Spirit of the Deal

Mind Strength Balance focuses on issues of thought, growth, and identity, and is owned by Lincoln Stoller, PhD, CHt, CCPCPr. Lincoln has experience in science, business, project management, teaching, biofeedback training, and hypnotherapy.

PhD: Quantum Many-body Theory, U. of Texas, Austin CHt: Hypnotherapist, Int'l Medical and Dental Hypnotherapy Assn. CCPCPr: Clinical Counsellor, Canadian College of Professional Counsellors and Psychotherapists

He has expanded our knowledge in quantum physics, astronomy, aeronautics, statistics, computation, education, psychology, education, counselling, and neuroscience. His passions include mountaineering, diving, piloting, writing, building community, making toys, composing music, and creating relationships.

Connect with Lincoln here: https://www.mindstrengthbalance.com/contact/

Introduction to this episode. 0:00 Lincoln's Introduction. 0:43 Where do you see the evidence of evolution coming from? 2:31 What is mind expansion? What does it look like? 8:08 How do you get from a diagnosis to fun? 14:05 Shamanic wisdom is not a medicine. 23:43 The shaman is like a Cheshire cat. 29:26 How do you keep from going off the rails when working with other people? 35:30 The shamanic model is not there yet. 40:48 What happens when you go into trance of guided meditation? 46:18 How does one obtain true peace? 51:20

Intro Guy 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general you're so limited thought process Rest assured, you are not alone. The world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the question you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world the people in it? Most importantly, how do I proceed now moving forward? We don't even have all the answers but we sure do love living in the question. Time for another hit of spiritual dub with your host Brandon Handley. Let's get right into today's episode.

Brandon Handley 0:43 Hey there spiritual dope. I'm on here today with Lincoln Stoller. He is a mind strength, balanced, focused personality who is he's got his PhD ch T. You got a bunch of initials all you know what they all stand for. But he's got experience in science, business project management, teaching biofeedback training, and hypnotherapy. Scott, his PhD in quantum many body theory out of the University of Texas in Austin. If can hypnotherapists international medical and dental hypnotherapy Association and also clinical counselor or the Canadian college of professional counselors and psychotherapist Lincoln, thanks for being on today. I know that you reached out to me just to kind of pop on and have a conversation, I guess around the psychedelic realm. Right? Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah. And look, I mean, it's actually kind of funny. I, one of my, one of my clients was out of the University of Texas in Austin, once upon a time. So small world, small world. So I usually like to start this off with the whole idea that, you know, you and I were just basically conduits for universal energy, right? It is flowing through us at all times. And like we kind of, we were just expressing life energy one way or another. And when we have this conversation, you and I, you and I are talking to each other. We think we know what we're talking about to each other. But the person listening is listening, they're hearing something totally different, right? And there's a message that can only be delivered through you today to that person and listening. What is that message that's coming through today like

Lincoln Stoller 2:31 that we're part of an evolving system that's bigger than we are? In your little intro there. I would say I'm also talking or always feel like I'm talking to the culture, a kind of really amorphous being that's made up of all our little minds. And I don't know what it's hearing. I'd like to think it's hearing better, but I'm not sure it is.

Brandon Handley 3:00 Not fair enough. I love it when talking to the culture. That's a mind shift right there. Right, just kind of right off the bat. And I really, I appreciate that. And in terms of like, evolving, and, and whatnot, where do you where do you think you'll see evidence for that? Because that's something that's been rattling around in my mind recently, is that every culture, every society thinks at the pinnacle of it. So where do you believe you see the evidence of evolution?

Lincoln Stoller 3:37 Well, I think evolution is easier to redefine than define. So I would redefine it as a feedback process where a system tries to optimize itself, I think the best example is a fungus, you know, a fungus or a mold, I think, unfortunately, cultures, humans and otherwise, reach somewhat blindly toward opportunity. And then they get burned. And hopefully, they learned they usually don't, that's the sad part. And as individuals, I think we do much better a total individual focused guy, you know, really like to the point of anarchy, basically, I think individuals contribute the main force of culture. And then, of course, we're immersed in it, you know, it's the soup where we're boiled in. I think, you know, just as I assume, in fact, most of the listeners would agree with me that we're kind of on the edges of culture, or the boundaries if you want to be more, you know, self satisfied about it. The forward boundary, put it that way, and make us all happy. And we might be leading culture, although I'm not even sure leading and trailing is fair. But the psychedelics the, you know, the old Terence McKenna, I don't know he wasn't here. his idea, the, you know, the stoned monkey idea. And also there's the 100th Monkey idea, which I think could both be debunked fairly, literally, but taken figuratively, you know, the more of us who expand our minds, the more the culture will expand. It's whatever it is mind, consciousness, awareness. So I, I think, and this is my whole story about, you know, becoming enlightened and becoming able, it's an uphill battle, because you're gaining, you know, breadth and depth in the context that lacks that. It could be a personal context or cultural, legal, social, you know, all that stuff. So right now, we're expanding, and the listeners are expanding to. I mean, as you said, it was a mind shift. And that's what I'd say, is the most useful mind shift. Whatever problems you're having as an individual, are not entirely yours. And whatever advances you make are not entirely yours, either. They're shared.

Brandon Handley 6:13 Just so you know, kind of like this. I love the edges of the culture, but as a culture as what was what was young saying?

Lincoln Stoller 6:24 A lot of stuff, what do you

Brandon Handley 6:28 call? What he's the, you know, the collective conscious? Yeah, right. Is that? Is that kind of what you're talking to?

Lincoln Stoller 6:39 I don't know. I think, you know, Jung was almost 100 years ago, I think we've, I think we have to do better than that. But I think it's collective unconscious, collective conscious. I don't know who speaks for it. I think, you know, sort of like these pseudo pods reach out. You know, I'm teaching my son who's 11 Something about history. And I keep coming back. And we all keep coming back to German fascism. And how insane that was, but it keeps happening. You know, he wasn't the last he wasn't the first. And before he became our enemy, he was our friend. And, you know, he came from a culture that is our culture. And it was less than 100 years ago, and it's scary. So here, we now take psychedelics. And you know, to put it in the most dire framework, we still have a world filled with Hitler's and Stalin's, but now they're called Putin and whatever. And now put those guys on psychedelics. And holy shit. I come a little concerned.

Brandon Handley 7:50 I mean, right. It's, I think putting people who have let power kind of already go to their their heads and put them on psychedelics. It's be definitely be an interesting trip, to say the least. But um, let's talk real quick, though to like, I mean, as you're talking about, like edges of culture, leading culture or or trailing it, right? It also just, engines have thrown the words expansion in there, too. It just always makes me think of like the edges of the universe, right. And we're kind of writing we are creating, that we are the edge of the universe, right? We are that edge of the culture that's continually growing and expanding. And to that end is, is that the mind when you talk about mind expansion? I'm just kind of curious even what you mean by mind expansion, right? Like, yeah, I could say What's that look like to you?

Lincoln Stoller 8:52 I think it is, has to be seen broadly, that there's a mind body that, you know, a good aspect of who we are stored in our body, in terms of how we think what we think how we react, what we are alert to it stored in our memory, again, in terms of how we react and associate the things. If you put it all together, that makes a mind. I'm not entirely reductionist, though I think I sound that way. But I'm trying to break things into pieces that are that I can swallow. And I fully recognize that some of these pieces don't fully disconnect. So like mind and body, you can't really tell them apart. They're constantly talking to each other and influencing each other. And one of the most effective ways to look at us and mind in general. I mean, there are many, but one that I keep coming back to his intellect versus a motion. Where intellect can be reasonable and rational, deductive inferential kinds of the stuff. And emotion is very different. It's almost always holistic and vague and so forth. And our culture doesn't still doesn't give a lot of respect to emotions. You know, they say, yeah, you can be emotional, a great actor, great presence charismatic, but you've got to translate it into, you know, intellect, logic reason. And that just doesn't work, especially in the realm of psychedelics, and in the realm of dreams and trance. You know, sometimes you can get it, but not always.

Brandon Handley 10:44 Yeah, even even in the spiritual space, right? And things spiritual, right? Trying to translate that feeling, the sense of knowing into something that somebody will accept, right, is very challenging. I like the idea of, you know, the intellect versus the emotion. And the other piece where you say, you know, there's some of these things don't connect the body mind. And it makes me think of build disconnect is what makes me think of how other cultures outside of Western cultures, they don't have separate words for body in mind, they don't have separate words for heart and mind. Right? It's when you get to the Western Western culture that we separate that so we've made some type of separation forcibly, through by accident, by our choice of how we speak. Right, right. So trying to reintegrate that is a challenge. How are you seeing that? You know, what are you doing for your clients, I guess, to to help them get connected to or recognize that they are connected? And that it's okay.

Lincoln Stoller 11:56 Well, it's a little complicated, because different clients have different barriers, I would say, you know, forgive me for, again, being somewhat reductive, but there are different answers to the question. So, you know, some of the kinds of clients I would characterize, are the confused people who know, they're confused. The conflicted people who don't know whose problem this is, and are trying to figure it out. And then, you know, there are the people who so monetize their problem. And it manifests as a physical ailment. And they're very interesting. And they're also difficult, because unless you're a doctor, which I'm not, I'm dealing with the mind, and I'm trying to get back at the body back to the body. So what I do with people, I mean, I think the first thing you do is to establish some trust, doesn't have to be deep trust doesn't have to be you know, whatever, just whatever it is, there's a level of trust, you work it to some viable point. Maybe it's intellectual, maybe it's emotional, cultural, whatever. And then I basically try to get them out of their heads. Because this whole intellectual approach, pretty much you know, people have reached, we're good at it. We're good at being intellectuals. That's the western model. And if progress has stalled, it's probably not because of lack of intellectualism. It's probably because too much intellectualism, too much, you know, not enough spiritual, emotional, experiential stuff. So I try to get people out of their heads. And you do that by either reminding them of what's important that they're suppressing, or confusing them to the point where they stop trying to, you know, intellectualize anything.

Brandon Handley 14:04 That's like a colon.

Lincoln Stoller 14:07 Yeah, but more directly as a trance. I mean, that's what hypnotherapy is about. You take them into a realm where the CO on becomes real. You know, so you do try to get away from even language. So not just poetry, closer to music, or rhythm, or emotion, emotion or body feeling. So getting them into that. That's where I find progress. At least for people who are looking for progress. Some people are looking for fun, which is fine. But even if you're looking for fun, I think progress can be fun. You know, I'm not even defining fun is not so easy, either.

Brandon Handley 14:50 Right? Right, right. I think that in when you mentioned that there's not enough spiritual, emotional and experiential. Sometimes. I think fun and play are a couple of things that are right are certainly missing and allow for a reconnection to the body get into that flow state. And and when we let loose, right, and quite literally let loose your brain releases releases that tension and whatever else is kind of stored up in there. Yeah, right, you're in a totally different space. Yeah, I can, I can see that for sure.

Lincoln Stoller 15:24 So imagine, you get a client, and they have a problem. And they're focused on the problem, or they have a diagnosis, and they're broken the diagnosis. So how do you get from a diagnosis to fun? You know, and I think that's a serious question, because learning doesn't go very far. If it's not fun, right? I mean, if you have to learn and it hurts every time, should you know that's not a great learning environment. So how do you get somebody who has cancer? To get to fun? And you say, that's impossible. That's ridiculous. But it's not exactly if you sort of redefined fun as empowerment, progress, control, hope, you know, things that uplift you. I mean, maybe they don't make you laugh. But, you know, a really empowered person could laugh, even in the worst circumstances. Personal maybe that's kind of hopeful. But

Brandon Handley 16:21 the the possibility does exist? I think so. Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let's talk about like, you know, how did you, you know, how did you get into the psychedelic space of this, this whole thing, right, like, I know that you've got a wide varied past, covers a lot of different ground. But one of the things we're gonna chat about today is, again, the kind of the self psychedelics and this both spiritual and mental health aspects.

Lincoln Stoller 16:48 Well, I didn't come as a healer. I came into it as an adventurer, I'd say I came into everything I did as an adventurer. And the thing that differentiates an adventurer is that we are reckless. Because we were looking for adventure. We're not looking for answers. We're not looking for accolades. We're really fed by adventure. So I started as a mountaineer, which is very adventurous. And then I got into physics, which is pretty adventurous, especially if you do it as in a rebellious way, like I did have everybody throw you out of their class, because you asked too many questions. You know, and that that's very sobering. At first you think, oh, you know, they think they think I'm a jerk, do they think I'm wrong, that I can't follow the program. And it takes a long time to realize the benefit of not fitting in, in a field where there's progress to be made. Maybe in some fields, like, I don't want to, these are fields, I don't know anything about dentistry, but welding X, I do know something about welding, you know, structural engineering, maybe those are fields where you don't want to be an explorer, or at least, you don't want to be held accountable for your mistakes. But in most things, you do have to be held accountable for your mistakes, and you have to be able to make mistakes. You know, a good Explorer is careful, but curious. So my initial explorations and psychedelics were as many in the underground are, you know, you I did not do it recklessly as a teenager, I didn't even start doing it in earnest until I was probably close to 40. And I did it through the ceremonial things, you know, mostly Ayahuasca ceremonies and the derivatives of those indigenous things. And some of the spiritual stuff that came out of acelin Like, sensory deprivation and the pasta meditation and stuff like that. So those were explorations.

Brandon Handley 19:12 And yeah, you know, so you you didn't, you didn't you didn't come across it to you know, initially for like, spiritual awakening or any of this other stuff. It's just kind of like, Hey, here's this give it a shot. Well, you know, what do you think kind of thing? Oh, well, little.

Lincoln Stoller 19:36 No, no, not quite like that. It was more like I want to find out what's over there. It was more curiosity than

Brandon Handley 19:43 that. Yeah. What was leading that what were you looking for? Well, that's

Lincoln Stoller 19:47 what I didn't know. But like all these people were talking about enlightenment and spiritual cosmic consciousness. And I'm saying, Well, I don't know what that is. I I live in a circumscribed you know, Western world where were the questions are, you know, in the back of the textbook? And now you're telling me that it's, you know, all around me? Well, you know, first thing you you hit you hit on religion, which says, you know, get down on your knees because God is looking at you all the time. And I'm saying, Well, I don't see him or her, or them. And let's go find them. You know, why not? You know, it's like going into the wilderness, all the animals flee. So what if, you know, the Divine is doing that too. They see you coming? And they say, Oh, God, here's another, another, you know, environmentally rapacious, moron. And, and you smile, but the truth is that higher states of consciousness do flee from stupid people, since, you know, they don't they don't get tangled up with your problems. It's like, if you're not ready for it, there aren't any time to waste. Right? You know, they're not going to make the argument that you should behave better, or you should listen more carefully to your heart. You got to be there, and then you'll hear it. Yeah. So this was my attitude.

Brandon Handley 21:09 Your attitude was toward the psychedelics. Yeah. To hear us Economics here at Z, you know, and what does it take?

Lincoln Stoller 21:17 Mountaineering was helpful, because you get in situations where you really feel like you got to be on top of a situation that's dangerous or out of control, and you got to listen really carefully. And maybe you'll hear something, it's, it's an interesting thing that you will hear, you're not going to hear a voice speaking to the wisdom of the universe, you're going to hear the crackling of the snow, or the blowing of the wind. And that's one source of wisdom. I don't know if it's in the wind, or it's in your acute hearing, more or both. But that was part of it. So for example, you know, I climbed El Cap by a difficult group when I was 17, which was quite young. And, you know, quite an experience you have on the wall for seven days, six days, and you start to become accustomed to a vertical world, and things start to become rote. And, and the sense of twirling around at the end of a rope, like a spider, you know, 4000 feet above the ground, starts to become sort of normal, it's still, it's still, you know, gets your endorphins going, but you got a job to do, and you do it. And then you get off, and you get back into the normal horizontal world. And it's like a, it's like, a crushing load. You know, now you're in society, and you can feel people looking at you. And thinking, you know, they don't know what you've done. They just look at you like a regular person. And you can feel the weight of normality. And it was, in that particular case, somebody gave me up a capsule of mescaline and said, Here, go to a tour around the tourist bus in the valley, Yosemite Valley. And I did and I remember telling somebody, I just claimed that and they said, No, you didn't, you know, they couldn't conceive of it. And I What can I do? But laugh, you know? Yeah, so this was sort of an I say this not to stand out as odd. But I think when you make movements to open your consciousness, you're out of the world, you generally don't have anyone to talk to. And it's probably best that way. Because if you'd like sit down at the feet of some master and say, Tell me what the answer, it's like, you're gonna get some more verbal stuff. That's

Brandon Handley 23:43 sure. Well, I mean, I think I think that a lot of the Masters, you know, that we would reference right, you know, any Zen Buddhist, or any of these people, they would all tell you that they have nothing to teach you. Right? That you've already to whatever it is, you're looking at you are you know you in Hinduism, like you are that right? So, you know, they

Lincoln Stoller 24:06 they do one thing I don't like, which is they tell you to listen to them.

Brandon Handley 24:14 Sure. And suffice to say like, you know, the gist of it is if you go looking for a guru, you'll find right yeah. And you find one then you do then you listen to them, right that's your path. That doesn't have to be your path and they the they'll tell you that just as much right you don't go out as a guru seaching students so much the students come seeking you right. So I think that there's a there's a little bit of a little bit of a thing there and again, I think for the most part most spiritual masters are gonna say you don't need really anything other than what you've already got. Right? And so you know, you're seeking it. it, I guess, in a way, by leveraging some of the psychedelics is that kind of one understand, like, again, you're looking for this thing.

Lincoln Stoller 25:08 Right? That's how I started. That's how I started. Okay, then now we're changing sort of the focus in professions and culture and so forth. Can people are coming in?

Brandon Handley 25:20 Yeah. How are you seeing it? I guess in your in your professional space? How where's it showing up? I understand it, you know, traditionally, doctors like they shouldn't be taking, you know, what it is that they're prescribing, which kind of puts them at a disadvantage. Where are you at in this space? What are you seeing? And I think we talked a little bit about the beginning that you feel like we're in a rocky state. Yeah. I'd love to hear more about that. Yeah, let's get into it.

Lincoln Stoller 25:53 Well, you know, for a coincidence of language, some of these psychedelics were translated as medicinal medicina. But you know, what a medicina is in a shamanic culture is not what a medicine is in ours, in spite of the similarity of the words, so some of these, I'm thinking of the ones that are making the news these days. But if we got ketamine, MDMA, somewhat psilocybin, not so much LSD or by Wasco, are presented as medicines or potentially medicines. And then we've got pharmaceutical companies scrambling for patents and derivatives and, and it's getting a little unseemly, you know, it's starting to sound like money starting to smell like money. And then you're looking at professional practice. And, you know, Western medicine has this paradigm of how the practitioner helps the client. And that's not at all like what the shaman does. The shaman has a different role in the shamanic society than a doctor does in ours. And not a religious role, either kind of, you know, half spiritual or half spirit. It's like I say, a shaman is the kind of guy you would not want your daughter married to. I don't think there's any exception to that rule. So we're not really incorporating shamanic wisdom, which is deep and I think shamanic wisdom is the appropriate wisdom to use to understand psychedelics and Oregon, we're not doing that in the medical incorporation. But we are doing like

Brandon Handley 27:50 Lincoln, say that again. So I mean, what does that look like? You know, you believe that we should be doing in the way that a shaman may so expand on how a shaman, may I assist a psychedelic experience?

