Before the mainstreaming of Ellen and the hit show Will and Grace, soaps did their best to bring tenderness to LGBTQ+ storylines. That’s the nature of the form: It gives room for anyone and everyone to be complex, fleshed out, loved and hated all at once.

From supporting roles to legacy characters to complex depictions in their full humanity, from respectability politics to sometimes making missteps, soaps have found ways to evolve their depictions of queer life.

Ryan Phillippe played a gay teen in the 1990s on One Life to Live. Eden Riegel played Bianca, Erica Kane’s gay daughter in the 2000s on All My Children.

Today, progress looks like a villain, according to Days of Our Lives actor Greg Rikaart.

“I came on as the ‘gay villain,’ if you will, and to me, that felt like the ultimate equality, in that I didn’t have to just say the right thing and follow the rules in order to be palatable to the audience,” he said. “And when I would get blowback from some people … I would just argue all those things: That that is further pushing the envelope open by saying, ‘Yeah, we can be multifaceted. We don’t all have to be good guys.’ ”

You can listen to this podcast episode by following “Making: Stories Without End” wherever you get your podcasts. Episodes drop every Tuesday for six weeks starting April 8.