Product Pals

In this episode of Product Pals, Charlotte and Kiet sit down with John Cutler — one of the most distinctive voices in modern product thinking and operating model design.

For many in the product community, John needs no introduction. But for those newer to the space, he is a seasoned product leader, educator, and systems thinker with over two decades of experience across product management, user research, enablement, and frontline roles.

He is currently Head of Product at Dotwork, where he explores how operating systems and decision frameworks can help teams build better products with greater clarity and intent.

John is widely respected for his thoughtful writing, practical mental models, and ability to surface the messy realities of product work — challenging cargo-cult agile and simplistic takes on what “good” looks like.

In this rich and energising conversation, we explore:

• John’s career journey into product

• How he writes so consistently (without over-optimising for algorithms)

• What operating models actually do inside organisations

• How product thinking translates beyond tech and “pure” product companies

• AI’s real impact and use cases

• The future of product management

Along the way, John shares many insightful stories and powerful mental models in product. 

This episode is thoughtful, sharp, inspiring — and weirdly comforting.

If you’re navigating product, leadership, or operating change in this evolving world, this conversation will leave you thinking differently.

If this conversation sparked new thinking for you, here are a few deeper dives we recommend:

1. John Cutler – What does it means to be Product Led?  (LinkedIn)

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/johnpcutler_i-have-been-thinking-a-lot-about-what-it-activity-7405101035184128002--e5K/

2. TBM #406 – Seeing Everything, Understanding Nothing (The Beautiful Mess)

John’s Substack piece exploring AI’s use cases across different contexts

https://cutlefish.substack.com/p/tbm-406-seeing-everything-understanding

3. Product Operating System – Jobs To Be Done 

Our interpretation of John’s Operating System Jobs framework discussed in this episode - breaking down what a product operating system must actually do.

https://medium.com/productpals

4. Leadership Personality Persona Spectrum (Product Pals)

Our interpretation of John’s 2 by 2 framework to illustration how leadership personality shapes operating design.

https://medium.com/productpals

🎧 Listen now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube — search Product Pals Podcast.

🥨 Knowledge Snacks

In this heartfelt episode of Product Pals, Charlotte and Kiet sit down with design lead James Riddell and product leader Ines Goluza, the inspiring team behind Rare Journey — an AI-powered health companion app built to support families navigating rare diseases.

After the birth of his son Felix and his diagnosis with the ultra-rare Myhre Syndrome, James, along with his partner Ivana and sister-in-law Ines, channelled their personal experience into building Rare Journey and co-founding the Myhre Syndrome Foundation Australia. What began as a family crisis quickly became a bold mission to support others through empathy-driven tech.

💡 What you’ll hear:

• Felix’s diagnosis and the origin of Rare Journey

• Why community knowledge is a superpower in healthcare

• Building under pressure: hospital rooms to MVP in 6 months

• Applying product and design thinking in the real world

• Reflections on scaling, funding, and staying mission-led

To find out more about their stories visit:

• Myhre Syndrome Foundation Website: ⁠https://myhresyndromeaus.org/⁠ 

• Rare Journey: ⁠https://www.therarejourney.com/⁠

Other Resources:

• Ronald McDonald House Foundation https://rmhc.org.au/

This is the final episode of 2025 — and it’s really just us saying thank you 💛

Just Charlotte and Kiet back where it all started — the two of us on a video call, coffee in hand ☕️, reflecting on a year that flew by faster than we expected.

Somewhere between recording episodes, replying to messages, running events, and figuring life out, Product Pals quietly became a community. And this episode is our little pause to acknowledge that.

In this conversation, we chat about:

• The stories, people, and moments from 2025 that stayed with us
  
• Conversations that went beyond “product” and into being human
  

• A few things we’re learning to let go of as the year closes
  

• And what we’re gently hoping for in 2026 — for the podcast, and for ourselves
  

If Product Pals has been something you’ve listened to on a walk, during a commute, while cooking dinner, or in a quiet moment — this episode is for you.

Thank you for being here. Thank you for listening, sharing, and supporting in big and small ways.

💛 Product Pals Podcast works best when you’re part of it.

We hope you’re getting some real rest, spending time with people you love, and stepping into 2026 feeling a little lighter and hopeful — just as we are!

We’ll be back in the new year with more stories, more connection, and the same heart.