Lincoln Stoller 28:04 Oh, dear. Well, there's many threads to this. And I'll take yours just because you asked me to. It would not be the first one I would go on. I would tend to go on what the medicines are doing, what the medicine what the medicinal people are doing. But the shamanic approach. I think it's a recognition of the value of chaos and destruction in the kind of Hindu sense. disintegration, reintegration, transformation, Transcendence. The shaman in the cultures I'm familiar with, is not particularly welcome, in most cases, because they're not really allied to any material personal agenda. They live in a semi spiritual world, semi numinous. And they do strange things, sometimes good, not necessarily good to each other or to people and they have a strange sense of humor. So they're kind of instruments of chaos. I would say, you know, pretty generally shamans are instruments of chaos. And some of them they, some of them come from an herbal tradition that has healing background or healing agenda. You know, they can do both or something like that. And, you know, if you get involved with a shaman, it's like getting involved with a Cheshire Cat, you know, they can just disappear and be left with nothing but a smile. And you don't know where they are. Because there's basically saying in my understanding that the world is not as we see that there's more to it. And the leading influences are in our material world. So if you're not in the shamanic world, or the transcendence sphere ritual, you know, world of spirits, you can't really make sense others out of the shamans agenda, it's not entirely there or here, somewhere in between, they're sort of a doorman. Not entirely responsible for you, they open the door, you know, they wave their feathers blow their smoke and give you the thing to drink. And then they dance around and sing, and it's, you know, up to you, it's up to the spirits to help you not to them, you know, you have to make contacts, you have to be worthy of your own transcendence. Or, you know, I like that in terms of a model that was like, kind of a mountaineering model, you go out there and either learn, or you get your self slapped down. Right. And those are real lessons, but they're dangerous. And they're hard to appreciate. Because they don't obviously make you money, fame. And, you know, get you adulation. And if they do, you know, watch out, because those are, those are your things, not, you know, their things. So that's the kind of the shamanic model, in my view is transcendent. It's not entirely you can't really fit it into a spiritual box, or religious box, or political box or cultural box, it's out of the material world. And so if you're a spiritual person, it can make sense. Okay.

Brandon Handley 31:31 So, I guess if I had to, kind of self self transcendence with like, an assist, right? Yeah. Yeah. I really, I like how you mentioned, you know, they, they're there to kind of help open up the door, they're not responsible for you, basically, after you walk through, right? Like, you're like, hey, I think I've talked some other people that have had done the Ayahuasca journeys, or something that I've ever done, but it's like, you kind of you take the ayahuasca and you kind of hold on to the rails, right? It's like, alright, well, this is the x, here it comes. Right, and it's gonna, it's gonna show you some things that you may or may not be prepared for. But I'd like

Lincoln Stoller 32:11 to compare it to, in my own experience, parachute jumping, which I only did at once, but I think once was enough, I mean, I'd love to do it more. But I don't think I'd need nearly as exciting the second time. So the first time you do parachute jumping, you know, you go out the door. And all you have is your belief in how the thing is supposed to work, you know, at some experience and what you're supposed to perform, you know, that assume that assume the position and execute these actions, and then control your, your experience. And that's sort of like what it's supposed to have happen in a psychedelic experience, you go out the door, and you pull the ripcord and, you know, the world will unfold below you. But it can be that you go out the door and the parachute doesn't open in the psychedelic experience. Right, you know, and then what are you going to do? You know, I had one experience mountaineering where things went sideways. And I found myself, you know, hurtling down the side of a mountain, out of control. In a direction I wasn't supposed to be going. And I was spinning around in the air bouncing. And I think it'll probably turn to, you know, be written on my gravestone that the greatest thing I did in my life was I just opened my eyes and enjoyed the experience. Yeah, and I didn't get freaked out. And obviously, I survived.

Brandon Handley 33:48 Right. Right. And that's, I think that's a I think that's, that's that's a great approach. But and I think that we hear a bunch of people express that in different ways, too, right. Some people expressed the I just kind of opened my eyes and experienced it. But then literally, that's all that happened, right then did nothing. So what does that look like for you kind of opening your eyes and experiencing life?

Lincoln Stoller 34:17 Well, you know. Part of the answer is it depends what your environment is. So if you're in today,

Brandon Handley 34:27 like how did you leave Lincoln? Like, what do you do to experience like, kind of open yourself up and experience life today? What did what did today look like for you?

Lincoln Stoller 34:35 Well, what I've been doing in the last month has been writing a book so I'd go sort of into the space of communication and expression, which is creative and somewhat disciplined because um, you know, it's got to get into a finished format. And bad ice. I'm with my 11 year old son. So that's interesting. In view of the world that I'm talking about things I don't know, you, we talked about history and other sorts of things that adults assume that adults know and kids don't have, and it wasn't, you know, psychedelic or particularly unexplored. I do have to watch myself because I do tend to go off the rails, I like to be off the rails. Sure, but if you're with other people, they often don't appreciate it. So as a counselor, I have to be careful because other people need to go off the rails, but it's frightening for most people. And part of my job is to help them take off into the rails or out the door, and to apply my, you know, discretion as a guide in their world, to make them feel safer, safe, safer, and exploring their world. So I tend to be I compare myself to the story of Don Quixote. And, you know, his faithful servant, Pancho Sanchez. And I'm Pancho Sanchez, and their donkey Odie, and I'm trying to get them to tilt at windmills. Santa, I'm trying to, you know, get them to see the world like, like Vincent van Gogh, but not cut their hair off? Like he did.

Brandon Handley 36:48 Right? Write that down thing, you know, there's certain links I don't think you have to go to, in order to achieve achieve that. So, you know, how's this showing up? I guess, in your practice, right? Are you? Are you working with others? Through psychedelics? Are you? Is it about primarily to assist yourself in the psychedelic realm? Because the other thing that you'd mentioned, too, is like you, I don't know that you said, you hit it hard, harder, at least once you're in your 40s. But like, where? Where's it showing up now for you? And how are you leveraging it in your practice? psychedelics?

Lincoln Stoller 37:26 Well, the psychedelics are problematic because they're illegal, and they're unknown by authorities. The reason I think we're heading for trouble, is because there's a standard sort of management, dictum of wisdom, which is that you have to have authority with responsibility, you know, if you have the authority to do something, you've got to be responsible for what you decide. And the unsaid third component is you have to be competent. Because if you're, you know, incompetent, nothing's gonna work out well, even if you do have authority and responsibility. But we do not see those things coming together those three things. So we see government, which has the authority, they're not taking the responsibility of doing therapy. And they're certainly not competent, because they're not therapists. And we have the therapists who are presenting themselves as authorities. And they do not have competence, because no one's knows what this territory means. And they're trying to put the responsibility on the practitioner, you know, the authorities, which is to say, the Medical Teaching, the institutional training, put the responsibility on the therapist, they're trying to teach the therapists how to, well, what does it mean to be responsible? I guess it means, but it means two things, it means your client doesn't hurt themselves. And it means your client doesn't get traumatized, which is to say doesn't feel that they were hurt. But roughly, of course, you'd also like to say that your client makes progress. But that's always kind of a bugaboo in therapy, because progress, it's not yours to define. You can like test them. But that's not really I don't think that's fair. If somebody feels they made progress they did. If they didn't, then they didn't. You can say on some metric, they changed, but I don't really buy that that's kind of legalistic. So, so we don't have these things coming together. And in the everyday we have a new institution offering certification on psychedelic therapy. And it just horrifies me because it's still illegal. And you still can't learn from doing it. Unless you do in the underground, but you're not supposed to do it in the underground. If you're certified, you're supposed to always stay above ground. We can do it in another country. Free, which seems to be the only real way that most of us have done it. As therapists, we go to Costa Rica or something. Or, you know, wherever we go, or we don't talk, we, you know, whatever. But we do it at home. Right? Right. So, you know, that's the rockiness of it in order to gain responsibility and, and competence and knowledge. Somebody's got to start learning what they're doing. Most of the programs that teach therapists and certify them in psychedelic therapy, do not involve ever taking the psychedelic, and how you could gain competence without being there is like being a shaman without ever connecting with the spirits. It's like

Brandon Handley 40:48 Lincoln, do you think do you feel like I mean, is that model broken? It sounds

Lincoln Stoller 40:53 like it's not there yet. It's not even a model. It's just a proposal. What? Again,

Brandon Handley 40:59 are Yeah, the proposal, right authority, government, and, you know, authority, responsibility and competency. Whereas if we go and we take a look at the shamanic model, we say, All right, well, who's got authority and responsibility, and he's competent, but for I think it's the outcomes that I think deviate a little bit here. Right, like you're saying, you know, there's these other things we are, you know, I think you didn't mention on this podcast, but I heard another one of your podcasts, and we talked about having a, a port psychedelic experience, and I've had, I've had plenty of them. But that's also, you know, that set and setting, to I wouldn't say I was traumatized, or theoretically hurt, but I could definitely see somebody looking back at like, if this had been in a clinical situation, I'd be like, well, that person did this to me. Right. Right. Right, without taking responsibility for myself. Now, if we take a look at it, this kind of Shamanic model, like I'm response, this is my mind, right? This is what's happening with me, and I'm responsible, you know, owning that responsibility is, I think, a huge part of it. And, and I would say though, even though I had a poor experience, I felt like those were some of my most progressive experiences, right? Like, I mean, those were the things were, man just like coming out of it just unbelievable, right?

Lincoln Stoller 42:23 Well, this this is, this is a, that's a new paradigm. I think that's a new paradigm that the fact that you could feel terrible, and, and feel injured, and at the same time, think this was the best experience of your life. You know, some people who have had cancer say that? Who's, you know, well, here's an example, that's quite pointed, and quite simple. A client can accuse a therapist of anything, anything at all, they can accuse them in public, it can they can publish it in detail, the therapist cannot say anything at all in defense, because it violates client privilege. So that alone should give a therapist some pause, because some people, you know, part of the psychedelic experience, like you said, involves some unpredictable behavior and experience. And how do you fit that in a insurance policy? You know, because you got to think of that.

Brandon Handley 43:27 Yeah, it's, it's gonna be really interesting, I think, to see how, you know, it's been it's been interesting right now to see psychedelics and the progress that they've made what they're trying to do with it. But it's going to be very interesting to see how it evolves due to the fact that it's this it's uncontrollable, right? Like, it's, it's basically something you drop it into the mind map mind expansion, you don't know, you have no idea what the outcomes gonna be, you really don't?

Lincoln Stoller 43:57 Well, here's I want to jump in and say, here's my idea. I think people should approach psychedelics through mind expansion and find out exactly what is going to happen when they take off the brakes, or they break through the barrier. But you know, sure. So it's like, you know, parachute jumping, first, you jump off a platform onto a mattress, and then you get the feeling, right, you get the feeling or you imagine it right, and you don't freak out. Quite, or if you're gonna freak out, you do it on the mattress. So, you know, there are other ways of trance and if you're serious about doing something like psychedelics, I think this is what I would say. I would say if you're serious about having a positive experience or a healing experience, then I would hold you to exploring altered states of consciousness. Without psychedelics, to see just what you find there, what it looks like how, you know, whether you really like it, or what you know, and whether I can help you or control you, or whatever. And if you don't want to do that, then I'm, I think I wouldn't work with you.

Brandon Handley 45:18 Now that makes sense. And that makes sense, right? I think that, again, especially with psychedelics, if somebody's not willing to put in some of that pre work before the actual adventure, right, that's like, you know, keep going back to your, you know, before you do the parachute, and you got to do the parachute practice stuff, right? You got to do the stuff that makes you feel comfortable to pull the cord and know that you're gonna go up there. What is, you know, you mentioned, like altered states of consciousness. What are what are some non psychedelic ways to enter into that state that you found?

Lincoln Stoller 45:54 Let's say the simplest is like meditation. You know, how good are you at meditation? You? It's could be very easy. But let's talk about it, you know, that, you know, could you actually sit for an hour? You know? And would you have the patience for that? You know, and what came up. And another is hypnotherapy, right? Go into trance of guided meditation. What happens some people, there's quite a variety of of results, some people can be, go into a light trance, some people go into heavy trance, I had a client who came to me. And given the circumstances, I was offering past life regression. And they thought this was ridiculous, and a fraud. And they were gonna play it, and just show me how stupid it was. So we did the kind of protocol and they brought in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. And then they got quite upset because they stopped behaving correctly. And other animals started appearing in their mind that were not part of their Disney narrative. And they didn't behave as the animals. And and I was saying, yeah, exactly, that's all it is. It's just what comes in, you can start any way you want with any prejudice you want. But at some point, you're trying to get beyond it into the area where you don't know how the characters are supposed to behave, and they start behaving on their own. So that's a trance experience. And I've had other people who, you know, they approach what seems to be rape, you know, and then, you know, my, my role is to say, I don't think we're going to go there. But I think, you know, we're just gonna, we're just gonna teleport right beyond that experience. Because I don't know these people, on the other hand, that I've had clients who felt that they had childhood, sexual sexual abuse. And then the question is, well, just how much do we need to explore? And my answer is only as much as you feel comfortable with. So these are things you can do and let's see, you could do well, there's not a lot of in between stuff besides hypnotherapy, which I like, you know, there's exercise diet fasting meditation. Sure.

Brandon Handley 48:32 I think that works. So Right. I think that works like and I mean, I just asked him for a couple of ideas there, right? If somebody was like, alright, well, maybe I'm interested, what are some others altered states that I could get into before leveraging or or going all in, right. So I

Lincoln Stoller 48:49 also there's, there's lower doses not to write well,

Brandon Handley 48:53 you don't start off with a tense drip of acid. Right. Like, I just think that that's probably a bad idea. Right?

Lincoln Stoller 48:57 I think so. And setting setting right, you are

Brandon Handley 49:02 super important, right? Yeah. Setting setting. Where are you in your headspace? Right. Like, are you really ready is today Good? Did you have if you had a shitty day, I'd say hey, maybe maybe maybe not today. Okay.

Lincoln Stoller 49:14 And do you have a container that you trust? And you know, you have a sitter? Or do you, you know, that kind of stuff? And are you being pressured? Or are you really feeling that you're doing this of your own? recognizance,

Brandon Handley 49:29 right? You know, how would you describe if you could, you know, the first kind of go round, right? What would somebody how would you explain that somebody's psychedelic experience?

Lincoln Stoller 49:44 I think I'd Well, it depends whether you're asking me whether I just have to state it as a story or whether I can engage them because my my inclination would be to talk about dreaming and to try to get them to Recall dreaming experiences, and to get them to be engaged in participating in their dreaming experiences. So I think that, that's actually a difficult thing to do, it's certainly easier to take a pill to become involved in your dreaming means you have to have some control of your sleep. And then you have to learn how your intentions affect your dreams. And then ultimately, to some extent, you may become lucid in a dream. And then I think you have something to talk about, like, the experience, the psychedelic experience can be like a dream experience. But more or less, it can be more or less controlled. But it's the same sort of feeling that this is real, and I am real, but this doesn't make sense. Right? And often, I don't remember either where, who I was, where I was, or what's going on. And, you know, if a monster comes up in that situation, you can be really stressed out. You know, at the same time, if something like an angel comes up, you can be really inspired. Right, but that would be how I talked about it, like, start.

Brandon Handley 51:20 I like it, I like it, right? So a little bit a little bit, kind of like, you know, if you can think about lucid dreaming, and being in a dream state, similar similar phases, I would say. And I guess I'm using the word phase and like, you know, kind of material and bodily fees, mind states, okay. Well, hey, we're at a spot Lincoln, where I usually like to ask a couple different questions. If you're good for it. Yeah. Because basically, Look, man, I look at this podcast a little bit like spiritual speed dating, right? You know, you're gonna be on here, somebody else is tuned in and they're like, well, it is called spiritual dove. They're looking for their next hit. They're looking for the next person to follow, be with and learn from for a little bit. And what can it could be you man, could be you.

Lincoln Stoller 52:08 Well, like I'm saying, I'm talking to the culture, part of part of me is just sorry for the culture. That's it? Well, let

Brandon Handley 52:15 me ask you a couple of questions here. And I'm gonna call you spiritual basketball. Number one. How does one obtain true peace?

Lincoln Stoller 52:27 Damn. I think by not looking for it. I don't think it's, it's like, how do you get rich? You know? What do you go out trying to make money? No, you know, you, peace is redefined. Like rich, like wealth is redefined. So I think you look for your power, and you look for your opportunity. And you have a commitment to yourself. And in that combination, you find peace. And if you combine those things, and you don't find peace, then I think you've got a problem of the combination. Not a lack of opportunity, a

Brandon Handley 53:07 little bit like baking a cake, you gotta get the ingredients, right, and the mixtures gotta go on, right? And it's kind of gotta gotta go in a certain order. You also said that this is you brought it up earlier to like, if you go chasing it, it becomes elusive.

Lincoln Stoller 53:22 It does. But you know, another thing I harp on is, you got to make mistakes. And they've got to be okay. And maybe even as we said before, fun. Yeah, I mean, some of my greatest, most fun experiences have been wind surfing, when I've wiped out, right wipe outs can be really fun. You know, losing control can be hysterical. And, you know, people are adventure seekers, I think people who are taking psychedelics unless they're, they think they've been promised something, which is probably a bad idea. Have to have a sense of adventure and willingness to yours. It's very mythological. Like, if, if you read, like, I'm reading to my son, he's 11. So here, I've got this thing, some of these fantasy books that have monsters and angels and good and bad guys. And you imagine yourself that it's not a fantasy, that's really the dream you're gonna have, you know, demons, guides. Immortality, hell. If you can navigate that, it's probably going to feel real, something like that. It's going to feel real. I forgot what your question was, but that was my answer.

Brandon Handley 54:48 And so that's it was a What was the question? How does one obtain true peace, right? So let's see. What is uh, you know, she's, you probably deal with A number of depressed people, I don't know, why are so many people depressed? Well, I

Lincoln Stoller 55:06 don't know, I'm the right one to answer. Of course, I'm not the right one to answer any of these things. But I would guess that it's confusion and struggle and change. I would say the culture is undergoing change. And we as agents of it, are lacking in what we're being directed to do what we're being rewarded for doing. change agents. I mean, they say don't shoot the messenger, we always shoot the messenger. And were the messengers. That's the, that's kind of depressing. So I mean, get over it, you know,

Brandon Handley 55:44 you signed up to get shot. Well, Lincoln, really appreciate you being on here today. You've got such a vast, vast wealth of knowledge and experiences. I know we've barely touched on it, where can people come and find out a little bit more about what you have to offer?

Lincoln Stoller 56:01 Go to my website at mind, strength balanced.com. All you know, no separations all run together mind strength balanced.com. And sign up for the, you know, the blog. And it's free, it's monthly. And if you want it weekly, you pay a small amount, and you get weekly. And then their books and there's new books coming out. And they're linked on the website. And I I'll talk to anybody for half an hour for nothing. B call the number and give them direction.

Brandon Handley 56:32 Nice. Bill, fantastic. I think that's a that's a great, great way to be, you know, offering that time you know, it's the peep. Some people aren't willing to offer that kind of time at all. I know that I've reached out to some people and I've had to pay for the time just to have a conversation right just to see if the conversation was worth having. But hey, everybody, everybody dictates how they want to live their own life. And you're you're doing it to be of service. So Lincoln, thank you again for for your time here today, reaching out and

Lincoln Stoller 57:02 you're welcome, Brandon. It's been great. Thanks a lot for the opportunity.

Intro Guy 57:08 Really hope you enjoyed this episode of the spiritual dove podcast. Stay connected with us directly through spiritual dove.co. You can also join the discussion on Facebook, spiritual and Instagram and spiritual underscore Joe. If you would like to speak with us, send us an email there Brandon at spiritual dove.co And as always, thank you for cultivating your mindset and creating a better reality. This includes the most thought provoking part of your day. Don't forget to like and subscribe to stay fully up to date. Until next time, be kind to yourself and trust your intuition.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

John, is a survivor of severe physical and sexual abuse which was inflicted upon him for years and starting from a very young age. John saw and experienced many things that would haunt him for years to come. This would result in a diagnosis of PTSD, giving him night terrors that would follow him into his early adult life. Later he would be told he had Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), Depression, and a genetic, neurological condition called Tourette Syndrome. John was determined to not let his past or diagnosis define him. He took to Martial Arts, and energy work; this led him on a path that would change his life forever.

