Religion To Reality

What happens when two Catholics spend a season in interfaith dialogue with 30 guests, including monks, rabbis, professors, a Princeton wrestling champion, and a singer-songwriter rewriting the footnotes of the Greek New Testament? In this season finale, Dave and Fr. John sit down alone to answer that question. They unpack the threads that ran through every conversation, reveal (finally) where the name Religion to Reality comes from, and land on one idea that reframes everything: life is about participation, not orchestration. If you've ever wondered whether other traditions threaten your faith or deepen it, start here.

Timestamps are approximate and based on the rough cut — update after final edit.

"Life is about participation, not orchestration." — Fr. John Gribowich

"It's not about changing things. It's about going deeper in things." — Fr. John Gribowich

"Maybe the Trinity is less to be understood and more to be experienced." — Dave Plisky

"To affirm our humanity is to affirm our divinity. That's incarnational theology 101." — Fr. John Gribowich 

Dave Plisky is the creator and host of Religion to Reality, the podcast about living an integrated life. The show grew out of a discipleship study Dave led at DeSales Media and across 50 episodes, he has interviewed Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Daoists, Sikhs, and Shinto practitioners about how they actually live their traditions. [Link: website / LinkedIn / Substack]

Fr. John Gribowich is a Catholic priest and co-host of Religion to Reality. Drawing on incarnational theology, Fr. John brings a contemplative, Merton-inflected voice to every conversation and a conviction that the Spirit speaks in ways we're not always used to.

Books & documents

What if the entire spiritual life came down to breathing in and breathing out? In our penultimate episode, we sit down with Fr. Cyprian Consiglio, Camaldolese monk, musician, and the Secretary General for Monastic Interreligious Dialogue, for a conversation that ranges from Miles Davis to the Quran, from Taoist silence to quantum physics. He even sings for us. If you've ever wondered how interreligious dialogue actually works, or why the next stage of human evolution might be consciousness itself, hit play.

Fr. Cyprian Consiglio is a Camaldolese monk, musician, composer, author, and teacher with dozens of recordings and five books, most recently Epiphanies of Nature and Grace (Orbis Books). After a ten-year term as prior of New Camaldoli Hermitage in Big Sur, California, he is now based in Rome, where he serves the Benedictine Confederation and the Cistercian Orders as Secretary General for Monastic Interreligious Dialogue.

"Artificial intelligence will never know the taste of chocolate, will never know the smell of a rose, will never know the sentiment of love I have for my son, and will never have the unitive experience with the divine." — Federico Faggin, as quoted by Fr. Cyprian Consiglio

Sacred texts & Church documents

What happens when the faith container you grew up in no longer fits and you don't want to abandon it? Former nun turned "spiritual wilderness guide" Kelly Deutsch joins Dave and Fr. John to explore the second half of life spirituality: the shift from certainty and security toward mystery, wholeness, and a wilder encounter with God. Kelly shares how 18 months of bedridden illness dismantled her identity, why practices are scaffolding rather than the point, and how guilt can be an invitation into deeper spiritual growth.

[00:03] Cold open — "Find the way that you connect with the divine… and that is your path."

[01:00] What is "second half of life" spirituality? Dave frames the three responses to a spiritual dilemma: batten down the hatches, throw out the container, or blossom beyond it.

[06:30] Kelly's story: an "audacious heart." Meditating an hour a day at 17, discovering Ignatian prayer, and joining a religious community in Rome devoted to spiritual formation.

[09:00] The turning point. A sudden, severe illness leaves Kelly bedridden for 18 months and dismantles the three big things: identity, purpose, and community.

[12:30] The origins of Spiritual Wanderlust. From a Rome term paper on Augustine and John of the Cross to a book, then a contemplative formation platform with year-long programs like the Women Mystic School, Celtic Spirituality, 20th Century Mystics, and this year's Night School.

[16:30] Who shows up — and why. The two hungers Kelly sees in seekers everywhere: depth and community.

