Small Efforts - with Sean Sun and Andrew Askins

What if the smartest business a software founder can start is one AI can’t replace?

“I can’t believe I never thought about renting totes, because that would have saved so much money and time and energy.”

In this episode of Small Effort (Season 4, Episode 17), Sean and Andrew map out a Las Vegas box rental business built on one simple rule: the convention center doesn’t permit cardboard. They cover how a plastic tote business can be cash-flow positive on one rental a month, why businesses pay more than residential movers, and why owning a business that feels AI-proof might be a smart move for founders who build software for a living.

Links:

• Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
• Andrew’s website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
• MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
• Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
• Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
• Defcon: https://defcon.org/
• osquery: https://osquery.io/
• Sean’s website: https://seanqsun.com/

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

How do you decide whether to go all-in on your SaaS or hedge your bets with side income?

"If you're not full-time on MetaMonster, no one is full-time on MetaMonster."

In this episode of Small Effort (Season 4, Episode 16), Sean and Andrew get into the career fork Andrew is actually standing at: stay all-in on MetaMonster or carve out two days a week for side income. They cover the 2-year growth model Andrew built with Claude, why part-time founders quietly stall, the box-rental business a Las Vegas regulation accidentally created, and why four months of burn is really a $20K bet on the business.

Links:

• Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
• Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
• MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
• Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/
• Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
• Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
• Margins: http://margins.so/
• Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/

What if the point of AI wasn't to make more, but to work less?

This is the thing everyone said AI should do that nobody's actually doing. All the capitalists want to use AI to make more money, not work less.

In this episode of Small Effort (Season 4, Episode 15), Sean and Andrew dig into the team that used AI to move to a four-day week instead of squeezing out more, and the WordCamp pivot it mirrors: Andrew walking away from SEO autopilot to build content you're actually proud to publish. They cover why platform risk still burns big companies, the four pillars of content that survive after the AI tricks stop working, and why "what stays stable" beats every AEO hack.

Links:

• Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
• Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
• MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
• Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/
• Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
• Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
• Margins: http://margins.so/
• Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/

Transcript:

00:00.95
Sean
Hello.

00:02.69
Andrew
Hello, my friends.

00:04.02
Sean
How you doing? How was WordCamp?

00:04.96
Andrew
Good. WordCamp was... Fucking awesome. um interesting like This is my first WordCamp ever. WordCamp is definitely in decline.

00:14.91
Sean
ah

00:17.37
Andrew
At least Recamp US is in decline.

00:17.52
Sean
Oh. uh-oh

00:19.76
Andrew
Done. ah

00:21.27
Sean
is there Is there other WordCamp? Is that like WordCamp Belgium?

00:23.90
Andrew
They're all over the world.

00:24.30
Sean
or

00:25.14
Andrew
There's like WordCamp Europe, my... uh my one of my new friends that i made at the conference is going to word camp manila next week Um... It's ah yeah, they have them all over the world. And I think they're.

00:38.38
Andrew
They're still bigger. They're actually now bigger overseas than they are in in the US. which is interesting

00:45.15
Sean
That's it.

00:45.09
Andrew
um we

00:46.87
Sean
Sense.

00:47.60
Andrew
Yeah.

00:47.49
Sean
Ish. Maybe.

00:48.39
Andrew
Yeah.

00:48.20
Sean
I don't know.

00:48.90
Andrew
issue. Um,

00:49.85
Sean
Yeah.

00:50.63
Andrew
I think. we're from the the cheesemade that i got from people who our repeat attendees is that WordCamp US has been in decline since something happened two years ago. What what might have happened two years ago? I can't remember.

01:06.94
Andrew
Amen. any Any big drama in the in the WordPress space? that you can remember?

01:13.39
Sean
No. I block that out.

01:15.00
Andrew
fifty

01:15.04
Sean
From my memory. Um, Yeah, there was a, you know, there's... For some reason, a lot of people who are on WordPress. Um, complaining about something.

01:25.31
Sean
And it brought us a lot of Webflow customers. so

01:27.59
Andrew
Hell yeah. Let's go.

01:29.99
Sean
Um, uh,

01:33.65
Sean
Yeah. i'm I'm kind of curious. like like The shockwave that must have been across. I didn't realize there were so many word camps. So I wonder if like...

01:45.34
Sean
What happens in all those WordCamps, all the same, like... throughout that entire year that feels

01:51.35
Andrew
no I know.

01:51.62
Sean
You know?

01:52.74
Andrew
um I mean, I got a little bit from my my friends who've been going for years. Okay.

01:57.64
Sean
ahha

01:58.98
Andrew
Uh, But. Yeah, like WordCamp US used to be like 2 ,000 to 2 ,500 people. They also they scheduled it in Phoenix in August this year, which I think. a lot of people were like i think that's part of the reason it's not doing well although At the same time, in the back of my head, I was like Black Hat and Def Conner in August every year and fuck tons of people go.

02:18.45
Andrew
Um.

02:19.80
Sean
Yeah.

02:20.06
Andrew
So I don't know that that really impacted it. But yeah, this year was like. I think. one of my friends saw the registered attendee list, and it was 900 people. down from like 2 ,500 a few years ago.

02:33.16
Sean
Oh shit. God damn.

02:34.28
Andrew
Yeah.

02:35.81
Sean
Um.

02:36.57
Andrew
Not a great sign.

02:37.93
Sean
for For those not in. the web space. Um, Um,

02:46.43
Andrew
He's...

02:46.39
Sean
The... Do you want to, I don't know.

02:48.63
Andrew
I got, I got.

02:48.83
Sean
You're the expert now, so.

02:50.72
Andrew
So I got, I'm not an expert, but. All right. So one of the... original co-creators co-founders of wordpress um I got.

