What does it really mean to live an integrated faith life? In this powerful bonus episode, Father John Gribowich sits down with Cindy Black, a 26-year veteran of Catholic ministry, for an intimate conversation about discovering God in unexpected places and people.

Cindy shares her compelling journey from a "porta crib Catholic" who rarely attended Mass to becoming a passionate minister serving in youth ministry, diocesan leadership, Catholic radio, and parish evangelization. But this isn't just another conversion story, it's a profound exploration of how God shows up in bar conversations with atheists, friendships with those the church has wounded, and the sacred space of simply listening without agenda.

Through raw honesty and vulnerability, Cindy and Father John tackle the messy realities of ministry today moving beyond "winning arguments" to genuine encounter, and recognizing that every person, regardless of their beliefs or lifestyle, reveals something about the mystery of God's love.

If you've ever felt that your strongest encounters with God happened outside traditional church settings, or if you're wrestling with how to authentically love people the church has marginalized, this conversation will resonate deeply.

Finding Faith Through Witness (0:00 - 7:00)

From Relational Ministry to Radical Love (7:00 - 14:00)

God in the Margins (14:00 - 22:00)

Accompaniment Over Conversion (22:00 - 31:00)

Formation as Transformation (31:00 - 40:00)

The Art of Accompaniment (40:00 - 52:00)

Cindy Black has served in Catholic ministry for 26 years across multiple roles including youth ministry director, diocesan director of youth and young adult ministry (9 years), Catholic radio station team member (8 years), and currently serves in the Office of Evangelization at her home parish in Indiana. She specializes in accompanying those becoming Catholic and teaches Theology of the Body. Cindy is known for her radical openness to encountering God in unexpected people and places, and her commitment to witnessing God's love without judgment or agenda.

Memorable Quotes

"The truth isn't a set of moral ideals. The truth is a person whose identity is love." - Cindy Black

"If every relationship and every encounter I want what's best for the person in front of me that's made in the image and likeness of God, whether they believe it or not, or believe in God or not... the world would be transformed." - Cindy Black

"God is either everything, Christ is either everything or he is nothing." - Father John

"My job in ministry is to be witnesses... and to not be an obstacle to get in the way of what the Lord wants to do in somebody." - Cindy Black

"The most prophetic way to live the Christian life in the context we're living in today is to radically listen without agenda when we encounter people." - Father John

"We've forgotten that we belong to each other." - Mother Teresa (quoted by Cindy)

"Modern man listens more to witnesses than teachers. And if we listen to teachers, it's because they're first witnesses." - Pope Paul VI (quoted by Cindy)

Books & Teachings

Catholic Programs

Key People Mentioned

Theological Concepts

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

This is a simple trailer to let you know that next up for Religion to Reality is a series of bonus episodes. Every other week, we'll release the full conversation we had with one of our guests from Season One. 

Have a listen to this teaser to hear a quick montage of our favorite topic revealed to us throughout the season.

See you for Season Two in 2026!

In this powerful season finale of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich reflect on their journey through over two dozen interviews, distilling the most transformative lessons about living an integrated spiritual life. They explore why listening, not activism, may be the most prophetic witness the Church can offer today, challenge traditional clericalism from surprising angles, and discover that belonging must come before belief. Through conversations with Stephen White, Fr. Thomas Gaunt, and Paul Fahey, this episode reveals how authentic relationships, radical listening, and the sacramental worldview can transform both individual lives and Church communities.

The Art of Radical Listening (4:00)

Discipleship vs. Activism (6:30)

Clericalism from the Bottom Up (8:00)

The Fluidity of Roles (12:00)

Research as Sacred Listening (20:00)

The Indelible Mark of Baptism (25:00)

Belonging Before Belief (33:00)

Seven Themes That Emerged This Season (38:00)

Stephen White - Executive Director of the Catholic Project at Catholic University of America. Steven brings critical insights on clericalism, the professionalization of discipleship, and lay responsibility in Church renewal.

Fr. Thomas Gaunt, SJ - Executive Director of the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University. With over 40 years as a Jesuit priest, Fr. Tom shares how agenda-free research reveals unexpected truths about Catholic belonging.

Paul Fahey - Limited Licensed Professional Counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. Paul introduces the revolutionary idea that belonging must precede belief and explains how person-centered counseling aligns perfectly with Catholic anthropology.

