Have you ever watched in amazement as a visually impaired person nimbly maneuvers their way through a crowded subway station? Well, some thoughtful innovations are being developed to enable people with low vision to navigate the world with greater ease. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to the founder and CEO of Waymap, Tom Pey, about his start-up company’s breakthrough navigation technology. We discuss his company's product, look at some of the challenges that people with disabilities face, and touch upon the promise of autonomous vehicles for those without sight.

00:01 Narrator - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

00:22 Tom Pey - So what this does is this hands back, and that's why the phone itself becomes the instrument that is the accurate navigation device, because in your phone you now have the freedom to explore.

00:37 Narrator - Have you ever watched in amazement as a visually impaired person nimbly maneuvers their way through a crowded subway station? Well, some thoughtful innovations are being developed to enable people with low vision to navigate the world with greater ease. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to the founder and CEO of Waymap, Tom Pey, about his start-up company’s breakthrough navigation technology. We discuss his company's product, look at some of the challenges that people with disabilities face, and touch upon the promise of autonomous vehicles for those without sight.

01:33 Alex Wise - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Tom Pey. He is the CEO. Of Waymap. Tom, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

01:41 Tom Pey - Thank you for having me.

01:43 Alex Wise - So why don't you tell us a little bit about the journey that you and your colleagues have had with Waymap, what the mission of the organization is and what problems you're trying to solve with it?

01:55 Tom Pey - Basically we started out trying to solve a very simple problem and that was the seven blind young people in London. Said the most important thing to them to help them to change their lives for the better was to be able to get around London Underground like everyone else, and the reason for that was that they were young. They, uh, a couple of them had just been out on a date with a with a boyfriend or girlfriend and they had been taken around by these adults, strangers, sighted guides to help them to navigate the underground and it wasn't very cool, so they thought, hey, you know, an app could stop, they could solve this for us. I had done some research on it previously, so I put my hand up and said look I'd solved that problem for you. You know, we applied to google.org and we got $1,000,000 grant and they told us to go out and change the world for blind people. And we carried out trials across the world with literally thousands of blind people asking them how we could solve their mobility problems. How could we help them to get around better, and as a result we wrote the world for standard for audio-based navigation for people who are blind or low vision that's currently an American standard as well. And we've also written standard for pig with intellectual and developmental disabilities. And from that we developed our app through Waymap and we're currently rolling it out in Washington DC.

03:30 Alex Wise - And so will it be a layer ultimately on Google Maps? Like, I'm thinking if I put in walking directions for me from point A to point B, how might it be different with the Waymap layer, let's say?

03:45 Tom Pey - The difference is that first of all, it would be more accurate than Google Maps because it doesn't rely solely on GPS. In fact, it doesn't rely on signals at all if they're not there. The second thing is that it works outdoors and indoors,

Florida sort of defines the term "swing state." The smallest of variables can push the outcome of Florida's elections in one direction or another - in the year 2000 it was "hanging chads" and more recently it appeared it would be the re-enfranchisement of former felons. In 2018, Florida voters overwhelmingly passed Amendment 4, which restored the voting rights of most felons who had completed their sentences. This was a particularly important turn of events given the massive number of Floridians who could not vote due to felony convictions. Republican leadership in the state, however, has been working tirelessly to undermine the will of the people by making it harder for the formerly incarcerated to exercise their franchise. Some of the obstacles that have been erected include a requirement to clear all debts in order to vote - some former felons have actually been criminally prosecuted for voting without paying what in effect amounts to a poll tax. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to journalist Bianca Fortis who has written an investigative piece chronicling right wing efforts to keep Florida’s most vulnerable populations from participating in the democratic process. Then we dip into the archives to listen to our 2020 discussion with groundbreaking health physicist and nuclear expert, Hattie Carwell.

00:01 Narrator - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

00:10 Bianca Fortis - The State of Florida accounts for more than 1/4 of the entire disenfranchised population in the United States.

00:29 Narrator - Florida sort of defines the term "swing state." The smallest of variables can push the outcome of Florida's elections in one direction or another - in the year 2000 it was "hanging chads" and more recently it appeared it would be the re-enfranchisement of former felons. In 2018, Florida voters overwhelmingly passed Amendment 4, which restored the voting rights of most felons who had completed their sentences. This was a particularly important turn of events given the massive number of Floridians who could not vote due to felony convictions. Republican leadership in the state, however, has been working tirelessly to undermine the will of the people by making it harder for the formerly incarcerated to exercise their franchise. Some of the obstacles that have been erected include a requirement to clear all debts in order to vote - some former felons have actually been criminally prosecuted for voting without paying what in effect amounts to a poll tax. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to journalist Bianca Fortis who has written an investigative piece chronicling right wing efforts to keep Florida’s most vulnerable populations from participating in the democratic process. Then we dip into the archives to listen to our 2020 discussion with groundbreaking health physicist and nuclear expert, Hattie Carwell.

1:56 Alex Wise (AW) - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Bianca Fortis. Bianca is a journalist and a reporting fellow at Pro Publica. Bianca, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

2:06 Bianca Fortis (BF) - Thank you for having me.

2:08 AW - So I wanted to discuss a piece that you wrote for Pro Publica July 21st, entitled “A Government official helped them register. Now they've been charged with voter fraud,” and it's about the Florida voting story that's kind of been in the news for five years now running, it's taken an ugly turn, and I wanted to highlight it here on Sea Change Radio. Before we dive into what's currently happening right now, why don't you give us a little bit of back story on the history of this topic of felon voting, not just in Florida, but nationally?

2:46 BF - So across the United States,

What comes to mind when you hear the words "crime" and "safety?" For many, these words evoke images of poor people stealing things, or police enforcing laws to suppress street crime. Our guest today on Sea Change Radio argues that there's a whole set of crimes that have been intentionally omitted from the messaging we get and that, for many, "police" and "safety" are far from synonymous. This week we speak with Alec Karakatsanis, the founder and executive director of Civil Rights Corps. A former public defender and the author of “Usual Cruelty: The Complicity of Lawyers in the Criminal Injustice System,” Karakatsanis believes that much of our country’s perspective on crime and policing has been shaped by "copaganda," the swaying of public opinion for the benefit of law enforcement. We look at the corrosive societal effects of historic and current police practices, examine how and why these wrongheaded approaches persist, and discuss the complicity of journalists and policymakers who fall for and then perpetuate the American mythology of crime and safety.

00:01 Narrator - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

00:20 Alec Karakatsanis (AK) - If you everyday on the news see a story of someone shoplifting from a pharmacy but you never hear a story about that pharmacy stealing from its own workers, then you're going to think that the shoplifting is a more of a problem than wage theft. Even though the exactly the opposite is true. And there are different kinds of problems, right? And there are different kinds of solutions.

00:00:44 Narrator - What comes to mind when you hear the words "crime" and "safety?" For many, these words evoke images of poor people stealing things, or police enforcing laws to suppress street crime. Our guest today on Sea Change Radio argues that there's a whole set of crimes that have been intentionally omitted from the messaging we get and that, for many, "police" and "safety" are far from synonymous. This week we speak with Alec Karakatsanis, the founder and executive director of Civil Rights Corps. A former public defender and the author of “Usual Cruelty: The Complicity of Lawyers in the Criminal Injustice System,” Karakatsanis believes that much of our country’s perspective on crime and policing has been shaped by "copaganda," the swaying of public opinion for the benefit of law enforcement. We look at the corrosive societal effects of historic and current police practices, examine how and why these wrongheaded approaches persist, and discuss the complicity of journalists and policymakers who fall for and then perpetuate the American mythology of crime and safety.

02:05 Alex Wise (AW) - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Alec Karakatsanis. He is the founder and executive director of Civil Rights Corps. Alec, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

02:14 Alec Karakatsanis (AK)  - Thank you for having me.

02:16 AW So you have a newsletter entitled Copaganda, Alec’s Copaganda Newsletter. Why don't you define copaganda for us?

02:24 AK - I think there are a lot of ways to understand what copaganda is, so I don't purport to have the definitive understanding of the term, but essentially what it reflects is the way in which a very special kind of propaganda is weaponized by powerful interests in government, in the corporate world and the media. To change the way we think about public safety, change that we think about the criminal punishment bureaucracy and the way we think about police, prosecutors, judges, courts, jails, prisons,

Are you weary of having to care about where headline-seeking Senators Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema land on important topics? Well, according to this week's guest on Sea Change Radio, relief may be in sight. This week we speak with grassroots organizer and Democratic insider RL Miller to dig deeper into the politics, logistics and the climate impact of the Inflation Reduction Act. The president and founder of Climate Hawks Vote, Miller believes Manchin is starting to see his star fade as he watches more progressive Democratic Senate hopefuls making inroads - she believes this is a key impetus for his and Sinema's connection to this bill, and perhaps a sign of things to come. We also get a harrowing glimpse into Miller's first-hand experience with the California wildfires.

00:01 Narrator - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

00:16 RL Miller - We are 100 days out from a midterm election on N8 and we are in pretty good shape to hold the Senate and adds to the Senate Majority. And if we elect Mandela Barnes and John Fetterman and Cheri Beasley and a couple of other people, Joe Manchin loses his role as kingmaker of the United States Senate.

00:40 Narrator - Are you weary of having to care about where headline-seeking Senators Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema land on important topics? Well, according to this week's guest on Sea Change Radio, relief may be in sight. This week we speak with grassroots organizer and Democratic insider RL Miller to dig deeper into the politics, logistics and the climate impact of the Inflation Reduction Act. The president and founder of Climate Hawks Vote, Miller believes Manchin is starting to see his star fade as he watches more progressive Democratic Senate hopefuls making inroads - she believes this is a key impetus for his and Sinema's connection to this bill, and perhaps a sign of things to come. We also get a harrowing glimpse into Miller's first-hand experience with the California wildfires.

01:39 Alex Wise - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by RL Miller. She is the founder and president of Climate Hawks vote and she is an elected member of the DNC and she served as the Chair Person of the California Democratic Party's Environmental Caucus for eight years. RL, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

02:00 RL Miller - Thanks so much for having me on.

02:02 Alex Wise - Well, it's a pleasure and very timely because follow you on Twitter. You're a very keen observer and we are in the midst of seeing some legislation (fingers crossed) pass this week through the Senate. It was called the Build Back Better bill. That's a mouthful. And now the new mouthful is the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022. But before we dive into that, I want to learn a little bit more about the mission of Climate Hawks Vote and how your organization has tried to tackle the connection between fossil fuels and the political class.

02:42 RL Miller - I founded Climate Hawks vote in 2014 because I was deeply frustrated with Democratic politicians and Republican politicians. Republican politicians being in total denial of course. “Oh no, there's no such thing as climate change.” While Democratic politicians would pay lip service to it. Say that yes, of course it's very important. Oh, we need to do something by 2050. OK, we'll do something somewhere down the road and they would just keep on kicking the can down the road. Meanwhile, immigration demands attention. Right now, healthcare demands attention. Right now, gun violence right now, et cetera, et cetera. And so so many other priorities competing for democratic politicians attention. Nobody was doing anything about climate change now, and so I founded Climate Hawks vote with the idea of getting politicians to pa...

Anyone who paid attention to the ugly aftermath of the 2020 presidential election suddenly realized that a coterie of state-level bureaucrats had a whole lot more power than we ever imagined. And it was a huge wake up call for those who have chosen not to vote in past local elections. Elections matter, even small ones. This week on Sea Change Radio, we welcome political scientist and election expert Daniel Nichanian to discuss the importance of local elections in this country and how his new media venture, Bolts Magazine, intends to shine a brighter light on small, but increasingly vital races in all fifty states. We talk about the upcoming midterms, uncover arcane election laws in certain states and examine what’s on the ballot locally in the wake of the Supreme Court’s reversal of Roe v. Wade.

00:01 Narrator - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

00:20 Daniel Nichanian (DN) - There are actually four states this year,Alex, where the partisan court balance could tip over in these elections, and those states are Michigan, Ohio, Illinois and in North Carolina. So in each of these states in particular, the elections in in November. Are going to have great importance on who runs state courts but also potentially on abortion access.

00:46 Narrator - Anyone who paid attention to the ugly aftermath of the 2020 presidential election suddenly realized that a coterie of state-level bureaucrats had a whole lot more power than we ever imagined. And it was a huge wake up call for those who have chosen not to vote in past local elections. Elections matter, even small ones. This week on Sea Change Radio, we welcome political scientist and election expert Daniel Nichanian to discuss the importance of local elections in this country and how his new media venture, Bolts Magazine, intends to shine a brighter light on small, but increasingly vital races in all fifty states. We talk about the upcoming midterms, uncover arcane election laws in certain states and examine what’s on the ballot locally in the wake of the Supreme Court’s reversal of Roe v. Wade.00:01:49AW

01:52 Alex Wise (AW) - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Daniel Nichanian. He is the founder and editor-in-chief of Bolts Magazine. Daniel, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

02:00 Daniel Nichanian (DN) It's great to join you. Thanks for having me.

02:02 AW - Well, it's a treat for me. I've been following you on Twitter at @Taniel for so many years now and have found your Twitter feed to be a real important resource for election analysis. And you really get into the weeds more than your average analyst on Twitter, so this newest venture of yours, Bolts, why don't you tell us first a little bit about the mission of this?

02:32 DN - Yeah, thank you so much for having me in and I think you already started to capture why Bolts exists. Why, when saying I get in the weeds on Twitter, for many years, I'm sure many people who are who are going to hear this interview have been interested in change. And really, who has the authority and an ability to enact change in in the US, right, and our attention usually goes, often goes to the federal government to Washington DC to Congress, obviously is very important, and the President obviously is very important but on many of the issues that really interest a lot of people, the power and greed, enact change and make a big difference is often at the state level and the county level and the municipal level. And that's where things get a little iffy in terms of people really following or the information infrastructure following and pinpointing not just the right people who are making the decisions, but also really the type of authority they have and the ability they have to ...

This week on Sea Change Radio, we dig into the archives and listen to two very different stories about consumption. First, we speak to global journalist Nithin Coca who has written a series of pieces for Mongabay.com about Indonesia’s alarming headfirst dive into the coal industry. We discuss the high-level corruption that allowed coal to take off in Indonesia, examine the lax regulatory standards that imperil workers while allowing the country to keep export prices low and learn about the environmental degradation that the Indonesian coal boom is causing. Then we revisit our conversation with Lara Gilmore, who along with her husband, chef and restaurateur Massimo Bottura, run the world-renowned Osteria Francescana in Modena, Italy. In addition to running a three-star Michelin restaurant, Bottura and Gilmore have created a unique template for feeding the needy through their nonprofit, Food For Soul. Based on the concept of the Italian refettorio, a place where monks gathered together to share their meals, Food For Soul has elevated the soup kitchen to a whole new level, cooking and serving delicious meals in warm, elegant environments.

00:01 Narrator - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

00:17 Lara Gilmore - I think that the most important thing is we realized that food for soul was not only a platform and a refettorio to be able to give a meal to someone in need, but also a teaching platform for people to understand how to cook better at home and waste less food.

00:36 Narrator - This week on Sea Change Radio, we dig into the archives and listen to two very different stories about consumption. First, we speak to global journalist Nithin Coca who has written a series of pieces for Mongabay.com about Indonesia’s alarming headfirst dive into the coal industry. We discuss the high-level corruption that allowed coal to take off in Indonesia, examine the lax regulatory standards that imperil workers while allowing the country to keep export prices low and learn about the environmental degradation that the Indonesian coal boom is causing. Then we revisit our conversation with Lara Gilmore, who along with her husband, chef and restaurateur Massimo Bottura, run the world-renowned Osteria Francescana in Modena, Italy. In addition to running a three-star Michelin restaurant, Bottura and Gilmore have created a unique template for feeding the needy through their nonprofit, Food For Soul. Based on the concept of the Italian refettorio, a place where monks gathered together to share their meals, Food For Soul has elevated the soup kitchen to a whole new level, cooking and serving delicious meals in warm, elegant environments.

2:09 Alex Wise - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by global journalist Nithin Coca. Nithin, welcome to Sea change Radio.

2:15 Nithin Coca - Oh great, great to be here.

2:16 Alex Wise So you have a few pieces in Mongabay that are quite interesting that I wanted to discuss with you about Indonesia and its coal industry. I was kind of surprised that Indonesia has flung itself with such force into coal, which so many of us think of as just a dying fuel. Why don't you first kind of give us a thumbnail sketch of of how this started? How did Indonesia kind of decide to go to what you call fossil fuels final frontier?

2:46 Nithin Coca - Yeah, I'd be happy to. So I think Indonesia has always been, I guess since independence and even before it got independence from the Dutch in the 1940s and 50s. Like always, a resource export country. And you know previous waves of exports were focused on like timber, spices, palm oil in the 90s, and then I guess around the turn of the century, Indonesia really started ramping up its production of coal. Basically, he went from being like almost a non player in global exports to being last year...

Historian and philosopher Yuval Harari writes, "When the first humans reached Australia about 45,000 years ago, they quickly drove to extinction 90% of its large animals. This was the first significant impact that Homo sapiens had on the planet's ecosystem. It was not the last." This week on Sea Change Radio, we discuss extinction with longtime journalist and founder of the environmental news site, The Revelator, John Platt. We look at efforts around the planet to save endangered plants and animals, explore the plight of smaller, often overlooked creatures, and examine the effects of war on fragile ecosystems.  

00:01 Narrator: This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

00:13 John Platt: And then what happens if you lose a tiger from an ecosystem? Then you lose all the all the functions that it provided. Maybe small herbivores and they're going to go out of control and eat all the vegetation down. We've seen that in this country with when when Wolves died out the the deer took off. So I mean there are some species we may eventually only see in zoos, but I hope we can avoid that.

00:46 Narrator: In and philosopher Yuval Harari writes. “When the first humans reached Australia about 45,000 years ago, they quickly drove to extinction. 90% of its large animals. This was the first significant impact that Homo sapiens had on the planet's ecosystem. It was not the last.” This week on Sea Change Radio we discuss extinction with longtime journalist and founder of the Environmental News site, the Revelator, John Platt. We look at efforts around the planet to save endangered plants and animals, explore the plight of smaller, often overlooked creatures and examine the effects of war on fragile ecosystems.

1:44 Alex Wise: I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by John Platt. John is the editor and founder of the Revelator. John, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

1:53 John Platt: Thank you very much.

1:55 Alex Wise: First, why don't you tell our listeners what the Revelator is - what your organization's mission is, and maybe a little bit on your background in the extinction space.

2:05 John Platt: Yeah, the Revelator is an environmental news and commentary site. We're published by the Center for Biological Diversity, which is a nonprofit devoted to environmental. Choose we're editorially independent from them, but we'd still tell a lot of the same types of subjective stories covering the extinction crisis, climate change, oceans, clean water and environmental justice and we're trying to tell stories that aren't being told in other places and really influence people who are super involved in the environment and care very deeply and passionately about this stuff. I've been an environmental journalist now for over 15 years. I've freelanced for 10 of that and I started writing about endangered species because I thought that was something that wasn't being covered in the general media. I was writing for Scientific American and a bunch of other places, and covered well over 1000 species. I kind of stopped counting once I hit 1000, and I've written more than a few species obituaries over the years, so it's been a big part of my life and it's something that I find infinitely interesting because there's so many interesting species to write about and so many interesting people researching and trying to save these incredible creatures.

3:20 Alex Wise: And you dive into the actual species that aren't necessarily covered by mainstream media, as often you'll see a snippet, maybe at the end of the PBS news hour about some panda made. Or the megafauna gets a lot more press, but we've done some pieces as of late that I thought were really interesting in term...

It seems like these days every sentence that begins with "The Supreme Court..." finishes with truly appalling news -- another draconian ruling regarding privacy, guns, or basic, fundamental human rights. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to energy expert Alex Gilbert about a recent Supreme Court decision that many environmentalists were eyeing with dread. To Gilbert, though, things could have gone much, much worse in the West Virginia v. EPA case. We dive into the details of this ruling: its political ramifications, its practical implications, and what it suggests about this court's future environment-related decisions.

Narrator 00:01 This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Alex Gilbert (AG) 00:11 If I were to have created the scenarios of my expected outcomes in this case, this outcome is actually better than my best-case outcome. When you look at what could have been done here, the fact that they took a case, they probably shouldn't have taken anyways, that was a sign that a lot of people were thinking of very significant changes were coming to environmental law.

Narrator 00:34 It seems like these days every sentence that begins with "The Supreme Court..." finishes with truly appalling news -- another draconian ruling regarding privacy, guns, or basic, fundamental human rights. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to energy expert Alex Gilbert about a recent Supreme Court decision that many environmentalists were eyeing with dread. To Gilbert, though, things could have gone much, much worse in the West Virginia v. EPA case. We dive into the details of this ruling: its political ramifications, its practical implications, and what it suggests about this court's future environment-related decisions.

Alex Wise (AW) 1:33 I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Alex Gilbert. Alex is the Director of Space and Planetary Regulations at Zeno Power. Alex, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

AG 1:43 Thanks so much for having me Alex. I appreciate the opportunity to return.

AW 1:46 Yes, it's been a while since we've had you. You're an expert in the energy field. This new venture of yours that you're engaged in Zeno Power. Why don't you quickly explain what the director of Space and Planetary regulations at Zeno Power does?

AG 2:02 Yeah, so we are developing commercial radioisotope power sources. It's similar to a nuclear battery, is the best way to think about it and it's what NASA historically has used to power some of their deep space missions like the Apollo missions, the Mars Rovers, the Voyager missions, and NASA has their systems, but there's a commercial space sector growing right now, and so we're developing. Commercial space nuclear systems to help enable new applications in space as well as some things on Earth as well - areas that are very remote, hard to power that need just a little bit of power to really do cool things.

AW 2:36 And there hasn't been any Supreme Court rulings that have affected your business lately, but I know that the rest of the country and a lot of the world has been on tenterhooks as these devastating Supreme Court decisions just roll in one by one. The latest was in the environment and I wanted to discuss. That with you, West Virginia versus the EPA. The headlines were that the Supreme Court handcuffed the EPA and the reaction of most people was not because the Supreme Court has been so destructive on so many issues this term in particular. Your take on this ruling was a little more optimistic though. Is that fair to say?

AG 03:21 Yeah, I think there was a lot of concern in the energy and climate policy world about this case. The fact that they took this case in the 1st place, as I'll talk about is really weird.

Years of extreme drought have left the Colorado River at alarmingly low levels. Earlier this month, water management experts testified in front of a Senate energy and Natural Resources Committee that's seeking ways for the Western United States to drastically cut back water usage. With all the recent reporting on the issue, it's important to remember that this sad state of affairs has been a slow-moving disaster visible to all those willing to pay attention. This week on Sea Change Radio, we revisit our 2016 conversation with John Fleck, a water expert focused on the problems of the Colorado River and the author of “Water is For Fighting Over: And Other Myths About Water in the West.” We learn about the struggle over water rights in Arizona, discuss how Mexico and the US are cooperating over the Colorado River Delta and talk about the complexities of growing alfalfa in the desert.

Narrator 00:01 This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise. You had these communities that were along this river that had always been a dry riverbed and they got to see their river come back.

John Fleck 00:29 It was a precedent that was so gratifying to all the people, including the water managers who you think of as the old water buffaloes who just want water for their city in their farm. It was so cool to see that water and it was such a moving experience where everybody was involved.

Narrator 00:45 Years of extreme drought have left the Colorado River at alarmingly low levels. Earlier this month, water management experts testified in front of a Senate energy and Natural Resources Committee that's seeking ways for the Western United States to drastically cut back water usage. With all the recent reporting on the issue, it's important to remember that this sad state of affairs has been a slow-moving disaster visible to all those willing to pay attention. This week on Sea Change Radio, we revisit our 2016 conversation with John Fleck, a water expert focused on the problems of the Colorado River and the author of “Water is For Fighting Over: And Other Myths About Water in the West.” We learn about the struggle over water rights in Arizona, discuss how Mexico and the US are cooperating over the Colorado River Delta and talk about the complexities of growing alfalfa in the desert.

Alex Wise 1:51 I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by John Fleck. He's an author and the director of the Water Resources program at the University of New Mexico. John welcome to Sea Change Radio.

John Fleck 2:01 Thanks so much for having me.

Alex Wise 2:03 So you're in arid New Mexico, where water is something that is not taken for granted and should not be. Give us a little background if you will on your latest book, “Water is For Fighting Over.”

John Fleck 2:15 Yeah, the full title is really important because it's a little bit of a bait and switch. The title is water is for fighting over and other myths of the of water in the West. And there's this old quote that's attributed to Mark Twain that in fact, he probably never said that whiskey is for drinking and water's for fighting over. But in the western United States, that quote is repeated and as believed by people that water is in a place like this, where it is scarce, is a source of conflict and you know, I believe that for a long time in my career as a journalist and only gradually over many, many years of covering water did I begin to realize that while we notice the places where there is conflict over water much more often, there are places where people learn to conserve and to collaborate and share the water and, and they really learn to avoid conflict. And I began to realize,

This week on Sea Change Radio, we celebrate the summer solstice to revel in our planet and talk music as we dig into the archives to revisit our discussions with two legendary rock musicians who also care deeply about environmental causes. First, we listen to our 2011 conversation with Bill Kreutzmann, the drummer for the Grateful Dead, a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and an organic farmer in Kauai who’s currently touring with Dead & Company. Then, our 2013 interview with sideman extraordinaire Chuck Leavell who, in addition to playing piano for the Rolling Stones, the Allman Brothers Band and Eric Clapton is quite passionate about preserving forests.

Narrator 00:01 This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Bill Kreutzmann 00:21 If I can help this beautiful world of ours, this blue green gem floating in space - flying in space, really - any way I can to help it be a better place, then that's what I want to do.

Narrator 00:58 This week on Sea Change Radio, we celebrate the summer solstice to revel in our planet and talk music as we dig into the archives to revisit our discussions with two legendary rock musicians who also care deeply about environmental causes. First, we listen to our 2011 conversation with Bill Kreutzmann, the drummer for the Grateful Dead, a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and an organic farmer in Kauai who’s currently touring with Dead & Company. Then, our 2013 interview with sideman extraordinaire Chuck Leavell who, in addition to playing piano for the Rolling Stones, the Allman Brothers Band and Eric Clapton is quite passionate about preserving forests.

Alex Wise (AW) 02:24 My guest today on Sea Change Radio is the former drummer of the Grateful Dead, a member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. He lives in Kauai. Bill Kreutzmann. Bill, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

Bill Kreutzmann (BK) 2:36 It's nice to be on the show.

AW 02:38 Great to have you here. When we last spoke you mentioned that you had made a promise to your longtime musical collaborator and friend, Jerry Garcia, to move to Hawaii.  Tell us how you fell in love with the Hawaiian Islands together.

BK 2:50 Well, Jerry and I always had an interest in diving. And we started getting certified when we were making a record in Marin County. There was a dive shop across from where we were recording and we went over there and started taking lessons - pool lessons like the first part of your training. And then we knew people over here. And this is actually Jack's Dive Locker. I'd like to give a plug. They're great folks. On the Big Island in Kona and him and I would go there diving all the time and one day we were standing in the back of this dive boat and just made him talking. And we we shook hands and said, OK, when the Grateful Dead ends we're both going to move over here, and that's how that all started. It was just from a love of the ocean, it was the same reason I'm so into the ocean today is it started, then started from diving and seeing what it was like.

AW 3:43 Obviously a large part of the Hawaiian economy, all the islands is tourism and vacation homes, but that has an environmental impact as well, doesn't it, Bill?

BK 3:52 It really does, and the first thing that comes to mind is that when people come over and they and they build a house, they buy a house. But it's already built. They're here for two weeks. So they don't really plug in. To help the neighborhood, they don't really plug in to what the island needs. They come here for their two weeks or whatever the length of time is, and they have a great time and I'm glad they get to do that,