03:01.61
Andrew
I got yelled at by a friend, not yelled at, but like I got chastised by a friend for calling him the founder of WordPress. Someone was like. More like the forker of WordPress. um

03:10.74
Sean
Hell yeah.

03:14.01
Andrew
Um, Uh, Matt. Mullenweg? Is that his name? um Uh... Anyway. WordPress mat. um a couple years ago went Like, got really... pissy at at a Word can.

03:30.22
Andrew
during a keynote. Um, at WP Engine, who's like one of the largest WordPress hosts. and a competitor so like it's all complicated because like WordPress is WordPress is...

03:45.18
Andrew
a free open source tool. that is owned by a nonprofit. um and the WordPress trademark is owned by a nonprofit. Matt also owns... automatic which is a for-profit business that offer that owns wordpress .com a for-profit WordPress hosting service um and a bunch of other WordPress tools including WooCommerce and Pressable and some others.

04:08.67
Andrew
Um, and Um, Automatic. has a like perpetual license from WordPress .org, the nonprofit, to use the WordPress trademark.

04:20.96
Andrew
Um, And a couple years ago, he got mad at WP Engine, who's one of their biggest competitors, um who basically built their entire reputation on...

04:32.11
Andrew
Hey, your product kind of sucks. We're going to do it better and charge more for it. And people loved them for years and years. Um, I think some people have started to leave WP Engine. I don't know.

04:43.08
Andrew
what the state of the things is right now. But like for years and years, people loved WP Engine because they were just like rock solid. Awesome support. And like they charged a premium for it.

04:53.56
Sean
And WP Engine also owns... um the custom field the advanced custom fields plugin All right.

05:00.36
Andrew
Yes, they own a couple of like very successful WordPress plugins as well. And that got all pissy that they were like, using WP in their name. um that they even though like everyone in the wordpress community uses wp in their name Um,

05:16.26
Andrew
They were using WP in their name, and he was like, you're not contributing enough to open source. You're not contributing enough to WordPress .org. and

05:24.72
Sean
Open source. Oh, so the name. What I what i call my wallet.

05:28.52
Andrew
Yes.

05:29.19
Sean...

Can AI actually write, or is it just remixing what humans already think?

A human has to be involved. Right now, robots can't go out and have their own experiences. That's not how LLMs work.

In this episode of Small Effort (Season 4, Episode 14), Sean and Andrew cut through the AI-writing hype and land on the uncomfortable truth: good writing is good thinking, and good thinking still comes from humans. They cover where AI writing genuinely helps, where it quietly fails, and why the "AI will replace writers" panic gets the whole thing backwards.

Links:

• Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
• Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
• MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
• Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/
• Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
• Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
• Margins: http://margins.so/
• Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Sean and Andrew stop by to chat about what happens when you build a client website live on a sales call 20 minutes into the presentation. We get into Andrew's cold outreach restart for MetaMonster, the report card angle they are testing with SEO agencies, and somehow end up debating whether Astro or Next.js is the right call for a SaaS marketing site.

Links:

• Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
• Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
• MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
• Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/
• Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
• Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
• Margins: http://margins.so/
• Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Transcript:
00:01.20
Sean
What's up?

00:01.85
Andrew
Three, two, Oh, shit. Sorry. ah Awkward.

00:05.68
Sean
All good.

00:06.14
Andrew
Embarrassing.

00:07.26
Sean
All good. Jesus. ah

00:12.34
Andrew
Dude, every day that goes by without Metamonster closing a new customer, i just get more and more insecure about my abilities to be a SaaS founder.

00:25.30
Sean
Is that like...

00:27.14
Sean
Like every day, like you have a sales call and they don't buy right away or like, I see.

00:31.78
Andrew
I'm not even like having sales calls is the problem. Yeah, I we we do actually like you know, we've been working on the product when I when I started like breaking it down.

00:43.58
Sean
Yeah.

00:44.04
Andrew
I'm like, okay, it makes sense. um It's not like that shocking, but I'm still just like, ah like, is there demand for this thing? Are we wasting our time? What's going on?

00:55.96
Andrew
ah um but

01:00.21
Andrew
Like, so what we're doing right now, I do think the product has gotten a lot better.

01:06.46
Sean
Yeah.

01:06.55
Andrew
It still, like, has rough edges, but it is, like, it is way better than it used to be.

01:06.56
Sean
OK.

01:15.31
Andrew
um And um I think it's, like, in a sellable place now. What we're doing right now um is we're trying to spin up cold outreach again and start doing cold outreach.

01:33.04
Andrew
um And i think we've gotten clearer on our ICP. I think we've gotten clearer on like the problem we're trying to solve. um And so hopefully clearer on like the kind of signals we can look for to find good fit customers.

01:52.44
Andrew
um and so and'm like cautiously optimistic about this round of outreach that like and then jade's also almost officially on board so like i will have her to work with and to like help hold me accountable and i think we make a good team bouncing ideas off of each other and just like pushing building momentum together yeah um they

02:04.33
Sean
Nice.

02:13.65
Sean
Yeah, wait, didn't last time when we spoke, didn't Jade have like 25 demos lined up though or something like that?

02:23.19
Andrew
They haven't really been converting. um She's only done, i think she's done eight or so, and one may turn into a customer.

02:34.04
Andrew
um But she also hasn't really been pitching and because they're it's largely just like friends of hers, and so she didn't want to come in pitching too hard.

02:38.21
Sean
Yeah.

02:42.84
Andrew
It was more like more approaching them from a feedback standpoint.

02:43.16
Sean
Right, right. but Yeah, I meant like how is how's the feedback going?

02:49.49
Andrew
Feedback has been good, I think. i think But it's it's again, it's that like kind of mom test. it's the kind of It's a lot of feedback that kind of fails the mom test where it's like it's like people like the tool, but they're not adopting the tool.

03:01.93
Sean
Hmm.