Connect with John here: https://godswhospeak.com/

John's introduction to this episode. 0:43 Breathing through the eyes and ears. 9:33 The depth and breadth of energy work that's required. 17:59 What kind of people come to you? 23:33 John's experience with sexual abuse as a child. 28:45 What's the process like to become a guardian? 37:21 If you haven't taken the time to get to that level of understanding with medicine, it's going to diminish the experience 43:25 What's preventing people from living to their full potential?

Intro Guy 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general, you're so limited thought process Rest assured, you are not alone. The world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the question you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world the people in it? Most importantly, how do I proceed? Now moving forward? We don't even have all the answers, but we sure do love living in the question. Time for another hit of spiritual dub with your host, Brandon Handley. Let's get right into today's episode.

Brandon Handley 0:43 Hey there spiritual dope. I'm on here today with John Goff. He has alternative views through metaphysics, philosophy and martial arts. He's taking people to uncomfortable places and learning to breathe through it. Clearing trauma, emotions, energy, bringing humanity back to a state of light and wholeness. Remembering what they have only forgotten John, thanks for being on here today, man. They can have me on. All right, cool. So I don't know if you've ever listened to an episode or not. So I like to start these off with the whole idea that you and I are conduits for universal energy, right? We're here as a service to others, not just for ourselves. And when somebody tunes into this podcast, they are. They're gonna hear a message that can only be delivered to them for them. Right now, like that's coming through you? What's that message, John?

John Goff 1:38 Living in the present. We're surrounded by technology. And while this technology can be beautiful, it can help us communicate and have moments like this, where we can talk to our friends, we can have videos and people all across the globe. There should be a limit to it. Well, what time do you disconnect? Do you put it down? He's like, Yeah, we're gonna take pictures want to share in everybody? So what about a moment that you're alone? That moment you're you're with somebody, and you're not present. You're so connected to electronics, the forget what's like distill that moment. I don't care if you got a zoo. If you're out in nature, there's a butterfly going by yo, you're trying to catch the butterfly. But you didn't capture the butterfly in motion with your heart. So taking time,

Brandon Handley 2:22 yeah, look, man, I've been I've been guilty of this, right. I've been guilty of not capturing the moment so much for myself and being present. But Who Wouldn't this make a great post Ooh, wouldn't just make a great posts or something like that. Right. So I've, I've been guilty. And I absolutely know what that's, you know what you're talking about? And as a matter of fact, I mean, I was thinking today, I was making some dinner a little bit ago. Like, John, I can barely remember life before the internet, let alone like now now with like, kind of social media and all this other stuff, right? Never posted before my life, right? You know, 20 years ago, you never posted. So, you know, we were not being as present as we could, right? We're still like so connected, even at the phones, like kind of like away from us right now. We're like, oh, maybe I should make a post. Or maybe I should do this. And it sounds like what you're suggesting is like, you know, kind of unplug and get reconnected with the present, get reconnected with yourself. And what's actually right there with you. So I'm just saying,

John Goff 3:28 Yes, I mean, I know a lot of us, our businesses, our podcasts that, you know, we need this technology, to express our message and to really get out there. But after the message sent out, what's developing for us out, you know, as soon as we put the electronics down, so we have that moment of time, to be that conduit, to build ourselves to be present enough that when it's time to express that message, or to have communication, we're having it with the purest vibration, our hearts are really open. Our minds aren't scattered, all the chatter that we have going on out there, it gets to shut down, because we have a moment for ourselves to be a silence and a breathe. So we actually have a message to give. And is that the highest frequency that we can give it? Because it's not disturbed by everything else around us?

Brandon Handley 4:13 Yeah, no. Awesome. Yeah. And look 2.2 Right. We're constantly surrounded by all these, you know, devices, TV, radio, podcasts, you know, any other type of media, there's always some type of like electromagnetic interference, like kind of always passing through us. Even when we're sitting still and nothing's on and we're still sitting next to our phone. That's the receiver. It's our it's something's happening. When we bought our first house, the home inspector walked us by the microwave. And he showed us the EMP wave, right? Like how like when the microwave is on just like the the frequency the pulses that we're kind of like, you know, pushing out and he's like, you know, just just so you're aware They'll stand too close to this, they'll put your head on this and stare at this. So I get that right. And we want to have a clean, clear conduit and vibration, right as we send those signals out there. So John, you know what a couple of the things that I brought you in here for today, I met you through an app called pod match. And something that caught my eye was, you know, you've got 22 years of martial arts and beyond. But like breathwork was something that really caught my eye and what you're working through and doing. Once I'm a little bit about, like maybe your background, what you're into right now and how breathwork is playing into what you do.

John Goff 5:39 So let's talk about breath work. I take the term chi or people you'll find the martial arts or just Chinese medicine and of culture, energy, the Japanese call it key the Koreans call it key in Cantonese is, hey, India have prana yet have mana and Hawaii and all these names for the source energy. But the further you go back, and back and back, it's also meaning breath that's in the translation for it. Because if you can breathe it in, you can have a flow through the body. So that's where I started paying attention to one of the strongest power lifters do the ones who aren't on steroids. They know how to breathe, the guy throws the fastest pitch, he knows how to relax your breathing, the person throws the farthest football they know how to breathe, and especially through martial arts, or tai chi, and meditation, there's a link to breathing. Those who know how to control the breath. Whether a slow breathing, rapid breathing, they understand how to use the body, they're more connected as a mind body spirit. Why don't you go spirit body mind, reverse that because we start with the mind, then, you know, if the mind is cluttered, the body isn't cluttered. But if you understand how to fix his body, fill this body understand what's at the cellular level, or this energetic level through the breath, the body is calmer, the minds tend to be calmer, or this vessels energy or we call spirit, it's going to be calmer, leaving no more calmness to the mind. So I focus on that breathing as I've seen the connection between people breaking bricks or doing healing work. Everything's based on you can't be tense. But when you're breathing, whether it's rising tension, just to lower the body down in this state of relaxation, you are now producing something that people say is impossible. But now science backs is all esoteric practices. You breathe, you meditate, you lower your heart rate, you take down the stress, that cortisol goes down. And of cortisol is that stress factor in the body, which is been shown to create disease, you are stopping the dysfunction of the body, you are lessening the chance to disease. So I decided to move towards breathwork even with my training, when people are working martial arts with me privately or doing healing sessions, breathe, and you have an emotion coming up. Let's breathe. What do you mean, breathe out, I am breathing. So I'll teach him how to slowly breathe, whether it's basic square breathing, five breaths and hold it for at least and vibrant breaths hold it like that. There's this constant state of needing learn how to breathe, and what it means actually breathe. So and I have I have Tourette's. Sometimes I Twitch, you know, things happen. I stutter a little bit. But when I take the time to slow down and breathe, it gets less. I've had doctors looking at me like, whoa, like you're not twitching as much. You're calmer, but I take the time to be present. What's happening with John golf right now? What's happening with you right now? As Brandon, what's happened? those around us? The breath? We're getting animated. And we're also what are we breathing it for somebody else? What are we breathing again, as we're eating food, from the media, from what we're reading, every time we breathe, we're pulling something in. And we're visually breathing. We're auditorily breathing. All these factors is what we're breathing in at multiple levels. So learning how to slow down, learning how to breathe. That's the first stages of healing. When that trauma comes up. We're going to break through it. When that pain starts to come up. Are you feeling pain? Let's breathe, the pain might still be there physically. It might be there mentally, emotionally, you might be entangled in pain, but our ability to breathe to honestly have what's happening for us. And now we have a chance to be present and aware. And now the healing begins.

Brandon Handley 9:33 Yeah, that's awesome. I was literally just talking with my wife right before this conversation she'd mentioned a friend of hers who was having some, you know, struggles with just kind of detaching emotions right or catching themselves being emotional in certain scenarios. And I kind of chuckled because she's sick of hearing me talk about breath work right now. But um, because I was like, Well, you know, if he just kind of You know, I'm walking the dog. And I think to myself, Well, maybe if you just take a breath in and detach from that emotion just take a second, right? But we are so conditioned to think that it has to be more complicated, right? I need a medicine for that I need, I need a doctor to tell me to do this, I need somebody to tell me. You know, what I'm supposed to do when all you need to do is take a breath, like you're talking about, one of the things that you're saying here to a couple of things that you're saying is like, if you take down that stress level, right, you're lowering the inflammation levels in your body, right, so your body becomes less and less inflamed. As you're lowering those cortisol, like you said, you have less chance of a disease. And it's something that you said that really I've never thought of before is the idea of that you're breathing through the eyes and the ears, you want to explain that a little bit more.

John Goff 10:54 And that's it. Seeing something that people might think is harmful or or degrading or evil, or, you know, it's outside of their scope of what they believe morals and ethics to be you why somebody out on the street, they're homeless. And the first reaction is, oh, my God, that makes me sick, that homeless person you don't know the story, you don't know, if they're mentally ill, nobody knows that they're a war veteran, what happened to them and their life that gotten the space that they're in right now that they're homeless, you're seeing and then you know, you're living, your breath changes, your Are you some storms that happen, people can animate it, and this judgment starts coming out. And then you have somebody else on the on different side of the coin, they see them, their heart starts to melt, they feel for them, there's empathy there. Because the way they were taught to breathe, or respond or look at somebody else, or situation is different. So they're literally breathing in it, they're seeing it, and what they're pulling in as if they're breathing. So if I see something and I go, man, that fool that idiot, that that's what I'm breathing. But I breathe in. I see that. Man. No, I wish they were in a better space. You know, I What can I do for them? If I was able to, there's a different level of being able to see and really see, because all reality, it's all perception based. And so how we're breathing at the moment, is also how we're going to see the world.

Brandon Handley 12:42 That's, I love that. Right? You're right, our breath is going to color color our vision as it were right on how we're breathing is going to it's going to impact our perspective. 100% 100% So, you know, the other pieces that you one thing that you mentioned to you know, says breathwork and other people you mentioned is doing some energy work, and you'd mentioned that the energy you work is like kind of like next level I forget the exact language that you use, but for lack of better terminology was like a diss on Western, you know, your general run of the mill. Reiki, what would you you know, you know, so what do you mean by you know, I don't know, kind of like your storebrand Reiki and what's the difference in what you're doing?

John Goff 13:35 I traditional Reiki is then Mike which is also and Mike Downes did that as well. Okay, so you hear through chi, you hear Reiki and then McCarley Suey, who have the concept of myth behind that he went through a mountain is that like he had these downloads only symbols came into him and then boom, you know a he had Reiki brought back to the earth. Well, I do believe that to an extent people also miss he was already a Buddhist monk is that my he was already a martial arts master he was already a high level Chi master. He trained in mystical schools of energy work. So he was already in a place to receive higher consciousness or a deeper level of energy. Pulling wants to channeling or receiving to meet a lot of semantics. So when when he sighed is that openness cool? So I'm just gonna bypass long story because it take Ohio when we started teaching, there's meditations. That isn't a mic. There was a different hand positions. There was breathwork than then to think of Kiko, which is Japanese form of Qigong. There was a whole system do it, and it took a while to actually learn Reiki as the actual system or the art or the ability to use it energy. The demon work with shock Because originally, I was taught and had the very good opportunity to work with some great grand masters and teachers of how Reiki was originally transferred and taught. So then, and I didn't know how it was taught in America, I had no clue. Even though I learned to hear from some masters, they kept the quiet, it was very hush hush. And I was like, Man, this is really weird. You guys are so secretive about this. And they said, well, what's the difference between secret and sacred? He said, You know, when, like, for us, the word sacred if you slow it down sacred secret, you know, we believe that, that the translations are that the accent of the word just got shifted around. So we want to keep things very, very pure. You have people do these weekend courses, Libya, two or three day period, people are walking around, I'm a Reiki Master. And they don't even understand themselves who they are yet. It took me 10 years to become a Reiki Master. And that's after working on a lot of people. That's that's writing hypothesis on Reiki. That's what what my findings, what are my results? What am I see? What am I feeling? What am I hearing? What are my clients seeing during the session? What are they feeling? What are they hearing? What is the experience? And that's actually I want my business is called the experience. I've asked people Hey, do you do raise you, they look up, they go raise you and like you said, your Reiki master. So over the years, I started asking less questions that are that are more in depth the way I was taught. And I started paying attention to the wording. And a lot of this is this new age just everybody has Reiki or re Reiki has to do with God. Reiki has never had to do anything with God. It because it was silly and ancient mystery schools can talk about other way. I don't know why people want to shift it over to something different than what was originally taught. And the original system. It was a hard system, it was not this easy system where you get an attunement, you little magical systems symbols go over your body and your palms are done. And then who open your eyes now. You're now a Reiki Master. That's something I've really struggled with, with and communities that people doing energy work. As a Reiki has become like a McDonald's man. Or like in martial arts world, every martial arts class everywhere anybody can do it, or McDo Joe, they don't actually understand what's behind it. They have very sugar coated, whitewashed Reiki. And so for me, I usually don't even mention that I do Reiki I'll put it down on my bio or on some of my credentials. Otherwise, we will show up I live another gonna go through and recession for energy work energy healing, or the release has made it facilitator for being a conduit for it. Because people hear Reiki I had a Reiki session done. And then I did a session on them. Whoa, that's why any Reiki I've ever done, or what you do is not Reiki because it's not the way they were taught.

Brandon Handley 17:59 Now that look, I get it right, I think that everybody wants to, I'm thinking of an older music song, everybody wants to be a DJ, everybody wants to be able to say that they can do some some energy work, right. And these courses, a lot of people are too busy to go into the depth that's required to do this really well. Right. And so they want to be able to get a taste of it, they might be able to like I don't even know what you could really learn over the course of of a solid weekend. But they they're not getting the depth and breadth. Like maybe they've learned how to do a wrist lock or something like that. I don't know, right? So they learned like one thing. Whereas like, and they don't know any anything about it, other than that they can do it. And that there's like maybe an intention and a purpose and a reason. Where do you use it? When do you use it? What is it? You know? What, what energy is this cleansing or whatever, right? Like, I don't know enough about it. But I mean, so what I'm hearing you say is that they're not getting the depth and breadth that they need to to really do anything other than say, Hey, I spent 500 hours we can learn how to do like these two or three moves. And I got this certificate with my name. Why

John Goff 19:19 exactly ma'am. I know it might seem harsh at times and I'm not I'm not trying or attempting to come to a place of judgment. It just it could be very bothersome to watch something within the energetic arts or the healing arts. I hold so true to my heart that it helped me help a lot of people that have had facilitated a lot of great work just just to look at somebody go into my music so your hands a little bit warmer somebody but what's the next step? What's next level? Because originally with the ratio when I was mentioned this people to hear the county silly did transfers of opening up energy centers for people to heal through a thing called ratio, there was no touch. And he's AIMSweb. A lot of people can't actually receive this. So he tried to make a way to get everybody to receive it. And that's where he was able to come up with the attunements through a, we wanna say, divine or celestial inspiration. Because, okay, I cannot lock these things in people. But it still takes time for them to learn. And then the system got Russia. And then system, we got a rush, and now you have k, you get these symbols, you take your things W and boom, you're open up a little bit. So they're legitimately open enough to do a little bit of one to 10. They're doing a one and they think they're doing 100.

Brandon Handley 20:45 Yeah, well, they don't like a point five, right. That mean? And, you know, I guess even even what you're saying there, though, too, is like, I guess even a trickle is better than zero. And it's and, and it's opening up a lot of people's eyes, I think, you know, there's the flip side of that. And just my thought process here is we're, as we're talking about this, the more people that kind of access it are getting knowledge about it, and believe in it and share it. You know, I think that's a good thing. One of the things that we're talking about a little bit here is just how widespread a lot of this is becoming. And yeah, there's gonna be people, I think that that don't reach the certain ranks that you do that you are right. And I think that that's maybe what some of these, maybe with some of these weekend sessions are for, right? Like, maybe it's so like, one out of 100 people's like, Alright, I'm actually going to dedicate my life to this. Right. And I think that there's a bonus in that, like maybe one out of 100 does. So maybe that's more or less what those things are for, it's to help separate some of the people or at least get them familiar with it. And so that they begin to, as you said, kind of connect with that source, right, that they never connected with before and been like, wow, there is another sense and a way of energy that I hadn't been aware of before. And now I want to know more. Do you think that's fair?

John Goff 22:12 I think it's very fair. And if anybody gets any of the teaching that will help us ship it in the ship, it is entering into the mystery. Exactly what is the mystery? The second, you know, if I would say I always have the mystery. With all my training all my background, I still don't understand the mystery. Because the mystery itself keeps on going when you think you have it. Sure, there's a step more. So it's like back to those same one step one breath, one session, next session, but another session, another session, but also the personal work and the sessions on yourself. Because the mystery is so deep, you're never gonna get it.

Brandon Handley 22:50 Yeah, no, it's right. I think that that's the other thing about being in this space, right? Being in the spirituality space and being in like, you know, in the energy workspace and being connected is like, there's, there's really, there's no end and no beginning. Right? It's, it's a it's always around, but you can, you know, I imagine you can get better at it. Right? You can you can reach certain levels where you can do things that you certainly were not possible before. So I mean, if you don't mind my asking, like, what are some of the things that you're healing with the work that you do, if you had to throw one or two things out there? What kind of people visit you, a lot of

John Goff 23:36 people come to me, come to me with relationship trauma, due to sexual trauma. being groomed, not actually understanding the scope of what love is and what love isn't. You know, whether or not kids are more PG, whether it's Daddy did something to them, or maybe mom, dad or uncle dad or an extra neighbor did to never understand what it meant to be appropriately touched. They have body autonomy, to actually be able to express the word know, to say yes, to have that control, Terminus can a give and take with their own energetic field, what is boundaries because they didn't have they didn't have boundaries. And law. This for me has also been found with people who are suffering the sexual trauma with religious trauma.

And I've taught it, it's, I have to not emotionally tag myself with the client, because it's easy project. So you know, some of the trauma that I went through that I've healed from, but sometimes a client can sort of pull some of that back out, which is good for me to be able to continue any depths of healing that I have to heal for myself, to allow me to continue with my work and have more empathy towards them. But um, it can be a struggle, man, you know, because when you're watching somebody who they're on their second there's a fifth man or they can't maintain a relationship. And then they go to a different facilitator. And I know we're going to get into in a little bit, are they going to plant medicine ceremony, and now everybody's doing ecstatic dance and the foreigner bodies around, and they're told, release your sexual energy, your sexual beings, you're a sexual goddess. And the list of these words go on this jargon just really gets to me. Because the breath isn't about sex, this feeling of energy release isn't about sex. So you've all sexual energy, that there's this ideal of what sexual is, it's not about having an orgasm. It's not about flinging your body everywhere, you know, like twitching on the floor. It is about connecting with your Source Self, and this masculine or feminine energy and learning the duality. As a man? What does it mean to cry? If I cry? I'm weak? No, you're not. That's a softer side of yourself that allows you to heal. If I'm a woman, I guess we got for myself. Yes, you can. So understanding what set with our sexual energy is and what it isn't. And that's something that, you know, sort of drives me crazy a little bit. When I'm watching people come to me, and I hear their stories. Well, I went to this event, I went to this I watched I went to this group, I went to this healer. And, you know, they're worse than when they when they, when they originally came to them. They, you know, they were already heard, never heard any more. Because now the divorced, why are you divorced? Well, I was told to let loose and then, you know, I started, you know, doing this, and I started doing that. And then they take that home with them. Because, you know, they were told it's gonna be healing from to be healthy for them. They were working on body autonomy and expression. But now, they don't know how to express it. They weren't taught to express with the other self with them, or within or with the partner. It became such a high vibe energy, that they weren't given any place to ground. They weren't given any type of integration. So who are you? Okay, I have this feeling I am breathing. And now you might want to Mon, guess what, I'll tell my client, it's okay, soften it. It because it's it might be essential feelings. But it doesn't mean it has to become sexual, like you were taught, you're going to respond, some people are going to say, oh my god, okay, hey, let's breathe through it. Because that's not the transfer you want to have. But it's a transfer people are taught to have that you have to have this big mon this big thing. What about anger? What about screaming? What about crying? Well, all these things have nothing to do with sex. And that's a lot of the root of the trauma, what I'm working with, people don't understand their own sexuality, they just have their body, they don't have the way to think you can't even shake a hand. And I've had women go, Whoa, because there were, a lot of these people have been so groomed, that starting with a handshake is where the trauma was. Starting with the look, I understand the red flags. And this is what I work with. It's a constant, and occasionally get the other person, maybe they're physically abused, or maybe, you know, maybe they went through a lot about emotional instability and household. But a lot of the clients that I've worked with the root cause of a lot I'm dealing with is that they were hurt sexually, they were shamed sexually. And they don't understand the root of sex, when it has nothing to do with the exploitation of another.