[24:00] First half vs. second half of life. Building the ego's identity, grasping for certainty and security, until great suffering "dropkicks" us into openness to mystery.

[26:30] Religious suburbia vs. the Yukon. Kelly's signature analogy: leaving the HOA-approved color palettes of prescriptive religion for a wilderness that's both gorgeous and terrifying and learning to read your inner compass there.

[29:00] "Nothing and everything." How Kelly's Catholicism has changed: dwelling at the mystical heart of Christianity, theosis through kenosis, and why holiness is simply doing the will of God.

[35:30] Practices are scaffolding, not the point. Why rote prayer can insulate us from the wildness of God, and how to "catch the breeze" of the Spirit wherever it blows — Lectio Divina, nature, music, or conversation.

[40:00] Like-minded vs. different-minded community. The relief of finding fellow "spiritual weirdos," the danger of echo chambers, and why niceness isn't the virtue — kindness is.

[46:00] Mothers, guilt, and grace. Why guilt is an indicator worth examining, how parenting confronts us with powerlessness, and why feeling like a hot mess is often exactly where the spiritual path leads.

[55:30] Spiritual direction, done holistically. Bringing the body into direction, using Internal Family Systems ("parts work") to untangle the inner life, and honoring John of the Cross's "I know not what."

[59:30] Listening without agenda. Dropping "quidgestions," holding a sacred container, and trusting that the second half of life isn't a problem to be fixed.

[1:01:30] Where to find Kelly + a look ahead to next episode's guest, Fr. Cyprian Consiglio.

Kelly Deutsch is a spiritual director, teacher, and founder of Spiritual Wanderlust, a platform for contemplative formation and inner transformation. A former nun, she brings 20+ years of experience at the intersection of mysticism, psychology, and embodied spirituality. After a severe illness left her bedridden for over a year, Kelly found guidance in the mystics and now helps seekers experience spirituality as something lived, not just believed.

Connect with Kelly:

"Whether you can meditate, or whether you connect with God through nature or music or movement — find the way that you connect with the divine, and that you feel invited to connect with the divine. That is your path." — Kelly Deutsch

Also quotable: "Niceness isn't the virtue — kindness is." / "Feeling like a hot mess is often a really good place to be."

What if one of the most important women in the Gospels was quietly edited out of the story? New Testament scholar Dr. Elizabeth Schrader Polczer (Villanova University) joins Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich to share how a prayer in a Brooklyn garden, and a pop song, led her from a singer-songwriter career to a discovery in the world's oldest copy of the Gospel of John: the name "Mary" crossed out and changed to "Martha." Her peer-reviewed research is now changing the footnotes of the Greek text behind your Bible. Listen in. This one left Fr. John legitimately amazed.

[00:02:00] — From singer-songwriter to New Testament scholar. Elizabeth traces her spiritual journey from the Episcopal Church through Eastern meditation, and the prayer in a Brooklyn garden that changed everything: "Maybe you should talk to Mary Magdalene about that."

[00:07:00] — Down the world's deepest rabbit hole. A trip to the Brooklyn Public Library, The Complete Idiot's Guide to Mary Magdalene, and a lay person's hunch: had the text of John's Gospel been changed?

[00:10:00] — The discovery in Papyrus 66. Looking at the world's oldest copy of John (c. 200 AD), Elizabeth spots it in John 11: "the name Mary has been crossed out and changed to Martha."

[00:13:00] — "You have to stop harassing these scholars. You have to go get a degree." When no one follows up on the 50-year-old findings, Elizabeth learns Greek, earns her MA, and publishes her thesis in the Harvard Theological Review, research that will now be reflected in the footnotes of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, the critical text from which modern Bibles are translated.

[00:18:00] — Why Martha matters. The Christological confession: in the Synoptics it's Peter who declares Jesus the Messiah, but in John it's a woman. If that woman is Mary, possibly Mary Magdalene, she becomes a direct counterpart to Peter.

