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In the first two installments of a brand new, six-part interview series with Nobel Laureate Sir Roger Penrose, we explore his approach to the deep nature of reality. Trace the intellectual and scientific history of each of his major contributions to the fields of science and philosophy, the challenges he faced, the criticisms he received, and his overarching reflections today. Additionally, discover how Penrose thinks about physics and hear his contrarian view of the foundations of quantum mechanics. 

Eliezer Yudkowsky is as afraid as you could possibly be. He makes his case.

Yudkowsky is a pioneer of A.I. safety research, who started warning about the existential risks of the technology decades ago, – influencing a lot of leading figures in the field. But over the last couple of years, talk of an A.I. apocalypse has become a little passé. Many of the people Yudkowsky influenced have gone on to work for A.I. companies, and those companies are racing ahead to build the superintelligent systems Yudkowsky thought humans should never create. But Yudkowsky is still out there sounding the alarm. He has a new book out, co-written with Nate Soares, “If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies,” trying to warn the world before it’s too late.

So what does Yudkowsky see that most of us don’t? What makes him so certain? And why does he think he hasn’t been able to persuade more people?

Mentioned:

Oversight of A.I.: Rules for Artificial Intelligence

If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies by Eliezer Yudkowsky and Nate Soares

“A Teen Was Suicidal. ChatGPT Was the Friend He Confided In.” by Kashmir Hill

Book Recommendations:

A Step Farther Out by Jerry Pournelle

Judgment under Uncertainty by Daniel Kahneman, Paul Slovic, and Amos Tversky

Probability Theory by E. T. Jaynes

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected].

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Helen Toner and Jeffrey Ladish.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Tyler Cowen is a leading economist, author, and professor, currently holding the Holbert L. Harris Chair of Economics at George Mason University, where he also serves as chairman and faculty director of the Mercatus Center. Widely recognized for his influential economic ideas,
Cowen co-authors the long-running blog Marginal Revolution with Alex Tabarrok, and together they have also created Marginal Revolution University, which offers accessible, world-class economics education online. Cowen has also authored several books, including "The Great
Stagnation," which analyzes the slowdown in economic growth, and "Average Is Over," exploring the future of work and inequality.

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In episode two of What Were We Like?’s special series on the history of the Presidency, Diarmaid and Catriona take a deep dive into the two most critical powers that the President has, and recall the resignation of Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh and Brian Lenihan’s infamous “mature recollection” moment. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Churchill described Communist Russia as a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. For Pulitzer Prize winning Princeton historian, Paul Starr, America might be the new Soviet Union. It’s a such contradiction, in fact, that he entitles his new book American Contradiction, in an attempt to describe the dominant narrative of “revolution and revenge” from the 1950s to today’s America. But unlike Churchill, who unwrapped the Russian enigma through national interest, Starr finds only more contradictory contradictions about America. The civil rights revolution triggered the Goldwater/Reagan/MAGA revenge. Obama’s hope intensified the reactionary backlash. Economic progress created deeper cultural despair. Each new development triggers an old question, each fresh solution an even staler problem. After 250 years tracing America’s conflicts from slavery through Trump, the distinguished historian admits he has no idea how it ends (or even begins). Perhaps that’s the biggest contradiction of all: a brilliant, yet paralysing diagnosis that offers no cure, an explanation of everything, everywhere all at once that leads us back to the original contradiction. Futile snakes and ladders. A never ending game of one step forward and one step back.

1. The Diagnosis Without a Cure Starr traces America’s current divisions back to the founding contradiction between freedom and slavery, through civil rights, to today’s Trump era. But after 500 pages and decades of study, he admits he has no solutions - not even a “solutions chapter.” His analysis is comprehensive yet paralyzingly circular.

2. Nixon: The Forgotten Liberal? The most surprising historical insight: Richard Nixon implemented affirmative action, desegregated Southern schools, and pushed for guaranteed income and universal healthcare. Starr argues Nixon was temperamentally like Trump but substantively “the last liberal president” - a paradox that complicates standard political narratives.

