Quality of Mind: Realising Exponential Potential.

By Piers Thurston Making Change WorkBusiness Religion & Spirituality Management

Quality of Mind: Realising Exponential Potential. episodes

August 10Who's Really In Charge? The Search for Flow & Presence
This podcast series explores a game-changing understanding of the human mind that operates ''Before Psychology''- the Secret Source' that exponentially increases the peace, performance, and potential for any individual or organisation.
What if the 'me' trying to access flow and presence is itself the misunderstanding?

In this episode, Piers continues his conversation with Deborah Hurwitz, host of the Productivity for Perfectionists Summit®
After their first conversation opened up powerful questions around procrastination, perfectionism, flow and the deeper nature of mind, they recorded a further conversation to explore the central question underneath everything:
Who, or what, is really in charge?
Deborah begins with a distinction familiar to many high achievers, creatives and perfectionists: the difference between flow and presence. Flow can seem like the state where the self disappears and life simply moves. Presence can seem like something more deliberate: the self stepping back, observing, witnessing, noticing and trying to become more grounded.
But as the conversation unfolds, that distinction begins to loosen.Piers invites Deborah into a direct inquiry into the nature of self, attention, body, sensation, perception and awareness. Rather than trying to understand consciousness as a concept, they look directly at what is available in experience.
Where is the “me” that owns attention? Where is the personal, localised consciousness that seems to be “in here”?
Do we actually experience the body directly, or only through thought, sensation and perception? And is the body the container of consciousness, or does the body appear within consciousness?
The key distinction that emerges is this:
The body-mind is not an entity that has consciousness.
It is an activity of consciousness.
This begins to shift Deborah’s understanding of presence.
Presence is no longer another job for the self to perform. It is not the perfectionist self becoming a better observer. It is not “Deborah” taking responsibility for witnessing experience more skilfully. Instead, presence begins to look more like coming home.
By the end of the episode, Deborah sees that even the role of “observer” can become another subtle responsibility for the self.
And then something lands:
What if presence is not “I am observing”?
What if even the responsibility of being the observer can be released?
This is not a tidy teaching. It is a live inquiry.
A conversation about flow, presence, consciousness, identity, responsibility and the case of mistaken identity.
And it points to the the heart of Quality of Mind: Undoing The Case of Mistaken Identity
The one trying to be in charge may be part of the very misunderstanding we are looking through.
Highlights
02:05 — Deborah’s hunger for a different conversation
Deborah describes why the first episode went somewhere different from conventional psychology, trauma, patterning or behavioural approaches.
05:28 — Flow versus presence
Deborah names the distinction she wants to explore: flow as an unselfconscious state, and presence as being aware of being here, now.
09:19 — Where do you think you are?
Piers asks the question that shifts the episode: in either flow or presence, where does Deborah think she is?
09:48 — The location of consciousness
Deborah names the question she had almost brought into the conversation: what is the location of consciousness?
11:34 — Entering direct inquiry
Piers invites Deborah to look directly, in real time, without relying on concepts, models or inherited ideas.
15:36 — “My attention”
Deborah notices that attention moves, but still feels like “my attention”. Piers explores how the “my” is created.
16:43 — Can you find the “my” entity?
The inquiry turns towards whether the separate owner of attention can actually be found before thought, sensation and perception.
21:24 — How do you know you have a body?
Piers brings the inquiry into the body, asking how the body is known in direct experience.
25:36 — The body appears in consciousness
A key pointer: the body may not have consciousness inside it. The body may appear in consciousness.
28:13 — The missing piano and the collapse of orientation
Deborah shares an experience from music production where a missing piano part briefly removed her usual sense of labelling, positioning and organisation.
31:21 — No labelling, no positioning, no identification
Deborah sees how, in that moment, there was experience before the usual “me” had decided what it was.
34:34 — What comes and goes?
Piers points to how thoughts, sensations, perceptions and even the idea of “me” come and go within experience.
37:29 — Which “I” are we talking about?
The conversation distinguishes between the personal self and the deeper “I” of consciousness itself.
38:06 — Water and whirlpools
Piers introduces the metaphor of consciousness as water and the body-mind as a whirlpool.
39:54 — Activity, not entity
The central insight: localised consciousness is not a separate entity. The body-mind is an activity of consciousness.
40:09 — A significant distinction
Deborah recognises that “activity, not entity” changes something important.
