Sketchnote Podcast

In this final episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast season 14, we’ve gathered all the tips from 9 fantastic visual thinkers to inspire you!

Sponsored by Concepts

This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android.

Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings — any time you like. You can nudge the curve of a line, swap out one brush for another, or change stroke thickness and color at any stage of your drawing — saving hours and hours of rework.

Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need — large or small. Never worry about fuzzy sketchnotes again.

Concepts is a powerful, flexible tool that’s ideal for sketchnoting.

SEARCH “Concepts” in your favorite app store to give it a try.

Running Order

• Intro
• Dr. Bryan Vartabedian
• Ingrid Lill
• Jono Hey
• Elizabeth Chesney
• Luke Kelvington
• Lena Pehrs
• Rev Andy Gray
• Ashton Rodenheiser
• Gary Kopervas
• Outro

Links

• Dr. Vartabedian’s 33 Charts Newsletter
• Ingrid Lill’s Website
• Jono Hey’s Sketchplanations Website
• Elizabeth Chesney’s Website
• Luke Kelvington on LinkedIn
• Lena Pehrs’ Website
• Rev Andy Gray’s Website
• Ashton Rodenhesier’s Website
• Gary Kopervas’ Website

1. Dr. Bryan Vartabedian’s Tips

1. Be Intentional.
2. Look for a role model.
3. Keep it simple, keep it clean.

2. Ingrid Lill’s Tips

1. Message first. Use your drawing to communicate.
2. Keep it simple.
3. Experiment. Use your art on your everyday use.

3. Jono Hey’s Tips

1. The first draft is always perfect.
2. Keep it simple.
3. Keep going.

4. Elizabeth Chesney’s Tips

1. There is no standard.
2. Create playbooks or scrapbooks of your work.
3. Get away from your desk. Take a break.

5. Luke Kelvington’s Tips

1. Practice and take courses.
2. Use tools to perfect your work.
3. Share your projects.
4. It's okay to wait to be inspired.

6. Lena Pehrs’ Tips

1. Explore metaphors by taking creative or poetry classes.
2. Get good structure in your drawing.
3. Try and change format.
4. Have some fun.
5. Play with children. Draw with them.

7. Rev Andy Gray’s Tips

1. Practice using long-form, business-based YouTube videos.
2. Network with other people.
3. Photograph your work and link to it.
4. Practice the "Something about" technique.

8. Ashton Rodenheiser’s Tips

1. However you need to create it, do it.
2. Cliches are okay.
3. Don't get into the comparing mode.
4. When you are intimidated, you can instead flip it and turn it into inspiration.
5. Have clean nice letters.

9. Gary Kopervas’ Tips

1. Do something and share it.
2. If you want to learn something, draw it because you have to process the information to understand it.
3. Share your work with people who inspire you, you never know where all that interaction might lead.
4. Get on someone else's radar.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer

Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast

You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source.

Support the Podcast

To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

Subscribe to the Sketchnote Podcast

You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source.

Support the Podcast

To support the creation, production, and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde's bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

Sketchnote Lab is Mike Rohde’s space designed to bridge the gap between sketchnote theory and practice. You don’t need to be an artist to think visually. Join Mike and learn to use sketchnotes to clarify your thinking, solve problems, and move forward. Learn more about Sketchnote Lab.

Mike is the author of The Sketchnote Handbook and The Sketchnote Workbook, bestselling books that teach regular people how to start sketchnoting and build a regular sketchnoting practice.

He founded the Sketchnote Army and hosts the Sketchnote Podcast, where he interviews visual thinkers to understand what makes them tick.

Mike teaches recorded, live, and in-person workshops to accelerate your sketchnoting practice and provides personalized coaching for your specific visual-thinking challenges.

He is the illustrator of bestselling books like REWORK, REMOTE, The $100 Startup, Honest SEO, The Culture Playbook, and The Future Begins with Z.

Become a Supporting or Founding Lab Partner to support Mike’s work.

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©2026 Mike Rohde, Sketchnote Lab

In this episode, Gary Kopervas shares how drawing and writing freed his imagination and got reactions from others. He’s built on his early skills to become a cartoonist, copywriter, creative director, and brand consultant.

Sponsored by Concepts

This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android.

Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework.

Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting.

SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try.

Running Order

• Intro
• Welcome
• Who is Gary Kopervas
• Origin Story
• Gary Kopervas's current work
• Sponsor: Concepts
• Tips
• Tools
• Where to find Gary
• Outro

Links

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Gary's LinkedIn
• Gary's Facebook
• Gary's Instagram
• Gary's Website
• Brainstorming by Dave Gray, Sunni Brown, James Macanuto
• Out on a Limb cartoons
• King Features Syndicate

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Vellum Bristol paper
• Copic markers
• Paper Mater Flair markers

Tips

1. Do something and share it.
2. If you want to learn something, draw it because you have to process the information to understand it.
3. Share your work with people who inspire you, you never know where all that interaction might lead.
4. Get on someone else's radar.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer

Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast

You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source.

Support the Podcast

To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike, and I'm here with Gary Kopervas. Gary, how are you doing?

Gary Kopervas: I'm doing really well. Mike, thanks for having me. Really excited to be here.

MR: Yeah. Did I say your name right, Kopervas? Is that the right way to say that?

GK: That is spot on.

MR: Really.

GK: And that doesn't always happen, so I appreciate that.

MR: Yeah. Well, I just came back from Holland, so I've been aware of very unusual names, and trying to pronounce them, that was about a month ago, end of August, early September.

GK: I think everyone who's been mispronouncing my name, I should ask them to make a visit and bone up on the pronunciation because I often get the "coppervas" as in the metal or the copper. So, appreciate that.

MR: Yeah, not a problem. I always try to make sure I say the name right at least. At least that's the one kind thing I could do for somebody. But let's get into a little bit about you. We've crossed paths because I think we ran across each other on LinkedIn and I really liked your stuff, I think you liked my stuff, we got chatting and I said, you know, "You'd be a really good candidate for the podcast 'cause of the work you're doing." And I'm always trying to push the boundaries of who I talk with to go more toward the edges, so.

GK: And I think we have some people in common who introduced—you know, I was aware of your work prior to that, but some people have talked about the podcast and I think we have them in common. So that helped facilitate today. So I'm grateful for that too.

MR: Yeah. Now that I think back, there was someone who recommended you, I'm trying to remember who it was that recommended you, but I'd have to.

GK: Martha.

MR: Martha, yes, of course. Yeah. So, once I saw your work, then that totally made sense. So, I'm glad. Thank you, Martha, if you're listening.

GK: Yeah, and I think she will. So she'll be happy for that.

MR: She's a pretty dedicated listener. I do know that.

GK: Yes.

MR: Well, why don't we get right into it? Why don't you tell us a little bit of who you are and what you do, and then jump right into your origin story? How did you end up here? You can go back all the way to when you were a little kid if you want to. I just love the origin story 'cause it tells me so much about the person and what motivates them.

GK: Yeah, that's very true. As far as today, I guess I would describe myself as really a cartoonist turned, copywriter, turned creative director, turned brand consultant. It has been an evolution and not really stopping something and starting to do something else, it was always continuing to do what I did in the early days which we can talk about.

But it started to evolve it to to the career that I was in. And I went from college to advertising agencies. I live in New Jersey and started in New York. And just to answer your question of who I am Gary Kopervas, and then I'm all those things that I just mentioned. I grew up in East Coast, so advertising was always something that I wanted to do. Growing up, there was this great television show called "Bewitched."

MR: Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah. I watched "Bewitched" all the time.

GK: She was a genie out of a bottle, you know, I think it was a documentary, I'm not sure, but she was a genie—oh, no, a witch. Sorry about that, that's actually not a genie.

MR: Bewitched, yeah.

GK: Bewitched. She was a witch, Elizabeth Montgomery, a cute witch and married to an advertising executive. So it was always like, man, I have to look into this advertising thing because it was always creative and it was always, you know, Darren creating these cool campaigns. And then his wife, the witch, would always splash it up with something really cool and amazing and Darren would get all the credit, you know, for being so creative.

So, you know, it was a sitcom when you're a little kid, but I just thought this advertising seems like it might be a good thing which did dovetail into I guess an origin story, is that I was a quiet kid. I just didn't talk a whole lot. But I found at some point writing and drawing and playing the guitar became really great forms of self-expression for me. So I started to just you know, write stories and comics. I grew up around, "Mad Magazine" and "Marvel Comics."

I had a mom, like many moms who saved a lot of things, and I would see there's elaborate stories of things that I had written and illustrated. So the cartooning thing was really a great thing for me because it just allowed me to, at some level, make sense of the world around me. I didn't write journals per se, but I kept pretty good—maybe unconsciously at that age, but I would always draw what I was into and draw what I was interested in. And to look at it years, years later, it was always amazing.

One of the examples, and I still laugh about that was parent-teacher night. The teacher said to my mom, is like, "Oh, we asked the kids to draw something that they like, you know, a house, maybe a Turkey made out of their hands, some cotton and clouds." And I brought into class the illustrated, as best I can, the parody of The Godfather from "Mad Magazine" by Mort Drucker. You know, just painstakingly drawing Sonny Corleone, and my mother was like, "Wow, all the other kids had, like, you know, houses and trees and yellow suns, and you came in with the Godfather parody."

And they kept an eye on me for a little while, but it was just an example of us fascinated by getting lost into writing words and drawing pictures. But the true origin story goes back maybe a little bit further, but like most, and looking at your wall, it's fun to see and reminds me of superheroes and Marvel. And like most kids that are, you know, six, seven years old Superman and Batman, maybe Captain America or Thor. And I would draw them which was really great for things like anatomy and drawing just what human beings look like. And that was fun.

But in drawing that, I like many kids wanted to be Batman. Batman was really a fun thing, and I would have stuff on walls, but there was a period of about a year or two when I can't explain it, but that's how the culture works, is I really got excited about Zorro. Do you remember Zorro?

MR: Yeah.

GK: Zorro was the swashbuckling—

MR: He left a Z, and when he would fight crime or whatever, right?

GK: And I thought that was a cool thing. So me being a quiet guy and using drawing and writing to express myself when I was around that same age, six or seven, I thought it would be like a really cool idea that on one rainy day, I did have a Sharpie, maybe it was my first experience with Sharpies, where I put Little Z's under the furniture in my family's living room furniture.

So I thought it was cool, I had Z's all underneath, you know, put under various pieces of furniture until my mother did see that and said, "Come here a minute. What gives on all this furniture, there's little Zs under our living room chairs. What's with the Zs? Did you draw the Zs? "

And I want to remember it this way, I'm not sure if it actually happened, but it was like, "Mama, I really didn't draw those Z's. Zorro did. I had nothing to do with it." After talking to and probably a grounding, I realized, "Do not deface furniture with Z's." But at a very young age, I found there was something really interesting about drawing and writing and letting your imagination run, and to get a reaction from people.

What I think it did, is it allowed me to build confidence, you know? 'Cause I was quiet and played sports and did things like, you know, hung out with friends in the neighborhood. But I think I started to find, "Hey, I'm actually okay at this. I can write and I can draw, and I usually get reactions outta people. Not always favorable, you know, with the whole Zorro thing. But it was an opportunity to express.

And I followed that into jobs and started to shape this idea that I was very visual, but also wrote, so sort of a left hand, right hand. Then what sealed it for me was, to follow this little arc of an origin, I was in high school like many, and in a chemistry lab in high school, maybe 10th-grade 11th-grade. Maybe it was a bio lab. And it was a three-hour lab, and the teacher was, I still remember him, he was a really serious guy.

And I remember wearing earth shoes, and he wore his pants really high, and he had a beard with no mustache. So I couldn't help but say, man, he sees really sort of a comic character. So it was an afternoon of learning about the Doppler effect, about the little dropping of balls into the water and the rings of things, which is, you know, pretty important at the time.

And it was long though, for me. My mind started to just wander in my hand and my imagination. So I started to, in my notebook draw a picture of this teacher talking about the Doppler effect. And it was a bit of a caricature, but it was taking something he said about the Doppler and, and drawing it.

And a neighbor nearby said, "Lemme see that. That's funny. That's really funny." So I started this, a Doppler effect of distraction in this classroom where people grab the notebook and passed it. All of a sudden I realized it was getting away from me. And people laughed and they're like, "Oh, man, this is—" And as teachers often do, they pick up on that right away. And he saw about three rows away from me, saw disruption.

So he walked over and he looked at, "Hold on one second. May I see this?" And he saw the picture that I had drawn, and with this little scenario, and in a poker face, didn't say much, and he said, "Oh, who did this?" And I was like, "Uh-oh this is gonna top my Zorro experience. This is like, serious now." So he came over and I heard this little earth shoe squeaking, you know, as he made his way through the rows. 'Cause people were like, "Who drew this?" And people gave me—

MR: They kept pointing backwards. Yeah.

GK: — people gave me up. I still remember, walked up to the side of me, you know, and I was just playing it cool. And he looked down and he said, "Did you draw this?" And he put the notebook in front of me. And I was like, "What am I gonna say?" I was like, "Yeah, I did do that." And I was expecting, oh no, I'm outta here. I'm gonna probably go somewhere, someone's office. And he looked at it and he goes, "So you did this?" I said, "Yeah, I did this." And he goes silence. It was like two seconds. And I thought, "Oh, it's just boiling up. This is not gonna go well."

MR: It's getting worse, yeah.

GK: He goes, "Could you add color to this? And I wanna put it in the frame and give it to my wife." And I just thought, "That did not go the way I thought it would go."

MR: No.

GK: He said, "This is so funny. I would love if you can just maybe pull it out and clean it up and put some color in it. And I like to give it to her for fun in a frame." And I realized at that point, the reactions that you can have, even in the most, you know, unexpected places of just an idea and a visual be it comic or just a diagram or what have you, that just captures people. And I just thought, "This is starting to get interesting."

And then from there, I went into to college and studied business thinking, advertising, and then got into creative departments. And then it's been that trajectory ever since. So it's funny though, those early stories, the early days led up to what had been, you know, a pretty, pretty long career now.

MR: Wow. Yeah. It prepared you in some ways to be ready. I love that you're channeling the spirit of Zorro to your mom, right?

GK: Oh.

MR: I guess she probably was thinking like, "Well, at least he drew it on the bottom of the furniture," right?

GK: He said, "Maybe he was thinking a little bit." But it was on the bottom. I don't know the mental process then, but it was so important that I did not do the top. And I think it was that you know, Zorro had that little mask, and he was sort of mysterious, so he didn't wanna go over the top. That was one of my early memories of that whole creativity.

MR: Wow. One of the first taggers, I guess Zorro. I never thought of it that way.

GK: Yeah. At least Sharpies could rub out and wash out if you wanted it to, but Zorro went right into the wood.

MR: He would cut into there. Yeah.

GK: He would cut into the wood. So I wasn't completely Zorro, so, but they were forgiving, thankfully.

MR: Yeah. And as they were on the bottom. Yeah. That's really cool. I love the story about the teacher as well, you know, because we have had a fair amount of teachers on this show, and they really embrace visualization. It seemed like this teacher was open enough to do the same and see the value. Like, wow, he really was. I would think any teacher that walked up and saw that, leave aside the humorous drawing of him, which he enjoyed, right? It worked out that he enjoyed it.

GK: Yeah.

MR: You were paying attention, right? You were capturing information and the stuff he was telling you, you were receiving it, right? That's a reflection of what you received, so.

GK: And that's a really good point. And I hadn't thought about it before, you know, trying to pull out what maybe would become mechanics of some sort that I would do later. But I was listening to Doppler and I had him in some context that said, "Oh, I heard you, but I'm just gonna interpret it."

And I think that's what, whether it's either sketchnoting or even workshops that I often do is I'm hearing what comes out or comes from and then quickly interpreting it and putting it into somewhat of a visual context, as, you know. And just isn't solely reporting what you hear. It's not like it's a court stenographer or something. It's interpreted and enhanced so it's more memorable and sometimes even more entertaining, you know?

MR: Right. And you're often connecting—I find myself connecting dots, like it may be unsaid, but there's a connection between these things that as I look at it, these have impact on each other, or one doesn't exist without the other. And you can visually connect those things, which could be pretty interesting. Maybe you did that as well in the work you did. I think the other thing too, as an a scientist, right? So he was a scientist.

GK: Yes.

MR: His whole job is observation. You have to be a good observer of what happens and then document it. You did all those things. You were observing him. You're almost, as though he were a monkey in a zoo or something, and you're observing like all the details.

GK: Yeah, that's true.

MR: And then, you're capturing what he was saying, and on top of it, and putting it in context. I'm curious, did you ever hear back from him, what his wife thought of your drawing? Did you get feedback on that frame drawing?

GK: I did. And it was a hallway because I remember it was, and I still had another year. I think it was like a junior year, I was still there around for a year. But he was a tough teacher grade-wise, but he did have a bit of a sense of humor. And it was almost like Catskills kind of humor where, you know, I think I hit a nerve, and he might've been like, "I don't see that here often." So it was a bit of a surprise.

And I think probably the following year, my senior year, and oftentimes if I remember correctly, a lot of teachers would hang out in the hall or near their classroom and welcome. I remember walking down the hall towards him and we made eye contact, and he was just like—

MR: I remember you.

GK: He did a little bit of the De Niro from his movie, "You, you, just wanna tell you, I gave it to my wife around Valentine's Day or whatever it was." And he goes, "She loved it. Now, she'll never let me forget about how high I wear my pants." So he even had a bit of self-effacing humor and order to just want me to just tighten it up so he can give it to his wife.

And I think we had in a way a bit of a connection there where he was grateful, but still maintaining his teacher status. But we had a moment in the hallway the following year where I walked away feeling pretty good. Oh, I kind of probably forgot about it, but it made me feel good. Other kids in my class, yet again, kind of quiet guy. And I find there's a little bit of a relationship of sometimes the quiet guys, the instigator.

As they say, "You gotta watch the quiet guy, you don't know what he's up to. " And it was a moment where people remembered that and said, you know, that it was fun and they remembered it years after. It's like, "Hey, how about that lab class, you remember that?" "Yeah, that was funny."

MR: Gary, the mastermind.

GK: Yeah.

MR: Talking about all that, so obviously you went to school and you ended up in, you talked about cartoonist copywriter, creative director, and now brand consultant. I'd be interested to hear the—it sounds like you didn't really stop doing the one thing. You just layered things on top, right? So you built all those things into the way you operate. Tell us how those things layer and what does that look like now that you're a brand consultant? How do those different parts come into what you do?

GK: And that's a great question. And it was a little bit of that. I'd started out as a junior writer at different agencies. One was in New York, and then I wound up going out to the Midwest. And so you're just doing what you're told and, you know, you're writing for whatever clients you were working on. I found myself—and this was years before even knowing what sketchnoting was, or people actually did it.

I was in many meetings, lots of meetings, and some boring meetings. And there were times when we didn't all work on our laptops, which was a little bit like, "Geez, I don't know why I wish I knew at that point." We all wrote in notebooks and things, so, we would often sit in, you know, circles or semi-circles and just notes and say, "Hey, let's take a break and we'll come back in 10 minutes."

And oftentimes, people would go by and in matter of casually walking by and look at my notebook, and it was just organized differently. Everyone else had the same notes taken the same way they took it back in high school and in their biology classes, just that everyone's notes looked identical. But in that 90-minute meeting, they would look at mine and go, "What kind of going on here? What is this? What are doing? You should be paying attention. Your notebooks should all look like everyone else is." It just didn't process that way.

My mind would work, as I often described it, in sound bites and snapshots. As the information came out an image would pop into my mind, and all of a sudden I would just doodle, a lot of doodling. I would doodle an image and then write what I heard around it. And they were just little episodic sketches during a 90-minute meeting. And people will be like, "How do you do that? How can I do that? Because I wanna take a guess and say, I'm gonna remember yours a little bit more."

So it's that idea again, of verbal visual working together. And I got somewhat known for amongst clients and creatives of that odd note-taking style. And then, and then the progression said, "Hey, we have a large meeting where we're gonna do a whiteboard, or we're gonna just put your paper up on the wall, could you just track notes and can you stand up and do that?" And I was like, "I think I could do that. I mean, I haven't, but I'll put my notebook aside and grab a couple of these markers, and sure let's do it.

And I started to do that in a larger scale at meetings, and I noticed people would take their phones out later on, people actually took photos with their phones. Took their phones out, took pictures of it. And I was like, "Wow, why are you doing that?" He said, "I don't wanna forget it. I don't wanna forget what we just did. And plus, I wanna share with my team."

So I was finding those moments where be it a high school moment where it connects and someone engages with it, years later engaged with it when they saw it on a conference room table or in a room. So it just continued to progress. And people kept waving me on, just do it over here and do it over there.

MR: Kind of encouragement.

GK: And then there was a moment where it went from, you know, doodling and sketching for my parents, you know, to some positive and negative effects. And then doing it in high school and having a moment with some teachers where it's just like, "That was a reinforcement." And then being in the working environment and ad agencies and with companies, them calling it out is kind of different and helping me to remember the material. And I thought that's really kind of cool.

And then there was a moment in the working world where I worked for maybe 10 years or 12 or more in new product development. As a group that I was one of the four charter members of a company in Cincinnati that started to do new products. So we would go into rooms and work with teams and research and sales and various others and start to build concepts for either beverages or foods or with hotel chains on how to build these new service programs.

But it was basically going from nothing to prototypes and just loosely done sketches. And that was really a great call of a decade of that kind of work where you're working in the intangibles and being able to sketch quickly. And, you know, that was always a great expression that someone shared with me is that a doodle is really the first prototype for anything. And that really lived in the new product era.

Another moment where I thought, okay, it's on now, it's kind of interesting, is I was doing an innovation session in Chicago for an education company that in essence trained accountants to become CPAs. So it was training-based and education-based. So a friend was running the program and said, "Hey, can you come out and join us for a couple of days and help facilitate and work their group for new ideas and new approaches, strategic planning kind of thing." And I said, "Sure, I'll do that."

I showed up on a Friday—or no, I left on Friday. So I showed up on a Wednesday the night before, and we often grab a bite to eat and talk about, okay, what's the next two days gonna be about? I really hadn't known much about it. And she was always, "Ah, just go with it. You're pretty good on the fly. It's the usual thing except for an education brand." It's like, okay.

But meeting with her and the rest of the team, somewhere between me leaving and showing up in Chicago, somebody had said. You know, I spoke to the client and they're really excited to do this, but someone sent me something in a PDF and it's called some kind of sketching."

And we were all like, "Well, what do you mean exactly? You know what you mean prototype, just like writing sketchbooks and sharing it?" She said, "No in front of the room to hear the ideas and then to live sketch them in the room and move on to the next." It was a strange request because somebody said, "Hey, any of you guys do that?"

MR: Here you are. "I can do that."

GK: "Anybody with any experience?" And it was a very good friend of mine said, "I didn't even see this coming so don't feel obligated, but do you wanna try?" I said, "Well, I haven't done it in this capacity. And it was always fairly loose and spontaneous, but now this is part of an expectation of a two-day conference."

MR: Right. It's different.

GK: So, I remember asking, "What is the client's expectation?" So they said, "I'll send you PDFs of what it is. "And it was largely what you would imagine it would be, you know? A lot of just loose sketches and a lot of mind mapping. It was more energetic and more, excuse me, visually interesting mind maps than just circles and hubs and spokes kind of thing. So at that point, it's like, "What do I have to lose? Yeah, okay. I'll do it." So they went out and got foam core or other types of materials, and handed me the markers. And I showed up in the morning going, "This is either gonna go pretty good or okay, or—"

MR: I'm never gonna do this again.

GK: "— I'm never gonna do this again." It might've been when you really started to make this more mainstream and make people aware of its sketchnoting, all of a sudden people are like, "Hey, I saw this thing, can we do that?" And it was a moment in time where probably a lot of what you were doing and some of your, you know, colleagues, someone on this client team said, "I'd like to incorporate this into our session." And now, it was maybe one of the more lucky instances that I could imagine because it went really well.

It's just while I was doing it, you have that out-of-body where you look down and go, "Man, this is like so much energy. Look at these people. There's laughter." And I found that that point, the style started to emerge a little bit, which was, it had a lot of that cartoonist in it. Some of my objects, and some of my people looked a little Don Martin-like from "Mad Magazine," and people were like, "Oh, that's funny." But there were many drawings over the course of two days that might've been 8 or 10, which was kind of fast stuff. And I realized, man, I'm kind of gassed at drawing, you know?

But I went home and they did ask to ask me to do some buttoned-up, cleaned-up versions. And I still have that set of 10 or 12 that were fun to do, live in the room. And it really helped the team look at all the ideas and go, "I see all the components and you really characterized it, get rid of this one, we'll keep that one.

And my friend who organized the session said they, they loved it And it was, you know, better than they thought. And it was a lot of people who had their hand in it. But me playing this little—it was like an improv, I played in bands in high school where you'd show up with your guitar with a bunch of strangers. And they're like, "Hey—"

MR: Ladies and gentlemen.

GK: "—you don't walk this way by Aerosmith." And it's like, enough, and boom, you're off, you go. So it was sort of a, a jam session using sketchnoting and it was one of those moments where I thought, "Okay, I got a new arrow in the quiver, and it's a pretty sharp one and a pretty cool one at a time when there was growing need for it.

So the agencies that I worked with, they had also had like, "Hey, we got this, you know, different way of doing things." So I started to do every meeting like kickoffs and immersions and presentations, and even strategy meetings where I became a little bit of the clunky monkey with the symbols where I would come out and they're like, "Do that thing. "

And then years went by and I realized this is an extension of all the things I did early on, and now a market had been created for it. Again, I'll take this opportunity to thank you for a lot of what you put out that did a lot of the heavy lifting.

MR: Oh, thanks. Well, I think there were a lot of other people doing it too. And graphic recording, which is more of that large scale, in the front of the room stuff, existed since the '70s with David Sibbet, some others.

GK: The Grove.

MR: The Grove. Yeah. And some others MG Taylor, I think Matt, and Gail Taylor were doing it. They were also part of that early way before.

GK: Yeah.

MR: You know, in my experience, I didn't know that graphic recording was a thing. I stumbled into and invented the name sketchnoting and practiced it just 'cause it made sense to me. I didn't know if anybody else could apply it. It was just totally me making sense out of note-taking because it wasn't working. And then come to find out, hey, all the concepts that seemed really logical to me is the same stuff that these people standing in front of rooms getting paid to do the work are doing.

And so, then I got involved with many of the people in that community. So now I'm connected to that community. So there's been a lot of people, I think, over time, that have been slowly building that wall. And there's lots of people now that enter the business or the space, or the community, wherever you wanna call it. And there's a huge wall built that you can walk on. A bridge, somebody built this bridge, but it took, you know, 10, 15 years of work to put that up.

GK: Yeah, exactly. Right. And the other observation, which was a moment was, I think during COVID we're, I mean, globally, all kind of stuck in place, in homes and communities started to pop up and people, and it was critical that people chose to do that, is that people started sharing. And I started to see these similar things to what I was doing, but way different. And something that I could be inspired by coming from people in Italy, in Finland, and in the UK.

And all of a sudden, without noticing, a year and a half later, I am connected to and sharing and just chatting to people throughout Europe and various other places that there's a bit of a kinship there that otherwise, you know, again, for me, when you work at different agencies and things, you get a little focused just on what you're doing and who you're doing it with. And now there's such a community out there where there's always something new to learn.

And I think we all learn that a while ago, is continuing to learn, keeps you plugged in, keep you relevant and there's always a new perspective to learn something by, and I could look at some people's work and going, "Wow, that is so much in the way that works for them. I could never do it that way, but I really like how maybe the mechanics of it is something that can apply to my own thing."

And then the great thing is that most of the people that I've been in touch with, they're like, happy, go, "Yeah, I'm glad something clicked for you and go and use it." And now I'm adapting different tools and templates for branding assignments. And now, I mean, I'm sure is some of the work of Dave Gray and Sunni with Gamestorming.

MR: Yeah.

GK: There were times where, and prior to seeing Gamestorming, I just realized I'm just having fun and upfront and drawing these funny little templates and asking people to put post-Its on this cartoon head of an empathy map before I knew what an empathy map was.

MR: Right. Right.

GK: And I realized that's a whole nother layer of this cartoonist turned brand guy that somehow made meetings more enjoyable and clients would be like that, "That wasn't even work. That was fun." And I thought, "Okay, that's I something I'd like to hear."

MR: It's pretty cool.

GK: Yeah. And it was just, again, a adapting some of those muscles that got built up and some of the other muscles that were deliberately built up in terms of advertising and branding. But it's been an interesting journey, and one that it was not prescribed, you know, I backed into a lot of different environments. The new product thing was just really something that through circumstances that ad agency wanted to get into new products. And I wound up being one of the people that wound up working in that part of the agency, and thought that was no dumb luck. That was really a cool break.

MR: Yeah. Well, I think, on the flip side, you prepared yourself by doing all this work as a kid and continuing, of course, you had encouragement like by your teacher in high school, but you were doing it because it made sense to you, and you were putting in the hours doing it in meetings for yourself, then called before the group to do it, and they really gave you feedback.

So all this prep put you in the position. Like, so had you not been doing that and you had the opportunity to be a part of that product group, you probably may not have gotten the job at least not to do that. Or maybe not at all. I don't know, right. Because you had this skill that was unique that you could bring to the table, and obviously it was the people that decided maybe you should be part of that had seen it in practice in the past. So everything's sort of built on top of the next thing.

GK: I think that's true. I was lucky in some of those respects where it was as much of a surprise or an epiphany to the people around me as it was to me. And just in a very, I think basic sense you're adding value that maybe isn't everywhere. I think a lot of the people I've met and yourself included, it's an interesting package of talents, you know? I think it's just not something you see in classified ads.

You become an amalgam of your experience and your talents and it makes you, you. And I think if you could find a group that appreciates that and really feeds it which I had the opportunity to work at a branding agency over a decade where they kept feeding me more opportunity to do that it's about growth. I think I'm happiest when I'm growing.

MR: Yeah. I agree. I think so too. Well, this has been great. It's been really fun to see your progression to where you're at now and how you're using all this—all the things that you've built, they don't go away. They just become useful at different points in the project, right. So, That's pretty cool.

I'm really curious now if we switch over from the work, your background, and how you got here. What are the tools that you like to use? We always do this with every guest. I discover new stuff all the time. And I thought I'd seen everything. So I love this part of it because there's like, "Oh, I'd never heard of that pen, or that notebook or that something.

GK: Yeah. I wish I could bring more discovery to it, but in terms of the transition from analog to digital, I'm a bit of a work in progress. Because I still love—and maybe it has a lot to do with the nature of the work was always show up. And it has changed since COVID where there's mural and it's different. But over those years of development working with markers and paper, I think it was just, you know, I love the feel of a line.

I have a lot of cartoonist friends 'cause I've been doing this cartoon strip for many years now, and I have a lot of cartoon friends, and they're still like, "Man, you still dip a quill pen in ink." And then there's one or two were that I still know that are There's nothing like a feel of that line. But, you know, a lot of the tablets now and the digital tools, so I'm doing my best and I found some coaches to move me there.

But I'm one of those types, particularly with being very mobile and working in a place where it's just coffee shops and other places, I like being able to walk in and buy tools from Rite Aid. Whether it's a nice gel pen or a—I have a friend, Rob Armstrong, who does jumpstart very successful long running strip. He still hand draws all his strips with a Paper M1ate pen.

MR: Really.

GK: Yeah. And some people are like, "That would take forever." I think it's a call you make, but I do love the times I've dabbled and toyed with, you know, iPads and things, but I need to do some work on the digital side. You may have found this too, but there were stores in the past, there was an art store called Pearl on the East Coast, these superstore, you know, where I can get lost.

MR: Lost in there for a day. Right.

GK: I'm buying pens and paper, and there's one in Philadelphia, which I'm not far from, called BLICK.

MR: Yeah, BLICK.

GK: And BLICK is one of the remaining super stores. I like Copic. I'm a fan of that. There's a couple others I think Japanese made that has a really fine brush to it where you can—I love varying lines and creating some depth. But my tools are what they have been for years. I would even turn it around and say, your tools, what do you recommend digitally? I mean, is it Wacom? I mean, where are you at in the whole transition to digital?

MR: Yeah. Well, I would say just understanding that you're someone who's mobile, and I'm a mobile person too. I think the iPad and the pencil is pretty great. The resolution with the pencil and the screen is good. I recommend some kind of a screen cover. I like Paperlike, which has got little patterns that are printed or embedded in the plastic. Not only does it make it matte so it's not shiny, but it also provides a paper-like texture, hence the name.

GK: Yeah. That's really key to know. I'd have to even go back and get that again once this gets out because the times that I have toyed with things, it's a little tricky, it feels like you're, you're drawing on a glass surface. I have other daily strip friends who do comics and go, "I couldn't go back to that because my process is so quick, and now I can knock work out a lot faster." Their production approach is vastly different. Which I can understand where I have some shopping to do and figure out what I'm most comfortable with, but I'm in the middle of it. I have an iPad now that I toy with, but I don't actually do work on yet.

MR: In production. Okay.

GK: Yeah. Latex Syndicate does my coloring and that kind of thing.

MR: Okay. There's a few apps that you might consider. Procreate is popular with lots of people. It's really aimed at art. It's got layering like Photoshop. You can choose different brushes and colors and you can record it and have it animated. There's all kinds of power in there. If you need to edit your lines, if you want vectors like Adobe Illustrator, there's a couple of tools. One is called Concepts who sponsors the podcast.

GK: Yeah. I think I've seen that.

MR: Where you have different brushes and such. But then you can grab the points just like in Illustrator and move things around. You can select whole chunks and change to a different brush and it flips. Adobe Fresco is another tool that does both pixels and vectors in the same application. So that's another one to play with. And that's a variety of other ones.

Some people who are really doing more note-taking than art, lean toward other tools. There's lots of really great note-taking tools, Goodnotes and Noteshelf and even Apple's Notes is pretty decent. It supports the pencil. There are some that are more note-oriented. If you need the organization and the structure of notes and to be able to search and all that, then that might be the better path.

And then there's stuff that fits in between like I use a tool called Paper by WeTransfer. It's super old. It's designed when the iPad first came out. What I like about it is it's very limited. So I can't change the screen size. There's no layers. There's limited tools and the tools set are limited sizes. The colors are adaptable. But I kind of like the constraints.

And what I've found is I've invested so much time using it that if I need to knock out an idea quickly, I just go to that tool 'cause I know it so well. I know where all the parts are. I know what it's gonna achieve. I know how to achieve them. For me, it works really well. But I also use Procreate for illustration work. 'cause It's got benefits of resolution and layers and undo and other features.

So I think you almost need to take a little little tour on each one and see which one fits. And there might be need, I believe, in multiple tools, because some projects require different expectations. So if you need to make something that needs to be zoomed up to a billboard, well, you probably wanna use a Vector tool because procreates gonna pixel out at some point, even if—unless you build the canvas to be big enough, which is one approach. The other approach is to go, you know, resolution-independent with Concepts or Fresco, and then you could scale. So that'd be my list for you.

GK: All good stuff. No, that's a great one. I'm gonna have to pull that off because a near-term goal I set for myself is to really get set and getting that comfort level because a lot of my cartoonist friends use the same type of a setup. And I dabbled with there. So I'm gonna have to you know, step into this century.

MR: I think it's important for you to find what works for you. So even if they use something else, who cares? Like, if it works for you, you know this already.

GK: Yeah. I love the point you made that if you have real stuff to that you're accountable for, you have something that's familiar and reliable and you know what you're getting into, and then create experiment time to try some other things. But that would be my ideal setup is to have my go-to.

MR: Yeah. I think the other thing that works for me, and this isn't true for everybody, but it might, is I need a real project to work on. When I wanted to use Procreate, I had a big illustration project and I said, "All right, I gotta use this. I gotta figure it out." I forced myself to sit down and build the templates and choose the different inks and sizes, and I set it all up, and then I forced myself to do a project with it. And that was a good solution. For me, I learn 'em as much as I can, and then there's a point which I have to flip over and use it, and then they start to make sense together, so.

GK: Yeah. No, that's, that's good advice.

MR: Yeah. Going back to your analog tools, I'm kind of curious if you have any specific ones that if you go to the Rite Aid, are there certain pens or notebooks or anything that you tend to work with? Do you have any notebooks that you like? Is there a certain gel pen brand that you prefer if you can get it?

GK: I think in terms of paper it, as long as I can remember, it's always been the—oh man, what's the—it escapes me at the moment. I don't wanna say Valore, but, so that's not—

MR: Like Parchment paper, something like that?

GK: No, it's, it's a little heavier weight paper, but it's in Michael's is another place that I go. it's just—vellum. Thank you.

MR: Vellum. Yeah.

GK: Whatever part of my brain say Valore. It's not Valore, it's Vellum, but it's Bristol Vellum. The Vellum has that nice tooth to the line. And I still love to see the interplay between a line and a piece of paper and scan it. Whenever I see my strips, the weekly strip I look at, and it's just like, I remember that line. It's a little obsessive. But I do the Copic pens of a lot of variety, but it's a good firm. Its tip doesn't mash.

MR: Lays on top of that Bristol Vellum as well.

GK: Yeah. And you could lean in and that's good. And then there's—is it Tubo? I forget. It's a Japanese pen. They sell 'em in too, and then I go through them like whenever I see them, I buy 'em. But they're mostly one's a firm paint or a brush tip. The other one's a little more of a traditional paint or a brush I should say. But that's usually in the Michaels or the BLICK. This is from Rob, you know, he does a lot of his lettering with a Paper Mate pen.

MR: Paper Mate Flair.

GK: Yeah. The Flair, it's like the Chuck Tailors of sneakers of mark making. I mean, it's just like tie up the Chucks and put 'em on, you know, and whenever I'm in Rite Aid or CVS, it's just like, "Okay, buy a couple things. We need, you know, milk, bread, Paper Mates."

MR: Paper Mates.

GK: And I always have those. I'm thankful that they don't discontinue that. I have huge, you know, just boxes of pens and I'm not loyal to, you know, other than what the ones that I've mentioned, because they've served me well. I do need to experiment and push out. But those are the Copic and the Paper Mate.

MR: Simple tool set. Yeah.

GK: Yeah. That's what I use for the strip. And my strip, I do on the vellum. I just scan them, clean them up, and send it to the syndicate. I work with King Features, and King Features does all the colorizing, and they distribute it to the papers and they send me the finish and it's always like Christmas. I send them these little black and white comics, and then they send me the archives of all the colorized.

The strip I do a strip called Out On The Limb, and it's been like 30 years with King. And it's always that same relationship as I send them the finished black and white, and they colorize it. All my other friends are like, I still use my digital 'cause I wanna color it the way I want to. I should get used to that, but I love that King does that for me, and it's a nice joint relationship for many years now.

MR: Yeah. It's worked for a long time. Maybe it doesn't need to be changed at all.

GK: Yeah. It will eventually. At least being able to control that and send. I'm sure they wouldn't be mad if their production team in Orlando goes, "Oh, he's gonna do color. We don't have to do that anymore."

MR: Yeah. Thankfully.

GK: "It took forever." So, we'll see.

MR: Interesting. So that makes me curious, since you're a cartoonist and you continue to be for a long period of time, what I think could be interesting to answer would be how do you deal with, every week you've gotta come up with an idea. Where do you get your ideas from? How do you cook up those? Are they just stuff that you encounter and you put 'em away somewhere? Do you have a tool or a notebook where you write things down? Like how do you manage that stuff?

GK: It's really interesting, A lot of the same muscles. It's like listening and observing. Somewhere, somebody said this and it always stuck, which is, "You gotta do A, B, C. Always be capturing." So wherever I am, and now with iPhones, if I see an absurd notion in the world, I put it in the phone. And then I have a bit of a writing routine where Sunday nights I often go, "Okay, let me see this culmination of photos and post-its and backs of envelopes."

The world is great stimulus for ideas. And sometimes I'll just stockpile them and then sit down and process it. And there was an incident where, I'm sure you've noticed is that I was walking through Barnes and Noble and went through like the top 10 books, often business books. So the top 10 business books, six out of the 10 business books had the F-bomb in it.

Suddenly, major business books all have you know, F-words, we'll keep it at that. And I just thought, "What is that?" And then my mind started to play with that whole reality. And a cartoon happened where there was a woman—I took it out of the bookstore and put it into the standard library and saw a little librarian with a bit of a potty mouth talking to somebody who was directing them to the business book of the section, which is essentially, the cartoon was like, "Hey, it's okay. Let's everyone—just F-away, man. It's accepted."

Because I just thought, wow, when did this this—people are now writing books to see if they could top someone else. So that was just an example of ideas happen because I just always keep one hand free. And I heard recently, there's a great quote by Neil Simon, and he said, he said it for comedy writers, but I think it's true of cartoonists, but also anyone who's creative.

And Neil Simon said, "Comedy writers are two-headed monsters. One head is like everybody else. They go to the DMV, they go to Rite Aid, they put gas in the car. That's the one head. The other head is the one that kind of rises up and looks around and notices all the things around that other head and the rest of the body." And that's why that one really spoke to me because my wife will be one saying, you know, we're at this parent-teacher night, and my mind is like, wow. And she's like, "Earth to Gary, can you kind of dial back in here into this parent-teacher night?"

So part of that is I do have that second head kind of out there looking for odd connections to make. And, you know, I'm hoping it never stops, but I'm always looking and always capturing stuff I can maybe use later. And many times it's writing it down in a small notebook and other times with the laptop. And now with the phone, that's the one piece of digital that I've become really relying on is photos and notes to myself, because it is true, you forget those epiphanies, you know?