03:07.44
Andrew
um And I think there's like a million reasons that can be. so like one of the one of the simple things that Jade's starting to do is um when people tell her like hey i'm interested in using this she's going to start scheduling a follow-up meeting to be like great why don't you use it for two weeks and then we'll talk again in two weeks and like create some accountability create a little bit of social pressure um and then in that second call i think we can more think she'll feel more comfortable asking for a sale

03:36.05
Sean
Right. Right.

03:44.02
Sean
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense.

03:45.17
Andrew
Yeah, because like at that point, they've shown interest.

03:45.69
Sean
Yeah.

03:47.29
Andrew
And it's like, OK, now it's time to ask for a sale.

03:47.81
Sean
Right.

03:50.23
Andrew
um

03:50.31
Sean
Right. Right. I mean, at that point, they've like actually, if they've actually used it and found it useful, and if they haven't, it's also useful to just know.

03:57.68
Andrew
Figure out why. Try to figure out why.

03:58.76
Sean
Yeah.

03:59.50
Andrew
Yeah.

04:00.44
Sean
Yeah,

04:00.47
Andrew
um And then we're trying to, like, it's like, OK, we also need to prove we can get demos outside of her network. And so let's...

04:12.30
Andrew
but scale up cold outreach, get that going again. We're doing it manually. When I say scale it up, I just mean, i basically just mean turn it on. I mean, start doing it.

04:22.26
Sean
yeah yeah

04:22.96
Andrew
um We're not like worried about scale. We're trying to do it very manually, very personably do it. My friend also challenged me to do not just like email or LinkedIn, but cold call people.

04:39.08
Sean
Oh, cool.

04:40.31
Andrew
Which, which is terrifying, which probably means I should try it.

04:45.20
Sean
ah Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I have a cold call video video to send you. like

04:49.72
Andrew
Okay. Send it to me.

04:50.52
Sean
you know there's a lot of scammy like this is how you cold call people and whatever i forget his name he's now with like a cold calling sas product but like he like live records his cold cold calls about like sas apps or like trucking whatever and like you you hear the guys go like no you or like whatever um like he's using it a demo the platform but like

04:50.76
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

04:54.92
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

05:01.25
Andrew
Mm-hmm.

05:15.12
Sean
It's probably one of the better, like repeatable sales motion type things that he follows. And it's, yeah, I want to say the app is called Glen Coco, but I don't remember if I'm just making Uh,

05:29.70
Andrew
Isn't Glen Coco like some pop culture reference?

05:33.96
Sean
sure. Uh, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. Oh yeah. Glenn Coco for, for you, Glenn Coco, you go Glenn Coco. All right. Uh, uh, Mean Girls.

05:43.98
Andrew
What's that from? Mean Girls. Okay, that's right.

05:47.04
Sean
Um, yeah, it is, it is, it is, it is from, it's yeah, it's Glenn Coco.

05:47.58
Andrew
That's right. That's right.

05:53.72
Sean
Um,

05:54.35
Andrew
Well, he named his app after a Mean Girls reference.

05:56.98
Sean
I guess so. I don't know if if it's his app or if he's just, it probabl...

Andrew is back from two weeks of Spanish immersion in Puebla, and the conversation picks up right where it always does. We get into MetaMonster's 100-demo sprint with their new co-founder, why AI keeps producing bad content for founders (and what Sean shipped to fix it), and somehow end up deep in a conversation about outcome-based agency pricing and why it is a finance nightmare in practice.

Links:

• Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
• Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
• MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
• Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/
• Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
• Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
• Margins: http://margins.so/
• Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Transcript:
00:00.41
Sean
Welcome back to Mexico City.

00:02.26
Andrew
What a

00:06.90
Sean
And let's get

00:07.11
Andrew
up? I still can't remember how, I still don't know how to say, can never remember how to say like, good to see you. I think it's like, mucho gusto verte, or like, con gusto.

00:20.02
Andrew
I think con gusto is like the the simplest way to say it, but... um

00:24.79
Sean
con gusto my friend um me amigo um

00:30.58
Andrew
Asking Claude, how do I say nice to see you in Mexico?

00:37.71
Andrew
I've been using Claude a bunch for, did i have I talked about this in a past episode?

00:40.96
Sean
yeah yeah yeah but no it's it's it's good it's like um

00:42.08
Andrew
Okay, my bad.

00:46.01
Andrew
Que bueno verte, me da gusto verte. Que gusto verte, que gusto verte is the most natural way. Literally, what a pleasure to see you. Que gusto verte.

00:58.77
Sean
I feel like that's not a thing people say. I feel like.

01:02.84
Andrew
I don't know how often how often people say it yeah

01:08.67
Sean
Yeah. Interesting. um how was How was your trip?

01:14.97
Andrew
It was awesome. um Just going from using Spanish maybe anywhere from half an hour to like two or three hours a day to using Spanish from 9 nine am until like five every day and then sometimes for another couple hours at night.

01:34.68
Andrew
depending on what plans I had with friends and stuff, um was definitely like much needed. Like I felt my vocabulary improving. i felt myself building some confidence, speaking Spanish, getting a little bit more comfortable.

01:50.14
Andrew
um Also underscored how much I still don't know and like how far I am from where I actually want to be, which is like kind confusing. good and frustrating at the same time.

02:03.32
Andrew
um But overall, really fun and also just nice to see a new part of Mexico. Like, Puebla is really beautiful. um It's a smaller city, a little bit more chill.

02:16.06
Andrew
um but has a really beautiful historic center with porticos that reminded me of like the porticos in Bologna in Italy. um And really good food.

02:29.66
Andrew
um I ate something and like fucked up my stomach for like a week. So that was a bummer, but also just part of being a gringo living in Mexico. um So it comes with the territory.

02:44.76
Sean
You were going for, I want to say it was two weeks, but it feels like it's been a very long time since we've talked.