43:09 — Whirlpools are not separate from water
The metaphor lands more clearly: the body-mind is not separate from consciousness, just as a whirlpool is not separate from water.
44:21 — The continuity of “me”
Deborah asks what explains the felt continuity of herself from childhood to now. Piers suggests that the continuity we sense may not be the continuity of the body-mind, but the continuity of consciousness itself.
46:33 — A consoling realisation
Deborah says this is a new for her, and that she finds it consoling.
47:10 — Freedom from fixing the self
Deborah begins to see that she may not need to be saddled with fixing, improving, reaching for authenticity or achieving wholeness at the level of the self.
49:39 — Psychological freedom from being the driver
Piers points to the freedom that comes from not needing to be the body-mind self pushing and managing everything.
50:06 — Real but never true
They return to the Quality of Mind phrase “real and never true”: experience is vivid, felt and alive, but not ultimately true in the way it appears.
50:33 — The sky is not damaged by the storm
Piers uses the sky and screen metaphors to point to what remains untouched by the changing weather of experience.
51:27 — Undoing the flow/presence distinction
Deborah brings the episode back to its original question: can the distinction between flow and presence now be seen differently?
52:12 — The observer as another responsibility
Deborah sees that her old understanding of presence still put the self in charge as the observer.
53:24 — Releasing even the observer
Deborah asks what happens if even the responsibility of being the observer is released.
The episode lands in Deborah’s insight: presence may be less about doing and more about coming home.
56:18 — Aperture, expansion and contraction
Piers connects the metaphor to aperture: when consciousness is contracted, separation feels real; when expanded, the separate doer is less obvious.
This episode explores
Why flow and presence can look like two different states
How the self can subtly try to manage both flow and presence
What direct inquiry is, and why it differs from conceptual understanding
The assumption that there is a “me” who owns attention
How thought, sensation and perception create the appearance of “my body”
Why the body may appear in consciousness rather than consciousness living inside the body
The difference between the body-mind as an entity and the body-mind as an activity
The water and whirlpool metaphor for individuality and consciousness
Why the sense of continuity from childhood to adulthood may not be what we think it is
How the observer role can become another subtle form of self-identification
Why coming home may be closer than trying to become present
What this means for perfectionism, self-improvement, creativity and responsibility
Why this matters
Many thoughtful, driven people spend enormous energy trying to improve themselves.
They try to manage thoughts, regulate the nervous system, access flow, practise presence, become authentic, overcome limiting beliefs and find the right inner state.
Some of that may be useful.
But this episode points somewhere more upstream.
What if the self trying to do all of that is not what we fundamentally are?
What if the one trying to manage experience is itself part of the psychological activity?
What if peace, flow and presence are not produced by the self, but become more obvious when the self is seen differently?
This does not mean life stops happening.
Creativity continues. Responsibility continues. Action continues. The form still functions.
But the body-mind no longer has to carry the impossible burden of being what we are.
Resources & links
Their first conversation The Hidden Cause of Procrastination — It’s Not ''What'' You Think
Deborah helps smart, thoughtful perfectionists get unstuck, move towards what matters, and relate differently to the pressure, overthinking and exhaustion that can come with high standards. https://cobaltcoaching.com/
Explore The Telepathy Tapes, mentioned briefly in this episode, It is included here as a pointer to curiosity about consciousness, https://thetelepathytapes.com/
Explore all things Quality of Mind: https://www.qualityofmind.biz/
3-Minute Quality of Mind Quiz
Discover how much your understanding of the mind may already be shaping your performance, peace and potential. https://piers-xruoj0sz.scoreapp.com/
Audio Intro Short Course
A short introduction to the understanding behind Before Psychology.
https://qualityofmind.online/courses/qomaudiointrocourse/
YouTube Explainer — What is Before Psychology?
A clear short introduction to why Quality of Mind points before conventional psychology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y99iy9yiCeM
Watch past clients talk about the power of Quality of Mind:
https://qualityofmind.biz/real-results/
Follow Piers Thurston on LinkedIn for regular posts and reflections:
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/piersthurston
Subscribe to the Quality of Mind YouTube channel for short insight videos exploring Before Psychology:
https://www.youtube.com/c/qualityofmind
For a more in-depth look into the Direct Inquiry and non-dual understanding behind Quality of Mind, explore TASTE THE MANGO: YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@TASTETHEMANGO