[00:19:00] — The mirror between John 11 and John 20. The parallels linking Lazarus's sister Mary and Mary Magdalene: the same question ("Where have you laid him?"), the rare word sudarion, a weeping Mary at a tomb watching someone she loves rise.

[00:23:00] — How (and why) a second-century editor might have done it. One letter separates Maria from Martha in Greek and adding Martha would mean "no woman can be seen as having too much authority."

[00:30:00] — How the research strengthened her faith. Elizabeth's stunning reflection on John 11:4 and the "wounded Word": "Just as Jesus's body was wounded... this text is wounded, and the Word itself carries its wounds in its body for us."

[00:36:00] — What do we actually know about Mary Magdalene after the resurrection? Legends of the South of France, the red egg of Eastern Orthodox tradition, and what the fragmentary Gospel of Mary does (and doesn't) tell us.

[00:40:00] — Mary Magdalene on screen. The Last Temptation of Christ, The Chosen, and how Pope Gregory's sermon in 591 AD, not Scripture, turned Mary Magdalene into a prostitute in the popular imagination.

[00:45:00] — A Protestant at a Catholic university. Life at Villanova, ecumenical dialogue, and why Elizabeth says her work argues for the inspiration of Scripture: "John is bigger than we've given it credit for."

[00:54:00] — Listening without agenda. Elizabeth's answer to this season's signature question: "The thing you most need to hear is hidden in the person who you immediately dismiss as other."  

Dr. Elizabeth Schrader Polczer is Assistant Professor of New Testament at Villanova University. She earned her PhD in Early Christianity and New Testament from Duke University in 2023, specializing in textual criticism, Mary Magdalene, and the Gospel of John. A former singer-songwriter, her master's thesis was published in the Harvard Theological Review and is taught in seminaries nationwide. Her first book, An Abundant Bouquet: Narrative Variants in the Gospels, is forthcoming from SBL Press.

"Just as Jesus's body was wounded, he carries his wounds — this text is wounded, and the Word itself carries its wounds in its body for us." — Elizabeth Schrader Polczer

Shinto has no dogma, no scripture, and no conversion, so what is it? In this episode, we sit down with two Shinto priests. Rev. Ann Evans, one of the few Shinto priests in North America and a certified forest therapy guide, describes the moment a gravel walkway lined with towering cedars felt like home, chants a purification prayer for us, and explains why forest bathing is her “side door to Shinto.” Then Rev. Taishi Kato, heir to a 1,000-year-old shrine in Japan, reveals why the most important practice of a Shinto priest is sweeping leaves.

“I was standing on this long gravel walkway with these huge towering cedar trees all around me, and it was an incredibly spiritual experience for me, and it just was home.”  — Rev. Ann Evans

“In Shinto, we don’t become Shinto. You don’t get converted to Shinto. It’s like Shinto just exists.”  — Rev. Ann Evans

“The forest is the therapist, and the guide opens the door.”  — Rev. Ann Evans

“The most important practice for a Shinto priest is to keep cleaning the grounds.”  — Rev. Taishi Kato

Ann Evans is a Shinto priest and ANFT-certified forest therapy guide and an author and spiritual teacher whose work explores the relationship between humans, spirituality, and nature. She is the founder and director of the Matsuri Foundation of Canada, which operates Shinmei Spiritual Centre in British Columbia, a branch shrine of Tsubaki Grand Shrine in Mie Prefecture, Japan, one of the most important shrines in the Shinto tradition, with a history spanning more than 2,000 years. Ann has been instrumental in establishing one of the few Shinto shrines in North America and is the author of Shinto Norito: A Book of Prayers, an English-language collection introducing readers to Shinto prayer and ritual practice.

Connect with Ann: matsuri.ca

Taishi Kato is a Shinto priest at Hattori Tenjingu Shrine in Japan, born the eldest son of a multi-generational family serving their 1,000-year-old shrine. He holds a Master of Arts in Religions of Asia and Africa from SOAS, University of London, and is committed to introducing Shinto to people around the world. He represented Shinto at the Religions for Peace 10th World Assembly, represented Japanese religious leaders at the G20 Religion Summit in Indonesia in 2022, co-produced an illustrated book of “Shinto moments” with two American collaborators, and in 2023 published The COVID Pandemic and the World’s Religions.