3. “Wokeism is to Trumpism as a Flea is to an Elephant” When pressed on whether progressive cultural politics contributed to the backlash, Starr dismisses “cancel culture” concerns as trivial compared to Trump using state power against media outlets. He signed the Harper’s Letter but won’t seriously examine the left’s role in alienating working-class voters.

4. The “Sleepwalking” Theory Starr’s one semi-original contribution: 1990s Democrats didn’t understand they were creating conditions for their own defeat. The 1965 immigration reformers had “no idea” of long-term implications. Free trade’s concentrated devastation of Midwest communities was unforeseen. But he stops short of saying these were mistakes.

5. Obama Made Everything Worse Perhaps the most deflating revelation: Starr thought Obama’s election would end America’s racial contradiction. Instead, it “intensified racial feeling” and triggered the revenge cycle. He’s now “sobered” by this mistake and doesn’t expect to see resolution in his lifetime - essentially admitting his life’s work has led nowhere.

Keen On America is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

In the first episode of What Were We Like?’s special five-part series on the history of the Presidency, Diarmaid Ferriter and Catriona Crowe talk about how the office came into being in the first place, Eamon de Valera’s role in shaping its powers, and what the president actually can and cannot do. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Which industries should cease to exist immediately? And what ‘bullshit jobs’ should they take with them? In episode 143 of Overthink, Ellie and David explore the academic and social movement of ‘Degrowth.’ They discuss the imperial mode of living that has become normalized in the Global North, explain how it relates to the ‘iron law’ of capitalism, and detail how the degrowth movement seeks to build a communist future. In particular, they explore the pillars Kohei Saito’s degrowth communism. Why are degrowth scholars such as Saito so critical of the Green New Deal? Was Karl Marx himself a ‘degrower’? And what exactly does it mean to degrow the economy? In the Substack bonus segment, your hosts continue their discussion of the pillars of degrowth, thinking about the benefits abandoning the current division of labor and shortening work hours.

Works Discussed:

Ulrich Brand and Markus Wissen, The Imperial Mode of Living: Everyday Life and the Ecological Crisis of Capitalism

John Bellamy Foster, Marx’s Ecology: Materialism and Nature

Jason Hickel, Less is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World

Matthew Huber, Climate Change as Class War: Building Socialism on a Warming Planet

Karl Marx, Capital: A Critique of Political Economy

Kohei Saito, Slow Down: The Degrowth Manifesto

Aaron Vansintjan, Andrea Vetter, and Matthias Schmelzer, The Future is Degrowth: A Guide to a World Beyond Capitalism

Enjoy our work? Support Overthink via tax-deductible donation: https://www.givecampus.com/fj0w3v

Join our Substack for ad-free versions of both audio and video episodes, extended episodes, exclusive live chats, and more: https://overthinkpod.substack.com/

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What should time mean to us?

Peter Sjöstedt-Hughes is a philosopher of mind who specialises in the thought of Alfred North Whitehead, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Benedict de Spinoza, and in fields pertaining to panpsychism and altered states of mind. In this talk, he combines insights from psychedelic experiences with an intriguing view put forward by Spinoza: that the mind can enter a rare state of eternity, not as a spirit enduring beyond the corpse, but as a mind collapsing into the eternal.

Don't hesitate to email us at [email protected] with your thoughts or questions on the episode!

To witness such debates live buy tickets for our upcoming festival: https://howthelightgetsin.org/festivals/

And visit our website for many more articles, videos, and podcasts like this one: https://iai.tv/

You can find everything we referenced here: https://linktr.ee/philosophyforourtimes

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Ready to take that big idea and turn it into a thriving business? Rachel Rodgers, author of Future Millionaire: A Young Person’s Step-by-Step Guide to Making Wealth Inevitable, shares the ingredients of a successful business venture. The best part? You don't necessarily need a lot of money to get started.

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