Enjoyed the episode?
If this episode speaks to you, please follow, share and leave a review. It helps more people discover a conversation that could genuinely change how they understand themselves, their work and their lives.
58 min
July 09 A Snippet Ep 24: Why Seeing Through Self-Identification Matters
From the QUALITY OF MIND Podcast
Part of the ‘Not Even 5 Mins Series’ (Ep24)
Part of the Not Even 5 Mins Series
In this short Quality of Mind snippet, we explore why seeing through self-identification matters.
The central misunderstanding is that we take ourselves to be a separate self.
A person who has to be improved, protected, managed, fixed, developed and proven.
But what if that “self” is not what we fundamentally are?
When we believe we are this separate self, life can become a constant project of identity-management. We try to control, upgrade and succeed as something that may not actually be solid in the first place.
That can create enormous stress and psychological pressure.
Quality of Mind points to the possibility of seeing through this Case of Mistaken Identity.
As that becomes clearer, something relaxes.
The fight with reality softens.
The pressure to manage the “me” eases.
More peace, clarity, resilience, creativity and possibility become available.
This is not just relevant when life feels difficult.
It is also relevant when life is already going well.
Because seeing through self-identification can support the shift from striving to thriving.
Curious? Want to know more?
Explore the full conversation with Katijn, where we go deeper into seeing no self, Direct Inquiry, the Case of Mistaken Identity, and the freedom that becomes available when self-identification begins to loosen. Full episode Here:

Explore all things Quality of Mind:
www.qualityofmind.biz
3-Minute Quality of Mind Quiz:
Discover how much your understanding of the mind may already be shaping your performance, peace and potential.
5 min
July 06 A Snippett - Ep23: Why 'Feeling Better' Is Keeping You Small (3min)
From the QUALITY OF MIND Podcast
Part of our 'Not Even 5 Mins Series'
Snippet Episode 32:
Comfort is Quietly Killing Us | Why Real Freedom Isn’t What You Think
In this excerpt from the Quality of Mind: Transforming Business podcast, we explore a powerful illusion that underpins much of modern life: the pursuit of comfort as a path to freedom.
From coping in the workplace to chasing emotional ease, we innocently limit our lives to what feels “safe” or “manageable.” But true freedom isn’t found in avoiding discomfort—it’s found in being free with it.
Discover why the pursuit of comfort often contracts our experience rather than expands it, and how real liberation lies in seeing beyond the pedestal we’ve put feelings on.