Enjoy the last few days of 2025, see you in 2026 💛

👋 Quick heads-up!

You might notice a small Descript watermark on this video.

We’re experimenting with a few new podcast tools at the moment and are currently on the free trial while we evaluate whether this platform is right for us (and whether we’ll move from our existing setup).

It shouldn’t affect the listening experience — but if it’s distracting or gets in the way, please let us know. Your feedback really helps us improve 💛

Thanks so much, and we hope you enjoy the episode!

In this PM Spotlight episode of Product Pals, Charlotte and Kiet sit down with Dipa Rao, Senior Product Manager at Culture Amp, for a refreshingly honest conversation about what product management really looks like behind the job title.

With a career spanning Agile coaching, software delivery, consulting, and product leadership,

Dipa shares a grounded view of the PM craft - from the difficult shift between delivery and strategy, to how great PMs build trust, create space for deep thinking, and stay genuinely close to customer needs.

She also brings a thoughtful perspective on how context shapes product work, including the differences between B2B and B2C environments, team dynamics, and the growing expectations placed on PMs as the role continues to expand.

This is a candid and reflective episode for PMs at any stage — especially those navigating senior roles, complexity, and the future of the product craft.

🎧 Listen to the full episode of Product Pals — available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube.

🍪 Knowledge Snacks (Mentioned in the Episode)

• 🎙 Nikhil Suresh — AI Skeptic & Writer

🔗 Substack: https://nihils.substack.com

• 📚 John Cutler — Product Evanglist and thought leader

🔗 CutleFish Newsletter: https://cutlefish.substack.com

• 🧠 Richard Feynman — Physicist & Educator

🔗 Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman

• 🎬Geeta (Documentary) — Co-produced by Dipa Rao

An award-winning documentary exploring gender and social justice.

🔗 https://www.geetafilm.com/

• 🤖 AI Tool Glean — Internal search and knowledge tool connected to Slack, Confluence, and GitHub, used to quickly answer product and organisational questions.

🔗 https://www.glean.com/

If you’ve ever transitioned (or wanted to transition) into a Product role, this episode will feel like someone finally saying, “Yes, I get you”This week on PM Spotlight, we sat down with Diane Aung — a Senior B2B SaaS Product Manager whose journey began in customer support and grew into a full end-to-end product career. Diane brings warmth, humour and a refreshingly honest take on what PM life actually looks like behind the job title.In this episode, we explore:✨ Why moving from customer support into Product is an underrated superpower✨ What servant leadership really looks like in fast-moving SaaS teams✨ How Diane navigates alignment, disagreements, and “too many opinions in the room”✨ The mindset shifts and unlearning that helped her level up as a PM✨ How she thinks about the future of product, learning, and designing a career that grows with youWhether you’re new to Product or deep in the craft, Diane’s reflections hit home in all the right ways.🎧 Listen now and follow the Product Pals Podcast for more real stories, messy moments, and bright ideas from PMs who are figuring it out as they go.

🍪 Knowledge Bites (from the episode)

• Jobs to Be Done: Theory to Practice — Anthony Ulwick

• What You Do Is Who You Are — Ben Horowitz

• Amazon Leadership Principles — Jeff Bezos

Quick Note ❤️You may notice a couple of small video and audio bumps in this episode - we had some internet drops and background noise during recording (the joys of remote podcasting 😅).Huge thanks for your patience, and an even bigger thanks to Diane for rolling with it. The conversation was too good not to share.

In this episode of Product Pals Podcast, Charlotte and Kiet sit down with Paru Madhavan, Product Coach at the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation), wine nerd, and systems thinker.

Paru has led teams across travel, fintech, and media, and now focuses on creating environments where people thrive and customers’ problems actually get solved. Together, we unpack the craft and calling of product coaching — what it means, how it differs from managing, and why curiosity might be the most underrated skill in modern product teams.

🔑 What you’ll hear:

💭 A thoughtful, human conversation that reminds us good coaching isn’t about answers — it’s about asking better questions.