02:47.10
Andrew
Just two weeks.

02:50.35
Sean
yeah, I miss you as well.

02:50.68
Andrew
Oh, I miss you too. Nah, it was just two weeks. Yeah, but super fun.

02:58.52
Sean
Good. Good, good, good. Yeah. That was a good picture from your group.

03:03.93
Andrew
Oh, of the of the class.

03:05.53
Sean
Yeah, yeah. That's good.

03:06.56
Andrew
Yeah, the school does a really good job of like, so you take classes from nine to one every day, and then you have lunch with the other students. um And you're strongly encouraged to speak only in Spanish while you're at the school.

03:21.82
Andrew
um So you're you're speaking to other students who are at different levels, but speaking in Spanish.

03:21.96
Sean
Nice.

03:28.48
Andrew
And then in the afternoons, Monday through Wednesday, you're paired one-on-one with a guide who's just a local. um And you walk around Puebla and go visit museums and tour different parts of the city with your guide. um ah The second Monday I was there, i got two of the other students and their guides to come with me to a board game store and we just played board games and talked in Spanish and it was super fun.

03:57.64
Andrew
Muy lindo, very cute.

03:59.72
Sean
Nice.

03:59.77
Andrew
um And, ah but yeah, so you get like a lot of one-on-one time with your guide. And then on Thursday, you do like a bigger expedition with the group to a city, you know, a small town or city nearby to Puebla. Yeah.

04:15.04
Andrew
And then, ah yeah, Friday afternoons you get off.

04:15.40
Sean
Nice.

04:18.78
Andrew
So,

04:19.82
Sean
It's like a full immersion type of thing. I like it.

04:22.43
Andrew
yeah, exactly.

04:23.14
Sean
Yeah. Cool.

04:24.44
Andrew
um Yeah, super fun.

04:25.43
Sean
You feel like you are drastically better at speaking the language now?

04:31.52
Andrew
No, I would not say drastically better. um I would say...

04:36.90
Andrew
marginally better. Like definitely, like i like I said, like definitely improved my vocab and my confidence, but like still two weeks just isn't enough to like for a drastic change.

04:46.47
Sean
Right, right.

04:47.76
Andrew
I, um yeah, i I need, I wish I could have spent

04:49.21
Sean
Gotcha.

04:55.55
Andrew
you know, two months there, because I think that would have been the kind of time I need to, like, really take a step forward. um Although I found this funny thing. i've I've spent some time on the language learning subreddit over the last, like, six months or whatever.

05:11.77
Andrew
And I found this funny joke where like every level thinks they're six months away from being fluent. Like every level of speaker is like, yeah, with like six more months of study, I'll be fluent.

05:21.25
Sean
Yeah.

05:23.68
Andrew
And it's like, you also just realize the more you learn, like, and Fluent is not easy to define and is kind of a shifting goalpost. um There's like true native speaker fluency. And then there's like, you know, understanding scientific terms. And um so like, you know, I think my goal is just conversational fluency, like be able to meet people who speak with a slightly different accent and not panic and like ah be able to like hang out in a crowd of like, you know, locals and like carry a conversation without being super stressed or watch a movie in Spanish and understand it without subtitles.

06:12.37
Sean
Cool.

06:15.19
Sean
Cool.

06:19.13
Sean
My brain's going into, like I forget what it's called, but there's like, a I don't know this is like i don't know if this is for like all languages, but like there's something like from what I understand, but Japanese, there's like an N1 or N2.

06:31.96
Andrew...

Andrew and Sean dig into Clawdgate, the growing developer complaints that Anthropic has been quietly throttling Claude's default thinking power after locking in enterprise deals. They also get into Sean's Salvo orchestration system, why waterfall specs do not work even with AI, and why scope creep is the silent killer hiding inside every AI coding workflow.

Links:

• Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
• Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
• MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
• Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/
• Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
• Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
• Margins: http://margins.so/
• Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Transcript:

00:00.76
Sean
What is up? My phone is gigantic.

00:02.84
Andrew
I want to throw Claude out of the window.

00:06.04
Sean
Why? What's going on? How dare you speak about my boy, Claude?

00:13.07
Andrew
Have you seen all the chatter online? Like there, I don't know if it's like just my feed or what, but I'm seeing a bunch of people complaining about Claude getting worse.

00:15.63
Sean
Yeah.

00:23.62
Andrew
Like, uh, and like the, the hypothesis I've seen is that, that, um,

00:23.98
Sean
Totally.

00:30.65
Andrew
is that Anthropic has been kind of throttling down Claude's default thinking power, or like like basically how much time and resources it spends thinking to save money.

00:45.99
Andrew
like they The theory is that they like used the masses to get people excited and build hype for Claude so they could sell enterprise deals. And now that they've got the enterprise deals, they're like throttling down how good Claude is for the masses by default.

01:03.27
Andrew
but But I think you can still like adjust the settings to get it back to where it was. i haven't really tried to tinker with it.

01:10.37
Sean
You gotta make an ultra think, man. You gotta turn on ultra think.

01:15.65
Andrew
Wait, is that a thing? Is that a setting, UltraThink? Or is this...

01:21.16
Sean
If you type in ultra think, something will happen. But I think it's just called slash effort max now, not ultra think.

01:26.29
Andrew
yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:27.67
Andrew
yeah

01:28.95
Sean
maybe ultra think is still a thing though I'm not super sure I know that all of Facebook uses ultra think do you see that Facebook's and internally has a competition of like how like they're all token maxing because there's a leaderboard of how many tokens you're burning and one guy's burnt like

01:44.88
Andrew
Is this why people are like making fun of, I've seen a bunch of people talking about how stupid it is to like reward people for like maximizing tokens.

01:52.34
Sean
yeah

01:53.92
Andrew
Is this where this is coming from?