"If I make right belief or right behavior the litmus test for belonging, I've undermined the gospel." - Paul Fahey

"It's very hard these days to tell the difference between discipleship and activism." - Stephen White

"Listening is everything. I think it may sound frustrating for some people because it's like, well if you just listen, then no one ever does anything. But listening is part of paying attention—waiting for God to reveal something greater than if you were just jumping in trying to fix something." - Father John Gribowich

"These are not people disengaged from their faith. These may be people disengaged from Sunday mass, but that's not disengaged from their faith." - Fr. Thomas Gaunt

"There are some effective people who are preaching, who are not ordained, not necessarily because they have robust theological education, but because they've had a really profound encounter with Christ." - Fr. John Gribowich

Religion to Reality explores how Catholics can live integrated lives where faith isn't compartmentalized but permeates every aspect of existence. Based on extensive research, including over two dozen interviews with Church leaders, scholars, and practitioners, this podcast seeks to bridge the gap between religious practice and lived reality. This concludes Season 1 of Religion to Reality.

Hosts:

Special thanks to all our season guests: Kathy Lorentz, Dr. Bill Keimig, Cindy Black, Fr. Joe Gibino, Christina Semmens, Fr. James O'Shea, Monica Martinez, Fr. David Roman, Andrea Sarubbi, Renée Roden, Emily Ricci, Mary Glowaski, Josh Packard, Luisamaria Hernandez, Mike St. Pierre, and Peter Andrastek.

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

In this insightful episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich step back from theory to examine the hard data behind Catholic discipleship and faith formation. They explore surprising findings from their comprehensive discipleship study and discuss what the numbers reveal about modern spiritual practices, evangelization comfort levels, and the changing landscape of faith in America.

Featuring interviews with three leading voices in faith research, Hans Plate (Vinea Research), Josh Packard (Future of Faith), and Fr. Joseph Gibino (Diocese of Brooklyn), this episode bridges the gap between data and pastoral practice. Discover what Gen Z really thinks about God, why 100% of people with spiritual directors found them through a spiritual community to which they already belong, and how the Synod on Synodality is reshaping the Church's approach to listening.

Key Takeaway: Data isn't just for businesses—it's essential for understanding how to meet people where they are in their faith journey and creating meaningful pathways to deeper discipleship.

[00:00:00] Opening Reflection

[00:01:00] Why Data Matters for the Church

[00:02:00] Surprising Study Findings

[00:04:00] The Omnichannel Approach to Faith

[00:06:00] Interview with Hans Plate (Vinea Research)

[00:09:00] Rethinking Evangelization

[00:13:00] The Mormon Example

[00:15:00] The Lived Gospel

[00:17:00] Interview with Josh Packard (Future of Faith)

[00:22:00] "Young People Aren't Leaving—Their Parents Already Did"

[00:25:00] A Golden Opportunity

[00:28:00] The Power of Lived Example

[00:31:00] Interview with Fr. Joe Gibino (Diocese of Brooklyn)

[00:36:00] The Synod's Impact on Parish Identity

[00:39:00] Synod vs. Discipleship Study

[00:41:00] Addressing Both Sides

[00:47:00] Trusting in God's Love

Hans Plate - Founder & President, Vinea Research. Hans partnered with Religion to Reality to conduct the discipleship study. He also runs Pensari, a healthcare research company, and brings extensive expertise in understanding highly engaged Catholics.

Josh Packard - Co-founder, Future of Faith. Formerly the Director of Spring Tide Institute for Research, Josh provides custom research for faith communities and offers crucial insights into Gen Z's relationship with faith and spirituality.

Father Joseph Gibino - Vicar of Evangelization, Diocese of Brooklyn, Pastor of St. Charles Borromeo Church. Father Joe led diocesan-level Synod on Synodality efforts and champions family-centered faith formation.

"Listen and silent share the same letters, and if we haven't silenced ourselves, then we can't listen." - Father Joe Gibino

"The most compelling gospel is the one that's lived." - Father John Gribowich

"Young people are not leaving the church. Their parents are. In many cases, their parents left the church." - Josh Packard

"We as Catholics are always directly and indirectly advertising our faith—we are human billboards." - Hans Plate (quoting Matthew Kelly)

"What could possibly happen in this whole process that's going to lead to the utter collapse of God's love? It's just impossible." - Father John Gribowich

Join us for the season finale as Dave and Fr. John tie everything together and explore how to truly live an integrated life. Don't miss this culminating conversation that brings together all the insights from Season 1!

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

How do you find authentic Catholic community in a world that's more connected yet more isolated than ever? In this episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore why community keeps emerging as a central theme in faith formation, and why finding the right fit can be so challenging.