00:21 The Illusion of Comfort
00:37 True Freedom Defined
01:05 The Trap of Seeking Comfort
02:06 Workplace Realities and Coping
03:03 Embracing Discomfort for Growth
4 min
July 06 A Snippet (Ep 22): You are NOT choosing Your Thoughts (4min)
From the QUALITY OF MIND Podcast
Part of the ‘Not Even 5 Mins Series’ (Ep22)
In this short Quality of Mind snippet, we explore one of the most provocative implications of the Quality of Mind understanding: there is choosing, but no separate chooser ie. we don't have a separate free word or agency.
It can look obvious that “I” am the one making choices.
I decide.
I think.
I act.
I control.
I make things happen.
But when we slow down and look more carefully, something interesting begins to reveal itself.
There is thinking going on.
There is choosing going on.
There is doing going on.
But can we actually find a separate thinker, chooser or doer behind it all?
In this snippet, Piers points to the difference between turning Quality of Mind into another technique, compared to noticing what is already happening before the mind turns it into a personal task.
The usual assumption is that there is a separate body-mind “me” with agency and control over thoughts, actions, behaviours and outcomes. That assumption is so familiar that we rarely question it.
But but when we look at it differently directly, the picture looks different.
Thoughts arise.
Actions happen.
The body moves.
Words come.
Decisions appear.
And then the mind often claims ownership afterwards.
“I did that.”
“I chose that.”
“I thought that.”
Quality of Mind invites us to look directly at this.
Where did the thought actually come from?
Did “you” choose the thought before it appeared?
Or did the thought simply appear, with the idea of “me thinking it” arriving as another thought?
This is the simple but powerful distinction:
There is choosing, but no chooser.
There is thinking, but no thinker.
There is doing, but no separate doer.
This is not about becoming passive, fatalistic or detached from life. Life clearly continues. Choices still appear. Action still happens. Planning still happens. Responsibility still has practical meaning.
But the pressure of the separate “me” trying to control the whole system can begin to loosen.
And that matters.
Because so much of our stress, striving and overthinking comes from the assumption that there is a separate self inside the system who must get the right thoughts, make the right choices and control the right outcomes in order to be okay.
When that assumption softens, flow often becomes more available.
Not because we have learned a better way to control life.
But because we have begun to see that life was never being run by a separate controller in the first place.
Curious? Want to know more?
This is a short extract from a longer conversation with fellow coach Deborah, where we explore Quality of Mind, flow, self-identification, the illusion of free will, and what it means to notice life happening before the idea of a separate “me” takes ownership.
Full episode:
Here
Follow-up resources:
Explore all things Quality of Mind:
https://www.qualityofmind.biz/
3-Minute Quality of Mind Quiz:
Discover how much your understanding of the mind may already be shaping your performance, peace and potential:
https://www.qualityofmind.biz/quiz/
Audio Intro Short Course:
A short introduction to the understanding behind Before Psychology:
https://qualityofmind.online/courses/qomaudiointrocourse/
Video: Why Do We Describe Quality of Mind as Before Psychology? — clear short intro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y99iy9yiCeM
Watch past clients talk about the power of Quality of Mind:
https://qualityofmind.biz/real-results/
Follow Piers on LinkedIn for regular posts and reflections:
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/piersthurston
Subscribe to our YouTube channel for quick, powerful insight videos:
https://www.youtube.com/c/qualityofmind
For a more in-depth look into the Before Psychology nondual understanding behind Quality of Mind, explore here:
TASTE THE MANGO — YouTube and Substack all about Direct Inquiry. Explore for yourself:
https://tastethemango1.substack.com/
5 min
July 03A Snippet (Ep21): All Reality is Real and Never True. (3min)
From the QUALITY OF MIND Podcast
Part of the 'Not Even 5 Mins Series' Episode: 21