Brandon Handley 28:45 Right, John, and so one thing we, the the audience is certainly not aware of, because I know we didn't touch on it. I mean, you were abused, in quite some way as a child, both physically and sexually, as I understand it. And so you know, you've done a lot of work on yourself, obviously. And here, you continue to do that work on yourself. And through, you know, all these other modalities to Reiki drives, you do energy work, the breathwork martial arts, you've taken all of this, and you're helping others to use some of these tools and modalities that you've learned yourself, so that they can, you know, maybe face their traumas and work their way through it. So that's why these people are seeking you out. Is that right? Yes. Yeah, we did talk a little bit about so yeah, the flip side of this, you know, John, I when I when I checked out John's bio, and I told him today when we're talking, you know, as we talk a little bit about breath, work and energy work, I also noticed John had some plant medicine in there. And you heard him also already talk a little bit about how you know, this space. While I think it's being idealized and popularized right now and everybody's very excited because there's there's a lot of potential for healing, there's a lot of potential for deep work. There's a lot of potential for a lot of potential. There's also a lot of potential for abuse. And this isn't the first time John and I were talking about admission, this isn't the first time we've seen this. And I think we saw a lot of this in the 60s, right, where it's like, hey, free love baby, after a couple rounds, and I guess it's kind of what I'm hearing is still kind of going on, right? Like people believe that, you know, they go to one or two of these sessions, and that their minds are liberated, their bodies are liberated. What that and what this liberation means is like, I don't know, you know, let's go have sex in the woods. Let's, you know, let's, you know, let's say whatever we think, you know, sounds right at the time and, and write that into law. Like you were talking about people, trauma being triggered by shaking their hands or looking at them. So, you know, what are you hearing out there? And what are your thoughts on in the plant medicine world?

John Goff 31:02 I see I still use plant medicine. But I still have a plant medicine called Hot Bay. So I've been mission to serve at tobacco Snop is blowing your nose. It's sometimes it has a purge effect. Some people might want to keep with it. But it has the ability to put you into a meditative state. It can make you a little bit spinny. A little bit woozy at times. You know, so this is what i i personally serve AMI, this hobby of medicine, this tobacco based energy and energy behind it. Or if you are wanting to read more traditional the words, the spirit of the Ruma, which is all about healing tobacco was once a healing medicine.

So what so when I serve it, it gives people a chance, you know, to really sit with themselves. And you'll find where's the pain of the body? Where's the emotion to clear and calm down? You know, so whether it's me take people taking people who have been on methods enemies, yeah, different types of drugs. If they don't want, they don't want to relapse again, they don't want to go back. And that's a no this tobacco based medicine, it takes a stress down, it gives a chance to think and be clear. And this is the you know, the few I worked with when the plant medicine is people who are emotionally unstable, they're not grounded. So the hop is used to ground people. So when I hear about the hobbit being used in ceremony, or people go into an Ayahuasca are going to do the frog Venom or frog poison that known as combo, and you're getting these things done. I hear all the other stories with it too. That Hey, I was serving a hot day. But as I was, as I was spinning, and I thought I was in a puke, the facilitator came up behind me and started touching my head, or, or his hand started going up parts of my body that I was uncomfortable with, but they're so linked in the medicine at the lab, like you know, they're spinning, they're buzzing, that next thing you know it, they're being touched. And then he told it's okay, you said Mr. Mike, release the trauma. And then they tried to look very healing, when they were exploiting the person that they were serving, they came to them as, as a client, that, you know, these facilitators are promoting things, while you're under a substance, keep everything very, very pure. You and I might come in so no matter what it is, I hear the stories being told as dogma, these ideals, when you're in a vulnerable state, when the emotions are flowing, or if there's any psychedelic substance use within the medicine that can be very healing. Your their minds are being twisted. They're they're seeing something back to you breathing in through sight, that they're seeing stuff, they're looking around. And whatever the facilitator is doing, or whatever a facilitator is allowed to do, if you're in a group session, part of you starts to go, this is okay. Or starts to question. Is it okay? Because the way I was taught that these things aren't okay. So when when is it truth? When is it trauma? Or what is it more traumatizing? Because some of you seeing is what you went through? And now you don't you don't know what's actually happening at the time you cook out of it. You've been assaulted, something else has happened. You know, am I you know, some form of being taken advantage of is what's happening right now currently, a lot of these circles and these AMI said i Yes, I have 100% indoor plant medicine, when the facility facilitators are up point, when they know what they're doing with their tension is pure. I will applaud and say go all day. But do you know who your facilitator is? And these are some of the stories of hearing why he was with so and so. But now I will just though so, and they go, next person, the next person, these groups keep on falling apart, because he started getting a god complex. I know it all, I am the main facilitator, or I do it better than facilitator. I've met facilitators, just like myself and beyond, they've said, I was got a plan that said 400 times, 1000 times 10,000 times for years, they had the experience and the expertise to guide people to a better space. And some of the people, they stopped that three times, five times, and then they become so called to the medicine. Well, I've been doing for three years now. And all said they're hosting these big groups. Well, who taught you? Well, I wasn't taught, I just took it a lot. They didn't recall what we called Guardian, the medicine. So you have a facilitator, yes, there'll be guarded, where they walk through there on the medicine, but they're walking on the medicine, they're playing songs in the medicine, they're observing on the medicine, so they actually understand the frequency of the medicine. And a lot of these people who are serving the medicine, they were never a guardian, they didn't understand the process of what it means to be a holder of that didn't really carry it, carry in their mind, carry in their heart, and be able to stay in a calm space walk, while while they themselves were on the medicine. So when I serve, like my holiday, did anybody comes to me, I also take it, I'm on the same frequency as them, so that I'm feeling what they're feeling. I'm understanding the process they're going through, because we're both working through it together. So I can help facilitate for them, for them to be their own Shaman. And that's the other thing, you don't get a lot of people's like, I'm the shaman, I'm the healer. So I say I do healing work. Yes, I do healing work. But I will take a step deeper. I only facilitate the healing work. In the end, you have to accept the healing work, because you are your only healer, I can push energy and I can serve the medicine, how you respond to it, and what you decide to take from it. As when you become your own Shaman. And lobbies. groups aren't doing that. And people go to them. And now you have a cult following. And now you have meta we're obsessed with you. And things turn into a spiritual orgy fast.

Brandon Handley 37:21 Yeah, and like I said, Doesn't sound too unlike what we've seen in our culture before. If we think of the hippie generation, right, just kind of how, and this is one of the things I think that to me, is what I'm most afraid of, in regard to the RE emergence of psychedelics, right? The propensity to go in a direction that is not beneficial. Right, say, and to your point, which I wasn't aware of before, you know, these people, they're not guardians, they, they there, they, you're saying they've taken it like three to five times, and they feel the call, and that's great, if you feel a calling, right? Maybe if I was feeling the calling of a doctor after you know, I got stitches three or four times, that doesn't mean that I should be out there, you know, given stitches, right. And I think that's pretty weak one, but it's pretty weak analogy. But you know, the gist of it is, is like, just because I've gone through it a couple times. And it doesn't make me a master of it, right. Like even like we're talking beginning of this conversation. Just because I had a Reiki Master Reiki session over the weekend doesn't make me a master by any stretch of the imagination, no matter what that certificate says. So, you know, as a guardian, I imagined that you know, you have been a guardian of the medicine and, and gone through that process, given you know, even your vigilant stance today, what What's that process look like to become a guardian, like let's say, Look, man, maybe I really am called to it. And and I'm done playing games, and I'm ready to become a guardian. What's that process look like? John?

John Goff 39:11 Do you understand song? Do you just had a breath and then back to breathing when you got the space of you know, maybe started that five times that the 10 times and then something clicks I don't have to actually purge right now. Not everybody has to be go throw up physically throw up. Sometimes the Purge is you didn't now you didn't you need to go take a poop. Uh, you have to let out a different way. Now the Purge is a cry. Now. Maybe you're sweating. You're starting to learn to work with the medicine you're actually understanding it was like, wow, I I'm directing it. I'm working with it. I might just let it get takeover. To that's where a lot of bad things happen. You just let it take over. And there's so many people in a room Unless you do more private one on ones, then now you're really feeling it. So now that you felt that, and you see how there's different ways to release, and it's gonna say the word purge, now we're saying we're getting well, because you're not purging anything, you are releasing it getting well. So the purge factor gets less. And now you have to do you want to share, okay, now, you take the opportunity to share, because there's times that people have time to share, that's some facilitators will let you share that the know you're ready to share. Are your words healing are your words giving people some form of instruction, or maybe a different point of view that they want to thought about? That allows them to also be in a space of healing? And now, do you play any music? Do you drum at all? I wonder vibrations, can you give that that'll help the visit the facilitation of the medicine? So that, you know, there's a little starting point, and also approaching facilitator, unless you have to travel? If the close to hey, I'd like to work the medicine more. And ask them, what would it take for me to garden the medicine with you? Or have an opportunity to sit with it upfront, sit by the altar? And while you're serving it, you know, can I start with serving the hot day? Because usually hoppy does you always involved in an Ayahuasca or other medicines? Because it can help facilitate deepening the medicine? Okay, no, I'm going to be the facilitator. So no, but you can guardian, by serving the hot day in between rounds, to help people if they need to get more, or the little bit of that release to get well, then the hoppecke helped help them do it. Let's start there. So now you have opportunity to start serving medicine, why might they be the main medicine, your physician to guardian, some that is said to work in conjunction with the main medicine. And now you get a feel for that it might be a year might be two years. And then it comes a time, when they might say hey, we're gonna switch places, do you feel comfortable enough to serve the medicine, and if you do, they will teach you how to boil the medicine, you know how to bring it up, have a blessed it was needed. And the minister was in the process of grinding the medicine, of understanding each each drop each herb that deal that goes in. And now you go through the process of really learning yet, of feeling get of observing it, of observing, and that's basically observing it, if you can observe the medicine and work with the medicine and learn how to actually create it, and put it together. So becomes was supposed to be, you're never, you're never gonna serve it, a lot of people, you'll basic Hey, I did a few times document called do it. They just are already or you're already done. And they serve it. They never take the time to the process to make the medicine and actually feel the spirit of the medicine through creation, to where your energy is going into it. I mean, you take this little cop, you serve it up, to know what it's like to blow your heart into it, that you are blessing it. And now you are ready to actually give to the world. And that's lacking. So there's a short little process ideal of how to become a guardian, and then, you know, steps closer to actually surfing it.

Brandon Handley 43:25 Yeah, and I can only imagine just how much that's going to diminish the overall experience. If you haven't taken that kind of time. And gotten to that level of understanding with a medicine, then that's, you know, I don't know, imagine anybody who does something super awesome whenever you go to visit them. And the inferior product, right. And I hate to put it in product terms, but like I mean, that's really what it kind of boils down to, you're getting a you know, a cut rate experience, and maybe it is mind blowing again, and I'm not saying like, you know, a shitty experience. Well, you know, actually should experience would suck, right? Like, I mean, if you're, if you're going to this whole thing turns into like some drug induced orgy. You're not really doing yourself a service, and the people are facilitating something like that. It's really a terrible kind of a hack job.

John Goff 44:19 Yes.

Brandon Handley 44:23 Yeah. So I mean, you know, I think this conversation has been great though, because, you know, most of the times here we are right now, there's a lot of really good news, John going on about there about, you know, a lot of plant medicine, the exposure, a lot of people getting exposed to it. But I think that it's really important to understand that the people who are going to these, like you had said that they do their research, so you know, what kind of experience can they expect? What is the lineage of their facilitator who taught them you know, what's the you mentioned? Like the integration work, right? You know, what's that integration work gonna look like? You know, Are you even ready for it? Because what if you're already emotionally unstable? What if you're already in a trauma space? There's not going to be any benefit. As a matter of fact, that could make things worse for you, as you've mentioned, if you don't do some of this work up front, and if you're not in the right mental state, and, you know, to top it all off, it's facilitated poorly. Yeah, right. Yeah, so I think those are all like, that. That's all like, you know, that's honestly, like, you know, for the listeners, I think that that's somebody, that's something you should really, you know, check into, for sure, for sure. Well, John, you know, I really appreciate you being on today. Usually, I'd like to ask a couple questions. If you don't, unless you had anything else that you wanted to kind of mention around these couple topics, I had a couple other leftover questions for you. And we can start dialing it down. But

John Goff 45:53 I would like to, you know, just to add in, because we're ending with with a partner integration. If a person does side and you've got through a scenario now are going to go to any type of ceremony that's plant medicine based. Please ask them facilitators ahead of time, what integration will look like? Can you get a hold of them? Or is it a one time deal and get the comeback? Because, you know, sometimes it's medicine can be in your system for two days or up to a week, and it's still working through you and you go home, you don't know what to read or not to read? What listened to or not listen to you? Or how to listen to yourself? Can you get a hold of them? Hey, I'm struggling, I this really hard for me? Will they be there for you? Or do they expect you to be there for yourself. And if you've never had these experiences before it can harm you, it can be a scary thing. And I don't want you or anybody else to, to have a mental break. Or to have such a spiritual overwhelm, that you become lost in the medicine. This medicine is beautiful, it can help you it can serve you. But it can also work against you if you don't have the right setting for it to be there for you. So just when it comes to integration, please be very vigilant in asking the right questions. Because this can either save your life and help you move forward in a deeply a girl spirituality, or can be taken to a very dark places darker than what you're already in.

Brandon Handley 47:21 That's fair, right? And super fair. And really, that is a great question, right? What is this ongoing support look like? Right, I leave your situation I leave your ceremony. It's been great. I've personally never done Ayahuasca or had an experience like that. So I have no idea what to, you know, what to expect when when I leave a ceremony like that. And if it's going to be in my system, and you know, I'm still feeling the effects of this plant medicine days later. Without knowing that right, I might freak out a little bit. Right. So I need to know that there's going to be some kind of ongoing support for me in that scenario, right? Because I honestly, it's first I've ever heard heard of kind of heard of that, right? So, again, something really important that I think is being left out of a lot of conversations is exactly what you said that this, this could be in your system for days or up to a week later. And you could have some experiences, and you're going to want to know what what that support looks like. And to me, again, if this is if I'm entering into this plant medicine world without an experience like it before, and this support isn't offered, I'd probably run away quite quite honestly. Right. So great, great, great. Great suggestion to point that out. So thank you, John. So, John, I like to I always like to ask a few questions, right? I look at this podcast as a little bit of like a, you know, spiritual speed dating show, right? You know, somebody on the other line is looking for their next. I don't know, spiritual date, right? They're looking for me, the next spiritual mentors is too many people like to hop around, and that's okay. They're seeking, right? So, in that, in that context, I would say, hey, spiritual bachelors, number one. Let's see. Let's see, what does it mean to live in the present moment,

John Goff 49:25 to be able to see what's around you to know what's around you. You know, it could be the smile of you know, of your wife. It could be the person sitting at a restaurant with their head down, to notice what it actually means to to be here right now. And in observance, to truly be in a reverence for ourselves and humanity. What's what's encompassing our soul? What are we exposed to? And then what are we exposing ourselves to? To actually be so to be right here right now, to be able to look around and see but see with a true I see if our spiritualize so that we can actually be in a space of being something for ourselves and other people. That's the biggest thing right now be in the president BSU must be in observance.

Brandon Handley 50:17 That's great, right? Yeah, look, I agree, you got to, you know, just just try and be there right now with it all relax a little bit and spend some time in that space. Thanks for that answer, John. What else we got here? Well, what would you say is preventing people from living to their full potential John, fear,

John Goff 50:37 fear dogma. I want to be a doctor. So maybe due to my cultural, religious upbringing, like, that's out of the books for me. Because, you know, we fall into the trap of Have you become a doctor, that, you know, if you're going to be very scientific, you're going to be very medical. And that goes against everything you believe, spiritually, religiously. That's just a sort of shortlands on that one. Fear of actually, something more than ourselves. Because we were taught that we cannot be something hindered us something, some traumatic moment that we went, Whoa, stop right now. I can't go any further. Because they're also identifying with the story. If I stop living in this story, I'm not responsible, I'm now accountable for everything I do from here on out. So if they're in a story, and they're stuck, and that's gonna be a big one, what happens when I quit identifying with what I believe to be me, and I truly started with a potential of what I really am, or what I can't be the second I here's a work, you're gonna hate. A lot of hate when I say it. Choice. The second you choose for you, hey, I choose and right now I am willing to change, I willing to move forward, I am done. The story is eliminated. No more fear no more this no more of that. And I am present in the now. Whoa, now you're truly starting to wake yourself up.

Brandon Handley 52:11 Yeah, hey, look, John 100%. I had a conversation, maybe last week and the guests and I, you know, kind of agreed on exactly what you're saying right? Now, choice is so powerful, it may be one of the most powerful things that that occurs for you in this journey. And when you and I are talking about choice, we're not talking about do you want ketchup with that? We're talking about, you know, a conscious choice that, you know, could, you know, radically alter your life. And it could, it could, it could be a super small choice. But once you and even that super small choice is going to radically alter your life, because it's when you realize the decision that you just made in this moment, was different from any other that you've made in your life. And you did it on purpose and alignment with intention and all that other stuff, right. So I think that's the kind of choice that you're talking about. And that's the type of choice that when you when you make that choice, you will feel it in your body. And you will realize what what we're talking about the power of choice, right?

John Goff 53:30 Sort of honorable listeners to understand the aspects of healing, from the physical abuse, to the sexual abuse, to bad relationships that I experienced. And you know that there was a point where I wasn't do healing work anymore. I know, years ago, I didn't teach martial arts. I was hitting a breaking point. And I was popping pills. I was drinking, I was masking my own pain. And I had a talk with one of my old teachers, we reconnected and he's like John said, I'm not trying to give you a big head. You're really good at what you do. The world needs. It was last time you you needed yourself and either Whoa. I do need myself. It was something as simple as Do you remember what it's like to need yourself to be there for yourself? Because nobody's going to be there for you 100% of the time. And when nobody's there, can you show up for yourself? I made the choice. I would cold turkey. Not everybody can do it. I medically and psychologically don't recommend it. I'm just letting people see the power choice. I took on alcohol. I ducked down the drain. I throw the pills away. I made a choice and I never went back.

Brandon Handley 54:43 Down now that looks right. That's a I think that that's it to where you realize that just like you said, you need you. You need you for yourself more than anybody else does. And to show up for yourself as again another powerful tool is John. Thank you, man. so much for being on here today. Where can I send people to find out more about you and connect with you?

