Psych Tech @ Work

“The challenge isn’t just identifying skills, but ensuring the data is validated, diverse, and reflective of real-world performance."

• Greg Gasperin

Summary: My guest for this episode is Greg Gasperin, CEO and Co-Founder of Merify, a skills data verification platform.  Greg and I discuss the future of skills-based hiring, which we both agree requires a shift from traditional resumes and degree-based qualifications to more dynamic and validated assessments of a candidate’s Skills.  We discuss the fate of the skills based hiring movement as inexorably bound to the ability to have meaningful, quality evaluation of skills that is based on direct input from humans.   Greg discusses the genesis behind Merify based on the need for continuous feedback, data integrity, and community-based validation as essential components of modern talent evaluation. Of course we also also cover the role of AI in automating skill taxonomy updates, ensuring that assessments remain relevant and aligned with industry trends.  Topics Covered:

• Skills-Based Hiring:
  • Moving beyond traditional resumes and degree requirements to more accurate, validated skill assessments.
  • The importance of diverse, peer-reviewed feedback in creating a trustworthy skills database.
• Community-Based Skill Validation:
  • The role of continuous feedback and real-world performance data in building a dynamic skill assessment system.
  • How internal talent management can foster trust in skills data before expanding to external hiring.
• AI in Skill Taxonomies:
  • Leveraging AI to maintain up-to-date skill taxonomies and adapt to changing industry demands.
  • Balancing efficiency with transparency and explainability in AI-driven decision-making.

Takeaways:

• Trust in Data: A reliable skills-based hiring system requires validated, peer-reviewed data that accurately reflects a candidate's real-world abilities.
• Continuous Feedback: Regular, diverse feedback is essential for maintaining the accuracy and relevance of skill assessments.
• AI for Agility: AI can automate skill taxonomy updates, helping companies stay current with evolving industry needs.
• Start with Internal Trust: Focusing on internal talent management builds confidence in the system, paving the way for its broader application in external hiring.
• Transparency and Validation: A transparent, explainable system for skill validation is crucial to mitigating biases and fostering trust in AI-driven hiring decisions.

Articles Discussed in the "Take it or Leave it" Segment:

1. "Leveraging Professional Education as a Bridge Between School and Career"
   • Summary: This article from Fast Company explores the gap between academic learning and practical application in the workplace, emphasizing the need for higher education to incorporate more professional training to better prepare students for their careers.
   • Discussion: Greg and Charles discuss the importance of exposure to various career paths early in education and the benefits of integrating professional skills training into higher education.
   • Link: Fast Company Article

1. "To Make the Most of Credentials, We Need a Better Marketplace"
   • Summary: This article from Jobs for the Future highlights the need for a unified marketplace for credentials, where skills and credentials can be transparently evaluated and trusted by employers.
   • Discussion: Greg and Charles talk about the importance of having a trusted, centralized system for credentialing and the role of employer buy-in for the success of a skills-based hiring approach.
   • Link: Jobs for the Future Article

"It's about selling objectivity, not just science. We need to make sense of the vast data around us to help businesses make better decisions."

-Eric Sydell

Summary:

In this episode of "Psych Tech @ Work," my long time friend Eric Sydell, IO psychologist, genius, and co-founder of Vero AI, joins me to discuss the transformative potential of AI in the workplace and the importance of responsible innovation. This episode offers a deep dive into the practical applications of AI in HR tech, the necessity of ethical guidelines, and how businesses can implement AI responsibly to drive innovation while mitigating risks.

In our conversation we get into the brass tacks of responsible AI.

But first we share some stories about our respective career journeys and life as IO psychologists here in 2024.  And how we both find peace and harmony in this crazy world by working with our hands (he builds guitars, I work on old cars).Besides talking about hobbies, my agenda for having Eric on the show was to learn more about what Eric’s company, Vero AI, is doing to help drive safe innovation with AI.

