Spatial Attraction

Send us Fan Mail

Redefining Work

In this episode of Spatial Attraction, Kursty Groves is in conversation with Jeremy Myerson about why the return-to-office debate refuses to settle.

Together, they explore the “halfway house” we’re living in now: work that feels more flexible and more unsettled at the same time.

Jeremy is Professor Emeritus at the Royal College of Art, founder of the Helen Hamlyn Centre for Design, and co-founder of WorkTech Academy.

They unpack:

• Why hybrid work can increase friction, anonymity, and the coordination load
• Jeremy’s “three waves” of office evolution (efficiency → social democratic → networked)
• The hidden costs of distributed work, including lost mentoring and tacit learning
• Why the office is still psychologically central, even when we work from anywhere
• Why we may be measuring the wrong things, and what it means to design for experience
• What becomes more valuable as AI accelerates visible output: judgement, trust, cohesion, and shared meaning

For companion notes and research links, visit the episode page:

https://kurstygroves.com/podcast/spatial-attraction-redefining-work-with-jeremy-myerson/

About Jeremy Myerson

Jeremy Myerson is a design writer and academic based in London.

He is Professor Emeritus at the Royal College of Art, founder of the Helen Hamlyn Centre for Design, and co-founder of WorkTech Academy.

His most recent book is Unworking: The Reinvention of the Modern Office (2022).

Support the show

Spatial Attraction is written, produced, and hosted by Kursty Groves.

Original music and sound production by Lee Golledge.

For episodes and updates, visit https://kurstygroves.com/podcast/ - and follow Spatial Attraction on LinkedIn and Instagram.

To suggest a theme or guest, email [email protected].

Send us Fan Mail

Spatial Attraction is a podcast about the spaces we work in, and the forces that shape how we think, interact, and perform.

In each episode, Kursty Groves explores the conditions people are working inside across physical, digital, social, cognitive, and temporal space - and what to notice, name, and redesign when those conditions are working against us.

Support the show

Spatial Attraction is written, produced, and hosted by Kursty Groves.

Original music and sound production by Lee Golledge.

For episodes and updates, visit https://kurstygroves.com/podcast/ - and follow Spatial Attraction on LinkedIn and Instagram.

To suggest a theme or guest, email [email protected].

Send us Fan Mail

Space for Trust
In this episode of Spatial Attraction, Kursty Groves is in conversation with Rachel Botsman about how trust has been reorganised over time, and what that means for the spaces we work inside now. Together, they explore how trust is shaped by the conditions people are working inside, and how uncertainty, discomfort and friction interact with visibility, proximity and format to subtly influence who is heard, believed, and relied upon.

For companion notes and research links, visit the episode page: https://kurstygroves.com/podcast/spatial-attraction-trust-spaces/

About Rachel Botsman

Rachel Botsman is a leading global expert on trust and the author of What’s Mine Is Yours, Who Can You Trust?, and How To Trust & Be Trusted. Her work explores how trust is formed, tested, and redesigned as society, technology, and institutions change.

She has advised and spoken to organisations including Salesforce, Goldman Sachs, Adobe, Gartner, and EY, and was the first Trust Fellow at Oxford University’s Saïd Business School.

Rachel has written for The New York Times, The Guardian, Wired, Financial Times, Time, and Fast Company.

Rethink with Rachel is Rachel’s thought-provoking newsletter on trust, leadership, and change, read by leaders, founders, and decision-makers worldwide.

Support the show

Spatial Attraction is written, produced, and hosted by Kursty Groves.

Original music and sound production by Lee Golledge.

For episodes and updates, visit https://kurstygroves.com/podcast/ - and follow Spatial Attraction on LinkedIn and Instagram.

To suggest a theme or guest, email [email protected].

Send us Fan Mail

What’s a better life? What’s a better office? Those two questions are inherently connected. Your workspace’s biggest challenge is to stay relevant, and it’s impossible to do so without obsessively making being in the physical workspace an incredible life experience. This is IKEA’s workspace development philosophy and in this episode, Momo Pavlovic shares how IKEA brings it to life through an infinitely iterative process. 

Developing an incredible workspace is work that is never finished. Tune in to discover how IKEA does it. 

Support the show

What we discussed
(00:24) Developing Ikea workspaces
(08:12) How the pandemic changed workspace planning 
(13:09) Workspaces vs. team behaviour: what’s the connection?
(16:39) Infinitely changing IKEA workspaces  
(18:04) Feeling forced to be in the office (BIG MISTAKE) 
(23:31)Creating a destination office  
(31:04) IKEA’s 3-part workspace plan 
(33:17) “Why do I have to go in 4x/week, when they come in 2x/week?”
(41:55) Momo’s question to you (about meetings)

3 things you can learn from how IKEA manages its workspaces: 

1. Ask the question “how do we make this a great experience?” rather than “how do we get more people in the office?”
2. Prepare your workspace to support the new behaviours you want your team to embody. But, before you can do that you must concretely understand what the new behaviors you need really are. 
3. It’s important for team members to not feel like they’re forced to be in the office. How many days people spend in the physical office should be a team mandate, not a rule enforced by executives. 