John Goff 55:05 Doctor speak.com You can find me through that social media Facebook, through the experience, and Instagram. I'm also on John golf underscore the experience. And you can also find me at beyond underscore conventional healings on Instagram too.

Brandon Handley 55:25 Awesome. John, thanks so much for being on today. I

Intro Guy 55:29 really hope you enjoyed this episode of the spiritual dove podcast. Stay connected with us directly through spiritual dove.co. You can also join the discussion on Facebook, spiritual and Instagram at spiritual underscore Joe. If you would like to speak with us, send us an email to Brandon at spiritual dove.co And as always, thank you for cultivating your mindset and creating a better reality. This includes the most thought provoking part of your day. Don't forget to like and subscribe to stay fully up to date. Until next time, be kind to yourself and trust your intuition

Kiersten Parsons Hathcock, author of Little Voices: How Kids in Spirit Helped a Reluctant Medium Escape and Heal from Abuse is an award-winning self-taught carpenter/furniture designer, and founder of Mod Mom Furniture, a kids' furniture company featured on ABC's Shark Tank.

She's also a TEDx speaker and an intuitive medium who works for the National Institute for Law and Justice helping detectives and families uncover truth in missing persons and homicide cases.

In her previous work life, Kiersten was a staff writer for Northern Arizona University and TV marketing executive for A&E TV Network and The History Channel.

An Ohio native, she now resides in Phoenix, Arizona with her husband, Scott, daughters, Natalie and Grace, and pup, Scout.

Connect with Kiersten here:

https://kierstenhathcock.com Introduction to today's episode. 0:00 The importance of connecting with your intuition. 1:48 What was your husband's reaction to this? 8:54 How to talk about this with your family. 13:35 What happens when deals don't go through after they're announced. 20:25 The cycle of abuse that you get trapped in -. 27:33 When you're in alignment with who you are, everything else will follow. 35:43 What is the National Institute for Law injustice? 40:19 Spiritual Bachelorette #1: Why is there poverty and suffering in the world? 43:53

Intro Guy 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general you're so limited thought process Rest assured, you are not alone. The world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the question you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world the people in it? Most importantly, how do I proceed? Now moving forward? We don't even have all the answers, but we sure do love living in the question. Time for another hit of spiritual with your host Brandon Handley. Let's get right into today's episode.

Brandon Handley 0:43 Hey there spiritual dope. I'm on here today with Kiersten Parsons Hathcock author of little voices. How kids and Spirit helped a reluctant medium escape and heal from abuse is an award winning self taught carpenter furniture designer and founder of Maude mom furniture, a kid's furniture company found featured on ABC Shark Tank. She's also a TEDx speaker, and intuitive medium who works for the National Institute for Law and Justice helping detectives and families uncover truth in missing persons and homicide cases. In her previous work life Kiersten was a staff writer for Northern Arizona University and TV marketing executive for AMI TV network. And it's your channel. Like I hear scurrying next to my door like somebody's gonna come in. An Ohio native, she now resides in Phoenix, Arizona with her husband, Scott, daughters, Natalie and Grace, and pup, Scout. Yeah, sure. So how are you? It's been a minute, I think. I think we've been on the schedule for a while now. So so glad that you're on today.

Kiersten 1:48 Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. And we talked a

Brandon Handley 1:51 little bit about, you know, how are we connected? Right. And we just talked about Katie Beecher, who was on the podcast before was in your book, and she said, hey, you know, check out check out spiritual dope, see what's going on? She's fantastic. And somehow I made it past your bullshit filter and hearing. And here we are. Given given the circumstances, that's right, that's right. Well, so you know, look, I like to start these off with the whole idea of and you're obviously open to this is that you and I, we're conduits for like universal energy, right. And also the whole idea that you and I are gonna have a conversation with each other. And we'll, we'll think we're understanding what we're saying to each other. And that'd be pretty cool. But like somebody else is going to be listening in that has like, a totally different take on what we're saying. And it's a totally different understanding. And there's a message coming through you today to that person. What's that message?

Kiersten 2:52 It's a, it's a big message. Actually, as you read in the book, it's a big message. So the message firm, that that I, the reason I wanted to write the book, when we just start there is because I really wanted to help skeptics, and also other domestic violence survivors, like myself, kind of learn to maybe open themselves a little bit to intuition. And I know I'm speaking to the choir here with you. But my journey has, it's been strange. It's a stranger than than fiction memoir, that's for sure. I grew up in Ohio, very grounded. I, you know, I built a furniture company, I went on Shark Tank, you know, I did all the stuff that you normally would do, you know, with business and career and family. But then when I was 36, I sort of got hit over the head with intuition, in the form of mediumship. And it changed my life in very big ways. And it also helped save my life, which is why I wrote the book.

Brandon Handley 3:51 In Thank you, right, I think that, you know, not only just opening yourself up to intuition, because I think intuition, we all kind of, I would say understand intuition. It's just kind of like, Oh, I've got a gut feeling. Right? Yeah. When you're saying intuition, you're talking to spirits, right? I mean, that's you specifically and the mediumship. And I just want to make sure that, you know, hey, cool, if it's working, awesome. Like, use it. Don't Don't ignore it, right? Like you're hearing something in your mind that's like, Hey, don't go down that alley. And you're like, who are you? And it's like, you know, some other attachments to it. And there's some pieces in the book too, I'd love for us to cover like that led you to go ahead and follow that intuition and kind of where it led you but like, you hear voices, and you listen to them, and you talk with them. And, you know, I think that you'd mentioned you know, you're like am I schizophrenic in the book and schizophrenic. Right. So

Kiersten 4:50 I went down every single road, you know, they can go down a psychological standpoint, but yeah,

Brandon Handley 4:55 right. Right. Well, because you know, as far as we know, As far as you know, like, that's not right. Right? Well, I suppose there's like, I didn't get a manual that said, you know, in fourth grade, you know, if you be ready for this,

Kiersten 5:10 yes. Or at 36, you ready for this? Ya know, I'm from Ohio, I'm, you know, came from a very grounded family, my parents were teachers, I was not even really brought up in an environment where we talked about, you know, trusting gut feelings or anything like that, to be honest with you. So, when I do speak about intuition, it absolutely includes mediumship and hearing things and seeing things. But at the same time, I know, there's also that internal voice, that internal compass, I had to really figure out how to listen to. And thank God, I eventually did. Yeah, well, and I think

Brandon Handley 5:45 in both these scenarios are KEARSON justice for the audience to that, when you tune into intuition, or some of these voices, you're connected to source, right, there's different channels for it all. And if it starts coming through, like, I don't know, don't ignore it. Right. You know, pay attention to it. If you feel I think inclined, like you did to go seek out help is to make sure that, hey, double checking, just to make sure we're all cool, we all agree that I'm not crazy. Okay, we're all agreement. Let's keep moving forward. So, you know, let's, let's, let's dive into it, right, like, you know, so. So I'm gonna tell the audience to like, when when I got Carson's book, I thought, you know, I'm jumping into mediumship, I didn't really read the subtitle to well, and just kind of jumping right into it. And again, based off of having a conversation with, with Katie, right, like hers, and I had that conversation with mediumship. And the beginning of your book starts off like that, right, which is great. And I've read somebody else read that it's a page like a binge reader. It really was, I think I almost ripped through like, the first 100 pages really quick, so fun and great read. Just so you know. But let's talk about it. Right? So okay, you're kind of hanging out, you're building furniture, you've got like, you know, your 2.5 Children, you know, husband, and everything's all working out. And you're building furniture, right? Once you start like hearing these voices, what's happening? Like, what, what's the scene?

Kiersten 7:14 So it actually started in the garage. So I had already been building furniture in our garage in Burbank, California for about three years, I think, at that point, almost four years. And so my normal routine is take the kids to school, come back, you know, basically belly up to the wood bench and start working. So I think what happened is that I think they're a combination of two things, I learned the healing modality of Reiki. And I did that in order to help our oldest child with anxiety. And I was a skeptic, even, you know, going into that in and even practicing that I was very much a skeptic. However, it did seem to be working. But what I didn't I didn't count on was that it was going to actually change me. And I think the combination of being in the garage and that solitary kind of meditative time, coupled with the Reiki is what really opened me up. And that's when I started to, you know, hear voices and children were saying, Mom, but my kids were at school, or nails were moving off the, you know, on the top of a workbench. So I was definitely seeing things that I could easily dismiss that we would all dismiss, like, oh, that something just moved, there was a truck that came by. But it became so intense that there was no way I could ignore it. And of course, I did question my sanity at that point. But you know, by the time I'm starting to see children walk through my kitchen, who are in spirit, by the time I'm starting to actually have sort of full on conversations with them without saying a word, that's when, you know, that's when I knew there was something to this. And then the validation that I would get on top of that helped a lot.

Brandon Handley 8:54 Right, and, you know, so you're hanging out, you're having conversations with spirit. My guess is you're trying to keep the shit together. And eventually, like you, but you bring it up to your husband, right? And what was his reaction to all this?

Kiersten 9:12 You know, he he was actually very supportive. I think he was a little bit like, Okay, I'm gonna just kind of keep an eye on her, to be honest with you, but he was he was outwardly supportive. He wasn't saying, Here's, that's crazy. He was saying, you know, I believe in you, and I don't think you're crazy. Now, the fortunate part for me is that he's also highly intuitive. And I remember one night we were laying in bed and there was a child standing at the door. And he saw her I had spoken with her earlier in the day but hadn't said a word. And he said, Do you see the girl standing in a door with a long dark hair? And I you know, I hugged him. Thank you for saying that.

Brandon Handley 9:53 I got you. I got chills on that. And here. I'll tell you like my wife sees stuff every once in a while and kind of always has Between us all, I'm in no mood for it. So yeah, yeah, yeah. It's gonna go ahead and trust that it's happening. I don't need, I don't need to verify I'm cool. So, what I think is cool about that. And super important is that having that kind of support because I mean, that takes a lot of it took a lot for you to be like, Hey, I'm seeing things and this is going on, right? Like that could go any direction in the relationship. Right? But like, he'd be like, be like, Listen, I gotta get the kids and go. Good luck with the ghosts. Yeah, I listen to Eddie Murphy. Out. Right, like,

Kiersten 10:42 yeah, exactly. I give him a lot of credit, because he didn't fail on that, you know?

Brandon Handley 10:47 Right. So I mean, you know, that that that can take a lot, especially, you know, as you're going through it, and it's coming up. So. So yeah, let's talk about validation, right of it. So it's not just validating you got some kind of validation from, you know, your husband and this other stuff. But like, let's talk about where it leads you like next right, I believe, you kind of get let's let's like, walk through the book a little bit, I guess, as

Kiersten 11:10 that sounds great. So the next step was, you know, starting to ramp up and I noticed that the more that I was open to it, the more it would ramp up, the more people would be kind of showing up on my doorstep, so to speak. And I remember channeling a boy named Nate and he I described him in the book and his family, and I'm still really close to them to this day, which is awesome. But I didn't know Nate's I didn't know Nate, he died when he was 13. I knew his parents, but I didn't know them very well. We went to high school together. So you can imagine as I'm just scrolling the Facebook feed, and I see a memorial post about Nate's death. And it had been a few years since he had passed. He then shows up on my right side and starts talking to me. And I, you know, I'm kind of freaking out at that point. I'm scared for a number of reasons. Because I A, he's asking me to share information with his parents. And I'm thinking, you know, I don't know, I don't know them. I don't want to hurt them. What if this is correct? What if this isn't real? What if this is all on my mind? So you know, I went through all of the emotions you would go through as a sane person. And then ultimately, I decided, you know, I had to get quiet, you know, I had to kind of put it away for a little bit and then come back to it. And once I came back to it, I had this knowing of you know what, it's time I can do this. And I'm so glad I reached out to them because I was able to share messages and continue to share messages to this day. And Nate is with me quite a bit. He's, you know, pops in and out. He was actually even with me when I was recording the audio book. And he knew that I was really it was getting really hot if you've been an audiobook, and I was also claustrophobic. So he decides he's going to open the door for me. And I have to tell you, the audio engineer, I think his life has been completely changed this experience, because, you know, he's hearing the door open on the other side, and I have an entire blanket between me and the door. There's like, no way I could have opened it. And yeah, he kind of freaked out. So that's Nate. So Nate's awesome Nate opens doors, and he facilitated communication between you know, his family and myself and it gave me the confidence that I needed to continue to move forward. Because without that, I don't think I would have had the confidence I would have just stuffed it away. You know, I would have thought this isn't I don't want to deal with this. This is too much.

Brandon Handley 13:35 Well, I think it's one thing to talk about it with your family right right like hey just see goes yes I'll go so that's all see goes right like whatever right where was it goes family that's what we do. This is coming out beyond your family right and reaching out to people that a like you said, there already like and just not the best place right? As parents like nobody will ever wants to lose their child no matter you know, no matter what. And then you're like, Hey, I've been talking to me and but they were receptive right but you took again, this is another kind of like a leap of faith right? Another chance where you just like but yeah, we'll go ahead and we'll do it right.

Kiersten 14:18 A lot of leaps of faith. Scary. Very scary.

Brandon Handley 14:22 Super scary. Um, no doubt no doubt. You know, you talked about opening doors to I just want to highlight this part two you know as as you go through this, I'm just gonna jump through some pieces here as you go through this. You've got no other spirits start like they're all like hey care, sister. Wanko go reach out to cares to like a lot of them right. But a part of what you do, and I thought that this was pretty cool was you help them through a light door and this is just prompted by you talk. Talk a little bit about this, this this thing that you do and I believe is that satisfied? was a two part of your organization as well? Is that something that you do as a service? Or is that kind of just something that's ad hoc? And then the group that you?

Kiersten 15:09 Yeah, it's kind of just ad hoc and ad hoc, you know, what happens when it happens? If a case does come through or nonprofit, it requires me helping someone crossed into the light, then I can totally, I can do that. But that was new to me. I mean, I'd watched I'd watch the Ghost Whisperer, right. So I knew that there was something you know, that had to do with crossing into the light. But I didn't know what I was doing. So as all of this is happening, you know, I was not the person who was seeking any education on this, I just, I was not mindful of any of that. So as they're starting to come in, I'm starting to notice patterns. Because I'm very scientific. I like research, I like to find patterns. And I started to notice that when Spirit would come in, and they hadn't crossed into the light, or on the other side, they would be on my right hand side, like they would come to my right, they would, there would be chills on my right hand side. If they were already on the other side, they come to the left. So I was starting to notice that but then there was the what do I do? So I googled it. And apparently, you can Google a lot. So I Googled how to build furniture, I Googled spirit into the light. I'm a Googler. So I googled it. And I basically just learned that I, you know, if I speak with them, they speak back, I reassure them that there's no hell that they can come back and forth, I envision in my mind that there's a large light that they can walk through. And I just, you know, it's a lot of reassuring, because a lot of times, you know, I mainly channel children, or young young people, teens, sometimes in their early 20s, that's kind of that's the AGE RAGE for me for some reason. But some, some of them have committed suicide, and they feel a lot of guilt and fear, you know, that they're gonna go to hell, and so I do a lot of explaining before I actually help them cross.

Brandon Handley 17:04 So that's pretty cool. I thought, I think that that's pretty cool that you know, you know, you don't just communicate with them. There's also a part of what you do, that says, hey, you know, your sock, let me help you through and it's okay to, to pass through, you're going to be okay, on this other side versus kind of like, again, just standing there on the ledge waiting for you know, and just being afraid of what's next. Right? Guidance. Super cool. The these guys do your spirit. You know, your spirit connection. also helped you to get on Shark Tank. Let's talk about that a little bit.

Kiersten 17:37 They kind of did. Yeah, I mean, they gave me the intuitive, you know, intuitive hits to do it. My dad actually called me up. And he, this was in 2010. And he said, have you seen this new show called Shark Tank? So I just sort of laughed thinking it was like, you know, a show about sharks? And he said, No, no, it's for your business. Like, I know, you're, you know, I was busting at the seams at that point at celebrities and interior designers from all over the world, asking for my toy boxes, which was kind of crazy to begin with, right? That's where you know, intuition works. Because I was just a mom in a garage. So anyhow, he called me up and asked me if I'd seen the show. And so I took a look at it. And my first reaction was, this looks really scary. And I don't know if I wanted to put myself out there like that. And then I, again, sat back and thought, Now, I can do this, I need to do this. Because I need to grow my business, I need to scale it, I needed to find a manufacturer, because I was at the point where I could only do so much with my two hands.

Brandon Handley 18:36 Again, for those those are listening, you know, you had this business that you're just literally out of like your garage hammer now in between classes to get to kids and run life. Right. And you know, it's impossible to scale. Right without without kind of taking those next steps and as your book, and as you just stayed like I mean, you were getting you were getting some really nice publicity. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. demand was there. And so shark tanks, like, let's go.

Kiersten 19:09 Yeah, yeah. And they picked me which was great, because there are a lot of people that sign up for that show. And I mean, it was the second season of it. So I didn't have as much of a harder time getting on the show because it was still new. They weren't lining people up in stadiums auditioning them, I literally just had to film a you know, record a video and send it in and there you go. But I ended up on the show, I ended up I ended up kind of going through my own intuition. Listen on the show as well. Because being being someone who always was a people pleaser, her entire life and not quite understanding why I was that people pleaser. But I was and I was on the show and the producers are telling me to do one thing and I'm thinking, This doesn't feel right. And I need to do something different. You know, I really need to do that. But that's kind of Again, require me speaking up putting myself out there in saying, I'm not going to, I'm not going to take that advice. I'm going to go this route. And I'm really glad I did. Because I ended up getting two offers on the show. And it airs internationally, I still get messages from people all over the place that you know, watch it on Hulu. And that's just been incredible to have that. You know, that experience.

Brandon Handley 20:25 Just super cool. Yeah, I love I love it. Again, this is a bit out of the book, right? where you work, you work, you work on the speech, and you presentation, the pitch as it were. And then like, was it the day before night for you? Like, yeah, I'm not gonna do that. And everybody's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing? Man? That's such a bad idea. But also, you know, I think I don't know that we hit on it here so much. We did talk a little bit about, you know, we're, we talked about it that you are a marketing executive for a year. Yeah, this wasn't like, wasn't your first rodeo, right, given these pitches, and, you know, so you were just like, hey, what what we worked on, isn't in alignment with like, what it is that I'm doing, and you're like, I'm gonna go in, and be in alignment with what it is that I'm doing. And, you know, I've trained my entire life basically, for this, and I'm just gonna let let it kind of speak from the heart as well. Right?

Kiersten 21:19 Yeah. It had to be authentic to me, and I knew it wasn't. And so that was the impetus for me to say, You know what, I can't I can't do this. I have to kind of do it my way. And they fought me on it. But ultimately, when I got up on the stage, and you know, I, I did well, I remembered my tickets. I did well. And again, I got the two offers. And in you know, what's interesting about that shows, sometimes as you read those deals don't go through afterwards. And this is something that I did not know, I didn't understand. I

Brandon Handley 21:48 didn't know either until October. Yeah. Yeah.

Kiersten 21:51 It's kind of common, to be honest with you, unless you pair up if the sharks pair up. There's accountability. But I think sometimes they can decide that they don't want, you know, they don't want to go through with it. Maybe they got wrapped up in the moment. So that's what happened to me. That's what happened to me. Thankfully, Hulu airs Shark Tank episodes. And a true angel investor out of California, wrote to me and said, Did you get that deal? Because I would love to invest in your company. So I was able to actually get more money, and I gave away less equity.

Brandon Handley 22:24 That's awesome. That's awesome. So that kind of leads into the darkness. Yeah, so it's, it's been it's been quite, you know, it's been an uplifting journey up to this point, for the most part, right. But then, you know, here we go. You're traveling. You are working on G, you have gotten a potential spokesperson spot and working with the national international company.