01:55.41
Sean
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%. 100% it is. Yeah. But have you turned on your Claude buddy? Do you have your Claude buddy yet?

02:05.24
Andrew
So no, is this, is this like a default cloud thing or is it something you have to install?

02:08.36
Sean
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, Claude code, just type in slash buddy. You got like a random buddy. I got a common turtle. his name is His name is Flukish, but I like to call him fuckish.

02:23.08
Sean
he' He's kind of an asshole. Like, it tells you, like, a personality rating, and it's, like, everything else is not helpful. Like, ability to debug, like, zero. Ability to whatever, zero. Snarky, 95. Yeah.

02:36.12
Andrew
So sounds like you, they they cloned you.

02:37.69
Sean
yeah I know.

02:39.68
Andrew
they somehow just interpreted you.

02:42.32
Sean
I'm just a common turtle, man.

02:43.62
Sean
Hmm.

02:44.22
Andrew
and So I use i exclusively use Claude inside of Conductor. And so I've never actually like looking directly at the Claude metal. Like I'm not and the Claude code interface.

02:55.56
Andrew
I'm always seeing it inside of just the sort of conductor wrapping.

02:58.95
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

03:02.35
Andrew
Austin was just showing me a version, like an yet another

03:07.92
Sean
Yeah.

03:08.88
Andrew
uh one of these things it's called superset which is apparently like conductor but you're more you're getting more of the direct cloud code experience which i don't know if i need or want

03:13.18
Sean
Oh, I saw that. Yeah, yeah.

03:23.47
Sean
Yeah.

03:25.69
Andrew
But yeah, what i have also i have not tinkered with my like default fault Clawed settings at all.

03:25.81
Sean
Yeah.

03:35.42
Andrew
like i I haven't done the EffortMax thing yet. I haven't messed around with my ClawedMD file. I've just been like just been rolling with with what I get out of the box. Austin also raves about a set of skills called superpowers that I heard Ian Lanceman talking about some recently too.

03:56.24
Sean
Have you seen people talk about like impeccable? Okay.

03:59.16
Andrew
Oh, is this the is this kind of like the UI?

03:59.36
Sean
U-I-S-H.

04:02.80
Andrew
Well, I still don't, yeah, so no one knows what UiASH is going to actually be, but it seems like similar vibes.

04:03.00
Sean
Yeah. yeah

04:10.84
Sean
Yeah, someone... i saw a post yesterday about someone talking about how, like, a before and after they got to use UISH.

04:19.21
Andrew
Oh, sick. Yeah, I guess maybe they've started rolling out some invites, but it's still pretty small.

04:20.21
Sean
Yeah, yeah.

04:24.92
Sean
Yeah, it just looks like it knows how to use Tailwind.

04:29.41
Andrew
It's, yeah. I'm curious how they're going to charge for it, how they're going to charge for UISH, because if it is just a set of skills, it seems like that's going to be a hard thing to charge an ongoing subscription for, because like once people have the skills and

04:30.51
Sean
Yeah.

04:33.07
Sean
Yeah.

04:46.68
Andrew
Unless the skills the skill files, unless you never actually get access to the skill files, it's like all remote.

04:53.42
Sean
That's terrible. I would not use, I would not use that. That's like, I would just, yeah.

04:57.49
Andrew
Yeah, it seems like it would be really slow.

05:00.10
Sean
oh So I don't know how you would stop it from like just me going or just me going rebuild yourself, you know?

05:02.79
Andrew
Downloading the files.

05:08.24
Andrew
Yeah.

05:08.53
Sean
Yeah. yeah

05:10.96
Andrew
i It seems like there's gonna be a piece beyond, because I've also heard them talking about it kind of like a tool, so I'm wondering if there's more to it than just skill files.

05:21.94
Sean
Maybe it's like, you know how like a lot of those like styled component libraries have like theme creators. I mean, you can download it. Maybe it's like you get access to that. You get to like theme tailwind and you download it as like a specialized skill just for you.

05:36.66
Andrew
Maybe.

Andrew ditched Cursor for Claude Max and the economics made it an easy call.

In this episode they get into the Meta Monster pivot toward content optimization, why Claude hallucinated an entire Wix API, and what the switch to Conductor actually looks like day to day.

Links:

• Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
• Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
• MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
• Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/
• Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
• Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
• Margins: http://margins.so/
• Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Transcript:

00:00.47
Sean
Cool. Thanks. What's up?

00:03.03
Andrew
Not much. I haven't seen you in like three fucking months.

00:06.58
Sean
Yeah.

00:06.74
Andrew
How are you?

00:08.06
Sean
ah I'm good. Q1 is finally over. RSA is finally over. So now it's time to worry about Black Hat.

00:15.45
Andrew
Jesus.

00:17.14
Sean
um But.

00:19.03
Andrew
Q1 being finally over means we're like even closer to the death day for Metamonster.

00:19.26
Sean
ah

00:25.67
Sean
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:27.03
Andrew
Have I told you this, that like Austin and I were like, if if it's not working by the middle of the summer, we're gonna, we need to like pull the plug.

00:34.90
Sean
You have. You have. yeah What would you do if you pulled the plug? Would you start a new thing, or can I finally hire you again?

00:43.25
Andrew
Dude, i I have, I don't know, is the short answer, but I have lots of thoughts. Like part of me wants to to buy a trad business, which is what I've been calling brick and mortar businesses lately.

00:53.78
Andrew
And every time I say it, it makes people cringe, which is why I continue to say it.

00:56.04
Sean
That's horrible. du't That's disgusting. Mexico City is changing you. i can't believe you'd say that.

01:02.13
Andrew
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

01:03.16
Sean
forpin

01:05.14
Andrew
No, that's just me having a stupid sense of humor. You can't blame Mexico City for that.

