Radical Reformers is back! Listen in to Andrew Laird’s insightful conversation with relational working legend Gary Wallace, a public health specialist from Plymouth City Council.

In this episode, Gary comprehensively debunks New Public Management, highlighting its weaknesses and championing relational working. He shares his expertise on systems thinking, human learning systems, and the importance of creating a healthy system where all the bits of the system work together to support people.

Gary's approach to relational working is a masterclass in itself, offering valuable insights for public-facing practitioners, commissioners, and leaders.

Gary talks about making impactful change and continuous learning throughout this episode. Trying to make big changes can be daunting and seemingly impossible - so we thought it was really powerful when Gary said “Even if you can't change the way your service works, you can change the way you work as an individual.” And that’s where all great change starts really, isn’t it?