In this short Quality of Mind snippet (episode 14), we explore one of the core implications explored in Quality of Mind: Real but Never True.
Everything we experience is real in the sense that it is vivid, felt and alive. We can feel it in the body. It can look obvious. It can seem to be happening to us.
But that does not mean it is ultimately true in the way it appears.
Using the example of a vivid dream, this snippet points to how an experience can feel completely real while it is happening. The body can react, the heart can race, and the experience can seem undeniable. Yet when we wake up, we recognise that it was not objectively happening to us in the way it appeared.
Quality of Mind invites us to consider whether waking life is more similar than we normally assume.
Not fake.
Not imaginary.
But a perceptual creation.
Real as experience, but not true as a fixed, objective reality happening outside the mind to a separate “me”.
This matters because so much of our stress, pressure and reactivity comes from believing that our wellbeing is determined by external events and circumstances.
The difficult email.
The bank balance.
The work issue.
The family drama.
The thing that did or did not happen.
When these are taken as objectively determining us, psychological freedom narrows.
When we begin to see that experience is real but never true, something loosens. We can still deal with the practical realities of life, but with less identification, less contraction and more freedom.
Curious? Want to know more?
This is a short extract from a longer conversation with fellow coach Adam, where we go deeper into the avatar, the Case of Mistaken Identity, Direct Inquiry, and what it means to see beyond the self we usually take ourselves to be.
Full episode:
When a lifelong coach encounters Quality of Mind: exploring beyond the avatar
Follow-up resources:
Explore all things Quality of Mind:
www.qualityofmind.biz
3-Minute Quality of Mind Quiz:
Discover how much your understanding of the mind may already be shaping your performance, peace and potential
Video: Why Do We Describe Quality of Mind as Before Psychology? — clear short intro
Watch past clients talk about the power of Quality of Mind here
Follow Piers on LinkedIn for regular posts and reflections
Subscribe to our YouTube channel for quick, powerful insight videos
For a more in depth looking into the Before Psychology nondual understanding behind Quality of Mind listen here or here
TASTE THE MANGO YouTube and Sub stack all about Direct Inquiry, Explore for yourself
3 min
June 11The Game Behind the Game: Football & Quality of Mind
The podcast series explores a game-changing understanding of the human mind that operates “Before Psychology” — the secret source that exponentially increases peace, performance, and potential for any individual or organisation.
Football, Flow and the Game of Life: What Sport Reveals About the Mind
In this episode, Piers is joined again by Craig Wilman for a different kind of Quality of Mind conversation: using football as a live metaphor for the mind, performance, identity, flow and the way we relate to life.
Starting with the strange joy of Spurs fans celebrating survival, Piers and Craig explore why our happiness often looks conditional on outcomes, whether that’s a football result, a work promotion, a presentation, a business result, or life going the way we think it should.
The conversation moves through football fandom, tribal identity, penalties, pressure, VAR, flow state and the illusion of getting life “right”. Beneath the humour and football chat is a deeper question: what changes when we see that life, like football, is real, meaningful and alive, but not ultimately who we are?
This episode points to a simple but powerful insight: when we see life more like a game, we do not become less engaged. We become more present, freer, more creative and less burdened by the need for everything to go our way.
Key Discussion Takeaways
Football shows us how quickly joy, disappointment, identity and meaning can be created by narratives and thought.
Pressure is not caused by the importance of the moment, but by self-identification with the outcome.
Flow happens more naturally when there is less “me” trying to control, prove or perform.
Seeing something as “just a game” does not make it trivial. It can make us more present and alive within it.
VAR becomes a metaphor for the human habit of overthinking, over-optimising and trying to get life perfectly right.
The same freedom football fans can feel when they step outside the stadium is available in the rest of life too, even in the apparently serious stuff.
Key Chapters include:
00:00 Introduction: why football belongs on a Quality of Mind podcast
01:28 Joy vs relief: Spurs, survival and conditional happiness
06:28 Healthy and unhealthy attachment to football
07:34 “Real and never true”: football as a metaphor for life
10:49 Passion, presence and neutral attachment
15:19 Tribal identity, separation and the safety of belonging
18:24 Fan behaviour, pantomime and football as a learned role
20:19 Football hooliganism, primal instincts and contraction
24:09 England, penalties and discovering okayness after defeat
26:28 Penalties, pressure and attachment to outcome
31:33 Identity, performance and what happens when we go “off the boil”
34:14 Psychological safety and the training mindset
39:03 Flow state in sport, work and creativity
42:22 VAR: overthinking, optimisation and the joy we accidentally remove
49:17 Why okayness is already built in
53:28 The game of football and the game of life
55:48 Losing yourself in joy, then remembering you are still okay
Curious? Want to know more?
Explore all things Quality of Mind at
3-Minute Quality of Mind Quiz
Discover how much your understanding of the mind may already be shaping your performance, peace, and potential.
Audio Intro Short Course
A short introduction to the understanding behind Before Psychology.
Get started with the e-book
Follow Piers Thurston on LinkedIn for regular posts and insights exploring the Quality of Mind understanding.
58 min
May 17The Point of Now: Identity, Presence and Seeing Through the Busy Mind
The Point of Now: Presence, Identity and Seeing Through the Busy Mind
The podcast series explores a game-changing understanding of the human mind that operates “Before Psychology” — the secret source that exponentially increases peace, performance, and potential for any individual or organisation.
A simple yet powerful way to see through the noisy mind
In this episode, Piers speaks with fellow coach and author Suzie Yeulett about her new book The Point of Now, and the simple but profound direction it points towards: the present moment, the nature of thought, and the resilience that is already available beneath the noise of the mind.
The conversation explores how much of our suffering comes from living in the mind’s projections of past and future, and how presence is not something we need to find, force or practise, but something that is already here. Suzie shares how her own experience of being with her mother at the end of life revealed a natural resilience that she had not created through tools, techniques or self-improvement.
Piers and Suzie also explore the deeper Quality of Mind theme of mistaken identity: what is the “self” actually made of, and what changes when identity is seen as thought, sensation and perception rather than something solid? The episode moves from practical examples of anxiety and overthinking into a deeper inquiry into presence, feeling, identity and the possibility of living with less striving and more natural clarity.
Key Discussion Takeaways
Presence is already here - it is not something we need to manufacture or force
Much of our pressure comes from thought travelling into past and future
Identity is not fixed or solid; it appears through thought, sensation and perception
The “self” may not be something to improve, but something to see through
Feeling is not a problem to fix - we are designed to feel
This is not about adding another technique, reframe or grounding tool
Simple noticing can reveal how the mind works and naturally lighten the load
Life becomes less serious when the role of the mind is seen more clearly
Key Chapters include:

03:33 How change can happen through recognition rather than tools or techniques
05:08 Suzie explains “the point of now” and her inverted triangle framework
06:50 Presence is already here - we are not looking for something missing
08:42 The everyday operating system of busy-mindedness and control
10:08 Anxiety, overthinking and asking: “where is the problem right now?”
12:18 The “fear of fear” and how anticipation creates suffering
13:51 Realisation versus using presence as another technique
14:48 What is identity, and why “shifting identity” may miss the deeper point
16:05 Direct experience inquiry and seeing the self as psychological
18:49 The case of mistaken identity and why it keeps us in the operating mind
20:10 Taking things personally and how that contracts perspective
21:24 Neutral noticing, expanded aperture and seeing that it is not really happening to “me”
23:17 The part of us that is undamaged by experience
24:35 Why we are designed to feel, rather than distract ourselves from feeling
27:05 When the conceptual mind has nowhere to go
28:07 What babies show us about feeling without self-identification
29:38 Seeing the mind move from invisible, to subtle, to obvious
32:24 How trying to be present can reinforce the separate self
36:54 How far simple noticing can take us
38:11 Loosening the conviction of separate identity
41:10 The relief of seeing there may not be a problem to fix
41:51 Why the words are not the point - the recognition underneath is
43:47 Natural change versus more tools, protocols and strategies
50:15 Life becomes less serious when we take the mind less seriously

Curious? Want to know more?
Explore Suzie's book "The Point of Now" . Highly recommended. You can get some free chapters on the link. and Buy it here now https://amzn.eu/d/5fyskTl
Suzie's LinkedIn profile is here

Explore all things Quality of Mind at www.qualityofmind.biz
3-Minute Quality of Mind Quiz
Discover how much your understanding of the mind may already be shaping your performance, peace, and potential.
Audio Intro Short Course
A short introduction to the understanding behind Before Psychology.
Get started with the e-book
Follow Piers Thurston on LinkedIn for regular posts and reflections.
Subscribe to the Quality of Mind YouTube channel for short insight videos exploring Before Psychology.
TASTE THE MANGO — YouTube
All about Direct Inquiry. Explore for yourself.
52 min
March 23The Hidden Cause of Procrastination — It’s Not ''What'' You Think
The podcast series explores a game-changing understanding of the human mind that operates “Before Psychology” — the secret source that exponentially increases peace, performance, and potential for any individual or organisation.
What if procrastination isn’t a discipline problem at all — but a misunderstanding about how the mind works?
Are you ready to explore the real cause of procrastination?

In this episode, Piers is interviewed by Deborah Hurwitz, host of the Productivity for Perfectionists Summit. The conversation explores why so many intelligent, driven people struggle with procrastination, overthinking, and pressure — and why most solutions fail to address the real leverage point. Deborah asked some excellent questions to explore the Quality of Mind before psychology understanding.
Rather than offering tools to manage thoughts, Piers points to something more fundamental: the understanding that our experience of life arises before psychology.
Through practical examples, metaphors, and direct inquiry, the conversation explores how perfectionism, procrastination, and the “busy brain” are not problems to fix, but signals pointing to a deeper misunderstanding about the nature of the human experience.
When this misunderstanding begins to dissolve, clarity, creativity, and ease naturally return — not through effort, but through insight.