🍪 Knowledge Snacks (from the episode)

• John Cutler – reflections on organisational learning and systems thinking (The Beautiful Mess)
  

• Marty Cagan – writing on leadership and the role of product managers as coaches (svpg.com)

• Lisa Adkins –Book<<Coaching Agile Teams>> and the “four stances” framework
  

• Karen Hao – The Empire of AI (book) and Youtube interview
  

• Akash Gupta – newsletter The Neuron (daily AI + PM updates)
  

🎧 Listen now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube — search Product Pals Podcast.

From public transport design to YouTube stardom, engineer-turned-creator Ting Ting Hu has built a one-person company of creativity, strategy, and heart.

In this episode, she joins Charlotte and Kiet to unpack what it means to treat your craft like a product — balancing art, analytics and authenticity.

🔑 What you’ll hear:

• How Ting Ting plays three roles at once: CEO, PM and talent of her own brand

• Her viral learning loop — what creators can teach PMs about feedback and product-market fit

• Why she left “safe” public service to follow joy and meaning

• The lesson behind huo ren gan (活人感) — the feeling of being alive — and why every product needs it

• How AI quietly powers her reflection, resilience and creativity

💭 “You only create half of a product — the other half belongs to your audience.”

In this episode of the Product Pals Podcast, Charlotte and Kiet sit down with Cheryl Saw — Fractional Product Growth & GTM Strategist at Revvy, with over a decade of experience across SaaS (Adobe, Audible), FMCG (Kimberly-Clark), Health/Edu-Tech, and digital agencies.

Cheryl’s journey into growth wasn’t planned - it found her. Over the years, she’s built a career solving hard problems in consumer SaaS, from pricing strategy to retention to building product growth teams across Asia Pacific. In this conversation, she shares candid reflections on her path, leadership, and what it means to create sustainable growth.

🔑 What you’ll hear:

• Why pricing isn’t the silver bullet for growth — and how to really test value

• The psychology behind retention and why “cheaper” doesn’t always mean “stickier”

• Lessons from growing products like Adobe Acrobat and Audible across APAC

• Building and leading distributed growth teams from scratch

• Why adaptability and curiosity fuel a lasting career in product and growth
  

💡 Cheryl also opens up about her personal journey — from starting in event management to mentoring women in tech and building CandidConvos, a community for meaningful conversations in tech.

In this episode of the Product Pals Podcast, Charlotte and Kiet sit down with Ryan Huynh — Product Manager and co-organiser of ProductTank Sydney.

Ryan’s career has spanned AI research, Big Four consulting, and product management. He shares how consulting gave him a toolkit of frameworks, delivery discipline, and stakeholder skills — and how those translate into product craft today.

🔑 What you’ll hear:

• Ryan’s pivot from data & AI into PM, and the big lessons learned

• Launching AQ Intelligence from 0→1 and finding product-market fit

• Why he believes the heart of PM is making good decisions

• Consulting skills that give PMs an edge in strategy and execution

• How AI is shaping his workflow, learning, and view of PM’s future

• His advice to his younger self: learn economics to understand decision-making

💡 Plus: Rapid-fire fun, contrarian takes, and a thought-provoking future-guest question:👉 “If product managers don’t exist anymore, what’s the biggest disaster you see?”

🎧 Link in first comment  Listen now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your pods.

🍪 Knowledge Snacks (from the episode)

🍊Freakonomics Stephen J. Dubner and Steven Levitt (book) https://amzn.to/466fSIt (Charlotte’s recommendation)

Welcome to the very first PM Spotlight — a special series from Product Pals celebrating the real stories behind product management.

In this debut episode, we sit down with Larry Lai, whose career spans continents and industries: from game design and livestreaming in China, to product roles at tech giants like Tencent and Huya, and now leading SMB livestream products at TikTok Sydney.

Larry shares candid reflections on:

🎮 The many “flavours” of product management, and how roles shift across industries and cultures

🧩 The overlap between Product Management and Design — and why it matters more than we think

👥 The leap from individual contributor to product leader — and the challenges of leading with purpose

🤖 How AI is reshaping product work, and why it could unlock the rise of one-person companies

🔮 His optimistic vision for the future of product management

This is an honest, inspiring conversation on leadership, design, and staying curious in an AI-driven world.

👉 Tune in and celebrate Larry’s journey behind the PM title.

📚 The Design of Everyday Things — Don Norman (Larry’s recommendation)

🎧 Gamecraft Podcast — Listen here (Kiet’s recommendation)

🍪 Knowledge Snacks (from the episode)