01:07.90
Sean
No, no, it's good.

01:09.10
Andrew
Mexico City way too beautiful a place to blame for that.

01:09.88
Sean
It's good. Speaking, speaking of trad related things, have you seen the documentary?

01:14.26
Andrew
Oh God, where is this going?

01:18.45
Sean
Have you been, ah have you been, ah did you watch the Manosphere documentary on Netflix with Louis Thoreau?

01:24.79
Andrew
No, but my little sister did and she was like, you have to watch it.

01:28.22
Sean
It's so good.

01:28.28
Andrew
And i I haven't watched it yet. Yeah.

01:30.15
Sean
It's so good. It's all Ben and I could talk about at RSA.

01:34.26
Andrew
Nice.

01:34.32
Sean
Sorry.

01:35.00
Andrew
Have you seen Project Hail Mary yet?

01:37.11
Sean
No, I hear it's good, but i don't know what it's about.

01:38.71
Andrew
I hear it's really good. Yeah. Oh, you didn't read the book?

01:42.21
Sean
No, I don't read.

01:43.86
Andrew
I forgot.

01:44.73
Sean
yeah i think I think if all books were in AI chat bubbles, I would read all of it, but they're not. so that's

01:52.77
Andrew
That's the lamest thing you've ever said to me. It's almost as bad as trad businesses.

01:59.32
Sean
it's It's probably worse.

02:02.68
Sean
um How you been?

02:03.89
Andrew
Dude, I've been good.

02:04.43
Sean
How's life?

02:06.32
Andrew
um We are working on a pivot for Metamonster. i am becoming, I'm embracing the fully AI-pilled by boy life.

02:10.74
Sean
OK.

02:18.71
Sean
OK.

02:18.81
Andrew
um i still love Mexico. Yeah.

02:23.66
Sean
Good.

02:26.68
Andrew
yeah

02:28.11
Sean
OK, can you tell me, can you just tell me what you're pivoting to before I like rip my hair out? Because I really need you to build some features at the moment.

02:35.48
Andrew
So it's I call it a pivot part somewhat facetiously. um

02:39.31
Sean
OK.

02:40.45
Andrew
we're We're not really pivoting, like the tool is still going to work the same way it does now, um but we're going deep on content optimization.

02:46.03
Sean
Cool.

02:51.03
Andrew
So we're building we're building a single page view where you can still update metadata, but we also do SERP analysis and content recommendations for you and help you auto apply them.

03:04.79
Andrew
um And so we're we're going to be adjusting our positioning to more directly take on ClearScope and Surfer. um

03:15.96
Sean
and air ops.

03:16.09
Andrew
So the Yeah, air ops a little bit. I think of air ops as a little bit different. I think of air ops more as content orchestration, um like generate content at scale, whereas we're more content optimization.

03:30.78
Andrew
So like take your existing content or like new pieces of content and help you optimize it. Yeah.

03:38.01
Sean
Sick.

03:39.39
Andrew
Yep.

03:40.43
Sean
Cool.

03:40.44
Andrew
um

03:41.18
Sean
is Is this like a like like an editor that I'm writing in? And then, OK, cool. And then you can publish the web flow.

03:49.05
Andrew
ah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

03:50.40
Sean
Oh, good, good, good, good.

03:50.74
Andrew
Totally, totally.

03:52.44
Sean
You should do it. You should do it so I can use it. i don't I don't care.

03:55.22
Andrew
Yeah.

03:56.00
Sean
No. What?

03:56.73
Andrew
So, the um I, did you see my LinkedIn post by chance? Dude, I spent like half of last week vibing with Claude on a Wix integration, and then I finally go to test it.

04:13.21
Andrew
it It shouldn't have taken me a a whole week to test it. I just got distracted by like three other things. um And I finally go to test it, and I'm like, huh, it's not working. Why isn't it working?

04:23.70
Andrew
And Claude goes, oh yeah, the Wix API I was using was purely speculative. Like, I just made it up. I was like, motherfucker Are you fucking kidding me? um And it turns out like Wix, like Squarespace does not support us updating SEO metadata for anything except blog posts. So I just scrapped the whole thing and was like, fuck this.

04:48.31
Andrew
um

04:49.72
Sean
Well, but you could do like cloud code browser use types of things to like manually.

04:55.80
Andrew
I could and I did and it took for fucking ever. It took like two hours to update 30 pages. It was painfully slow and eventually ran out of context.

05:04.43
Sean
Gotcha.

05:07.72
Sean
Gotcha.

05:07.77
Andrew
um

05:08.57
Sean
Damn.

05:08.92
Andrew
And I was just like, this is horrible. um So ah yeah, my hope is that like Wix and Squarespace wake the fuck up and realize what century they're living in and build a decent hal...

Links:

• Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
• Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
• MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
• Slackletter: https://slackletter.com/
• Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
• Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
• Margins: http://margins.so/
• Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Transcript:

00:00.85
Andrew
Dude, your notifications are non-fucking-stop.

00:04.50
Sean
Yeah, they are. I know. It's terrible.

00:08.08
Andrew
Before you muted it, it was just like, what's... Your Slack noise is like a click clack. It's like a... Okay.

00:13.94
Sean
Yeah, the knock, the Slack knock.

00:15.92
Andrew
did it did

00:16.09
Sean
Yeah.

00:16.75
Andrew
okay I don't ever have noises turned on for anything. It drives me crazy.

00:22.67
Sean
Yeah, I mean, don't know. You used to it, I guess. What are you going to and You know what notifications does drive crazy?

00:27.94
Andrew
Sicko.

00:32.16
Sean
Messages. Yeah,

00:34.98
Andrew
Messages, like iMessage or like Facebook Messenger or...

00:36.68
Sean
yeah, yeah. No, sorry.

00:40.30
Andrew
iMessage.