Key Discussion Takeaways
Why trying to fix your thinking with more thinking is like trying to get dry in the shower without turning the water off
The difference between application and implication when it comes to psychological insight
Why perfectionists often feel stuck between control and procrastination
How flow states reveal the absence of the “separate doer”
The idea that our experience of life consists of thought, sensation, and perception
Why psychological experiences can be real but never true
How emotions and sensations act as indicators of how much we’re believing our thinking
Why resisting feelings often intensifies them — and how simply allowing sensation dissolves the struggle
What it means to explore the space before psychology, where clarity and possibility naturally arise
Why the future we imagine through thinking is always finite, while the space before thought is infinite
Key Chapters
00:00 – Trying to fix thinking with thinking
02:15 – Why the problem isn’t the problem
04:02 – The shower metaphor and the real leverage point
05:45 – Flow state and the absence of the separate self
09:30 – Procrastination and self-identification
10:15 – There is choosing, but no chooser
14:04 – Thought, sensation, and perception
18:18 – Real, but never true
22:00 – Sensation indicators and aperture
27:30 – Why we avoid feeling
28:00 – Leaning into sensation
31:41 – What lies upstream of the busy brain
34:31 – Infinite possibility before thought
37:30 – It happens by subtraction
38:40 – The Netflix screen metaphor
41:39 – The case of mistaken identity
44:12 – From invisible, to subtle, to obvious