And there are times where I'll read a note, much like an old "Seinfeld" episode with a note he put on his next to his bed, where he couldn't decipher what it was he wrote at 2:00 in the morning. There are times where I can't make sense out of a note, but I still feel good having taken the note. Because there are times that some of the best ideas come from other people and just being in the right place. And that's why many of my coworkers coming out of those meetings that I described earlier, once they see me write something, they're like, "You didn't write that." When I said, "Right. I'm not gonna be an inspiration for a cartoon."

And many times, they had, and I share it with them, but there'd be just brilliance that are far beyond what I'm thinking at that time. And I would just write something down and later the sweetest little gag and I'd often share it with them. And going back to my science teacher, they're happy to get it. And every single day, and particularly the world we live in now, there's just so much, to your point, you know constantly making new connections. And that's why I think, you know, there's always stuff to have fun with and build ideas around. So it's paying attention.

MR: Well, let's shift into tips. I always frame it that someone's listening their individual thinking, but they feel a little bit like they're in a rut or hit a plateau. They just need some inspiration. What would be three things that you would tell them practical or, you know, mental suggestions to help them break out of that rut or just move forward?

GK: This isn't too long ago myself, where I start to feel like it's a bit of a rut and also a rut, but also sometimes when you transition because I moved from agency life into now my own consultancy, which it's a different world and it's a different metabolism almost. I mean, it's just different. And I think that led me to this idea of the tip is sometimes just continue to—I'll use my case of, of writing and drawing and things, is to create and share.

I mean, there are so many people that—I'm sure yourself and I know people like Austin Cleon has a book or two out there. It's just like, just put it out and let that be a source of conversation. And during that time when I started to expand some of the community with sketchnoters, I would just do things, you know, whether it was listening to a particular podcast, and I just would draw it and say, here's something I did. And it turned out to be something on LinkedIn where I started to share more, and I heard back more, and I got feedback.

So whenever you're stuck put something out. And that's the beauty right now of even LinkedIn. If there are people that you admire or people that whose opinion, you'd appreciate, you know, share something and say, "There's something I'm working, I'd love to get your thoughts." And, you know, no harm could come from doing, creating something and putting it out, and sharing it. I mean, you might get, you know, feedback that people sometimes aren't always kind.

But I think by and large the tip would be to just, you know, create every day and put it out there and start conversations with it. And there were times where I do, and I call it the Kopious notes now 'cause my name is Kopervas. So I will listen to a podcast or something of—an example of if I was stuck again, I'm not generating anything anymore, I will listen to a podcast or something.

A friend of mine who wrote for Forbes interviewed Brian Grazer. And it had to do with this, he was launching a book called "The Curious Mind." And my friend Steve said, here, could you just listen to this interview that I recorded and can you give me some your takeaway on it? I listened to it and sketchnoted the whole thing, and sent it to him. And he sent it to Brian Grazer, who is in the process of a couple other things with this writer friend of mine.

But in doing that sketchnoting, I learned a ton about this idea of I'll cut to the chase on that one is that Brian Grazer has curious conversations from his book. Every two weeks he talks to someone who has nothing to do with Hollywood or directing or producing to learn something. Maybe a long way around to the other idea of do things and share is if there's something you wanna learn, draw it.

Because there's that eye-hand thing is that your mind learns when you, you draw it. And it turns out that many of that type of thing, I sent work to authors or even podcasts that guests and they loved it. And we had relationship of, whether it's LinkedIn or whatever of "send me more."

I think if I'm stuck, I try to engage new people with work I've done and see where it goes. 'Cause In some cases it's led to consulting gigs. There was two authors that wrote a book, and I was taken by it and I did a quick sketchnote for each of the chapters—or actually for just one of the chapters. And they hired me to do that for all of their chapters.

MR: Wow. That's cool. Yeah.

GK: Ruts are just kind of like a pause and it's like, "Okay, now what?" When I get to that point when I'm stuck, it usually means I'm at a pause of some sort so I need an interaction with somebody.

MR: You need a reason to move forward, I guess. Right.

GK: And someone will inspire it or someone will validate something I've been thinking about. And I think I've learned to rely on others to get me through these little pauses and ruts.

MR: If I were to re restate those, I guess the first one I heard was if you're in a rut, do something and share it.

GK: Yes.

MR: The second is, if you wanna learn something, draw it because you have to process the information to understand it. And then the third would be share your work with the people who inspired you. So like a podcast guest, an author, and you never know where that interaction might lead. If anything, you'll just have their appreciation. And all those three things in a row is you've done something to move forward, you've learned something new and you've made an interaction. That's a really great combination of things.

GK: And I love the distillation on that, Mike. Thank you. And I think the other, I don't know, maybe it's a wrapping for all of it that I have found whenever I get stuck in a crossroads, whatever, how you wanna describe it, to do some of those things, but it really helps to just get on someone else's radar. And I found whether it was from other brand consultants or those sketchnoters in other parts of the world, get on other people's radar, they get on your radar, and all of a sudden, I find myself not stuck as much because because of that happening to me.

So I think there's something about that. And I think we live in a time now where it's much easier to get on other people's radars because we have such access now, whether it's Instagram or LinkedIn is very big from a business standpoint. So use it.

MR: Yeah. Those are great tips. Thanks. So to wrap the show up, I just ask where people can find you and your work so they can connect with you, so they can see what you do, they can check out your comic strip, see your work that you do.

GK: Yeah, no, that's great. I think I'm most active on LinkedIn. That's where I do a lot of posting and it does have a bit of a business centered approach to it. But I put a lot of things there 'cause So many of my things tie to business. So LinkedIn is one. Facebook is a little more some fun stuff there as well. And at Kopious Notes on Instagram. I've been not pushing that as much. And maybe when this does get out and is live, I will have gotten back on that. But Kopious Notes is where I'm at in Instagram.

And same idea is work in progress on garykopervas.com is a site that I've neglected, but there's a lot of my early cartoons there. And that's a either last quarter or first quarter of this year where that's gonna get reinvigorated perhaps.

MR: Revamped.

GK: Yeah.

MR: Nice. Well, that's great. We'll either find those links and put 'em in the show notes, or as we follow up after this interview, maybe you can send me things you wanna make sure we include. So for those that are listening, check out the show notes. We try to make our show notes pretty extensive, and we include transcription of the discussion so if you're a reader, you can read while you listen. So we've got lots of options for you. And we're really happy to have you on, Gary. This has been a long time coming and I'm so glad that you came on the show and you just fit right into our community, just so well.

GK: Yeah. Thanks so much. It was a real pleasure. And as you say, I was really waiting for this for some time, and it was awesome. So thanks for having me and have a great weekend.

MR: Yeah. Well, thanks for all that you do, and for anybody listening or watching, it's another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until next time, talk to you soon.

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Mike teaches recorded, live, and in-person workshops to accelerate your sketchnoting practice and provides personalized coaching for your specific visual-thinking challenges.

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In this episode, Ashton Rodenhiser shares her mission to teach sketchnoting skills to students and professionals so they can use doodling and drawing as their best thinking and learning tools.

Sponsored by Concepts

This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android.

Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework.

Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting.

SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try.

Running Order

• Intro
• Welcome
• Who is Ashton?
• Origin Story
• Ashton’s current work
• Sponsor: Concepts
• Tips
• Tools
• Where to find Ashton
• Outro

Links

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Ashton’s Website
• Ashton’s Website
• Ashton on Twitter
• Ashton on Instagram
• Ashton on Facebook
• Ashton on Youtube
• Ashton on Pinterest
• Ashton on TikTok
• Ashton on LinkedIn
• Book: Beginner's Guide to Sketchnoting
• Free video lesson
• IFVP Conference
• Find Your Artistic Voice by Lisa Congdon
• Dario Paniagua

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Sketcher marker
• Neuland Bullet tip outliner
• Posca pens
• Microsoft Surface Pro
• Sketchbook Pro
• Document camera

Tips

1. However you need to create it, do it.
2. Cliches are okay.
3. Don't get into the comparing mode.
4. When you are intimidated, you can instead flip it and turn it into inspiration.
5. Have clean nice letters.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro

Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast

You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source.

Support the Podcast

To support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with Ashton. Ashton Rodenhiser, how are you today?

Ashton Rodenhiser: I'm doing so well, Mike. Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

MR: It's so great to have you on. We've had fits and starts trying to get this recorded and we finally did it, so I'm excited. And so looking forward to talking with you and sharing your story with everyone. So why don't we just jump right in? Tell us who you are and what you do.

AR: Yeah. So I am based in Canada, on the East Coast of Canada. You know, being a mother is pretty important to me, so I always like to mention that. I have three small children between the ages of 5 and 10. I felt like growing up I really wanted to be an artist, but it was like never an option 'cause there was just so much negative rhetoric in my home, in my community about, you know, the lack of art opportunities out there. I put that in a diplomatic way.

And so, I really struggled even though I did really well in school, I really did not know what I "wanted to be when I grew up." And I fell into a role as a facilitator. I did that for a couple of years, and that's how I learned about graphic facilitation and kind of where I am today. That was 10 years ago, this month, fall of 2013. It's really easy for me to remember because it was the longest I'd left my six-month-old at the time. It was a whole day to take a graphic facilitation course.

I had never even seen it before, but I was like, "This is the best thing ever," where I was able to take my experience as a facilitator and my love for all things creative and mash them together. And then I was facilitating a group at the time and luckily, they were just so great and easygoing. I just threw some paper on the wall and started drawing and I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. It was horrible. But I still have that picture to this day and share it often actually as like, "This was my first one, look how bad it was."

And you know, I put it away for a few months and then I brought it out after a while and I looked at it and I was like, "Whoa, I can remember so much from this." It took it from, oh, this is kind of fun and cool and neat to, whoa, this is an actually a powerful thing. This is a way to help navigate that learning and that experience. So doing it in the moment was fun and great, but it was more so about that like after effect for me when I brought it out later and reflected on it and was like, this is more than what I thought it was, in a way.

Then it was at that point that I was like, I might like this. This seems like actually helpful. So maybe I will do this more 'cause it's a good time and it's actually helpful. So, fast forward a little bit. I did, you know, a little bit for those first few years and I actually attended the IFVP Conference in Austin, Texas in 2015. And I was a scholarship recipient for that. There's no way I would've been able to go if I hadn't received that. So, very grateful to that opportunity to this day.

And I went with a mission in mind. I was like," I'm gonna go and just try to soak up as much as I can. And when I leave, I'm gonna make a decision." Like this is gonna be just like a side hobby that I'll do when people ask me to. Or I'm gonna take this like seriously as a business and I'm gonna try to do it. And obviously, you know, the answer to that question. But yeah, it was a few months after that, after I had my second child that I started building a business around graphic recording, graphic facilitation, live illustration. Yeah.

MR: You know, it's interesting you said that it took you a while putting away the work to see your own value in it later. You looked at it like, "Wow, this is really helpful. I remember a lot of the detail because of the work I did." So I think what you were sort of seeing was, I think was a delayed reaction to what the people in the rooms saw.

AR: Right. Yeah.

MR: 'Cause You know, a lot of times we look back at the work we do and we think, "In light of what I do now, that's so terrible. It was so bad." But then, you know, to the people in the moment who experienced it, for them it was, you know, mind blowing because they'd never seen anything like that. And it was helpful regardless of what it looked like. It brings you back to like, it's a lot more of the action of the doing and a whole lot less on the beauty of it. Functionality of it is way more valuable now. Of course, it's good if you can make it look really beautiful. I mean, that's always nice.

AR: That's a bonus, definitely.

MR: But it reminds you that the bones of this stuff that we do is really about the functionality of the work we're doing. And then if we can layer on beauty and layout and all these things on top of it, that just adds another layer to it and it makes it even more enjoyable for both you and for the recipient. Anyway, that struck me when you brought that out.

'Cause I've been thinking about that too. I've looked at some really old sketchnotes that I did way back in 2007, was like, "Compared to what I do now, these are very rudimentary and basic." But I needed to start somewhere. And even those, the bones of them were valuable regardless of if they were exactly what I would've wanted now. I mean, at the time I was okay with it, obviously. So, interesting.

AR: Yeah, No, I love that. I love that for sure.

MR: Well, I'm curious, you mentioned coming from Eastern Canada and you talked about the scholarship to go to Austin, which I can imagine that trip was not cheap and that scholarship probably helped. So tell us your origin story. How did you—you gave us hints to it, you went to this event and made that decision. Fill us some more detail about, how were you as a little girl that brought you to the point at Austin, right? Like, were you always drawing, like, all that stuff?

Because I too faced a thing where my dad sat me down and said, "Mike, you can't make money in art. You should find another career path." And I went into printing. And through printing, I found that design was actually a path I could take, which was related. So I'd love to hear your little girl to Austin story, and then I'd love to hear more detail about building that business and how did you come to where you're now?

AR: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I guess, I try to do a overview, but yeah, I can dive into it a bit more. I've always been very creative, very self-taught. I've never really taken an art class in my life. I call myself a dabbler. So name a medium, I've probably tried it. Either I tried it for a week or I tried it for a year. I sold painted rocks as a child at craft fairs.

So I guess I didn't realize I was a bit entrepreneurial until I started a business and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I guess I have done entrepreneurial things throughout my life." And it was funny that I also was connected to something creative. So I've always been really fascinated in different mediums, but I didn't actually spend a whole lot of time drawing. I painted and did things like that, but I didn't actually draw pictures a lot.

I had a few, how to draw cats, how to draw some things, but I didn't have a lot of patience for building the skill of drawing. The art forms that I would find were more instant gratification. I wanted to paint a picture in an hour. I didn't wanna paint a picture over a series of months. So I didn't realize until a few years ago that I think my impatience is actually one of the things that is kind of, I feel like with sketchnoting and live illustration and all that is actually a beautiful fit for me because you have the timeframe and you're like, "All right, it's a half an hour, it's done. Or it's an hour, it's done. Or it's a day, it's done."

I've always been very creative, but just doing my own thing, self-taught, try different things. If anything, I learned many different instruments. Learning how to play the bagpipes right now, just for fun, you know. So I took lessons for things like that. But I think, like I said earlier, I didn't even really consider being an artist because it was just the aura.

No one really sat me down, like, your experience and said, "You can't do that. That's not gonna work out for you." It was just the stories I would hear of people saying, "Oh, that kid, are you going to art school, good luck with that." And I'm like, "Well, I don't want that for me." You know. And at the time, the only thing that I had considered was being a teacher 'cause I'd always really loved kids.

I graduated high school around the recession, 2008 recession. And so it was a hard time to decide what to do after high school because no matter what you did, no one had jobs. Around here anyways, at that time there was a lot of people graduating teacher college and not having work. So I felt like that was going to be a waste of time if I go and spend all this time doing this education and then it doesn't work out.

So I pursued an early childhood education to work with these little kids. And that's when I got a job at a nonprofit. I moved to the city thinking that I might be a sign language interpreter. So I started taking all the prerequisites to do that. And that's what I went to the city for. Ended up there being there for a few years because I loved this job at this nonprofit where I started to learn about community development and facilitation. And that's how I got into that.

But still, I painted and I did a few things, you know, throughout my life, but I definitely had, you know, dips and lulls, you know, when I was on a very strict budget trying to pay back my student loan. I had a craft budget of $20 a week that I would allow myself to go and buy art supplies. And it was like the highlight of my week, and I would just craft all the rest of the week. But yeah, it was just all over the place in terms of just the things that we would do for fun.

That's how I met my husband in high school, I was knitting in the library. And then, I just felt like when I found this work, it was this beautiful coming together of the things that I loved about facilitation and the listening and the thinking 'cause I felt like I always wanted to have a job where I wanted to help people. But when you're younger, the notion of helping people are, you know, you have to be a doctor or something like that. Well, how am I supposed to help people if I don't wanna be a doctor or new nurse or something like that.

And when I found facilitation and in this world with those two coming together, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I could like help people. I could help people learn and engage." And I really fell in love with group process with facilitation, creating a safe space and allowing them to feel heard. And it's not about me imposing my ideas or my knowledge, it's really about them.

And I was like, this is the best 'cause You don't need to know anything. You know, I joke about that with teachers. But it's this beautiful space to be able to create for people. And then when I started experiencing doing it in the graphical way, I was like, this is really, really cool and I wanna do more of it. Yeah.

MR: It sort of added that craft or that creative layer that had been missing, it seems like to me.

AR: Yeah, definitely.

MR: So you had all the facilitation skills and what this added was the creative part of you then could be turned on and be active too, right? And just not all business.

AR: Yeah. And I think that's why—I don't know if I didn't have the experience as the facilitation person first, I don't know what the transition would've been like. I feel like because I had my listening and my thinking skills honed over a few years, the adding the visual element wasn't as scary, I think as it might be for others who are like, "Now I have to, you know, listen and think and draw. So I have to like, develop all these skills."

Whereas like, I had the listening and the thinking skills, I had been developing that already, adding in the drawing, like, so then I was able to focus more those early years on the drawing part because I was the listening and thinking was a bit more intuitive. You know, 'cause the way I would describe to people is, as a facilitator, you're listening and thinking, and you're feeding back in words.

And now I can listen and think and feedback in pictures, right? So, I don't think it was as big of a jump coming from that space because I'm like, "I can learn the drawing skills. I can learn over time." I didn't really put a whole lot of pressure on myself in the beginning. I just learned some basic drawings. I joke with people that I basically drew a light bulb on every single graphic I did for three years because I'm like, "I know how to draw a light bulb." You know what I mean?

I think I just allowed myself to know that I would develop those skills over time if I just kept at it and that the listening and the thinking would really pull me through. Because even if it's mostly words and little drawings there, those few years, the content is always gonna be so important, especially when you're in a room with people and allowing them to feel valued and heard. If you throw a few graphics in there, you know, pretty basic when you're starting, it doesn't really matter, right?

And sometimes when I'm teaching and talking with people about it, I'm like, you know, "That will come over time. Just be patient with yourself." And, you know, a lot of times people—this is still really new and they don't have anything to compare it to, which is amazing. So if you just throw some paper on a wall and do it, it's gonna be amazing no matter what. You know what I mean?

MR: Right.

AR: It just is opening that door and like, they don't know that other people exist in the world who have been doing it longer and maybe it looks like, "prettier." Like, it doesn't matter. And sometimes it's needs to be messy. 'Cause I tell people like, conversations are messy, so sometimes the graphic's gonna be messy. And that's just what it is, you know?

MR: Yeah. Comes back to our earlier discussion about what's the most important it's the bones of the value of being in the room together, being heard, capturing something.

AR: Exactly. Yeah.

MR: It's a good enough graphic. You know, in my experience as designer, especially when I do concept work with people, 'cause that's really what I do, whether it's illustration, I used to do logo and icon design, the rougher the sketches the better because then they feel like they have a say in it, they have a part in it, they can see, you know, there's room to maneuver a little bit.

So in some ways, the messier sketches are actually more attractive, weirdly enough, in a process environment, because the focus is on the process. And then eventually, as long as you're in a boat—you know, if you're in a sailboat, which I've been on, you know, you're not going in a straight line. You're catching the wind one way, and you're tacking back and forth, but you're going toward a final destination, right. You're not just going in a straight line like you can in a motorboat. Even in a motorboat, honestly, they're floating around a little bit too, right.

So if you think about that as a metaphor, it's being by water, right? So it's like, but ultimately you're gonna get to Nova Scotia, right? You're gonna come in to that point, it's just like the way you get there is gonna maybe be messy for a while. So if you think of it that way, you know, you're moving towards a destination and you know, it's gonna have its ups and downs, but everybody knows that we're gonna end up in the right place. That that's a great feeling.

AR: Yeah. I love that. That's a great analogy. I'm gonna use that.

MR: You steal it if you want to.

AR: Yes, I will. Thank you.

MR: Well, that's really cool. So tell us a little bit about the kind of work you're doing now. What is your ideal clients and is there someone you can share, you know, that you don't have any kind of agreements with that you're, that you can talk about? And then also, you have a book you've released. I want you to talk about that book, most definitely. So let's go in that order. Tell us a little bit about the work you do and then let's talk about your book.

AR: I usually spend my time doing graphic recording, graphic facilitation. The way that I like to define it is graphic recordings, more like the conference world. There's speakers. I do a lot of that. Like, that's probably the majority, right. And then there's the graphic facilitation world, which is what we talked a lot about so far, is finding myself in those situations where there's groups of people and you're helping them come to some decision or, you know, there's multiple voices.

So usually let's say like one voice or multiple voices. A room full of people having a conversation or a speaker on a stage. So lots of graphic recording, some graphic facilitation, would love to do more of it, but some of that. And I started teaching in person workshops, I think back in 2018, 2000 and something like that. Like pretty early on. And did some in-person things, and just did another one last week. But I hadn't done one in three years because you know, the world.

MR: Yeah. Yeah.

AR: And so, it was so exciting to get back in person because there's nothing better than, you know, helping people stand at a wall for the first time and make those marks. So, some of that. And then, yeah, released my "Beginner's Guide to Sketchnoting" book here just a few months ago. Because I was finding that a lot of people were saying to me all the time, "I would love to learn this skill. I wish you could follow me around, we record every meeting that I go to."

And I would say to people, you know, "It's like, not that hard. You could totally learn it." And they just brush you off. They're like, "No, no way. I could possibly." And I'm like, "But you could though, but you could." And so, I started this sort of journey process of putting this book together, which took about a year and a half and did beta reading and getting feedback from people. 'Cause with the idea of trying to make the concept of learning sketchnoting as accessible as possible. Really handholding people through that process.

We can talk a little more about that if you want to, but that's generally it. And so yeah, I have a little sketchnoting community and the book and stuff. So I'm just in this space now of really trying to just talk about, you know, helping people move through learning this.

And one area that I'm specifically focusing, and I'm trying to do some case studies this year, is like, with students in school and trying to get into some schools and do some case studies. And with a little bit of trouble, but I'm getting there. I'm getting there trying to build relationships and do the things there, because I think if we can—like my 10-year-old, I've been teaching her some things because I know that in her school, that's when they start teaching note taking.

So I don't know what it is like for other places in the world, but grade 5, age 10 is where they start to introduce note taking. So I was like, "Okay, well if this is when they're starting to introduce it, then maybe that's the age demographic or group that I need to be talking about."

Because I do have schools that have brought me in to teach like older grades, but I feel like if we could do it earlier as the foundation and then they can choose, they have multiple ways that they can do their note taking and do it right in the beginning instead of, you know, they started to have develop a way that they do it, and then a few years later you introduce this, then it might not come as naturally. So I'm trying to find that sweet spot right now and work with schools to see what that looks like trying to get that into part of their learning for note taking. Yeah.

MR: Well, I would guess having a book that's published certainly helps with getting in. That's helped me for sure. Who would you say is the main ideal reader for the book? Do you have in mind a group of people that the book is aimed to? Or is it more of a broad, anybody can read this book kind of thing?

AR: Yeah. It's definitely a broad, but more of someone who might have considered themselves creative at one point, maybe have a weird relationship with creativity, because I find I'm having more conversations about that these days where people are like, "Well, I'm not creative." I'm like, "But you are though. But you are. Maybe you don't draw and that's okay. But maybe you're really funny or maybe—"

MR: Some other space. Yeah.

AR: Yeah. Maybe you're a good storyteller, you know. So, I find it's more of the people that want to reengage with their creativity. And I feel like that's just, like I said, a lot of the conversation I'm having with people a lot lately, but they have this weird relationship maybe with drawing. Maybe they doodled a little bit, maybe they didn't, but they know that the way that they kind of learn traditional note taking just doesn't work for them. And they're trying to see what they can do to get back to adding a little bit more creativity into their learning space, right. And having to do that.

MR: How can they make it enjoyable?

AR: Exactly. So I find that that's the—you know, that plus trying to encourage students and kids to do as well. But in terms of my more adult audience, it seems to be—you know, so some of it's like, you know, English as a second language teachers that are trying to be able to explain concepts. And I work a lot in technology, so I end up having a lot of people in cybersecurity and things like that in my community, and they're trying to figure out how to be able to explain more technical concepts and things like that.

MR: That's pretty cool.

AR it is quite broad, but it's like, you know, the leap that people think is really scary and trying to make that not as scary 'cause just getting people to share their first one. Just do one, just do one sketchnote and share it, that seems to be the biggest leap for people. 'Cause once you do that first one, you're like, "Oh, that wasn't so scary." You know what I mean?

MR: Yeah.

AR: So it's more about like that type of person who's like, "Oh, I'd like to try this." And in my book, I don't talk about any theory, I just drop a little brain guy throughout it. Like, "Oh yeah, did you know this thing, and there's this research?" 'Cause I want it just to get right to it and get people to put pen to paper quickly as possible. Because that's one thing that really frustrates me about nonfiction books is that most of them, unfortunately, are idea books.

And I didn't want it to be a book like, "Sketchnoting is good, see you later." You know, be like, "Draw this thing, do this exercise." You know. And it's big and short enough that it is hopefully not overwhelming for people, you know? Like, it was twice as long and I just cut it and cut it and cut it. And then anything that I felt was a little bit advanced, I was just cut. I just like, nope. Or when I was doing my beta reading and people were getting confused, I was like, "Okay. Too advanced, cut it, cut it."

MR: Well, you know, save those things for your second book, I guess for the advanced students who move in part two, right. You can put those in a second edition. Or not a second edition, but another book for those who wanna proceed to level two.

AR: Yeah. Yeah. So I really wrote it in the sense of trying to handhold people through the process and to cut down that learning curve as much as I possibly can, because I feel like I was just encountering so many people that were like, "Oh, I could never do that." And I'm like, "But you could. You definitely could." And trying to show people in a really low barrier to entry, non-threatening way that that it's possible, right?

So, the first thing that I walk in through in the book is like, "Just draw a line. You did it." The book's very cheer leadery. I'm like, "You got this." You know. 'Cause I think what happens is people look at beautiful sketchnotes by yourself or me, and they're like, "Oh, I can never do that." You know, I'm like, "But you can't compare your beginning to my 10 plus years in, right?

MR: Right. I tell people that too.

AR: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I love it when people can see the—like, "This was my first one. This was my first one." And they can compare from that space rather than, "Oh, well, if they look at Ashton's, oh my God, I could never create that." And I'm like, you know, I try to tell people, I'm like, "But I've been doing this for so long. And I do so many." I think I recorded over 600 presentations just last year. So like, that's a lot.

MR: It's a lot of practice.

AR: That's a lot.

MR: Lots, yeah.

AR: That's a lot, you know. If you did 600 in a year, you'd be pretty good too. Like, maybe even better than mine. You know what I mean?

MR: Right. There might be something in you that we don't even know about because you haven't explored it. Right. But it's never fair to compare your first shot to my finished product after years and years of practice. It's not a fair comparison and it shouldn't be.

AR: Yeah. I wish I would've read this before I published my book, or I would've put it in it, but there's a book called "Find Your Artistic Voice by Lisa Congdon. And in it, she talks about the beginner's gap. And when I read it, I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is like exactly what I've been thinking about this whole time." But she put it in these concise, beautiful words, but there's where you wanna be, right? "I want my stuff to look like Ashton's or Mike's or whoever," right?

But then there's your skillset, and your skillset doesn't match where you wanna be. So there's this huge gap in between. So what happens is that, because they're like, "I want my skills to match this." But they don't, they don't close the gap. They don't do the practice and the work to get to the point where their skills are developed that it could look, you know, in their own style or in their own whatever, right.

That's where see and I get saddened by when people are at that stage in the very beginning, but they see where they wanna go, and they just stop before they even start trying. You know. They're like, "I can't, I'm never gonna be like that. I want my—" Or they'll try it and they'll be so unhappy with it because it doesn't match their expectation of reality in their mind, right. Like, "Oh, I want it to look like this and it didn't, so I give up." Right.

So, my part with trying to put this book together is like, how can I help close that gap just even a little bit and allow people to get a little bit of success so that they feel like then they can continue to develop their skills? 'Cause people ask me all the time, like, "How did you get to the point you are? And I'm like, "Just practice." Like, it's not a sexy answer, unfortunately.

MR: Yeah. Just kept going. Yeah.

AR: But I just did it and did it, and they were bad and they were messy and they were not beautiful. You know what I mean? But even though when I go back and I look at my earlier stuff and how messy, and they looked like they still served a purpose for the people or for myself. So it didn't really matter. Like we were talking about like, you know, sometimes the messier the better too, right?

MR: Mm-hmm.

AR: But I do teach aesthetics because people care about that. Because if I just said, "It doesn't matter what it looks." No one would do it. They'd be like, well, if it s mess—like I want it to look nice. So I definitely do teach that. But with trying to infuse "it doesn't matter" at the same time. It's okay if it's messy. Yeah.

MR: Sort of like, it's good enough for where you are now, and let's keep going. So it's like you have that far away goal of it needs to look like that thing, but I know that's gonna be difficult, but what I did today is good enough for a first step and for today and tomorrow I'll get a little tiny bit better, and the next day I'll get a little tiny bit better and then I'll backtrack and then I'll get back and get back to normal and, you know. Sort of like, no, if you let people know that it's gonna be a journey.

It's like setting expectations so there's not an expectation like, "Well, I'll do this for an hour and I'll be as good as someone who, you know, done 600 pieces in a year." That's not a fair comparison. So again, it's almost like resetting perspective around what's a reasonable expectation for you.

AR: Absolutely.

MR: That's what we're doing in a lot of ways, which is, I think it's good. That's good. Because there's a lot of places where that mindset is helpful, not just in the work we do. So, it's really cool.

AR: Yeah. I'm nervous to say this to you, Mike, but I will say I almost feel like my book might be a precursor to your book. There's a few things in there that are similar, but I don't know if you feel the same way, but feel it's a bit of the—

MR: Well, I'm a big believer in lots of books existing because I think there's a lot of voices that exist and not everybody is in the right place to hear just one book. And a lot of times a different person at a different time and a different way is the right solution for that person. So I'm a big believer in, hey there's a lot of people that don't do anything yet. We need a lot of books that reach in every direction.

So that very may well be that someone would maybe process through your book and then "I wanna go to the next level, or I wanna just see a different voice. Oh, I like how Mike does it. For me, that fits for me. I'm gonna follow that path." Or, "I'm gonna choose this other book because that makes sense to me." And I think that's good to have options 'cause Not everybody is the same. And to expect them to be all the same and just use one resource is not realistic, right?

AR: And I want the listeners to know how great you are. So I'm gonna just talk about you for a second. I was very nervous to put this book out, and I felt like I needed your thumbs up of approval because you're the dude that coined the term sketchnoting. And when I was writing this book, I was really worried because I'm like, "I didn't create this word. You know, I try to make that very clear every time I talk to anybody, I'm always like, "Mike Rohde, Mike Rohde, Mike Rohde," always talking about you all the time.

Because it can be very scary to put out work like this and you don't know how it's gonna be received. And when I got on that call with you earlier this year, you were like, "The more the merrier." And I'm like, oh, that makes me feel so good because it does feel like we—you know, the visual thinking community is like, we're worldwide, but tight-knit, you know? And I've experienced that and it's the best community ever.

And I think because we are so caring for each other is like, we wanna make sure we're doing things in like the most respectful way possible. And you know, I felt so—I was just like, I'm on cloud nine after I got off that call with you because you were like, "The more the merrier. I love it." You know, and exactly kind of the things you just said too. And I think that's like, having that sort of abundance mindset is just like such a beautiful thing and such a asset to this community.

So I really appreciated your kindness because it definitely feels like you know, from the outside, it's like—it's a funny thing when you're putting something like this together. I'm like, "No, it's not the Sketchnote Handbook, but it's like, you know, I'm just trying to do my thing and just share what I've learned over all these years too." And yeah, it can be a funny thing. So just shout out how great you are. I really appreciated that.

MR: I'm glad that I made your day that day and it is what I believe. And I think it's really important that we—I just always come back to there's so many opportunities. When you fight over one opportunity, it's like there's so many opportunities to do the work to encourage people. There's a whole population of people that don't do this. We've only scratched the surface and reached a tiny little fraction even now after 10, 15 years, right?

AR: Oh my gosh.

MR: And then there's more people getting born every day that don't know about this stuff. Though it is, you know, having an impact in schools. The funny story I could tell here, I don't if I've told this on the podcast before, is I have a 14-year-old daughter in middle school. Last year when she was 13, she came home and said, "Hey dad, they're teaching Sketchnoting in my class. And I told the teacher that she wrote the book on sketchnoting and she didn't believe me."

And then I told her that she should go to the library because she knew that I'd sent books there. And the teacher came back and said, "You're right. He did write the book." And she was all real proud that I had a book in this school.

AR: That is amazing. Oh, that's the best. That's awesome.

MR: So they do get exposed to it, at least in our school. I mean, it's very spotty, all over the country. But I do know school teachers especially get really excited because , you know, when you think about what you're doing with this visual note-taking with sketchnoting is that you're encouraging kids who would normally doodle anyway in a lot of cases.

AR: Exactly.

MR: To do something productive with it, to use it as a way to focus your attention and to capture ideas. So that's a win. And you know, as you do it, you realize your students actually absorb and understand better and can remember more. So for a teacher, this is like the magic thing, right? How could you not wanna to do that for your students, right?

AR: I know, right? How is everybody not doing this, Mike? Right?

MR: Yeah. Yeah. So teachers are huge fans and I'm a huge backer of teachers. I haven't done a lot of work with school districts. Through the pandemic, I worked with on school district, but I know that they're out there and I'm excited when I do hear from them. And sometimes I get opportunities to come and speak to their schools. And that's really fun for me because then it brings it full circle to see, okay, it's having an impact on teachers which are having an impact on students and they're getting this option, right.

And it's not for everybody. There's some students that doesn't fit with, I understand that. But the ones who do, that could be just a way. I get messages all the time, "Hey, I was a student in university, and using sketchnoting help me survive in my studies." Well, that's what it's all about, so.

AR: Yeah. And I think, you know, just overarching, there is so much room in this community, the sketchnoting the graphic recording, the live illustrate , whatever it is, however you want to kind of follow that path, I think there's so much room, and I think you're right in terms of scratching the surface. If this is something that you wanna do or get into.

Like even at my workshop, my live in person workshop I did last or I guess week in a bit ago now, you know, there was a woman there and she was like, "Is there room for me?" And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, there is room for you." Like the way that I see it is when people experience the value of it, they want more of it. And then eventually, there's not gonna be enough people who do it professionally.

There's just more to go around and the more people experience the power of it, the more it's gonna be required and desired in meeting places and at events and things like that. So I think there is a lot of room for new and upcoming people in this space too, no matter how—there could be hundreds of people out there just doing sketchnoting in classrooms. We need that, we need people who are advocating for it in there you know, so that it—it's just like you said, it's not gonna be for everybody and that's okay, but just like as an option, right. And we know how valuable it is. So, you know, there is so much room in the community for sure.

MR: Yeah. I think that's true. Well, this feels like a really good natural point then to shift to what are the tools that you like to use? Let's start with analog first and go to digital. You probably use both, I suspect. I'd just love to hear.

AR: I definitely have a pre and post-COVID world story when it comes to—

MR: Yeah. Let's tie that in there.

AR: Yeah. Well, so pre-COVID, I was 100 percent paper, markers. And then I had started practicing some digital, 'cause I thought at some point someone might ask me, "Hey, do you do digital? "And I'd be primed and ready to go. And then of course, COVID is like, "You are forced to do digital, Miss." Which for me actually was a blessing in disguise because I was traveling so much, having little kids. It was getting a lot.

MR: That's tough.

AR: So COVID in a sense was a beautiful blessing in disguise 'cause I've still been able to retain some of those clients, and they're doing it in person, but I'm just zoomed in and they're just showing my screen, and it's a beautiful thing. So, of course Neuland, everyone talks about Neuland. The best. What do you say? You know, they're number one. Even for those first one or two years, I just used sketcher markers. That was a beautiful stepping stone.

I am scent sensitive, so I think Neuland was a beautiful choice. Not just because the quality is there, but because it's scent free, and that's really important to me. Like, if not, I'd be getting a headache every day I worked and that wouldn't be a good time. So yeah, definitely, Neuland for the win. I do use a little bit of Posca pens here and there, just for highlighting on things. But it—oh.

MR: Those are paint markers, right? Am I right?

AR: Yeah, they're acrylic paint markers. Unfortunately, they're not refillable. I did get the Neuland acrylics. I don't know if they still sell them. I don't know. I think maybe.

MR: I'm not sure.

AR: But I did have a bunch of those, but I find the Posca pens just a little bit more vibrant. The consistency is really nice and smooth. So I do usually have a few of those on hand. But that makes up the majority. That's analog set for sure. And of course, like I probably own like every Neuland pen they have because of, you know—

MR: They have a pretty wide variety. Yeah.

AR: Yeah. And the bullet tip outliner is my favorite because—

MR: Me too.

AR: — it doesn't matter how you hold it, you can make a mark and it's gonna be a consistent line. I have a lot of the outliner bullet tip.

MR: That's my choice in the small and the large, both sizes and so.

AR: There you go. There you go. Love it. That's awesome. Yeah. And then for digital, I'm actually a Microsoft girl.

MR: Okay.

AR: I feel like I'm in the minority over here.

MR: Yeah, it's definitely a minority. I think, you know, Android users probably feel the same way.

AR: Yeah. So when I was looking for a drawing device, even though I like I said, I do own like every Neuland marker out there, but I also do strive to be a bit of a minimalist. So I was looking for a device that I could do multiple things on. When I found the Microsoft Surface, I was like, it's perfect 'cause it's my computer and it's my drawing tool.

And I've never owned an Apple product in my life. So I don't have anything against Apple. I'm sure they're great. Everyone seems to love them, but in terms of like a learning curve, I was like, I just want something that can be all in one.

MR: Yeah. That's the way you think.

AR: Yeah. Just do the thing and not do with the apps and all the stuff.

MR: That makes sense. I think that makes complete sense to me.

AR: Yeah. So I started, I think—I can't remember when I got my first surface, it was like maybe 2018 or something like that. But I didn't draw on it a whole lot. Like I said, I was practicing a little bit. But I also invested in a Microsoft Studio. So it's what I'm talking to you on right now. And it's basically like drawing on a TV screen. It's very big.

MR: Yes.

AR: Because I was getting—the first year of the pandemic I was doing a lot and just being hovered over a small device was just not a good time. So, you know, I was trying to find something out there. I looked at a couple of different options. But when I found the Microsoft Studio, I was like—or the Surface Studio, I guess it's called. I was like, yeah. It's an investment, but I'm very, very happy that I made it. So yeah, it allows me to draw and be able to move my arm around and do lots of things, and not be crunched over a small device.

MR: Yeah. It probably feels a little bit like more of a one-to-one relationship to the paper and pens that you had been doing, right? So it's sort of the same scale. I mean, it's more that scale, so—

AR: It's more, yeah. It's not as big, but not as small as like a iPad or something, right. So it's probably like four iPad size or something like that. If you were to—

MR: Like a 27 inch monitor or something, or 30 inch?

AR: I can't remember what it is, but it's pretty big. It's pretty big. And my program of choice is Sketchbook Pro. That's the one I started with. It's the one I use to this day. I'm sure there's other out there that are just as great. But what I usually tell people is just pick one and just do it. Just get through the learning curve. If it's Procreate on the iPad or if it's Microsoft, or if you're Microsoft or Android, and it's Sketchbook. I know they do have Sketchbook Pro for iPad as well, but you know, you just kind of have to pick one unfortunately, and just get through all the little funny things about it until it gets a little bit more intuitive.

Because most of my work is live, and that's just kinda how my brain is trained at this point, I don't have time to do all the fancy pens anyway. So I really use one pen, the paintbrush and the eraser, of course. And use a million layers, and that's about it. When I'm doing it live, is very minimal in terms of all these drawing programs, they're amazing and like, so robust, but I really try to encourage people to just, you know, use it minimally. Just do like one or two pens to start and use it in a minimal way. And then you can always just play around and things like that. But yeah, that's my kind of program and setup of choice.

MR: Interesting. Interesting. You're the first to talk about, I guess other than the GraphicWall, which is a product that Neuland makes which is like a roll of paper that you can use. I think maybe a few in the 14 season, someone may have mentioned a Cintiq. Which is more for illustration. I think it was—her name will come to me. She's a Welsh woman who uses this at home. And she has an interesting setup with a PC and a large Cintiq, I believe.

AR: Oh, interesting.

MR: So it's got a stylus. So for those who don't know, before the iPad existed, the Cintiq was like the boss on the block, right. And they made different size. They kept increasing the size. So basically, if I were to describe it, it's like a screen with touch sensitivity. It comes with a dedicated pen, which has a pen tip and an eraser. And basically, what you would do with it, is you'd open up Photoshop and you'd use Photoshop and choose your brushes and stuff and use layers. And so it's like the pre Procreate, I guess, right.

It's very expensive, very clunky. You don't really take it any place. It's stuck to your desk. So, you know, if that's the way you work, that's great. If you work in a studio where everything stays in place, it's great. You know, the beauty of the iPad or the Surface, and smaller surfaces and these other devices is you can pick 'em up and go to the cafe or sit in the back of a room and do the work. And it just freed up, you know, the ability to do more with this processing power and the screen resolution and the pen resolution really is matched where those things were for a couple years, so.