What if paradise isn't somewhere else but wherever you slow down enough to taste what's in front of you?

In this episode, renowned Sikh studies scholar Dr. Nikky Singh gives us a warm, jargon-free introduction to Sikhism: its founder Guru Nanak, its radical vision of oneness, and why a free communal meal might be the most sacred thing you'll ever eat. Whether you've never heard of Sikhism or you're deep into interfaith study, you'll walk away with practical wisdom on savoring, silencing the ego, and becoming a genuinely better listener. No prior knowledge needed. Nikky starts from the very beginning.

[02:00] – From a Punjab convent school to Sikh studies pioneer. Nikky shares her remarkable upbringing: a Sikh girl raised by Catholic nuns, a father who founded India's first academic department of religion (housed in a building shaped like a ship, with a "sail" for each faith), and the Walt Whitman poem that sent her searching for her own roots.

[10:30] – Sikhism, starting from zero. Who was Guru Nanak? Born in 1469 in a religiously vibrant but divided India, Nanak emerged with one core message: Ik Onkar,  one all-inclusive reality. His first words after his mystical vision: "There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim."

[16:00] – So how does a Sikh live a good life? Nikky unpacks the four pillars of everyday Sikh practice: Sangat (togetherness), Seva (selfless service), Kirtan (singing divine praise), and Langar (the free communal meal, the Golden Temple serves 80,000 of them daily).

[21:00] – The real enemy: ego. Why haumai ("me, me, me") is "the most toxic stuff" in Sikh thought, and the concrete practices — service, music, poetry that dissolve it.

[24:30] – Inside the gurdwara. No priest, no icon, no altar — just a 1,430-page book of sacred poetry, the Guru Granth Sahib, which includes verses by Hindu and Muslim saints alongside the Sikh Gurus.

[30:00] – A platter with three dishes. Guru Arjan offered the scripture as a metaphor: truth, contentment, and reflection — dishes meant not merely to be eaten, but savored. Nikky connects this 1604 teaching to Laurie Santos's wildly popular Yale happiness course.

[35:00] – "Can anyone come to langar?" Short answer: yes. Sit on the floor, cover your head, eat. No questions asked — as one Montreal taxi driver could confirm.

[40:30] – The turban and the Five Ks. What Sikh identity looks like, what each of the five articles of faith actually means, and Nikky's feminist reading of these symbols as carriers of compassion and courage — not mere external signs.

[47:00] – Signs vs. symbols. Fr. John and Nikky find striking common ground between Sikh symbols and Catholic sacramental theology: a symbol doesn't just point to a reality, it embodies one.

[48:30] – Listen. Embrace. Love. The Japji's sequence of suniye (listening) and maniye (embracing), and the four loves Nikky says our anesthetized culture desperately needs: love of the divine, of the body, of humanity, and of this magical world.

[55:00] – Becoming a better listener, starting today. It begins with actually hearing the answer to "How are you?"

Dr. Nikky Singh is the Crawford Professor and Chair of Religious Studies at Colby College and an internationally renowned scholar of Sikh studies. Born in Punjab, India, and educated at Wellesley College and Temple University, she is the author of numerous books, including The First Sikh: The Life and Legacy of Guru Nanak and translations of Sikh scripture published by Harvard University Press.

Explore her work: Wikipedia

"Recognize yourself in everybody else. The other is a mirror for you." — Dr. Nikky Singh

"The opposite of aesthetics is anesthetic. You take some anesthesia, you don't feel a thing. And I think that's what our culture has become." — Dr. Nikky Singh

"What is in front of us is enough. We just have to slow down long enough to taste it." — from a student reflection shared by Dr. Nikky Singh

What does it mean to be a "Ruified Christian"? In this episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Dr. Lauren F. Pfister, professor emeritus at Hong Kong Baptist University and a 30-year resident of Hong Kong, to explore the deep overlap between Confucian (Ru) tradition and Christian faith. Dr. Pfister shares his conversion story, the night his university community wept over Tiananmen Square, and the three-year beard-growing ritual he created to honor his late parents. Plus: a solo primer on the basics of Confucianism to open the episode.