Eric delves into the technical aspects of how Vero AI leverages advanced analytics and AI tools to enhance decision-making processes.  He highlights the company's unique approach to converting unstructured data into quantitative insights, enabling businesses to monitor and optimize their operations effectively.Eric emphasizes the importance of continuous output monitoring to ensure AI tools are fair, unbiased, and effective. He explains how Vero AI’s platform uses a combination of AI and rigorous scientific methods to provide comprehensive analyses of algorithmic impact, compliance, and fairness. Our discussion also covers the evolving landscape of AI regulations, the importance of aligning with these regulations, and how Vero AI assists companies in navigating this complex terrain. Eric's insights provide a detailed look at the practical applications of AI in HR tech, underscoring the balance between innovation and ethical responsibility.

Takeaways:

• Sell Objectivity: Focus on using AI to make sense of vast data, helping businesses make better decisions based on rigorous scientific methods.
• Monitor AI Outputs: Continuous output monitoring is crucial to ensure AI tools are fair, unbiased, and effective.
• Responsible Innovation: Approach AI adoption with a rigorous, ethical mindset. Balance innovation with the responsibility to monitor and understand AI systems.
• Regulation Awareness: Stay informed about evolving AI regulations and work towards compliance by maintaining transparent and accountable practices.
• Leverage AI Thoughtfully: Use AI to enhance decision-making processes while being mindful of potential biases and ethical considerations.

No show would be complete without the Take it or Leave it” Show.In this episode Eric and I discuss two interesting articles about hiring bias and regulation
Articles Discussed in the "Take it or Leave it" Segment:

1. "Colorado's New Law on Regulating Brain Implants and Neurological Tech"
   • Summary: This article discusses Colorado’s new law aimed at regulating brain implants and other neurological technologies, focusing on data privacy and ethical concerns.
   • Discussion: Eric and Charles debate the necessity and timing of such regulations, considering the current state of the technology and the importance of data privacy.

1. "Employers Ask, What is AI? as Regulators Probe Hiring Biases?"
   • Summary: This article explores the confusion among employers regarding the definition of AI and the importance of evaluating adverse impact in hiring decisions, regardless of the technology used.

Discussion: Eric emphasizes the need for clear definitions and the importance of focusing on outcomes rather than the specific tools used, while Charles discusses the practical implications for employers.

"It’s important to be a sponge when you're early in your career. Pick up pieces of what everybody else is doing that looks like it's working, and if it doesn't work, then you learn and grow from it." Brandon Sulzberg "Having an open mind early in your career can lead you to discover new interests and opportunities you might have otherwise overlooked." Joe Prinzevalli Summary: In this episode I welcome Brando & Joe, recent graduates from Hofstra University’s IO Psychology program and hosts of one of the most popular IO psychology podcasts- The Brando & Joe Podcast.These guys are the real deal and it is always a great experience to have fellow podcasters on the show.  There is a lot we can learn from the collective wisdom they have gained through 80 some odd episodes of their own podcast. Brando & Joe offer me (and my listeners) a fresh perspective on early careers for IOs.  We discuss how they found their current jobs and how they are applying what they learned to the world of work.  One theme that we spend a good deal of time discussing is the critical role that internships and networking play in shaping career paths, providing us experienced professionals about the importance of giving others a chance.Brandon and Joe’s adaptability, open-mindedness, and continuous learning mindset serve as a powerful reminder of the importance of staying current and flexible in a rapidly changing field. Listen in and you will probably take a relaxing stroll down memory lane and reminisce about how you got where you are today and who helped you get there.   Take it or Leave it:The “Take it or Leave it” Show for this episode included a spirited discussion of two super interesting articles:"Will Robots Take My Job?" (website that looks at the future of various jobs)

• Summary: This website analyzes the risk of various jobs being automated and the future job prospects for IO psychologists. It highlights the low risk of automation in IO Psychology due to the need for complex problem-solving, creativity, and interpersonal skills.
• Discussion: We discuss the implications of automation in IO Psychology, emphasizing the unique human elements that protect their field from being fully automated.
• Link: Will Robots Take My Job

"The Future of IO Psychology: Adapting to AI and Technological Changes" (Linked in Article by Georgi Yankov, Pd.D.)