AR: Yeah. I do have a smaller Surface, like the laptop style and, you know, came in really handy when I had to do an event last week and managed to plug me in and project it on a giant screen in the room. So that was pretty cool. And the setup was like less than 30 seconds. Not gonna lie, that was pretty awesome 'cause usually when you're doing on paper, you're like, okay, I gotta get there early. I gotta get all my board set up, gotta get it all ready. I'll just say there's pros and cons to both.

MR: Right. I agree.

AR: There's pros and cons to both, right. So you kind of have to weigh what those pros and cons are, and then pick what's gonna work best for your event or whatever it is that you're doing. But yeah, the portability of an iPad or a Surface or something is really beautiful. And you can just pick up and go and plug in or like you said, go to the coffee shop and do your thing or what have you, but if I'm doing like a long day like virtual event or something, it's very nice to have my big Surface Studio, that's for sure.

MR: Yeah. It's nice to have options in your case, right? You've got the small portable, you've got the larger scale. You can always revert to paper if you know you wanted to do it that way.

AR: Absolutely.

MR: I mean, you've got three options right there.

AR: Yeah. I have a document camera, I use that quite a bit for different things. So if I'm hosting a workshop online or if I'm doing stuff, I usually do it on paper with my document camera so people can see the marks that I'm making. I think that's a little bit more important when you're teaching a workshop, you're doing something like that so people can see those marks, whereas they don't see them on the digital surface.

MR: Yeah, yeah.

AR: So it's nice to be able to have the flexibility of both. And, you know, I didn't just wake up one day with all of these tools. I just accumulated them over time.

MR: Yes. Over time. Yeah.

AR: Right. One year I buy this, the next year I bought that, tight. So, yeah, don't feel like you need to have all of those things either.

MR: That's a great tool set and it's good to have some variety. So if someone's listening in and maybe they think the same way you do this will encourage them to explore different directions. That's good.

AR: Yeah. Definitely.

MR: Well, let's shift into tips now. So every episode we try to have something practical for those who are listening. We collect 'em all at the end of the season and we put 'em in an all the tips episode, of course. What are the three tips, or you can go more than three if you want to, but three tips you might say to someone who—I always frame it like this. Someone's listening, they're individual thinking, but they feel like they're in a bit of a rut or they're on a plateau and they just don't know how to get out of where they're at, and they would use a little encouragement. What would you tell that person?

AR: Right. Yeah. Well, I've been having a lot of conversations lately with—I'm just gonna talk from like a beginner perspective, maybe that isn't—

MR: Okay. Yeah, that's fine.

AR: You know, we'll just talk about that for a second because I've been, of course, like talking to so many people that are like brand new to this, and there seems to be a really big leap between live and not live. So when I teach it, when I talk about it, I always go in with the assumption that they're going to do it live. So I talk about, "Well, you don't have a lot of time, so do this. You don't have a lot of time, so do this." But what I'm finding is that people—that is actually like quite a large ask. Like, learn all these skills, do all the listening thinking, and do it live. Like do it right now.

So I've been really working with people to encourage them to do whatever you need to do. Make notes on sticky notes, do the traditional way you would capture, type them out. Do whatever you need to do to get the information and then you can always create the sketchnote later. It's great, yeah, to do it in the moment, but if that is like too much of an ask and it feels too scary, give yourself permission to capture in a way that you feel comfortable and with the idea that you're going to create a sketchnote of it later.

So maybe the purpose of creating the sketchnote is a little bit different. It's less about the immediate understanding, which is one of the things that I love about sketchnoting and visual thinking in general is that, making it so it's you have that learning in the moment. So you know, you're gonna be doing your learning maybe a little bit later when you're creating your sketchnote. But I've just been having to give people a lot of permission lately, like, "Don't worry about doing it live, do whatever you want, then create it," right?

And then you can focus on the aesthetics or the things, or if you're doing it digitally, you can move things around and you can feel it. You know, 'cause if you create one and you feel good about it, you're gonna do another one. But if you do it live and it's clunky and it's messy and you feel horrible about it, you're not gonna do it again. Or it's gonna be a really difficult to kind of get back to it.

You know, I think we have this idea that it always has to be live. And I think especially when people are new, that is a big ask. And it doesn't always have to be, right. Like, when I got into it, that was my default, and that's just what I do. And now I'm just like so in tuned to it that I feel like I—you know, we forget that that isn't gonna come and there's like a little too scary for some people to just learn all the things now do it live, you know? So I would say that, you know, however you need to create it, do that. Even if it's live, that's okay if it's not live.

One thing that I don't know, maybe is a little controversial, but I'm gonna share this one, something that I've been thinking a lot about lately is what might be considered like cliche drawings. So I gave the example, I've got like a light bulb. And I think because I'm working with beginners so much right now, is that I've really been leaning in on the idea that cliches are okay.

Like, drawing something that might be considered a cliche, I think is awesome. Because I think it's that leap again, right? If you've been in this community for a long time, you're likely challenging yourself, like, "Oh, how could I draw this to explain this concept? Or bring these ideas together into like—" I know he had Dario, he does these like beautiful visual metaphors.

MR: Metaphors, yeah.

AR: Right. Like how we can visualize these concepts. And I think that is beautiful thing. But I think for people that are newer, that's just like too much. They can't even think about that 'cause they don't even know how to draw a light bulb yet. You know what I mean? And, you know, the light bulb icon saved me because like I said, I'm not joking. I drew one on everything I did for years because I felt confident in drawing a light bulb.

There was always an aha moment or something I wanted to stick out on the page, and that's where I would put my little light bulb. So I think like leaning in and those basics or things that might be considered cliches, I think that's okay. I think we can always be challenging ourselves and how we wanna draw things, but leaning in on some of those like rudimentary or basic drawings of how people who've been doing it for a while, I think that's totally fine. Because you have to start somewhere, right?

You can't just like, oh, I'm gonna go from not knowing sketchnoting at all, now I'm gonna create these really complex drawings. There's has to be this ladder or this stepping stone approach. So if you needed permission to draw something that might be considered a cliche, I highly encourage it.

MR: Yeah. Well, Dario always says that, you know, metaphors is the next level. So the audience he's going after are people that feel confident about the cliche stuff, but they wanna rise up to another level. And that's cool, right.

AR: I love that. Yeah.

MR: Maybe for many people, the cliches are just fine for the audience and the work they do, and they never feel the need and not doing it professionally. Like, it's fine.

AR: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, yeah, it's beautiful to have that opportunity kind of like step up your next—because I'm like, you know, I'm in a space, like I don't wanna keep drawing the same thing over and over again. Like, that's not a good time. I wanna challenge—

MR: For you, it's something, a challenge. Yeah. It's good for—

AR: Something that I wanna do, but yeah, someone who is more new or even just have been doing it for a year or two or, you know, it can be—you know, just remind yourself, don't make this more complicated than you need to, especially when you're doing it live. Like just, you know, building that visual vocabulary over time and starting with something that might be considered a cliche, you know.

And hopefully, you get into that not comparing mode, right. We already talked about it could be a tip of course of really trying not to compare—you know, like when I went to the 2015 Austin, Texas, it was like, I really was on this really funny line of intimidation and inspiration. And when you're in intimidated, can you flip it upside down and turn it into inspiration instead. Just threw another tip in there for you too.

Maybe the last thing I'll just mention, which maybe feels like an off topic from what we've talked about so far, but one thing that I tend to spend a lot of time on is letters. And if you have nice clean letters, your sketchnotes gonna look awesome, no matter if you don't have a lot of drawings on it or a lot of drawing elements like lines and containers and things.

So I spend unfortunate amount of time with people to try to just help them clean up their letters a little bit. Because I always find that people have this really funny relationship to their handwriting. It's like, you love it, you hate it. It's in between. It's a funny thing with people's relationship with their handwriting. So you almost have to get people—you have to get comfortable with like, "This is my handwriting. I don't wanna embrace my own style, but I'm just gonna like, try to clean things up a little bit."

Every time you make a letter, it looks the same every time. Or picking up your pen and doing like, things like that. Because there's so much content that's always captured, if you feel really confident about your letters, then everything else will just go from there. But every time you go to write something down, you're feeling not great about it, then you know, that's like—I guess like I'm just in this head space right now of how do we just encourage people to do more, have a good experience.

And if you have nice clean letters, then I think you'll have a more positive experience with it too. So I think all of my years in early childhood education also primed me for this work too 'cause my letters were pretty decent going into it, so I literally had to practice them and all that good stuff. It maybe a bit of off topic from what we've talked about, but I just wanted to mention it 'cause it's something that seems to be coming up for me a lot lately with people.

MR: Yeah. I think one of the practices I did, I haven't done this for a long time when we did workshops in person, was I had people do sketchnotes with no drawings. All they could do is lettering, and they could make it bigger, they could do all kinds of stuff with it, but it had to be a letter. And then you start to realize like, well actually letters are really drawings at some degree once you get to a certain scale. So you're technically breaking the rule, but you're not breaking the rule, which is fun when people realized it. And maybe that's an exercise I need to reintroduce, I don't know, but.

AR: Yeah. No, it's a good one. I always say like letter or letters are drawings in the skies. Exactly, what you said basically. If you can write letters, you can draw. It is pretty darn foundational sketchnoting getting the information down and finding that speed where you can capture quickly, you know, but it's still fairly legible. It's this kind of song and dance.

I always kind of end up talking about lettering and stuff a lot in the beginning when I'm with people. Which, you know, may not be the most exciting thing in the world, but it's pretty darn important. So I'm like, "Just bear with me. Let's just get through this and develop the skill a little bit before we kind of go into drawing." 'Cause I feel like people, they see it and they go immediately to drawing. They're like, "Oh, I just wanna draw stuff that's exciting."

And in my book, I put little, "draw little icons," I put at the very end of the book. It was very intentional why it's at the end of the book because I didn't wanna start it with it because then you need to get some of that foundational stuff down first before you—'cause if you just learn a bunch of icons and none of the other stuff, you know, like how ideas connect together and all of that, then you know, it's not gonna be as beneficial. And you might burn out quicker because you're putting too much pressure that you have to draw a bunch of stuff. And it's not about that at all.

MR: Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Another good observation. I don't know if it quite qualifies as a tip, but I guess it is.

AR: Sure why not? Lots of tips.

MR: Pile another one on there.

AR: Yeah, that's what I got for you today. That's what I got for you today.

MR: Good. Well, that's great. That's really encouraging. Well, this is the point in the podcast where we ask how people can find you so they can make connections, say hello, check out your book, look at your work. All that kind of stuff. Our community always loves new people. And so, what would be the best place, places for people to find you and to see your work?

I got a few different ways. So my business is Minds Eye Creative, so mindseye,creative.ca 'cause I'm in Canada. All things Minds Eye Creative, that's where you can find me. And some of examples of my work for clients and things like that. And then Sketchnote.School is all things learning how to sketchnote. I've got my newsletter. I sent out a Sketchnote tip every Saturday. And you can learn about my book on there, "The Beginner's Guide to Sketchnoting," and you know, it's on Amazon and all those places too.

MR: Cool.

AR: And information about my community on there at Sketchnotes School as well. And I recently rebranded my YouTube channel. I'm gonna try to redo some YouTube things to Sketchnotes. So doing more under Sketchnotes School these days than Mind's Eye Creative.

MR: Cool. Well, those are good two or three good places. We'll look for you on YouTube. If you wanna send along you know, some links to me, we'll make sure that they get in the show notes. But we all of course, do our research here and try to provide pretty detailed shownotes so people can find things, so

AR: Absolutely. I love that.

MR: That's perfect. Well, thanks so much Ashton, for being on the show. It's been great to talk with you and hear your story and just hear your unique perspective and how you approach things and all the way down to the tools that you use that are a little different. That's really cool. I think it's important that we see variety and that we're not a homogenous thing. We're a variety where it's a community of people and all have different perspectives. And that's great because we need those perspectives to keep growing and improving the work we do. So thanks for being part of that community and the work you do.

AR: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Had such a good time.

MR: Good. Well, for everyone who's watching or listening, it's another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until the next episode, talk to you soon.

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In this episode, Rev Andy Gray, who obsessively drew as a kid, shares an incredible 30-year journey of graphic designing and how his art has evolved to become an editorial cartoonist, coach, and graphic illustrator.

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Running Order

• Intro
• Welcome
• Who is Andy
• Origin Story
• Andy’s current work
• Sponsor: Concepts
• Tips
• Tools
• Where to find Andy
• Outro

Links

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Andy's Website
• Andy’s LinkedIn
• Andy's Instagram
• Andy's Facebook
• Benjamin Felis
• Books by Quentin Blake
• Tom's Inky thinking

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Neuland markers
• Graphic Wall
• Ballpoint pens
• Color pencils
• Camera back back
• Rock N Roller trolley

Tips

1. Practice using long-form, business-based YouTube videos.
2. Network with other people.
3. Photograph your work and link to it.
4. Practice the "Something about" technique.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer

Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast

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Support the Podcast

To support the creation, production, and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everybody, it's Mike and I'm here with Andy, a.k.a Rev Gray. Andy, how are you doing?

Andy Gray: I'm doing all right. Thank you.

MR: It's good to have you. We were connected by Patty and Grant, good friends of mine who actually just finally met in Holland, just this fall. So really good to make that connection and have people out there. I've always got people out there suggesting people I'd have on the show.

So thank you, Grant and Patty. Probably more Grant than Patty, I suppose. But Rev, why don't you tell us who you are and what you do, and then go right into your origin story? How did you get here doing what you're doing, and all interesting tidbits along the way?

AG: Yeah. We're gonna go back a long time. So who I am, and what do I do? I'm a graphic recorder and I'm a children's and grownup book illustrator, and I illustrate magazines as well. Think of me—I don't know whether you've ever heard of a guy called Quentin Blake.

MR: Quentin Blake, I don't know that name. It sounds familiar, but I don't know him.

AG: If I say "Charlie in the Chocolate Factory."

MR: Oh yeah.

AG: And I say Roald Dahl, and I say, the person who illustrated Roald Dahl then immediately you start to get to know who Quentin Blake is.

MR: Got it.

AG: He's just turned 90, actually.

MR: Wow.

AG: And so if you take his style and you mix it with people from the other side of the pond, 'cause obviously I'm a Britt, people from the other side of the pond from your side say, "Oh, you look just like the New Yorker." So think of me as an editorial cartoonist illustrator, and you won't be far off.

I'm also a Church of England Minister. I've been in youth and children's ministry for decades, and I plant churches and stuff, and I train people and coach people. And basically, I try and help everybody to live life in their fullest. I'm also a DJ, magician, a dad, husband, and general mad person. I do everything I can. I get bored easy.

MR: Well, you fit right in the Sketchote Army podcast and in the Sketchote community, 'cause we're all quirky. I've been reminded of that when I just came back from Laiden, from the International Sketchnote Camp there. And loved everybody. You know, we're really community minded, but we're all quirky in our own ways. So you fit right in.

AG: Fantastic. Yeah, I've kind of got this target, and next time you do something like that, I wanna be there. So I was too late to take advantage this time, but I'll be there next time.

MR: Sounds good. Well, why don't you get into, like, where did you start from? You can go back as far as when you were a little baby, I suppose if you remember.

AG: We were talking just before we started rolling, weren't we? Okay, so this will make some people either laugh or they'll be sick. If you're eating at the moment, do stop. Have you finished your mouthful? Excellent. Good. Right. Because my mother tells me very reliably that the first time that I really I got into art was when I was in my cot when I was about two years old. In fact, probably younger, actually, I was just a toddler. So maybe about 18 months.

And when she put me down for a nap in the afternoon, I would take the contents of my nappy and I would smear them all over the walls. So, you know, it is early start in my expressionist period using brown pigment and various shades. So funny enough, she stopped putting me down after that.

I guess then I mean, I've only just in the last what? In the last five years, been diagnosed having autism or being autistic. I'm actually autistic because we prefer Asperger's or neuros-spicy. Which makes sense for a lot of the things which I'm gonna talk to you about.

But I couldn't sleep as a little kid, which is quite normal for autistic people, you know? And so, I'd wake up about 1:00 in the morning and I'd have pens and paper, and I remember so often I just would be sound asleep for about four hours. So I'd get my pens and paper and I would just draw continually for about four hours. And then mum would come in and she'd see me that I'd be falling asleep with pens and paper all over my bed.

And so, the next thing would happen the next night. So I obsessively drew, and that's kind of like always been my story. I couldn't draw that well. I used to always be jealous of my friends at school. They could draw really well and I couldn't, probably bit rubbish till I was about 14.

And then it started with me copying Bino. Have you ever come across Bino? If I say comic, the problem is, it's sort of like around the world, comics are kind of like superheroes and stuff. In the UK, we talk about comics and we're talking about sort of like cartoon characters in strip cartoons you might call them.

MR: Yes. We had this in the newspaper. I don't know Bino, though. That's not a character I know.

AG: Right. Okay. So it is that kind of style. So Dan de Bino UK people know exactly what I'm talking about. So think for you, it's the kind of simplistic style that you get with peanuts.

MR: Yes.

AG: And we have magazines full of that which is just fun. And I used to copy Backstreet Kids which people will know the name of over here, and I could get it so that I could draw them without needing to reference them. And so, I just did that and, you know, covered all my school books in Backstreet Kids and other illustrations.

And then you weren't supposed to, I went to a Deb Posh private school, and you weren't supposed to do that. And I did. It wasn't naughty, but I just didn't get told off for it 'cause they like recipe me work as well. So I drew all of this stuff. And then when I was 14 like I said, I couldn't really draw. And then my little sister was born and my dad took me away. And when he took me away, he I bought a book o pencil drawing pencils.

So we just done a whole day for two or three days, and I just started drawing from that book. And suddenly, literally overnight, it clicked and I was able to draw anything I wanted in pencil, you know, realistically or not realistic, however I wanted. So the first gig came in maybe about six months after that from somebody, and she wanted a picture of Peter Rabbit. So I drew it and she paid me 10 quid. I thought, "Ooh, this is easy."

MR: Wow.

AG: So, yeah. So back in the '80s, 10 quids is nothing to be shy of. So I did bits and pieces here and there, but I really wanted to be an editorial cartoonist. So when I got married in my early 20s, I self-study the style of how to be an editorial cartoonist. And it went really well. But I ended up working so hard. I was also working for a company called British Gas. And it was a regional office, and this, it was the size of a warehouse and it was just open-plan office space.

So, if you can imagine what that was like and what that did, I was right in the middle of it, what that did to an autistic brain, not knowing it was autistic at the time. And I was trying to get this editorial cartoon business going. And we didn't have internet in those days. Do you remember that?

MR: Yeah.

AG: We didn't have internet, did we?

MR: I was there.

AG: In the very early '90s, I had a fax machine. I was dead proud. And that was it, that's all we had. And so, trying to get the business in was really hard. And although I sort of like did—you know, the newspaper did pick up for a couple of issues, that was it. And I ended up burning out really badly.

And during that period, I couldn't have time off work with stress, somebody came to me and said, "Look, you know, find out what God really wants you to do." So I'm a Christian, like I said, I'm a minister. They said, "Find out what God really wants you to do." Within two weeks I'd worked out that really, "I need you to put the pens down," and just say, "God, what do you want me to do?" And within two weeks somebody came back and said, "Why don't you train for youth and children's ministry?"

So it's like, "Hmm, all right then that sounds right." And it came from so many places, people saying it, they didn't know each other, so I thought, "We're gonna do it." So dived into going training and I sat in the lecture theater, listening to theology. And it's sort of like getting fairly bored. 'Cause theology is quite a boring thing, really.

While everybody was taking notes, I didn't know taking notes. I learned how to mind map, I also learned memory techniques, and all sorts of other things. Just trained myself in the whole lot. But then when the thing interesting was happening, I just started drawing.

And so, I didn't draw anything particular. I just drew in the same way as I used to drawing my school books. So that was great. And then I found myself drawing a little bit for the college 'cause they wanted little bits and pieces done. So that was okay. Then I went to go and be a youth and children's minister, and I found that the art stuff that I did then became what I was doing as part of my ministry.

And so, that lasted for, I think about, we'll do rough figures about 10 years, and then I went to go and work for a Christian publishing organization. So they got about 10 million, 12 million pound turnover. And they did publishing as well as training people. So I trained people around the country and in the Northwest of the UK in working with young people and children and how to do it and how to help them get a life of fullness and all the rest of it.

And they found out that I could draw. And so, they said, "Would you mind drawing a book for us?" "Oh, that's quite good. Draw a book for you". And they paid nicely for them. Oh, that's all right, isn't it? And they said, "Would you do some more drawing for us?" And so, I had this side hustle of drawing at the same time, and it all went through their book. So I didn't have to do any bookkeeping or anything. And that was very nice.

At the same time, as we drew to the end of, I was doing more and more drawing for them. I was also learning how to be an entrepreneur and developing those skills of running businesses, but also lots of side hustles. So I got things going and I was trading mp3 players and all sorts of other things on the side. It was great.

And then I got a calling to go and get a dog collar. So, you know, it's the whole dog collary thing to be a church minister besides just a youth and children's worker. So, for me, it wasn't really an upgrade, it was just a development of ministry, and I was doing something else, but I was gonna become a pioneer, an ordained pioneer minister, which means planting churches in interesting places like coffee shops and things like that, rather than just going running normal churches.

And I knew that I didn't really wanna be in full-time, paid ministry because it ties you to the church. And I'm a minister for people who don't go to church. That's the kind of person I am. Anyway, I trained in theology. And while I was doing it, I went back to drawing at the back of the lecture theaters 'cause it's boring. I could write the papers, no problem, do the study and stuff.

And then one day, 'cause I mean it was pretty small, things that we were doing, small cohort. It was only about 40 of us. And we were just really good friends. So I was about 40-odd at the time. And I was really good friends with the lecturers, you know, 'cause we all just got on together. It is that kind of format when you're doing this kind of training.

And one of the lecture one day turned around, he said, "Would you draw what I say?" I said, "Sorry, what?" He said, "Would you draw what I say?" He said, "Well, yeah, instead of just drawing," he said, "I'd love to see what it looked like if you drew what I said." Oh, all right. So I drew what he said and he's like, "Oh, that's quite interesting."

So I then just started drawing what people said. Instead of drawing sort of like—I mean, I dunno whether people are familiar with what you might call Christian art drawn and painted in sermons and the like, but it's usually quite squirly-worrly. And it's usually got hands in it and it's usually got a dove in it. Sometimes it might be the story and that's about it and it's art.

But I wanted something else. So I started drawing art and then combining key phrases in there and making it part of the arts and doing that. And I just built on that. And then when I was ordained and I was a trainee vicar, if you like. So the best way of putting it, so cure it. Sometimes I wasn't lecturing , I wasn't actually leading, and I wasn't preaching.

So I'd sit there bored again. I can't stand church. I'm a minister who hates church I get bored. That's why people love my sermons and my talks and the way I lead church 'cause I get bored quicker than anybody else does. So that's great.

So I sat there drawing instead, and because I got in this habit of drawing what people said, I started drawing the sermon. And I would start by seeing, so we'd have a bit of a Bible story or a Bible passage, and then I'd draw the outline of that. Then I'd start putting in smaller elements of what was preached on within that bigger picture and where necessary adding words.

Great. Did that for about 10 years, you know. And then I found that throughout all of this, with the theology side of things and stuff, people started saying, "Andy, can we have a copy, please? It'll help us remember." Brilliant. There's no skin off my nose, you know. So they'd take copies, then they'd share them around and all the rest of it.

I did another job coming out of that because, after 10 years of church planting and all the rest of it, that was great. And then I decided that it was time to start moving away from being a paid minister. And I wanted to achieve being a self-supporting minister so that I wasn't tied to the whole—there's quite a lot of management involved in the Church of England now because you have to look after more than one church.

And so, there's a huge number of meetings, and everything else. I thought that's not me. I have to sort of like, be freelance, if you like. So little bit of prayer, "What do you want me to do, God?" And answer came back looking to try and work towards being self-employed and stuff. And then what should I do? You know, be an illustrator. I'm not sure I wanna be an illustrator again.

And then within two weeks of this conversation somebody came to me and said, "Andy, you don't remember me from college days 20 years ago. We were in the year below you. We've just found you on Facebook. Do you still draw pictures?" Well, oddly enough, "Yes. I've just started getting back into drawing pictures and being paid for it." "Oh, great. Could you illustrate our book for us, please?" " Don't wanna Illustrate books."

Spoke to a mate of mine. He turned around, he said, "You gotta illustrate." He said, "You can do whatever God sends you." Oh, all right then. Okay, fair enough. I did this one book, and it's not stopped ever since.

MR: One thing leads to another.

AG: Yeah. Slowly the price has gone up. Every time I've finished one book, another book—I mean, I've got, I think it's eight projects sitting on my desk at the moment of books people want illustrating. It's a nightmare. Anyway, can't complain. So what happened was, though that as I got out of this, so this was what? This was five years back. And I dropped down to working for the Southwest of England, training people in churches and to talk about their faith. Fun enough.

But carried on training people. And I've got a way of coaching and a way of styling how I train people. It's all the same thing. It's selling them the idea that they can actually do it. It's great. And so I can do that. During this time, I was illustrating more and more books. And then September last year, I realized that I'd started—the grant funding was running out this coming summer. So the summer is just gone.

And I realized I'd have to leave even earlier than I thought before the money ran out. So I said to the guy who was my line manager at the time, I said, "In one week I've turned down 3000 pounds worth of money. I can't keep going like this. I think I have to leave early." He's a brilliant Christian man. He said, "I think you do actually excellent and we'll help you to do it." What? So like, oh great. All right. Okay.

And I thought, "Well, I wanna see what God wants as well. So I said, "Okay, God, what do you want me to do next?" So illustration itself, I mean, I developed this very fast illustration style because the way of making ends, meters and book illustrates is you've gotta be fast and people have to like what you do.

So I'd really gone to this point of really refining my art style into a very, very posh art style, which took ages to do, and was very pretty. And people said, "Yeah, that's really nice. I really like that." And I get paid for it. But it wasn't quick enough to make an income.

And then we were just finished with the diocese, paid for us all to do coaching. Coaching, training. So I'm a trained coach. I'm not a coach, qualified coach 'cause I've not done the hours. But I'm a trained coach 'cause I've done the training. So take it as you leave it. So don't call yourself a coach, but you know how to do it.

And during that time, we had to practice coaching each other. And there were two really significant things that came up. One of them we'll might mention later, which is something about phrasing coaching. So it would be good to come back to that because I think it's a top tip is that one.

MR: Okay.

AG: But the other thing was I was trying to work out how to make ends meet. And I was in this coaching session with this bloke. He was coaching me, I was just having fun. And I said I have to work out how to make ends meet. It was then I realized that I had to dump my style of being very posh and fast, very posh and nice and digging ages, charge more, much more, and drop back to the fastest speed that I developed when I was 18, 19, 20 years old of this editorial cartoonist.

And it just so happened that the 20 years previously—20 years? 15 years previously, as I'd been doing the book illustrations, I got so fed up with posh illustrations what basically burned me out a bit on the illustration, that I picked up a book and this is gonna be one of my recommended books by a guy called Quentin Blake to basically for the people who couldn't draw.

Now I could draw, but what it did is it was so close to my style and I hadn't realized, I thought, well I'll read this book and you're drawing in it at the same time. It's brilliant. And you draw and you read at the same time, you draw what he tells you to. By the end of it, within 36 hours, my style had completely relaxed, and was 20 times faster than it was before.

And I started putting it on Facebook and people weren't just going, "Oh, that's nice." They went, "Oh wow, that's so awesome." And I'm like going, okay, faster, people think it's awesome and I can charge more, brilliant. So that became my style. And you'll see how that's relevant in a minute because 12 months ago, not sure what I was gonna do next. I of course start praying, saying, "God, what should I do next?" You know, and said, "Oh, I give up. I've got no idea what to do next. It's your job."

And within 24 hours, somebody gave me a call. I called him Matt Pritchard, and he gave me a phone call. And he said, "Andy", he said, "You drew for me 15 years ago a logo." And we've been in touch ever since. We're both magicians. He's much better than me. Much better. He's a member of the magic circle. I'm not. And he said, "Can you draw conversations?"

I said, "Oh, don't know. I've got no idea. What do you mean?" And he said, "Well, have a look at the Bible project." So I went on there and said, well that's the kind of style. Okay, right. And he said, "Do you wanna have a go?" And I said, "Well, let me look into it and see if anybody else has done it now."

So I thought, what could he refer to? And I thought, well, what is it? lsn't it a live illustration, maybe? So I looked it up and went, "Hang on, it's got a name. It's called graphic recording. I've been doing this for the last 30 years. What? And it's an industry. This is so cool."

So I jumped in with Benjamin Felis' course 'cause I had no idea. So I like to learn fast. And because of doing all the artwork, and so, I built up some money in the business for training and stuff. So I bought his course. So props to Ben on that one. His main thing was that really helped me was the reference to three books. To a few books.

And I saw a line finally between a TED Talk and what he was saying, how it was done. And I went, "Ah, I do do this already. It's not just called drawing in church, which I've called it for years. I can do it." So I've not even come across you by that point, you know?

MR: Sure.

AG: More conversation with Matt, and I said, "I'd like to do it on iPad 'cause then we can try it out and just link it through a video projector." And he said, "Well, I think it should be done on paper or on canvases or something. So I looked around, and well, you could do it on a big foam core board, but I thought, well, the people we are doing it with, were gonna be young people talking about faith and science and the link between the two. And I thought I can't draw it like that for you. Because they would feel guilty if they threw it away. Anyway, I said, we'll do it on iPad.

Anyway, it was in January just gone that I was going to a conference, and I thought, "Well, I know they won't mind if I sit at the back. But I wanna do it a bit more than just on a piece of paper. I don't wanna draw an iPad. I can do it on paper and see what it feels like." So I got myself four pieces of foam cardboard, which is about A1 size on its side.

But then I also got the paper and I used the foam call board as my board, a real lightweight board, and my previous easel of broker. So I bought myself a new easel dropped another a hundred quid on market pens and some paper. And I said to the guy, the tech guys that back said, do you mind if I just sit at the back with you? You know, it wasn't a big space. Only about 200 people there for a three-day conference and said, "Can I just sit at the back with you and just draw?" Anyway, so I did.

Quick cut ahead, the result of doing that means that the main people presenting then found out what I was doing. The fact that I could draw, become really good friends. And I've ended illustrating for them and recouping about 5,000 pounds worth of work of them.

That's beside the point, the graphic recording stuff. I've done books for them. They go internationally. So I'm an international illustrator, you see. I was at the back drawing and then somebody came up and saw what I was doing and they went, "Oh wow. Can I take a photo? I thought you were just doing normal Christian art, like everybody else's but this is different."

And then I even had one person—so people start taking photographs and I've got these small pieces of paper, I say small, but A1s or landscape all over the place being drawn in this style. I do focus on the art first, but I was trying at that point to say it was kind of like there was a bit of a popcorn method going on. But I wanted it to be artistic.

By that point, I hadn't quite managed to smush these two things together. You know, the style I used to do together with actually sort like trying to get data that people can hook in with. So I was like, "Oh, my word. Okay, yeah short Cushing photographs. For an artist, people taking photographs of your work is like, that's the best ever. You don't care about selling if you just, I mean, you want to sell stuff. You have people taking photographs, and you get excited.

And then I asked this lady, come up, looked at this picture, and burst into tears. I thought, "By it, what I done now." And I said, why? She said, "I can never follow anything that's said in these sort of things. And I feel so guilty about it. What you have done have made it so that I can remember what was said."

MR: Wow.

AG: And one of the things that my friend guided me on—well another friend actually, I got too many millionaire friends and one particular millionaire friend said to me, when I was trying to work out what to do, he said, "Well, how does your art serve people?" And I said, "Well, I dunno, really."

And digging around then we discovered that doing the art as the books is I help people tell their stories. So that's my tagline. But I realized that this person, I'd done an act of translation and later I found it was actually even similar to the way she reacted, was even similar to someone you get sign language if they're hard of hearing or deaf or deafened, because some people, they can't manage to remember what's said.

And so, doing this meant that it wasn't just exciting, and oh, look, my words have been drawn. And more recently I've discovered a better word is interface. But we can come onto that one as well if you like. So anyway, so I thought, well, I've never managed to do nine hours a day for three days on an iPad. It would've done my head in. So we're gonna do paper. So I phoned up, I can't remember whether you've had him on or not, but Tom from Inky thinking?

MR: No, I need to have him on. I need to have him.

AG: He would be cool. He'll be cool. I'll link you later at another point.

MR: Okay.

AG: But they're one of two suppliers in the UK for Neuland products.

MR: Hmm. Okay.

AG: And I spoke to them, and he was really good. And after talking to him, I decided I was gonna actually invest in the graphic wall.

MR: Yeah. I've heard that.

AG: LW hyphen X, you know, this sounds very cool, but you can expand it in all sorts of things. I mean, I've got now got five panels, so I go out four meters by one and a quarter-meters tall. So this thing's huge. I've even got the winders on the ends now, so I can do 25 meters nonstop, which is just so cool.

MR: And for those who are watching or listening who don't know what the GraphicWally, I think is, was the name of it. It's like—

AG: Well, the GraphicWally is the little thing.

MR: It's the little one. Okay.

AG: It's quite narrow and small. I'm talking about the free-standing job basically.

MR: Big guy.

AG: If you take a flip chart board and basically, you just stack them for 4 meters.

MR: Five

AG: It's five. Yeah. That's what I've got. All right. And it just keeps going. It's awesome.

MR: And I think it's got like a winder, isn't it? A roll of paper that you can continuously
wind it.

AG: It doesn’t unless you drop the funds on the new stuff, so.

MR: Oh, okay.

AR: So be aware this stuff isn't cheap. I think I've dropped about five grand on equipment so far.

MR: Yeah. I think that's the key of the GraphicWally, is it's a smaller one. I think they intended it for a camera or something, right?

AR: Yeah, that's right.

MR: Because I know Ben Felis has it, and it's got like a crank. It's got a roll of paper on one side and a roll on the other. And it's sort of like old school film, you know, you would drag it across and take pictures.

AG: Yeah. Well, if you 10 x that, literally 10 x it, you get what I've got now.

MR: Oh God.

AR: And the thing is that, I mean, this is a top tip for anyone wanting to go into graphic recording, go with looking like you know what you need to do. Now apparently, I might be wrong on this, but apparently Disney discovered this. So I go full lo place. So Disney they had a little bit of full feedback.

Apparently, Disney, Europe, I think had some feedback. The people thought that it was dirty. So what they did, they got more cleaners in and people still said it was dirty. So they then put their cleaners in yellow jackets. Everybody said it was clean. One of the things that I've established in the past is a Ballgame Cafe. So a community Ballgame Cafe.

I mean, I made the money through affiliate processes at Amazon to buy the ballgame for the Ballgame Café. Is great, and just left it there. So, community thing. But we recognized that if people came along to the cafe for the first time, 'cause the popup cafe and looked, I went, "Oh, look, you've got just a few games, haven't you?" They won't be impressed. In the end, we've got about 3000 pounds worth of games all through me raising entrepreneurial funds. So it all works.

And raise these funds to buy all these games. So people came in, it's like a sweet shop, they went, "Oh wow." Got excited and then stayed. And it wouldn't have been in the same way. And, you know, take the tip from Disney. I mean, I heard about Disney later, but I've always had since then, make it look like you know what you're doing by having the right kit.

The idea of all the gear and no idea isn't quite true. Because actually, if you go in and you've just got sort of like ropey stuff, you can have all the ideas and the, the professionals will look and go, yeah, I haven't got a clue. And so, you won't have that start of a 10 of them getting that first impression. You have a good set of kit, and they will look and say, you know what you're doing, and therefore they'll come with that mindset.

It is called the Pygmalion Effect, I do believe. So look that one up. Quite interesting. So anyway, so I invested in this kit, went and did this gig elsewhere in the country for my mate Matt. And we first of all worked with those from primary school age up to about 11 years old. And it was brilliant. It was great fun.

And then we did it again, and this time with teenagers. And the teenagers got well into the conversations. It was really deep, it was a really heavy day that they were talking about, science and faith and really digging deep.

I mean, they did heavy lifting. And I just drew it. It was a bit more text than I liked on it, but it didn't matter. And we ended up with this really big board of that particular one was three and a half meters long with all of their conversations throughout the whole day. And illustrated all illustrated. And at the end of it, these 16, 17-year-olds came up and photographed their own work.

MR: Wow.

AG: And it's like, hang on a minute, you know, you have done really heavy lifting and you've been excited about taking photographs of this work at the end of the day. And the holy grail of a young person's phone is their photo albums. And it's like, I don't believe this. So it kind of like went on from there. Then I started drawing for different people and carrying on sort of like, 'cause I mean, once you've invested, I mean, at that point it was about 2000 pounds.

MR: Now you have to use that stuff.

AG: Yeah. I've gotta use it. You know, even if it just benefits people. And I discovered I started putting things on LinkedIn about, you know, sort of like what I was discovering on the way through learning stuff still out, you know, building up relationships with a number of people. So, you know, Grant was one of those people on the way through and Patty as well.

And then there were other people. A guy called James Duro. Brilliant, brilliant chap. He worked in South Africa. He's just wonderful, wonderful man. And so, he's been doing it for 25 years. And Dario, I know you've had Dario on.

MR: Of course, yeah. Dario. I've had in on, yeah.

AG: Yeah. You've had him on. And he was just like really helpful. I didn't take part in his course. He just helped, which is just brilliant, you know?

MR: Yeah.

AG: So at some point I gonna be jumping in with him just to just pay for his course, say thank you for everything he's helped me with for free, you know?

MR: Yeah.

AG: And it was just been a right old journey. So in one sense, I've been doing this thing for 20, 30 years, and in another sense, I've been doing it for 12 months, which is bizarre. But I think for me, the most exciting thing was, you know, I did a very big gig on Thursday. So like just this last Thursday, gone, and they had sort of like these major, I mean, you've probably heard of BP and maybe Iceland. I dunno if you've heard of Iceland.

MR: Yeah.

AG: They had those kinds of people, really top-level people, and my top-level managers there at the same time. And there's a guy there from I won't say which big company it was, but the feedback you gave, I'm just gonna read this to you 'cause this actually kind of like encapsulates everything I'm trying to do. So remember, I'm trying to make art. So I'm coming from an artist's point of view. I'm coming from an artist's perspective rather than I'm trying to communicate.

And we can talk about, actually no, you do do art. Don't care what everybody says about how we are not an artist. Yes, you are. And I'll tell you why. But this is what this guy said to me. He said, okay. So he said this, "What became more apparent to me through the day with the benefit of using illustration to help capture and enhance the message, creating a new perspective, and helping people make necessary connections to understand the story."

So this was a day of virtual, nothing but data. And I was thinking, "How do I illustrate data?" And pictures were forming, so I just drew them. He said, "And although individuals may have taken away something different, it highlighted to me that a different perception of reality is often needed. People of the nervous system of any organization. Yet often the importance of people, their perception of reality and how they connect everything together is underestimated."

So what I do is I turn what people are saying into art. I will use as few words as possible to make it make sense so that it creates a bit of a dissonance. People have to solve the puzzle. Because when you solve puzzles, you get endorphins. You then, this is how Wordle works. You then share it with somebody next. You say, oh, I solved it. And they go, oh, I've solved it as well. And then they talk about it. Then endorphins work and community works, and then it becomes human.

And I realized at that point that from what I got the other day, I thought, that's what I'm doing. It's is interpretation, but even more so, it's interface between data and information, and even if it's told in story and creating an interface between that and people who are listening and watching, and it's making it more human.

So in a world of AI, when we're going faster and faster towards AI, me going in with my analog tools of paper on purpose, 'cause it's a choice I've made, makes it so that it makes that stuff more human. And the more human we can make things, I think that's the way forward for the future.

MR: I would think that because it's physical and it becomes more visceral, right? Like if you had done this on an iPad and even broadcast it on the same size screen, it might've had a similar impact, but there's something about that physical, like you can go up and touch it. Like those kids, those teenage kids can go up and touch their words that were drawn by you and maybe they can even feel the ink, right?

You know, like theres something tangible about it, right? Because the other thing is so much of our world is intangible, right? It's these photons and pixels and bits that we have control of, but they can change or they can disappear at any moment. And that's aren't real are real.

AG: One of real the big influences was when we had when Australian side paper or digital paper or digital. The team who's doing the school's work stuff sent me through one of their promo videos. And on it, one of the teachers, the head teachers from a previous session had said, what I love about this and this wasn't my drawing or anything else, this was pre-me getting involved, says that we spend so much of our time on iPads and screens to have the kids be able to come in and talk in and explore in an analog way. Is fantastic.

So when it was being suggested to me by one of the other team members, oh, let's just do it on iPad. It was like, but then we're just going back to the thing that the teacher said was not the unique selling thing. So I thought, I've gotta do it on paper because it has to be unique. And that's kinda like, just captured me.

I've always been, for the last 30 years, whenever the world goes in one direction, I go in the other direction on literally on purpose. So what are you all doing? We're not going digital. I'm not. So if somebody says, "Will you record this virtual? Will you do this virtual event for us digitally?" I'll go, "Nope." "We'll pay you money for it." "Nope." I'm only doing paper and I'm only doing in person. That's it. And I'm only doing it on big sheets as well. So if you don't like it, I'm not doing it.

MR: Interesting.

AR: Find your people, dig deep.

MR: There's plenty of people who will do that work and do it well. So I mean, they can't find somebody you can recommend them.

AG: I've got friends I can recommend, actually.

MR: I would think so, yeah.

AG: I do pass it on. That's if I can, anyway.