Dr. Lauren F. Pfister is Professor Emeritus of Religion and Philosophy at Hong Kong Baptist University, where he taught for more than 30 years and directed the Center for Sino-Christian Studies. A specialist in comparative philosophy, Chinese intellectual history, and cross-cultural hermeneutics, he holds a PhD in comparative philosophy from the University of Hawaii at Mānoa. He is the author or editor of numerous books and 250+ scholarly publications on Confucian thought and the history of Sinology, including a landmark work on missionary-scholar James Legge. He now co-founded and serves as a mentor at the Hephzibah Mountain Aster Academy in Colorado.

"I ask what I don't know. I ask how they came to their convictions... I can only love what I know is a true need or a true hope in another. If I don't listen, how can I know what they need and what they hope?" — Dr. Lauren Pfister

What can a Daoist priest teach Christians about silence? Shifu Michael Rinaldini spent years in Trappist and Carthusian monasteries, had a reconversion to Catholicism inside a Vedanta monastery, and followed Thomas Merton's footsteps room by room before finding his home on the Daoist path in his early 40s. Ordained in Beijing as a 22nd-generation Daoist priest, Michael joins Dave and Fr. John to explore Zuowang ("sitting and forgetting") meditation, Qigong, Daoist cosmology, and why he still sends his priest-students on retreat to Catholic monasteries. If you've ever said, "I'm spiritual but not religious," Michael has advice you won't expect. 

[00:00] Cold open: "There's no separation of anything. It's all one total unity."

[02:30] Meet Shifu Michael Rinaldini, Daoist priest, Qigong teacher, and Camaldolese oblate

[04:30] Michael's winding spiritual journey: The Razor's Edge in high school, Zen in college, a yoga path to India, and a reconversion to Catholicism, inside a Vedanta monastery

[09:00] Six years of monastery-hopping: Christ in the Desert, the Carthusians in Vermont, the Trappists in Georgia and always arriving "two or three years behind Thomas Merton"

[12:00] The realization that changed everything: "Maybe I really don't want to be a monastic monk. Maybe I just want to be on the spiritual path."

[13:30] How minor health problems led to Qigong, Chinese medicine and ordination as a 22nd-generation Daoist priest in Beijing in 2003

[16:00] Inside a Daoist retreat: Zuowang, the meditation of "sitting and forgetting," and purifying the heart-mind to uncover your innate nature (Xing)

[19:30] The path to Daoist priesthood: a nine-month novitiate, a 1,000-day training and why Michael tells his students to make solitary retreats at Catholic monasteries

[21:30] Qigong, Tai Chi, acupuncture, and meditation: one system with ancient shamanic roots, not separate disciplines

[25:00] Dave asks Michael to explain the Dao. Michael's answer: "Well, I really can't." (Stay with him, he gets there.)

[26:30] Non-duality, the unitive vision of Fr. Bruno Barnhart, and the apophatic common ground between East and West

[30:30] Offering incense at the Daoist temple in the morning, the Buddhist temple in the afternoon: how China blends traditions the West keeps separate

[34:45] "I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual," and Michael's advice to find the silence of the desert at your local monastery

[39:00] Getting started with Qigong and Tai Chi: why one skillful local teacher beats a pile of books and videos ("gong" literally means skill)

[43:30] Philosophical vs. religious Daoism and the scholar-practitioners who insist that reading the Tao Te Ching without practicing stillness is "just an intellectual thing"

[46:30] What it means to go into your own emptiness and how that squares with human dignity

[54:00] Daoist cosmology 101: pre-heaven and post-heaven, the Taiji, yin and yang, and the path of working your way back up to the One