Kiersten 22:57 They were most will they actually produced overseas, so they used to, but they were Yeah, big company. Very, very large company.

Brandon Handley 23:07 Right. So you get this, you get this job offer. And you're going to like close the deal. Determine a couple of final, you know, dot the i's cross the T's kind of thing. And then what happens?

Kiersten 23:21 Yeah, so here's the darkness coming in. So I want to back up for a tiny bit, just to say that, you know, what I started to notice as I was a medium kind of an undercover medium really is, you know, as I was growing my bomb, I was on Shark Tank, all that stuff was happening. So when you watch Shark Tank, and you see that all of the spirits stuff was happening behind the scenes with me, I was starting to notice that a lot of the kids that were coming in, had been sexually abused or murdered by pedophiles and predators. And I just thought to myself, That's really interesting. Like, I don't know why I'm honored that they're coming to me, and maybe it's because I'm a mom, but I don't necessarily know why they're coming to me. So with that, in the back of your mind, I then enter into a trade show where I am supposed to be meeting with, you know, a bunch of different TV networks and talking about Stanley and we I was about to sign a $5 million licensing deal with them. And I lost my job. They shut down their production of their use division. So the minute I land in North Carolina, I lose my job. So I'm, I'm basically in a perfect storm, which did not help things. So here I am, perfect storm, trying to figure out what am I going to do? My husband wasn't making enough money at that point because I was the main breadwinner. So I stayed I tried to figure things out because I knew maybe if I stayed and I worked hard enough, and I got a lot of meetings, I could get a different, you know, a different licensing deal. Unfortunately, I ended up meeting a man named Tony at that at that event, and Tony walked in and kind of knowing a lot about me, but I did And realize that he knew as much as he did about me. And he just swept me off my feet. I wasn't planning on any of that. It was not something, you know, we had my my husband, Scott and I are obviously we're having issues in our marriage and marriage is hard. I mean, you're married, right? It can be hard. Yes. But,

Brandon Handley 25:21 yeah, it's a relationship. I think any, any, like, ongoing long term relationship is hard, then, you know, couple that with, you know, you spend all your time with each other, right, you know,

Kiersten 25:35 in job loss and what I was going, yeah, the afterlife. And so, you know, at that point, I started to connect the dots, I started to actually have visions of myself being abused by my uncle, when I was between the ages of three and six. And I ended up finding out that I was raped by him at five. I don't have a lot of memory of my childhood. So I was I was sort of looking back and putting all the pieces together, because that's, you know, that's what you do. Had I not had the mediumship base and the validation and working with cops and detectives across the country, I wouldn't have believed what I saw. Right. So I truly knew that what that's why they were coming to me. So I found that out right before I went down to what they call market, and when I met Tony, so that was the full spectrum to give you the phone.

Brandon Handley 26:26 Yeah, that's important. For sure.

Kiersten 26:29 Yeah. So Tony ended up sweeping me off my feet. In looking back now, it was absolutely, you know, it's sort of a handbook that the narcissist has the sociopaths has. And he followed it to a tee. He, he was able to know enough about me in order to sort of pull me in. And I let him right. And I think this is where, you know, I was thinking, Oh, my gosh, I this this man is amazing. I am having all the chills, I'm having everything that you would have, you know, from an intuitive standpoint to you know, our marriage has been really hard. And I'm done. I'm done. Right now, that was a week after meeting him. So I'm already not acting like the old Kiersten, I'm already in a different headspace, but not understanding that I am. So that led me down a road of three years of abuse, narcissistic abuse, financial abuse, emotional abuse, it was getting to physical abuse.

Brandon Handley 27:33 And one of the pieces to like, you know, I think it makes sense to to say, hey, you know, here's this guy, Tony comes in and sweeps you off your feet, not only like, you know, was he had the, you know, this type of guy, but he was in the industry that you were in, offered support came in, I remember this, you took charge, like, yes, you felt like, you know, this was something you need in your life, this was the help you needed to get through and into the next steps. And, you know, there was a bunch of other stuff that you know, you know, I think as any relationship goes on, you're like, this is, this has been nice to have somebody give me this kind of attention and be in this space. And it just kind of, you know, it all took took in, you know, and it was all pretty rapid, right? In this book. And you're like, you're like, you know what, like I said, I'm out and you go into this relationship of like, you know, you're in, I think, you know, the relationship and who wasn't a scar, or like one of the somebody calls out, you know, you'll have your first argument, like six months, and you're still like, yeah, right. And yeah, that happened, right? Like, I mean, right around that period.

Kiersten 28:42 Yes. It was interesting was around four months, I think when I started to actually recognize, like, This doesn't feel right. And that's another reason I wrote the book because my intuition I couldn't, I couldn't think it or feel it through my head or my heart, but my body could feel it. And so I was starting to get all kinds of weird body signals that something was off even though you know, I, I am stubborn, I was driven. This is right for me. Use of relationships. It's not all bad. That's the thing, right? It's not all bad all the time. There's, it's the cycle of abuse that you get trapped in. So I ended up, I ended up finally, you know, feeling around the four month mark that something wasn't right here because he started to talk about my eye contact with other men. He was kind of questioning things. But being a person that is very introspective and always goes and looks inside says oh, yeah, maybe I could have done that better. Or maybe. Yeah, that's that's how I operate. So that's what I did.

Brandon Handley 29:48 Yeah. And, you know, you talk about the cycle. And it's funny, I read a actually listen to an article a few years back talking about neuropeptides, right, that just says hey, what you Going through was like the, you know, heightened like affectionate, right? You've got the highs of affection. But then you also have these highs of like, oh shit, you know what is going on here and like this kind of like this dislike, you know, I wouldn't call it paranoia but like you're just gonna, you're in a heightened state of like awareness defensiveness and like fight or flight at all times, right and so yes,

Kiersten 30:25 yes. So I was not used to that your body,

Brandon Handley 30:29 right with those neuro peptides, it's like it's an injection of energy and your body doesn't discern like, Oh, that's good energy I want more of that. It's just addicted to the energy, whatever energy it is bad energy. Oh yeah, it's just energy. Give me more of that. So that's where you found yourself was like in this in this wave of after wave it feels good I want more of that. Oh shit, I guess I want more of that. Right like yeah,

Kiersten 30:59 no you don't. And that's what's so impossible for abuse survivors because I think in our society we shame survivors a lot and we say well, why didn't you leave sooner? You know instead of saying well why are they the way they are. And for me the key was understanding the intuitive hits I was getting to from the body, that from my body, like I was having buzzing sensation on my right hip anytime he would yell at me. Now, now that I'm out of the relationship and have been since 2017, I don't have that anymore. You know. So it was really interesting to pair that with the fact that I also was starting to understand the cycle that I was stuck in from the dopamine highs and, you know, the neuro, the bio chemicals, I guess that were like you were talking about? I didn't know that nobody talked about that was me. I had no clue. I was addicted to it, you know? Yeah.

Brandon Handley 31:53 I mean, I don't I don't think that, uh, you know, I don't think those are new a newer findings and people, you know, like, you just got to work the relationship out. Right, right. Yeah. Like, like hell I do. Um, so. But I think one of the things to just kind of important here is that, you know, you had what was the guy's name? Jason right, that said, hey, you know, yeah, hey, this relationship, go through with it. And you're like, Okay, you know, everything felt right and aligned. And then, at the same time, like later, you know, same same guys. All right, yeah. It's time to check out. Right? Yeah.

Kiersten 32:28 Yeah, it's interesting, you know, from the Spirit side, right. So what I was starting to finally understand by the end of the relationship, by the time I was ready to get a restraining order, it was that bad. Jason was coming in. He was 23, when he died of a heroin overdose. He has been with me throughout all of this, he was the one saying, Go get the restraining order now. Really helping me, you know, from the other side, he was the first one to say he's your drug. And he understood that as an addict, right? Sure. So there was a lot. There were those pieces, right? So he's there sort of saying, Yes, this is all feeling very, very big and very, very, like intense, because we had to hit you over the head with it. Because I don't think to be honest with you, I would be where I am now. And I know my husband and I would not be where we are now had I not gone through this. And and then later on, as you read in the book, Jesus and came back in and said, you know, this was this piece of your life was planned before your birth, like you could not have avoided them. And I had definitely had some I had free Well, I could have done things differently. But I think that's what I've, you know, I honestly feel that in my soul, because I wouldn't be able to tell the story. No and

Brandon Handley 33:47 right, like, you know, and it was part of your healing journey, right? You might not have uncovered some of the stuff that you did to become who you are. And nobody's going to recommend and you certainly aren't recommending Hey, go find yourself a you know, an abusive relationship so that you can heal but this was your was your journey. Right? I think another thing that was kind of interesting, as you talked about this, was that this fear spirits didn't reach out to you as often during that period of the relationship. What do you what do you think that was? What was going on there?

Kiersten 34:22 It was too dark. It was too dark. You know, I was living with a man who had no conscience operated off of just whatever his ego wanted, you know, was horribly abusive. So those children you know, and and I eventually found out he was a predator you know, with with countless women and teenage teenager that I know of at least one, so they're gonna back away. Now my core crew of kids that have been around me and with me for a long time, like Nate and Carrie and Jason, they stuck with me But the rest of them were sort of waiting in the wings for me to get out of it. But it was up to me to do that, you know, and I think that's what's so interesting about that journey is figuring out, you know, what would have happened, if I stayed, I would have died, I have no doubt about no doubt about that, I was told that I would have died, either by his hand or by my own because I was locked in such an abusive situation I was hurt, my hair was falling out. My body was completely out of whack. I was smoking to try and to cope with all of it, you know, it was just such a mess. And I know so many people find themselves in that is heartbreaking.

Brandon Handley 35:43 Absolutely. Look, it's no good for anybody to be in that situation. You know, my mom left an abusive relationship, several, that's, you know, my father was locked away because of that, you know, going up so, so I understand, you know, kind of the toll it can take, and then you know, you know, how, how it impacts others, right. And in some way, shape or other one of the other things too, is that, you know, so you've got Mom mom working, like before you go into this relationship, like, you know, things are like, they're decent, right? Yeah, you're hitting, you're hitting snags, right? Tony's like, hey, I can help you with this stuff. Because, you know, he had a, you know, at least what you thought was a credible name in the industry and all this stuff. So whatever happened mod mom throughout all this.

Kiersten 36:31 So my mom ended up I mean, it's still going today, which is great. I actually didn't have a manufacturer. But it was interesting to watch. Because I, what I saw myself do was sort of push it aside, once I lost that deal. Then it became about his line, or furniture. And so at that point, I'm thinking, Oh, my gosh, I believe in him, he's gonna help me, let's go ahead and just pour everything into his line. And then we can come back to mod mom. So I literally put it on the back burner for many years. And after I got out of the relationship, it started to soar again, literally, like within the first week that I was out, I got a I was reached out to by a manufacturer, who said, Are you looking for, you know, a licensing deal? And so it's just testament to energy? Right, the heaviness darker and?

Brandon Handley 37:22 Yeah, well, I just, you know, I guess I'm just trying to highlight, you know, the, the, and even during that time, like everything Tony was working on was, you know, kind of turned into shit. Like, for lack of better terminology. It wasn't working out. Right. It was

Kiersten 37:35 Turner's Yep.

Brandon Handley 37:36 So, and I highlight this to simply because I'm aware that you know, you're back online, you're back on track, and you're doing well, and things are in a positive space. But I think that if we take a look at it all right, is the whole idea of being in alignment with the truth of who you are following your intuition. And kind of paying attention to it. And when everything's in alignment, and you're being true to who you are things work out, it's weird, right? You're like, yeah, I don't I don't get it. But you know, here it is, it's working. And I just wanted to highlight those two pieces, because there's a justification in the book, like everything, everything's a mess. And as soon as you kind of step out of it, and you realize it, and it has to do with like the energy that you're, you either you're around or coursing through your insides match your outsides is what they say.

Kiersten 38:30 Absolutely, yeah. And I, you know, I wasn't being I wasn't being abused anymore. And I was, I was literally able to heal little KEARSON, because I stood up for her by standing up to him and saying, No, I'm done with us. And I was, I'm one of the only women that he has done this to that can be vocal about it.

Brandon Handley 38:51 He's got a platform, you got a platform you're capable to. I mean, I think that, you know, a lot of people might give marketing a bad stick, but like you're capable, you know, how to tell the story in order to evoke the emotion, not that you have to because you live it, but like, you know, hey, listen, this is this is real. Right, I can tell a story and, you know, share it. So I think that's important, too. Again, these are all the parts of view that came together so that, you know, you could a expose this guy to others be, you know, share your story with others in a way that they understand like, again, you know, if it cures, not to say that any drug addict deserves to get like, you know, treated the way that you were in a situation, but if it did come from a drug addict, maybe it's she shouldn't have been doing drugs.

Kiersten 39:38 Yeah, maybe I know,

Brandon Handley 39:40 or Yeah. So the background allows for for credibility.

Kiersten 39:47 Absolutely. And I think, you know, the other side of it is that I hadn't heard the term wounded attachment. I had never heard of that. Even when I was in therapy after I got out of the relationship and I was still you know, trying to put my My life back together and figure out how did I get here? It wasn't something that was known to me. And that is another reason why I wrote the book. And I wanted to tell the story, because wounded attachment is the is the subconscious way of attracting or being attracted to wounds that happened in childhood. So for me what I didn't What I didn't equate was that my uncle was very much like Tony. And I literally replicated that type of abuse as an adult, because little Kiersten was the subconscious driver of that plus, and, you know, 80% of our behavior is driven by our subconscious is so you know, just even learning that piece of this, you know, even without the intuition was so impactful for me, and powerful.

Brandon Handley 40:47 Now powerful journey, powerful journey. So my mom's on what's the organization? Here's the

Kiersten 40:57 National Institute for law, injustice. That's another

Brandon Handley 41:01 one. So you've got like, hit on that one real quick for us. So what was the sir? Yeah, what, what's involved there?

Kiersten 41:07 So one of the detectives that I worked with across the country over the last 10 years, his name is Mark Pucci. And he actually wrote the foreword for the book, he and I co founded a nonprofit, it's a 501 C three, and it's called the National Institute for law injustice, and we help families of crime victims at no cost. Because what we are finding, you know, a lot of the cases I worked on involve missing persons involve homicide, you know, that is, maybe it's a suicide, but it's actually homicide, that type of thing. And he has worked on a lot of those cases, too, as an NYPD retired detective. So basically, we said, let's do this, let's make it so it's not so freakin expensive for the families. Let's try and take that burden off of them and see what we can do. And we're gonna band together, everybody we know. So we're bringing in cold case, detectives, we're bringing in, you know, anyone and everyone that we know is credible. And that has volunteered to work with us.

Brandon Handley 42:07 That's pretty awesome. I love that. And then you've got another one where you are helping others, children with sensitivities. So yeah,

Kiersten 42:17 it's, it's not really an organization. It's just something I do. And I have found, you know, in my life, I clearly have been guided to many people, sometimes for hard lessons, sometimes for great stuff. But in this case, I feel like the parents of these children who are highly, highly intuitive find me. Sometimes I know them, sometimes I don't. And I literally just try and and to show them, you know, here's what worked for me, here's how you can create boundaries. Like if you're feeling overwhelmed, you can write a whole list of rules, like I will not be woken up at night, you know, it's a lot about using your own power to deal with being highly, highly intuitive. Because, I mean, it was scary as hell as a 36 year old, I can't even imagine, you know, I don't remember that. I know what happened to me when I was a little kid. But I don't remember that. And I wanted to help those kids get through that.

Brandon Handley 43:11 Now. That's pretty awesome, too. Got friends, my wife included, who know sensitive at an early age, but don't or didn't have the resources to you know, talk to someone about it in a supportive fashion versus Oh, you didn't say anything? You didn't hear anything? Yeah, right type of thing. So I think that's a really cool service that you're done. So, books awesome. I enjoyed it. I certainly recommend it. You know, like I said, it's definitely been binge ready, readable? I've never, I saw that somebody else wrote it. And I was like, No, it's true, but it was bingeable That's what it was. But visible. There it is. So we are on a little spot that I always like to call like, kind of spiritual speed dating. Shearson like, you know, somebody's gonna pop in here and they're gonna be like, like, maybe Pearson's my next spiritual speed date. This one works. This works for me, I think, yeah, I pull out of 20 questions. So spiritual Bachelorette number one, why is there poverty and suffering in the world?

Kiersten 44:20 Oh, my gosh, you picked a big one. Okay, so this is where I'm going to be very honest, and claim that I really don't know everything. I don't know everything. You know, I know my little piece of the world. I know that I can communicate with these kids. They pass information. We help get answers and we help connect families. I think the poverty and strife and all of that. I don't have an answer for it. I wish that I did. Like it's similar to I don't really have an answer for why kids die. You know, why? Why is this happening? I do feel like there are some things like in my life right now. that were planned before my birth, my soul said, I'm coming in, and I'm going to learn these things. Patience is one of them. I know that in my life. I know that, but I don't I really don't know. So that's not you know, I don't have an answer for you on that one.

Brandon Handley 45:18 Oh, good. I mean, if it was me, and I'm talking to you, and I am that I would say, you know, I think in the suffering aspect of this, as we look at your story, yours was to kind of guide you through something where, at the time, the suffering socked right, it was awful. Yeah. But the end result? Was something beneficial.

Kiersten 45:44 Absolutely. And I will say, you know, some of the kids that are some of the parents of the children who have passed on, have started foundations, and they've started nonprofits that help others. And so I can see how that, you know, does benefit it helps us grow, right, as a society, and humanity, it helps to sort of elevate, but I wish Yeah, I wish I had a better answer for you. But that's that's how

Brandon Handley 46:09 it works. Right? It works. Doo doo. Sure, one wish for the world.

Kiersten 46:17 Oh, my gosh, one wish for all? I honestly wished. You know, it's very similar to that. And I don't know if it was Gandhi who said this. I can't remember who said it. But, you know, if if we all meditated, right, we would have a completely different world. Like, if we all had that mindset, I'm not big on meditation, to be honest with you. And I'm to add for that, however, I understand it's just tapping into that, you know, to that inner knowing and so the universe and understanding that we're all connected, and how we treat others, whether we're here or in another continent, it has a ripple effect. And that's what I wish I wish that that that was something that was could become more known, I guess,

Brandon Handley 46:59 for sure. I love it. This one is not out of my question bank, but if you continue to go the way you're going now, how long is it gonna take for Phoenix to move you to Sedona?

Kiersten 47:10 Okay, so funny enough. Yeah, you know, we lived in Flagstaff, we were 45 minutes from Sedona and we would go down there and visit all the time. I love Sedona Sedona it's not really my bag. It's not my bocce

Brandon Handley 47:22 too crunchy. I gotta do it. Kristen, is there anything else that you want to share with the group? Where can we send people to find you? What's next? Oh, sure.

Kiersten 47:33 Yeah. So Kiersten half cocked.com, you can find all kinds of good information. I'm in the middle of book touring at this point, because the book just came out. The audio book will be coming out October 18. And, yeah, I'm excited too. We actually sat down my husband, Scott, and I sat down with the audio engineer, and Nick and we talked about what happened during the recording, which is kind of cool to get the back. Yeah, the backstory. So I'll be giving that out to to anybody that buys the audio book.

Brandon Handley 48:03 That's cool. I always I always appreciate that. Will the book tour be listed on your like, we're

Kiersten 48:12 going Yes, yes, it is on my website under Events. And so you'll you'll see right now, I'm actually going back to my hometown in defiance Ohio, shout out to the fine. We're gonna do that November.

Brandon Handley 48:26 One of the things I'll call out about the book that I thought was pretty interesting is this isn't spiritual memoir. It's not easy to get this published. This is a published book. This is not a self published piece. And, you know, congratulations on that as well.

