Religion To Reality

What happens when a champion wrestler and Rhodes Scholar has a vision of Christ in an empty English church and then walks straight into a Buddhist monastery? In this episode of Religion to Reality, Kittisaro Weinberg shares his path from Chattanooga, Tennessee to Ajahn Chah's forest monastery in Thailand, two full years of silent retreat, and three decades building an interfaith sanctuary in South Africa. It's a rich, personal conversation about surviving typhoid fever, falling in love as a monk and a nun, and what it really means to listen without an agenda.

Hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich close out their season-long Buddhism arc with one of their most wide-ranging conversations yet. Kittisaro Weinberg, raised in a Unitarian household by a Jewish father and Southern Baptist mother in the Bible Belt, takes listeners through his unlikely journey: a wrestling career at Princeton, a Rhodes Scholarship at Oxford, a life-altering vision of Christ in a rural English chapel, and, almost immediately after, his first encounter with a Buddhist monk. From there, the story moves to Ajahn Chah's forest tradition in Thailand, a near-fatal bout of typhoid, monastic life in the UK, falling in love with fellow monastic Thanissara, and an improbable move to South Africa just as Nelson Mandela was elected president. Along the way, Kittisaro reflects on his two year-long silent retreats, the Buddhist-Christian common ground he's spent decades exploring, and how he practices deep listening every single day.

Kittisaro Weinberg grew up in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and graduated from Princeton as a Rhodes Scholar before studying at Oxford. He ordained as a Buddhist monk with Ajahn Chah in Thailand in 1976 and spent 15 years in monastic life, including helping establish Chithurst Monastery and Devon Vihara in the UK. After disrobing in 1991, he and his wife Thanissara co-founded Dharmagiri Sacred Mountain Retreat in South Africa, where they spent over 20 years teaching and supporting community development in rural KwaZulu-Natal. He holds an MA in Buddhist Classics from Dharma Realm Buddhist University and co-authored Listening to the Heart: A Contemplative Journey to Engaged Buddhism. In 2017, he and Thanissara co-founded Sacred Mountain Sangha in northern California.

A former New York City Ballet dancer turned Buddhist scholar and contemplative, Eva Natanya has spent decades holding two traditions, Catholicism and Tibetan Buddhism, not as a contradiction, but as one integrated life. In this episode of Religion to Reality, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Eva to talk about emptiness, the resurrection, fear, authenticity, and why she refuses to call herself "hyphenated." It's one of the most theologically rich conversations of the season; give yourself room to sit with it.

Eva Natanya, PhD, is co-founder, vice president, and resident teacher at the Center for Contemplative Research in Crestone, Colorado. A scholar of Indian and Tibetan Buddhism, Christian theology, and comparative religion, she spent nine years as a professional ballet dancer with the New York City Ballet and the Royal Ballet before earning her MA at the Graduate Theological Union and her PhD in religious studies from the University of Virginia. She has collaborated with Dr. B. Alan Wallace on multiple translations of Tibetan Buddhist texts and co-authored Living Resurrected Lives with her mother, Veronica Mary Rolf. She has spent more than four years in a solitary meditation retreat.

"One has to have extremely powerful reasons to uphold one's faith in this world, where it's not the norm." — Eva Natanya (00:00)

"I don't think... I doubt that you feel like you're Christian today and Buddhist the next. This is a very integrated idea." — Dave Plisky (00:21:00)

"Can you hold it as precious at the same time as seeing it as empty?" — Eva Natanya, on doctrine and Madhyamaka philosophy (00:47:00)

Fedde de Vries, a professor of Chinese Buddhism, joins hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich to talk about merit-making, ritual, and why "playfulness" might be the secret to taking a tradition seriously. Fedde traces his path from an eight-year-old lighting a candle in a Protestant church to a PhD in Buddhist scholasticism, and opens up about why silent meditation didn't help during his darkest moments, and what did. Along the way: jazz as a metaphor for scriptural commentary, the surprising overlap between Catholic and Buddhist views on marriage, and what it really means to listen without an agenda.