MR: It's good to know your boundaries because then you can be really clear and you can really lean into the specific elements that you've chosen to work with, right? That's pretty cool. And obviously, like you said, that you, you're not a typical churchman, right? You're the vicar for the people who don't usually go see vicars. So this fits right into your personality, I would think.

AG: Yeah. I lean into it. That and the autistic side I really lean into on purpose. And it's quite amazing how many people then talk to you about that kind of stuff and makes them realize that we've got a human face. Well, supposedly, anyway.

MR: It's funny. Your story of discovering graphic recording is not so different from my discovery of graphic recording. I started exploring Sketchnoting. I had no clue, just like you, that this whole community and "industry" existed. And this was, you know, 10, 15 years ago, I just stumbled onto it and realized, you know, the stuff I was discovering myself and building Sketchnoting totally matched the same principles that they were doing.

They simply did it large scale, in person. You know, maybe they were trying to be more neutral. A lot of graphic recorders just try to be interpreters, right? They don't leave an opinion. So yeah, that was a little bit different, but I mean, at the core of it, it was really similar.

And then, I don't know, was it 15 years ago? I was invited to come to the IFVP in Pittsburgh since I was nearby and spoke to that group and then became really good friends with lots of graphic recorders and see the relationship. But it's kind of amazing that you can have these ideas and sort of practice them and only later stumble into like, "Wow, there's like this community."

AG: Yeah. People pay for it. What?

MR: Yeah. It's pretty exciting.

AG: People pay for that. Okay, fine.

MR: I could do that.

AG: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I don't even need to think and I get paid for it. I'm great. You know, it's awesome. It's awesome.

MR: So well, you know—

AG: I just—

MR: Go ahead.

AG: Yeah. no, I was gonna say, I mean, I mentioned earlier, didn't I? That I mean it's a big, it's a big thing. Thing for me is the whole thing about, 'cause I remember when you say, say that, so my brain really bounces between one thing and another. I think that's what really helps me to be able to do what I do.

And with you saying about IFVP, I remember, there's not that much on YouTube, you have to really dig for it. But I found one of the recordings of one from about, I think about 2017 or something, and I think it was Kelvy Bird, was saying "No, we are artists. Stop saying you are an artists. "

And I was trying to think about why is it that so many people, you know, sketch notes as well, who come across and say, oh, it's not you, we're not artists. You're, and, and I think you've got your little certificate, haven't you, saying it's okay to suck at art.

MR: Yeah, I think it's great.

AG: And I think one of the problems is that I mean, you might disagree, happy for that. The problem is that people look and say art is realism. So what they do is because they can't draw something realistically. They say, "I can't draw, so I'm rubbish and I'm not even gonna try it again." Whereas I'm trying to teach people and say, well, actually no, do you know when you do your letters in a particular way, that's as you are? If you haven't noticed, you can go and buy prints of letters and put it on a wall.

So I'm coming from a very much an artist's point of view, and I'm saying, look what art does—I discovered this in the Tate Gallery. Do you know the Tate Gallery? You're familiar with that? So it's basically, it's all modern art and stuff and made-up stuff. I say, made up. Yes, it's true. And here was a huge canvas. I'm saying huge. I mean, we are talking feet upon, feet upon feet by feet upon feet upon feet upon feet of gray canvas in this white room.

And he'd walk in, it was battleship gray. And it was like, what's the point of that? You know, why, why. So abstract art, always ask why, seeing what it does to you. So abstract art is about what's it do to you. Abstractionism is slightly different, but what's it do to you? And people are going, "No, that's a bit rubbish. That isn't it? How can that be in any gallery?"

But if you went up and you read the little plaque, the little tiny plaque next to this huge canvas, it says, "This is not saying that this is art. It is saying what does art do to the room. What does art do to the room?" So in other words, the gray canvas, it says this gray canvas wasn't here, it just be a white room. Now the gray canvas is here. What's it do to the rest of the room? Ignore the canvas.

And you had all sorts of things. You've got people having conversations, deciding what it was, and you start to realize that the aesthetic of art is that it makes people talk. It makes you think different. It has an impact. In fact, I'm always saying that art is not meant to be hidden away in a secret gallery. Art is meant to be responded to. When I do a piece of art, I say, "What do you think?" And that person says, "Well, I think this." And I go, "Oh, why do you think that?" Because it's the conversation it initiates, which is the important bit.

And I think that that's the point that when we do our graphic recordings when we do our big physical thingies, you are creating conversation. You are not trying to just sort of like having—you're creating conversation. So whether that's just in letters or images, it doesn't matter. And then you get to the point of saying, well, actually, what is art? So art is a triangle, and you've got a symbol. You've got realistic, and you've got abstract. And art falls somewhere in that little triangle somewhere.

So if you look at my style, which is like I said, New Yorker style, we're looking more about the symbol. Somewhere in the symbol artistic kind of element. And the more—sorry, symbol and realistic. And the more realistic you do something, the more people will notice problems with your picture. They'll notice it's all squiffy, whatever. But the more fun you make it, the more cartoony.

I mean, I can draw one hand bigger than another to make a point. Make a point 'cause the hand's bigger. And that's great. 'cause People say, "Oh, it's just a style, isn't it?" And they won't try and say it's wrong. So what I'm trying to say here is that you can actually draw, but just have fun with it. Don't try and worrying that away.

I haven't drawn a car that looks quite like a car. Instead you you can draw a car and say, well, if it's got these elements on it, people recognize it as a car. It's a bit like a symbolic emoji of a smiley face. It's really just a circle, two dots and a curve, and that's it. But you arrange them and compose them into the right way., it's now a smiley face.

And I think that so many people in the graphic recording and sketchnoting and visual thinking world have got it into their heads that they can't draw. And so put up these barriers saying, "I can't draw, therefore I don't do art." And not realize that actually what they need to do is say, "Actually, maybe I create art in a different way, and I could explore it."

And if they explore it and say, well, I can do art, then it might open the floodgates for them to be able to explore new spaces to go into and relax a bit. So yeah, it's one of the things I do. I coach people and train people in art as well. So, if anybody wants to know, I'll help them.

MR: That discussion came up in Laiden with my friend Ben Crothers, who's from Australia. And he was challenging, like, you know, 10 years ago when I wrote my book, my big mantra was Ideas, not art. It was positioned as so many people had baggage around art that would stop them from doing anything whatsoever. And the solution that I had at that time was, you know, let's focus on the ideas. Don't worry about the art. That was the message I was saying.

Like, you can put a few elements together and you're producing communication. And then the problem is over time, if you hold onto that, you feel like, well then I'm not an artist. Exactly what you're talking about. So we discussed that maybe the phrase could change to something more like ideas than art.

So in other words, you begin building the ideas and then eventually you realize you're kind of moving into an art space where it is art and we can learn from artists to improve and level up and keep growing. So that was something we discussed right on that same track.

AG: Yeah. And it's about just practice, keep practicing and trying ideas out. And also, I mean, one of the things which I'm interested with sharing the work which I've been developing with other graphic recorders is they give you feedback and initially find that what they're feeding back is their perspective on what it should be. One of the things about training in theology and I've done for literally decades is reflection and understanding. Reflecting, refine, reflect, refine, reflect, refine.

So I've developed now a filter process and reflection process so that I can look at a piece of work I've done and decide what needs to change. And then when you are working on something, don't try and change everything all at once and learn to do everything all at once, but instead, look and say, "Well, do you know what? I'm gonna learn to do this one bit better in my style. And then when I've learned to do that bit, I'm gonna learn to change this bit and do that over and over in the next thing."

So you're doing iteration and you iterate fast, but you just do lots of them, but then you are changing. If you want to draw cartoon characters, you know, learn to draw eyes, learn to draw ahead, what's your style of drawing head learn to draw the three-quarter view. You know, really most of the time you're only face on side on and three quarter. That's all you need to do.

Then you can do this like the clever tilting of the head and everything else. But just do those three, first of all, learn how to do it. Draw a ball, learn to draw a ball, and then do the half circley things on them. You know, it's not rocket science. It's kind of fairly simple, really.

MR: Take it a bit at a time. It seems like it is a good way to approach it and not leaving it to be overwhelmed pretty easily with the totality of what you could do. So focusing on small bits and keep on working. And then eventually it will all come together as a unit.

AR: Well, if people see my work, they get gobsmacked. They go, "Oh, you are so fast and you are so good. I can't draw anything." It's like, Yeah, that's 'cause I've developed slowly and because I'm an illustrator as well. One of the things that if you look at an athlete and they do drills, they slow it down and they go through the process. So if you watch an athlete practicing their hard link, they kinda like do this weird goose step kind of thing as they're just programming their muscles to do it.

And I think that actually if anybody wants to learn to draw really fast, go really slow and learn what it looks like really slow. Go slow, learn to construct, and then do some little sprint exercises of how quickly can you do it, and then go back and do it again. Go slow and then sprint.

MR: It's kind of a slow building process. That's really good advice.

AR: Yeah.

MR: We're almost stepping into tips, but we want to talk about tools before we get to the tips.

AR: Okay. I go all over the place.

MR: You mentioned Neuland, you mentioned the graphic wall.

AR: Yeah.

MR: Do you wanna get into like that kind of stuff? And do you do personal small scale stuff and sketchbooks with pens? Are there any tools that you, especially like?

AR: Well, I mean I will grab any bit of ground as they're called, any bit of paper or whatever. Some days I'll use pencils. Some days I'll use a ballpoint pen. It just depends what mood I'm in, you know. I like a good bit of color. I mean, you find a lot of graphic recorders they will use one, maybe two shade colors 'cause they can't flick fast. But as I've done my work and my family have looked and said, "No, we like full color best,"

So I have to draw full color. And I thought how I'm gonna draw quick enough. And then last week when I was working with a neuroscientist and he was linking together the ideas I was saying to be able to feed back to the group as we were working with these 200 people. He said, "I wonder what to do while you are drawing." I said, "I know you can be my colorist".

MR: There you go.

AR: So I drew, and then he would color for me. So, this I'm gonna have going forward. I'm gonna have somebody coloring for me 'cause it's a heck a lot easier. And I'll just put a little bit in and say, "What color do you want?" "I want that in pink". "Really? Yeah. Let's go pink." So I kinda like put really bright colors in. So I try to reflect the brand, but then I'll throw in other colors at the same time. So I work in that color spectrum 'cause I'm an artist and I love color.

MR: So, well, if you look at comics, I mean, you have the inker, you have the penciler, the inker, and the colorist. They are separate in that sense.

AR: That's where I'm coming from. We were doing tools, weren't we? Ignore the digital, I hate digital apart from when I'm doing the book. So we won't even talk about them. Procreate, you all right. You know. Oh, have you seen Procreate Dreams? That's exciting.

MR: Yeah. That's the newest one, yeah.

AR: Yeah. But no, I work in pure paper, but there's other tools as well, which I've just got. So those people who end up breaking their backs, carrying those big boards and the stands and two rolls of paper in your ski boot or your document tube or whatever. It must weigh about 10 kilos. I've just bought myself a camera bag a big 100 quid for all my marker pens. All right. So there's a top tip. You save money on big boxes and things. A camera bag is brilliant for all those marker pens and all the s spare inks and everything else.

But put all those is I've just bought for myself something called a Rock N Roller, which I think have built for gigging musicians. You get all types of them, but basically this thing drops down to about a half meter, but it'll stretch up to about a meter and a half. It's got stands on it and you can put a bag on it, a big bag with ends on it. It's like this giant Ikea trolley thing and it'll take up to 500 pounds of weight.

MR: Wow.

AG: So I can put all this in my car, I can put the little Stanley my car and put everything else into it and then wheel it all in in one go. Genius. I'm a bit proud of that. So tools, get yourself a trolley and stop wrecking your back in 'cause five boards is about 30 kilo. It hurts.

MR: Yeah. And you're gonna need your back to be performing.

AR: Oh yeah. You wreck your shoulder. So camera back and a Rock N Roller trolley to push everything in.

MR: And Neuland markers. It sounds like you're doing more with that. Yeah, the best.

AG: Yeah. Neuland markers and the biggest paper you can find and the graphic wall and all the rest of it.

MR: Cool. Well, let's shift then to tips. I think we've already got one, don't wreck your back is probably tip number zero.

AG: Yeah, I would. Very important.

MR: So I request three tips from people. And I frame it as someone's listening who maybe they're in a rut, maybe they just need a little encouragement. What would be three things you would tell that person to help them move forward?

AG: Okay, three. Right.

MR: It's not limited to three. I mean, you can go beyond three.

AG: Oh, might be going a few hundred, actually. I've go to a thousand sets. Gain contact with me, I've got some training. I hardly can't charge anything at all. Actually, I mean, at some point I was trying to come up with it with it already, but I've not managed to get round to it, but I'm gonna be putting a course together next year.

It's gonna be subscription-based 'cause the cost of entry into this world of graphic recording is huge. It's really expensive. And so, I wanted people to have a start of a 10, if they liked it, and then they can go and buy a bigger course or whatever. So that's the intro to the tips. But I would say practice, the biggest thing of all is practice. So practice going slow, practice going fast.

But one of the best things you could do, I think is find the long-form videos on YouTube. There's plenty of them. I would hate to say this, but dump Ted Talks, they're great, but they're so fast. You just feel depressed because you can't keep up with them.

MR: Can keep up, not when you're starting.

AG: Yeah, I've tried and it's like you know and some of them aren't all that good. So instead, what I suggest is go and find the long-form videos especially those based around business because then you are learning at the same time. Okay, so that's the first thing. Graphic record, the business ones. Okay.

Second tip, and I dunno if this works in Android, but it certainly works on iPhone. When you've done your practice of your business tip, right. Take a photograph of it. I mean we always just take photographs of all the work because iPhone, if you then type into search, it will search for the words that are actually on your graphic recording. Did you know that? Do you use that or not?

MR: No, I haven't used that.

AG: Which is brilliant because then it means, especially if you remember to write on the YouTube name of where you found it when you want to reference back to find the information—there are loads of things on there as well like book summaries and things. When you want to reference it, you can say, oh, I remembered that it was the name of this guy who did it. So you type it into your iPhone and then it'll bring up the graphic recording.

MR: That's pretty cool.

AG: What's more, if you say you want, if you wanted a subject on sort of like abilities. So you wanted to find out, well what is it about—lots of people I've heard recently have talked about the word ability and I've now written it a few times, right? So you type the word ability in and it brings up all the graphic recordings you've done on ability and now you can link the ideas together. So that's really useful.

And related to that is if you're gonna become a professional graphic recorder, it's stuck with me the other day. So this is new thinking. I like to give people new thinking. We are the best networkers in the world. And there's massive value in putting people who can network. But because we are going in to deal with different companies and people, we can network people together. So that's another tip.

And the final one I think we would say, which is which is very useful it's a technique which is called something about, and I got this from the coaching when we were being coached. So the way that it went was that is that you were put into partnership with somebody and you talked to them and you were told, right, "Tell them everything about what recently happened." So you tell 'em the story.

And then the other person has to tell you back everything they can remember from what you said. And you go, "No, you didn't remember everything. There's bits you missed." They said, well do it again, another story, but this time the other person's gonna summarize it into two or three sentences. And so, this time you go, oh actually you got it quite right there, but you missed this bit of this bit.

I said, right, you're gonna do it one more time with another partner. And this time you're gonna go say something about and give them one word. Okay? So you do that so you're listening and you finally realize you can't remember everything. So all that stress I try to remember you can't do. And so you just relax and let the whole ideas just merge. And then you get the kinda like this one idea that seems to almost evolve in your head. And then you go, "Is this something about this?" And you say one word and the other person goes, "Yes, that's exactly it."

And it's the weirdest feeling. When you experience this, you go, "I just felt heard." Now if you take that and apply that to graphic recording and visual note taking and sketch noting, you suddenly realize that you can use so few words, and the fewer words you use the better, which is brilliant. What I tend to do in my process is—I've seen people write on post-it notes and stick them up and stuff, and I couldn't do that.

If you get a 2B pencil, so this is the people working on graphic recording on big walls, so I have a top tip for them here. You can actually write on the wall with a pencil and from a distance of about five, six foot away, no one can see the writing, they can't see it. You write quite big, no one can see it. So you don't even need to rub it off at the end. So you write it in pencil as you're going along.

So when people start, they're often, like I'm doing today, waffle mode. They're telling stories, this is my history, it's got nothing to do with the thing they're gonna talk about. And you don't wanna capture that so you just start write it and just write out what they're saying long form if you want, just so you can remember the bits they've said. 'cause something might be relevant in the future.

And then suddenly they'll say something and they'll say it slightly slower and slightly louder and you'll go, "Ah, that's important." And then you look back at the notes and now you can take everything they've said and turn it into an image and then you're off 'cause now you're drawing at the same time as listening. So you can do that and bring all those things together. I think creates a rather exciting space.

MR: Well that's a great tip.

AG: I do apologize. That was rather a lot.

MR: I think you ended up with like five or six, which is great.

AG: Yeah, I know. We didn't limit it, so.

MR: I told you, you could go beyond three. So you know, you went however that you want.

AG: Oh, I could waffle forever, I'm afraid.

MR: Well Andy, that's been so good to have you. How would we find you? What's the best place to find you? Do you have a website? Are you on certain social media, LinkedIn?

AG: Yeah, you can find me on virtually everywhere. Well, I'll say everywhere. You can find me on Instagram, you can find me on LinkedIn, and even my website and it's onegraydot. So spell the American way. So I'm gonna spell it out for you 'cause nobody gets this right for some reason I came up with it years ago. So it's O-N-E-G-R-A-Y-D-O-T, all one word, not separated.

And it's all onegraydot.com, LinkedIn onegraydot, and so it goes on. And it's gray. So what I do is I start off with a big blank wall and I put one gray.in the center of it and I say it's no longer blank, so you can't spoil it, now it's got one gray.in it. And I say, what do we do? We connect the gray dots, just one gray dot at a time. So all links in into salesmanship.

MR: Yeah. That's pretty cool. And you know, while you were talking, I just for fun, I did a little search and brought up your Facebook page and at the top you've got an image up there. And what it reminds me of, like you said, New Yorker, for me, it reminds me of Red Bull. You know, the Red Bull gives you wings, cartoons. Have you seen these? It's exactly like that.

AG: It's all editorial cartooning you say.

MR: Yeah, exactly.

AG: So it's all sort like of the same kind of thing really fast. So yeah, best place to find me for sort of like this kind of stuff is probably on LinkedIn and Instagram.

MR: Okay. Well, of course, we always good show notes.

AG: Facebook is Rev, Andy Gray, if you really wanna know. So Facebook's Rev, Andy Gray with an A.

MR: Gotcha. And we'll of course put show notes, links to everything that can find and that we can bother Andy to send to us and put into the list. So if you're curious to see more, you can click there and check it out. Well, thank you, Andy. It's so good to have you on the show. Thanks for the influence you're having in the world and with people who maybe don't expect it and need it. Thank you so much for all that work you're doing. I really appreciate it. And thank you for being on the show and sharing your story. It's been great to have you.

AG: Well, thank you.

MR: And for everybody who's listening or watching, this is another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, until next time.

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In this episode, Lena Pehrs shares how she explores and co-creates change management solutions with her clients with visuals.

Sponsored by Concepts

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Running Order

• Intro
• Welcome
• Who is Lena
• Origin Story
• Lena’s current work
• Sponsor: Concepts
• Tips
• Tools
• Where to find Lena
• Outro

Links

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Website
• LinkedIn
• Dario Paniagua
• Dave Gray
• Art Thinking by Amy Whitaker
• Mike Rohde's YouTube channel

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Neuland pens and paper
• Neuland fine tip markers
• Post-it notes
• Pilot fountain pen - fine tip
• Moleskine Notebook
• iPad Pro
• Apple Pencil
• Microsoft Surface Pro
• Sketchbook app
• Microsoft PowerPoint
• Adobe Fresco
• Procreate

Tips

1. Explore metaphors by taking creative or poetry classes.
2. Get good structure in your drawing.
3. Try and change format.
4. Have some fun.
5. Play with children. Draw with them.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer

Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast

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Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with Lena Pehrs. Lena, great to have you on the show.

Lena Pehrs: Thank you, Mike. Very excited to be here.

MR: I'm excited to have you because I've been following and chatting with you on LinkedIn for, I don't know, about two years or something like that, a year and a half, something like that.

LP: Yeah.

MR: And we have been having a good discussion, and I just thought you're just a great person to have on the show. So here we are.

LP: Thank you.

MR: I'd love to hear more about what you do and how you think about visualization in your context and the people that you work with. So, let's begin first by you telling us who you are and what you do.

LP: Well, I'm a management consultant. And I live in Stockholm, Sweden. Well, I do what normal management consultants do, but I do it with a lot of visual thinking and visualization.

MR: Great. So is that your secret superpower for your clients, would you say?

LP: Yeah, I think so. And I think that the analysis is really the image, so it works together that when you start thinking with visual thinking, you start to analyzing things in a different way. you start to see the world in a slightly different way. And I think it's really a means of getting better understanding and cooperation towards the goals you want to achieve. So it's really fundamental for change. Yeah, that is the secret sauce.

MR: I assume that you probably work on some paper or whiteboards or something like that. Is that the typical tool that you use with your clients? Or are you using iPad? What is the tool that you would use to help them and guide them?

LP: That would be a mix. I really prefer what happens in the room when you co-create together. And then I think that big white papers on the walls and pens, and like this tactile thing as well, really helps because for me it's important that the image, this visualization, it's not mine, it's the client's. So I really need their buy-in. It should be their pictures, their thoughts, their visual thinking really. So when you do it on paper, that really helps.

I always know that when two clients are standing in front of the wall and discuss, "Okay, this is the problem and this is how we're going to solve it." I know that, you know, it's their picture, but of course during the pandemic this wasn't available. So working with digital tools are a good way to—it's very practical. You don't really get the same creative buy-in, I think. But of course, you need to combine these. So for all these Zoom meetings, digital tools are good and they do the job. But if I can choose, I go for pen.

MR: Yeah. In person, maybe it adds a little something. I would think the other benefit, and correct me if I'm wrong, is by focusing on the paper and drawing your image, that the focus becomes on the paper, and maybe not even on yourself, you can become a little bit separated from the thing that you're doing. Rather than being about me, it's about the problem we're solving.

And that changes the relationship, I think, to the problem solving with clients with you. Or it opens it up for you to speak into that when they now detach themselves from the problem. The problem is there and we together try to solve it.

LP: Yeah.

MR: Yeah. Interesting. Interesting.

LP: And I think that in all these kind of discussions and workshops, it's always a challenge that ideas kind of fly up in the air. And when you manage to get them down on paper, then people can more build on each other's ideas. Which makes problem-solving so much better. So that is also like the process.

MR: Interesting. So basically, if I were to encapsulate what you're doing, you're bringing clients in maybe one or multiple, and then you're basically facilitating and guiding them to the wall to visualize their problems and then guiding them towards potential solutions to their management issues, whatever it is.

LP: Yeah.

MR: I think you mentioned when we chatted that you're heavily into change management. Am I right about that?

LP: Yeah.

MR: Which is difficult at best, right? Moving through change is really hard.

LP: Yes.

MR: So that's really fascinating. Maybe we can get into that a little bit more when we talk about projects you're working on. So I'm really curious now, how did you come to the place where you are now? When you were a little girl, did you love drawing? Were you able to keep drawing through school where maybe others stopped drawing? Like what is your story, your origin story for that?

LP: Yeah. I loved drawing when I grew up. So I would spend a lot of time drawing and painting and all kind of creative stuff. Just, you know, spending a lot of time in my teens just sitting at home and drawing, drawing, drawing. I really enjoyed it. And then I chose to go to university to have a master of science in industrial engineering. And even though I love that, I love maths, I actually love like solid mechanics and this kind of subjects.

But it was a world with a lot of right and wrong and linear thinking. So after five years at university, I couldn't draw anymore. That had killed my creativity in drawing 'cause then I try to draw something that was perfect and correct, and that's not just possible. So I stopped drawing and I did other kind of creative things like photography or baking or gardening and all those kind of things. But I didn't draw for almost 20 years.

MR: Wow. Wow.

LP: Yeah. And then I had a colleague that said like, "Well, Lena, why don't you join me for this? There's something called graphic facilitation, and I think since you like to draw, maybe should join me." And that's like 2014, I think. And I went to that course and I was like, "Yeah, wow, this is something. This is interesting."

But I thought I was a really a long—I didn't see how I would be able to incorporate that into what I was doing. How am I going to use this like in project management or change management. That was a big mental step for me. But I started drawing then and trying more and more. And then also outta LinkedIn, I kind of found Dario Paniagua—

MR: Oh yeah. Of course.

LP: —in Milan, and I was like, "Oh, someone doing this in Milan. I like Milan. I could go to Milan, we could have a chat." And then he was like, "Well, you know, Lena, I do these training courses." And I was like, "Okay, he might be skilled at this." So I was like, "Well, I'll give it a try. I can always learn something. "And then when I came to Dario and had like a two-days one-to-one training course, that was just amazing.

MR: Oh, I bet.

LP: Yeah.

MR: I would take that. That would be fun.

LP: Really a big eyeopener. Yeah. It was fun, and it was very challenging as well 'cause It's so much about—a lot of people talk about deschooling and, you know, change the way you think. And I think that is really the hard part of it. You need to start to think in a new way. And you don't do that from one day to another. It takes a lot of training and it takes a lot of quite a hard work.

MR: So that really was the part that opened you up to doing this graphic facilitation. So at that point, after you took Dario's intensive class, so was part of that having Dario help you think about how you integrate this visual thinking into your already a normal practice?

LP: Yes. So I've started—I see myself as really exploring the field and inventing it as I go and trying out different things. And sometimes, a lot of the times, the first years it was really the customers who invented the service 'cause They would come to me and say, "Oh, we have this problem and I know that you draw. Maybe could you help us facilitate this IT strategy?" I was like, "Yeah, we can give it a try."

And then quite often it's amazing that it turns out really in a mix of creative and very efficient. You get like fast forward in some processes and you reach decisions really much more quickly. And in the same time, like with this IT strategy process, well, it was so fun and people didn't want to leave.

And you know, the workshops normally you kind of lose energy during the day, but when we were drawing, this was so fun. It's like, okay. So, I don't always know beforehand what it will be like. And then sometimes it's turn out fantastic and sometimes it's turn out just like more normal.

MR: Normal.

LP: Yeah.

MR: That has to be exciting. Like, I've spoken to people before when I do sketchnoting, when I do any kind of live thing or speaking, like for some people, the possibility that it could go wrong is really scary and it pushes them away from doing it. But I encourage them, like, that's the exciting part that, you know, you could fail and then you actually deliver makes it a lot more satisfying, right? Or it forces you, puts you in a corner to deliver, right? And then your training comes out—

LP: Yeah. I think it's been very hard. I sometimes people tell you that, you know, speaking in front of people is one of the worst things, you know, people are having anxiety about. And I'm like, well, that's just because the option to draw in front of people aren't like on the list of things you can choose. Because for some reason that really scares us so much.

MR: Yeah.

LP: And it's silly. Why? 'Cause I mean, the purpose of it is for us to understand each other better. Actually a lot of the time, it's good if it's not perfect. Because if it's not perfect, people feel invited to be part of the creative process. They feel invited to contribute. And if it's too perfect, it looks like it's something finished.

So I found like for change management, it's good if it's like a drawing by hand and by pen. It's not perfect. It's not polished. It's something manmade and it makes people want to communicate which is really the base. I mean, if you want to change, you need communication, and that's it. You need a goal and you need good communication.

MR: I wonder sometimes if part of the fear of drawing in front of people is "They're gonna discover my real self." Like I'm revealing something that I can't—you know, like with words you can sort of hide a little bit, right? With drawing it's harder unless you practice—

LP: Since our brains are really wired into understanding and thinking in pictures. I think it's something with the connection between how we think and what comes out. So we have this picture in our mind, and if the thing on the paper doesn't come out as the picture in our mind, it's easy to think that it's something wrong.

MR: Yeah.

LP: And we don't have that connection with words, so we don't expect it to be perfect.

MR: That's true.

LP: And also, I think images are such a powerful tool for communicating. And when it's powerful, it's also more difficult to manage because it can go what we feel is in the wrong direction.

MR: Right. Right. That's a good point. So now what you're doing as your primary work is this kind of work where you bring clients into a room, ideally, with papers on the wall, hand them markers, and then you begin to draw the problem and then work through solutions with them.

LP: Yeah. Basically. So it can look a bit different. Sometimes it's a long like change management kind of program with the management team and the organization. And sometimes it's more like with a team and, you know, a two-day planning session for the year to come or something like that. But the base of it is creating visuals together.

MR: Where is a collaborative experience.

LP: Yeah.

MR: So one last question about this. Specifically, what happens to the drawings after you're done? Do you capture them in a document? Do you sit down and—or does everyone write down these solutions and then get out the calendar and plan when things will happen? I would think that you'd want to capture that moment and then immediately turn it into action, right? I would suspect that's really the end point is getting it into an action state of some kind.

LP: A lot of the time we would have like a structure and an idea for the final image. So the end result of a two-day workshop will be like a roadmap for the year to come. And a lot of clients would put that up on the wall in the office. And then of course, also having it in a digital version that you can have in your PowerPoints or wherever.

MR: Interesting. So then they would just always—like, if it's in the office where they are and they come in the morning with their coffee, they look on the wall and "There is the thing that we all worked on together." And you can see like your progress, right? That's pretty cool.

LP: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can add some post-its when you have finished things off and you can, you know, change and work with it.

MR: That's different than I think one of the challenges of graphic recording, you know, where you're capturing what someone's saying. A lot of times, like I've heard stories from people on the show where they found that all their work was like rolled up and in the trash, and they had to pull it on the trash, right. So, it's sort of like this thing, which was nice to have in the moment and, you know, it was just there as an entertainment or something.

So really, I think for visual thinkers, the stress is on how do we move it from just being this nice to have experience in the moment to actually being a map that you can look at and drive the company from, right? And make sure you're on track. Sounds like that's what you really do.

LP: Yeah. And I think it's important that it's something you need to solve an essential problem for the customer. That's when it gets to be something important and to make them part of it, the drawing so that they really feel that it's their drawing. And then I've had sometimes, like early like one of the first jobs I did when I started to use this method, I was just, you know, with the management team, we had interviewed them and I was just drawing the summary instead of writing it. And after this—and the drawing wasn't even, it wasn't good, to be honest.

MR: Pretty rough. Yeah.

LP: I don't think so. It wasn't just a rough drawing. And then we showed it to the management team, and some weeks later, the communication manager asked the team, "So what kind of material do you need now to go out to talk to all the staff? Do you now need brochures or do you need PowerPoints? What do you want us to provide you with?"

And one of the managers who had like the biggest division, he was like, "I just need Lena's picture." "Okay, but what do you need? Like PowerPoints?" "No, no, no, no. Can I just have that picture? I can take that picture and start to talk about this." And then if I had known that they were going to use this rough drawing for two years, I would have put in a lot more effort. But it was really something—because it was theirs. It was theirs thoughts and expressions and metaphors so they just took it and used it.

MR: That's interesting you've mentioned that. I've forgotten about this, but I had an experience like this many years ago where I sat and I sketchnoted someone talking about their vision. And I shared it with them, of course. This is when I was user experience designer, and they were talking about a vision for this medical product. So I sort of just listened and captured what I was hearing.

And the guy came back, I don't know, a month later or something like that, and his book, he had photocopies that he had printed and he carried them around everywhere. And he was referring to it. Like, that was the map. This is what I talked about. It's all captured, it's all right here. And he was using it just like that, right. It was the thing could speak against and say, well, then we're gonna—like, everything was mapped the way he was thinking, I just happened to listen and capture what he said.

So that was a really impactful for me. Like, wow. I just thought it was just, you know, throwaway. It was just me listening, right? But for him it's really meaningful, which is really cool. That's sort of woke me up a little bit in that moment. Like, okay, the things that I'm doing here are really powerful and useful. And I should remember that, you know even the most rough thing that I think could be pretty valuable for somebody else. Assuming again, that we're capturing their thinking and their ideas.

LP: Exactly.

MR: You're just being the scribe in that case. In that case it gets really, really super powerful.

LP: Yeah. When you kind of manage to mirror their way of thinking, that's really a useful tool. It's very powerful.

MR: And I do that for myself. So, as an example, I did a workshop last year, and in my bullet journal, I went to my favorite cafe. I got my favorite drink, and I sat down and I opened a blank spread and I just dumped everything I was thinking on that two pages and poured it all out. And that was basically the basis for the workshop. I basically laid that spread open, and did all my preparation and the other, like, I write a script and make a list of things and to-do lists, like everything was—but that was the basis, that two-page spread in my notebook, so I could see it and practice even in my own life too. So I can see how powerful it's for others as well.

LP: Yeah.

MR: That's a good reminder—

LP: Yeah. And it's also what I think that I'm like, "Why didn't I know this when I went to school? If I had known, that would have made life so much easier."

MR: Yeah. Yeah, I think so too. And that's a lot of the reason why I am so involved in educational spaces. Teaching this to teachers, integrating it into curriculum because kids naturally kind of do this, this is the way they express. So really, it's less about teaching the kids how to draw. I mean, that's one part of it, but a lot of it is protecting them to keep drawing.

So they make it as a tool, right? And then if they can hold onto that through university into work, that's really powerful. Something we didn't have, but we can then give that as a gift to the next generations behind us, so.

LP: Yeah. And it's also quite common that I have customers that are like, "Well, we have this strategy document and it's like 35 PowerPoint slides. We think we would need it as one picture. Can you do that?" And I was like, "Yeah. It can be done."

MR: That's what I do. Yeah. So on that point, I would love to hear just something in the moment, what's something you're really excited about working on now? You don't of course have to say the company name or any of that, but more like, what's the project that you're working on that you're excited about? Maybe it's this 35-page PowerPoint that you're converting into a single image or something. What would be something that's happening right now for you?

LP: Well, currently I'm working on writing and drawing a book about change management, and really trying to make the pictures, holding a lot of the message to really, I think—I'm very inspired by a book I read some years ago, "Art Thinking" by Amy Whitaker.

MR: Yes. I have that one. Yep.

LP: Yeah. And I think like it's time for art thinking in leadership, and that's somewhere I want to like, explore more, how can we really—I think there's a huge—we have so much change that we need to do in this world now so change management, we really need to get so good at this. And I think also that we need a lot of clarity of mind and we need a lot of cooperation. And I think visual thinking is really a very powerful tool in this area. So that is what I'm trying to get together in a book about how to manage change and how to do it with a lot of visuals.

MR: I would love to read that book.

LP: I will send you a copy.

MR: Yeah, we'll definitely we'll have to mention it to all the sketchnote people on the site and in the slack as well, so people can go check it out. That's great.

LP: Mm-hmm.

MR: Well, I wish you well with that. I know how difficult it is to write a book, how much work it is. It's a lot of work.

LP: Yeah.

MR: And then when you're done with the book, you're only halfway done because now you have to convince people to buy the book which is its own challenge, but I think you're up for the task. So I'm excited about that.

Great. Well, I think what I would love to do now is switch into what are the tools that you like to use? We'll start first with analog tools. And maybe this can probably pretty focus on your client work, I suppose, although personally I'm sure you use some things. And then we'll switch into digital tools that you like after that.

LP: For workshops, I'm a big fan of Neuland. So I use a lot of their pens and paper. And that's basically it. Well, post-its and stuff as well, but a lot of Neuland markers. And the refillables, it's really good. For personal, I'm a big fan of pens and books. I buy loads. At the moment I'm really enjoying drawing with a fountain pen, an ink, and combining that with watercolors.

And since I read your book again this spring, I started to buy these Moleskine books and started sketchnoting again with Neuland pens. And then I swapped over to more the fountain pen, and I use basically whatever. I think that is a good way to get new energy to buy a new pen.

MR: Yeah. That's a good point. "I must use this pen." So you'll find a reason to use it, right?

LP: Yeah.

MR: In a lot of ways. With your fountain pen, I'm assuming you must be using some waterproof ink if you're doing watercolor with it. I suppose, right?

LP: Yeah. Yeah.

MR: Is there a specific ink that you like better than others for that?

LP: No, I just bought some. I don't remember the brand actually, but I checked so that it would be waterproof.

MR: Okay. Yeah. I think one that I've heard of and I've not tried yet is Noodlers Ink. Which I guess has a variety of colors, but is waterproof? So that's one that I, I'm pretty aware of. What about which fountain pen have you settled on? Or are you still using a variety of them?

LP: I have just started this—so I bought a Pilot fountain pen, and I love it. So I'm thinking that I probably need several. This was—

MR: Of course.

LP: Yeah. I bought a fine tip, so it's really, really fine. And I'm like, I might need a medium one soon.

MR: Yeah. Is that the—

LP: But I love the—

MR: —is that the vanishing point? The pilot vanishing point? I think that's the one where the tip is more covered by the barrel, if I remember right?

LP: Mm-hmm.

MR: But I'm sure they have more than that pen in their collection.

LP: Yeah, I just bought it. I don't really know which one it was.

MR: So Lena, when you find out which pens and inks you have, you can just email me and I'll put it in the show notes because others might be thinking, "Oh, now I need a Pilot fountain pen and Ink," so that then they can get the same one you have and then they could benefit from your learning.

LP: I shall do that.

MR: Great. It sounds like you do watercolor. Is there any markers that you use with your sketchnoting as well? Like, do you grab Neuland markers and use those for sketchnoting? Or do you have some other tools when you're working in the Moleskine book?

LP: Yeah. No, that would be mostly Neuland.

MR: Okay. Those are raw.

LP: And then for my book—yeah. The fine ones at the moment.

MR: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

LP:: Yeah. But also working with my book, I bought like this markers on the gray scale, so I have 10 different versions of gray to work in black and white.

MR: That's great. Now what about digital? I assume that you must be doing some kind of digital work, but I don't know what all you might be doing. Are you using an iPad or some other tool?

LP: Yeah. I have an iPad Pro that I've had for six years. So I would draw some on that one, either with a pen or inspired by Dario, where I would like draw with my finger. But I also have a Microsoft Surface Pro that I draw with. I actually prefer the Microsoft Pen 'cause the nib is like slightly with a feather, so it's more—

MR: It's got a spring on it, I think. Right?

LP: Yeah. Yeah.

MR: Spring loaded.

LP: Yeah. So I work with that with like a sketchbook app.

MR: Yeah. That's a really common one. Been around for a long time.

LP: Yeah. Yeah.

MR: That's great. I played around with Microsoft Surface in the past and I kind of liked it. It was a nice environment, I think at the time because it was early in its life. There weren't really many tools available. I don't even know if, I guess Sketchbook probably was available for that, and that was probably what I used.

But I felt like there was a limited choice of tools on that platform, which I'm sure is not the case anymore. I'm sure there are many other drawing tools for that. I know Concepts I think works on the surface as well, which is a vector-based drawing tool, but does offer lots of control.

LP: But to be honest, I kind of, sometimes I work just with PowerPoint. I find PowerPoint a really useful tool. So if I'm just doing something, you know, for a presentation or something as simple drawing, I would do it right directly in PowerPoint. Yeah.

MR: Yeah. I would think that the built-in tools on the surface are also probably improved a lot too, so that you can write in the Office stuff, right. PowerPoint and whatever.

LP: Yeah.

MR: That's really—

LP: But if I want to make a drawing that it's more complex, I would actually do it on paper and then use my scanner.

MR: I see.

LP: And then maybe add something in the sketchbook. But otherwise I think pen and paper is really easier for me, quicker.

MR: So now is there a tool on on the iPad that you prefer when you do use the iPad?

LP: I think I've been using like Procreate and also Adobe Draw.

MR: Okay.

LP: Or Fresco is the new name for it, isn't?

MR: Fresco, yeah. I think so. Yeah.

LP: Because sometimes then I think it's a bit of a problem for me that I change what app I use and I forget how to do it. And then it's like, "Okay, you need to do this because we need it vector based." And then I use another app, so I'm all over the place there.

MR: So almost need to like pick one and stick with it and know it really well, I suppose.

LP: Yeah. Yeah.

MR: Interesting. So now that we've done tools and it sounds like you've got quite a variety, let's talk a little bit about tips for listeners. Usually, the way I frame it is, imagine someone's listening, they're a visual thinker of some kind, maybe they're in a place where they just need a little encouragement. What would be three things you would encourage them with in their visual thinking work?

LP: Yeah, I think, and of course it depends on who it is and where they are in this journey to really work with visuals. But I think for me, one really important key is metaphors. It's really the way we understand the world and it affects so much on how we're thinking.

So if you want to explain abstract concepts and different like specialties, metaphors, or really where you need to work and if you want to—'cause I think this is a part that has been really hard for me, I've had to put a lot of energy into really start to think in metaphors. And I think if you want to improve that and want some new energy in that like you can take a creative writing class 'cause they use this a lot. Or you can actually like start to read poetry.

And of course, you can also, like Dario has this excellent online content with ideas and methods on how to develop metaphors. So that I think is really key to make your visuals explain things and to tell a story. And I think also really, a key thing in change management is to tell a story. So explore metaphors. And then I think this spring, I've spent a lot of time online where I think there are such a lot of great thinkers that share a lot of good material.

And I think another key is to get good structure in your drawings and in your discussions. And I think that like Dave Gray, with his visual framework. I think that is just amazing and so useful. So if you want to get inspiration on how to structure a problem and then structure a drawing, then definitely check that out.

And also if you're stuck, and I must say, because this was so fun when I started to look at your YouTube videos and workshops ,I think to change the format. 'Cause I also think that the format is really a base for how we think. This format you choose supports your thinking. So swapping format can be really energy boosting.

So when I went from large papers on the wall and I started like, okay, I'll buy a Moleskine and do the sketchnoting kind of approach, I was amazed that something happened with my brain. I was like, "Wow, this is so fun and this is so—and I can do this and that." So to try and change formats actually, I think can do wonders.

MR: So of remap yourself to a new format. It's a new challenge too, right? Because you have to take the things, you know, and the other thing. Like, for me, it would be the other direction, right? So, whenever I have to do large format, which I did last spring, it was a real—it was a fun challenge. Like I was excited, like how will I solve this, right? I'm a problem solver.

So when I go into this, like I've got this big board, like I have to rethink all my orientation and my proportions, everything, which marker I'm using, how many times do I need to draw to get the stroke as wide as I want, right? Those are new problems, but it's fun to see it. You know, we have this immediacy in the work we do that you can immediately see whether it's working or not, and then tear off the page and then start again and learn from it, right?

So same thing in the other direction, right? You probably had to take all these large format ways of working and then you press them onto the page, which is probably fun in a different way.

PL: Yeah. Yeah. And liberating in some way to take away some pressure, I think there.

MR: Yeah. Have some fun.

PL: Yeah. That is also always essential and really a key to be able to be creative, have some fun, but sometimes when you're standing there and you're at the client's site, it's not easy, but absolutely.

MR: That could be your fourth tip, have some fun.

PL: Yeah. Yeah. That always. And also I think another good tip there is go play with children. I think that is a great way to have some fun and boost your creativity. Draw with them. They're fun.

MR: Yeah. It's fun to draw with kids. I draw with my kids. Probably not as much as I should, but I always enjoy drawing with my son especially, we make comic books together, so it's really fun. He'll do part and I'll do part and we need to do that again in summer, so.

PL: It's great. Mm-hmm.

MR: Well, Lena, it's been so good to have you on the show. Already we've gone through the show and here we are at the end. I can't believe that the time has gone so fast. But thank you so much for the work you're doing and how you're impacting the people who are around you. We so need you in the world to do that. Thank you for your work and for your sharing here, so others can be inspired and maybe get some ideas for ways they can change or improve the way they work.

PL: Well, thank you, Mike. It's been really a pleasure, and I'm really a huge fan.

MR: Well, thank you so much. Thank you. And next time I'm in Sweden, I will certainly reach out and we'll have a coffee at least. Maybe do some drawing together. That would be fun.

PL: That would be amazing.

MR: Yeah. Well, for everyone who's listening or watching, this is another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Till the next episode, talk to you soon.

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Sketchnote Lab is Mike Rohde’s space designed to bridge the gap between sketchnote theory and practice. You don’t need to be an artist to think visually. Join Mike and learn to use sketchnotes to clarify your thinking, solve problems, and move forward. Learn more about Sketchnote Lab.

Mike is the author of The Sketchnote Handbook and The Sketchnote Workbook, bestselling books that teach regular people how to start sketchnoting and build a regular sketchnoting practice.

He founded the Sketchnote Army and hosts the Sketchnote Podcast, where he interviews visual thinkers to understand what makes them tick.

Mike teaches recorded, live, and in-person workshops to accelerate your sketchnoting practice and provides personalized coaching for your specific visual-thinking challenges.

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©2026 Mike Rohde, Sketchnote Lab

In this episode, we dive into Luke Kelvington’s fascinating world as the commander of a submarine. Luke takes leadership to a whole new level by mixing in visual thinking and sketchnotes to shape how he and his crew make better decisions. If you're curious about how creativity plays a role in leadership, especially on a submarine, this podcast is a fun journey into Luke's underwater world.

Sponsored by Concepts

This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android.

Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework.

Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting.

SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try.

Running Order

• Intro
• Welcome
• Who is Luke Kelvington?
• Origin Story
• Luke’s current work
• Sponsor: Concepts
• Tips
• Tools
• Where to find Luke
• Outro

Links

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Luke on LinkedIn
• Proceedings of the United States Naval Institute Magazine
• Luke’s Bio - Submarine Pacific Fleet Website

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Notebook
• Sketchnote Idea book
• Neuland Bikablo Icons
• Neuland pens
• Ballpoint pens

Tips

1. Practice and take courses.
2. Use tools to perfect your work.
3. Share your projects.
4. It's okay to wait to be inspired.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer

Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast

You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source.

Support the Podcast

To support the creation, production, and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with Luke Kelvington. Luke, it's so good to have you on the show. Thanks for coming.

Luke Kelvington: Oh, thank you for the invite, Mike. Appreciate it.

MR: So we got connected through the Cleveland Guardians. We both have a connection through that. And learned about your sketchnoting skills, and you sent me samples and I was like, "Oh, this is cool. We should have you on the show to talk a little bit about your experience and the way you look at it with the people who listen."

So I'm just gonna jump right into, why don't you tell us who you are and what you do, and then go right into how did you end up in this place? Even go back to when you were a little kid, were you drawing for your whole life? You know, was it a late development? I'm really curious to hear how it all fit into what you're doing now.

LK: Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah. I'm from Akron, Ohio, son of a third-generation mechanic. I'm pretty sure had my name been Earl Risk Kelvington IV, that's what I'd probably be doing. But I got into the Naval Academy in '19 — or 2000 and joined in 2001. And I've been in the Navy ever since. So I'm a career naval officer, submariner. I'm on my fourth submarine.

MR: Wow.

LK: I'm the Captain of the USS Pennsylvania Gold, which is a ballistic missile submarine out here in Banger Washington

MR: Hmm.

LK: Yeah. So as far as, you know, as a kid, I always liked, you know, drawing fonts. I would decorate the upper right-hand corner of, you know, my math homework, and you know, just different designs. And so, I've always just enjoyed just doodling. You know, I was a rugby player, art was not always at the forefront of what I was doing. But I will say that I had a math teacher in 7th grade, and he would give us certificates if you get a hundred on a test, and he would write out your name in calligraphy.

And in 7th grade, you know, I was like, "I'm gonna learn how to do this." So, you know, I learned calligraphy in middle school. And so, you know, that and fonts has always been just something I've really enjoyed doing. And I'll say that I've been challenged in the past by my mentors to make sure that I'm always doing something professionally with respect to journaling.

And when you know, COVID happened, and I got into this space with the Cleveland Guardians, and then I watched your presentation, and I was like, "Wow, it's just something I didn't even know I needed." And the simplicity of you the messaging and how you were able to show, "Hey, as long as you can do these shapes, you know, the idea's not art mantra.

As long as you can do these simple shapes, you could really convey a message. And even if it's just with yourself and your own journal, trying to figure out how to better yourself or your people," I found that, you know, I got really excited about it and started doing it.

And what I found was, I was listening to my leaders speak. So I was on an admiral staff, and so, I started Sketchnoting when he was giving his speeches. What I found was by sharing that with him after the fact, and proving to him that his message was simple enough to be able to capture an imagery and not really, you know, hard things to convey, that he was being very effective in his communication style.

So my job as a leader on a submarine is to design people's decision space. And if I can clearly communicate that in different manners, and one of which is through art. So for instance, last week I have these giant post-it notes, and I have my — we'll talk about nuance of pens later. But I have my Neuland pens, and I'll draw quotes and just simple designs.

This week was, the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack. I found on the noun project this, you know, this very simple drawing of a wolf. And it's just the imagery as they come in. It's not just words on a page. It's got a little bit more to it and a little bit of depth. You know, just a little bit of shading makes it look and makes it pop and makes it something that I think really resonates.

That Cleveland Guardian series, you know, we've been exposed to a lot of amazing leaders. You know, Dan Coyle, James Kerr, you know, Jay Hennessy's just done a fantastic job of bringing these people together. And James Kerr, in his book "Legacy," you know, he says, "Shrewd leaders invent a unique vocabulary of shorthand for communicating new cultural norms and standards using specific words, phrases, mottos, and mantras." And I would argue art is part of that.

Then using metaphor, the leader brings the story to visceral life across as many channels as possible. And in that way, the language becomes the oxygen that sustains belief. And in this way, leaders rewrite the future. You know, so using that metaphor and using the imagery, I think is a way to be very effective as a leader.

With my crew, my message is very, I think, simple. It's to build trust, and then, you know, I break it into character and competency, there's something that can resonate with them. Choose growth, and then to use your best punch.

And I've used that, "use your best punch" in this boxing analogy now and using some of the imagery from that to I think — you know, I've only been in command for about three months, but I think starting to build a culture where that can that resonate. And then you can use other things, like, you know, "what does it mean to be in someone's corner?"

As a coach, as a mentor, as someone that you know, is able to throw in the towel for you, when you see that they're struggling and they don't even know that they need the help. So, you know, being able to just effectively use imagery in order to either help you figure out how you wanna convey it.

So like, I don't share all of my notes, you know, with my guys and girls, but you know, making sure that it's a way for me to help frame again, how do I give them the left and right boundaries and then create that imagery to make sure that we're heading in the right direction.

MR: That's really cool. I'm really curious. You made a statement earlier, you said something about decision space. I would really like you to expand a little on what is a decision space, and then secondarily, how are you — it sounds like you're using this imagery as a way to frame or put boundaries on that decision space.

LK: Yeah. So decision space, I talk about the fact that, life is a choose your own adventure. And so as I get you know, 18 to 20-somethings trying to make sure that we teach them what right looks like. So some of that is in either words or pictures. Other instances is actually showing them on the job training of what that really looks like. So the idea is, as they're more junior, the constraining space is the left and right boundaries.

MR: Smaller.

LK: Yeah, are smaller. So again, if you can either use imagery or figure out how you are gonna frame your discussion with them and you can work that out, you know, what are the left and right boundaries that I want to convey so that you can then, and after the fact, "Hey, did I clearly communicate that?" Because honestly, when someone messes up -- I'm a huge proponent of human error. I think that, we are going to make mistakes. And it happens all the time.

You know, I give 'em the example. I say, "Hey, on your phone, how often do you hit the wrong button and you have to back or auto correct." And that stuff happens in real life. And just your normal day-to-day processes. So, if we can accept that human error — 'cause I think, again, our tendency is to run, hide, cover, and blame. That's kind of where we go. But how do we change that so that they feel safe enough to come in, tell you that they messed up?

And then making sure that there's enough of environment that's safe where they can go ahead and admit those mistakes. So that's kind of what I'm talking about there with the decision space. And again, sometimes it's with words, sometimes, again, in your journal, it's a way to, how do I best convey this message to my people?

MR: It almost seems like what you're trying to do, the way I read it is, they can't see inside your mind and what you're thinking, but you can use words and images and things to basically help each one of those individuals build that decision space in their mind to know where the edges are. And know, like, okay, I'm at the edge of, "I need to talk to somebody before I proceed with this." Or, "This doesn't feel right. I need to talk to someone and make sure something feels hinky about this, I better check."

Like, I'm imagining you're helping them to build it for themselves so they can — 'cause then that makes themselves sufficient. And then I guess the second thing is by making that safe environment where they can say, "Hey, captain, I screwed up. I did this." They're more likely to learn from it, right?

If they feel like they're gonna get beat up over it, then that encourages people not to tell you. And then you can ask something that can be a runaway problem that could build into some huge problem, right? You wanna catch it early before it becomes out of control, I would think.

LK: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think being able to look at yourself first, "Hey, did I give you the time, the tools, the training to do it right." And when they see you with the humility to say, "Hey, I'm going to look at myself first before I go and try to put any kind of blame on you." I think that that helps us build that psychologically safe space to make sure that they do come forward. 'Cause In my world, troubleshooting a human error and a very technical problem is, you know, if you put the wrong number in, we need to know that, so.

MR: Yeah. That's pretty cool. That's really interesting the way you're using it in that. Now you mentioned too that you do journaling. Can you tell a little bit of detail about how you've integrated, I guess, visualization of some kind? Maybe it's rises to the level of sketchnoting in your own journaling practice, and how has that helped you?

LK: Yeah, so I will, a lot of times when maybe in, even in social media, I'll see something like, Adam Grant puts out a quote, you know, so I'll snap that, and then later on I'll take that quote, and then go into my notes and try to make it something that sticks, right? I mean, you wanna make it so that it's something that's sticky. And then, you know, once you kind of have that confidence, sharing that with others.

I'm a SEC football fan, and I was watching SEC Media Day a couple weeks ago, and Kirby Smart was talking and then Nick Saban, and I was like, "Holy smokes, this is a leadership 101. I need to capture some of this stuff." So, you know, capturing it quickly. You know, we can go into some of the advice stuff later, but make sure that you're able to make some shorthand notes off to the side, and then you can figure out how do I want to present this, you know, in a clear manner that I want to capture and then share in the future.

So, you know, I've got my journals, they're chronological, but, you know, I'll put in the front of those journals like a page number with something I wanna make sure I go back to. Yeah, and it's something that now it's sticky, it's there, it's an image. I can tell you, I do not have a photographic memory, but I can see, you know, an image on a page, and then I can go back to it and say, "Okay, this is —" It's gonna be something I can go back and say, "Hey, this is gonna be something I wanna apply to this situation.

Because, you know, as Mark Twain says, right, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes." And so being able to go back to those and say, "Hey, this is an effective message that I now can then share with my people." So, you know, I've been collecting quotes and reading books and putting those things together for really the last 18 years of my career. And for this moment to be able to pour the stuff out on my people.

MR: That's cool. So it does seem like — the things I take away from that are knowledge and insight can come from any place, right? You're watching SEC Media Day, you're getting stuff from, you know, head coaches to these football teams who are leaders, right? They have to deal with leadership. So even like kids and other people can bring you that. So being aware that knowledge can come from any place and to be ready. So that was one message.

And then the second message was, is when you place it in your journals that you have created in an index, so you can find it again quickly because you have a feeling like, you know, "This might be valuable for my team in the future, I need to be able to quick reference that thing and pull it back."

And then the third thing was interesting too, is you said you can see it in your mind. Like that's the way — the challenge for me is I could see it in my mind, and I know I did that thing and then, you know, I probably need to work on my organization of my books so that I can find stuff more easily. Maybe they need to be digitized, I don't know.

But I can definitely like, "0h yeah, I can close my eyes and imagine that sketchnote that I did." And a lot of times the where and when and details all around it. Now finding it in the book is the challenge. So that's my thing that I gotta deal with, but.

LK: Right. Yeah.

MR: Interesting.

LK: And you know, when we talk about tools, because of the nature of my job, I typically don't have my a cell phone, I don't have much when it comes to digital, so a lot of what I have to do is just on pen and paper. You know, so I have not gotten into — I recently did buy the surface pen to try to try the stuff out the digital world, but a lot of times it's just not something that I can take with me.

MR: Yeah, exactly. I think that feels like a real natural place to shift into the tools you do use. Are there specific pens that you like when you do journaling, are there certain books that you like? You talked about big sketch or big sticky notes and Neuland markers. So talk a little bit about kind of the tools you use and why you like 'em.

LK: Yeah. For the most part the journaling, I'll just use the normal, just regular you know, notebook. I do have your the Sketchnote Ideabook as well.

MR: Oh, cool. Nice.

LK: So, you know, I have one that I'm usually in a chronological order going through. And then I have a couple others that where I'm practicing. So, you know, I got the Bikablo Icons from Neuland, so you can kind of go through and practice the different emotions. I even have a little book that was by — it's my daughter's book. It's how to draw, you know, and it's just simple little things.

So, you know, working on that inventory of icons is really, I think one of the things that's helpful to have kind of a separate journal that I build that inventory and that muscle memory of what those — just like you say those simple shapes, but then you just add a little bit of depth and it just really it pops. I don't know how to better describe it. But yeah, I love the Neuland pens. And I like the fact that I can reload 'em and and the fact they don't bleed through the paper, I think that's the other piece's of it.

MR: Yeah. That's the best.

LK: On a day-to-day, I just have like a ballpoint tool as one of my go-tos, you know, in my uniform. 'cause the Neuland’s don't have an easy way to, you know, kind of stuff it in my uniform there.

MR: Yeah.

LK: Like I said when it comes to — I do it for sermons too, so every Sunday I've got a little sketch note of whatever that sermon was, but off to the side as, you know, saying his outline, I'm putting that on a separate piece of paper just to kind of sketch out, "Okay, this is what it was."

And then, you know, I've done a couple of your workshops, talking about different layouts, like what's gonna fit best for this particular sermon and making sure that I — and you're gonna make mistakes especially if you're just using pen and paper, but figuring out inventive ways to hide those mistakes is always a fun challenge as well.

And then a lot of times, I'll snap a picture of it and share it with my mom or you know, just — again, just being willing to share that stuff and get some feedback, and it seems to resonate pretty well with others. Yeah, when it comes to simple icons the Noun Project is definitely an easy one.

MR: Great resource. Yeah.

LK: And honestly, I'm also not shy about tracing an outline of it, you know? I'll put the phone behind it and trace the outline, and —

MR: That's a good idea.

LK: — you know, as I'm working on trying to, you know, build the repertoire of icons, but you know, sometimes I just can't get the proportions right so I'll just draw it behind there and trace it through, and it still looks pretty good. And then when I was in my job, in my previous job on that Admiral staff, I just had 5 by 8 note cards, and that would be my method of capturing those things, especially if I wanted to share 'em with them.

MR: Yeah. It's interesting, like 5 by 8 note cards, I've got a big stack of them. Well, I got smaller ones right here. I took to a conference years ago. Basically, we said, "Well, here's what we need." And I wanted 5 by 8 card stock, so they got eight and a half by 11, cut it in half, and handed it out to all the students in that workshop.

In person, I was in Philly, and they had all these leftover cards. So I took them and I was like, I really like these are really nice. You know, it's kind of a nice, you know, you don't feel too precious about it. If you screw it up, you just recycle it, start with another one, you know, it's independent so you can kind of move it around. And so that's kind of cool that you use that.

So when you're on the boat, are you able to take — it sounds like you don't take technology, so you take paper and pen or something, or do you take anything when you go on the boat, or is it pretty much get left behind?

LK: I'll take my pen and paper, you know.

MR: Oh, nice.

LK: And my journal. Yeah. So, again, I use it as a leadership journal, you know, capture things you know, obviously nothing classified, but —

MR: Sure. Yeah.

LK: But yeah, just building on those lessons and making sure that again, as I'm trying to visualize how I want to present information, one of the easy ways to do that is if I can — I'm convinced that if I can make it a simple image, then if I can communicate that image with words, then I think I'm winning there to be able to build what that — bringing that story to visceral life like James Kerr says.

MR: There's been a lot of talk about story too. Like we as people, if we see or hear story, if it's well done, it can be almost as though we experienced it personally. So that visceral life is actually like a real thing. Like, you can almost imagine, like in movies you've seen, if you really resonate with it, it could feel as though you experienced that yourself. And you can learn lessons from those experiences. Like, "Yeah, don't do that. Probably, this doesn't feel right. " You know, you're building knowledge from that.

So when you take your journals on the boat, do your do your crew see that? What do they think? 'Cause I saw, you know, you put it up on the screen, it's got stickers all over it and, you know, looks kind of cool. They're like, "Oh man, he is carrying a notebook." Does that seem unusual to them? Do they say anything to you about it? Or how do they react to that, if at all? Maybe they don't.

LK: I think that when I do show 'em the images, I think they do enjoy it, but it is pretty typical for, you know, senior officers to carry around at least some level of a notebook, but to me it's teaching them that, you know, that professional journal that you're learning and making sure you're capturing these lessons. 'Cause people learn lessons from good leaders, and they also learn them from poor leaders too. So making sure that even, you know, you capture both the good and the bad.

'Cause You can say, "Well, I really don't want to do it that way." You know, so when they get in charge, and making sure that they're taking things with them. The Navy is not something that is always a career for everyone, but making sure that those lessons that you learn and you've got something to be able to after the fact digest.

My engineer tour was a very a challenging tour. It was, over three yearS, but the notes that I took during that tour, I was able to then really digest. I ended up writing an article and getting it published in the Naval Institute Proceedings. I would've not been able to really digest that tour and clean all those lessons if I hadn't captured those throughout the tour. Just those little nuggets things I wanted to do better, things I learned. Yeah.

MR: It seems to me too, the other lesson I take away from what you're just talking about is, and this probably from the beginning too, is this idea of you can't just, you know, at the end of three years, like go back and reflect on everything and take every learning because you're gonna forget a lot of it. So it's really important that you are documenting this stuff as it's happening in little micro chunks and letting it build over time.

So you're building this experience, and it's a way of capturing like your lessons, because you know, as much as you'd love to think, you can go back after three years and reflect, and you could do dress and meaning, but having that reference would be huge. So that would be an encouragement for those listening or watching to maybe start carrying a, carrying a book around that they document stuff in the way that you do as a valuable professional tool.

LK: And sometimes it can just either be a small image or just a few words, and that'll trigger, you know, that event so that you can make sure, yeah, You can capture it and use it in the future.

MR: So we've covered your life story. We've covered tools. We're at the point where I would love to hear your encouragement in tips. So the way I frame it is someone's listening, watching their visualization person of some kind, and maybe they feel like they're in a rut or they just need some encouragement. What would you tell that person In three tips? Or you can go beyond three if you want to.

LK: Yeah, I think the first is you know, the practice, you know, building those icons so that later when you're stuck you can open up that other journal and take a look at those items. Or I would encourage 'em to, you know, take courses kind of like what you've offered, just to give 'em a little bit more courage or a little bit more just tools.

MR: Confidence maybe.

LK: Yeah, Confidence. Yeah, Confidence is the word I'm looking for there. That it is just simple images that could really resonate with just a little bit of practice. But then I think also you know, using those tools like the Noun Project and not being afraid to, every once in a while trace it out if it's, you know, to make it look good. I think sharing it with friends has been something that I've really enjoyed and letting them give you a little bit of feedback. I think that that will give them some more encouragement that it's something that people enjoy.

And then it's okay to wait, I think, to be inspired. You know, my journals are not full. Every page doesn't have images on it, right? So making sure that you, you keep the practice of journaling, and even if it's just the story and things that happened, and then as the inspiration comes and that you say, "Hey, this is something I really want to capture with an image." You know, making sure that you keep that muscle memory of carrying that notebook around.

And then that way when — like I said the other day, watching that SEC Media Day was like, "Wow, I need to capture this. And I think this would be something that I could then share with friends and we could get a conversation going." I move a lot, so connecting with others, if you send 'em an image and say, "Hey, let's talk about this. This is really exciting. This is something I just heard." It can help build that conversation. And so, it's not just, "Well, how you doing? Oh, I'm doing fine." so it's not just the family stuff, but it's also —

MR: Go deeper. Yeah.

LK: Yeah.

MR: Cool. That's really cool. I love those tips. Thanks for sharing those. Well, you know, you're probably on a boat some part of the time, and maybe you don't really have social media stuff. Is there anywhere you would send people to learn more about you? Or is there anything online that they can even find? Is there anything that we can send people to?

LK: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn. That's the easiest way professionally to reach out to me.

MR: Cool.

LK: I do have a couple articles that I've written in the U.S. Naval Institute proceedings so they can find a couple pretty, you know lessons there that I've captured. But yeah, other than that, my bio is on the submarine Pacific Fleet website, if they really wanna see that, but.

MR: Go dip.

LK: Yeah.

MR: Cool. Well, we'll make sure and get a link to your LinkedIn. We'll put that in the show notes and maybe we can have you find links to your article. So if people wanna read those, we can include those in the show notes too. But hey, Luke, this has been great. It's really been fun to hear — you know, when I started this podcast and never thought that I'd have a commander of a submarine talking about sketchnoting. You know, just the world is crazy. You just never know where it's gonna lead, you know.

LK: Yes, sir. Absolutely. It's been an absolute pleasure. I'm blessed to have been part of that Cleveland Guardian speaker series to get to know some of the awesome people like you, Mike, and yeah, it's been a pleasure.

MR: Well, thanks, Luke. We appreciate you. Thanks for your service. And for everyone who's watching and listening, this will be another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until the next episode, talk to you soon.

LK: You could make it Navy, you know, just for this episode.

MR: That's true. Yeah, the Sketchnote Navy. Never thought about that. Yeah. That's funny.

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Sketchnote Lab is Mike Rohde’s space designed to bridge the gap between sketchnote theory and practice. You don’t need to be an artist to think visually. Join Mike and learn to use sketchnotes to clarify your thinking, solve problems, and move forward. Learn more about Sketchnote Lab.

Mike is the author of The Sketchnote Handbook and The Sketchnote Workbook, bestselling books that teach regular people how to start sketchnoting and build a regular sketchnoting practice.

He founded the Sketchnote Army and hosts the Sketchnote Podcast, where he interviews visual thinkers to understand what makes them tick.

Mike teaches recorded, live, and in-person workshops to accelerate your sketchnoting practice and provides personalized coaching for your specific visual-thinking challenges.

He is the illustrator of bestselling books like REWORK, REMOTE, The $100 Startup, Honest SEO, The Culture Playbook, and The Future Begins with Z.

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©2026 Mike Rohde, Sketchnote Lab

In this episode, Elizabeth Chesney shares her approach to teaching design concepts coupled with handwritten notes to help her subjects understand how design concepts work and why they work.

Sponsored by Concepts

This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android.

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Running Order

• Intro
• Welcome
• Who is Elizabeth Chesney
• Origin Story
• Elizabeth Chesney's current work
• Sponsor: Concepts
• Tips
• Tools
• Where to find Elizabeth Chesney
• Outro

Links

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Elizabeth’s Website
• LinkedIn
• Instagram
• Comic strip camp case study

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Uniball black rollerball pen
• Sharpie highlighter
• Kraft brown paper
• Ottergami dotted notebook
• Samsung Galaxy Tab
• Samsung Pen
• Concepts

Tips

1. There is no standard.
2. Create playbooks or scrapbooks of your work.
3. Get away from your desk. Take a break.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro

Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast

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Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with Elizabeth Chesney. Elizabeth, how are you doing today?

Elizabeth Chesney: I'm good, I'm good. It's evening here in the UK, so it's quite relaxed and we've got a bank holiday, so it's even more relaxed.

MR: Good, good, good. Well, you'll be laid back and ready to answer all kinds of questions and let us see inside you, the way you think. So I brought Elizabeth on because I follow her on Instagram. I don't know how we crossed paths, but I'm glad we did. And she does a lot of sketchnoting that she shares online, but also taking design concepts, which I really like.

Her approach is taking these design concepts and then breaking them down with handwritten notes on top of them to help you understand how these design concepts work and why they work, which is really helpful education, especially for people who sort of sense something's going on, maybe they're not trained as a designer, but they sense something's going on and they're curious about why it works that way. And you sort of fill that gap, which I love that. I love education, I love that whole thing.

So that is how we crossed paths. And I thought Elizabeth would be a great person because very recently, you were doing some sketching for a project, then it turned into a full-blown sketchnote. You shared video on Instagram. So maybe we can even talk about that project. And I thought this would be great to talk with her and see how sketchnoting fits into her everyday life, and the stuff she does. So, welcome.

EC: Thank you for having me.

MR: Yeah, you're welcome. So why don't you start by telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

EC: That's great. So I am basically in England, despite my accent, I'm actually Scottish, so any of the British listeners are gonna be going, "No, doesn't sound right." But so I though mainly work from home. I am a freelance based marketing designer. I do two types of things. On the average day, I'm either building assets for commercial teams whether that's sort of layout design, landing pages, websites, and a lot of that is UX based as well.

So I've kind of got UX interweaved quite a lot in the background. Very similar to yourself, Mike. It's kind of something I've grown into or using skills I've learned before and applying them in that way. And then the other part of me is actually working with seed-level startups, so people who have an idea but actually don't have anything behind them to help them with the funding.

So actually, I build lightweight brands. I call them diet brands 'cause they're like mini logos and brand sheets rather than these big brand books. And then helping them with like a commercial slide deck to help with their sort of buy-in when they're presenting their idea. And then some flat user interface design concept. So they kind of got like, this is what we're looking to achieve.

And I also work with 'em in a marketing sense of like, how's the best way to present that information? So they might talk to me for 10 minutes and I say, "Well, this is how you frame it, this is how you'd phrase it." And that's part because of the big marketing background, which we'll get into that I have. And so it's kind of like a unique sort of offering for these startups. And I've done a couple now and it really helps 'em look professional at that seed funding level.

So I kind of do two arms, one of this sort of big marketing aspect with sort of SME, B2B companies, so you're sort of quite medium enterprise companies and then right at the start founders. So it's quite nice. I've got a mix that I work with.

MR: And I suppose the ideal client would be someone that you helped at a seed stage who turns into the middle stage, right, where they grow, and then you can stay with them ideally, I suppose at some point in the future, right?

EC: Yeah. Coincidentally, this is my anniversary today of when I decided to go freelance.

MR: Really?

EC: Yeah. So a year ago, last year is when I went, "I'm going to do freelance. I'm going to make this sort of decision. This is what I want to do. I wanna work in a sustainability climate action sort of sector as well." So purpose-driven businesses. So it's been really nice to sort of work with some of these seed founders who have got these ideas to try and help the planet or help people.

And that's the thing, helping people, planet, or animals. That's kind of my three pockets. I'm quite happy at the minute that I'm working with a lot, which has actually enabled social connectivity. So actually, ironically from some tech issues we had at the start of this podcast, I'm working with one which has actually enable telecoms to more rural areas, so lightweight telecoms.

So it's cheaper, it's quicker to put in. So giving a lot of rural areas in Scotland and Wales and Ireland, better access to the internet because the pandemic showed how just proportionate access to technology and internet was. And that's what one of these companies I'm working for at the minute, is doing is these startup telecom pools and cabinets to be able to be put in these places so everyone's got access to the same level of internet. So it's quite nice. It's quite nice to see sort of the different ways that these people are helping communities in their own way.

MR: That's really cool. So you obviously, just been a year since you've gone independent.

EC: Mm-hmm.

MR: Talk a little bit about what got you to that point, what did you do before that, and a little bit of why you decided to go independent. That would be really interesting, especially I think about the audience that's listening here, a lot of times they do sketchnoting or visual thinking on the side or as a side thing at work. And there comes a point for some people that they wanna go independent. I know several people, so it might be helpful for them to hear your journey and your thinking and all that.

EC: Yeah. Well, I would start my journey really, you know, 20 years ago now. Which makes me feel even older. I was like, oh, brilliant. [Unintelligible 05:56] for a minute. All right. Monty, come here. Sit. Sit. Wait. I don't know if somebody at my door next to -- so hold on. Wait.

MR: Okay. We can cut this.

EC: He's very agitated, which makes me think it's our door. Calming down. You are calming down. I know. It's making for interesting TV.

MR: What kind of dog do you have?

EC: He's a Golden Retriever.

MR: Oh.

EC: So he's a big loud dog, hence the noise. But I do have my bribery box, so he knows that when he gets a treat, he's quiet. So I told you it was gonna be that subtler. Good boy. Good boy. Right. I think that's it. I think they've gone one tea. Right. We're going through it all today.

MR: Makes for a fun time.

EC: Right. I'll start again. 20 years ago, making me feel old, I did a dual degree. It was design marketing, so it was about 70 percent design, 30 percent marketing, and it was design-focused as well for marketing. So packaging design, point of sale design, print design, very traditional design. Unfortunately, I am that old where, you know, websites really were just becoming a thing.

You know, I went to uni when it was zip disks. That was the biggest thing that you could store everything on. And I remember thinking brilliant. And it was Yahoo search rather than Google search. I was very traditionally taught in design, so very much pen and paper. I think my entire first year was markers, pens, and fine liners. It wasn't digital. And then we moved into digital and the Mac labs and all that side of things.

From university, I was very fortunate, got a job straight away into a marketing team doing design for the marketing team. Exactly what I did for about six years. And it was really interesting. You've got telling so much about marketing, it's so much about the inner workings of a business as well and how everything works and the commercial teams, sales guys, you know, all that side.

Then lucky for everybody who's old enough to remember as well, then we had a financial crash in 2008 where especially in the UK, most people weren't wanting in-house designers, agencies weren't hiring. It wasn't seen as something people wanted. So I kind of, luckily enough having the degree I had, I flipped my degree. Basically, I flipped my career. I went from doing pretty much pure design with a bit of marketing. So, you know, I used to do marketing admin to started department marketing.

So I went up in a journey in marketing. I quite rapidly went up to manager level, but I was very employable because I could do design and I could save companies thousands of pounds 'cause I could do everything they were paying somebody externally to do. Or at least I could take some of the load of that budget off.

I think because of that, it meant I had a secure job, luckily. And when it got to about six years of doing that, so early 2010, '11, I was like, right, this is definitely the career path. So I kept going, kept doing the marketing management side, and went into digital marketing specifically to really upskilled in web design and really start to take, without knowing it, a UX approach to website design.

I was always data-driven. I was always nerdy about where do people go, what journey did it go, what are they clicking on, and you know, speaking to users and all that side of things. And it got really interesting. But I was getting to a point in my career where, unless I went to the director level where you're just managing people a lot of the time and not doing the work, and I like doing the work.

I like doing the job. I don't wanna manage people doing the job. I want to do the job. Because of the financial crash, people still weren't hiring in-house designers. So I decided to take quite a bold step and I decided to retrain as a teacher. So about 2014 '15, that was, I think it was, I retrained as a teacher. And a design teacher specifically. You know, I wasn't randomly gonna go and do geography.

So went to do design and that's actually when I came across sketchnotes because I'd obviously gone from being hand drawn-taught, very traditional taught to then being thrust into pretty much computer-first design really. And always going to the computer first, it becomes habitual. And I suddenly realized how I'm gonna be teaching kids that some have never designed before.

They may have done art at at primary school, so I always taught secondary school. So high school level. And it was like in America it would be like middle and you know, top high school. I realized I was gonna teach 'em these kids how to draw in terms of design versus art. And then I thought I needed also a way of me relearning how to teach them to design 'cause I can quite instinctively draw a box and I'll draw it in a particular way, but how do I communicate to them, how do you draw this box? How do we annotate?

MR: Yeah, it's a process.

EC: Yeah. How do we annotate it? And I think as you touched on at the start, I got so used to having to teach annotation side, tell you why this thing does this. And that's why I label a lot my drawings educate and saying this is why it does this and this is why this button does this or side of things now. But back then I was struggling. I was like, "How do I teach them this?"

And the funny thing about learning to teach, they teach you how to teach not how to teach your subject in a way. It was quite like, "I'm gonna learn how to go back to basics to draw." And I just by randomness came across your book and I was like--and you know, it was one of those things you think, "I'm an experienced designer buying a book about drawing." And you just kind of think, "This doesn't seem right. But also, really right at the same time." You kind of go, it's like somebody buying me a coloring book. You're like really.

So I got the book and then I just fell in love with the methodology more than anything 'cause It really works for me, the logical side, the iteration side. And I thought, this is perfect for teaching kids. It's perfect for actually getting me back into that traditional design, but more importantly, I was trying to find one so I could show you these traditional homework sheets of basically if you were a top end student, I'll give you the end picture, and they had to backwork it in the building blocks.

And if they were a lesser able child or one that hadn't really experienced any type of design or drawing, I gave them like little shadow boxes. This is kind of how you build up. So there was like, you can really skill it for different skill sets, but it was also, I was using that principle of, right, well how do I do this? And getting the kids to break things down, it was like, "Look at that object, tell me what shapes it is." Or "Draw those shapes under paper," right.

Now, we can combine those shapes under paper. And you could see some kids, their light bulb and their head go in. I never thought I could draw a camera. And then suddenly they just thought, oh, it's actually, I was saying it's a serial box. So they could visualize a serial box with like a round circle in front. That's all it is. And it was interesting where you could just see the thought process of realizing it's not art and it's not got a standard, it's not one plus one equals math. There's a different approach to this.

And then I really liked the methodology of sketch notes and it sort of kept it since then. And I would say the biggest decision I made in my life was training to teach. And I would say the hardest decision in my life was deciding not to continue. Because it was quite a big debate to admit saying this is not a route for me, 'cause sometimes you just think, "I've committed to this, now I'm just gonna have to stick with my guns." And I was like, "I've become one of those statistics where people go, ah, there's many teachers leaving in the first year of teaching. I'm now one of those statistics." Which I was like, well it's not really 101, but I'm one of them.

MR: You have to be real, right? I suppose.

EC: Yeah. And I was very conscious, and yourself and your listeners would be aware that if I was out of industry for a certain length of time, it would be very hard for me to get into a certain level in industry rather than start this at the bottom again. So I had to take quite a big bold step halfway through my first year and go, "This is not for me. At the end of this term, I'm going back into industry." So that's what I did.

I then went back into industry working for a manufacturing company, and I love how things are made. So that really ignited my passion again, I think. In a way, it was like taking a career break that I think that teaching it was kind of proved to be that sort of, well year and a half of a career break in a weird way. But it realized that I like design. I do like the marketing aspect in a smaller portion, but people are investing now back into design back into branding, regaining the customer base. So I went back into design, which I really enjoyed.

And I was focusing now on more sustainability as well. Sustainable business energy sector, which I work a lot in. And then action and climate change. So I've done quite a lot in sustainability. Learning a lot about that side as well. And I'm really focused on helping people with a purpose succeed.

And I got to about four or five years into the company I was working for previously last year, and I sat there and thought, again, "I don't wanna go to this marketing director level." I was getting to the same problem that I was like, I just, I like doing the work and I like project managing, which is a bit weird when you think, I don't wanna be a marketing director, but I like managing project, but I don't wanna be that director level. It's no interest to me and not everybody's career path is to go to the top of the pyramid. There's a lot of us like to sit a couple of steps below that.

And that's when I thought I'm gonna do freelance properly 'cause a lot of creatives, I've dabbled with it here and there and I've dipped my toe in and I thought actually -- and you know, it's a year ago to the day that sat, I remember on holiday went, "I think this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go freelance. I'm gonna work for purpose-driven companies. I'm gonna work for marketing teams because I know what assets I have to that team 'cause They understand marketing teams."

So I come from a very practical approach to what they do. It's like, this is engaging content and it's practical and I talk marketing. I understand how they can get the budgets for what they need to do. I understand all that side. And then the other part of me was going, if I work on that, then a small part of me now is focused on working with seed founders to help their ideas within purpose-driven, whether it's in climate change or whether it's in animal welfare, whether it's telecoms to level up communities. Whether it's all that.

And a lot of the time I'm working with them nearly at cost as well because I am a firm believer in giving back. And I know these ones are wanting to do good. They're not doing this to make money, they're doing -- but side note, some of these are not-for-profits anyway, the way they're setting themselves up. And the a quote that's always stood with me and random person that I heard it from, I don't if it's actually him originally, but it's the person I remember saying it, which is the rapper/singer Pitbull of all people.

MR: Okay. Yeah.

EC: And he said "Money does buy you happiness, you just have to give it away." And I thought it was a really interesting way of framing it. And I was like, so I worked with these smaller projects to try and give back in a different way. So enabling them to have something that will do good at the same time working for these bigger SME marketing teams.

Yeah, so for nearly under a year now, I've been doing freelance. I attempted freelance at the started of the year. I have a contract job with a marketing company which secured my time because of the experience I've had. They were like, "Well, work for us for 20 hours a week." Anybody who's freelance will know, you know, any work 60 hours a week, I'm working for myself as well sort of thing. You know, there's no real, "Oh you only do 40 hours freelance." It's like, 'cause you're also marketing and accountant and HR and social media.

MR: Right. Yeah.

EC: Yeah. So you know, social media. Video grapher is my thing at the minute. So it's interesting because that journey, all those things I've gone through and experience I've had like the financial crash made me more prepared to be freelance 'cause I knew what I had to put in place to cope with those sort of events. The pandemic also had the same effect. I know what I need to do to that. So hopefully, this is now my journey.

MR: Wow. That's really great. And I would think too, you know, going back to your education, you took that year and a half to kind of potentially switch careers and it was clear that it wasn't the direction. But I would think that that education on how to educate as much as, you know, it didn't fit for you to be a full-time thing, you found ways to integrate that.

That's what I think attracted me when I was on Instagram. I see you doing that kind of work in the things you're doing. And I imagine for those seed-level startups, you're teaching them how to position themselves and how to reframe, what's the narrative, right? All those things are things you can teach out of your wealth of knowledge in marketing and then teach them in a way that fits their situation. Would that be a fair way to think of it?

EC: Yeah. And myself, I'm a constant learner. Like one of the master classes was actually yours, an Interaction design foundation. So, you know, I've watched one of your master classes, I think I've done one of your other ones as well, one you did as an independent webinar. And I'm always wanting to learn and I always like to experience how other people teach as well thinking, oh, I like that or I like that --

MR: Me too.

EC: -- that technique. And I'll be like, "Oh, I'll write that down." And funny enough, I have that in my sketch notes. I have my playbook, which we'll probably get to in terms of tips and that. And I write everything down and I'm always wanting to learn, even if it's subjects that are totally nothing to do because I've just got an interest in subject. I've done a criminology diploma because I was just really interested in like CSI and things. I was like, "I just wanna know more about this." I have no interest in doing it as a job, but I wanna learn more.

And through my sort of social media and part of what I've tried to do with some of the, you know, here's the buttons and this is why this is this and like trying to break it down to people, like trying to understand to them why like three lines of text, why it should be orientated like this and the different shapes it should do. And it's really nice getting feedback from a couple of people who are actually junior marketing people that are following me going, "Oh that's just made it look so much better now my PowerPoint."

And they're applying these little concepts in different ways and it was so nice. A woman was so proud, they sent me like, "Look at this. I took your ideas." And I didn't even know they were following me 'cause I've never interacted with them. But they were so tough just to say. And I was like, it's like that teaching approach. And I've got like a whole program of other things that it's just getting the time unfortunately of other things I wanna say like this way, this is why it looks better than this way. Both are fine, but you know, let's have a look, breakdown.

So it's kind of that, it's so nice to see little things I've done just to try and like help and part that information, and as other people are sucking in, like the little silent people, they don't interact, they don't like your stuff. They don't comment on your stuff, but they're clearly just sit --

MR: You're having an influence for sure. Yeah.

EC: Yeah. And I get like little messages going, "How did you edit that in?" Like they go, "Well how did you do that in Premiere Pro? And I'm like, "Well I didn't. I used such and such to start with. I said, "It's far easier, if you're not a pro with something like Premiere Pro or something like that." Goes, "Use Canva, use Adobe Express. Just use something that's easier." Sort of thing. Don't think you have to use its big software 'cause the big boys use it. You know what I mean?

MR: Right.

EC: And I always say, you know, "Use something that's just user-friendly." And that's the kind of the wins.

MR: Yeah, exactly. I mean I use iMovie for almost everything, podcasts. I've used it for my teaching. So when I do my training and I cut it up and turn it into a video for sale, I'm just using iMovie. I mean, I've always believed this, like a lot of times we tend to think that we need the big software when simple software that's default on your machine is often more powerful than you realize because you just overlook it and that there's opportunities to really push it further than you really think it could push.

EC: And I think like going back to my secondary school education, the most advanced type of art software was the equivalent of whatever paint was back then.

MR: Yeah, exactly.

EC: We were drawing everything in paint. And I have one of the first things I ever did upstairs, it was a little folder that my mom -- my mom was obviously like, look what she drew sort of thing. And you know, we just think that's cringe. "It's cringeworthy, mom. But now I'm 40, I think that's actually quite cool that I've got something that I did digital or way back when."

And I remember looking at every time going, but on the other hand, paint could do a lot back then. And that was 20, and on CorelDRAW, I think we were using and quo we were saying with layout design quo and things. So, you know, I'm in the age with Dreamweaver, used to be owned by Macromedia rather than Adobe. And I do sometimes think like -- I always say to people, Microsoft Paint can actually do a huge amount. 'Cause I'm a Mac -- not a Mac user, I'm a PC user.

I use Notepad by default for a lot of things, typing up notes. And it's so great if you are doing web development 'cause it strips all the code out, it strips all your formatting so you know, you've got a clean copy and paste when you're putting in something. So I do think that we forget the simpler things.

And it's the same, we've going back to just sketching, going back to that idea of stop forcing myself to use Illustrator straight away because I'm not a pro at Illustrator. I have to keep Googling stuff 'cause I always forget stuff. When you have to remember how to use Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere and InDesign, and Figma on your average day, you get to the point of "There's only so much I'm gonna remember how to do." Sort of thing.

MR: Yeah, yeah. You focus on the things you use often, right? And you Google things you use occasionally, which is fine. I mean that's -- those tools.

EC: I wish Google when I was learning would've been brilliant when I was at university.

MR: No kidding. Well, we're on this discussion of software. We sort of hinted at this when we prepared for this, talking about the drawing and software, and so, I think agree in this sense that I think it's important that you do your concepting on paper with pen to get the idea and to think through the idea before you get into software.

My theory or my view is, the problem with software as powerful as it is, even the simple stuff, is once you enter software, you tend to adapt to the things that the software lets you do or even to this discussion we're having now. You adapt to the things you know how to make the software do, which is a narrow subset of what the software probably can do.

But by using pencil sketches or sketchnotes or whatever technique as ugly or beautiful as it is, it helps you think through where you're gonna go before you ever touch any bit of software. So you're coming with this approach that's not hindered in any way by what the software can or can't do.

It's more like what's the solution that we're solving for the person, the customer, the user using this thing. Let's start from that point, which, you know, that's our UX perspective. And then work back to making it happen and then bring the tools in. Would you kind of track along the side of that and have you seen that I would apply?

EC: Yeah, I would. And actually, I would say it pretty much aligns with exactly a project I've just sent to print. I've nerve-rackingly sent to print. It's always one of those moments, especially if you're so used to digital design, you've got send something to actually print. You're like, "I'm gonna check this 500 times." So I'm gonna actually a bit show. This is useless for people just listening rather than those watching.

MR: If you're listening to the podcast, look on the link for the YouTube and you can check it out.

EC: So this is something -- I'm gonna try and get it in screen. There we go.

MR: You got it on there. That's all in.

EC: There we go. So that is actually quite a few sheets worth of work. But this was deliberately designed in a comic book style. And it was something that I knew if I went to the computer, I'm gonna go and default a couple of things. I'm gonna look at some stock illustrations that can get me the boxes and the styles and the effects. And then I'm gonna go quite rigid and I'm gonna do this.

And I'm thinking, first of all, I've got to think it through because it's about actually how product is made from -- it's that telecoms brand company. So how someone gets from that sheet of metal all the way through to a roadside cabinet with a telecoms pool coming out of it and a wifi device at the top of it and all the stages in between? And I've got to remember what those stages are.

And I think taking it back to pen and paper, it was kind of a big sketchnote gone wrong. I was starting to actually do it as very -- I did say it was a sketchnote gone wrong 'cause I did originally plan just to do like little sketchnotes, going right, this would be this and this will be this. Then I took another sheet and went, "Oh no, I'll just draw it out properly."

And then I got to the third sheet 'cause and I'll add a little bit of marker pen. It literally just started to build up. I was like, "This is quite funny. This is me really not doing sketchnotes now." I was like, "I've abandoned it. It's not a sketchnote, it's a full-on illustration." But the best thing about that was, it took me maybe a couple of hours to draw all out, get the concept, a few annotations kind of like the teaching side as well.

Just took a picture of it and sent it to the MD and went, "This is the idea and I don't wanna spend time doing a illustrate if you don't like the concept of this being this comic book superhero theme." And he was like, "I like it. I really like it." Luckily, he's got a good vision. He can see what's gonna be the end result as well. He knows what I'm capable of so he knows what would be produced. And even when he looked at this very basic sketch, he went, "Oh by the way, it's not called that, it's called this so you need to google this."

So you already gave me feedback just because the sketch was just good enough where you could get what it was supposed to be, but you could pick up on, "Oh you've not quite got that terminology. So just point in the right path." So my next version of that was fine and then fine lined it, took pictures of it, and then took it into Illustrator.

And I think it's better because it's, a lack way of putting it got that one key approach. And my lines aren't quite parallel. Like curves aren't perfect because I've traced the image of that. And it's given a very hand-drawn effect. And rather than if I had gone to illustrate straight away, I know I would've done really nice straight lines. A really nice arc. And it would've looked too polished.

And whole point of this was, it's supposed to be somebody sketched out like a story like you do with comics. Sometimes I have to remember that's actually gonna be a better approach. And I think that's why stripping back to pen and paper and having that base skillset really helpful in trying to convey an idea as well and get buy-in. Before I go and invest 40 hours of my time, "Are we all right with this one hour of time I've invested?"

MR: Well, and you have to think that way as an independent especially, 'cause that means if you spend 40 hours going all the way with that, that's 40 hours you can't spend on something else that maybe you should be, right? It's sort of a seed idea that, "Hey, is this right?" Even if it gets you arguing over the concept, at least it's movement. And then you can move from there. Either you'd say, "No, that's too loose. I don't want that." Or "Hey, it looks great, he chose that way, but at least it gives him an option and is our invested." And you can now choose your adventure based on that.

EC: I think the reason behind doing it as well goes back to maybe the last two to three years of really getting deep into UX design in terms of websites where really starting with pen and paper wireframes. Pen and paper wireframes, then even moving into just block design and saying, "This is where the hero shot's gonna be. This is where the interest's gonna be." And laying it out blocks like that before even building it.

And again, web design, we get so carried away from going, getting a brief and going right bang, here's your website. And then going, "Oh actually we don't really like that and it doesn't flow here. But doing it in that stage work, which does take more time, but then that's kind of part of the investment with UX rather than just going straight into web design.

And that's part of what I've been trying to do when doing freelance is going, but even when I approach the marketing teams, I go, "I don't do your brochure straight out the bat. What I do is I go, here's the general skeleton structure. This is what your page layout's gonna be." And I give them like a skeleton grid of their say 16 pages. These are where your content blocks are. This is roughly where your imagery is gonna be. This is the idea. And I'll give them a like a mood ball going, "And this is the visuals." And then they can buy in on that.

So when they produce the end result, it should be pretty much on the button rather than coming back going, "Oh actually, we'd rather it was a bit like this. And could those be amalgamated together?" Don't go it wrong. You do get ones like that. Where you've somehow, it's been lost in translation. But again, it's to try and help me knowing that that's kind of way marketing teams work as well. If you can give them an idea. If you've got somebody with a remote bit of creative brain, they can visualize it already in their head as well. They kind of know what the end result's gonna be.

And it just helps and gives them confidence that they know I know what I'm doing. So I kind of strip it down even if it's digitally kind of blocks. But yeah, I think going straight into the actual design end phase. And in a way that's what sketchnotes has taught me is to not always go for that sort of thing. Not always go for the end result with a color and a fine line and all that. You know, use a pen and paper, use a pencil sort of thing.

MR: That seems to work. I've been doing this for many years and sometimes I'll jump right to the computer and stop myself and come back and get out my iPad or a piece of paper and just sketch the concept. And it always seems that those projects turn out better. They iterate better, they're smoother. They're more thought out. Like all those things that you want in an end product, ends up getting bound into them when I approach 'em that way.

And typically, I do, but there's times when, if I'm in a hurry, I might forget that step and I'll have to like, "Okay, stop. Let's go back let's do some sketching." Even if it's just a little bit in my bullet journal, just to think through the process, that might be enough, right. It doesn't have to be some crazy detailed thing, but a little dump of ideas and seeing it helps reinforce things and give it direction, which is really valuable.

EC: Yeah. I even do that with quite a few of my social media posts. If they're gonna be actually illustrating a topic or I go for one that's about buttons. You know, I've got them in one of my notebooks where I was going, right, this is how it's gonna lay out, these are the buttons I'm gonna talk about. Giving myself the space and oh that's not gonna work. Do the next one. The next one. Rather than going straight into these ones were done in Figma. So rather than going straight into Figma and going, "Oh no, I have to resize this and I have to move this." I already know what it's gonna be.

MR: You got the map. Yeah.

EC: Yeah. And you can go straight in. And I do think going digital first sometimes isn't the best way. And I think that's one of the big benefits of having the career that I've had where, you know, my first year university was pretty much analog and that set me off success. You know, we learned proper old school market techniques. You know, with the blending up and sort of thing and you know, and having to use masking tape to keep your line script.

So I've learned all of those skills. You wouldn't think that looking at some of my designs. I look at some of my sketchnotes and going, "I have no idea how I've got the degree I've got sometimes. Or how I was allowed to teach children how to draw." But then that's kind of one of the things I try and do is go, "Don't get hung up on the way it looks. Just get it down." Sort of thing.

MR: Yeah. Functional, functional, functional.

EC: Yeah.

MR: That's really cool. This is a great story and it's brought back a lot of memories for me as well. So that's encouraging. Let's shift a little bit. I'd love to hear the tools that you like to use. You've hinted at some on the design on the marketing side which you can certainly go into. You can start either analog or digital, whichever way you'd like first.

EC: Well, I think we should start analog because you know, we're saying we should go analog first. I'd like to say I'm a black pen enthusiast. I have a lot of black pens, those listening to the audio, there. I try lots --

MR: A bucket full black pens.

EC: Yeah. Obviously, some of them are different thicknesses and some are like brush tip and normal tip. But doesn't matter which black pen I use, I go back to an actual Uniball finite pen. Just 'cause it's a really simple, nice black pen. And I like it 'cause it's reliable and it's consistent. And usually come in packet of like five 'cause I seem to lose them. I don't how I'll lose them. It's like batteries, you know, they just disappear. But I really like the Uniball high fine pen.

And you can get them in like every supermarket here in the UK. Especially, at the minute it's back-to-school stuff. So, funny enough, I've just bought another packet. I like them as well 'cause they're consistent. It doesn't really matter what paper I use, they come out the same. They don't really bleed and it's just got their nice crispness to it. And then with them, if you think I'm a black pen enthusiast, you still need to see the amount of marker pens I own.

But I have a huge amount of color and marker pens. But for the sketch notes side, I found I was trying to focus too much on the color instead of just giving it a bit of a highlight and a bit of a punch more than anything. And then my brain tweaked them I was like, well just use highlighters sort of thing. So one of the things I really like is, these are the Sharpe highlighters. So the s-not and they come in about20 or so colors

MR: Look like nice pastel colors. If you're listening, they're not the traditional intense crazy colors. It's more like pastel colors.

EC: Yeah. And I think that's why we like 'em because they've got a bit of a punch of a traditional neon sort of highlight. You know, they've got a bit of that punch, but they've got the softness of the pastel sort of very zebra, I think bring out a pastel range. I've got twitch, I've got God knows how many of them as well.

MR: Oh, okay.

EC: But they're kind of very vibrant and they come in a whole range of colors. You wouldn't get that -- you know, there's no neon, real true neon, but them combined, they just give that highlight. And what I try to do is I look at what I'm taking a sketchnote off. So if we go back to -- they're always learning. That's what I use my sketchnotes for is always like watching the webinars and using it to remember what I'm learning. Or when I read books, I try and condense a book I've read into one or two pages of notes.

So one of the things I do is, so I've got quite nicely got to actually a page use those. So I try and use the colors just -- I pick a couple of colors to match maybe the brand of the person that I'm watching. Or it could be to do with the topic because then it helps me remember it and learn it. I'm that design nerd, so I'm kind of thinking he needs to have a nice theme. I can't just rock up with any random color.

MR: Yeah.

EC: So that's kind of how I do. I always have a Uniball pen on me. I've got them in my bags. I've got 'em in the car because they are just so relatively foldable as well. They're really quite cheap. It's only like a few bucks for a pack of three or five, however many they come in.

MR: That's great. Yeah.

EC: And paper-wise, I'm quite particular. So when I'm doing the actual UX design, so when I'm doing wireframes because I really don't want to use color. These are black and white and I know if I use white paper I'm gonna add color 'cause I know what sort of person I am.

MR: Interesting.

EC: Yeah. So I use Kraft brown paper.

MR: Oh wow.

EC: So deliberately you put color on that, it doesn't really show at all. So I've got like a nice sort of spiraled brown and it's quite a nice size as well. So sort of landscape orientation, it's kind of monitor then portrait orientation, you've kind of got more of a mobile style. I've got a couple of these now and they're quite thick as well. So if I wanna use a heavier-duty thicker black pen, they work really well.

MR: They can't bleed.

EC: Yeah. And so I use Kraft, and it forces me not to use color. It forces me to keep -- this is purely about wire framing. This is where the base element's go in the page. And then I use post-it notes to highlight up to like, this is where it's gonna move. In terms of the notebooks, it was funny enough, I was just looking at the sketchnote one the other day.

But I use quite a thick, really thick gram paper. And I like nice notebooks. It's one of my things. I don't like just using generic paper as well. And I think 'cause those sharpies can be quite heavy duty. It's a Sharpie at the end of the day, you know, it's gonna have a bit of a bleed through the page. So I'm quite conscious of having a really heavy gram paper.

And I like dot grid. I can't do the blank paper. 'Cause Even those comic book strips, actually it's on the reverse side of blue graph paper. So I can roughly see the graph through it. So I've got an idea of where the lines are. But I like dot grid. All of my general notebooks are dot paper or grid paper, depending on how people call them. And that's kind of what I like analog-wise, I'm quite traditional. I think. I'm not really into anything fancy.

MR: So for the heavy gram notebook, that looked like a LEUCHTTURM, if I were to guess. I don't know If that's the brand.

EC: No, I'm gonna pronounce this wrong. I already know I'm gonna -- Ottergami

MR: Oh, okay. Ottergami. I haven't heard that. There's a fun shot now. So for bullet journalists. Or bullet journalists and they have quite thick paper.

EC: Yeah, it's really nice quality. From my sustainability side and also, 'cause I am actually a vegan as well, so I'm very conscious about them not having real leather on the covers and things. And it is a bit like your own one, which -- that's how I came across it. 'Cause I was looking for notebooks that weren't real leather covers. But I do like it because it is so heavy duty and it's got that nice quality.

And I think if I'm gonna be writing something I'm gonna look back on, I want it to feel nice. You know, I want that tact. I like the tactileness sort of thing. And I think that's, again, goes back to being old-school print design. You like the feel of the paper and it's got the nice gram effect, et cetera.

MR: Yeah, exactly. Now what about if we switch to digital, assuming that you don't have any other analog tools that you'd like to share? What would be the tool?

EC: Well, I have a lot of analog tools, but I don't think any of them are -- I've got, you know, every type of color pencil going. Digital-wise, 'cause I'm not a Mac user, I am a Windows user, so I've got a Samsung Galaxy Tab. And I use Concepts because it's just a brilliant app.

MR: That's a great tool.

EC: Yeah. The Concepts app. And I would say in the last two years, the Samsung Pen has been really up its game with its sensitivity. It works like my old Apple iPad Pro, what was it called? Yeah, iPad Pro that had the tablet. I had one of the first edition ones and then Procreate stop supporting it, so I sold it. And that's when I was like, well actually it was the last piece of Apple products I had.

So I thought, well, this is the time I'm gonna move to Galaxy Tab. And I wanted something smaller because this is small enough to go into, you know, a small like rucksack. So in a out and about. And I love the Concepts app. Really been looking at using it in the last year or so.

I like the never-ending art board as well, although sometimes it kind of feels like you don't have scale. So I've noticed when I've gone back and looked at sketches I've done or UX wireframes where some look proportionally fine and then I zoom out and then somehow I've managed to do giant boxes and tiny boxes. But because it's vector-based, at least you can start to resize things.

MR: Yeah. You can size it. Yeah.

EC: But sometimes you kinda lose the awareness of where you are 'cause it's obviously a smaller screen 'cause it's a Galaxy Tab rather than like a big iPad Pro. But I do like the Concepts app. I've tried a few and they just didn't seem to have that sensitivity with the Samsung Pen. But equally they didn't have even just a free version of Concepts, the wide range of colors, wide range of pens available and not. So yeah, I do like sketchnoting though, because you can press Undo and you can change the line that you just thought it's a bit dodgy.

MR: Yeah. That's nice.

EC: And it does the smoothing out. I was like, "Oh, I like this. Why can't I do this a real life for a pen and paper."

MR: Yeah, exactly. So the tab I think is more like an A5 size?

EC: It is. To be fair, it's not far off the size of notebooks.

MR: It'd probably be closest to an iPad Mini if someone's used to iPad. It's probably more in that range.

EC: Yeah, it is a nice size. And I got that 'cause I wanted something that was bigger than my phone for actually learning because a lot of learnings now online you can't get books for a lot of things anymore. But I didn't wanna have to keep using my phone. And when I've spent 11 hours of the day at my computer, I don't wanna have to have my computer on an evening. So I bought it originally to be able to read eBooks or do some of the courses I've signed up to.

MR: And do a training. Yeah.

EC: Yeah. And even like your webinar, I think I watched it on my Galaxy Tab or potentially drew it on my Galaxy Tab. I can't remember now. But I use it for that. And then it's like the penny dropped. I was like, "Well, why don't I do some sketch notes on this?" And then I've started to use it more for the wireframes because it's easy then to take that and then put it into likes of Figma. And that's I found rather than having to take pictures and then move them in. So I'm using Concepts more for wireframes than sketchnoting. I think the tactlessness of the notebook for sketchnoting.

MR: Well, that's really cool. We don't have lots and lots of PC-only users or Galaxy Android users. So it's good to have represented because I know there must be more out there. So it's good to hear that. Good feedback. Yeah.

EC: Well I was like -- my computers all the way through university, even all the way up to near enough when I went to teacher training, were all Macs. For those who are watching, you'll see I've got in the background probably you can just see I've got an original iPhone, an iPod on the wall. Still have a better battery life to old iPhone 'cause they still work. And I had the old school, massive Mac, the Blueberry Mac with the big blue colors. So you know that I had one of them. So I've always been Mac from training.

And then it just got more into PC-based because I knew a large portion of my audience were using PCs. The market teams teams were using PCs. It was an easy sell to people to, "Well, we don't wanna put a Mac into the IT system and things." So I got used to using a Windows-based ecosystem. And then gradually as things in my Apple ecosystem died off, they just replaced with a Windows and Android.

MR: Yeah, makes sense.

EC: So I kind of smoothly moved over.

MR: That's pretty cool. Well, thanks for sharing your tools. People always like to have this section so they can learn about new tools and try things out. I know I learn about tools all the time from this section as well, so.

EC: When I walk the dog and listen to the podcast, I'm always like, "Oh, I didn't know that." Or, "Oh, there's another pen I'm gonna -- I think that's another pen I'm gonna buy." And then go back to the Uniball. Hence the tub of nearly 50 black pens that I own.

MR: Wow. Well, let's go to the next portion of the show, which is your three tips. So I always frame it as someone's listening, they're individual thinking, whatever that means to them. Maybe they've gotten into a rut and they need just some encouragement. Like what would be three things you would encourage them to do to kind of get back into a good rhythm?

EC: I think the first one, and this is something that I used to champion a lot when I was teaching and trying to get kids to get out the mindset of. You've just come from, you know, maths or you've come from geography or history or wherever it might be. And you've come and sat in this room, you've gotta get kids credit 'cause they've gotta suddenly switch from one class to another. And I'll just be sitting going, I can't get my head into this mindset. Or it's not perfect or it's whatever it might be.

And I used to say to them at the level they're doing, or the level that most designers are doing, there's no standard. Don't worry about a standard. Try and remember there's no standard. This is not maths. One plus one doesn't equal two. So your standard is not my standard. Your design is not my design. And that's why I actually love sketchnotes 'cause everybody's is completely different. Everyone's styles are different.

And trying to remember that unless you're doing architecture and building regulations, design is quite free. And don't you put that pressure on yourself? So give yourself a break. Remember that you are setting the standard in a way and try and give yourself a break. 'Cause I think we all kind of get a bit too hung up on, "Oh, it needs to be like this." And it's kinda like, no, just, there's no standard to design really. It's, quite freeing.

It's not as free as art. Granted. But that's very expressive. You know, you've got the fine line. You know, we do have some standards, you know, we're not going to the really, really fluid art world, but yeah, try and remember that you are the one giving yourself a hard time. So let up on yourself. There is no standard. So I would say that's probably number one.

The second one is a bit something that I wish I did a lot early on in my career. And I've only started doing in the last, I think five, six years actually after I finished teaching, really, I'm gonna get an example, is I create playbooks 'cause a hybrid of a sketchbook, a scrapbook, important notes. Things that I find I think are really interesting that I want to sort of scrapbook.

And the reason why I wish I started this earlier -- so for those listening, I'm sort of holding up some like cutouts I've done and I've annotated them and things that I've found online or logos and packaging that I like and I cut them out and I sort of stick them in and I write why I like them or why it's worked and so annotating them.

But I also do my sketch notes in it from the books that I've read or the webinars I've attended. And I have one for each year. And the reason I like them is sometimes it's really good to just, if you've got that mental block, is go back and look at something, pick a subject you've read and think it could inspire you.

Or if you think, oh, this is no good, look what you were doing five, six years ago. And it's like, when I look at the thing I designed when I was 15 using Microsoft Paint or whatever it would've been, I'm like, "Oh yeah, I've actually come quite a way since then." Sort of thing. So I wish I did these earlier because it's so interesting to look back on.

But more importantly, I get inspiration every time I look at them because it is personalized to me. It's my journey. It's my type of design and it helps inspire me to look at it and go, "Oh yeah, why didn't I try that?" Or "Oh wait, I forgot about this."

And sometimes it can spark that idea or give you the confidence boost. You remember you can actually do this, right? It's like when I draw badly or -- I wouldn't say badly. It's not a word I like to use. But I draw in a way where I just think, "How do people pay me to do this?" Sort of thing.

I deliberately sometimes go -- and I've got like some really nice hand-drawn, colored in really heavy-duty, 20 hours sort of pencil colors drawings in my playbooks, in my sketchbooks because it's just to remind myself I do actually have that talent. It's just my brain's not using that talent at the minute. It's clearly using it for something else. You know, it's worrying about, "What I'm gonna have from a dinner." So it's nice to look back and it kind of reaffirms where you are, but also gives you that inspiration.

And I would say the third one is probably a classic one is walk the dog. The amount of things I can solve by walking my dog. I take him out for a walk, 45 minutes later I'm either re-inspired, I fixed a problem while either walking the dog. I might think, "Oh, this is a different way to approach it." The dog is brilliant 'cause I talked to him like a crazy dog owner I am, you know, and he doesn't answer back. He has a good go, granted, but he generally doesn't answer back.

And I would say, so take that tea break, go in the garden, walk the dog. Like during a pandemic was harder. So I used to go in the garden and just walk up and down a few times throwing a ball with a dog because as soon as my brain -- it is that adage of, to be creative, you also have to be bored. You have to have that bit where your brain is not thinking about what you're trying to think about. And that's why we have our best ideas in the shower when you're going to sleep because you've suddenly switched off. So I try sometimes a dog, it's four walks a day.

MR: It's a lot I'm sure.

EC: Yeah. Well, it gets to a point where it's like, "Oh, do we have to? Do we have to?" So I think we really underestimate getting away from your desk. Get out to nature, walk the dog. Just, you know, that fresh air is something about it that for me really works to help me get over that struggle.

And it could be any struggle, it could be a design struggle, it could be from the marketing stuff that I work on teams with, saying how should we approach this? So I find it's one of the best things I've -- well say it's nine years in now. It's the best thing I've had really in terms of my tools as well, is very analog tool.

MR: Yeah. That's good. That's good. Reset.

EC: Mm-hmm.

MR: Well, those are great tips. Thanks for sharing those, Elizabeth. Very helpful and encouraging. Making me wanna take my dog for a walk now, which maybe I should do after this 'cause I've been sitting for an hour, so

EC: Well, yeah. One of my friends, she says she plays with the kids. She says she'll go and she'll just build Lego with the kids or she'll go and color in with the kids because it is one of the few friends I've got that's in a relatively similar role. So she gets it as well. And she says sometimes just doing that and drawing it back to a more basic level makes her go, "Ah, that's how I could approach this problem." Or "That's how I could do this logo idea." 'Cause She's very much logo design and she's like, ah, that's -- you know, it's like the penny drops moments 'cause she's doing something related, but at the same time not thinking about it. So I really do think sometimes you have to give yourself 10 minutes to go do something else.

MR: Yeah. Let's your subconscious work for a bit, I guess. You know, so it can kind of churn on things and give you back some ideas.

EC: Yeah.

MR: So Elizabeth, where can we find you? What's the best place to locate you? A website, social media? Where do you hang out?

EC: My website is Below Two, so spelled out T-W-O.co.uk. And that's pretty much all of my social media is the same. So it's Below Two Studio. So whether it be Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, the whole lot, very rare. I've managed to secure it on all of the platforms. Especially in today's world where so many things are taken up. But you can find me there. I'm generally mostly on LinkedIn and Instagram. I've quoted Twitter there, which just start getting called using X, that's the term. But yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram mainly and my website, which is a key thing.

MR: Okay. That's really great. And you can go check that out everyone. We'll have of course, as always show notes and samples. And if we can get some samples from Elizabeth, we'll link to those as well so we can, she can throw 'em on our website and send us some links and we can see some pictures of her playbooks and some other things that she's talked about, if you're listening.

EC: It'll be great once this has actually come out, the thing I've just done a comic book stuff, we'll actually have all the end results.

MR: Oh.

EC: It's part of a huge exhibition that the entire standard is now gonna be comic book superhero design. So we've done the whole lot to that sort of style now.

MR: Wow. Cool.

EC: So hopefully, I'll have some quite like, literally here's the idea here. Is it now fully?

MR: That would be cool. Yeah, that'd be great.

EC: So hopefully I'll have that.

MR: Great. Well, thanks Elizabeth for all the sharing and teaching you do on Instagram that I've seen and for your generosity and hanging out with us and telling us your story and laughing and having the dog bark and the network flake out and all the things that we've gone through. It's been a joy just to hang out with you.

EC: Yes, thank you very much for having me. It's made a nice start to the bank holiday weekend here.

MR: Well, that's great. That's great. For all those who are listening or watching, this will wrap up another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until next time, talk to you soon.

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Sketchnote Lab is Mike Rohde’s space designed to bridge the gap between sketchnote theory and practice. You don’t need to be an artist to think visually. Join Mike and learn to use sketchnotes to clarify your thinking, solve problems, and move forward. Learn more about Sketchnote Lab.

Mike is the author of The Sketchnote Handbook and The Sketchnote Workbook, bestselling books that teach regular people how to start sketchnoting and build a regular sketchnoting practice.

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In this episode, Jono Hey shares how he visually represents complex ideas in simple ways that are sticky, memorable, and quick to get to grips with. He also talks about building a platform that connects schools with substitute teachers.

Sponsored by Concepts

This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android.

Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework.

Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting.

SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try.

Running Order

• Intro
• Welcome
• Who is Jono Hey
• Origin Story
• Jono Hey's current work
• Sponsor: Concepts
• Tips
• Tools
• Where to find Jono Hey
• Outro

Links

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Sketchplanations Website
• Sketchplanations the Podcast
• Sketchplanations on Patreon
• Sketchplanations on on Instagram
• Sketchplanations on LinkedIn
• Jono’s Album: Fresh Start

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Moleskine dotted notebooks
• Leuchtturm1917 dotted notebooks
• Uniball Vision Elite pens
• Copic markers
• iPad Pro
• SketchBook Pro

Tips

1. The first draft is always perfect.
2. Keep it simple.
3. Keep going.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro

Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast

You can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube or your favorite podcast listening source.

Support the Podcast

To support the creation, production, and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde’s bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike and I'm here with Jono Hey. Jono, welcome to the show. It's so good to have you.

Jono Hey: Well, thanks, Mike. It's so good to finally meet you after all these years.

MR: Yeah, it's great. We've connected years and years ago, specifically for a sample or I guess one of your pieces that we included in one of the sketchnote handbooks, sketchnote workbooks because I thought your stuff was really cool, and the way you thought about visualization was really interesting. So that's, I think, how we crossed paths initially, probably 10 years ago, almost.

JH: Yeah, I think it was probably about 10 years ago.

MR: Isn't that crazy?

JH: Yeah. And I came across your work from originally when you did the re-work book. That's for--

MR: That's right.

JH: -- which was also a long time ago.

MR: Yeah. That was more like 15 years ago almost that now. So crazy how time flies. Anyway, so that's how we crossed paths. I've always loved your work, and I'm amazed at your prolific nature and your ability to continuously produce these sketchplanations.

And if you are watching or listening, and you've not heard of, or seen Jono's sketchplanations, they're amazing. He basically visually represents often very complex ideas in simple ways. So you can sort of get the concept of the idea with some notes and such to help, you know, describe it. Is that a fair way to describe what your sketchplanations are?

JH: Yeah, definitely. It's about taking a concept and trying to just represent it in a picture in a way that's sort of sticky and memorable and quick to get to grips with. I think over the years I've definitely started adding a bit more layer of description, which you can take optionally, but you don't have to have it. That's the idea is that you have that surface level. If it's interesting, you can dive in, and if not, carry on, you know.

MR: Yeah. And I'd love to hear sort of the origin story of that and what is driving you to continue, but first, tell us a little bit about what you do and who you are, and then you can jump right into your -- I always love to have people do their own origin story.

So how did you end up doing what you're doing? Did you draw as a kid? Did somehow you snuck through school without it being shaken out of you? Or how did that all begin? So start with who you are, what you do, and then where you came from.

JH: Cool. Yeah, as you said, I'm Jono, and I'm mostly here because of my work for Sketchplanations, which is a weekly newsletter working towards explaining the world one sketch at a time. With the illustration side, I was lucky enough to do some illustrations for Bill Gates's book recently, the --

MR: Oh, good.

JH: -- "How to Prevent the Next Pandemic," which was really cool. The illustrations, Sketchplanations has all been sort of a side project, which I've been doing now for the 10 years or so, that we've crossed paths. In my day job, I run product development. So I've been a UX designer and I run product delivery.

I'm now on my second startup, which has been a really cool and really interesting parallel journey, and it feeds a lot of content and the sorts of things that come into Sketchplanations. You ask the origin story so I will go right back.

MR: Okay, good.

JH: Because I think it makes sense as to why I am doing what I'm doing. And I think if I go back far enough, I always used to quite like drawing, but I was never particularly good at art in the sense that they were always better artists than me, but I was always quite good at the maths and the science side of things.

And so, if I think back to, what's high school in the U.S. or A-levels in the UK, I did a bunch of science and maths-based ones, and then I did art. Art was always the one, which I was very happy to go spend my lunchtime working on my art homework, but of course, I didn't do as well in my art as all the other stuff.

And so, what I ended up doing was design engineering, which is a lovely way to blend the two things together really. So you're trying to draw for a purpose and you're trying to communicate things, come up with ideas, but then express them on paper. But they have to work as well, so you have to have the math and the science bit right.

I don't know who your heroes were growing up, but DaVinci was always one of mine. And it's quite difficult to, you know, get the breadth of what evidently Leonardo da Vinci was able to do, but that for me, when I was growing up, was always ideal, beautifully using his art to express like scientific or engineering concepts, which was cool.

So in many ways, I think that's sort of lives on in what I was still been trying to do. Way back, I was good at science and maths, but I always enjoyed the art and I was always interested also in like creative thinking, and so, when I came out of university, I spent a lot of time working on creativity, really, like design, creativity, how do you come up with new, cool ideas? And I was really interested in how we think I got really into mind maps.

So I use mind maps all the time. When pre preparing for this, and mind maps are brilliant for like visual recording and sketchnoting. I was so interested in it that I went over to UC Berkeley, where I did a Ph.D. studying new product development.

MR: Oh, wow.

JH: That was a really nice combination. So they had a great program there where you have the engineering side, but then you have the business side from the business school there. And then you have sort of industrial design, which was a collaboration with the California College of the Arts.

And so, you bring all of that together and then you want to come up with new products. But again, it's really about communicating ideas, but in a ways that the ideas have to work. Like new products, they have to be feasible and they have to be buildable, you know.

MR: Mm-hmm.

JH: UC Berkeley, I think was such an interesting place because I was also able to go explore, you know, like sociology and research methods. I did some really interesting classes in the language school there with George Lakoff on Metaphor. I was in the Berkeley Institute of Design, and they had a big focus on HCI, which is human-computer interaction.

And so, there was lots of psychology concepts that people were bringing in and were going around the place. And of course, I was involved with software. So it was lots of different influences. And I think you probably see pieces of all of those in the topics that I choose for Sketchplanations

MR: Yeah.

JH: After UC Berkeley, I found a fantastic company called Jump Associates who was actually -- I did a class at Stanford and the professor there works at Jump Associates. They're a growth strategy firm, which was all about helping companies figure out what they should do next, particularly when it came to new products.

But they had some really brilliant ways of working which still influenced me to this day. And what they were really good at, one of the things they were really good at was visual recording 'cause that's what we called it there, but in many ways, it was sketchnoting.

And so, we do a lot of working with clients where you do a workshop, you bring all the right people in the room, and you put provocative questions about, like, the nature of the project. We're trying to track what are the biggest challenges and so on. And then somebody on our team would be up there with a big whiteboard capturing the conversation and trying to get down the key ideas, and so, they didn't get lost.

And I've always had an interest in this, like, the ideas don't get lost in this sort of ether. You know, you had a conversation, some really good ideas, they floated away. Somebody wrote down something, but it wasn't necessarily the good things. And I just saw the power of like, you take a conversation and you put it up real time on the board, and it steers the conversation because it helps people come back to previous concepts that have been raised.

If somebody says, "Oh, the way I think of it is like this and this and this," and you put them up, and then later in the conversation people can see that on the board and they come back to that. And because that was like a core skill there, they really helped people develop with how to capture ideas in real-time on a board.

And even down to really basic things like how to properly hold a whiteboard pen so that you don't end up with like a thin line and then a thick line when you didn't mean to, and the color is even as you go, and what size letters should you be so that people all around the room can always read it wherever they are.

How do you keep your handwriting straight so that it doesn't end up looking like a mess? And we'd often like, take pictures of these at the end and present them and use them as a record of the discussion that we had.

And they were really valuable, I think artifacts, it was from the design process, but really for a purpose. And I think the other thing I think that Jump Associate was really interesting with was, it wasn't just physical things, but a lot of it was like frameworks or models. You are like visualizing abstract things as well.

So like, yeah, the three challenges in this. And then you try and visualize three challenges. You know, it is sort of an abstract way of thinking of things, or like business two by twos and things like that.

So I kept those skills going since Jump Associates. I worked in user experience in design at my first startup, and I was always like sketching user interfaces and like what it be, you know, user journeys, mapping out, and how people are going through your product, that kind of thing. And then back in 2012, I got a Christmas present from my sister, which was a -- they still sell it, it's a lovely book. It's a sketch-a-day journal.

A little green book about that size. If you open it up, there's two spaces for two sketches on each side of the page. So that's four days' worth, and it's literally just draw something a day. And so, I did that, and it was really lovely 'cause, you know, I'd always enjoy drawing, remember being on holidays as a kid and taking a little sketchbook postcards and stuff like that, and sitting outside in the evening and drawing them.

But I didn't find I was doing that art as much during the day anymore. And so, it was really nice just to draw something every day. And I found when I got to the end of that, I was like, "Ah, kind of miss, it seems a bit of a waste to not be drawing anymore." And then I was like, "Okay, well it would be nice also if it helped me in some way."

And so, I had this idea, well, I'll try and explain something because that's what I'm trying to do all day, is like, communicate an idea, communicate a concept. So, I'll explain something every day in a sketch. And I did that for a year, one a day. Halfway through I started posting some, 'cause they look quite nice. And I had little Moleskine what are they called? There was storyboard.

MR: Storyboard, yeah. I was guessing that that was what that you're using.

JH: Yeah. And then they really, they're really lovely. And so it was, it's a very similar format. You know, they're small sketchbooks, you open 'em up, there's four frames every now and then there's a one with three frames on one page. And just using that as like, these are my guides. I had to stay within that and, and do something.

And so I did that. And so, I started posting them and somebody said at one point, "Hey, you should put these online somewhere." And so, I started a little Tumblr page and started putting some on, on Twitter and, and people liked them. And so, I definitely found that I couldn't easily sustain one a day. But when I finished that, I went to one a week -- actually, it went to two a week first.

And I found that just didn't work at all because when there's two a week, you can always pick tomorrow to do one as opposed to today. But when there's one a week, you gotta make it happen. And now I've been doing that for 10 years. Maybe I've learned something.

MR: Wow. Sounds to me like a book opportunity to me, where you could gather, if not all, maybe the best of those sketchplanations and bound those into some kind of a book that people would buy. I would buy that book. I don't know about anybody else, but I think it would be quite nice.

JH: Thank you. Well, you know what? I am actually working on it at the moment.

MR: Oh, good. I'm glad to hear that.

JH: Yeah. After a long time, a publisher got in touch with me, somebody who've been following the newsletter and with a similar idea. And I've been, yeah, a few days a week over the last year trying to assemble everything together and I've been redoing things and checking things and it's coming together hopefully for next April, is the idea.

MR: Oh, great. That would be great. You have to let us know so we can share it with the Sketchnote Army community, so we can definitely get some pre-orders and purchases going for you.

JH: Definitely do that. Thank you.

MR: I know in the publishing business these days, pre-orders are a huge deal. Often publishers give away special tidbits to get you to pre-order. It looks very good on the sales charts. So if we can help in that way, I think the people here would be really your ideal customer for buying that for themselves and others.

JH: Well, I'll definitely take your tips on this. This would be book number one for me. So yeah, all your advice is welcome, and all your help. That'd be brilliant. Thank you.

MR: Yeah. You're so welcome. Well, this is pretty fascinating. It's interesting, our paths in some ways are parallel. Not exactly, but I was never the best artist either. I just was more practical in the work that I did. So I sort of took what art skill I had and sort of applied it to practical things. And so, that just kind of led me on my path. I'm also a user experience designer as well.

And I had a period of time for about three years where we did very similar things to what you talked about with the whiteboard with developers. So we would queue up software features that needed to be added to our software we were building. And we would sit down on Mondays and queue it up, look at what existed in the old software, do we like it? How could we improve it? Okay, let's have a discussion, and I would go to the board and document most of it.

Occasionally, a developer would ask to come up and draw, which always was my highlight of my day. And they would draw concepts, we would annotate it, take a photo, throw it on a SharePoint space, and sometimes the developers would just take the sketches we did and build right off of that. And other times I'd do mockups to kind of move things forward.

So, when you talked about that, I remembered how enjoyable that was for everybody. Really, everybody in that group. Developers, product owners, business analysts, all seemed to really enjoy it because as you say, there were these great ideas floating around in the ether if no one was attending to that to try and --

I had this idea of like, someone catching butterflies with a net. Like if you didn't catch those butterflies and pin them, you know, to the wall they would be lost because, you know, that person themselves maybe didn't even realize how valuable that idea was. You really needed someone to spot it and then capture it. So I think that's a really valuable way to work.

**JH:**Yeah. It's interesting that I have two real contrasting experiences there. Which one was this engineering world. And if you think of like, oh, you know, you want to see how fast this is gonna go when it knocks into that, it's like you draw the diagram, it's all established what the principles are. You don't just explain it with words, you draw it out exactly as it's gonna happen, right?

And then I did some classes in the education department at UC Berkeley, and we were talking about all sorts of really fascinating and difficult topics like reliability and validity and some concepts from sociology and things like that. And we'd sit in these rooms and do the reading beforehand, come in, and then you talk for an hour and lots of interesting points will come up, and everybody would just sort of absorb it, I guess, and scribble the odd word down and then walk off.

And I remember thinking as I left those classes, there was some really good stuff there, but I think everybody's gonna come out with a different view of it, and people are gonna forget some parts and remember others. And it's just a shame you can't get some middle ground a bit where you can talk about them things which are a bit more abstract, but actually help give them shape, give them a form that we can all be sure we're talking about the same thing.

And that happens in product development so often. You talked about software where we all talk about an idea and we all assume that we've got the same idea, but in fact, we don't. And part of what drawing it on the board is, and even just sometimes it's words, right? Trying to put it concretely into words is realizing, "Oh, when you said that, I was thinking of something different."

And it just puts this sort of shared space where you can all look at it and go, "Oh, yeah, now we're all on the same page here. And it was fascinating these discussions in the educator's department, but I'm sure we came across -- we left it with all sorts of different ideas, you know, afterwards.

MR: I used to call that -- I don't know if I got this term from somewhere or what, but I called it the illusion of agreement. So we all thought we agreed, but we all had different ideas in our heads. And if you didn't do something to sort of establish. Often, I would joke around with people like, okay, what we're doing here is we're just, I'm putting things on the board so we have something to argue about, right? To disagree about. Because if you start with something to disagree about, it least you have some starting point, and then you can work toward agreement from there.

So, you know, often it wasn't necessarily disagreement, but it was not uncommon for one person to talk about something and I would draw it on the board and they'd say, "No, no, that's not exactly what I was thinking." And then I'd hand the marker to them and they would come up and draw it and make it clear from their perspective.

And it sort of gave some solidity or some physicality or something to that idea. But then we could say, "Oh, okay, now I see what you're saying, and now let's have the discussion around that." We would build on it. And, you know, often that would be the solution that would work for us. So that was quite enjoyable.

JH: Yeah. The illusion of agreement is a great term. My thesis in the end was about reframing in the design process and how you settle as a design team on the framing of the design problem. And a lot of -- well, you wrote a paper about the how does teams establish a shared frame of things. And some of it is like when you put something out there, the conflicts and the differences become salient, whereas they weren't before.

And exactly that you all leave the meeting thinking that, "Great, we all know what to do", and you all think you've all actually got different ideas in mind about what that is. And when you come back later and you've built the wrong thing, everybody's like, "No, no, that's not what I meant." And so how do you head that off as early as possible? And some of it's making it concrete, and that's what the visuals are useful for.

MR: Yeah. Maybe the biggest risk in that illusion of agreement walking away is you actually build five new things. Well, then which of the five will we choose, right? Or is there overlap enough that they could be merged into one thing so that we're not spending energy in five directions, we redirect toward one direction, and kind of come to an agreement together?

JH: Yeah. Love that. And the sort of thing I still come across in my day job on a regular basis.

MR: Something else that struck me, and this is just something that struck me and relates to my education, is it sounded like Berkeley did lots of cross-training. So there was lots of overlap of departments, or at least for you as a student, you were kind of stepping into a variety of what would seem like unrelated spaces, but yet they are very related.

In my education and history, I went to a technical school and they were really, really adamant at that time about this cross-training. So if you were a designer, and this is like old school print designer, that's when I went to school, you were required to take photography classes because in those days you would work with photographers all the time to, you know, describe to them what you're looking for as a designer, and they would inform you. So you had to understand like, what are the materials that they work with so you could really understand it.

And also, printers. And I found myself working in the printing room and because I was so practical, I would often become almost like a teaching assistant down there because I had some history taking printing classes prior. So I would be in the design classes, sort of being the assistant to the teacher who often wasn't in the darkroom showing how to shoot films or whatever the thing was we were doing.

And so, I became sort of this teacher, but I always loved the cross-training 'cause I felt like I understood more of the holistic job that we were all doing together, even though my part was just one piece of it gave me a better appreciation of those and how they fit together. And it sounds like maybe you're doing something like that at Berkeley.

JH: Yeah. One of the things it is interesting is a difference I think in general between like doing a doctorate in the UK versus often I think in the U.S. Whereas in the UK typically, you might find a research advisor who's got a project idea and you are interested in it too, and it's all sort of settled and you go off and you do that research, it takes three years and then you present it.

In Berkeley, which I really appreciated, it wasn't expected that you come in knowing what it is exactly you wanna do. You're like, "I had an idea of what I was interested in." But essentially you spent the first two years taking classes to basically get you to be, I'd say like getting on for a world expert in each of these areas, really build your knowledge.

But that, I guess, gave you a huge amount of flexibility. And so, yeah, it was brilliant to be able to take classes in the language school. And I remember doing ones on game design and I took some in the information school and the education department and just that sort of breadth of knowledge and you never know which ideas are gonna be the ones coming in to be useful.

And I definitely really appreciated that. Whereas if I, you know, a traditional way, I was like, "Oh, I was in design engineering, I stay in the engineering school." That's where I do all my classes. But actually, I think it broadened my outlook and probably improved the end product is great deal by being able to do all that.

And hopefully, one of the things I think is interesting about sketchplanations is it's, I think, you know, none of us, just because you work in one area doesn't mean that's the only thing you're good at or the only thing you're interested in.

And so, it's nice to be able to go, you know, well here's the thing on wellbeing or healthcare, and then here's the thing about design and here's the thing about, you know, a business tool. And any of us can appreciate all of those. So yeah, I love the idea of being able to take ideas from lots of different places. It was definitely valuable to me.

MR: Well, we have lots of educators who I think listen to the podcast, so at the very least this can be an encouragement to teachers, teachers, if you're listening that doing cross-training with your students is really valuable, even if the students don't realize it in the moment.

You know, I certainly had plenty of colleagues in my university, in my technical school who grumbled that they had to go do photography class or had to do drawing. You know, "I'm a printer, why do I need to do these things?" But ultimately, it gave them a better-rounded experience. So if you're an educator, if you can find ways to sneak in cross-training, Jono and I are big fans of the idea.

JH: Hundred percent.

MR: Well, you sort of led us to what you're doing these days. What are you currently up to now? Are you working on software? Are you working on hardware? And how does you know, your visualization skills sort of fit into the work you're doing today?

JH: Yeah, I mean, I split my time at the moment. So a few days a week, I'm working, say right now on pulling together a book for sketchplanations and still continuing that. In the day-to-day, I lead product development team and -- well, four product development teams.

The company I'm working at is called Zen Educate. And we built a platform that connects schools with substitute teachers. So, oh, you can think about a bit like an Uber or an Airbnb, but for teachers to find work at schools and vice versa.

It is just such a really nice area where you're bringing in different skill sets and you're forced to do that. So you have to have people who know about education, and then you have to have software developers and you have a product manager and you have a designer, and you try and bring all of that expertise together to create something that is gonna provide value for teachers and for schools.

I do less of this specific day-to-day design and things than I used to. But you know, both the companies I've worked on the last 10 years started when they were very small. And I really like that phase 'cause just have to do everything otherwise nothing happens. But it's really nice.

So, you know, you're going out and doing research interviews, but you're also sketching interfaces, you're testing things as before they're delivered, you're writing product releases, you're communicating with, you know, stakeholders internally or the board members, you know, and all sorts of things.

And so, yeah, my job is a mix of all of that at the moment. I think we provide a great service for schools and we actually save. It's more efficient so we save schools money and we can pay teachers more. And we started in the UK, but we've since launched in the U.S. which is really exciting. So yeah, lots to keep me busy on that front too.

MR: That's pretty cool having those two clients, right? You know, schools needing on-demand teachers and then teachers being out there on a bench looking for an opportunity that you're just sort of putting those two things together in a great way. That's pretty cool.

JH: Yeah. And just as an example about where I think of visualization helping in that kind of thing, there's some really -- so it's a marketplace. You've got two sides of a marketplace and you have to balance supply and demand. And, you know, in some ways that's very concrete because you take a specific job that's available, let's say, and a teacher who wants to do it, and you wanna have to connect them properly. But there's also, just how do you think about a marketplace and making this successful?

And so, there's a nice concept called the Amazon flywheel, and there's another one called, I think it was Uber's virtuous cycle. I did sketches of both of those. And they just help you sort of -- you'll see like it is a little cycle like, you know, the more teachers you have on the marketplace, the better the matches are with the jobs, let's say, so the better the experience for schools, which means they put more of jobs available, which means that tracks more teachers. And so, you end up with like a flywheel.

And so, the same is true for Amazon's marketplace. The same is true for the density of drivers on Uber or journeys that you can do. And I just think like, it's interesting how it's easy, it's fine to talk about that, but it's so different when you put like a visualization or something like that, people just get it. You're like, "Oh, yeah, I see how it works." Whereas day to day there's like million little bits of data points, but trying to communicate abstract ways of thinking about these things, is sometimes super valuable. And so, I still like it at that sort of level.

MR: Yeah. And I imagine some people, like a developer, let's say, they're looking at this one little piece, like, I need to deliver this feature, or, but there is this whole flywheel or thing happening and they could see their position within it and why it's important what they're doing, right? So it gives meaning in a lot of ways.

Where if you just were heads down, pounding away on this feature, it wouldn't maybe have the same meaning to you, right? Like, "Hey, I'm part of this flywheel, or our goal is to really get this moving forward and let it have its own momentum."

JH: Yeah. Everybody's a connection to what's the point of what you're doing? There's dude, you should come across Dan Pink has really nice framework autonomy, mastery, purpose about motivation.

And so, I did a sketch of that and I think the purpose side of it is just so like, why am I doing what I'm doing? It's not exciting for me to be just creating this button, but if this button's gonna do this and that's gonna enable this bigger picture thing, then yeah, keeps you getting up every day.

MR: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, this has been really, really interesting and fascinating. We'll have to look around a little bit and if you've got those particular concepts and sketchplanations, maybe we can have some direct links to those so those who are listening or watching can pop 'em up on the screen and take a peek. So we'll work on that for the show notes later.

Let's shift now to your tools. I'm always really fascinated by the tools people use. Sometimes they're pretty common and sometimes I'm surprised. Let's start with analog first. It seems like you do do analog drawing, or at least you used to when I first encountered you. Have you made a shift to digital, or you still feel really good about the pen-on-paper feel, and what pens and paper do you like?

JH: Yeah, I'm always a bit conflicted because, you know, this digital just has these massive advantages. But it still, there's nothing that quite is come close to the feeling of just writing in a notebook. So anyway, I do have it alongside me here.

So I have this kind of daily notebook that I'll always take, and so that's got like my, you know, mixes of to-do lists or here's a UI idea or yeah, here's me sketching out this framework, or here's a mind map for content for this talk. For the analog stuff, so I still do carry around a physical notebook, but my preference are dotted notebooks.

MR: Yes. Yeah.

JH: Yeah, I say I was always interested in credit problem-solving. I just think dotted just solves the problem. Like it basically looks like it's a blank page, which is lovely, but it allows you to structure data and actually like, do things in straight lines. And it helps guide your drawings without getting in the way of the content.

It was, Edward Tufte has this idea of a ghost grid, so there's a grid behind the whole thing which doesn't get in the way, you don't really notice at the end. So anyway, I really like the dotted notebooks. This one is a leach term. I never know how to pronounce it.

MR: Yeah, German company, group they call it.

JH: Good quality journal. But probably most of my ones I've had are the Moleskine. They're about, I don't know, bit bigger than A5. The large ones with a sort of flexible leather cover, and they do some really nice dotted ones as well.

I've tried plain, and plain looks lovely if you're just drawing, but if you're also making lists or structuring stuff and you want things to be in straight lines, the dotted is just so much better. Usually, I like ones with bright colors, that one's black, but you know.

MR: Yeah. I've got my bright-colored LEUCHTTURM is here as well.

JH: Yeah, absolutely.

MR: And I think LEUCHTTURM has done a really great job of finding that right gray level. So as an old printer, I know how tricky it is. They must use some kind of a special color, but it's just dark enough that you see it, but light enough that it fades in the background.

Some dotted notebooks don't do as good a job of this, and the dots are too dark and you know, they become noise. And so, you know, you don't appreciate it until you come across a notebook where they don't pay attention to those details and it just constantly gets in your way. So I think LEUCHTTURM has done a good job with that.

JH: Yeah. If people are giving out free notebooks, normally they're lined ones, I just can't get on with the lined ones.

MR: Yeah. It's not for me either. Not unless I'm writing a journal, but even in a journal I would just use dotted as well because it's got just enough structure. What about pens? It sounds like using Moleskine and LEUCHTTURM primarily.

JH: Yeah. For pens, I'm heavily influenced by what we had at Jump Associates, which I just think works beautifully. I actually can't find them very easily now. But there are some Uniball Vision Elite pens which is my preferred just everyday pens and they do nice sets of colors now, but I honestly just quite like the blacks and the blues.

That's just something about they have just like the right they beautiful clean lines and they're dark and they're bold and they're smooth to write with, and they don't bleed through too much. Yeah, you get the right-thickness ones, but yeah Uniball Vision Elites are the ones I like.

And then I always used to carry -- I sort of have -- I usually have two pens in my pocket, in any one time. But a black and then a highlight color, like a green or a red, and then I would have a Copic marker with me. I was used to carry around like usually a gray or sort of beige Copic marker, just to allow you to give a little background, a little shape to things. And I just think that just made a huge difference.

I think when I was doing a lot of paper stuff, I'd have also have like a bright color Copic marker as well for highlighting stuff, but not so much anymore. But I mean they've strongly influenced because I started analog, all the sketchplanations, they're basically, I keep to a simple color palette and often a bit of just gray in the background and that's, that's the influence of those pens.

MR: Yeah. And I can just imagine, I'm not looking at one of your sketchplanations, but all those things you just said, you know, black with a highlight color and a shadow is sort of like, you know, the recipe for a sketchplanation, and a square, right? Sort of those basic elements, I guess.

JH: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't know if a square necessarily, I'm looking around 'cause I have a bunch on my wall.

MR: I see some behind you now. Yeah.

JH: Yeah, yeah. I have a few of my favorite ones. But there is something about just like I think back to the storyboard notebooks, which I do really still really like, they just give you this frame to work in and sometimes the constraint is just really helpful. You like, okay, it's gotta work in here.

MR: And what about digital? Are you using some kind of digital tool? You sound like you were conflicted when you first began, so I suspect that's true.

JH: Yeah, I did. So I don't know when it was like five or six years ago, I moved to an iPad Pro when the iPad Pro and the pencil first came out. I think I still have the sort of initial large iPad Pro, the sort of a three size -- A3, A4 size one.

**MR: ** The big one. Yeah.

JH: Yeah. Which I really -- I mean, they're probably much better now, but it still works. It still works really nicely and I think the pencil's still pretty good.

MR: Yeah.

JH: Yeah, all of the sketchplanations I do now with that, but I know if I'm still just doing it, if I'm sketching a user interface quickly or something, I'll do that in my notebook and take a quick photo and sending Slack or something. And then you said that most people use Procreate. I have Procreate installed. I don't use Procreate.

MR: Interesting.

JH: Yeah. I use something called SketchBook Pro, if you've come across
that.

MR: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, of course.

JH: It's Autodesk one, but you know, the free versions really good and they added a little thing that you can pay for that allows you to do a few extra bits, which is just super useful. I usually think like, you know, that phrase that "The best camera is the one you have with you."

MR: Yeah.

JH: It's kind of like, it doesn't really matter. Like what's more important is that you're able to write stuff down or make a note when you're inspired and that you just get to know your tools.

MR: Yes.

JH: Like, I'm sure I could get really good at Procreate, but I've kind of got the SketchBook Pro does what I want now, and so, you know, maybe one day I'll try something different, but it does what I want. And that's more important, is knowing your tools, I think than which tool you are using.

MR: Yeah, I agree. It's simple and effective and, you know, your fluid, so you know, if you want get yourself out of the way if you're fiddling with tools, that's not a good thing when you're trying to get a concept out because like you say that whatever's floating around in your head and the ether could get lost just as well, right, so you wanna move quick and catch it before it disappears, so.

JH: Yeah. Exactly.

MR: Autodesk's app is a classic. It's been around, I think since the beginning of the iPad. I think they ported it pretty early, so it's been around for quite a long time. And I've run into a few other people that use it. I use Paper by WeTransfer in that way. I just know the tool really deeply and if I need to get a concept out, I just pop it up and it's there and I go with it.

So in a similar way, but I do use Procreate for illustration work. If I know that my work will be scaled or I need modifications, Concepts is great for that 'cause it's vector-based, so gives me that additional level of control. So it really, I've been starting to try and be more specific around what is the task that I want to do, and then I choose the tool to fit it, but Paper is sort of my default.

If I don't have to choose, I'll go there first. And then if I have a specific need, I go to these other tools. And like you, I have to force myself because I would just be comfortable using this one tool. But, you know, illustrations have to be a certain resolution.

Paper it's not set up that way. It's not that kind of a tool. So I needed to move into Procreate and it's been a great tool for that. And same thing with Concepts, when those illustrations need to be scalable it's been a great tool for that. So I feel fortunate.

But it's hard, like when you invest a lot of time in a tool, you know, it's an intentional move to do spend time on another tool because you have to learn all that new stuff and you almost need like a project. You can't just do it fiddling around because there's not enough motivation. You really need a project, I think, to make you motivated to see results. So that's really interesting.

JH: Yeah. I think because sketchplanations is weekly, I never feel like I quite have enough time in a week to transition to something new. So I've never made the switch to try out new things. I was just like, "Right. Well, let's keep going with this one because I know it's gonna work right now."

MR: So that seems like a good fit for that purpose then.

JH: Yeah. I doubt, I mean, you know, any of these tools you see, people can draw beautiful, unbelievable things in all of them. So, you know, if they can do that, surely, surely this one's good enough for me, so.

MR: Yeah. I'm kind of curious, do you ever -- I'm assuming you must have a huge backlog of potential topics that you could draw, or do you struggle every week like, "Oh man, what am I gonna draw? It's Thursday, I better hurry up and pick a topic." And, "Okay. Got it done, Friday, whew. Okay. I hope I have something next week." Does it tend to be one side or the other, or do you have like a huge stack of like, logs waiting for you to pick and burn the fire?

JH: Yeah. Have you ever read the book, I think there was one about Bill Watterson and Calvin and Hobbs and how he drew Calvin and Hobbs.

MR: I haven't read that one. That would be fun.

JH: I forget exactly what it's called, but there's one, it was an extended interview with him about his process from the museum where they have his work. And I think I do it a little bit like he did it which is what he often would do is like, come up with a number of ideas for strips, sometimes draw 'em out just really roughly.

And then sometimes he would go through and ink them, and then later on he would come through and color them, let's say, and say at any one point, he might have three or five of them on the go and like do a day where he's like inking a day when he's coloring them all.

And so, I'm a little bit more like that so I have ones in various stages of being done. So I do, I do have a giant backlog of like, "Oh, that would be a cool sketch one day I should do that." That keeps coming up.

But I also have lots of draft sketches where I've started something or I'm like, oh, actually, you know, one day I put down three ideas or three different sketches and how I might do it. And then one week I might come across and do two of those and then post one of them, you know, that kind of thing.

So I always have this multi-stream approach. And also, I think for me, sometimes I guess it's kind of like this with any art, like you get to the end and it looks totally straightforward, but often I had to get through a lot of thinking in order to get there.

And so, sometimes just like putting an -- even if I pick, I'm gonna do this one this week, and I put that down the Friday before, and my brain can be turning that over through the days, over the next week. And so, I've actually by Wednesday, I've come up with a great example for it, and then I'll draw it on Thursday, you know, that kind of thing.

So yeah, that's kind of my process. But I do have a giant list and people send me great ideas all the time. So, the ideas come in faster than I can draw in for sure.

MR: If you think about it in the plant term, it's like you've got a big bucket of seeds and then you're planting these plants and you're watering them through, you know, constantly. And then when it seems like that one's ready, you pull it forward and finish it up and push it out and another seed comes and gets planted and you keep on watering. And it's sort of like the gardener of sketchplanations.

JH: That's a nice metaphor. Yeah, I like it. That's exactly how I meant to describe it.

MR: There you go. You can have that for free, Jono.

JH: Thank you.

MR: So Jono, tell us some tips you have for us. I like to frame it as someone's listening, they're a visual thinker of some kind, but they maybe feel like they're on hit a plateau. And I like to ask guests to give them encouragement. What would be three tips that you would tell someone like that to encourage them? Could be anything, can be mental tips, it can be practical tips, bring an extra pencil, something like that. So I'll leave it to you, but just three tips would be great.

JH: Yeah, so I gave a little bit of thought to this, and I came up with some of which I think are maybe disarmingly simple, perhaps. So the first one is, I have a concept -- I actually have a mouse mat of it right here, which is, the first draft is always perfect. And I really like this framing because it basically says, your first draft is probably gonna be rubbish, but that's okay 'cause that's the job of the first draft, and that's what makes it perfect.

And so, I guess my experience is there was when I'm stuck, or I'm not sure what to do, I just have to make myself do anything. And actually, I find just doing something is enough to like unblock it. And getting away from this idea that whatever you're gonna do is gonna be great, is just very liberating. And so, this idea of the first draft is always perfect, is a nice way to come to me.

I have another sketch, actually, it's up on my wall, which is called the Doorstep Mile, which is this really nice Scandinavian concept, I think, which is like, getting started can be the hardest part, which is like stepping out of your door. Like it's easy to go for a run once you've got your trainers on and you're outta your door. So you just have to get started. So first draft is always perfect.

I strongly believe like this idea that great ideas come during the hard work and not before it. So like, you don't have to have your great idea and then start work. Usually, all the best ideas I've had of while I'm doing the work. So get started.

The second tip I would have is to keep it simple. And the reason I say that is because I think it's easy to have really high expectations about, you know, what things are gonna turn out like, but actually in many ways, simple stuff is just as helpful as complex stuff. And sometimes it's even more useful.

I'm reminded of some diagrams which have been super helpful at work and in discussions where people literally just boxes and lines with texting. Like anybody can do boxes and lines. Sometimes I find just laying out words, like, if there's a process, I like lay out the words in an order, and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, this one becomes for that one." And I find that is valuable and clarifying to me. And it doesn't have to be like a complex visual in any ways.

And I think the other aspect to keep it simple, I think definitely for me it was, it's easy to get thrown by drawing people. And you'll see obviously, like in sketchplanations, my people are super, super simple, just a little bit more than a stick man.

But there are lots of ways actually to draw really simple people, which just allow you to put a person in there but not get hung up on the drawing of the person. And, you know, like drawing a star, it kind of looks like a person. You can do somebody jumping and that's fine, and that gets the idea across, and it doesn't have to be perfect. So keeping it simple is my second tip.

And my third tip is, keep going. My experience again is that I've done so many drawings where about halfway through they looked pretty rubbish. And I think often, you know, people ask me about, "Oh yeah, how can I learn to draw?" And I very much believe it's easy to start drawing something and it looked rubbish and then just stop and then assume that you couldn't do it or you weren't getting there.

And so often, I mean, partly the nice thing about sketchplanations is it's like clockwork. It's gonna make me do it, so I just keep going. And there's very often times where halfway through it felt like it wasn't working, the drawing wasn't right.

You know, like if you saw all the sketches along the way, sometimes, you know, they're awful, but you keep going at it and you refine this bit and you change this bit and you switch the direction, and then after a while, you get to a point where it looks really good.

And it's so easy to assume that people just come across and do the good thing straight away, but. So my tip is just even when you look at it is to keep going. In my research, there was a guy called Donald Shan who's an architect, and he did a lot of research about how do you teach and learn architecture.

He talked about drawing as a reflexive conversation with the situation, which takes a while to get your head around, but the idea is that you put a line on the page and then you see that line and that line informs your next line.

And so, there's this constant like back and forth and like, "Oh, I put this down and it doesn't quite fit so I moved it over there and I erased this bit and I moved it over there." And you're doing these hundreds of iterations just while you're just still working on it.

But you don't get that if you just stop on your first bit when it didn't come out like you want to. So those are my, my three ideas. So yeah, first draft is always perfect. Keep it really simple. You keep going.

MR: Those are three great tips. And I wholeheartedly believe in each one, and was imagining moments in my experience where I felt the same way. Especially number two, like getting partway into something and thinking, "Oh, this is not going the way I want." I'll just say, well, I'll just keep going a little bit more. Let's tweak that a little bit.

And a lot of times I found that the thing that I thought was going nowhere was a problem halfway through. By the time I get done with it, it's like one of my favorite things because, you know, there was really potential there that I had to unearth that potential to keep working it, working it, working it, until it developed into the thing, like you kind of fell in love with it, which is kind of a fun experience. So definitely believe in that.

JH: I always love the making of things, and like I went to see, it was a random gallery in Washington State where they had a Dr. Zeus exhibition and it had like his sketches before the final books.

And it's just always fascinating seeing people's process and realizing it's probably just as messy and confused as yours is. And it's quite liberating. Whenever we watch films, I'm always more interested in the making of the film than the film itself, not -- you know, I love that stuff.

MR: Yeah. If you happen to be a "Star Wars" fan and watch "Mandalorian," there was really great series. In addition to the show where it talks about how they made it and some of the crazy stuff they went through to achieve these, what at the outset seemed like impossible, "How are we going to do that?" They had some crazy idea and they, through process and everybody being creative, they were able to solve it. And you get to see how they achieved it.

And when you watch the episode, you know, you wouldn't even think of all the hoops that they're jumping through to make that happen, but yet they pulled it off. So, yeah, in the same way, I love that.

JH: Absolutely. I love it.

MR: Yeah. Well, thanks so much for those tips, Jono. Well, this has been really enjoyable chatting with you and getting inside of the way you think and your process, and so forth. Tell us, if someone's listening, how do they find sketch explanations? How do they find you? What's the best place to find you?

JH: Yeah, I mean, it's always a bit of a curse. Sketchplanations is not the easiest word to say or spell, but it does make sense when you think of that sketch explanation. So yeah, I mean, sketchplanations.com, I think I have, you know, pretty much monopoly on if you type that into any search engine, and it should probably correct and point you in the right direction.

If you're struggling with that, you can always put in Joho Hey, and that'll help get you there pretty quick. That's H-E-Y. And then we also started a podcast this year, which was quite fun.

MR: Oh, great.

JH: Yeah. Interesting. Like different angles, obviously, it's all visual, so in some ways, it's mad to do a podcast about something that's visual, but --

MR: Well, that's what you're on now is the podcast about sketchnoting.

JH: Yeah, exactly. But actually, it's been a lot of fun. You like taking a topic and like I say, going a bit deeper into than I can, just in a little quick sketch. And chatting about that, that's been fun. So that's sketchplanations.com/podcast.

MR: Great.

JH: But everything's pretty much there on the sketchplanation site.

MR: Can find you there. Great. Well, we'll definitely link it up. And in the meantime, between us recording now and this is getting published we'll see if we can get links to the things you've mentioned, the visuals that you mentioned in our discussion, and we'll link those up too, so that way if someone's listening and they wanna see what the Amazon flywheel or whatever, I think I've mixed that up, but yeah, the concept, they can pick it up to have peek, which would be great.

JH: Perfect.

MR: Well, thanks Jono. I'm really impressed with your reliability and your ability to continue going after 10 years. Some people would very easily be bored or would drive them mad, and it seems like you just keep on leaning into it and enjoying it.

That's really an encouraging thing to see, and I appreciate it. I think it's a great thing for the world, and I speak for all the other fans of your work. Thank you for the work you're doing. It's really valuable.

JH: Thank you, Mike. Yeah, I mean, I always consider it -- honestly, it's like the attention economy, right? People look at lots of places they can spend their attention, and it's a privilege to have a place where you can send something out and people will pay attention to it. So that's one of the things that keeps me going is that take that opportunity seriously.

And, you know, I also think a bit like you -- with this podcast, it's helped me out a huge deal as well. Like, it's not completely like selfless. I'm not just doing this for everybody else. Like I've got better a whole host of things as a result of doing this project.

The people I really had to thank is my wife and family for allowing me to go off on Saturdays from time to time and finish some sketches when I should be helping out around the house or, you know, having fun, but there you go. Yeah.

MR: There you go. Well, thanks so much, Jono. It's been a pleasure. And for those who are listening or watching, this is another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast. Until the next episode, talk to you soon.

JH: Thanks, Mike.

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In this episode, Ingrid describes the evolution of her visual thinking journey which now plays a crucial role in assisting both creative professionals and business owners in understanding their client's experiences through Big Picture storyboarding.

Sponsored by Concepts

This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android.

Concepts' vector-based drawing feature gives you the power to adjust your drawings saving hours and hours of rework.

Vectors provide clean, crisp, high-resolution output for your sketchnotes at any size you need s ideal for sketchnoting.

SEARCH in your favorite app store to give it a try.

Running Order

• Intro
• Welcome
• Who is Ingrid Lill
• Origin Story
• Ingrid Lill's current work
• Sponsor: Concepts
• Tips
• Tools
• Where to find Ingrid Lill
• Outro

Links

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Mike Rohde’s Big Idea Sketchiest with Ingrid
• Donald Miller's book - Building a StoryBrand
• Tim Urban's book - Wait But Why?
• Website
• Membership site
• LinkedIn
• Youtube

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• Concepts
• iPad Pro
• Adobe Illustrator
• Wacom Cintiq
• Procreate
• Neuland flexible tip marker
• Neuland art markers
• Black fineliner pen
• Ink tins
• Pencils
• Waterbrush
• Watercolor
• A3 Smooth paper

Tips

1. Message first. Use your drawing to communicate.
2. Keep it simple.
3. Experiment. Use your art on your everyday use.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro

Subscribe to the Sketchnote Army Podcast

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Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike, and I'm here with Ingrid Lill. Ingrid, it's so good to have you on the show. Thanks for coming.

Ingrid Lill: Thank you, Mike for having me. You're one of my heroes, one of the first ones who taught me how to sketch note.

MR: Oh, thank you. That's so nice of you. Well, you know, probably we'll get into it a little bit is some of the work that we did together, but I think before we get into that discussion, I would love for you to sort of set the context. Who are you and what do you do with the work that you do?

IL: My name is Ingrid Lill. I'm originally from Germany. I've been living in Denmark for 20 years on the countryside. And I—should I tell my whole story already now?

MR: Sure. That was my next question is how did you end up in the place where you are? Maybe start—

IL: Maybe first, what I'm doing now.

MR: Yeah.

IL: I am a communication designer turn business coach with a pencil. I am helping coaches, consultants, and creatives, and whoever needs to do that, clarify their message through visual thinking, and I do that on several levels.

MR: Cool.

IL: Yeah.

MR: And you've done that with me. So we can talk about that in the future. I would love to hear now, how did you end up in that place? You talked about being a communication designer. It sounds like from our discussions before, what you did wasn't so far away from what I did when I came out of university, which was graphic design.

IL: That's true.

MR: Yeah.

IL: That's true, graphic design, yeah, yeah.

MR: Really old-school graphic design with pens and—

IL: Really old school.

MR: —rulers and all that old stuff.

IL: Yeah, yeah. I mean, as a child, I drew, and as many people who are drawing and want to also make money, I studied graphic design. And I had drawing and painting at the side as an artist and made graphic design and all this visual communication stuff to make money.

When I started out on it, when I graduated, there were no computers, so we did actually hand-drawn layouts which was fun, but that disappeared when computers came on the scene. And then for many years, all the drawing was really only hobby and computer was it. And I was also happy for it because I didn't really like the manual graphic design work.

Yeah, and then I worked as a graphic designer and an art director, and several jobs in this thing. Also, on my own, had my own business. And at some point, I got tired of it. I was tired of having this divide between the really creative me on one side and the job, the making money on the other side. So I wanted to bring it together. And when I heard about, or when I saw the first graphic facilitation things on the internet, I thought, "Huh, what is that?" It was like a revelation.

And I started investigating, and it was a totally new way of drawing for me. Before, drawing was art, and then I found out drawing can be communication. I've never done my own illustrations when I was working as a graphic designer because I thought I'm not good enough for it or something, whatever I thought.

But this kind of drawing, which was so simple that I thought, I can do that. And so, I learned that. And I also knew if I wanted to get out and make a business, build a business that is more me and more fun and more creative, I needed to draw, I needed to dare to be visible with it.

And I started posting drawings on Facebook. And I remember the first time I posted something, a drawing I did was in some thread a discussion on Facebook. And I did a little drawing and I uploaded it, and my heart was pounding, and I thought, "Huh." I don't why.

MR: What did I do?

IL: What did I do? Yeah, yeah. But nobody even noticed. It was just, I had a point to make and I did a drawing that illustrated that point. It was not about that the drawing had to be beautiful. And that was kind of the—how do you say that? I crossed the boundary with that. Drawing is useful, can be useful, and it can also be fun and all other kinds of stuff, but it doesn't have to be. It just has to convey a message. And that's where all my—

MR: Functional.

IL: Yeah, functional, but also expressing your personality in a way it always does. And that's what all my work now is revolving around. I did also some graphic recording here, locally in Denmark. But what happened then was when I posted my drawings on Facebook, people liked them. I was actually telling my story about finding out what to do next. People liked it, and then I started giving drawing classes, and my business evolved in other directions.

MR: Something interesting I thought of when you were talking about, you saw a graphic record or you saw a facilitation, and up to that point you thought, "Well, I never used illustration in my graphic design work 'cause I didn't think I was good enough." I thought the same thing. I always thought of myself as a graphic designer.

And for people that don't understand that about that time, if I'm thinking it's about the right time, that was like the golden age, the peak of illustration where people could make a living doing illustration work. Like many people. If you were a good enough artist, you could make a living. And it was really great quality stuff.

So when we say that, when Ingrid and I say that we weren't good enough, it's because we were up against the best illustrators in the entire world were at their peak, and we really weren't good enough to compete at that in that game, in the game that they were playing, which was, you know, stuff that people are using like AI to do now, or mid-journey or something like—

IL: Airbrush stuff. Oh God.

MR: Right, right. So there was very, very specific skills, and because there wasn't really computer capability, it was all analog stuff, which is really hard to do, and therefore it costs a lot and only the best organizations could afford to do that. So there was like this whole—when you say, "Oh, I just wasn't good enough." And you think, well, you know, in that context, there really was amazing work being done, and we really weren't good enough to play that game.

So what we realized, I think you and I was, well, what if we play a different game? What if we play a game where we just do our simple drawing to communicate and it's functional? And that was the thing that blew Ingrid's mind. Am I right in kind of guessing at that?

IL: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But also, what didn't occur to me back then was that I could make my own game. That I could make a business out of the drawings that I'm capable of doing. Maybe it would've been possible, probably but it didn't occur to me. I thought I needed to follow some mainstream something. And only when I became older and thought, now it's enough of trying to follow other people's ideas, now I'm making my own rules for myself.

MR: Yeah. So now let's step into the work that you and I did, which is representative of the kind of work you're doing for your clients. So about, I dunno, it was about two months ago or something like that. We're talking in August, so it was about two months ago maybe. Ingrid reached out to me and invited me to do a session with her over Zoom where she would talk with me about what I wanted to do with whatever I wanted to. So I chose, well, I've got these two books and I'm trying to figure out like, what's the next thing? Where do I go next?

So basically, Ingrid walked through with me and started going back into my history and asking me questions, and then visualizing this journey and starting to make sense of like what was in my head.

So in a sense, she was sketchnoting my thinking, but it was more than this. It wasn't so much just recording what I said. She was also facilitating by guiding me and asking questions, probing questions, and then visualizing it and sort of making sense of it, in the moment so I could see it all unfolding on the screen as she worked.

And then eventually, we finished that session, and then she kind of fixed up some things and added a little bit of color, and then there is a finished piece. Well, I'll put a link in the show notes for you so you could see what this looks like, including there's a recording of the session that you can watch that Ingrid has shared. So you can watch it happen and then see the final output.

As a visual thinker to go through that experience is really fascinating because it's sort of dawned on me a little bit what other people often feel like when I do visualizations of what they're saying. I think I kind of do something kind of similar, maybe in a different venue in my user experience design work where I'm extracting their thinking and trying to make sense of it. But it's the same kind of activity.

So talk to me like, when did you come to that specific expression of the work that you're doing? Is that a pretty recent thing? How long have you been doing that?

IL: No, that's several years. It's not recent. It's evolving. And the thing that you have been on is my very new big idea sketch cast which is my idea or at the start of a YouTube channel that I'm trying, and I'm interviewing interesting people. So this was only a little thing. Normally when I do with people, it's much longer.

MR: Yeah.

IL: There were several things coming together. One was that I needed to build my business, so I wanted to build my business, and I had to learn how to do that. Before, as a graphic designer, I was only doing stuff that was coming to me anyway. I showed my portfolio and didn't really think so much about my message. And then when I wanted to have my business more as an expression of—or I wanted to direct it in a certain direction, which is more drawing, more me, more creative, I studied more marketing.

And I read Donald Miller's "Building a StoryBrand." That had a big influence on me, and I thought, "This is it. He's right." I knew he is right, but still, I couldn't wrap my head around it for my own business. And then I heard—I don't know if it was—I think it was him who said, "If you can paint a picture of it, your message isn't clear enough." And that kind of flipped a switch, and I thought, "I can paint that picture. I need to draw it. I need to draw this process."

And so, that was the inspiration for this. I call it brand storyboarding and I draw the customer's journey. So if you have a website—if you're my client, it's not about it's not about you, it's about your clients. I draw how your clients feel before and after they have worked with you, and you're the guide. And then I added, with time, my own spin on it and other stuff. Yeah, that's how this started. Then I tried it out with some people and it worked, and I refined it.

MR: That's always good.

IL: And then it happened that I found many, or some people don't know yet what they want to sell theoretically. In a StoryBrand, they already have a working product, but some people who come to me, don't know that yet. And then I do a superpower diagram, which is also visual, which is overlapping circles. So I have several things, but this brand storyboarding, which is the before, after, and the bridge in between, that's the core thing that I'm doing.

MR: Interesting. That's a really fascinating way to look at it because I think people do relate to stories and they think of themselves in a story, but not as the hero, but as the guide, right? That's the story, I guess process where you think about "Star Wars," right? Luke is the focus, but Yoda, or you know, Obi-Wan Kenobi, they're the guides that help Luke achieve, you know, his goal, right? And you're sort of casting people who you work with in the Yoda/Obi-Wan Kenobi role as guides, because then, you know, your customers are the Luke Skywalkers in a sense, right?

IL: Mm-hmm. Exactly. So it's a little bit meta and it really helps me to have a drawing of it, so I can always go back—I don't even know if I'm a visual thinker. It's very spatial for me, this process, that I know exactly what is happening where, and I can always go back to it. And when we figure out the messaging, then I can go back to the guy with a problem to the hero and say, "Does this guy, we really want to hear that in this situation here."

And another interesting question is how did he end up in this problem? That's a philosophical problem. Whose fault is it? And what is wrong with society that this could happen? So that is helping to get deeper into the whole story.

MR: Right. Kind of like a root cause.

IL: Yeah.

MR: Looking at the root cause.

IL: Which is also a tip often a good headline for the website.

MR: And so, you've been doing this for a while. How do your clients react? I know how I reacted. I enjoyed the process and it's now a map that I can use. I can pull it up, and I was telling you before we started that my thought is in the fall when I start thinking about what I'm gonna do next, but that's gonna be one of the maps that I bring up and sort of think about what does it tell me? So How do your other clients like it and how are they using it?

IL: One said, "It's part therapy, part magic, and all clarity." That was very nice.

MR: Yeah.

IL: And how do they use it? Some put it on their website, but that's not the point of it. It's more about having the clarity. Then the people who come to me who are creative and who maybe also draw themselves, I always encourage them to do their own thing. I have a template, and so, they can use it and then should do their own drawings and their own illustrations. But yeah, some people put it on their websites or on their LinkedIn headers, so.

MR: I would think a good place to put it would be on the wall.

IL: Yeah, yeah.

MR: That I was hanging on the wall right here, so I can look at it every day and remember like, what am I doing here? Like, what's my purpose?

IL: I don't know if they're doing that. Maybe they say it, but then I don't see it.

MR: Right. You can't verify. Yeah.

IL: I see it if they have it in their LinkedIn header, but what is also happening, as a graphic element, and I'm now the graphic designer's talking, there's a lot of stuff on it. So to use it on the website can be tricky because it's a lot of words and a lot of drawings. What I'm doing when I have been doing websites based on the storyboards, is I extracted several elements from it and made separate drawings from it.

MR: Almost like a series of drawings that are connected. Sort of serves the same purpose, but it's not all in a single canvas, in that sense.

IL: Yeah. And it tends to look to look better. Yeah.

MR: I suppose the beauty of that too is you could take a piece of the story and zoom into detail on that piece of the story, right? If you do it in a series, you could start from the beginning and end up at the end and have detail on each piece, I suppose.

IL: Yeah. And what you can use it for—I have done that now with somebody. We do your storyboard, and then I asked her, "And now tell me your story." And she looked at the storyboard and told me the whole thing, and she could just go through it, and then you have a structure for it. It's a picture to find the right words and to find the right structure so you always know where you are in your brand story when you talk about it.

That's the basic thing. People tend to get, or I also, tend to get confused if we just talk about it without structure, and it's so clear on the left is the bad stuff on the right is the good stuff. And don't mix it up and don't talk about both in one sentence unless it's under LinkedIn headline.

MR: I could see that also being a really helpful, almost like a filtering mechanism where it says, "Okay, I've been offered—" Let's say you're running a company, your own company, or you're doing a thing and someone comes to you and says, Hey, I'd like you to do this thing for me. And you could think about it and say, "Well, where does this fit on my map?"

And if it fits in the old stuff, then it's real easy to say, "No, it doesn't fit what I do." If it goes over in the area where I'm heading to, then it's something you should consider taking, right? Or maybe the answer then is to come back to them and say, "Well, you're asking me to do this thing, which is what I used to do, but I found it wasn't effective for whatever reason. How would you feel about doing this new thing, which I'm doing, and let's fit it into there where I found that much more effective."

So it could also be an opportunity to, I not only identify but then convert someone or guide someone to a more effective thing that you're doing now. So someone wouldn't even have thought to come to you and ask for that thing. Then it gives you this opportunity to shift them to the new—

IL: That's true. That's true. I don't actually do illustrations anymore because it doesn't fit into my own plan. But what I'm doing sometimes is working on the messaging and the illustrations together with my clients. So we get into a Zoom call, and then I draw while we're talking and I do the illustrations. If they're happy with them, how they look like messy and sketchy, then everything is fine. If not, then—but so far they have been happy.

MR: So here's a question. You've done it with these on Zoom, so, you know, the assumption is somebody remote or not in the same physical place. Have you done this with someone in person where you're both on the same board?

IL: Yes.

MR: And then what is that experience like? Do you have them drawing as well and putting information on the same thing? Or do you act as sort of the scribe for them? How does that work? And it must depend on the person, I'm sure.

IL: Yeah. I haven't done so many of those, but I have. Now, the latest was on my holiday in Italy. I did one with my host. And I am acting as a scribe because I'm so used to it, although she's also drawing. But it would distract from the flow if I say, "And now you—" Then I would have to tell her where to draw and stuff. I didn't do that.

MR: That makes sense.

IL: If you're used to drawing digital, it can be tricky to go back to analog, and then you want to move something.

MR: No "Undo," yeah.

IL: No "Undo," and then I use scissors and scotch tape to put some somewhere else. And that also works. I mean, it's, it's messier.

MR: So the last question around this is you do it for individuals. Have you ever done it for a team of people where it's many people giving you feedback? Does that get confusing? Is it possible that's something that you've ever done?

IL: I've done it. It's possible. It's best done if everybody has their own—I did it in during the pandemic when everybody was at several places. And then there was no problem, I could hear everybody. It was a nonprofit organization about their website, and they needed to get onto the same page, although they were in different locations, and I was drawing the story. We were doing that together. It works well.

What I did last week was talking with a group of people in one place where they all were looking at the big screen, and then it can be problematic because I need to hear what they're saying. So they need to talk into the microphone. It's mostly technical problems, but otherwise, I love working with several people because it makes so much sense to bring them together and have them agree on whatever it is.

I did one session with management assistants at a conference celebrating their superpowers. So they were telling me what it is, they're doing, and then I was drawing the situations. That was just a celebratory thing, which was nice. And the last one that I did was about how to solve problems, and they came with ideas and I visualized them. I love working with teams.

MR: Cool. That's good.

IL: But mostly it's for—

MR: Individuals.

IL: Individuals right now.

MR: Interesting.

IL: It might change.

MR: So, I always ask this at this point, and that is, is there something exciting that you are getting ready to start working on now that you can talk about? Any new project or maybe a new direction or something?

IL: Not a new direction, but I have had these courses all the time, doing just as a, I wouldn't say hobby, but a little side thing, and my one-to-one work was the bulk of my business, which is still is, but now I am designing a—making it—because I have many courses by now, and it was getting too complicated, so now it's only one prize and one membership, and it's such a lovely group, and I decided to make a membership out of it instead of courses.

And that's something I'm excited about. We meet every Tuesday and such lovely people. I always look forward to it, and we draw together, we work on our messaging together, and yeah, that's a next thing that I'm working on.

MR: Kind of a diversification of, you know, the work that you're doing and doing something more. I know membership happen-

IL: I'm teaching my methodology there, the brand storyboarding, and all the visual—there's so many things. Visual frameworks is also very, very useful. Is what you're doing a pyramid, or is it a flywheel, or is it a a linear thing? Like my brand storyboarding? Is a A, B, C thing.

MR: Yeah.

IL: So I have been analyzing that, and there's something about finding your style which is also interesting. If you only can draw a stickman, how can you use them to convey your message? Like, for example, Tim Urban. You know him? "Wait But Why" who has these ugly drawings and is so popular and he is doing the wildest best job in communicating the stories. He's one of my heroes too.

MR: He's kind of leaning into his own, you know, limitations and making them work for him, right?

IL: Yes. Yes.

MR: I think that's what I love a lot about, when I see different sketch noters, at a certain point you can sort of identify, oh, that's a Diana Soriat. Oh, that's Nadine Rosa. Oh, that's Ben Crothers. Oh, that's, you know—they have a style that you can almost immediately identify just by looking at the work that they do, which is really interesting.

IL: Yeah. Yeah. And I was always convinced that I don't have a style. I thought I just don't draw well enough. But these shortcomings are the style—

MR: Yes.

IL: - in a way.

MR: Exactly. Exactly. They make your style you. That's for sure.

IL: Yeah. Yeah.

MR: So let's do a little shift now. I would love to hear about the tools that you use, and I think actually in many cases, I start with analog and then I go digital because the answer is pretty standard. But I think in your case, I'm going to go the opposite direction because—

IL: Oh, really?

MR: Yeah. You're so heavily focused on your digital work. I would love to hear the digital first and then talk about analog, like markers.

IL: Okay.

MR: We'll just do that for fun.

IL: Yeah. Okay. My analog favorite tool is Concepts on the iPad.

MR: Mh-mm.

IL: Yeah. Because it's vector if anybody knows what that is. You can move stuff around, you can scale it, you don't have to worry about resolution, and you have an infinite canvas. And that is just perfect for my work. I find it perfect for simple illustrations. If you work more painterly then Procreate is better, but otherwise, I'm very much in love with Concepts and it's getting better and better. So that's what I love using on the iPad.

Otherwise, I'm often using Adobe Illustrator, although I don't love it because I've used it for so many years. I have an old Cintiq that I bought long before the iPad was. A Wacom Cintiq that I can draw on. But I wouldn't buy that anymore. But now that I have it, I'm still using it.

MR: Just use it. And for those who don't know, a Cintiq is basically, it's like a tablet screen that you can draw on. It comes with a high-resolution pen with a tip, and I think an eraser. I had one of these a long time ago, it's got huge bulky cables that you plug into your machine. It's not portable at all. It's really meant for illustrators at a desk.

Pre-iPad, the Cintiq was amazing. Everybody wanted one. And once the iPad came out, I think that probably killed their business or much of it, unless you had a specific need for a desktop tool like that, which some do.

IL: But it still works. I bought it maybe 15 years ago or something like that.

MR: Still going.

IL: And it's still working. I just had to get an adapter for this old DVI back.

MR: Oh, yeah.

IL: Yeah, very old. Very old.

MR: Interesting.

IL: But it still works.

MR: Oh, that's good. That's good. That's been a good investment then. Your system is pretty—I think that when you did my work, you did use the Cintiq and Illustrator. You have the way you process stuff.

IL: It's not portable. It's plugged in here. Everything is just working, and that's why I'm using it.

MR: Yeah. Exactly. Great. Are there any tools—

IL: So that was digital.

MR: Okay. Got it. So now let's switch over to analog. What do you use in your analog side?

IL: When it's just functional drawings, then I use Neuland pens and markers. I like best the Neuland flexible tip one. That is—oh, no, I don't have one here. Light blue and a flexible tip. And it's the fine—yes, exactly. This one. And for shading, I use art markers, Neuland. You have them there? No.

MR: Yep. I think so. Somewhere here. Yeah. I think they have the flex--they have almost like a brush nib.

IL: They have a brush nip. Yeah. My two favorite ones for that is the light gray. I think it's 102 shade and yellow. These are the two shade. So that's functional graphic facilitation drawings, and I don't use too many colors with it because it has to be fast and—

MR: Simplify. Yeah.

IL: Yeah. And for fun, I'm using also a black fine liner and ink tins, pencils, and a water brush.

MR: So you use some—

IL: I love watercolor.

MR: Do you have like a watercolor book that you use for that? Or are you doing it out in nature?

IL: Yeah, I do it everywhere.

MR: Okay, you have like a little—

IL: I don't even use—sometimes also A3 bigger ones.

MR: Oh, really? Okay.

IL: Yeah. And I don't use—I mean, I love watercolor paper, but I don't use it that much because when I then photograph it, then I have the paper structures, yeah, the texture so I'm using smooth paper.

MR: Okay. Well, if you know what you're doing, then that works well.

IL: Yeah. So I love that. Watercolor is my favorite look for drawing. It's fun. There's this messiness and I like it if it's expressive.

MR: Have you ever used—

IL: That's—what?

MR: That's your tool set. I was wondering, have you ever used Procreate or Paper with their watercolor tools? And how do you feel about those?

IL:
I'm using Procreate for another thing that I'm doing that is very fun. And that is projecting drawings on houses.

MR: Uh-huh.

IL: I'm doing that at city festivals and stuff. I got hired to do that. And so, people come by and I draw them, and they get sometimes very big projected onto a facade. I'm using Procreate for that because the presentation mode is working best with that. And I'm using some light pens there.

MR: Uh.

IL: Yeah. I found them. They are pre-installed called Light Pens and they have wonderful effects, so you don't have to do much. It looks just great.

MR: Oh, cool.

IL: And then I do portraits of people with some light effects around them.

MR: Ah, nice. Well, we'll have to see if you can send us some samples of this so we can put links in the show notes so people could see.

IL: Yeah, it's called Illuminations.dk.

MR: Ah, okay. Illuminations.

IL: Yeah. I sent you the link.

MR: Great. Great. Well, we'll definitely have links to everything we can get from Ingrid so you can take a look at her work and see the breadth of the things that she's up to.

IL: Yeah. I've had it for many years, so it's there.

MR: Some opportunity for inspiration, I think for someone to think, "Oh, I'd never thought about that. Maybe I could do that in my town."

IL: Yeah.

MR: That'd be fun.

IL: Mm-hmm.

MR: Well, let's shift to—this is the part where I like to have people talk about tips, and I like to have three tips that you would give someone. And I frame it as imagine someone's listening, they're individual thinking. Obviously, if they've made it this far into the podcast, they're somehow interested in visual thinking, but maybe they feel like they've hit a plateau, they need some inspiration. What would be three tips that you would give that person to encourage them or maybe change their perspective?

IL: Three things. Message first. Don't worry about how it looks to start with and just say something with your drawing. If there's something you want to say, then make a little drawing out of it. And it doesn't have to be grand at all. It doesn't have to look great. Just have it say something.

And that then works in two directions. When it doesn't quite say what you want, then you maybe develop your drawing, but it can also be that when you see it on paper, then your message maybe evolves from there. So it's not only about drawing, it's also about the storytelling. What is it exactly you want to say? And that's why it's so useful. Yeah.

MR: That's a good one. I like that.

IL: Otherwise tips. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Don't try to make art. Keep it simple in every way possible. Use only one color. I use black lines and one color. That always looks good. Or shading, and one color. And that way it doesn't go wrong. And especially if it's light and bright colors, that's a secret.

MR: Good contrast with black, I think, right? yeah.

IL: Yes.

MR: I tend to lean toward Aqua. Aqua is my favorite contrast color. A bright aqua with black. Anyway.

IL: I remember I copied that from you back then.

MR: Good. Good, good, good.

IL: Yeah. But I switched. When I'm only using one color, I always use, nowadays yellow.

MR: Yellow, yeah.

IL: And if I have two colors, I use gray and red, but that's also just—

MR: The gray, I suspect would probably be your shadowing and such, right? Little shadows.

IL: Yes.

MR: Yeah. What about a third tip? What would be the last one for you?

IL: Experiment. Maybe try watercolor and several apps and use it in your every day. I think that's something—and either in work or to communicate that. That's it. Use it to communicate. That is the whole difference between making art. If you're just drawing to make something pretty, you don't have a direction. And if you use it to—for example, make a drawing for somebody and say, "Thank you." And just a little smiley and write a bubble—

MR: Just a little something. Yeah.

IL: Yes. That gives a different dimension on it. That makes it easier to draw. And also you get nice feedback and nobody will say, "Oh, that looks terrible," because you have a nice message with it.

MR: I have a little something here that my friend William, he wrote a book called "The Conquering Creative," and he sent me—it's so bright you can't see it. Yeah.

IL: Yeah. No, no, no, no. I see it. Yeah, yeah.

MR: It's like a little note. It's a little note with a drawing. Really nice for them. And I've set it up on my table here. I look at it every day just because it's such a nice sentiment.

IL: Yeah, exactly.

MR: Well, this is really great. It's been so fun to have you talk about your process. Talk about where's the best place to go see your work. Is there one place or a couple places that would be a good place to start?

IL: I have a website called lilbranding.com. And from there I link to my new membership site called visualminds.org. where there are all the courses. I do a webinar every month, a free webinar idea. It used to be called Little Branding Cafe, but maybe I go away and call it now Visual Brand Visual Minds Idea Workshop, where people come with their ideas and challenges, and then I draw it. It's like what we did, a mini session, for free. So I do that.

MR: Like a challenge for you, right? Yeah.

IL: Yeah. And then it's usually very nice because people also come with advice and with their ideas in the chat. So that's a fun thing, and I try to do that every month. On my website, there's a button to sign up for that.

MR: So lillbranding would probably be the best place to start, and everything, link from there. Yeah.

IL: Mm-hmm. lilbranding.com.

MR: That sounds great.

**IL:**And right now I'm mostly on LinkedIn. I try to post regularly there. Now with big idea sketch cast, I'm also starting on YouTube, and maybe I will also go back to Instagram at some point, but I didn't have so much time.

MR: Yeah. You have to choose your battles, right? You have to pick the places where it makes most sense.

IL: Yeah.

MR: I would think that your focus on LinkedIn makes sense in the context of the work you do, to me.

IL: On business. Yeah.

MR: Cool. Well, thanks so much for being on the show, and thanks for all the work you're doing. I'm so thankful for you being in the community and sharing your work and being a teacher. And the kind opportunity you gave me to kind of work through my things and talk with me through the stuff that I was thinking about at the time, it was just so generous.

I really love your attitude and your welcoming nature, and you're so calm and relaxed. It's just nice to have another person like you in the community. Thank you for all you do.

IL: Well, thank you for inviting me and for doing the session with me. It's an honor because you were one of the first people who—where I learned sketchnoting. I took a workshop a few years ago, and yeah. So thank you for that.

MR: You're so welcome. Well, everyone, this is another episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast wrapped up. So until the next episode, we'll talk to y'all soon.

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Sketchnote Lab is Mike Rohde’s space designed to bridge the gap between sketchnote theory and practice. You don’t need to be an artist to think visually. Join Mike and learn to use sketchnotes to clarify your thinking, solve problems, and move forward. Learn more about Sketchnote Lab.

Mike is the author of The Sketchnote Handbook and The Sketchnote Workbook, bestselling books that teach regular people how to start sketchnoting and build a regular sketchnoting practice.

He founded the Sketchnote Army and hosts the Sketchnote Podcast, where he interviews visual thinkers to understand what makes them tick.

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In this episode, Dr. Bryan Vartabedian shares how he is creating a child-centered, family-friendly healthcare experience using visuals, to achieve better healthcare outcomes and a positive experience for all involved.

Dr. Vartabedian is Chief Pediatrics Officer at Texas Children's Hospital Austin, he is also a full-time faculty member at Baylor College of Medicinea and is professor of the practice at Rice University as cofounder of the Medical Futures Lab.

Dr. Vartabedian is the author of Looking Out for Number Two – A Slightly Irreverent Guide to Poo, Gas and Other Things That Come Out of Your Baby (HarperWave, 2017) and Colic Solved – The Essential Guide to Infant Reflux and the Care of Your Screaming, Difficult-to-Soothe Baby (Ballantine/Random House, 2007).

Sponsored by Concepts

This episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Concepts, a perfect tool for sketchnoting, available on iOS, Windows, and Android.

Concepts’ infinite canvas lets you sketchnote in a defined area while still enjoying infinite space around it — to write a quick note, scribble an idea, or keep pre-drawn visual elements handy for when you need them most.

The infinite canvas lets you stretch out and work without worrying if you’ll run out of space. When combined with powerful vector drawing that offers high-resolution output and complete brush and stroke control — you have a tool that’s perfect for sketchnoting.

Concepts is a powerful, flexible tool that’s ideal for sketchnoting.

SEARCH “Concepts” in your favorite app store to give it a try.

Running Order

• Intro
• Welcome
• Who is Dr. Vartabedian
• Origin Story
• Dr. Vartabedian's current work
• Sponsor: Concepts
• Tips
• Tools
• Where to find Dr. Vartabedian
• Outro

Links

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• Dr. Vartabedian on LinkedIn
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• The Sketchnote Workbook

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

• EXPO Low-Odor Markers
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Tips

1. Be Intentional.
2. Look for a role model.
3. Keep it simple, keep it clean.

Credits

• Producer: Alec Pulianas
• Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer
• Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro

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Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike here, and I'm here with my friend Dr. Bryan Vartabedian. Dr. Vartabedian, it's so good to have you on the show.

Bryan Vartabedian: It's great to be here. I think we've been planning this for a number of years, and it never really happened, right?

MR: Yes. Yeah, well, we're both pretty busy people.

BV: Right.

MR: You being a physician and leadership certainly, you know, demands your time for very important things. Probably more important than Sketchnote podcasts many times. But, you know, sooner or later we figured we'd catch you, and it's worked out. So I'm really happy to have you here.

BV: Great to be here.

MR: So, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

BV: By training. I'm a pediatric gastroenterologist. Spent most of my career as a full-time clinician. Over the past couple of years, I've gotten into medical leadership and I helped Texas Children's here in Houston build a couple of their community hospitals, and they recruited me to open our new Austin flagship hospital in Northwest Austin. So I'm merging into medical leadership and it's been kind of fun, a little different.

MR: Cool. And I know that Austin is growing leaps and bounds, so I imagine the demand in Austin for those services has got to be pretty significant, I would imagine.

BV: Yeah.

MR: That's good.

BV: Yeah, big tech explosion going on there. And so, a lot of demand for pediatric services and so we're also offering women's services there too. So high risk kinds of women's services.

MR: wow.

BV: It's a beautiful hospital up in Cedar Park in Northwest Austin, if anyone listening wants to know.

MR: I don't know that I've been in that region, but I've been to some other regions around Austin so I'll have to look on a map when we're all done. So you've been doing that. I'm really curious now, like — so we talked a little bit, I warned you that we're gonna do, they call it the superhero origin story. Like, how did you get to the place where you are. We know where you're now, but how did you get here?

And more importantly, for this audience, how did visual thinking using your whiteboard to explain very complex topics to patients is what I remember we talked about in my book 10 years ago. How did you end up integrating that into your practice? 'Cause it doesn't seem like that's something — I mean, you know, the big joke is "Doctor's handwriting are impossible to read," and it sounds like your handwriting is quite legible. So how did you end up in that place? I'd love to hear that story and—

BV: Mike, it's a good question because I think I have been using large whiteboards in my exam rooms, I guess now for over 20 years. And it started with these little whiteboards, these little tiny whiteboards that they used to have in exam rooms that would sort of tell the nurses — you've seen these in like hospital rooms?

MR: Yeah, yeah.

BV: The nurse's name, like who the assistant is and what time the lunch trays are coming in or whatever. And so I used to try to — I found myself sort of sketching pictures on these little tiny boards. And it was sort of unsatisfying 'cause I was so constrained.

And maybe it was around Y2K, I had the manager invest in some larger boards and larger dry erase boards, which really expanded my ability to kind of develop a kind of an intentional use of graphics in the exam room with families.

And I just sort of fell into it. And the real tipping point, you know, around the time smartphones were kind of new, and I noticed mothers would hold their phones up and take pictures of what I had drawn.

And it was kind of at that moment, and the remarks that I got from families about how images, and even just bullet lists and arrows and things were so instrumental in helping them understand what was going on with their child. As you can understand, you know, physiology — you know, anatomy can be tricky to describe. A gallstone in a gallbladder.

MR: Yeah.

BV: Or a poop back up in the colon. When you make a picture of that, it really, really is a lot easier for someone to understand. Even beyond pictures, you know, even just bullet lists, a bullet list with arrows or two bullet lists with an arrow going between the two.

Something as simple as that for a young mother with an eight-week-old child who's exhausted, if you try to explain some of this stuff without any supporting media to help them even remember what the five things in the list are, it's impossible. So I don't even know how people practice medicine without this kind of visual.

MR: I think back to like when I've had x-rays done, like you could show me the x-ray and you could explain to me how it works, but it still doesn't make sense to me because I'm not practiced in understanding how to interpret that.

So you almost really need, like, what you're talking about. And, you know, I'm looking at the Sketchnote Workbook sample that we have here. You're talking about a gastroparesis likely—

BV: Gastroparesis, yeah.

MR: — you were sort of drawing this symbol, and we'll put a link to this in the show notes so you can see what I'm talking about. You almost need — so there's like the situation and there's a conceptual component to it where you're explaining the concept of what's happening, why it's happening, and how we're going to address it in this simple way. Because even showing pictures like X-rays are not gonna be helpful to, again, a mother who's tired and has this eight-week-old who's crying because they hurt, you know?

BV: Yeah, absolutely. And you know what's so interesting is that we — are you in Wisconsin?

MR: Yes. Yeah. You remembered. Yeah.

BV: Yeah. So we use the biggest EHR program I think in the world called Epic, Colorado, Wisconsin.

MR: Yeah.

BV: Big Wisconsin company. And, you know, I think our hospital paid 15 million to implement it. And it has some amazing abilities, but something very, very interesting, and it's funny, has happened, I'll go through a 30-minute consult with a child who's not growing or whatever, and I'll make a note, make my impression docs. Have a thing called the impression, which is what we think is going on. And that's often we refer to when we go back in the notes, what was I thinking back then?

But I've had parents, I've gone through the chart. You know, a patient comes back two months later, I look at my note and my note maybe isn't that great? Then the mom pulls out her phone and shows me the sketch note that I did on the board. And within seven seconds I can see like everything that we discussed without even, — you know, more than seven seconds, I can just tell. So it's so interesting that a visual can be a better way to document kind of what I was thinking, what I was doing even more than, you know, a hundred million dollars software package.

MR: Yeah. I've had this theory that it's something to do with the mapping or the use of space and the mapping ability of a visual. So you're not only working with words, but you're always putting them in context to each other. So there's more implied and even explicit relationships that you can draw but because it's using the space where typing and text gets crunched into this text, even a list, right. Like it's got its limitations.

So it'd be interesting to see, you know, does Epic allow you to upload your pictures? That might be an interesting way to solve that problem, right? Well, while the mother is taking a picture, you are too, right?

BV: So it does, it absolutely does. And I've yet to pull the trigger on that. There is a very interesting thing that's come up, which is, what about liability? When I write on a whiteboard, does that become part of subject to what's called legal discovery. Let's say I made a mistake with a diagnosis, could a mama pull out my whiteboard picture and use that in a court of law?

And probably, honestly, so it's probably the good if our hospital attorneys are listening, they're like, "You need to get those in the chart immediately." But I think it's always bothered me a little bit that I do these images and they're honestly very powerful, but I think they do probably carry — I haven't gotten in trouble yet, but I do think they can and should be part of the medical record.

MR: Yeah.

BV: You know, you were talking about, I don't know, giving context maybe to what we're discussing. One of the things that happens when I have these whiteboards and once I launch into a discussion with a family, these visuals become the center of the discussion, and it becomes really powerful with a family that doesn't speak English.

If I have a migrant family that speaks Spanish, maybe not super educated, and, you know, I draw a simple picture of a stomach or a colon or a liver with red hash marks to mean inflammation, it's almost universal.

And we gather around the board —I've even had patients participate in the sketch noting to sort of add things that are missing. And especially, it's really powerful with kids who are probably pre-teen and older who can really kind of add to it or correct what I've put up in terms of symptoms and that sort of thing.

But the point being that it kind of becomes this center, and even when I have a translator, the translators know me and they go to the board and they're pointing. And so, it just all kind of works, you know.

MR: There's some collaborative nature to that. I know in the work that I do, when we collaborate on boards together, it's much richer than if it's just me preaching to the other people. I invite people to come up to the board and it becomes much more valuable because then everybody's really adding to it and adding dimension, because you can't know or see everything, right?

You can't feel what the patient's feeling. So you have to rely on their ability to describe to you, and maybe they don't even think about it until they start writing, and that might reveal something they couldn't verbalize, right?

BV: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the past 10, 15 years we've been seeing this rise of participatory medicine where patients are more empowered with what — you start with the web and all that. It used to be the doctor was a priest and the priesthood and all that sort of thing. Now people are more —- there's more participatory.

And there's also, there's a movement called shared decision-making in medicine where patients participate in deciding on the plan in a collaborative way. And when we put four or five options listed one through five on the right side of the board, which is where I always put them, we can negotiate that a little bit. And it just lends to weighing things when you can see them written down.

MR: I would imagine too that the idea of a collaborative to whatever degree with the patient would also mean their buy-in to actually, so if there's a part that you do and then there's a part they have to do.

Medications, physical therapy, I don't know, variety of things that they are responsible for, that if they feel like they've had a hand in making that choice, they're gonna be more likely to actually fulfill their part of it, which means a better outcome, right?

BV: Yep. There's some evidence to support that, but I can just tell you I see that firsthand and yeah, for sure, once they're involved in it, they definitely are more invested for sure.

MR: Yeah, I know I am. I can only speak for me, I guess, but that's pretty cool.

BV: It's been a fun journey and we've had interest from — the docs of the Mayo Clinic have called me and it's like, "How do you do this?" And I think we even kicked around maybe a decade ago. I thought I should make like a white paper to teach doctors how to do this, and I never did it.

But something that's sort of akin to sketch notes for clinicians, you know because I think I do have a methodical way that I do it, a way that I use the geography of the board to optimize the space and, you know, what do I use bullets for? Where do I put the plan? And so on and so forth.

MR: Almost like a language.

BV: Yeah, but I thought of formalizing it, which I haven't yet, but I probably should.

MR: I have some potential inspiration. My friend and colleague, Rob Dimeo is a physicist. He started using it in his practice as a physicist and found it really valuable, even though he had to modify the way he did it. He wrote a paper that basically explains how he uses sketch notes in a scientific setting.

It might be a really interesting reference to start from and see how he structured it, and then maybe produce something along the same lines could be interesting. So we'll put that in the show notes too, and I'll make sure you get that.

BV: I don't just use visual thinking in the exam room, you know, in the spirit of Austin Kleon, who's sort of a cartoonist here in Austin, Texas, I keep a journal and I do a lot of my thinking and kind of visual thinking, not as beautiful as you do. But when I'm sorting through ideas, I use a lot of the sketch notes elements to sort of help me understand how I'm thinking about things from basic, you know, brainstorming to mind mapping to everything.

MR: That's really great to hear that's used privately as well in your thinking.

BV: It's maybe that's how I started doing it in the exam room too because this is kind of — and you said this just a moment ago. I don't know what I think until I write it down sometimes. I can't tell all of an idea, but it's like, until I put it into some sort of construct. There's also, you know, different media stimulate me to be creative in different ways. For example, I do a lot of writing and I type I use an app called Ulysses. It's kind of like writing—

MR: Yeah, I use that too.

BV: — app. But there are times when I'm stuck and if I take to a white sheet of paper with your sketch notes elements or just let myself go free things come out that would never come out on a keyboard.

MR: Yeah. I use the same tool and I run into the same challenges when I do workshops. Sometimes I just need to take a notebook and go to the cafe and get coffee and dump on the page, and they're not beautiful, but I get so much information then what I do is I'll take that more mapped visualization, then I'll come back and then I can write again. It sort of opens up the, detail that I got stuck on when I'm trying to type. My typing fingers don't work as effectively as my visualization fingers, I guess.

BV: I see.

MR: If that makes sense. Yeah. How did you end up — so when I look at the work that you do, it seems like you got quite good handle on visualization. Were you trained in any way? Did you just naturally do this? Did you draw when you were a little kid? Where did these basic skills come from?

BV: I did a lot of art when I was very young. So it's interesting you should say that. I never thought about it, but I did. And honestly, with what I do on the whiteboard, and I have other images too, the elements of what I do are pretty simple.

MR: Yes.

BV: And almost like what you outlined, it's got — and this is the reason why I think anyone can do this. Any doc can do this. And in a minute, I'll get into what some docs do and what they do wrong when they try to do this, but like writing, I think maybe in the book there's a picture of an esophagus and a stomach, and the esophagus is two lines going down. The greater curvature of the stomach is a big curve, and the lesser curvature is a little curve, and anyone can do that.

Red hash marks are a inflammation universal sign. And a little round circle is an ulcer. And, you know, so I'm kind of a minimalist in terms of what I do on the whiteboard. I try to use basic elements. I try not to overdo it. I try to write it with the understanding that the mama's gonna take a picture of it, and I want it to be clean enough and legible enough so that when she goes home to dad over dinner, she can point and she can do the teaching.

MR: Yeah.

BV: One of the mistakes I've seen is some of my colleagues start getting very you know, hyper graphic and hyperkinetic and very, very busy, which can be kind of natural for some people, but the end result can kind of be hampered, I think, on some level. So I try to keep it intentionally on the clean, maybe in the way that you would do a sketch note at a meeting.

MR: Right. Doing something clean and simple is actually harder than doing it messy because you don't have to really think, when I say this thing what is it conveying? Is it necessary? Those kind of questions you have to ask. I guess the other thing about leaving it open and clean is if you're doing this collaborative work, I'm looking at the sample here, you've got some stuff drawn in black, and then you've got a a movement shape in green. It looks like it's moving out of the stomach. And then you have Prevacid is one of the choices versus Bentyl.

BV: Oh, yeah, yeah.

MR: Indicate that Prevacid in that context that 15 milligrams is better, and you use a red marker to sort of circle that.

BV: Right.

MR: So you've got this language that it's really simple, but you're using this language to annotate. And if you pack that full of stuff, not gonna have any room to really do that annotation and still have it clean and understandable. You would think.

BV: Yeah. And I try not to overdo the colors either. I tend to stick to two or three typically because it's the colors aren't that important but it can add an element that's helpful. It's funny, Mike, I sometimes tell my colleagues about this, and they say, "Oh, I do that, and I do it on the butcher paper, on the exam room table."

You've seen the doc sketch with the pen on the paper, it's kind of a primitive kind of sketch noting, but my problem with that is it's not intentional. It's not intended to create a product at the end for the family. It tends to be, you know, scratched and scribbly. It's very hard to read.

I think it's better than nothing maybe, but again, I think of the whiteboard, or even if you don't have a whiteboard, you can take a large oversized notebook and do that. If you're a doc listening, you can use a large oversize notebook with a Sharpie or a nice one-millimeter gel pen and get a good result.

MR: Something that could be photographed. I could imagine some physicians might like to carry that book around with them from room to room. Maybe they don't wanna be leaving it on a board or erasing, that maybe carrying it's better for them. That could be—

BV: I carried a whiteboard around with me in the hospital for a while, believe it or not. Yeah, it was sort of a trademark. But it became difficult because you'd forget it half the time, so.

MR: Yeah. I know there's some startups that have happened. I don't know where they're at now, but there were these books, they were whiteboard inside, but you would fold it up and had a strap like a Moleskine notebook. You could get them in different sizes, like quite big. So you could literally carry it around, had a little clip for the marker so you could pop it open and do like a whiteboard drawing on the spot, which was kind of a cool idea.

BV: You know, I've been tempted to use Procreate or something to sort of do these visuals on a pad, and then share digitally with a family. I just never quite get into that because I like the size and the grandeur of a large 5 ft whiteboard and the — you know what I'm saying?

MR: Yeah. I think probably there's something about the whiteboard and the simple tools that makes it more approachable if you do wanna have family involvement. Drawing on your iPad or drawing on your notepad might feel like they're invading, whereas a whiteboard feels more neutral or something.

BV: Yep.

MR: And it's more common. One of the things I discovered when I started teaching Sketchnoting is I got fancy notebooks and pens and all this stuff, and I found out that actually, it was really intimidating for students to work with these really fancy tools.

So now, when I do workshops, I just have them order a ream of paper and some flair pens and we're good. It sort of drops the level of the tool to the point that it almost is forgettable. You leave behind the paper or the pen and like, I'll just get another one. It's so simple. So I imagine that's the same thing.

BV: And Kleon jokes — he's a cartoonist, again, I'll bring him up, but he's always joking, people email him and ask him what pen he uses, you know, as if, if they bought the same pen, they'd be just as talented. It drives him crazy because that's not the point, you know. Everyone's got their own favorite gel pen or the whatever.

MR: You have to adapt it to your needs, right? That's part of the game. That's really interesting. So we sort of are stumbling into tools. So maybe we should just go there. Before we go there, I'd love to hear, is there something current that you're doing? Obviously, you sound like you've moved to a new location. Are you thinking about how you might use visualization in this new position? Or maybe start sharing these concepts with physicians there something new that you're doing that you might wanna talk about?

BV: Yeah. Of course, the first order of business is to get whiteboards in our new clinics in Austin. So I've got that rolling. I have done workshops for my faculty locally here through the years and they love that. And as I suggested, people — they kind of do this on their own, but they've never done it with that intentionality of using it to create a product.

So I do wanna pull it to Austin with me. I need to create some collateral material that teach people how to do this on the web kind of like you've done with workshops. And so, I would love to do that, but we're building this $700 million hospital and I gotta hire 200 doctors and—

MR: Little time-constrained, Bryan.

BV: Yeah, time-constrained. Time constrained. But my reputation precedes me 'cause everyone asks like, "You're gonna have the whiteboards?" And I'm like, "Oh yeah. Oh yeah."

MR: Maybe we should cook up some kind of a weekend workshop where we'll record it with you and I'll be your host.

BV: That'd be fun.

MR: And you could get your whiteboard out and show us your practice and we'll record it, and then you can share it with whoever wants to learn your techniques. That'd be fun.

BV: You know what's so interesting, Mike, is that since, you know, one of the great things about the internet, not like the internet's new or something, but there emerged this population of physician artists, and there are — I can, you know, point you to a bunch of illustrators and cartoonists who are, I mean, real professional cartoonists who are physicians who obviously with the emergence of the web, they became discoverable. Right before the web, no one, you know, how do you—

MR: How would you know? Yeah.

BV: How would you know there's a guide like sketching and so there's some real talent out there and what's amazing, we think of docs as sort of these narrow people, but there's a whole population of docs doing very interesting things with illustration and with graphics and cartoons. And so, it is kind of cool to sort of follow these people and see what they do.

MR: And you are part of that community, in your own way, doing it in a different way.

BV: Yeah, it is. What I do is very practical. You know, I'm doing it for a purpose and for an endpoint as a — well, I guess they are too, but you know, it's very different.

MR: Their purpose is different, right?

BV: Yes.

MR: It might be more like medical illustration, which I'm aware of what it's explaining through medical illustration, which is a kind of a different, you know, practice, but you do need that skill to understand what something really is. If you misrepresent that, that could be pretty dangerous.

Well, you know it sounds like your tools are pretty simple. I'm guessing it's whiteboards, and do you have specific markers that you prefer to use? Is there a certain color, certain brand, any of that kind of thing that you could share?

BV: We use EXPO low odor. The odors of some of the whiteboards can be pretty strong, and for kids with reactive airway disease and other airway problems, it can be an issue. So we try to keep use the low odor. In my personal work, I have a thing for fountain pens, and so I use a nice heavy-grade notebook with wide nib pens. And so, I enjoy doing that. They require a little maintenance. Beyond that, I do a one-millimeter Signo Uniball, which is my favorite gel.

MR: Nice broad tip. I like the one-millimeters as well. Kind of juicy. I say juicy, I like it juicy, so.

BV: Yeah. Kind of slippery and all that sort of thing.

MR: Yeah, exactly.

BV: And I'll even practice on a notebook. Sometimes I'll be stuck in an exam room trying to figure out how do I express a concept of, you know, gallbladder motility maybe, and I'll just take out a sheet in my notebook and just start scribbling and come up with some real simple representations. And that's how I come up with what I use.

MR: That's how you build sort of your library at the visual library that you use, right?

BV: Yeah. I use probably 10 or 20 of the same kind of images suited to what's going on with the kid, and, you know, you mix and match them, but yeah.

MR: That's a very simple tool set. And, you know, I neglected to ask this. So how do the kids react when they see this? Does that change your relationship with them? Do they feel more like they can enter the discussion when they see this kind of work?

BV: Yeah, certainly for the teenagers, they definitely participate sort of on that intellectual level. What's so interesting is with a four-year-old who may not be engaged in the conversation that I'm having with the mama, when I go to the board, they light up and they see the colors.

Oftentimes, I'll give them a marker and let them go to the lower part of the board and goof off and make — I've had kids try to copy what I'm doing, so it's kind of fun and cute. But yeah, they do.

Kids are very drawn to pictures. And so, one of the funny things I'll do if I have a reluctant three-year-old, it works great with three-year-olds, who doesn't want to be examined, I'll have mom pull up their shirt and I'll say, "That whiteboard so that I can draw a picture of your belly button."

So I look at their belly button like I'm studying it, and they'll make sort of a swirly figure on the board, and they just go nuts and they love it. And you get immediate buy-in. 'cause they see the thing and they look at their belly button and they say, "Oh, that's my belly button."

MR: That could be a good trick for other visual thinkers who need to get the attention of little kids.

BV: Right. So it's kind of fun. I may use it in a lot of different elements, so.

MR: So this is a point in the podcast where we typically will do tips. I like to frame it that imagine someone's listening, they're visual thinking, whatever that means to them, and maybe they've hit a plateau or they just need a little inspiration. What would be three things you might encourage someone to do to help them break out of that rut or just to have a little inspiration?

BV: Yeah. You know, I think that we talked about docs writing on butcher paper. You know, I might challenge people to sort of take it up a notch. Obviously, putting up a whiteboard as sort of a little bit of a challenge for a lot of people in clinics and it's wall space and that sort of thing.

So again, a large pad can do the trick and maybe take that step to try to be more intentional with the educational material you're using. And you gotta kind of just jump in and try. So I would say, you know, be intentional. That maybe be one tip.

The second tip might be look for a role model. I mean, you can look at the pictures that were in sketch notes, and I think I've got some online. I need an Instagram page, is what I need. But, you know, you can look up medical sketch notes, some of my blog posts I put on there. I just get a role model and see how people do it and what they do. And that's another thing to kind of get you unstuck. You wanted three, right?

MR: If you got 'em three would be great.

BV: So yeah, keep it simple. Keep it simple, keep it clean. I think that I'm a minimalist and I think families, again, you want to think about what you're creating for families when they go away and have fun with it. I mean, to me, I've had more fun in medicine doing this than anything else. You know, it's been a little bit of a side gig for me, and it's also great for families and makes it more enjoyable for me.

MR: That's fun. And it serves the purpose and it communicates.

BV: Yeah.

MR: And in the best case scenarios, it integrates the patients with you which means better outcomes, which everybody's driving for, right?

BV: Absolutely. Absolutely. Maybe that's the golden ring, is to try to connect whiteboards with disease outcomes, which if I had the right study design and the right person helping me coordinate it, I think we could do it. But so that might be a great project to aspire to.

MR: That's the next thing after you get this Austin clinic all set up and rolling.

BV: Yeah. And come down and visit. We'll give a tour.

MR: Yeah. Maybe I can do a little teaching. I can teach some basics.

BV: Yeah. We could do a live podcast from one of the exam rooms.

MR: There we go. That sounds good. I will take you up on that. Austin's one of my favorite cities, so wouldn't be hard to convince me to come. Probably in the springtime though.

BV: We'll get some barbecue. We'll get some barbecue.

MR: Probably in the springtime.

BV: Yeah.

MR: Well, Bryan, this has been really great to have you on the show. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and sort of the way you approach things. Of course, we're gonna find a variety of things. I've got some things up here I can share in the show notes, but I would love to hear where are the places that you hang out most. Do you have social media that you hang out? It looks like 33 charts.com is your site and your blog. Are there any other places we should go to?

BV: So I have a newsletter at 33 charts.substack.com, so it's the 33charts.substack.

MR: Great.

BV: I write a lot about — not a lot on visual thinking, which I should do, but a lot on technology and medicine and change and humans and how humans use technology. But you can find me there, 33 charts. I occasionally post there. People can reach out to me. You can find my contact, I think on my—

MR: On that site. Yeah. On the site or on the substack shoe. Great. Well, thanks for making time.

BV: Awesome. It's been great.

MR: Yeah. This is a lot of fun.

BV: It's great finally meeting you. Yeah.

MR: Yeah, same here. And I wish you the best in your next venture, and for everyone listening, it's another episode of the Sketchnote Army podcast in the Can. So, until next time, we'll talk to you soon.

BV: Take care.

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