled in building websites and photography, which landed him a role at a digital agency Soda Studios, gradually paving his way into product. He broke into product as a PM of the mobile app at Urban Connect. In this fast-moving Swiss corporate mobility startup, Justin had his first real opportunity to dive into product management. Today, he is thrilled to have found an amazing product role, shaping the future of real estate at Swiss Prop tech, Neho Real Estate. On the side, he runs Kaffiabo, a passion project that keeps his love for coffee alive and connects him back to his roots.

USEFUL RESOURCES

• Notion about me page: Justin Groep (shareable profile)

• Justin’s template for tracking my job applications: Notion job tracker template - “The Job Hunt 🦾”

Youtube:

• Diego Grendaos -https://www.youtube.com/c/pmdiegogranados 

• Exponent -https://www.youtube.com/@tryexponent

Newsletters:

• Lenny’s Newsletter -https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/ 

• Itamar Gilad -https://itamargilad.com/newsletter/ 

• Pawel Huryn -https://www.productcompass.pm/ 

Podcasts: 

• Lenny’s Podcast -https://open.spotify.com/show/2dR1MUZEHCOnz1LVfNac0j 

• How I built this with Guy Raz (Founder stories) -https://open.spotify.com/show/6E709HRH7XaiZrMfgtNCun 

• Product Thinking with Melissa Perri -https://open.spotify.com/show/3TV1jXZqlSFCzZ3xqvcG96 

  
  

Books:

Product Specific:

• Escaping the Build Trap – highly practical and applicable.  

• Lean Product Playbook by Dan Olsen - intersection of UX and finding product market fit

• Inspired – Didn’t resonate at first but gave Justin a good product vocab (when re-reading it after a year in product, it all made a lot more sense)

• The Lean Startup by Eric Ries– helped Justin understand experimentation and iterative product development.  

• The mom Test by Rob Fitzpatrick –  taught him how to conduct user interviews 

  
  

On a personal level

• Peak by Anders Ericcson and Robert Pool - Understanding deliberate practice and how to grow in a skill

• Grit by Angela Duckworth - While struggling to persevere after a reaching a plateau this was an interesting take of what justin need to do to keep going

• Drive by Daniel Pink - Pretty much research on the science of motivation. To help my reframe my growth and development journey.

• Deep work by Cal Newport - In order for me to develop and cross the “casm” into product. I need to work and go about my daily work differently and change my relationship towards things like Social Media.

  
  

  
  

RECIPE

As always, we serve this episode with a recipe you can cook while listening to the conversation. Justin’s tip: 

Mixed leaf salad with mozzarella, mint, peach & prosciutto: https://www.jamieoliver.com/recipes/vegetables/mixed-leaf-salad-with-mozzarella-mint-peach-prosciutto/

Some slightly roasted pine nuts are a nice little addition to this recipe.