From whiskey tastings to Catholic Worker houses to digital book clubs, discover how different forms of community serve different spiritual needs. You'll hear honest conversations about parish shopping, the struggle to commit, and why sometimes the best community isn't the one with perfect liturgy or programs, it's the one where you show up consistently. Whether you're searching for your spiritual home or wondering if online connections can ever replace in-person fellowship, this episode offers practical wisdom for the journey.

Community Happens When People Need It (2:00-3:30)

Whiskey and the Word: An Unconventional Small Group (4:00-14:00) Guest: Dr. Mark Heyman, Licensed Psychologist & Small Group Leader

Living in Community: Lessons from Catholic Worker Movement (20:00-32:00) Guest: Renée Roden, Journalist & Catholic Worker Member

Digital vs. In-Person Community (37:00-52:00) Guest: Luisamaria Hernandez, DeSales Media Success Consultant

Dr. Mark Heyman Licensed psychologist and host of the Whiskey and the Word men's group at St. Bridgid Parish in San Diego. Mark brings together men for fellowship, faith discussion, and whiskey appreciation—creating a space where authentic conversation happens organically.

Renée Roden Journalist, author, and Catholic Worker community member who writes about faith, culture, and the challenges of living radical hospitality. Featured previously on R2R Episode 7 discussing the expressive fruits.

Luisamaria Hernandez Success and Solutions Consultant at DeSales Media with extensive experience in Catholic young adult ministry, including five years co-leading the young professional women's group at Harvard Catholic Center.

"It's so hard to convert your own heart over and over and over again. And if you're not in a healthy community that supports you in that journey and is full of people committed to that together, it's going to go south so quickly." — Renée Roden

"Every group can't be all things to all people." — Fr. John Gribowich

"If you have that consistency, you're going to naturally be more committed. And I mean, structure would lead to clarity." — Luisamaria Hernandez

"We are just relational beings, right? That's just what we are. That's exactly how we are able to come to discover who we are." — Fr. John Gribowich

[00:00] Introduction: Why community keeps coming up in discipleship conversations
[02:00] Fr. John on discovering yourself through community encounters
[04:00] Mark Heyman: How Whiskey and the Word started
[05:30] The structure (or lack thereof) of their weekly gatherings
[08:00] Why observation periods help newcomers feel comfortable
[10:00] The debate: Does focusing on whiskey exclude some people?
[13:00] Every group can't be all things to all people
[15:00] Dave's parish shopping journey and coming full circle
[20:00] Renee Roden: Community life is harder than it looks
[22:00] Why Catholic Worker families are thriving
[24:00] The danger of becoming your own dictator
[27:00] Navigating different Catholic expressions in Worker houses
[32:00] The importance of clarification of terms in community
[37:00] Luisamaria on digital vs. in-person community
[42:00] How commitment creates consistency
[45:00] Practical tips: Join the WhatsApp groups and talk to people after Mass
[50:00] Why virtual spaces work best for task-oriented gatherings

Join us next week as we dive into data from other studies and take a closer look at the Synod on Synodality. How is the global Church listening to its members, and what does that mean for your local parish?

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

Are podcasts reshaping how Catholics engage with their faith? In this episode of Religion to Reality, we explore the explosive growth of Catholic podcasting and what it means for modern faith formation. From survivors finding their voice to Latino communities building networks, discover why this medium is uniquely positioned to meet people where they are—both spiritually and literally.

Paul Fahey - Host of Third Space podcast, limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist who focuses on survivors of church-related abuse. Paul stumbled into podcasting a decade ago and found it uniquely suited to catechesis through dialogue rather than static writing.

Christina Semmens - Host of Say Yes to Holiness With 230+ episodes under her belt, Christina brings a framework of head-heart-hands-feet to integrated Catholic living. Her podcast emerged from her book work and has become a continuous discernment journey.

Jose Manuel de Urquidi - Founder of the Juan Diego Network Leading a podcast network dedicated to Latino Catholics with shows covering everything from church history to children's stories. His mission: evangelize, form, and entertain—preferably all three at once.

01:00 - "I can listen to a podcast while driving, running, doing dishes, mowing the lawn" - Why convenience matters for busy Catholics

05:00 - The fundamental question: What even counts as "the church" in new media?

07:00 - "There's a lot of bad Catholic content out there that misrepresents God" - The dark side of unregulated faith content

12:00 - The head-heart-hands-feet framework for integrated spiritual assessment

15:00 - Why passion and joy matter more than metrics in discernment

18:00 - "What unsuccessful podcasts don't want you to know: it was really just for us all along"

23:00 - The critical realization: Are we preaching to the choir while ignoring the ocean?