Links 

Momo Pavlovic is the Workplace Support Leader at Ingka Services which is the force behind IKEA’s holistic and in-demand workspaces. 

Connect with Momo Pavlovic: LinkedIn 

Connect with Kursty Groves: LinkedIn | Twitter | Ask a question or pitch an idea: [email protected] 

Support the show

Support the show

Spatial Attraction is written, produced, and hosted by Kursty Groves.

Original music and sound production by Lee Golledge.

For episodes and updates, visit https://kurstygroves.com/podcast/ - and follow Spatial Attraction on LinkedIn and Instagram.

To suggest a theme or guest, email [email protected].

Send us Fan Mail

What’s it like to design, build and operationalize a Workplace project during 2020 a Netflix office? What’s the workplace culture like? How does Netflix stay genuine?  Nasreen Potter from Netflix tells all about what it’s like to work there. 

She shares the Netflix workplace philosophy, how they justify their office space investments, how they engage employees with relevant communication and the secrets behind their vibrant work environment. 

Nasreen Potter is a Workplace Director at Netflix. Previously she was Workplace Director at LinkedIn and Regional Workplace Lead at Microsoft. 

“There isn't a limitless bucket of money available to everybody, especially in our line of work. And we need to be really fussy figuring out what is going to help move us forward and then fixing it.”

“If the space isn't working for the purpose that it was intended, right, then you are wasting your money anyway.”

Support the show

What we discussed 

(00:24) Diversity, equity, and inclusion at Netflix
(03:13) Pale, male, and stale: “this is not my tribe”
(07:40) How workplace feedback at LinkedIn is different
(09:39) Netflix workplace philosophy
(12:39) Netflix’s pandemic project
(18:24) Authentic DEI vs. faking it
(22:08)How to lead inclusively
(24:14) Tick box communication
(28:30) Why we need farewell parties
(29:35) First days back at Netflix
(32:32) What if we can’t afford to fix the office space? (solved)
(34:05) Secret behind Netflix’s buzzing office
(40:12) Measuring space usage
(41:15) Who does the Netflix CREWS team hire?

3 things to remember: 

1. Diversity and inclusion is not just a tickbox - thinking of ways that it permeates throughout every touchpoint and process is key to authentically living and valuing DE&I.
2. If your office space isn’t serving the purpose it is meant to serve and you are not working on fixing it for financial reasons, then you might be losing more money waiting to fix it. 
3. To have a buzzing workspace you first have to have a culture that allows and encourages a buzzing workspace. 

Links 

Connect with Nasreen Potter: LinkedIn

Connect with Kursty Groves: LinkedIn | Twitter | Ask a question or pitch an idea: [email protected] 

Support the show

Support the show

Spatial Attraction is written, produced, and hosted by Kursty Groves.

Original music and sound production by Lee Golledge.

For episodes and updates, visit https://kurstygroves.com/podcast/ - and follow Spatial Attraction on LinkedIn and Instagram.

To suggest a theme or guest, email [email protected].

Send us Fan Mail

What if you could have a ‘destination office’ rather than a bland office that people dread coming into? 
How do you create spaces at work that energize people? 
How do you make people look forward to their days in the office? 

It’s not just hitting KPIs that creates value at work. Connection, community, and collaboration create immeasurable value. Tom Kegode and Kursty discuss how to use office spaces to grow social capital and why social capital is a necessary form of productivity.

Tom Kegode is the Work:Lab Lead at Lloyd’s Banking Group where he is creating new imaginations and realities of work. He’s had a 13-year career at Lloyd’s so far.

Support the show

What we discussed:
(00:22) How did work at Lloyd Bank change over the years?

(09:09) Collaboration spaces are NOT enough 

(15:10) What’s hard to replicate virtually? 

(17:29) Transactional work vs. joyful work

(23:11) Having a floor dedicated to testing workspace configurations 

(30:33) Building critical mass for rich work experiences 

(33:32) The new way to feel belonging at work 

(41:11) Getting in touch with Tom Kegode 

4 things to remember: 

1. Collaboration is the byproduct of connection and community. Collaboration can happen anywhere as long as you have community and connection.  
2. Productivity isn’t just progressing on your KPI, forming social connections and increasing your social capital are their own forms of productivity. 
3. When work gets reduced to a transactional task, rather than a joyful and energetic experience it becomes easy to quit. 
4. It’s really important for everyone to feel like they’re part of something when they enter their office building. There has to be something meaningful and fulfilling they’re getting by being present there at the office. 