Fedde M. de Vries is an assistant professor at Dharma Realm Buddhist University, located on the campus of the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas in Northern California. His spiritual journey began in his early teens and led him into a lifelong connection with that monastic community, alongside study with other Buddhist teachers in both the West and Asia. Fedde holds a BA in Religious Studies from Leiden University (2012), an MA in Asian Studies from UC Berkeley (2015), and a PhD in Buddhist Studies, also from UC Berkeley (2024). His research focuses on Chinese Buddhist scholasticism during the Sui and Tang dynasties. He joined the DRBU faculty in 2024, teaching courses that introduce students to Buddhist meditative practice.

"If I beat myself up over being imperfect, then I'm misunderstanding something about the nature of the universe and about the nature of myself as a... flawed human being." — Fedde de Vries

What happens when a former tech and finance professional trades spreadsheets for robes and then brings Zen back into the boardroom? In this rich, wide-ranging conversation, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich sit down with Sozan Michael McCord, President of San Francisco Zen Center, to explore what it means to live a 24/7 spiritual practice in the middle of Silicon Valley's relentless hustle culture. From a crisis of faith in a conservative Christian church, to a fortune teller at a Microsoft company party, to leading a 3,000-member Tuesday night Zen gathering for tech workers in their 20s and 30s, Michael's story is anything but conventional. And his insights on AI, consciousness, and what makes us irreducibly human might be the most important thing you hear this week. 

Sozan Michael McCord is the President of San Francisco Zen Center, where he has been a resident practitioner since 2009. Over the years he has held leadership roles including Director of City Center (Beginner's Mind Temple) and Chief Financial Officer. Earlier in his practice he served as Eno (head of the meditation hall) and Tenzo (head cook) at Tassajara Zen Mountain Center, the first Zen training monastery outside of Asia, founded in 1969. Michael was ordained as a Zen priest by Ryushin Paul Haller in 2014. Before Zen, he worked in technology and finance, and holds a BA in Theology from Ambassador University. He also volunteered in Amman, Jordan, providing vocational training for individuals with developmental disabilities.

Reach Michael: [email protected]

"If I saw the answers to all of my problems, they'd probably all be solved. Therefore, the way that I need to live is to hold open the door to things that I might not think are true — because that means the answers probably are something that seem a little weird, or a little strange, or just a little wrong." — Michael McCord

What if the path to awakening was simpler than you think and closer than you imagine? In this episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich sit down with Sensei Amy Kisei, a Zen Buddhist priest and teacher with 12 years of full-time monastic training. Amy unpacks the core of Zen practice, the radical simplicity of sitting, and explores how stillness, suffering, compassion, and community weave together into a life of genuine awakening. Whether you're a long-time meditator, spiritually curious, or wondering what Buddhism and Christianity really have in common, this conversation will leave you quieter inside.

"Meditation is like an acupuncture needle — it allows the unhealed parts of us to come up and be included, be felt, and integrated." — Amy Kisei Sensei, on her teacher's analogy for sitting practice

What does it mean to commit your entire life to the pursuit of awakening and then step back out into the world? In this episode, hosts Dave Plisky and Fr. John Gribowich sit down with Kaira Jewel Lingo, a senior Dharma teacher in the Plum Village Zen lineage, who spent 15 years as an ordained nun under the direct guidance of the legendary Thich Nhat Hanh. Kaira Jewel takes us inside the day-to-day reality of monastic life in southern France, shares intimate stories of Thich Nhat Hanh’s remarkable presence and rare humility, and explores how Buddhist practices like mindful walking, loving speech, and “beginning anew” can benefit anyone regardless of faith tradition. Whether you’re a curious Catholic, a longtime meditator, or simply someone seeking more meaning, this conversation offers a warm and accessible window into the intersection of Buddhism, Christianity, social justice, and everyday life.

Growing Up in Intentional Community

Kaira Jewel was born into Order Ecumenical, a 300-person intentional Christian community living communally in an eight-story building on Chicago’s north side. With daily morning offices, pooled income, hand-me-down clothes, and community meals, she describes a childhood structured around service, simplicity, and the conviction that all people are citizens of the earth. The experience shaped a deep hunger for meaning that she carried into adulthood.

Discovering Thich Nhat Hanh and Plum Village

Finishing college at Stanford in 1997, Kaira Jewel set off to find a teacher and a community with no specific religion in mind. After time in India, she attended Plum Village’s summer retreat in southern France. The moment she saw Thich Nhat Hanh, she knew. She canceled the rest of her trip and stayed. Two years later, she took her vows as a nun and remained for 15 years.

Inside the Heart of Plum Village

Fr. John asks what made Thich Nhat Hanh “the real deal.” Kaira Jewel shares how she never saw him rush, how his presence could dissolve stress with a touch on the shoulder, and how he constantly pushed students out of their comfort zones to stay awake and responsive. She also recounts the remarkable moment he bowed before hundreds of monastic students and apologized publicly acknowledging concerns they had raised in private letters.

Zen and Vipassana: Two Routes, Same Destination

Dave asks how Kaira Jewel holds two distinct Buddhist traditions. She explains that Vipassana emphasizes deep, silent inward retreat, slowing down so much you notice your intention before turning a doorknob, while Plum Village weaves mindfulness into communal life: loving speech, deep listening, gathas (short poems) posted everywhere to bring awareness to brushing your teeth or taking out the trash. She finds them deeply complementary, each opening different angles of the same path.

What Buddhism Offers Christians (and Vice Versa)

Thich Nhat Hanh had a picture of Jesus and Buddha hugging on his altar and bowed to it daily. He spent an entire three-month retreat teaching the Rule of St. Benedict. Kaira Jewel reflects on his concept of “dual belonging”  that a tree without roots cannot survive and his challenge to every tradition: lift up the gems, and honestly name and heal the shadows.

Practical Tools for Everyday Life

Kaira Jewel shares two practices she has brought into her marriage with Episcopal priest Adam: walking meditation (which he has combined with the Jesus Prayer,  “Jesus” on the inhale, “I trust you” on the exhale) and “beginning anew,” a structured weekly practice of appreciation, regret, and honest sharing that clears pebbles from a relationship before they become boulders.

Kaira Jewel Lingo is a senior Dharma teacher in the Plum Village Zen lineage, a Vipassana teacher, and a member of the Plum Village North American Dharma Teachers Council of Elders. After living as an ordained nun for 15 years in Thich Nhat Hanh’s monastic community, she now teaches internationally in the Zen and Vipassana traditions and in secular mindfulness contexts. Her work centers on the intersection of racial, climate, and social justice, with particular care for Black, Indigenous, and people of color communities. Based in New York, she is the author of

What happens when a Catholic scholar spends decades living inside the world's great religious traditions, not just studying them from a distance, but praying, meditating, and forming deep relationships across faith lines? Professor Bradley Malkovsky of the University of Notre Dame has done exactly that, and what he found might surprise you. In this episode, Brad takes us from a Benedictine monastery in New Mexico to a 10-day silent Vipassana retreat in India, from the holy peaks of Mount Athos to a miraculous stone-lifting ceremony at a Muslim saint's shrine in Maharashtra. Along the way, he challenges Catholics to take seriously what Vatican II's Nostra Aetate actually says and what most Catholics have never been told.

Bradley Malkovsky is a professor of theology at the University of Notre Dame and an internationally respected scholar of comparative theology and interreligious dialogue. He has taught at Notre Dame since 1992, holds advanced degrees from the University of Tübingen, and studied Sanskrit and Hindu thought at the University of Pune in India, where he also lived for five years. He is the author of God's Other Children: Personal Encounters with Faith, Love, and Holiness in Sacred India, winner of the Huston Smith Publishing Prize. He previously served as editor of the Journal of Hindu-Christian Studies.

"When you actually meet somebody — don't just hear about something from a book, but actually encounter the living presence of someone who's holy from another religion — it changes everything." — Bradley Malkovsky

Anju Bhargava, Vedantic teacher, ordained Hindu minister, and former White House faith advisor, joins hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich to demystify Hinduism from the inside out. From the meaning of Brahman and Atman, to the four stages of life, to how karma yoga mirrors the Christian idea of surrendering the fruits of your labor to God, this conversation will leave you seeing both your own faith and the broader human spiritual journey in a new light. 

Anju Bhargava is a retired federal executive, former senior banker, Vedantic teacher, and ordained Hindu minister and chaplain with over four decades of experience bridging public service, interfaith leadership, and Hindu philosophy. She served as the first chief risk officer at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services and as a senior vice president at Bank of America. She was the only Hindu American appointed to President Obama's Inaugural Advisory Council on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships, where she founded Hindu American Seva Communities to advance community service and social justice. She is a trained yoga teacher, Vipassana practitioner, and founding member of the first South Asian women's organization in North America.

"Sanatana Dharma was never tied to any ism. Its goal was always: find God within yourself."

"Yoga means the union of the soul with the higher self. What we see in the West as Hatha yoga is only the physical aspect — training the body so you can sit and meditate."

"As you practice meditation more, the frequency of getting pulled off balance becomes less, the intensity reduces, and you recover faster. That is the only real measure of your progress."

"You make all the effort — but the fruits of your labor are left to the hands of the divine. That is karma yoga."

In addition to the ancient texts, Anju's teachers have been Swami Parmarthananda who provides clear contemporary explanations. Some of his lectures are available at https://www.yogamalika.org/. He is a disciple (student) of both Swami Chinmayanand (https://www.chinmayamission.com/global/swami-chinmayananda ) and Swami Dayananda Saraswati (https://arshavidya.org/), also a reformer. 

What happens when a Catholic scholar spends decades immersed in the world of Islam, not to convert, but to truly listen? Gabriel Said Reynolds, one of the leading Quran scholars in the world and a professor at Notre Dame, joins hosts Dave Plisky and Father John Gribowich for a conversation that will challenge assumptions you didn't even know you had.

From growing up in suburban Connecticut with a vague sense of religion to studying Arabic at Columbia, meeting evangelicals, traveling to Jordan, and ultimately being appointed by Pope Francis to the Vatican's Dicastery for Interreligious Dialogue, Reynolds' journey is anything but ordinary. What he's learned from Islam may just make you a better Christian.

"We created the human and we know what his own soul whispers to him, and we are closer to him than his jugular vein." — Quran, Chapter 50 (as discussed by Reynolds)

Reynolds' Unexpected Journey into Islamic Studies

Reynolds didn't set out to become one of the world's foremost Quran scholars. He came from a casually religious suburban household, learned Arabic partly out of family heritage (his middle name is Said, after an Arab American grandfather), and stumbled into transformative encounters, first with enthusiastic evangelical Protestants at Columbia, then with Muslims during a summer in Jordan. Those experiences sparked a lifelong fascination with how Islam, uniquely among world religions, makes its own claims about Jesus.

What Islam Reveals About American Catholicism

One of Reynolds' most provocative observations: spending time in Muslim-majority cultures forced him to notice how much American Catholicism has been quietly shaped by Protestant and secular assumptions. From dating culture to the de-emphasis of saints and sacraments, Reynolds argues that Islamic difference serves as a kind of mirror, one that reveals how much Western Christians take for granted.

The Quran Is Not the Islamic Bible

The Bible is not a "Christian Quran," and the Quran is not an "Islamic Bible." Reynolds walks through the fundamental differences in purpose, in content, in the doctrine behind each text. The Quran was designed to be recited in prayer (closer to a psalter in function), rhymes in Arabic, and is understood by Muslims to be the literal word of God, not a human account of divine events.

Orthodoxy vs. Orthopraxy in Islam

While Western Christianity has emphasized right belief, Islam developed a rich tradition of orthopraxy, right practice. Reynolds explains how Islamic legal traditions (including what is often called Sharia) govern the smallest details of life, from how to wash before prayer to whether a man may shake a female colleague's hand. He draws lessons for Catholics about discipline, obligation, and what it means to take religious practice seriously.

"The Goal Is to Disagree Well"

Reynolds reframes interreligious dialogue: the goal isn't to find a lowest-common-denominator spirituality or to paper over real differences. It's to listen deeply, understand the coherence and beauty of another tradition, and still hold your own convictions. Islam's understanding of Jesus, as a prophet who simply paves the way for Muhammad, is dramatically different from Christianity's. And Reynolds thinks sitting with that difference, rather than dissolving it, is what genuine dialogue looks like.

Mysticism, Sufism, and Surprising Common Ground

Father John asks about mysticism, and Reynolds explores the Sufi tradition, the organized mystical path in Islam known as the tariqa. He also makes a more everyday point: for many Muslims, the five daily prayers are not going through the motions. The full prostration, the ritual washing, the surrender before God, there is a mystical dimension to ordinary Muslim prayer that has something to teach Catholics about the daily practice of faith.

How to Listen Without Agenda

Reynolds closes with a reflection on what makes real listening possible: friendship, or at minimum a disposition toward friendship. Citing Aquinas, "to love is to will the good of the other", he argues that deep listening requires us to set aside the instinct to prepare our rebuttal and instead seek to understand what motivates hundreds of millions of people in their daily religious lives.

Gabriel Said Reynolds is the Crowley Professor of Islamic Studies and Theology at the University of Notre Dame. A leading scholar of the Quran, his work focuses on reading the text within the religious world that produced it, one shaped by the Bible, late antiquity theology, and a shared search for God.

He earned his PhD from Yale University in 2003 and has published widely on the relationship between the Quran and earlier scriptures, including:

Reynolds also serves as the general editor of the Yale Dictionary of the Quran and brings his scholarship to a broader audience through his YouTube channel, Exploring the Quran and the Bible. He has lectured internationally from Cairo to Oxford to New York City and was appointed by Pope Francis to serve on the Vatican's Dicastery for Interreligious Dialogue.

"Islam, simply by being different, led me to reconsider things that American Christians often take for granted." — Gabriel Said Reynolds [10:58]

"The goal of interreligious dialogue, for me, is to disagree well." — Gabriel Said Reynolds [38:45]

"The Quran is not an Islamic Bible. The Bible is not a Christian Quran." — Gabriel Said Reynolds [26:30]

"For many Muslims, religion isn't something that happens an hour a week. It's woven into every moment of life." — Gabriel Said Reynolds [54:00]

What if God is closer to you than the ocean is to the fish? Sufi scholar and Duke University professor Omid Safi joins Religion to Reality for one of the most luminous conversations in the podcast’s history. Omid walks us through the heart of Islamic mysticism, not as doctrine, but as a living, breathing practice of radical love. From his childhood in Iran to the halls of Duke, from Rumi's prayer to the crisis of violence in the Middle East, this episode is an invitation to stop compartmentalizing your faith and start living it in every breath.

Note: Toward the end of this episode, Omid speaks candidly about violence in the Middle East, including recent events in Gaza and Iran. Sensitive listeners may wish to be aware.

The heart of Islamic mysticism through the eyes of Sufi scholar Omid Safi, from the daily practice of dhikr (the remembrance of God) to Rumi's vision of prayer as a way of being, the unity beneath all world religions, and what it truly means to listen without agenda. Omid also speaks with unflinching honesty about violence, scripture, and the question every believer must ask: what would the prophets actually sanction today?

Omid Safi is a professor of Islamic Studies at Duke University, specializing in Islamic spirituality and contemporary thought. Born in Florida and raised in Iran, Omid bridges two worlds as a teacher, author, and spiritual guide in the Sufi tradition of radical love. He is the founder of Illuminated Courses and Tours, which has brought more than 2,500 people from over 20 countries on spiritual journeys to Turkey and Morocco since 2002. His most recent book, Radical Love: Teachings from the Islamic Mystical Tradition, draws on the foundational texts of Sufism to offer a path of love-drenched, justice-inclined spirituality for the modern world. He has been mentored by luminaries, including the late Vincent Harding, a close friend of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

"I prayed so often that my whole being has become a prayer. Now, whenever somebody sees my face, they start to pray." — Rumi, as quoted by Omid Safi [00:18:50]