26:00 - Why St. Ignatius's book-driven conversion is no different than what a podcast can do

28:00 - The internet as culture, not just communication tool

In our next episode, we're diving into what the data tells us about community—why it matters and how it shapes discipleship in measurable ways. 

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Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study. 

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Are you attending Mass regularly but struggling to live out your faith in everyday life? You're not alone. In this episode of Religion to Reality, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore why so many Catholics feel confident in their sacramental life but struggle with the expressive fruits of discipleship, particularly the corporal and spiritual works of mercy.

Drawing from their groundbreaking discipleship study, they sit down with three inspiring guests who are living these works of mercy in radically different ways: Renee Roden from the Catholic Worker Movement, Fr. Jim O'Shea of Reconnect Brooklyn, and Christina Semmens of Say Yes to Holiness. Together, they unpack what it truly means to become Eucharist in the world and how small acts of mercy in our daily lives can transform both ourselves and our communities.

Renee Roden - Journalist, author, and member of the Catholic Worker movement. Former marketing team member at DeSales Media and Notre Dame alumna. Renee brings firsthand experience of living in intentional community while serving those in need.

Fr. Jim O'Shea - Passionist priest and co-founder of Reconnect, an organization providing training, opportunity, and direction for at-risk youth in Brooklyn's Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood. Fr. Jim has dedicated his life to building bridges between disparate communities.

Christina Semmens - Author and founder of Say Yes to Holiness, a ministry dedicated to helping Catholics recognize and embrace God's call to holiness in everyday life. Christina specializes in helping people identify works of mercy already present in their daily routines. 

"There is no division between people who do the helping and the helped. I'm not just a helper. The point of the works of mercy is we're all supposed to be doing it for each other." - Renee Roden

"The Eucharist contains a call for us to go be Eucharist in the world, right? To become what we received." - Renee Roden

"If we do it well, our narrative is going to be upset. And none of us want that narrative messed with." - Fr. Jim O'Shea

"One of the biggest things I think we all can do is start listening to the people. There's so many people and groups of people that we have written off." - Fr. Jim O'Shea

"Until we had talked about what the corporal works of mercy and spiritual works of mercy were, he didn't realize that he was feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked, and instructing the ignorant by simply sitting down with his younger brother after school, getting him a snack and then helping him with his homework." - Christina Semmens

Join us next week as we’ll be getting a little meta with it and talk about podcasting.

Learn More About the Discipleship Study: Religion to Reality is built on comprehensive research into how Catholics are living their faith today. Visit our website for more details and resources from the study.

Why do so many Catholics struggle to share their faith, even when they want to? In this episode, Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore the personal and professional barriers that prevent Catholics from evangelizing effectively. Through conversations with Monica Martinez, parish lead at Hallow, Emily Ricci, founder and CEO of Gloriam Marketing, and Peter Andrastek, a senior consultant at the Evangelical Catholic, they discover that the solution isn't more training or techniques, but something far more fundamental: authentic relationship, genuine encounter, and what you might call "pre-evangelization." If you've ever felt uncomfortable with the word "evangelization" or wondered why your parish's outreach efforts fall flat, this episode offers a refreshing perspective that puts listening, presence, and personal holiness before programs and strategies.

Monica Martinez - Parish Lead at Hallow, a chart-topping Catholic prayer app. Monica brings extensive experience in evangelization ministry and parish engagement, having worked with parishes across the country to understand what works in getting people to encounter Christ.

Emily Ricci - Founder and CEO of Gloriam Marketing, a Catholic marketing agency that serves parishes and Catholic businesses. Emily specializes in helping Catholic organizations communicate more effectively and reach the people they're called to serve.

Peter Andrastek - Senior Consultant at The Evangelical Catholic with over 20 years of experience in adult faith formation. Peter works with faith communities from college campuses to military bases, helping establish vibrant Catholic communities focused on authentic discipleship.

"If we reduce evangelization to something you can just train someone for, just a set of skills or a technique for saying something, we reduce evangelization to the manipulation of human techniques." - Peter Andrastek

"The person who feels called to evangelize needs to also equally feel called to be evangelized by the person they are trying to evangelize." - Fr. John Gribowich

"Everyone is a walking Christ already, so what are we doing to honor and reverence the walking Christ in our midst?" - Fr. John Gribowich

"It's not so much about saying 'tell me that God loves me.' It's experiencing the love of God." - Monica Martinez

"People want to [evangelize], we just have no idea how to. That's not something that most of us were taught how to do in faith formation." - Emily Ricci

Join us next week as we explore the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, from understanding their meaning to how we can better live them out in our daily lives.

Religion to Reality explores the gap between religious belief and lived experience, bringing research-based insights from the Called Learning Community's discipleship study into conversation with real practitioners. Hosted by Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich, each episode examines how Catholics can move from simply identifying as religious to living out their faith in authentic, transformative ways.

If you found value in this conversation, please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Ratings and reviews help others discover the show!

Website: religiontoreality.org
Join the Community: Sign up for free online gatherings at calledcommunity.com

What does it mean to truly hear someone versus simply listening? In this episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore the transformative practice of spiritual direction—examining how this ancient tradition helps us tune into God's presence in our daily lives. Through intimate conversations with three practitioners, discover why seeing yourself as lovable might be the most important spiritual work you'll ever do, and learn how one diocese is making spiritual direction accessible to thousands. Whether you're seeking your first spiritual director or wondering if this practice is right for you, this episode offers practical wisdom and surprising data about one of Catholicism's most powerful yet underutilized resources.

Mary Glowaski is a spiritual director based in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and serves as Dave's spiritual director

Father John Gribowich reflects on the intersection of sacramental confession and spiritual direction

Deacon Tom Whalen coordinates spiritual direction for the Diocese of Charleston, South Carolina

Hans Plate is founder and president of Vinea Research and partner on the Religion to Reality discipleship study

The Interior Journey Moving the 18 inches from head to heart, integrating theological knowledge with lived experience, and recognizing that spiritual direction is about what's being done in us rather than what we accomplish.

Access and Availability The gap between those who would benefit from spiritual direction and those who can access it, plus innovative diocesan solutions to increase accessibility.

The Role of Self-Love Understanding ourselves as lovable as the foundation for experiencing God's love—a theme that emerged repeatedly across conversations.

Finding the Right Director Practical wisdom on navigating the search process, recognizing it takes time, trust, and often multiple attempts.

"Too often I find people, Dave, that it is not that they don't feel loved, they don't see themselves as lovable."
— Mary Glowaski (06:45)

"Spiritual direction is about looking at what's being done in us."
— Mary Glowaski (06:00)

"I'm not really interested in directing them anywhere. In fact, I think spiritual direction is just a bad term."
— Father John Gribowich (15:00)

"I'm always going to be in awe of what God is doing, and so therefore, how do I show up to be able to reverence that presence in the person."
— Father John Gribowich (15:00)

"This is beyond just, I'm going to keep your trust. It's going to, I'm going to keep you in love."
— Mary Glowaski (11:00)

"God will reveal his love to us by any means necessary."
— Father John Gribowich (16:00)

"To listen is to blinker yourself... but to hear is to put yourself on the same wavelength as the speaker."
— Marshall McLuhan, The Medium and the Light (02:00)

"It's not only finding a spiritual director, but it's finding one that you think you can open up to and have this relationship... finding that right match."
— Hans Plate (26:00)

"It was quite obvious to me... there is an incredible need."
— Deacon Tom Whalen on discovering the spiritual direction gap (18:00)

Join us next week as we explore evangelization—examining personal barriers, professional experiences, and how to share faith authentically in the modern world.

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, created by Dave Plisky and produced by Conor Donnelly. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and help others discover the show by leaving ratings and reviews.

In this thought-provoking episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich explore the significant generational gap in Catholic discipleship and church attendance. Drawing from their recent discipleship study of mass-attending Catholics, they examine why younger generations are largely absent from churches and what can be done to bridge this divide.

The hosts speak with three experienced Catholic leaders who share practical insights on meeting the unique spiritual needs of different age groups: Mike St. Pierre (Diocese of Allentown Superintendent and former Catholic Campus Ministry Association Executive Director), Paul Morisi (Principal of Bay Ridge Catholic Academy and former Director of Youth and Young Adult Faith Formation for the Diocese of Brooklyn), and Friar Rick Riccioli (Franciscan Pastor in Brooklyn).

Opening Discussion: The Generational Church Gap [00:00:00 - 06:00]

Interview with Mike St. Pierre [06:00 - 15:30]

Conversation Analysis [15:30 - 21:00]

Interview with Paul Morisi [21:00 - 32:00]

Interview with Friar Rick Riccioli [34:00 - 42:00]

Closing Reflections [42:00 - 48:00]

Mike St. Pierre

Paul Morisi

Friar Rick Riccioli, OFM

Website: religiontoreality.org
Community: Called Learning Community at calledcommunity.com

Next Episode Preview: Spiritual Direction - exploring accessibility and role in discipleship

Religion to Reality is an initiative of DeSales Media, created by Dave Plisky and produced by Connor Donnelly. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and help others discover the show by leaving ratings and reviews.