• Summary: Georgi argues that IO psychologists need to embrace AI and technological advancements to remain relevant or it will face extinction. He emphasizes the importance of multidisciplinary approaches and continuous learning.
• Discussion: The conversation explores the necessity of integrating AI into IO practices and the potential for rebranding the field to stay current with technological trends. Or else!
• Link: Future of IO Psychology

"Organizational justice is about ensuring that every individual feels they are treated fairly and with respect in all aspects of their work. It’s not just about the outcomes they receive, but how those outcomes are decided and communicated. Fair processes and respectful treatment are fundamental to maintaining trust and equity within any organization."   -Stephen Gilliland  

Summary: In this episode of "Psych Tech @ Work," Steven Gilliland, a distinguished professor and expert in organizational justice, joins me to explore the profound impact of fairness on hiring and the psychology of the workplace.  Stephen was my professor when I was in grad school at LSU, so I know him well and was lucky to have exposure to organizational justice theory during my most formative years. 

After taking a stroll down memory lane, we have an amazing conversation about the fundamental principles of organizational justice theory.  We discuss how perceptions of fairness in outcomes, processes, and interpersonal treatment shape employees’ attitudes and behaviors.  We talk about how organizations can ensure fair treatment during hiring and how these practices influence applicants’ decisions and organizational reputation.  We also dig into the broader implications of fairness in the workplace, emphasizing how companies can navigate challenging decisions, like layoffs, while maintaining their commitment to justice. Finally, we discuss the evolving role of technology in shaping justice perceptions in the workplace. Stephen provides insights into how AI and digital tools are transforming the landscape of organizational justice, offering both opportunities and challenges.   

Take Aways:  

• Treat Applicants as Customers: Consider the hiring process from the applicant's perspective. Fair treatment during this phase can significantly impact their decision to join your organization and their perception of your brand.

 

• Understand the Role of Fairness in Employee Engagement: Perceptions of fairness in hiring and workplace practices contribute to overall employee engagement and satisfaction. Ensure that decisions and processes are consistently fair to foster a positive work environment.

 

• Adapt Organizational Justice to Technological Changes: As workplaces evolve with technological advancements, continuously revisit and adapt your organizational justice practices to address new challenges and maintain fairness.

 

• Respond to Difficult Situations with Empathy: During tough times, such as layoffs, how you handle the situation reveals your organization's commitment to fairness. Strive to treat affected individuals with empathy and respect, maintaining open and honest communication.

 

• Align Actions with Psychological Contracts: Be aware of the unspoken agreements between employees and employers. Violating these expectations can lead to perceptions of unfairness and affect employee loyalty and engagement.

 

• Future-Proof Your Fairness Practices: Stay ahead of emerging trends by integrating fairness into your organizational strategy. Anticipate the impact of new technologies and societal changes on your justice practices to create a resilient and equitable workplace.

  Take it or Leave it Show On this week’s show we vote on these articles.  Tune in to hear our takes! "ChatGPT and the Rise of AI-Driven Conspiracy Theories"  (Source: USA Today)

• Summary: This article explores how advanced AI technologies, like ChatGPT, are fueling the spread of conspiracy theories. It discusses the potential for AI to amplify misinformation and the challenges in managing these effects. The article suggests that as AI becomes more integrated into everyday life, there is an urgent need for radical transparency and robust measures to combat the spread of false information.

  “AI Hiring Tools May Be Filtering Out the Best Job Applicants" (Source: CNBC)

• Summary: This article addresses concerns that AI-driven hiring tools may unintentionally filter out qualified candidates due to biases in the algorithms or lack of transparency in decision-making processes. It highlights the growing reliance on AI for managing large volumes of applications and the need for regulations to ensure fairness and accuracy in these systems.