[57:30] Two sides of Daoism: Michael's meditation-focused Dragon Gate lineage vs. the ritual-rich Celestial Masters tradition (yes, including exorcism)

[61:30] The one ritual Michael keeps: the ordination ceremony, robes, vows, incense, and blessings with the whisk

[64:30] "Go home and grow as a priest in the heart"; the advice that became a 600-page book

[65:30] Dave's closing reflections and a book recommendation for the Daoism-curious

Shifu Michael Rinaldini is the director of the Qigong & Daoist Training Center in Sebastopol, California. Ordained in China in 2003 as a 22nd-generation Daoist priest, he founded the American Dragon Gate Lineage in 2006 and offers advanced Qigong and Daoist training and certification internationally. A Camaldolese oblate whose spiritual roots span Catholic monasticism, Zen, and Vipassana, he has written seven practice journals, most recently A Taoist Practice Journal: Interreligious Dialogue, Taoism and Christianity, Extraordinary Vessels, and Taoist Cultivation (2023).

Connect with Michael:

"There's a very simple definition of non-duality. There's no separation of anything. It's all one total unity." — Shifu Michael Rinaldini

"Maybe I really don't want to be a monastic monk. Maybe I just want to be on the spiritual path." — Shifu Michael Rinaldini

"How can you go deep into these healing energies without the process of the silence and the stillness that is cultivated?" — Shifu Michael Rinaldini

"First find a good teacher, and then read the books." — Shifu Michael Rinaldini

"Go home and grow as a priest in the heart." — the charge Michael received at his ordination

What if the world isn't divided into sacred and secular because everything is already sacred? In our first Daoism episode, bestselling author and martial artist Deng Ming-Dao (365 Tao) walks two Catholic hosts through the heart of Daoist practice: why self-cultivation means removing obstacles rather than becoming "better," how the breath bridges body and spirit, what a Daoist diet looks like, and why evil is a human problem, not a divine one. A calm, generous conversation full of unexpected overlaps with the Gospel and a masterclass in listening from a tradition whose word for "sage" literally contains the character for ear.

[00:03] From an unhappy kid to a lifelong path. Ming-Dao found the Tao Te Ching on his mother's bookshelf before his teenage years and kept noticing the word Tao everywhere, from Zen texts to art history. What hooked him: a step-by-step system that begins with the physical and leads to the spiritual.

[00:06] Self-cultivation isn't self-improvement. The Daoist view: you are already naturally pure and good, but obscured by bad habits, bad ideas, and socialization. "The idea is not to make yourself better. The idea is to divest yourself of these obstacles."

[00:07] The breath is the bridge. Purification starts with the body; the breath, both voluntary and involuntary, is the link between body and mind. That's the simple thesis of Qigong.

[00:12] What transformation actually looks like. Better health, flexibility, stamina, and calm and a surprising pattern Ming-Dao has seen repeatedly: about a month into practice, students often get sick as the body "pulls the illness out."

[00:14] A Daoist approach to eating. Whole grains (in moderation), vegetables in three colors per meal, minimal meat, fermented foods, seasonal adjustment, home cooking over restaurants  and skip the alcohol.

[00:18] "Religious" vs. "philosophical" Daoism is a scholarly construct. Who cares what your philosophy is if you're decrepit and unhealthy? Ming-Dao explains why he practices without ceremony, superstition, or fear of divine punishment.

[00:24] "How will you be a person?" His grandmother's kitchen held both Buddhist and Daoist figures. In Chinese communities, the question was never "How will you be religious?" traditions are shared like neighbors share a street.

[00:28] What if everything is divine? Air, water, food, life itself: given to us, unconditionally, by a world we did nothing to earn. "If we really open our eyes, this is a sacred world."

[00:35] The problem of evil. Daoism has no existential evil. Natural disasters aren't "evil"; only human behavior is. Which means behavior is a choice, and mercy extends to everyone: "you rescue everybody, both the good and the not good."