Links 

Connect with Tom Kegode: LinkedIn

Connect with Kursty Groves: LinkedIn | Twitter | Ask a question or pitch an idea: [email protected] 

Support the show

Support the show

Spatial Attraction is written, produced, and hosted by Kursty Groves.

Original music and sound production by Lee Golledge.

For episodes and updates, visit https://kurstygroves.com/podcast/ - and follow Spatial Attraction on LinkedIn and Instagram.

To suggest a theme or guest, email [email protected].

Send us Fan Mail

Resilience - why doesn’t it work? Most people get resilience wrong. 

In this episode, we’ll reframe what resilience really is and how to tap into it for yourself and your organization. Bruce Daisley and Kursty discuss the 3 pillars of resilience that people don’t usually take into account, the connection between childhood trauma and resilience, how your sense of identity can predict your well-being, and why many resilience training programs are ineffective.

Bruce Daisley is the author of Fortitude. He is a writer and podcaster. Previously, he was a VP at Twitter amongst other roles.

“What you find is that the more coherent someone's identity is, the story they tell themselves about themselves, the more able they are to carry themselves in the world.” - Bruce Daisley 

Support the show

Timestamps

(00:22) Episode Overview: Who is Bruce Daisley?

(02:49) How to always be writing 

(05:07) Why resilience training programs don’t work 

(10:06) Do you have to go through great pain to have great success?

(14:48) How bad was your childhood trauma?

(20:56) 3 pillars of resilience and fortitude 

(25:25) Building resilient organizations 

(30:49) Individual identity vs. collective identity 

(38:35)  What is Bruce Daisley working on now?

3 Key Takeaways: 

• There is a correlation between adverse childhood experiences and super achievement. This doesn’t mean you have to go through great pain to achieve great success. Your experiences don’t necessarily predetermine your life outcomes but some experiences may put you at greater risk of negative outcomes than others. 
• Identity is a key pillar of fortitude. The stronger your sense of identity, the more likely you are to have higher well-being.  Identity is how other people get access to us, it is how we belong to collective groups. Identity and community are two parts of the same piece. 
• There are 3 pillars of fortitude: control, identity, and community

Links 

Grab a copy of Fortitude: https://www.findfortitude.net/ 

Eat, Sleep, Work, Repeat Podcast: https://eatsleepworkrepeat.com/ 

Connect with Bruce Daisley: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brucedaisley/ 

Adverse Childhood Experience quiz: https://developingchild.harvard.edu/media-coverage/take-the-ace-quiz-and-learn-what-it-does-and-doesnt-mean 

Connect with Kursty Groves: LinkedIn | Twitter | Ask a question or pitch an idea: [email protected] 

Support the show

Support the show

Spatial Attraction is written, produced, and hosted by Kursty Groves.

Original music and sound production by Lee Golledge.

For episodes and updates, visit https://kurstygroves.com/podcast/ - and follow Spatial Attraction on LinkedIn and Instagram.

To suggest a theme or guest, email [email protected].

Send us Fan Mail

How Does Your Office Space Manifest Your Culture? With David McKay

How do spaces change the way we talk to each other? The way we feel about work? And the way we behave at work? David McKay from Innocent Drinks joins Kursty to discuss how their spaces manifest their company culture. They explore how spaces can bring people in, why they invested in a sustainable factory that’s filled with plants, how they experimented space configurations that work best for their teams, and why you’d want to be copyable. 

David Mckay is the Head of Culture and Workspace at Innocent Drinks. Innocent Drinks is a B-Corp-certified company. They started the first carbon-neutral drinks factory. 

Support the show

Timestamps

[00:29] Episode Overview: Who is David Mckay? 

[03:59] How spaces express company culture

[09:56] What if any member of the public could visit your facilities?

[12:42]  Why limiting choices at work is effective (and other lessons from Covid-19)

[20:53] Experimenting with different space configurations

[28:06] What’s the point of the office?

[35:06] The blender: the first carbon neutral drinks factory 

3 Key Takeaways: 

• It’s human nature to want to slip back to what’s comfortable. Within this context, it can be helpful to take away choices from people or limit choices. 
• To make it evident that you are listening to your teams, you have to be flexible with making changes. This is especially the case when you’re experimenting with new things and introducing new ideas that are meant to be tested and evaluated together. 
• You do not necessarily need a prescribed purpose for what offices are for. It can be that you allow each team member to develop their own perspective and purpose for the role the office plays in their lives. 

Links 

Connect with David McKay: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-mckay-8579aa75 

Innocent Drinks: https://www.innocentdrinks.co.uk/ 

B-Corp Certification: https://www.bcorporation.net/en-us/find-a-b-corp/company/innocent-drinks 

Connect with Kursty Groves: LinkedIn | Twitter | Ask a question or pitch an idea: [email protected] 

Support the show

Support the show

Spatial Attraction is written, produced, and hosted by Kursty Groves.

