There's a lot riding on the upcoming presidential election: reproductive freedom, climate change, healthcare, Supreme Court appointments, just to name a few. But no matter what issue is at the top of your list, the decision that Americans will be making over the next six weeks will have a lasting effect for decades to come. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with Democratic strategist and data analyst Tom Bonier about the presidential election. In the first half of our two-part discussion, we look beyond the polls, as Bonier explains other elements that measure voter intensity, examine the lingering impact of the 2022 Dobbs decision overturning Roe v. Wade, and dig into voter registration data in key states like Pennsylvania and Florida.

Narrator| 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Tom Bonier (TB) | 00:17 - In any given moment, most Americans aren't worried about their right to an abortion, but if you ask them what question is a deal breaker for them, that's just not negotiable. It's number one by far.

Narrator | 00:32 - There's a lot riding on the upcoming presidential election: reproductive freedom, climate change, healthcare, Supreme Court appointments, just to name a few. But no matter what issue is at the top of your list, the decision that Americans will be making over the next six weeks will have a lasting effect for decades to come. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with Democratic strategist and data analyst Tom Bonier about the presidential election. In the first half of our two-part discussion, we look beyond the polls, as Bonier explains other elements that measure voter intensity, examine the lingering impact of the 2022 Dobbs decision overturning Roe v. Wade, and dig into voter registration data in key states like Pennsylvania and Florida.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:33 - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Tom Bonier. Tom is a democratic strategist and data analyst, and he's with the Tara Group and TargetSmart. Tom, welcome to Sea Change. Radio,

Tom Bonier (TB) | 01:46 - It's great to be here.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:47 - I've wanted to talk to you for a long time. I've followed your work for many years. I know that being liberal in 2024 means constantly being afraid, but I find your words to be reassuring in these very murky times. The data that you work with is pointing in encouraging ways for you. Why can that dispel some of the fears that so many liberals are feeling since 2016, really…

Tom Bonier (TB) | 02:15 - Yeah. And, and, and I'll include myself in the we all of that. I think if, if you don't have some amount of fear, uh, given the stakes, you probably aren't paying close enough attention. But as you said, for me, I find solace in data and that goes above and beyond polling. I think most people focus on polling, and as we know, polling, is not always the most reliable indicator of which way the political winds might be blowing. And so what I tend to focus on is more individual level data that focuses on actions people are taking. So that's generally new voter registrations. It's election result, in the lead up to an election that might be primary election results. It could be special elections. And then, you know, the other sort of campaign-related information, how they're raising money. The numbers of activists and volunteers we're just looking for signs of energy and enthusiasm. We know that the one big part of the equation, of determining who's likely to win an election, is turnout to state the obvious. It's turnout and persuasion polls give us a pretty good sense of persuasion and all of that other data gives us a much clearer sense of engagement and turnout.

AW | 03:32 - But as you've said, polls don't tell us who's going to vote, and you call it measures of intensity. Why don't you spell that out for our listeners if you can. 

TB | 03:42 - Yeah, and so to even just to drill down on that point,

If you live in a hilly city (like I do), riding a bike for a quick errand can be an arduous proposition - at least that was true until the advent of electric assist. E-bikes now comprise a healthy 5% share of the bicycle market in the U.S. And as many new owners are discovering, e-bikes can offer a viable transportation alternative, reducing or even eliminating the need for a car. This week on Sea Change Radio we speak with e-bike executive Bill Klehm to get a snapshot of the industry, hear where he believes e-bikes are heading, and learn about his company’s unique distribution model.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Bill Klehm (BK) | 00:20 - I do think that the ride share investment that's now being doubled on is going to drive up the adoption of e-bikes, because more people will be trying them. You know, IBM in 1973 talked about this whole notion of the seven times rule. You don't truly change until you've experienced and can do something seven times. So with that, the more times we can create these experiences, the more opportunities we have to touch a customer and to have them consider our product.

Narrator | 00:52 - If you live in a hilly city (like I do), riding a bike for a quick errand can be an arduous proposition - at least that was true until the advent of electric assist. E-bikes now comprise a healthy 5% share of the bicycle market in the U.S. And as many new owners are discovering, e-bikes can offer a viable transportation alternative, reducing or even eliminating the need for a car. This week on Sea Change Radio we speak with e-bike executive Bill Klehm to get a snapshot of the industry, hear where he believes e-bikes are heading, and learn about his company’s unique distribution model.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:37 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Bill Clem. Bill is the CEO of e Bliss Global Bill. Welcome to Sea Change Radio.

Bill Klehm (BK) | 01:47 - Well, thank you very much for having me. Um, wonderful opportunity to kind of talk about one of my major passions, and that's e mobility and e-bikes. So thank you. 

Alex Wise (AW)  | 01:57 - Pleasure to have you on the show. So maybe you can give us a backdrop on the industry and where eBliss Global's model fits in all of this. 

BK | 02:06 - So, in 2016, there was 60,000 e-bikes sold in the US this year, by all stretches of the imagination, it's gonna be about 2.5 million. Keeping in mind that Toyota sells about 1.8 to 1.9 million cars. So e-bike industry in the United States has no, has now crossed over to a mass market product. Um, and it is now what I call a market segment of one. So that means that different channels of distribution, different product segments are starting to emerge. And what we, what we've done is taken a clean sheet approach to the industry. So in 2003, I started a company and made transmissions. So I made transmissions for the bike and e-bike industry, largely in Europe. So I got to sit around the campfire and watch Europe go from basically nothing to four or 5 million e-bikes a year over the period that I was, I was there with selling product. And so we decided to take a different approach to the US as we see the US taking a similar approach now to Europe in that e-bikes are becoming a fundamental piece of transportation, not just a toy. So one of our taglines is we are, we are transforming toys into transportation. So our, our approach is to take a and redesign the entire experience. So products are interesting, but what products do is create an experience for the consumer. And that experience, in our opinion, for a mass market product means one of no compromises. So customers who are buying these products today aren't really interested. They aren't in cyclist enthusiasts, they aren't people who like chains. They aren't people who like derailers. They aren't people who like maintenance. They want to like the experience of riding an e-bike and or a bik...

As election season kicks into high gear, it can be a challenge to talk about anything else but the race between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. This week on Sea Change Radio, we succumb to that temptation as we turn to the second half of our discussion with political analyst Jared Yates Sexton. Then, we dig into the archives to hear from Lauren Kim, a born-again Christian environmentalist who volunteers for an organization called Young Evangelicals for Climate Action.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Jared Yates Sexton (JYS) | 00:16 - I don't think anyone should give him any space to discuss anything. And quite frankly, I think by giving him the trappings of interviews and space on networks or whatever, it normalizes something that is inherently abnormal and dangerous.

Narrator | 00:33 - As election season kicks into high gear, it can be a challenge to talk about anything else but the race between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. This week on Sea Change Radio, we succumb to that temptation as we turn to the second half of our discussion with political analyst Jared Yates Sexton. Then, we dig into the archives to hear from Lauren Kim, a born-again Christian environmentalist who volunteers for an organization called Young Evangelicals for Climate Action.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:20 - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Jared Yates Sexton. Jared is a political analyst and he is the host of the Muck Rake podcast. And his online writings can be read at dispatches from a collapsing state. Jared, welcome back to Sea Change Radio.

Jared Yates Sexton (JYS) | 01:33 - Hey, Alex, it's great to see you.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:35 - So, we were talking about trying to get local elections higher on people's radar. Some of the things I would add to the points that you've made in addition to caring about your school board elections and all these other smaller elections than the President, it's important to think about politics in a less abstract way. If we can think about how it affects not just yourself personally. I, I'm privileged and I will be okay if Donald Trump gets elected. I'm horrified by the prospect of it, not for my own fortune, but for the fortune of the world and, and the people who can't afford to have him be in charge. And we feed into that in, in our media questions like, politician, A, how are you gonna please black voters in Georgia by giving them things that black voters in Georgia care about? What, why, why do we have to slice and dice our issues into demographics that way?

JYS | 02:33 - Well, I, want to make a few points because you've brought up, uh, a lot of good, important issues that I think we need to get into. First things first, I'm a white dude who used to live in Georgia. I don't live in Georgia anymore. My wellbeing and my family's wellbeing depends on the wellbeing of black people in Georgia. And what I have been taught, and this is a larger thing, I want to point out, we're in a political crisis. We're in a democratic crisis. We're also in a spiritual crisis. We're also in a mental health crisis. And here's the reason why, since the 1980s, we have been absolutely bombarded and abused by this idea that the only thing that matters in the world is what you get and whether or not you are able to have wealth and comfort and safety, right? And, and by the way, it's been used against us completely. It's alienated us from each other. Everyone says, oh, it's social media, it's tv, it's whatever. No, it's not. Those things have built off of a larger idea, which is that neoliberalism tells us, you are alone. You are in danger. Take care of yourself. Right? 

AW | 03:38 - Tax cuts has been one of the most obvious go-to things for the Republican party for 50 years. It's like you care about taxes being lower, right? And then let's just feed into that beast for decades. 

JYS | 03:51 - And look what's happened.

So far this election season has been pretty dramatic, with candidate switch-ups, surges in fundraising and volunteerism, and a growing list of criminal charges laid against one of the candidates for president. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to political analyst Jared Yates Sexton about the state of the hotly contested race for the White House. We get his takeaways from the recent Democratic National Convention, look at the turnout disparity between older adults and youth voters, and discuss how to get all voters in this country more engaged in down-ballot races.

Narrator| 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Jared Yates Sexton (JYS) | 00:18 - The good news is that small d Democratic power, the actual struggle and organizing for this thing, it can change the world. You can have a better life. Your kids can have a better life. Your neighbors can have better lives. It can be so much better, and we can fight for it. And matter of fact, when we fight for it, we win. The bad news is this, we do have to get involved.

Narrator | 00:40 - So far this election season has been pretty dramatic, with candidate switch-ups, surges in fundraising and volunteerism, and a growing list of criminal charges laid against one of the candidates for president. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to political analyst Jared Yates Sexton about the state of the hotly contested race for the White House. We get his takeaways from the recent Democratic National Convention, look at the turnout disparity between older adults and youth voters, and discuss how to get all voters in this country more engaged in down-ballot races.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:30 - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Jared Yates Sexton. Jared is a political analyst and he is the host of the Muckrake podcast. His online writings can be read at dispatches from a collapsing state. Jared, welcome back to Sea Change Radio.

Jared Yates Sexton (JYS) | 01:46 - Hey, Alex, it's great to see you.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:48 - So you just got back from covering the DNC, the Democratic National Convention, and I wanted to get your take on this, and I've, I've been eager to discuss politics with you for the year. This so much has gone on since we last spoke, but what stood out to you from going to Chicago recently? 

Jared Yates Sexton (JYS) | 02:09 - Well, so it was sort of a, a tale of two experiences. Alex, I, I've been observing politics, you know, I've been, I've been working in it now for the past eight years, but I've been observing it my entire life. It's really weird to see the Democratic party nailing their messaging. Like it's a really shocking thing because this is a party that shoots itself in the foot and then decides to go ahead and shoot the other foot. You know, you, you can set your watch by it. But this was a, a really well done spectacle. And, you know, some people get uncomfortable when I call it propaganda, but that's what conventions are. It's a matter of getting people excited and getting them rallied to go into the main, uh, election season, you know, running up to the actual election day. The Democrats have managed, I, I think both by strategic decisions, but also by pure happenstance and by sort of harnessing what's going on in, in our political climate and discourse. They have managed to gain enthusiasm and direction and momentum. But I also spent my time among the protests outside of the Democratic National Convention. I spent a lot of time with the, uh, the Gaza protesters, and I happened to see a lot of brutality and oppression that was, uh, wielded out by the Chicago pd. And one of the things that really struck me about kind of straddling those two worlds and watching at night at this very, very slick political presentation, there were problems, but we don't have to get into all of those and get into the particulars, but watching a slick presentation that basically is riding on the momentum of...

As kids, many of us read “Fahrenheit 451” by Ray Bradbury and thought, "man, this book banning and burning stuff is terrible." Apparently, though, not everyone felt the same. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to filmmaker Arthur Bradford about his most recent documentary for MSNBC Films entitled "To Be Destroyed," which takes viewers inside efforts to ban books from a public high school in Rapid City, South Dakota. The film follows author and literacy advocate Dave Eggers, as he travels to the school district where his novel, "The Circle," was pulled from shelves along with four other titles. Bradford tells us about why this topic felt so important to him, gives us a glimpse behind the making of the film, and discusses how the documentary reveals some larger truths about right-wing crusaders in this country.

Narrator| 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Arthur Bradford (AB) | 00:21 - I asked him about this notion that teachers were indoctrinating students, and he said, I, I don't have time to indoctrinate students. And if I had that ability, I would use it to get students to turn their work in on time and to wear deodorant every day.

Narrator | 00:36 - As kids, many of us read “Fahrenheit 451” by Ray Bradbury and thought, "man, this book banning and burning stuff is terrible." Apparently, though, not everyone felt the same. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to filmmaker Arthur Bradford about his most recent documentary for MSNBC Films entitled "To Be Destroyed," which takes viewers inside efforts to ban books from a public high school in Rapid City, South Dakota. The film follows author and literacy advocate Dave Eggers, as he travels to the school district where his novel, "The Circle," was pulled from shelves along with four other titles. Bradford tells us about why this topic felt so important to him, gives us a glimpse behind the making of the film, and discusses how the documentary reveals some larger truths about right-wing crusaders in this country.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:50 - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Arthur Bradford. He’s a documentary filmmaker and his latest film is “To Be Destroyed.” Arthur, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

Arthur Bradford (AB) | 02:02 - Thanks, Alex. It's good to be here.

Alex Wise (AW) | 02:05 - So I should tell listeners that Arthur and I are friends from high school, and I haven't seen him since his debut film. How's your news? First, tell our listeners what how's Your News was all about. I thought it was terrific.

AB | 02:18 - Yeah, that was like over 20 years ago that that film came out. I had been working at a summer camp for people with disabilities and uh, I was teaching a video class there and we started doing these news programs, and one of the segments that kind of took off was having some of the campers, people with disabilities do man-on-the-street interviews. And so this movie, “How's Your News?” was a feature documentary where we took five of the more outgoing people with disabilities from the camp and we drove across the country, uh, and they would interview people all along the way. 

AW | 02:56 - And at the, at the screening that I saw of this, they were all in attendance as well, along with Francis Ford Coppola. It was a really cool event. And the kids, who are now adults, were very engaging and I highly recommend that film to folks. Can people rent it on Amazon still? 

AB | 03:14 - It's kind of hard to find, like there's also different versions of it. So after we did that, you can find it on YouTube, honestly, that's probably the best way. But we did a feature length film of it that was on HBO and then, years later, we also did, we started going to political conventions. So in 2008 we went to, um, no, 2004 we went to the political conventions. And then we did a short-lived series for MTV called How’s Your News? which is probably really hard to find,

As the dog days of summer shorten, and our vacations wind down, we dig into the Sea Change Radio archives to revisit two climate-related conversations. First, we discuss the issue of a warming planet with Andrea Thompson, a science reporter and associate editor at Scientific American. We look at how people and policymakers are trying to cope with the rising temps and examine how different parts of the globe are being affected. Then, we speak to David Messina, the CEO of Rumin8, an Australian-based startup that is hoping to transform the cattle industry. The company’s main product is a lab-grown feed additive that is designed to significantly reduce methane emissions in ruminants like cattle and sheep. We discuss the problem that Rumin8 is trying to solve and talk about the company’s business strategy and hurdles it faces.

For many of us, the holiday season presents an opportunity to spend some time thinking about people less fortunate than ourselves. This week on Sea Change Radio, we spotlight a story of hope, determination and redemption. Our guest is Christine Yoo the director and producer of the new documentary film 26.2 to Life which takes viewers into the San Quentin Prison Marathon and its 1000 Mile Club. We learn about the inspiration behind the film, discuss the challenges of long distance running behind bars, and look at what the film reveals about our prison system and the effect it has on millions.

Narrator | 00:02 – This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I’m Alex Wise.

Christine Yoo (CY) | 00:23 – There were a lot of people there with brothers or fathers or mothers in prison, or their kids in prison too. It’s a cycle that is self-perpetuating.

Narrator | 00:38 – For many of us, the holiday season presents an opportunity to spend some time thinking about people less fortunate than ourselves. This week on Sea Change Radio, we spotlight a story of hope, determination and redemption. Our guest is Christine Yoo the director and producer of the new documentary film 26.2 to Life which takes viewers into the San Quentin Prison Marathon and 1000 Mile Club. We learn about the inspiration behind the film, discuss the challenges of long distance running behind bars, and look at what the film reveals about our prison system and the effect it has on millions. 

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:38 –  I am joined on Sea Change Radio by my high school classmate, Christine Yu. Chris is the director and producer of the new documentary film 26.2 to Life. Christine, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

Christine Yoo (CY) | 01:51 – Hey Alex, how are you? Glad to be here.

Alex Wise (AW)  | 01:55 – First, why don’t you give us a brief synopsis of 26.2 to Life, and then I want to dive into how you came about the project because it’s, it’s really a labor of love. It took six years, right?

Christine Yoo (CY)  | 02:07 – Yeah, absolutely. Six long, very long years. So 26.2 to Life takes you inside the San Quentin Prison Marathon. And it explores the transformative power of running through the lens of the prisons running club, which is called the Thousand Mile Club. And within this club that is organized by these volunteers who are elite marathon runners that go into the prison throughout the year to coach a group of incarcerated men, they train so that every November they run a 26.2 mile marathon entirely behind the prison walls, 105 laps around this prison yard. But more than running the film really explores, uh, what, what led these men to the starting line at San Quentin and highlights their rehabilitative journeys to, to define themselves, you know, to be more than their crime. 

Alex Wise (AW) | 03:12 – So how did you get interested in this project and how did you decide which characters you were going to follow as, as, as the story unfolded in front of you? 

CY | 03:24 – So, my relationship with the prison system started more than 20 years ago. Um, I had a friend who was also fellow Korean American who was wrongfully convicted, and he was sentenced to 271 years in California state prison. Um, it really impacted me a lot. Um, I knew his whole family and how devastating it was for them. And he was somebody that I felt basically could have been my brother. You know, we had like the same type of family vacations, you know, grew up very similarly. Our fathers went to the same school in Korea. Um, and so because of his incarceration, I really started to wonder, uh, what does that look like if you know you’re going to die in prison? I mean, what does that act? How do you actually carry out a life? You know, because people still need to find a way to live. So what does that really actually look like for people? Uh, and the, so I guess basically the opportunity to explore that question came to me in 2016.

Most of us have never been there but according to a quick Google search, some of the things you might see at the bottom of the ocean include sea spiders, tube worms, and something called a blob sculpin. Add to that list: heavy equipment for mining rare earth minerals like cobalt and manganese. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with Daniel Kammen, an energy professor at the University of California at Berkeley, about deep-sea mining. We learn about this segment of the extraction industry, consider the environmental hazards, and examine why it’s largely unnecessary. We also take a look at the promise of growing rare minerals like perovskites in laboratories, and discuss the recent Sunnylands Climate Agreement between the U.S. and China.

Narrator | 00:02 – This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I’m Alex Wise.

Daniel Kammen (DK) | 00:25 – Cobalt as mined today, either in the Congo, where most, most of it comes from, or um, from the seabed, is hugely problematic and damaging.

Narrator | 00:37 – Most of us have never been there but according to a quick Google search, some of the things you might see at the bottom of the ocean include sea spiders, tube worms, and something called a blob sculpin. Add to that list: heavy equipment for mining rare earth minerals like cobalt and manganese. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with Daniel Kammen, an energy professor at the University of California at Berkeley, about deep-sea mining. We learn about this segment of the extraction industry, consider the environmental hazards, and examine why it’s largely unnecessary. We also take a look at the promise of growing rare minerals like perovskites in laboratories, and discuss the recent Sunnylands Climate Agreement between the U.S. and China.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:46 – I’m joined now on Sea Change Radio by Daniel Kammen. He is a Professor of Energy at UC Berkeley, and a former science envoy for President Obama. Dan, welcome back to Sea Change Radio. 

Daniel Kammen (DK) | 01:57 – Thanks for having me back on. I really appreciate it. 

Alex Wise (AW) | 02:00 – Always a pleasure. I wanted you to summarize the white paper that you presented at COP 28 in Dubai. It was entitled, “Next Generation EV Batteries Eliminate the Need for Deep-Sea Mining.” So first, what is deep-sea mining and what’s the problem that it presents?

Daniel Kammen (DK) | 02:19 – So, deep-seabed mining is in my view, kind of one of the scariest crossover issues between the old energy economy and the new energy economy. And by that what I mean is that we’ve known about seabed mining for a long time. In fact, Howard Hughes was, one of the many ways he was famous was he constructed a boat, the Glomar Explorer that was ostensibly supposed to be harvesting these nodules of rare earth metals, manganese, cobalt, a variety of things from the sea floor. And they’re about the size of tennis balls or softballs. They grow very slowly, um, at low temperature and, and, and high pressure and he had this boat that was designed to go do that. But in fact, we now know decades later that the Glomar Explorer was actually a CIA front and it was a front to go and try to pull a sunken Russian submarine off the bottom of the ocean.

AW | 03:15 – This was not in the white paper, but this is very interesting .

DK | 03:18 – It is very interesting. That’s right. So, so this is an example of deep-seabed harvesting being a front for essentially cold war. So we’ve known about there are these nodules on the ocean bed floor. They grow a fraction of a millimeter a year in size. They accumulate these, these materials. And the issue that intersects with the new energy economy is that with the rise of the need for materials for solar panels and in particular batteries for electric vehicles, a number of companies have been launched. They have names like the Metals Company, impossible Metals, and others arguing that we should be harvesting these materials...

For Sci-Fi buffs, a future infused with AI may evoke unsettling images of HAL from Stanley Kubrick's film, "2001: A Space Odyssey." In truth, the evolving technology of artificial intelligence may well be taking over, but not quite how the filmmakers envisioned it. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with Andrew Winston, a sustainability strategist and bestselling author, about what AI means for the climate. We look at how AI can help various key sectors of the global economy become more efficient, examine the dilemma of AI's seemingly insatiable energy needs, and discuss its potential to contribute to a carbon-free future.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Andrew Winston | 00:17 - It is just, we don't really have time to work it through and double emissions and then come back down like, we're out of time on climate. So how do we make sure we're adding this without creating another big problem?

Narrator | 00:32 - For Sci-Fi buffs, a future infused with AI may evoke unsettling images of HAL from Stanley Kubrick's film, "2001: A Space Odyssey." In truth, the evolving technology of artificial intelligence may well be taking over, but not quite how the filmmakers envisioned it. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with Andrew Winston, a sustainability strategist and bestselling author, about what AI means for the climate. We look at how AI can help various key sectors of the global economy become more efficient, examine the dilemma of AI's seemingly insatiable energy needs, and discuss its potential to contribute to a carbon-free future.

Alex Wise | 01:32 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Andrew Winston. Andrew is a sustainability strategist and a bestselling author. Andrew, welcome back to Sea Change Radio. 

Andrew Winston | 01:42 - It's good to be here. 

Alex Wise | 01:44 - So you contribute regularly to MIT Sloan's Management Review. Yep. And you have a recent piece on artificial intelligence ai, and it's entitled, will AI Help or Hurt Sustainability? Yes. People either talk about AI as either the end of humanity as we know it, or this wonderful life changing technology, or they just completely tune it out and don't want to know anything about it. What does that mean? So first, why don't you explain what AI is on the most basic level, and then we can dive into the sustainability conundrum. 

Andrew Winston | 02:24 - Well, first it's a interesting question. What is AI? So there's a long piece in MIT technology review recently called What is AI? And it's a long article that basically comes to the conclusion of nobody really knows, and people use the phrase in many, many different ways. The way that author described it was, AI is a set of technologies that make computers do things that are thought to require intelligence when done by people. So it just means there's things happening. It seems to be thinking even though at this point it really isn't and seems to do kind of magical things, right? So the, the, the everyday interaction that we have with it, which is growing by the way, if people use, have used chat GPTs, you can, you can make it do fun things like write a poem about, you know, mid medieval times. But I use it to look at my writing and say, Hey, what's a summary of this? Or What would you title this? Or, what are five things I should think about in this topic? And it's just a really good partner, but it's clearly getting embedded into companies of all stripes in every sector, and the hype about it and what it's going to do for companies and potentially for, you know, our biggest challenges and, and the planet, the hype's really big, but it's unclear yet what's living up to the hype. And, and there's some downsides which we, which we can go into. But look, I think it's a really big deal. I think it's, it's one of those technologies, when I first started playing with it, um, I had that same feeling like when I first Google...

This week on Sea Change Radio we speak to Lisa Song of ProPublica about her recent work spotlighting efforts by the plastics industry to make its fossil fuel-based products seem benign. We examine how plastic recycling falls short in many areas, look at the problems surrounding a relatively new plastic recycling process called pyrolysis, and then discuss her trip to Ottawa, Canada where she attended a UN conference which purported to be plastic-free.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Lisa Song (LS) | 00:28 - The first big lesson is just that pyrolysis is very inefficient. If you start out with a hundred pounds of plastic waste that you feed into the pyrolysis process, by the end, only 15 or 20 pounds of that original trash becomes a new plastic product.

Narrator | 00:50 - This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to Lisa Song of ProPublica about her recent work, spotlighting efforts by the plastics industry to make its fossil fuel-based products seem benign. We examine how plastic recycling falls short in many areas, look at the problem surrounding a relatively new plastic recycling process called Pyrolysis, and then discuss her trip to Ottawa, Canada where she attended a UN conference, which purported to be plastic-free.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:37 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Lisa Song. Lisa is a reporter at ProPublica. Lisa, welcome back to Sea Change Radio.

Lisa Song (LS) | 01:45 - Thanks for having me.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:47 - Always a pleasure to have you on the show. You've been doing some important work in the plastic space. Recently covered a quote unquote plastic free conference up in Ottawa, Canada. And then you've written a really well researched piece called Selling a Mirage about the problems with plastic recycling. Why don't we first start with that, this new pyrolysis technology, which ExxonMobil has called the circularity of plastic. I like that. Why is plastic not as circular as ExxonMobil might want it to seem?

Lisa Song (LS) | 02:24 - Yeah, so the story I wrote was about a particular form of chemical recycling and chemical recycling, or what the industry likes to call advanced recycling is this whole collection of ways to recycle hard to recycle plastic. And the most popular form of chemical recycling is called pyrolysis. And so that's what my story was about. Pyrolysis basically means you take a bunch of plastic trash and you heat it up at very high temperatures until you break all of the chemical bonds and you end up with the molecular building blocks of plastic, and then you use those to make new plastic. So the plastics industry has been marketing pyrolysis and chemical recycling for a while now, and they're really touting it as this kind of miracle cure because with pyrolysis, you can recycle things like plastic bags and a lot of food packaging and, and think of the sort of flimsy plastic that we use every day in, in packaging or, um, to, uh, as containers for, um, crackers and chips and cookies that you buy from the grocery store. Those kinds of things. You can't really recycle in your regular blue recycling bin. And pyrolysis is supposed to be the solution to that. 

Alex Wise (AW) | 03:47 - And it's kind of the holy grail for plastic recyclers. I can imagine. Where you wouldn't want to be as beholden to dividing up all the plastics is that one of the advantages is that on paper you would be able to take a milk jug or a plastic detergent container and then some plastic wrap, and then throw it all into a big bin and melt it down, and then voila, you've got a whole new substrate to work with. Is that the basic concept? 

LS | 04:18 - Yeah. So one of the ways that it's been marketed is that pyrolysis can take a bunch of the messy, dirty mixed plastic waste that you can't recycle normally, and it will turn it all into brand new pristine plastic that's so clean. You could use it as food packaging. Um,