00:40.84
Sean
iMessage. Yeah, iMessage.

00:41.87
Andrew
Yeah, yeah.

00:42.99
Sean
Noises drive me insane. Slag is okay.

00:46.20
Andrew
It's kind of like a little like bubble burst, right? It's like a bubbly thing, sounding thing.

00:52.18
Sean
Oh, mine is a ding.

00:54.12
Andrew
No, maybe maybe the bubble is something else.

00:54.20
Sean
Mine is like a shark.

00:56.16
Andrew
I don't know.

00:56.88
Sean
The bubble is like when you send a message.

00:56.97
Andrew
some Somebody. Oh, maybe. Yeah.

01:00.56
Sean
Yeah. Yeah.

01:01.36
Andrew
Yeah. Dude, did you get any sleep last night? We were chatting at like 1.30 a.m.

01:09.48
Andrew
Secret pod.

01:13.37
Sean
Yeah. I still have like three hours. It's not that bad.

01:17.44
Andrew
Man, that's so much sleep. what You must be wide awake fucking alert.

01:21.96
Sean
yeah Well, I was going to ask you if you had any sleep last night, but you know.

01:33.12
Andrew
I actually didn't fall asleep until like 3, 4 a.m., something like that.

01:33.70
Sean
Yeah,

01:38.72
Andrew
I have a new favorite Dropout show. can't you You know Dropout, right? We've talked about Dropout.tv, best streaming service the internet.

01:44.46
Sean
yeah, yeah. Yeah, college humor.

01:49.32
Andrew
on the internet

01:52.82
Sean
Oh,

01:52.96
Andrew
uh they have a it's not a new show i've but i i was finally catching up uh what is it called the parlor room where it's like a they played board comedians played board games and you watch so it's like right up my fucking alley i'm cursing a lot today sorry

02:05.75
Sean
cool.

02:07.93
Sean
Nice. It's okay. It's because don't have any sleep. I get it.

02:13.93
Sean
Unlike me, who slept a lot.

02:18.89
Andrew
uh have you ever heard of blood on the clock tower

02:21.94
Sean
No, no, no,

02:22.83
Andrew
It's like a deception game, kind of like mafia kind of vibes, but more complicated and there's, it looks really fun. The thing that makes it, I think, complicated is like the players, the roles that players get can change every time.

02:37.96
Andrew
And you, there are multiple players who can have roles where they think they're one thing, but they're actually something else. They're getting, false information.

02:44.69
Sean
no.

02:46.28
Andrew
So you can be the marionette, which is like you're controlled by like the big bad. You can be a drunk. You can also like get poisoned or something. And then there's like so there's all this stuff where you're like trying to piece things together, but you have to also consider the fact that you might have incorrect information.

03:08.46
Andrew
like the stuff you think you know about yourself might be wrong. It's chaotic as hell.

03:12.93
Sean
that's pretty cool that's pretty yeah that's pretty cool interesting okay that's it every time i hear deception game and i hear like mafia i kind of roll my eyes and internally just because i can't like there's there's just so many you know there's just so many of this like but but i think i think that's a nice that's like a

03:14.95
Andrew
Super fun. Yeah.

03:25.54
Andrew
Sure.

03:29.61
Andrew
I know.

03:35.68
Sean
an Actually, interesting spin on it.

03:35.71
Andrew
yeah Some of them are a lot better than others.

03:37.95
Sean
Yeah.

03:37.98
Andrew
like kuup is pretty fun. Secret Hitler is pretty fun. Generally I don't love deception games though because I like i hate lying, I'm a terrible liar.

03:47.70
Andrew
But my strategy is usually just to be as chao like as chaotic and suspicious as hell even when I'm not the the like person so that that way if I do get the like big bad, everyone's just like Andrew's just being Andrew, he's just an idiot.

03:55.67
Sean
I see.

04:02.77
Andrew
like Ignore him.

04:03.10
Sean
Nice. Nice.

04:05.49
Andrew
i have to like access access because i know i'm going to access when i'm uh actually in trouble

04:13.25
Sean
it's like It's like the opposite of like just always pretending you're bad at lying. So everyone thinks always telling the truth.

04:22.08
Andrew
it's kind of the same thing it's kind of the same thing right yeah

04:22.31
Sean
Anyway. you have you yeah okay anyway do you have do have a favorite game?

04:29.48
Andrew
Uh, yes, but it's like kind of niche. I think my favorite board game is Everdell.

04:33.68
Sean
OK.

04:36.62
Sean
I've heard of that.

04:36.95
Andrew
it it's It's an engine builder where you're living in like kind of like a Redwall-esque world where you've got you're playing as little forest creatures and you're building your little forest like forest kingdom machine thing.

04:51.88
Andrew
And and and it's fun because it's like you can't be that cutthroat with the other players. You're kind of playing your own game and there's a little bit of like sabotage and stuff.

04:58.23
Sean
Mm.

05:01.71
Andrew
but For someone who's very competitive, and it you know my friends tend to get pissed off at me when we play like really cutthroat games, like Settlers or you know something.

05:11.80
Sean
Gotcha.

05:13.03
Andrew
And so it's nice because it keeps keeps everybody happier. Also a big fan of, oh, what's the haunted house on the hill? Betrayal at the house on the hill.

05:25.57
Andrew
So much fun. Campy, kitschy, good vibes.

05:31.24
Sean
Nice. The PvE one doesn't sound fun at all. Just saying. As as also as Everdell.

05:37.77
Andrew
The which one?

05:40.20
Sean
like you You just completely sold me again...

We found a cheat code for learning Spanish using Claude and Anki (without studying grammar). Plus, the Cult Brand marketing framework that turns customers into superfans.

In this episode, Andrew reveals why he is moving to Mexico City and going all in on his startup. Sean breaks down how he scaled his agency to 18 employees and the specific Positioning Strategy he uses to charge premium prices.

Links:

• Andrew’s Twitter: @AndrewAskins
• Andrew's website: https://www.andrewaskins.com/
• MetaMonster: https://metamonster.ai/
• Shipletter: https://shipletter.ai/
• Sean’s Twitter: @seanqsun
• Miscreants: http://miscreants.com/
• Margins: http://margins.so/
• Sean's website: https://seanqsun.com/

For more information about the podcast, check out https://www.smalleffortspod.com/.

Transcript:

00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,200
I've had several situations where I just like make stupid mistakes. I feel very envious of the

00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:10,800
ability to like, spend all your time and energy on like one thing, we kind of made a mistake that I

00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:15,200
think I've seen a lot of people make. Ever felt like you're stuck making the same mistakes or on

00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:20,480
the verge of something big but held back? Today we explore founder struggles, mistakes, burnout, and

00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:25,239
focusing on real growth. We'll discuss creating content for people, not algorithms, and staying

00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:29,640
grounded in what matters. I'm Andrew Askins, founder of meta monster, and I'm Sean's son

00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:34,000
founder of miscreants. Let's dive into the journey. Like I think a lot of founders like, identify that

8
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,559
by accident and build a product around that. I don't give it. AI thinks I'm stupid. AI already

9
00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,199
knows I'm stupid. You are selling a methodology where your solution is the only product that

10
00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,240
actually fits said methodology. Learning a language is a lot of work. Demand is a fluid

11
00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,600
substance. My biggest thing is like social anxiety of picking up and making mistakes. Every small

12
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:54,400
move is how we can.

13
00:00:59,970 --> 00:01:06,489
How's your Spanish going? Pretend I was in Spanish. Um.

14
00:01:07,050 --> 00:01:13,769
Not something smart. So menos lento is is muy, uh. Muy Modesto.

15
00:01:13,809 --> 00:01:20,729
Muy, muy Modesto. Um, I, uh, I have been texting a lot in Spanish lately, so, like, my

16
00:01:20,730 --> 00:01:27,449
reading and writing has been getting a lot better. Faster than my speaking and listening. Um,

17
00:01:27,449 --> 00:01:33,009
I still, I was just hanging out with a bunch of friends last night. Um, and to be fair, uh, four of

18
00:01:33,010 --> 00:01:39,650
my friends, um, were were ganging up on one of their boyfriends. And so it was,

19
00:01:39,809 --> 00:01:46,689
uh, there was a lot of very rapid Spanish, um, and a lot of, like, g. Longo slang flying around, so,

20
00:01:46,730 --> 00:01:51,089
like, not the easiest to understand, but I was just, like, I was just sitting back laughing, like, I

21
00:01:51,089 --> 00:01:55,929
don't understand any of this. Although, interestingly enough, understood everything at the

22
00:01:55,929 --> 00:02:02,830
same time. You know, like the universal language. It was pretty obvious what was happening. Nice.

23
00:02:03,550 --> 00:02:10,470
Also, I heard you have a new, uh, nickname in Mexico City. Yeah, we don't need to go into that.

24
00:02:10,470 --> 00:02:17,270
That's fine. I feel like. Yeah. Okay. All right. Fine. Am I? My friends, Rosa and Wyatt. Uh,

25
00:02:17,270 --> 00:02:23,710
Rosa's from here. Um. Uh, and, uh, she's dating my my good friend Wyatt. Um,

26
00:02:23,750 --> 00:02:30,629
and one night, I may have had a little too much fun, and, uh, they had to take care of me a bit,

27
00:02:30,630 --> 00:02:37,630
and I got got dubbed El Polito clause. Um, which means, uh, the little colored chick.

28
00:02:37,830 --> 00:02:44,589
Um, the the backstory is in Mexico City. Like, I don't know, 10 or 20 years

29
00:02:44,589 --> 00:02:49,550
ago. Uh, there used to be markets everywhere where you could get these little baby chicks that had

30
00:02:49,550 --> 00:02:55,710
been dyed like neon colors. And the dye was very bad for the chicks. And so, um, you would, like, buy

31
00:02:55,710 --> 00:03:01,319
them for your kid, and they would inevitably die within two weeks. Um, and so they were like, just

32
00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:08,240
very hard to keep alive. And so, Polito declares, is a, uh, is a joke you

33
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:14,720
make about someone when they can't take care of themselves, when they when they need, need help. You

34
00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:20,319
know, I don't think you told me. Did I not give you the context? No, that was way more morbid than I

35
00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:27,320
thought. I thought it was just like. Like it meant, like ugly duckling or like. I mean, it kind of does.

36
00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:33,640
It has a morbid start, but it basically just means, like, are you dumb little thing you need, like,

37
00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:40,839
we got you. It's okay. Um,

38
00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:48,159
sorry. I'm just. I'm trying to imagine I got it all in neon, baby chick. Oh.

39
00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:56,179
Um. Oh, that's. Did you find them? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're kind of like peeps, you know? they're

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like poop colored. Yeah, but, like living beings. Yeah. So very, very. Oh, wow. Okay. They

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got. All right. Next topic. Um. One thing I've been doing, though, that's been fun. Um,

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so to try to work on my Spanish, I there's this app that all the, like, language learning nerds use

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called Anki. Um, it's a spaced repetition flashcard app. So basically you practice words and then like

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when you get them right, it's depending on how easy or hard it was. It'll like space out how

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often it shows it to you. So like as you learn words you see them less often. The new words

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you're struggling with. You see them more often. Um, and so I've been wanting to use Anki for a really

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long time. Um, but like, their interface is atrocious. It's a great app. It's all open source,

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but it's like the most painful thing to enter stuff. And they have this, like, incredible

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community of, um, of like pe...