Original music and sound production by Lee Golledge.

For episodes and updates, visit https://kurstygroves.com/podcast/ - and follow Spatial Attraction on LinkedIn and Instagram.

To suggest a theme or guest, email [email protected].

Send us Fan Mail

Solving hybrid work challenges requires us to talk less about desks and more about how we work. Emma Morley and Kursty discuss what it’s like to solve hybrid work, all the things that get in the way, and how to be more intentional in solving for it. Different stakeholders around the office often have conflicting and ever-changing requirements for what the office should be like and what it should be for. Tune in for insights about how to decide what problems are worth figuring out and what problems are unnecessary distractions. 

Support the show

Timestamps

[00:29] Episode Overview: Who is Emma Morley? 

[03:15] Should you give your employees what they ask for? 

[10:17] Is it possible to future-proof office spaces?

[13:02] Does balance really exist? 

[16:34]  Working in silos vs. working together to design office space 

[23:28] Designing for Monday morning meetings vs. designing for energy

[27:40] What’s missing from online conferences?

[32:01] What remote work problems should we solve? (and which are not worth it)

3 Key Takeaways: 

• Sometimes, when companies attempt to have adult-adult relationships with their employees and try to be employee-centric, things start becoming rather individualistic. People start making demands that pertain to them without considering the larger group's needs. 
• There isn’t a perfect static balance. Balance is always moving and shifting. It is dynamic. If things feel balanced, you must also keep in mind that it might not stay that way long. 
• Conferences are re-energizing. They remind everyone of their purpose and renew their commitment to the company and its mission.  But, it’s not the same in virtual conferences. It is hard to replicate the energetic experience of face-to-face conferences. It’s critical not to compromise such high-value face-to-face interactions. 

Links 

Connect with Emma Morley: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-morley-b9664b21/ 

Trifle* Creative: https://www.triflecreative.com/ 

Connect with Kursty Groves: LinkedIn | Twitter | Ask a question or pitch an idea: [email protected] 

Support the show

Support the show

Spatial Attraction is written, produced, and hosted by Kursty Groves.

Original music and sound production by Lee Golledge.

For episodes and updates, visit https://kurstygroves.com/podcast/ - and follow Spatial Attraction on LinkedIn and Instagram.

To suggest a theme or guest, email [email protected].

Send us Fan Mail

Plants can change your mood, so should offices have more of them around? Kali and Katie from The Glasshouse project join Kursty to discuss how plants can boost mental wellness, productivity, and creativity. They also chat about how having plants in the office can encourage staff to want to work from there rather than from home. Rediscover why you need more plants in your life throughout this episode. 

The Glasshouse Project is a social enterprise in the UK that helps female inmates fin housing and employment by bringing nature into urbanized environments. They provide corporate gifting packages, plantscaping services, and workshops that simplify the process of caring for plants. 

“They just grow, they’re just useful, how could you not want plants around you?”

Support the show

Timestamps

[00:29] Episode overview: Kali and Katie from The Glasshouse Project 

[03:38] What is The Glasshouse Project?

[05:53] The secret is in the soil 

[07:26] The mental benefits of keeping plants in the office

[13:08] How plantscaping can change your corporate culture 

[17:21]  Expanding The Glasshouse Project 

[18:55] How Katie got involved in The Glasshouse Project 

[20:12] Becoming a horticulturalist: a softer way of life 

[24:12] The connection between creativity, productivity, and nature (what the studies show)

[31:39] How to get plants from The Glasshouse Project

[33:57] How The Glasshouse Project’s business model is changing 

[35:11] Can you bring the Glasshouse Project to your country or city?

3 Key Takeaways: 

• Urban environments that are devoid of nature negatively impact mental health. Plants ground us. Being surrounded by a man-made environment without nature causes stress and anxiety. 
• Plantscaping your office can potentially boost mental wellness and decrease the amount of sick days being taken. Even small moments of interaction with nature indoors can make a noticeable shifts in the way our minds deals with stress. Bringing nature inside can create a welcoming environment. 
• Taking care of a plant can prepare people who are recovering from addiction for bigger commitments like taking care of a pet or getting into a serious relationship.

Links 

The Glasshouse Project: Website | Instagram | Facebook 

Connect with Kali Hamerton-Stove: LinkedIn

Connect with Kursty Groves: LinkedIn | Twitter | Ask a question or pitch an idea: [email protected] 

Support the show

Support the show

Spatial Attraction is written, produced, and hosted by Kursty Groves.

Original music and sound production by Lee Golledge.

For episodes and updates, visit https://kurstygroves.com/podcast/ - and follow Spatial Attraction on LinkedIn and Instagram.

To suggest a theme or guest, email [email protected].