"Skills-based hiring isn't just removing a degree requirement from a job description. It takes a long time and serious commitment to see it through."
-Matt Alder
Summary:  
My guest for this episode is Matt Alder, podcaster, author, consultant and futurist
This is an exciting episode because it includes the first ever episode of The Take it or Leave it Show! This short segment takes place in the middle of our interview.  This is a fun segment that provides listeners with expert takes on current hot topics.  In the segment, Matt and I review two articles from the current news, share our takes on them, and give a collective thumbs up or thumbs down on it.  
This week’s articles cover the topics of skills based hiring and the use of AI driven personality assessments in hiring.  Don’t miss it!
In addition to Take it or Leave it, in this episode we learn about Matt’'s background in talent acquisition, his Recruiting Future podcast and his books 'Exceptional Talent' and 'Digital Talent'.  Through these efforts and Matt’s work as a top notch consultant and futurist, we discuss the hot topics that are shaping the future of hiring.
Topics covered include:

• The definition of “digital transformation” and its impact on talent acquisition
• The role of AI in recruitment and how companies should approach the adoption of new technologies
• Challenges in skills-based hiring
• The importance of experimentation and innovation in recruitment, and 
• Predictions for the future of talent acquisition in 2034. 

Take Aways:

• Embrace Digital Transformation: Companies must adjust to an increasingly digital world, understanding that digital transformation impacts all aspects of business, including talent acquisition. Digital transformation involves more than just adopting new technologies; it requires a shift in mindset to leverage these tools effectively.
• Foster a Future-Focused Mindset: Being open to change and continuously experimenting with new technologies is essential for staying ahead in the HR landscape. Organizations need to think beyond the current processes and explore how technology can fundamentally change their operations.

• Prioritize Skills-Based Hiring: While challenging, skills-based hiring can lead to a more equitable and effective recruitment process, helping organizations find and retain the right talent. This approach emphasizes the importance of assessing candidates based on their actual skills rather than traditional credentials.

• Enhance Candidate Experience: Providing a consumer-grade experience in recruitment processes is crucial for attracting and retaining top talent, particularly among digitally savvy candidates. The goal is to make the recruitment process as engaging and seamless as possible.

• Navigate AI and Automation: Understanding the potential and limitations of AI in recruitment is vital. Organizations should focus on using AI to complement human decision-making and improve efficiency without losing sight of ethical considerations.

Future Hiring Trends: Matt predicts that by 2034, hiring will be highly data-driven, with advanced AI and automation playing a central role. This will lead to more personalized and efficient recruitment processes, but it will also require careful management to ensure fairness and inclusivity

"From the EEOC's perspective, whether an employment action, employment decision is made by a human or an algorithm, liability is going to be the same for those companies." "AI tools really have the ability to prevent discrimination, but at the same time, they have the ability to discriminate more than any one individual human being." -EEOC Commissioner Kieth Sonderling.
Before we begin- Commissioner Sonderling requested that I share a link to this important report (Algorithms, Artificial Intelligence, and Disability Discrimination in Hiring).  While the report focuses on the Americans With Disabilities Act, the ideas put forth apply directly to employment decision making and is an important missive summarizing the government’s position on the relationship between AI and foundational regulation related to concepts such as the ⅘ rule and disparate impact.  

Summary:
How lucky are we?  My guest for this episode is none other than the grand poobah of employment regulations in the US, EEOC commissioner Keith Sonderling.  The Commissioner has many great attributes that underlie his approach to the creation and enforcement of legislation critical to ensuring everyone gets a fair shake when it comes to employment opportunities.  But I think one of his greatest attributes is his mission to make himself accessible to all channels of media and communication, including humble podcasters such as myself.  
In some sense, my big takeaway from our discussion is the idea that the more things change, the more they stay the same. By this I mean that the central tenets of fair and equitable hiring practices are immutable.  While the tools that support employment decision making have, and will continue to become infinitely more complex, ensuring that signals used for hiring decisions are job related, and thus free of systematic differences based on irrelevant factors, is all that matters.
The Commissioner and I have a really awesome and enlightening conversation about the evolving landscape of government regulation on AI in hiring. We begin with a discussion about his career trajectory, his insights about the integration of AI within HR practices, and the critical balance needed between innovation and ethical considerations. 
We have fun delving into the specifics of current regulatory frameworks, including the seminal Uniform Guidelines on Employee Selection Procedures and the recent developments in laws such as New York City's Local Law 144.  Commissioner Sonderling shares his perspective that the future of regulation will likely be driven by state initiatives rather than new federal legislation.
Takeaways:

• State-Led Initiatives: Commissioner Sonderling highlights that while the federal government may not introduce new legislation soon, states like New York and California are likely to lead the way in regulating AI in hiring. Employers should stay informed about state laws and consider adopting best practices from these regulations proactively.
• Navigating a Patchwork Regulatory Environment: With states potentially leading regulatory efforts, HR professionals must prepare to navigate a patchwork of regulations that may vary significantly from one state to another. This emphasizes the need for adaptable compliance strategies.
• Existing Federal Standards: Even in the absence of new federal legislation, existing laws and standards, such as the EEOC's Uniform Guidelines on Employee Selection Procedures, still apply to AI-driven employment decisions. Organizations must ensure compliance with these standards to avoid legal pitfalls.
• Proactive Compliance through Audits: Commissioner Sonderling advises businesses to conduct regular audits of their AI systems to ensure compliance and prevent discrimination. These audits should be thorough and based on relevant data to identify and mitigate any biases in the system.
• Vendor Responsibility and Data Integrity: The discussion highlights the importance of holding vendors accountable for the AI tools they provide. Employers must ensure that their vendors comply with ethical and legal standards and provide necessary data for compliance checks.  We can expect vendors to be required to participate in 3rd party audits of their tools at some point in the near future.

"Everything really starts with the customer. It's not just about having a technology, but understanding the problem you're solving." -George LaRoque Summary: In this episode, George LaRocque, a leading HR technology analyst, investor and the founder of Work Tech- the #1 source of truth around investment and growth in the HR Tech market, joins me to discuss the evolving landscape of HR technology with a twist on its psychological impact on employees and job candidates.  We discuss important topics that will define the future of HR tech and ultimately the future of work from the perspective of technology, commerce, and psychology. These topics include:

• Impact of investments on HR tech innovation

• Impact of generative ai and automation on work dynamics

• The influence of technology on the employee experience

• Social and psychological implications of remote work technologies

• Adaptation and learning in a tech-driven workplace

• Ethical considerations and employee trust

Practical Takeaways:

• Understanding Market Needs: George underscores the importance of aligning technology with actual market needs, emphasizing that successful tech solutions stem from a deep understanding of customer pain points, not just technology's capabilities. He stresses the psychological benefit of technologies that are developed with user-centric designs, which enhance user satisfaction and reduce resistance to new systems.

• Impact of Investment Trends on Psychological Well-being: By monitoring where capital is flowing within the HR tech sector, businesses can anticipate and adapt to emerging trends. George's analysis suggests that investments not only indicate which technologies will shape the future of HR but also how these technologies can affect employee well-being. Investments in user-friendly and ethically designed technologies can improve the overall workplace environment by reducing stress and increasing job satisfaction.

• Adoption of Generative AI: As AI continues to integrate into HR processes, George advises companies to consider how these tools can enhance operations without replacing the human element. Proper implementation of AI can help reduce employee workload and prevent burnout, but it's crucial to ensure these implementations are ethical and enhance employee experiences rather than making them feel replaceable or surveilled.

• Strategic Use of HR Technology for Employee Engagement: The conversation highlights the strategic advantage of using HR technology not just for automation, but for enhancing employee engagement and operational efficiency. Technologies that facilitate meaningful interactions and provide support in workflow can significantly improve psychological comfort and productivity among employees.

• Future of HR Tech and Psychological Impacts: Looking ahead, George predicts a shift towards fewer interfaces and more integrated, seamless experiences within HR technology. This evolution is expected to support a less cluttered and more efficient work environment, reducing cognitive load and fostering a more engaging and less stressful work experience. This future of "invisible" technology aids in maintaining a focus on human-centric operations, crucial for mental well-being.