Curious? Want to know more?
Explore Deborah Hurwitz’s Productivity for Perfectionists Summit, where this conversation originally took place. The summit brings together leading thinkers exploring fresh approaches to productivity, performance, and the pressures many high achievers place on themselves. Highly recommended.
Explore all things Quality of Mind at
www.qualityofmind.biz
3-Minute Quality of Mind Quiz
Discover how much your understanding of the mind may already be shaping your performance, peace, and potential.
Audio Intro Short Course
A short introduction to the understanding behind Before Psychology.
Get started with the e-book
Follow Piers Thurston on LinkedIn for regular posts and reflections.
Subscribe to the Quality of Mind YouTube channel for short insight videos exploring Before Psychology.
TASTE THE MANGO — YouTube
All about Direct Inquiry. Explore for yourself.
45 min
March 06What If the Self You’re Trying to Improve Isn’t There?
The podcast series explores a game-changing understanding of the human mind that operates “Before Psychology” — the secret source that exponentially increases peace, performance, and potential for any individual or organisation.
What if a huge amount of human stress, striving, and psychological effort comes from trying to fix, improve, and manage a self that isn’t actually what we think it is? Are you ready to explore that now?
In this episode of the Quality of Mind: Transforming Business podcast, Piers is joined once again by regular guest and fellow Quality of Mind collaborator Katrijn Van Oudheudsen to explore her newly republished book, Seeing No Self.
At a time when modern culture increasingly promotes self-optimisation, productivity hacks, and constant self-improvement, this conversation questions a deeper assumption behind it all: the idea that we are a separate psychological self who must constantly be fixed, improved, and managed.
Through the lens of Direct Inquiry, Katrijn explains why this belief sits at the root of much unnecessary stress, pressure, and psychological effort — and how investigating our experience directly can reveal something very different.
Rather than offering another philosophy, mindset technique, or spiritual belief system, Seeing No Self invites readers to explore a practical and experiential approach to discovering what we actually are before the psychological identity we spend so much energy maintaining.
The conversation explores why this understanding is becoming increasingly relevant in a culture driven by identity, performance pressure, and personal responsibility — and why direct inquiry offers a simple yet powerful way to look beyond it.
Key Discussion Takeaways
The modern self-improvement culture can unintentionally reinforce psychological pressure
The belief in a separate self creates unnecessary stress and identity management
Direct Inquiry offers a practical way to investigate experience rather than adopt beliefs
Seeing through the illusion of the self reveals natural peace, intelligence, and potential
This understanding is relevant not only for wellbeing but also for leadership and performance
Key Chapters include:
00:00 The Pressure of Modern Self-Improvement
03:30 What “Seeing No Self” Actually Means
04:40 The Hidden Resource Behind the Psychological Self
07:00 Why This Understanding Is Relevant for Everyone
10:50 The Cultural Pressure to Improve Ourselves
15:40 What Direct Inquiry Really Is
27:10 Why the Illusion of Self Is More Fragile Than It Appears
38:00 Direct Inquiry vs Traditional Spiritual Approaches
42:00 Why Most People Avoid Looking Directly
44:40 Why Inquiry Is Simpler Than We Think
46:50 Who This Book Is (and Isn’t) For
Curious — want to know more?
Buy, read and review the book now.
You can find out more about Katrijn Van Oudheusden and her work on Daily Non-Duality Substack.
Explore all things Quality of Mind at
www.qualityofmind.biz
3-minute Quality of Mind Quiz
Audio Intro Short Course
Get started with the e-book.
YouTube Explainer — What is Before Psychology?
Watch past clients talk about the power of Quality of Mind here.
Follow Piers Thurston on LinkedIn for regular posts and reflections.
Subscribe to the Quality of Mind YouTube channel for short insight videos exploring Before Psychology.
TASTE THE MANGO — YouTube all about Direct Inquiry. Explore for yourself.
Enjoyed the episode?
If this episode speaks to you, please follow, share, and leave a review. It helps more people discover a conversation that could genuinely change how they understand themselves, their work, and their lives.
55 min
February 15From Mental Load to Clarity: A CEO’s Shift with Quality of Mind
The podcast series explores a game-changing understanding of the human mind that operates “Before Psychology” — the secret source that exponentially increases peace, performance, and potential for any individual or organisation.
A real-world testimonial,: A CEO, what's changed a few months after Quality of Mind coaching
Most leaders aren’t burnt out.
They’re functioning.
Delivering.
Growing.
Carrying.
But underneath that capability, there can be a constant mental load — an invisible weight of control, responsibility, and inner management that never quite switches off.
In this episode of Quality of Mind: Transforming Business, Piers is joined by Nicola Merritt, Founder and CEO of a 60-person M&A advisory firm.
On paper, things were working.
But internally, leadership felt heavier than it needed to.
This conversation isn’t about tactics, resilience strategies, or productivity systems.
It’s about what changed when Nicola began to see the source of her mental load differently — not at the level of behaviour, but at the level of understanding.
In this episode, we explore:
Why high-performing leaders often create unnecessary psychological pressure
The difference between confidence and deeper self-assurance
How control subtly becomes exhausting
What happens when the need to constantly manage thinking begins to drop
Why clarity doesn’t need to be manufactured
The shift from striving to something more sustainable
How leadership matures when mental noise settles
What changed?
Nicola didn’t lose ambition.
She didn’t reduce standards.
She didn’t step back from responsibility.
What shifted was her relationship with pressure amd clarity.
The constant mental overdrive softened.
She moved to a four-day week.
She switched off her phone on holiday.
She describes finding peace not only in stillness — but in the middle of business noise.
Not because circumstances changed.
Because understanding did.
Who this conversation is for
This episode will resonate if you:
Lead a growing organisation
Feel the invisible weight of responsibility
Are successful but quietly tired of the mental grind
Have tried systems, structures, and optimisation — but sense something deeper is missing
Quality of Mind doesn’t offer tools to manage your psychology.
It points to what sits before it. What we describe as Before Psychology
And when that is seen clearly, leadership often becomes lighter — without becoming weaker.
Resources & Links
You can find out more about Nicola here. And her business Cortus here
Explore all things Quality of Mind www.qualityofmind.biz
3-minute Quality of Mind Quiz
Audio Intro Short Course
YouTube Explainer — What is Before Psychology?
Watch past clients talk about the power of Quality of Mind here
Follow Piers on LinkedIn for regular posts and reflections
Subscribe to our YouTube channel for quick, powerful insight videos
TASTE THE MANGO YouTube and Sub stack all about Direct Inquiry, Explore for yourself
35 min

About Quality of Mind: Realising Exponential Potential.

From the publisher's feed

Quality of Mind - Exploring ’Before Psychology’ to create a foundational shift in performance, peace and potential. A game changing understanding of the Mind to transform Business. Realise exponential…