[00:42] Festivals as embedded philosophy. From Tomb Sweeping Day to the poet's festival in May, the lunar calendar carries Daoist lessons into the whole community, hear a story of honor every year of your life, and you can't help but absorb it.

[00:48] Fame, "enough," and the useless tree. Daoism warns against celebrity and status. The parable: useful trees get cut down for timber; the gnarled, "useless" tree survives.

[00:51] Finding a true teacher. Why lineage matters, what it was like being the demonstration partner for 13 years, and the master from Huashan who fled the Cultural Revolution to carry his tradition to America. "Even the masters need masters."

[00:56] Mercy, compassion — can we just say kindness? Don't hide behind semantics. Kindness to others is kindness to yourself, but kindness is not indulgence, and self-cultivation is not a tool to force yourself into someone else's ideal (the story of the biotech CEO who really wanted to play violin and walk on glaciers).

[01:03] The art of listening. What Ming-Dao listens for in every conversation: what the person really wants, a touchstone idea, or permission to be free.

Deng Ming-Dao is an author, artist, and teacher whose books, including 365 Tao, Chronicles of Tao, Scholar Warrior, Everyday Tao, The Lunar Tao, and The Living I Ching, have been translated into numerous European and Asian languages. Trained in Chinese martial arts since 1975 under teachers from Beijing, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the Daoist mountains Huashan and Wudangshan, he specializes in the internal arts of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, and Taijiquan. His forthcoming book, The Complete Tao Te Ching, publishes this November from Shambhala.

Connect with Deng Ming-Dao: dengmingdao.com

"Do you know the Chinese word for sage means somebody who listens well? It has the character for ear in it." — Deng Ming-Dao [00:00]

"The idea is not to make yourself better. The idea is to divest yourself of these obstacles." — Deng Ming-Dao [00:07]

"If we really open our eyes, this is a sacred world, because we are the humble recipients of everything that keeps us alive." — Deng Ming-Dao [00:31]

"Evil is not a divine problem. It is not a holy problem. It is a human problem." — Deng Ming-Dao [00:36]

"That's not kindness. That's indulgence." — Deng Ming-Dao [01:01]

What happens when your spiritual calling doesn't align with the tradition you grew up in or the one your spouse practices? In this double episode, world religions teacher Bryan Lorentz recalls the fifth-grade moment he begged his dad to let him leave home for a monastery, and the answer that changed his life. Then interfaith minister Clay Dockery shares what a decade of working with Jewish-Christian couples taught him about raising kids, keeping families together, and listening without an agenda. Two stories, one lesson: you don't have to leave where you are to find the divine.

"It's really easy to steal away to the mountains to find peace. It's much harder to find it from where you are." — Bryan Lorentz (quoting his father)

"We control the inputs. We can't control the outputs. So we give the best inputs that we can, and then we see where the outputs go." — Clay Dockery

"I don't think you have to talk about God to be doing God's work." — Clay Dockery

Bryan Lorentz teaches world religions at Sacred Heart Preparatory in Atherton, California, where he has spent nearly two decades teaching, leading retreats, and guiding immersion experiences across the Bay Area. He holds a master's degree in human development and psychology from Harvard, where he studied neuroscience and decision-making, and his spiritual formation has deepened through extended study in monasteries, temples, and universities across Nepal, Tibet, India, Sri Lanka, and China. A professional singer and guitarist, Bryan serves as music director at St. Denis Church in Menlo Park. He runs and meditates in the redwoods of the Santa Cruz Mountains, and with his 14-year-old son, Xavi, runs the family beekeeping venture Bay B's, making Bay Area wildflower honey.

Clay Dockery is a nonprofit leader and seminary graduate whose work focuses on interfaith families, identity, and community life. He holds a Master of Divinity from Union Theological Seminary and spent roughly a decade with Interfaith Community, writing curriculum and running programming that supports couples and children navigating Jewish-Christian family life. Today, Clay serves as Director of Operations at Renaissance Youth Center, a diverse community-based organization, where he leads organizational systems, staff support, and program infrastructure.

Connect with Clay: