Rosenfeld Review Podcast

What if researchers could learn as much from what people do with their hands as from what they say? Lou talks with Dane DeSutter and Stephanie Scopelitis, authors of the forthcoming Body Talk: Using Gestures to Rethink Human-Centered Products, about the overlooked role gestures play in research, communication, and design.

Drawing on backgrounds spanning learning science, dance, music, and product research, Dane and Stephanie explain how gestures can reveal mental models, clarify ideas that are difficult to put into words, and give researchers new opportunities to dig deeper. Rather than relying on intuition alone, they argue that researchers can learn to observe gestures systematically—and use their own gestures intentionally to support richer interactions.

Through examples involving everything from justice to data integration, they show how paying closer attention to the body can uncover insights that words alone might miss—and ultimately help designers create products that make more sense to the people using them.

0:11 - Meet Dane DeSutter and Stephanie Scopelitis and get an overview of their book, Body Talk

3:25 - Gestures in the UX world

6:53 - The ah-ha moment that made Dane take a closer look at gestures

9:15 - The influence of dance on Stephanie’s work

11:33 - Sign language vs gestures

13:19 - Gestures in the podcast studio

15:11 - We are all students of body language

19:03 - 15% off on Rosenfeld Media book preorders

20:26 - An example from teaching 

24:49 - An example from product design and development 

26:54 - Using gestures to reveal mental models and deepen understanding 

30:42 - Offering and interpreting gestures

33:39 - Dane & Stephanie’s gifts for listeners

37:10 - Why you should try the Rosenverse

Body Talk: Using Gestures to Rethink Human-Centered Products by Dane DeSutter and Stephanie Scopelitis https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/body-talk/

The Supplement to the Italian Dictionary by Bruno Munari

Solitary Confinement: Social Death and Its Afterlives by Lisa Guenther https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5749/j.ctt4cggj8

The Inside-Out Center https://insideoutcenter.org/

The Rosenverse https://rosenverse.rosenfeldmedia.com/

“A big part of how [engineers] interact with one another is in gesture.” —Dane 

“The body [is] a bridge. It’s a bridge between the person and the experience, a bridge between the past and the future.” — Dane 

“We use our bodies to communicate, to think through things, to shape our interactions all the time.” — Stephanie 

“This is a way to see into the mind.” — Dane 

“If you can understand how people think, you can design for them, you can create products that make sense to them.” — Dane 

“Looking at gestures as a window into the mind… that’s where the richness comes from.” — Stephanie 

As organizations race to automate with AI, the most important question may not be what machines can do, but what they should do. Lou talks with cognitive neuroscientist and UX researcher Stef Hutka, author of the forthcoming Rosenfeld Media book What Your Machines Should Do: The Science and Strategy of Human-Centered Automation, about how teams can make more thoughtful decisions about automation.

Stef introduces the Autonomy Decision Matrix, a framework that asks teams to evaluate automation along two dimensions: Could you automate it? and Should you automate it? Using examples from augmented reality and AI-powered customer service, she explains why technical feasibility alone isn’t enough — and how shared frameworks can help leaders and practitioners make better decisions together.

The conversation ultimately makes the case for “humanist automation”: using technology to extend human capabilities rather than simply replace people. Stef will continue exploring that idea as a curator of the human-centered tooling track at Rosenfeld Media’s upcoming Shift UX 2026, where she and the speakers will examine how our tools are reshaping not only products, but organizations, communities, and society.

0:18 - Meet Stef

3:30 - Augmented reality – should we?

5:23 - The reality of the cost of augmented reality suits

7:17 - Augmenting human capability or replacing it?

8:47 - A basic framework, the Autonomy Decision Matrix, for a thoughtful, less risky approach

12:16 - Early conversations in the automation space are important

14:29 - Bloomberg LP

15:46 - Fleshing out the Autonomy Decision Matrix - a case study with Klarna

20:50 - The people who should be having these ADM conversations

22:48 - Humanist automation

24:57 - Steph’s role in Shift UX 2026

29:20 - Stef’s gift for listeners

Bloomberg LP’s open positions https://www.bloomberg.com/company/what-we-do/ux/

Shift UX 2026 https://shiftux.rosenfeldmedia.com/

What Your Machines Should Do: The Science and Strategy of Human-Centered Automation by Stefanie Hutka https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/what-your-machines-should-do/

“There's a lot of ‘We can do it,’ but should we? And this ‘should we?’ is not always the strongest justification.”

“What are you doing automation in service of?”

“Humans are doing the steering. It's not AI steering, and we're in the backseat.”

“Who decides what is that preferred state, and what is our role as UX practitioners?” 

What if uncertainty isn’t something UX professionals need to survive — but an opportunity to reshape what comes next? Catt Small and Lou explore how designers can reclaim agency at a moment when familiar roles, tools, and assumptions about the industry are shifting. Drawing on her own evolution from web designer to staff designer, Catt argues that career paths aren’t fixed: designers can identify where they bring the most value and help shape roles around their strengths.

Catt and Lou discuss why today’s upheaval isn’t entirely new, how experimentation can help designers navigate ambiguity, and why the optimism that once surrounded technology has become more complicated. They also explore design’s role within the realities of business—and why making things better sometimes means slowing down, adding friction, asking harder questions, and helping organizations make more thoughtful decisions.

Catt, who will open the inaugural Shift UX conference, ultimately offers a hopeful message: even in uncertain times, designers have agency—and uncertainty can be an ideal time to make meaningful moves.

0:10 – Meet Cat Small (and her kittens), and learn about Cat and Lou’s ground rules for their conversation

3:27 - The career ladder is made up, so we should feel free to change it

7:26 - Embracing constant evolution rather than resisting change

10:20 - Advice for embracing change: know yourself

13:26 - Lessons gleaned from others

16:39 - A sale on book pre-orders

17:38 - UX returns to experimentation 

21:28 - Tech’s optimism vs harder questions about progress and impact 

24:47 - Designing for people while navigating the realities of business 

26:57 - Shifting from removing friction to facilitating better decisions 

29:32 - Finding agency and making meaningful moves 

31:02 - About Shift UX 2026

32:08 - Kat’s gift for the audience

Imani House https://www.imanihouse.org/

Judd Legum’s Popular Info https://popular.info/about

Shift UX 2026 https://shiftux.rosenfeldmedia.com/

NTS Radio https://www.nts.live/radio

“We don’t have to be told what kind of job we should have.” 

“It’s a sign of leadership when you know yourself and how to best bring value to the team.” 

“Times of uncertainty are a great time to make moves.” 

As UX roles and titles continue to shift, the ability to make sense of complexity may matter more than ever. Lou talks with information architect, author, and longtime collaborator Abby Covert about how her work evolved from information architecture into the broader practice of sensemaking—and why she believes that work extends far beyond people with “IA” in their job titles.

Abby also offers a preview of Shift UX, Rosenfeld Media’s hybrid conference on September 24–25, where she is one of the main curators. She explains how the event itself is being redesigned to move away from “design theater”: speakers will share the stage, dedicated sensemakers will connect ideas across talks, and the audience will become part of the conversation.

The conversation explores Abby’s Sensemakers Club, the importance of creating genuine community, and her new book, Timeless Sensemaking for Modern Sensemakers. Throughout, Abby makes the case that sensemaking isn’t simply about organizing information—it’s also about understanding people, adapting how we communicate, and helping others turn complexity into something they can actually use.

0:16 - Meet Abby

2:29 - Sense-making as part of information architecture; placemaking vs sensemaking

5:31 - More on the term sensemaking

9:46 - More on placemaking; moving away from performance and toward disclosure; experience design

16:09 - 15% off on two books: What Your Machine Should Do by Stephanie Hutko and Body Talk by Dane Sutter and Stephanie Scopolitis

17:17 - Sensemaking is personal

19:11 - What sensemaking will look like at the Shift UX conference

21:22 - Sensemakers Club and Abby’s book

26:27 - More on Abby’s book

30:34 - Abby’s gift for listeners

31:33 - Check out the Rosenverse

How to Make Sense of Any Mess by Abby Covert https://abbycovert.com/make-sense/

Shift UX - September 24-25, 2026 https://shiftux.rosenfeldmedia.com/

Timeless Sensemaking for Modern Sensemakers by Abby Covert https://abbycovert.com/sensemaking/

Extra Bold, Feminist, Inclusive, Anti-Racist, Non-Binary Field Guide for Graphic Designers by Ellen Lupton, Farah Kafei, Jennifer Tobias, Josh A. Halstead, Kaleena Sales, Leslie Xia, Valentina Vergara https://papress.com/products/extra-bold

“I've come to understand sensemaking as a part of information architecture.”

“Information is sketchy when you look at it as a material that we wield.” 

“The stage is becoming sort of like this central gathering space, more like a meeting house and less like a theater production.”

“Sensemaking is an incredibly personal process.”

Product management is changing fast — and according to Julia Barham, many PMs are being pushed to the “left,” beyond delivery work into deeper discovery, customer insight, and strategic thinking. Julia joins Lou to discuss her forthcoming book, The Product Management Playbook: Create, Ship, and Optimize Winning Products, and why modern product managers need broader, end-to-end skills to thrive.

Julia explains how AI and automation are reducing the amount of manual coordination and backlog management product managers traditionally handled — creating both anxiety and opportunity. As delivery work becomes easier, PMs are increasingly expected to spend more time understanding customers, validating ideas, collaborating across disciplines, and driving outcomes instead of simply shipping features. She also argues that great product managers succeed not because they know everything, but because they cultivate curiosity, build strong partnerships, and continuously learn across business, design, data, technology, and customer domains.

The conversation also explores why many product managers feel disempowered inside organizations, the growing overlap between product and UX research, and how self-education, mentorship, and optimism can help professionals adapt during an uncertain AI-driven transition.

0:18 – Meet Julia and learn why she wrote her new book

2:43 - Product managers shifting into customer rese–arch roles

5:29 - The dynamics of research shifting into the product space

8:44 - Other major messages of Julia’s book

11:55 - The common thread: curiosity

13:24 - Designing with AI virtual conference

14:10 - The insecurity of having breadth of knowledge but not depth

17:09 - The importance of self-education

19:02 - The ubiquitous attitude of “nobody listens to me or respects my position” and what to do about it

23:46 - Julia’s gift for listeners

The Product Management Playbook: Create, Ship, and Optimize Winning Products by Julia Barham https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/product-management-playbook/ 

Dr. Marily Nika’s courses on Maven https://maven.com/marily-nika  

Dr. Marily Nika on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marilynika 

Hilary Gridley’s Couch-to-5K for AI https://couchto5k.ai/ 

“Successful product managers usually operate across five different domains.” 

“It’s not a book on theory; it’s a book on doing.”

“You need to be a really good partner if you want to be a great product manager.”

“The point is harnessing multiple superpowers to get that integrated thinking and develop a solution that’s going to work across what customers need, businesses need, and then can be scalable and sustainable.”  

“You have to be curious. You have to spend time with your partners, get mentors, and learn to understand how design, data, technology all help you make a better product for customers and for your business.”

AI is opening the door to a new era of design—but most teams are still focused on making their existing work faster rather than reimagining what’s possible. Lou talks with Josh Clark and Veronica Kindred about their new book, Sentient Design, and what it takes to design truly intelligent interfaces.

They introduce the idea of “practical magic”—starting with bold, even impossible wishes and then working backward to create real, deliverable experiences. Rather than defaulting to chatbots and efficiency gains, they argue that AI enables entirely new interaction models, from adaptive interfaces to agents that collaborate directly within products.

The conversation also explores how design systems and past UX practices lay the groundwork for this shift, while designers themselves must unlearn habits that limit creativity. Through their “sentient design sprint” and “minimum magical product” framework, Josh and Veronica offer a structured way to move from imagination to implementation.

At its core, this episode is a call for designers to reclaim their role as inventors—embracing AI not just as a tool, but as a new design material for creating more responsive, dynamic, and human-centered experiences.

0:13 - Meet Josh and Veronika and learn about their new Rosenfeld Media book

3:14 - Harnessing magical thinking with AI

9:19 - Moving beyond process, speed, and efficiency

13:11 - How designers can transition from tooling to inventing

16:53 - Exciting places the magic could take us

23:40 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

25:52 - The Sentient Design Sprint

30:08 - The Sentient Triangle

33:36 - Is this applicable to non-traditional designers? Or what designers need to unlearn?

39:56 - Josh and Veronica’s gifts for listeners

Sentient Design: Crafting Intelligent Interfaces with AI by Josh Clark and Veronika Kindred https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/sentient-design/

Designing with AI 2026 - June 9, 2026 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designing-with-ai/ 

Enchanted Objects: Innovation, Design, and the Future of Technology by David Rose https://www.amazon.com/Enchanted-Objects-Innovation-Design-Technology/dp/1476725640 

This is Running: A Celebration of the World of Running, Exploring the Culture, History, Brands, Races and People Behind It by Raziq Rauf https://www.amazon.com/This-Running-Celebration-Exploring-Culture/dp/1837330425?crid=10LYBYV063BKK&dib 

“We try to get in touch with the moments of emerging technology that help us to let go of the old ways of doing things and embrace the new, to think in terms of magical wishes.”

“A ‘magical moment’ is that machines can understand our intent beyond just what we know to type.” 

“The danger is we’re not endorsing magical thinking.”

“First we retool, then we reorganize to get our process around that. And then we invent.”

AI may be built on language—but according to Paul Ford, we’re still struggling to find the right words to describe what it’s actually doing to our work and thinking. Lou and Paul explore how language shapes our ability to understand—and responsibly use—AI.

Drawing on his dual background in programming and writing, Paul shares a set of evolving “rules” for working with AI: don’t let it replace your thinking, be wary of its tendency to flatter, and build systems that help you verify and structure its output rather than blindly trusting it. He explains how he uses AI to accelerate prototyping and research while still preserving human judgment, creativity, and accountability.

The discussion also zooms out to the broader cultural moment. From skeptical college students to industry hype cycles, Paul argues that people are more discerning than we often assume—and that AI’s impact will play out in diverse, deeply human ways.

Paul will be the opening speaker at the upcoming Designing with AI conference, where he’ll expand on these ideas and introduce new language for navigating this rapidly evolving space.

His takeaway? We’re not at the end of history—we’re in a messy, fascinating transition, and the best we can do is stay curious, thoughtful, and engaged.

0:11 – Meet Paul

5:30 - Can language keep up with technological change?

12:48 – Paul’s rules for professionals

18:11 - Where is the slippery slope? Paul weighs in.

22:23 - Paul reveals his gift for the audience

23:03 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

25:18 - A story about some NY college students

29:21 - The anger and skepticism toward AI

35:18 - Wrapping up

Designing with AI conference - June 9, 2026 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designing-with-ai/ 

Shell Game Podcast, by Evan Ratliff podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/shell-game/id1753117762 

“In a world where product is very easy to spin up, the relationship is getting more and more important.” 

“You can really narrow your risk when you’re working with this stuff, and then you can let it go and see what it comes up with.” 

“There’s ways to mess with this stuff where I think you get to move forward and you get to think your thoughts without letting it take over.” 

“When it gets into that weird social relationship where it’s telling you that was a good idea, that’s where my alarm bells go off.”  

“The native buttering up of these technologies, I think is really dangerous because, God, you always want to hear it, especially when you're a boss.

As AI becomes easier and cheaper to deploy, designers face a new challenge: deciding not just what can be automated, but what should be. Lou Rosenfeld talks with Joy Kendi of Dalberg Design — and an upcoming speaker at the Designing with AI 2026 conference — about introducing AI into high-stakes systems where design decisions can directly affect access to healthcare, services, and critical resources.

Joy shares examples from her work in public health systems, including an AI concept intended to help community health workers prioritize patient visits. What initially seemed like an obvious efficiency gain quickly raised deeper concerns around incomplete data, shifting real-world conditions, and the irreplaceable role of human judgment and community trust. Rather than treating AI as a decision-maker, Joy argues for designing systems where AI supports — but does not override — human expertise.

Their conversation also explores how AI is reshaping the role of designers themselves. Joy makes the case that designers must move “upstream” in the process, helping define boundaries, risks, trust, and governance before automation decisions are made. 

0:11 - Meet Joy and learn about high-stake systems

3:26 - Joy’s backstory

6:10 - Seeing beyond the everyday facade

8:55 - Why you need the Rosenverse

11:08 - Designing responsible AI for high-stakes public health decisions 

16:06 - Why human judgment still matters in AI-assisted decision-making 

18:29 - Designers must shape AI boundaries, not just interfaces 

22:06 - Joy’s gift for listeners

Designing with AI 2026 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/designing-with-ai/ 

“When I say high stakes systems, I mean systems where the design choices carry very real consequences beyond the typical interface or screen that a lot of designers are used to.”

“The hardest question is not just can we build this tool. It’s also deciding whether we should automate some of these complex social decisions at all.”  

“Even when the quality of data is good, and the data is available, there's more complexity to how human beings make decisions. A lot of that is also based on the social dynamics.”

Privacy concerns didn’t appear overnight—they’ve been building quietly alongside the technologies we rely on every day. Lou and Robert Stribley, author of Design for Privacy, explore how digital tracking, AI, and data sharing have reshaped the way personal information moves through the modern web.

Robert traces the growing privacy challenge from early internet tracking to today’s complex ecosystem of smartphones, online services, and AI systems. While many users understand that they’re trading data for convenience, few grasp how widely their information is distributed—or how easily supposedly anonymous data can be re-identified. As AI accelerates the ability to combine and analyze datasets, those risks are growing quickly.

Then the conversation turns to what designers can do about it. Robert outlines practical ways UX professionals can improve privacy outcomes, from collecting less data and avoiding deceptive patterns to improving language transparency and giving users meaningful control over their information. Despite the scale of the problem, Robert argues that designers have more agency and influence than they realize. Thoughtful design decisions can help protect users while also strengthening trust and long-term business success.

0:15 - Meet Robert, Lou’s neighbor

1:51 - How Robert got into the privacy field

5:06 - Perceptions of privacy and the concessions we make

8:01 - Terms of Service - we accept them blindly - and why that can be risky

15:54 - 5 Reasons to use the Rosenverse

18:39 - What designers can do about data privacy

28:08 - Privacy tools and potential tools for users

32:38 - Robert’s gift for listeners

Design for Privacy: Keeping Personal Information Private by Robert Stribley https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/design-for-privacy/

Block Party app https://www.blockpartyapp.com/

404 Media https://www.404media.co/

The Capture https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8201186/

“We have created these patterns that make it very easy to get involved with those experiences, all the while you're surrendering your data.” 

“I don't think most people understand the degree to which that information is spread around and with whom it's spread around.”

“Whenever you are utilizing people’s data, really think about what you’re doing with it and be able to justify it.” 

“When you understand deceptive patterns as manipulative, you can’t stop seeing them everywhere.” 

AI is reshaping product development faster than most organizations can even rethink how they work—and that gap sits at the heart of this conversation with product design guru Jeff Gothelf. Lou and Jeff explore why proven methods like Agile and OKRs so often become “process theater” instead of real change, and what it actually takes to shift organizations from output-driven cultures to outcome-driven ones.

Jeff explains that most transformations fail because incentives still reward shipping outputs, not creating real value. Meaningful change tends to emerge only in pockets led by leaders willing to experiment and treat ways of working as something to test and evolve.

They also explore how AI is shifting risk upstream—from engineering to vision, validation, and decisionmaking—making design and research more critical than ever. Along the way, they reflect on consulting as organizational therapy, the need to prove design’s value in the AI era, and why companies that relentlessly embrace new technology are best positioned to endure.

0:10 - Meet Jeff Gothelf; Lou and Jeff discuss bridging the gap between ritual and cultural change

7:44 - Good ideas without a clear understanding of why

9:42 - What it takes for organizations to successfully communicate and incentivize 

15:21 - 5 reasons to use the Rosenverse

17:37 - Consultants validate insiders; AI shifts risk toward design clarity

24:20 - AI speeds output, but critical thinking, research, and testing prove designers’ value

27:50 - Jeff and Lou speculate on Amazon’s future

30:49 - Jeff’s gift for listeners

Books by Jeff Gothelf https://jeffgothelf.com/books/ 

Ignorance by Milan Kundura https://www.amazon.com/Ignorance-Novel-Milan-Kundera/dp/0060002107 

“The types of conversations that we're having about good design, about good information architecture, about good research, about agility and customer centricity and all of those types of things, for some reason, those continue to be difficult conversations in organizations today.”

“The risk of engineering is no longer a risk, not like it was not five years ago. It's going to get cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. Where's the risk? The risk is in definition, vision, clarity, validation. In other words, it's in design, discovery, research, product management.”

“The differentiation, the uniqueness, the creativity, the innovation is going to come from the critical thinking of the designers and the researchers who are actually doing the thinking before the prompt.”