Kiersten 48:38 Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, that was a journey in itself. Thank you so much.

Brandon Handley 48:42 I appreciate very cool. KEARSON. Thanks again for being on today.

Kiersten 48:45 Thank you. I appreciate it. Brandon. Take care. Absolutely. I

Intro Guy 48:48 really hope you enjoyed this episode of the spiritual dove podcast. Stay connected with us directly through spiritual dove Dotco. You can also join the discussion on Facebook, spiritual and Instagram and spiritual underscore Joe. If you would like to speak with us, send us an email Brandon at spiritual dove.co And as always, thank you for cultivating your mindset and creating a better reality. This includes the most thought provoking part of your day. Don't forget to like and subscribe to stay fully up to date. Until next time, be kind to yourself and trust your intuition.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Jen Gilchrist, Speaker + Transformational Success Mentor + Spiritual Teacher An Entrepreneur for 22 years and a Spiritual Mentor for 11 years, Jen Gilchrist has gone from Struggling Single Mom to growing a multiple 6-figure Business making money doing what she loves and empowering others to do the same. She works with "Highly Sensitive" and Spiritual Entrepreneurs on a deep level, helping them to reclaim the confidence, trust, and tools needed to harness their intuition, align with their purpose and step into their next level of leadership in their business and life, so they make a bigger impact in the world while experiencing new levels of freedom of time, energy and money in their purpose-driven business.

Connect with Jen here:

www.soulsuccessunleashed.com

Jen's message is around believing in yourself. 1:31 What was the catalyst that led you to become a psychic? 8:38 The pain and emptiness of not fulfilling your purpose. 15:22 Why you can't lead with spirituality, you can lead with straight transformation. 21:45 You have to be your own authority -. 25:47 Cultivating a connection with your spiritual support team and trusting your intuition. 29:59 The importance of listening to your intuition and being open to miracles. 34:40 Be honest with yourself about the fear that is holding you back. 37:12 The importance of having a network of support. 42:11 How to bring awareness to your breath and body. 46:32 How do you get into the present moment? 49:17 What is your one wish for the world? 53:02

Intro Guy 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general appear so limited? Thought Process? Rest assured, you are not alone. The world is slowly waking up to what you already no inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the question you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world the people in it? Most importantly, how do I proceed? Now moving forward? We don't even have all the answers, but we sure do love living in the question some time for another spiritual day with your host, Brandon Handley. Let's get right into today's episode.

Brandon Handley 0:43 Spiritual dope. I'm on here today with Jen Gilchrist. She is a speaker and transformational success mentor and spiritual teacher. As an entrepreneur for 22 years as a spiritual mentor for 11 years, Jen has gone from struggling single mom to growing multiple, six figure businesses making money doing what she loves, and empowering others to do the same. She works with highly sensitive and spiritual entrepreneurs on a deep level, helping them to reclaim the confidence, trust and tools needed to harness their intuition, align with their purpose and step into their next level of leadership in their business and life. So they make a bigger impact in the world while experiencing new levels of freedom, time, energy and money and their purpose driven business. Shannon, thanks for being on today. How are you?

Jen Gilchrist 1:31 I'm wonderful. Thanks for having me. Very excited to be here.

Brandon Handley 1:34 I'll tell you what was kind of funny, Jen is like, I forget exactly how we connected. But it was a while ago, first of all been a while since you're already talking to beginning here. But I got a second outreach from I think your agency or whoever you're working with. I was like, well, that's funny. But I'm talking to her this week that like, Would you be interested in that app. So I'm still interested in we're still doing it. But you know, it's kind of like one of those things where I guess it's a fit, right? So thanks for being on. Typically like to start off with the whole idea that you and I were vessels for source energy, as it were, and this conversation while you and I will have our dialogue, and I'm sure we'll come away with something amazing and great. There's going to be somebody else tuning in, that's really going to resonate with your message. And it can only be delivered through you at this time on this podcast. So that person, what's that message.

Jen Gilchrist 2:35 The message is coming through for your audience is is around believing in yourself. It's about having that that ultimate trust and belief in yourself and your vision and your dream. And to know that you are worthy of what it is that you desire. And what it is you see for yourself and that you don't have to do it all. So reach outside about tuning into that trusting yourself trusting the process and trusting your spiritual support to see you through.

Brandon Handley 3:00 I think that's a big piece of love the message, a big piece of I guess ourselves as humans, is trying to do it all ourselves. Right? When you say you don't do it all yourself? Are you talking about like, spiritual assistance or just from other people? Like, what are you? How do you like to look at that?

Unknown Speaker 3:24 I think it's both really, um, when I was speaking to that message, it was feeling more about tuning in and really working with your spiritual support, right? Meaning connecting with your higher self with your angels, your guides, source, like utilizing that larger part of who you are to be a guidance for you. That's something that I believe in a lot. It's helped me a lot in my life and my business, for sure. But also, I think that also extends to the physical world, you know, oftentimes, we try to do it all as solopreneurs, you know, and at a certain point, it's difficult to manifest or create the business with the vision that you might have if you're trying to do it all on your own. And so just allowing that support in as well be it a virtual assistant or your team, there might be a time and place where you need to actually allow some physical support in but definitely having that spiritual support being your driving factor to help you figure out the how, for sure, for sure, I find that people have a big vision and then it gets so overwhelming, like how am I going to do this, that they either don't stop, they don't start it to begin with, or they start but they stay kind of stuck playing small, because they're not allowing that support. And so I think that that is something to to really lean into.

Brandon Handley 4:30 For sure. I would love you to talk about this. I mean, let's talk about this too. One thing that I think I find frustrating in this entrepreneur I'm gonna coach you space is you didn't get here like overnight. Right? You had successful businesses and you were successful in business before coming into the spiritual space, and you've flourished through that as well but like you know, where were you Before now and like how did you get to where you are?

Jen Gilchrist 5:03 Definitely I like to say my life is now a spiritual retreat. And what I mean by that is I feel like, you know, massages, Zumba meditation, you know, for six years in a row I've swam, it's wild dolphins, you know, it is a way to, to rejuvenate myself and find that balance. And I do believe that now that you know, the balance of really that divinity, and that actionable action in life together create sustainable success, and it definitely wasn't always that way for me. By the age of 30, I was on that hamster wheels of society's version of success. You know, I was wearing all the hats, I was a single mom, I had built a six figure business doing hair and makeup by the time I was in my 20s, actually, but my first home when I was 30. And I was like on the outside of society's version of things I looked put together, things were amazing. But on the inside, I was extremely overwhelmed. I had no way to manage my stress, but wine and chocolate was tended to be what I would go towards. And eventually, you know, that caught up with me, that lifestyle caught up with me. I had been a verta friend's birthday party, it's been about 12 or 13 years now that I was at my friend's birthday celebrating her party and had a couple glasses of wine. Next thing you know, I was on my way home. And I ended up rolling my car, looking at twice ending in a ditch. And it was really at this crashing moment that everything came to a halt. And I realized that I couldn't go on this way couldn't be so frazzled, I couldn't have wine be the only way to like de stress my mind. But I was really afraid at that time. Because I didn't have any other idea how to do life, like how to do life without this. And so I was very afraid. And I had a lot of shame at that time around everything, of course, because we're putting up that facade to the world that it's all great. You know, but on the inside, I was feeling you know, how am I going to do this differently? Well, that's when everything really changed. For me, I prayed I didn't know what to do. But I just prayed to be at peace and to be happy. Because at that time, though, on the outside, everything looks great. It's like I had relationships that were toxic. I had my bank account money was coming in, but it was going right back out. And everything, you know, was really just a shambles. And so I prayed. And my grandfather came to me in a dream. And it was really special. He had been like my anchor point really for the whole family. And he died when I was about 10. And so at this time for him to come to me so viscerally in the stream. I just remember feeling his presence and him showing me that I wasn't alone in this world that I might have all these things going off and, you know, problems to fix and relationships that were going awry, and all the things but that I wasn't actually alone and that he was there God, the angels universe, you know, was there to support me. And I remember waking up from that dream, feeling like, wow, you know, I don't have all the answers. But I had this sense of peace and hope in my heart that I had never felt before. And I knew that everything was going to be okay. And it was at that point that I started to really just have the synchronicities. I wouldn't have had that language for it. At the time, I was raised in a very conservative Christian upbringing. But I started to have these synchronicities that were guiding me to like every self help book, I probably spent the next nine months reading every self help book imaginable. And before you know it, I just my intuition opened up when I started becoming aware of the spiritual side of things, my angels, my guides, and I started really going on this quest, and I realized that, you know, everything was going to be okay. And this is really a big turning point for me in my in my life at that time.

Brandon Handley 8:38 So he had like, this kind of awakening moment, right? You know, predicated by the roll in the car, right? I mean, that's definitely a wake up call. Right? Like, you're like, I can't continue to live this way. You got a whole bunch of shame kind of definitely tied up in that too, right? Because like it was, are we gonna think, you know, I'm trying to do this thing and keep it all together, but I'm a mess. I saw really great. We live in memes these days, don't we? It was a meme just kind of talking about, like, you know, the life that we're living now, like, trying to do it all by ourselves, like, we have, we still literally have health, right? Like, I mean, there were, you know, even even in the industrial age, we would have somebody else in the house helping us keep it together, right there was paid paid out. Right. And now we're just trying to do it by ourselves. And as to keep up this, I got it all together and I can do this thing and it's a lot and having a single mother myself growing up. It's too much right? To try and just keep together. So you go through all that. And then you're having these revelations I love that you connected with like your spirit guides, as it were right angels, your grandfather and somebody come in there to help you and you're, you're coming out and you decide to kind of embrace this right now. and move forward into this space. And tell me a little bit about like, what that look like, what was the catalyst there? So you've got this hair and makeup businesses you've been doing. But now you're like, feeling it? And you're like, I want to lean into it. But I don't like you, like you said to like, you didn't even have the language or like know what it was. Right? So yeah, talk to me a little bit about that.

Jen Gilchrist 10:23 Yeah, so it was kind of like this point where now I was awakened, right. And I, and I was excited about that. But then I was also pretty much awake in the dark, I hadn't remember going to my first psychic reading. And at that point, I didn't know if I believed in psychics, but a friend of mine said goes this lady, you know, she was really great. And she told me that I would be doing what she was doing in five years. And I'm like, but that sounds cool. But I can't imagine I'm barely even, you know, carrying my grandparents talk to me. So I went on this quest, and really got clear that my deeper inner calling was, in fact to help other people awaken their purpose and their spiritual gifts. And so I created a second, a second business, I was still doing my hair and makeup business, of course, full time. But I began a second business called divine spark within, which was my first iteration of my spiritual work. And it really never took off. And there was two big reasons for that. And one of them I feel was that although I was awakened, I was in the spiritual closet big time. I mean, heaven forbid, my family, my wedding professional friends, my hair clients, or anybody would know about this newly awakened psychic healer, past life, mediumship, angel card reading self, it was like, No way. So I had this really compartmentalised in my life. And the second reason was, I was extremely petrified of public speaking. So much so that I convinced all of my high school teachers to actually let me do all of my oral reports, before or after school, when I was this quiet on her students, they let me do it. I didn't even join a networking group for two years, because I had to stand up and say, like, 30 seconds of my name, even though I knew it would grow my business, like I was petrified. And so

Brandon Handley 11:59 let me jump in there real quick. Let me jump in there real quick, because this is so funny. I had to do a stand in for BNI, this paddling at networking business networking group this past weekend, and like, I've been really trying to promote myself, but I didn't really have anything else to say. So I was like, Yeah, I'm doing you know, spiritual coaching, whatever and like, but just like you're saying, I was like, the 30 seconds. I'm like, listen, just give, you're just giving references to Dave, I'm just filling in for him. I'm just here for the breakfast. I'm good. But I totally understand what you're saying.

Jen Gilchrist 12:30 Yeah, for sure. Especially, I think, you know, it was the two aspects of it that was keeping you really hidden and small and, and it got really clear that this was keeping me hidden in small my business, right, these visibility fears, this fear of public speaking, my my compartmentalization of my spiritual path, and all those things. But of course, God has a funny sense of humor. And the next thing, you know, I find myself at a conference for attracting clients and like, Well, yeah, that's what I need, I need to attract clients. And so the next thing I know that we're talking about speaking, to attract clients, and I'm like, Oh, of course, right. And I, and I remember, you know, feeling this pain of emptiness of not getting my message out. But I was arguing with my angels. I was like, Why, like, there's no way like, that's in the future. I saw this vision of speaking on stages and writing books, but I'm like, that's way down the road. And my angels were like, wow, you know, are you sure? Because I mean, you could make it down the road. And that's when I realized that I was fighting for my fears. When I was arguing with my angels, I realized, so

Brandon Handley 13:28 what's, what's this? It's like that Marianne Williamson line, right? Or, you know, I'm not sure if you're an Abraham Hicks fan. You know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sit here and argue for your limitations, right? There you are kind of like, you're basically arguing for your limitations. In that sense. Yeah.

Jen Gilchrist 13:45 And that kind of caught myself, right. And I called myself out on it. And I took myself outside because here I was in this room of like, 300, other highly sensitive, empathic people trying to make this big decision about money and investing in their business. And I, you know, I've never done that much before. And so here it was, and I took myself outside and I walked myself through a practice that I could perhaps share with you later, but it was the TLC body meditation that I use with my clients, talk to your body, listen to your body, and commit to this needs. And so I tuned in and I just thought, okay, is this really aligned for me? Like, what is my best aligned step? Because I knew I was triggered in a lot of fear about the financial investment about having to speak, you know, all these things. And so I got really clear that, you know, the pain and emptiness of not filling my purpose was bigger than my fear of public speaking. And so I ended up, you know, tuning into the fact that I also learned that my listen to my mind and logic, fear will stop me versus my heart. I can feel that intuition and trust and leap. And so I leaned into that, and I did that. I went ahead and I signed up for basically it was a $22,000 investment at that time was a lot for me. I didn't even have my mortgage payment in the bank account, so I couldn't use it as an excuse, you know, and I'm not going how am I going to pay for 22 months but I've been working with my angels long enough to know that I'm always supported in this way. And so I leaned in, and I decided to listen to that to that voice inside of me and not put it off any longer face those fears head on. And now I get to be here sharing with all of you and all of your community and people like this, which I love, supporting others to really know, their conscious creative power themselves and to feel, you know, unstoppable and whatever it is that they're feeling called to do. So that's

Brandon Handley 15:22 literally into like the other a couple of other pieces to like. Taking that time to review and inspect your life, and it resonates with me so hard, the pain and emptiness of not fulfilling your purpose, right? That's just like, a gut punch. Right? Because I still remember I saw my first investment in like, coaching, it was substantial, right? And it was into, like, the podcast, Robin doing it. And my wife and I did not agree on it initially, like that, that was going to be a good idea. Right? And I just sank, right, like, I just felt like, MTT. And, you know, we turn that around later. And, you know, again, you know, it's not like, I started to, I started to, you know, just find out, okay, she was right in from her perspective as like, you're right. I agree with you. Listen, I wanted to appreciate the way she was approaching it right? At the same time, like, you know, it took me a minute to get there. And then as soon as I kind of got there myself mentally, and I'm okay with it. She's like, No, go ahead and go do it, you got to do it. But like, you know, that pain and emptiness of not fulfilling your purpose? Like, that's huge. Right? So that's, my guess, is what said to you, like, you know, what, I'm gonna do a substantial investment 22k I'm gonna go ahead and go do that. I mean, who were you talking to about that when you did it? Or should you just do it? And then later told people like, you know, when you decided to make this big change? You know, how did that go over? How'd you accomplish that?

Jen Gilchrist 17:11 Well, I definitely did it on my own. I was still somewhat compartmentalize, you know, I kind of this is coming out of the spiritual closet was like an evolutionary journey. Up to this point, by the time I went to that conference and invested it, it was about five years after, or maybe, no, I guess it's about three years after I first started my divine spark within business. That didn't work too well. Right. And I recognize that a lot of my fear about signing up. If I took money out of the equation, I tended to myself and my body. And then of course, my guys, but more it was about what am I actually feeling here? Am I afraid of moving through my comfort zone? Or is it that it's misaligned? And so in that moment, I realized that it was really moving to my comfort zone, like I was afraid if money wasn't an object, would I show up for what I owe? Now I would actually have to speak if I do this program. Well, now we'll actually have to go on stages, I'll have to actually get up in front of people, my family will actually know about my spiritual work, if I get big, and I actually write a book, you know, like, how can I deal with that. And so I really did have to lean into filling that fear and then doing it anyways. And so to me, it's was an unfolding process that that was a big stake in the claim, a big investment. And then it continued to have me lean into my fears, and feel my fears and work through my fears, at different steps along my journey, for sure, in order to really just keep showing up for myself and not put other people's opinions or judgments, or fear of what their judgments might be above what it is, I knew in my heart, I was feeling called to do, just really getting that to that place of not needing other people's approval, in order to follow what I need to be right for me. And that was that took some time, you know, it's something that's, you know, an evolutionary day by day choice that I continued to choose. And, and my parents, you know, they don't, they don't, and I love what you said about you and your wife, too. It's like, when you had that internal fear and resistance, in some ways you are met with it. And that was sort of the same with me and my family, you know, they were raised very much in a Christian upbringing. So they, they were really afraid, at first about, oh, the devil is tricking you, or we know, whatever their religious programming was around it, like seriously, that was this way and I love my family, we're close. And so that was hard. And I think that kept me sort of wanting to keep it small and hidden and separate for a long time. But eventually, once I got okay with not having to meet their judgment with judging them or not having to need their approval, and I did that in our work on myself, it really dissolved. It's like, here we are, I see them all the time. Now my business is flourishing, and I'm not hiding it per se. But at the same time, it's you know, I don't feel

Brandon Handley 19:42 like was, I'm not hiding it per se, like, what's that? I mean?

Jen Gilchrist 19:47 No, I, we it's not like we're our topic of conversation. They know, this is my full time work for sure. 100%. But what I was, what I was gonna say is it's not like the topic of every dinner table conversation because it's not something that we relate on exactly, but it's an longer that before I was hiding it, right, which triggered this bubble of resistance. And as soon as I got over the need to hide it, and I just let that dissolve because it was okay, whatever their opinion, wasn't it, it didn't have to mean anything about me or our relationship, if they didn't approve, when I let that part go. I wasn't that without resistance from them anymore. I mean, it's not going to ever be something that's our favorite topic of choice, because it's not their interest, but it doesn't get in the way anymore. Does that make sense?

Brandon Handley 20:32 Yeah, let's talk about to like, how, how does your business open up after you let go that, like, tell me a bit about that?

Jen Gilchrist 20:42 Well, in so many ways, right? Because I think that fear of public speaking was a big one. Because, you know, then I began doing videos, I started learning, I learned that I love doing videos, I love teaching online. You know, I began to accept podcasts, interviews, you know, I allowed myself as soon as I got out of just trying to compartmentalize and control who knew what about what's in my life, as soon as I let myself just be more integrated, and I'll parts of me coming in, and all areas of my life and business. That's when opportunities started coming in. I wasn't blocking them anymore, through my fears. Instead, you know, opportunities of podcasts of speaking of, you know, teaching larger group programs, having higher exposures, more people showing up to my workshops, all of those things began to happen. When I began to shed my visibility fears, because that was literally cloaking me from the people that I was meant to serve. It might have stopped me from having people it didn't want to know about my business. I've got it. But it also stopped me from having my people find me. So now I can be seen at a much larger level and make a much bigger impact. For

Brandon Handley 21:45 sure. No, and I asked that because similar process on this end, right. I had a spiritual kind of awakening scenario. And then I wanted to do, I wanted to share all that stuff out. But I wanted to, I did it by leveraging the, some what they want, give them what they need. So my first one was called, like, prosperity practice, right? Where it's like, let's talk about getting new money making successful there. But I knew like that I still wasn't sharing the truth of the message. And then, and I had, like, it was just kind of there was almost like this resistance that you're talking about, right? And there's just kind of like, some type of ethereal friction, as it were, right? And as soon as, as soon as I flipped over and a spiritual dope, like, it just opened up, right? Just like, and I was, like, you know what, I'm just gonna leave a spirituality. And I was like, but I also get, you know, my, when my wife told my inlaws, I was doing a podcast on spiritual I was like, What are you doing? Like, they don't care, they're not interested. And some other stuff opened up in there, but you know, so I get that part too. You know, we want to speak to our audience, right? We don't want to, we don't want to be in your you're talking about kind of being super empathetic, right? You take on energies very strongly. So surrounding yourself with people that are kind of aligned with your message, that's not really a benefit to you.

Jen Gilchrist 23:24 Right, and it takes a little like I can relate with that part of your journey as well because you know, when I first started my business, and it's like, I realized okay, I gotta learn about marketing there's a whole learning curve about how to get in front of your people I mean, there's there's a whole learning curves are different from my other business for sure. And and I started trying to put myself in like figuring it out. And before you know it, my spirituality it was empowered women's leadership was like the next major iteration of my business, which was a safer version, oh, well, they can handle this and I can go to a network and that could be a sale and I wasn't trying to be fake it in ways that it felt aligned in what I taught with intuition and masculine and feminine energy and like how to how to be aligned but but my message but I got watered down in the process, trying to put myself into the square peg of marketing. Sometimes for scripture, entrepreneurs, especially your your message can start to get diluted and actually contorted in a way that isn't even sounding like what you do, even though it kind of is, you know what I mean? And so I spent my wheels quite a few years trying to figure that out because I wasn't going to own well actually, I listened to a lot of coaches that basically said, you can't lead with spirituality you can't lead with with straight transformation. You can't lead as a psychic or as a psychic teacher. And it's like I knew I was called to teach people to develop their intuition. Like that felt right to me. So I kept trying to find other ways to make it more adaptable to marketing standards. And it just didn't, it never worked until I switched and rebranded and just decided, you know, I don't care. I'm doing what feels totally good to me. And I'm just gonna start fresh and I've kind of tore that brand down rebranded, and fully started teaching, intuitive and psychic Development and everything flourished, you know, and it was just that little bit of marketing tweak that makes a difference. And I think, you know, there is a learning curve to it. But part of it was, I think, still me learning to own that final piece of just really owning that higher truth of who I was, and also not peddling other people's information above my own and saying, oh, you know, you're making you're making you're making an impact doing your souls work, I should listen to you. And in that process, you know, I spent a few years figuring out that that's not actually true. We do know, I think learning from others is great. But when you start to consciously abandon yourself a little bit in the process, trying to figure it out. That misalignment will show up in not creating the impact or money that you're that you're called for. Right?

Brandon Handley 25:48 Yeah, no. So you've got to be your own authority. Right? You've got to be your own authority. And I think in that process, you were finding your voice you're finding, how do I express the truths of like, what's coming through me? And you had to go through those iterations? Right. I mean, I think that, you know, the people that came before us, like, if you tune into like some old Alan Watts stuff, right, you see, like, you know, there is like as kind of the teacher buttoned up in the beginning, because that's where he's accepted. But in the end, like there is as a shaggy, like beatnik smoking pipe guy, right? Like he turned into who he was. And he had to go through those iterations develop his voice in the same way like for you, you've got to go through. I mean, it's a process, you've got to develop and find the truth of who you are.

Jen Gilchrist 26:39 I think in that process, yeah, it's like, to me, your spiritual work is like, you have your big dark night of soul, which is a big whammy for most people, whether it's health or relationships, or, in my case, a car accident, you know, it's like, boom, you have that kind of initial spiritual awakening that's jolting because you go from unconscious to conscious. But then like, to me, the building of my spiritual business is actually the biggest spiritual work I've done. Because you have to really dig into your own self worth your own feeling safe being seen your own, you know, confidence and certainty in your gifts. And like, you have to constantly move through that inner fear in order to step out of your comfort zone over and over again, to realize and manifest something that's an idea and to form. And so I have found it to be deep spiritual work to to build this business and a bit in a way, kind of beautiful, how it works out, right, it kind of forces us to keep aligning with ourselves in order to show up for who we're meant to be.

Brandon Handley 27:33 know for sure. What would you say the scariest part of leaning into this space was for you? How did you overcome it?

Jen Gilchrist 27:44 I think the scariest part, well, here's those two pieces, honestly, this the judgment of my family, I think the spiritual closet piece was a really, really big one initially, for sure, just because there's I didn't know any, but I didn't even know the word New Age, when until I was 32. Until this whole thing happened. Like I was in a bubble of what I was raised with, and my family, there were good, like, we have a great relationship, you know, it's not like I'm estranged from them. And that way, and so to disappoint and to see their fear and their shame, and like all of that was, you know, having to figure out how to move through that that kind of discipline, like when I felt like I was bringing them shame and pain and fear in that way, choosing what I was choosing, that I think was the hardest part was being okay with me and not needing their approval, and being willing to let them have their opinion and have their response, whatever that might be, in order to not betray myself. I think that took a lot of courage. And it took a period of time for me to actually move through that. And I would say that this honestly, the spiritual, you know, public speaking piece is part of that as well. Being sensitive, I didn't know I was highly sensitive or empathic. And a lot of my fear of public speaking was having to do with being very hyper aware of, you know, in high school, that deadpan stare, and all the judgments and you're like, Oh, they're all thinking these things, and you feel so self conscious, you know, and feeling and being hyper aware of that judgment. You know, it really does come down to just loving myself and not needing the approval of others, whether it's my family, or whether it's the people I'm speaking to a group that doesn't get it or, you know, whatever it might be, it's about me being okay with me. So I think that was the biggest, like, chunk of my journey.

Brandon Handley 29:24 For sure. So I think somewhere along the journey, right, we come to learn that we are creators of our own lives, right? That we're kind of like a hunt that kind of we're we're 100% responsible for the life that we have. Talk to me about like just kind of stumbling on that for yourself and where that dawned on you and what you've done with that information.

Jen Gilchrist 29:51 Yeah, I mean, of course, I think it started with you know, the initial some of the first books I read, you know, the, the secret the law of attraction, all those things kind of gave me a taste of it. And so I started recognizing and seeing the synchronicities, seeing sort of the the universe, how the universe gives us signs. And that way and for me, the angels, working with my spiritual support team, especially the archangels, was the one of the first things that came into my, into my awareness early on in my spiritual path. And so cultivating that connection and communication with that with my spiritual support team, and really just learning how to trust my intuition knowing that, you know, first of all, I think it's about being aware of seeing the signs that when things are working for you, or not working for you that there's an impact about how you're thinking and what your actions are taking, that are driving that reality. Right. So being able to take personal responsibility is a huge piece of it, for sure. But within that it was about how do I cultivate that communication and trust that I don't have to know the how right to me working with my spiritual team was so liberating, because I can have this really big vision and dream that I did that I saw was possible that I felt called to do, but no idea how to accomplish it. So knowing that I can just tap in and ask my angels and guides to support me in helping guide my path, helping to figure out what steps to take, as opposed to my mind trying to figure it out, really helped me feel more free and actually allowed me to, to go after bigger dreams, because I knew I didn't have to figure it out all on my own, I knew I was supported, I knew I just had to hold that vision, asked for the steps and then trust myself to take the Guided Action. And in that process, you will be in a completely different place in a very short period of time, you'll start to see the act, the reality that, that when you start to take action on this intuitive guidance is that you have whether you're just listening to your higher self to God to source to your angels, that line of communication is gonna guide you through. And so to me that taking those little steps is what, and cultivating that relationship. And knowing that I actually wasn't alone, which was interesting how that was part of our first message, you know, it's like leaning into that, that support. And knowing I was guided was the most powerful piece for me, I think when you

Brandon Handley 32:01 and and so the spiritual support team, I love just kind of how you categorize that. When when you're talking I love I love you don't have to know thou, right. I'm a big fan. When I try to explain if I don't have to know the how, right you don't know, yeah. I struggle sharing that with other people who are in this space. How do you like to translate that into? I've never heard of the law of attraction. I've never seen the secret people.

Jen Gilchrist 32:37 I think it's sometimes it's about surrender. So sometimes I'll speak to if simplicity is trying to control the House or control the situation or for something to happen, then it's to me, it's about well, leaning into that faith and surrender, learning how to let go and trust yourself. So let's see when it comes to not knowing the how I think most of the people that are attracted to me are definitely more on the blue side. Definitely one on the open spiritually slide. But really, it comes to talk about intuition, to me your intuition, and what I think sometimes surprises people because I do attract a lot of people who are new on their spiritual path and awakening that I do believe that we all have this aren't our gifts, right? Our intuition is simply the medium of our human self, being aware of our higher self or aware of our angels or of source, right, it's just the human awareness. It's the human communication, like the awareness of our communication between our higher self or spiritual support team. And so when you can start to play with that in the day to day, you know, I teach people just to start to take play with that and the day to day, how can you know, Guy help guide me? Angels guides, Higher Self source? You know, how can you help me align with my higher capacity I'm inviting you in and then invite them to just start to pay attention to what kind of nudges or feelings ideas or thoughts they get. And as they start to play with that, they'll start to see the evidence of that, oh, wow, I had this idea or thought, and I took action. And in that action, a miracle happened. That's so exciting, right? And so they start to see that. And as you start to build that little bit of cultivating that trust and faith in your day to day with the small things, when you're asked to make a big investment, like the $22,000 business investment, that wasn't my first time leaning into not knowing now, right? I did that by cultivating that on a daily basis by asking every day and figuring out what's the quickest way to get to, to the shopping mall, what's the what can I do in the little things, you know, and following and building that bridge in that and that trust muscle and that cultivation muscle of new recognizing the signs. And then when I'm asked to take bigger actions, I know that I can lean in and let go and I know that it's going to be supported. So that makes sense. So I started

Brandon Handley 34:40 listening. So it's real similar, I think to what I expressed to a lot of people to write, you know, to start to trust your intuition. Right. Start to believe that you don't have to know the how and just see the vision of the whatever that you're trying to accomplish. And I'm looking for the evidence that that what you're looking for is kind of already there and coming to you. And I like that you talked about being open to miracles, right, like accept that there are miracles in your life and being open to them. So that's a, that's a great piece. And building building that muscle, right? I think that's really important. How you stated like, I didn't start with, I'm gonna go all in on 22k. I built my way up to that, right, like, because there's gonna be a lot of people that, you know, I certainly been involved in, kind of like a high pressure sales environment, right? Like, you really need to do this, like, you really need to back off. Right? Like, I mean, because I think that some people can get caught in the middle of this right in the middle of seeing the evidence being opened in a miracle, but not quite being ready. Right? So what you're talking about, grow into that space? Until, like, what you said earlier, too, is like, Am I in alignment or not? Right? Is this in alignment or not? And trust yourself there. Right? If Now's not the time, guess what? There's gonna be plenty of those moments open to you in the future, right? You're not going to miss out on kind of like your soul calling. Because you didn't invest in 22 Kids Day per se. Right, you know, but so that's what I think is really important, though, that you would up to that, right?

Jen Gilchrist 36:35 Yeah, I think you do have to build that muscle. And that's kind of what I asked myself when I was trying to make that decision. At first, I'm like, Oh, my first money is the easy scapegoat. Right? Because it's right there. It's real. But I'm like, you know, I don't have the money in my mortgage payment, How I can't do it. And I thought, well, and I could feel that was kind of not all the stories I'm like, Well, if money wasn't the problem, what is underneath? Like, oh, I would be afraid would I even show up? For what if I invest in this? And I don't show up for it? Or what if I if I do show up for it. And then I gotta stand up there to make a fool of myself for you know, so I started getting into the fear of the reality was, was really coming more down to that fear of public speaking more than anything else, because I'd already learned and known that. I'm always guided, I'm always, you know, there's always I know, I've already seen the miracles happen. And so sometimes it does require us to just to look inside and be honest with ourself about, well, what is the fear that I'm allowing, you know, to hold me back from receiving this or blocking myself from having the opportunity for what it is that I'm asking for, you know, where is it that I'm not allowing myself to receive it, or where is there that I'm afraid of what how this might change my life, or my relationships, if I do, and you have to start to really address those in or, you know, be honest with yourself and really assess that because the more and more we get out of alignment, eventually, you just start to feel more loose and like the lack of fulfillment, we kind of got to at that point in our life, the more out of alignment we get, eventually, we can't suppress and numb and avoid that anymore, kind of snapped back until we just have to move forward. But we always have free will of choice, of course. But the more that we take actions against ourselves, the more miserable we'll be over. Right? And eventually, you just have to feel the fear and

Brandon Handley 38:12 call the hero, right? Like, I mean, it's never gonna go away, it's gonna keep popping up, you're gonna keep saying No, put, it's gonna keep knocking on your door, right? And until you, you have two choices, right, you can keep pushing it away and numb out, right? Or you can kind of get into it and see where it takes you, which is, you know, sounds like kind of what you've done, and it's worked out.

Jen Gilchrist 38:39 Yeah, and I think that another important thing to say, just because you mentioned this, too, it's true there every second, every moment of every time every day, we have an opportunity to realign so if we miss an opportunity, or we, or we don't say yes to something that was for us that could have propelled us forward, we can always align to something no matter how messed up your situation is, you can always align to a highest path again, we always have the opportunity. And the more that we say no to those things, the more that we push it off, the more that we push off our piece, the more that we push off our happiness, the more that we push off our prosperity and all those things so at a certain point, I think it's not necessarily guaranteed that we'll live our higher path and purpose that's an opportunity available but we have to meet it ASHRAE we have to choose it and if we don't choose it then it will always be in the future

Brandon Handley 39:25 no 100% You know,

Jen Gilchrist 39:26 so there's kind of that balance there and not beating ourselves up for what the past but also realizing the more we push it off the the longer we prolong the longer

Brandon Handley 39:34 you stay where you're at, right yeah. Who is like your ideal client? Like who's to be reached out to you Jen, like, what do you like? Somebody calls you Who do you want to hear from like, what lights you like?

Jen Gilchrist 39:51 I love supporting people who are willing and who are willing to do the work who who. So people that come to me are usually sent highly sensitive, empathic people who have gone through a level of spiritual awake thing, who are ready to go in and say, You know what I know that I can consciously create the life of desire, I know, I feel the soul's calling inside of me, and I'm ready to move through those fears and doubts and blocks within me. And I'm no longer willing to have those things stop me and I'm ready to push up my sleeves and do that in our work, so that I can align with my best life so that I can fulfill on my life's purpose. And so I can really make that impact that I feel called to do. Because I believe that I'm here to support and really equip those who know they're here to make an impact in the world with the confidence and the courage and really awaken their gifts so that they can go out and make that ripple effect of healing and change with their unique gifts, as well. And so I'm ready to empower those people who have a calling, but need a little bit of support, maybe getting aligned with that, and the confidence and the trust in their spiritual gifts in order to make that happen.

Brandon Handley 40:46 It's hard, right? Especially like you found if you don't have somebody else around you that's already in that space, right to support you and going forward. So having somebody like you when you know, that person is ready, and they feel like they're ready. Is there anybody you stop? Like, and you say, You know what, you're just not ready, like, how do you know that that person is ready? How's that go?

Jen Gilchrist 41:14 I mean, usually we'll have usually within a few conversations, you can start to see if they're blaming, you know, I think when people are willing to accept responsibility for their life and for their situation that I know that they're able to learn the skill set, because I can teach people the skill sets of how to do the shadow work, how to actually dig in, you know, I teach tools and processes and support you, I'll support you. And I teach you tools and processes to forevermore support yourself and your future clients, perhaps if you feel called to clear those root patterns to clear those fears and blocks at the core cause that are stopping you. Right, I can teach you how to do that. If you're willing to accept responsibility and want to actually implement those things. And so for me, it's usually in the languaging of, of if they're ready to, to kind of dig into that and feel the fears and look at what's actually going on within and be honest and want to move forward. So if I have that desire, I feel we can work together because mostly I work in group program settings at this point. I'm not doing one on one work. But and that's powerful too, because like you mentioned, most people, a lot of people I would say majority that come in don't have a large network of people that understand what's happened, you know, they've gone through this awakening, and so their old life or their old, or the people that are most around them may not fully get it. And so one of the hidden blessings that comes from the the communities and the programs that I share is that they create life meal soul family, you know, they have friends, they have people that they can come in and celebrate these miracles with the other people might kind of go, oh, that's a coincidence, or you're crazy, or that's a little weird, you know, no, they can come in and they can celebrate these things so that they don't get stuck in their head about it. And so they can feel seen and validated. And and so that people can hold that vision that you know what you are capable that is possible for you. And I think having that network of community support is pretty essential. Because most of us feel like the lone wolf in our family, we often feel like the odd man in charge we kind of are the ones who are chained breaking the patterns of comfort zones of those around us. And so having other people understand that journey, I think is self healing and of itself and also resolving the competition, right when you can be with people who want to celebrate you and that you have permission to celebrate yourself in front of I think all of those things, cultivate so much within you in terms of a healing and a confidence level that you will keep moving forward because it's not easy to live that life. It's not easy to was I could have stayed with my 15 Hour Workweek six figure business, you know, not working very hard in my business. But no, I felt the calling to move forward. Right. But it wasn't the easier path that's for sure. And so I think you need to have those people around you because there's going to be days that are easier than others and some days they're going to be harder. And so I think knowing that you have that support key to going forward

Brandon Handley 44:00 100% definitely makes it easier what I'm going for you but what's Yeah, that's what it was the extra stuff like what's an exercise right that like you'd like to start people off with or you know, kind of get them in tune with themselves?

Jen Gilchrist 44:22 Well, I have a couple that are coming to mind. First thing I think having the intention to thing with free will of choice. So if you're open if people are open to I always suggest asking you know, stepping in so our angels and our guides, right and even just making that agreement with your higher self right you're kind of setting yourself up for the beginning of the day that you're hey this is my intention. So setting the intention asking you have to invite in that spiritual support because we do have free will of choice. So asking you know, hey, help me see help me show me loud clear signs I can easily understand to either align with my higher path today or live my purpose or to whatever your intention is inviting and your angels your guides. And making that intention with yourself, I think is important. Because then you can start to, you'll start to trigger the synchronicities to happen, and will start to train you into being aware of all of the miracles and opportunities that are around you every second of every day, if we can just be present see them. So to me, a small meditation practice, even 10 minutes in the morning is going to be an imperative piece of that, right, some kind of tuning into your body, your breath, which I can give a short guided one for that as well. And then asking your spiritual support team, your angels, your guides, your higher self to be invited in to actually guide you throughout your day and start to notice what happens that that right there can be a very powerful way to begin to cultivate that communication and to start to instigate those synchronicities and to start to gain the inspiration, the ideas that you're being called to take in order to have that vision come to fruition. So that's the main thing. Yeah. And then a quick meditation I suggest people to do is that TLC meditation, that might be something I could quickly share, and I can actually even get, I can also give a short, free guided, you know, one for them to appreciate the concept.

Brandon Handley 46:13 So there was definitely appreciate the audience definitely appreciate that. For sure. Thank you.

Jen Gilchrist 46:17 Yeah, well, the TLC, because I know a lot of people I don't know, this is me. And I think a lot of people when you first start meditating, like I can't meditate my head, my mind is going like I think there's just no way you know, it's like, trust me is try you know, but the T just stands for talk to your body. So you know, just closing your eyes and being deep into your, into your body into your breasts. And just remembering that you just follow the process, you take those nice deep breaths, it starts to give your mind somewhere to focus, so that you're not trying to just clear your thoughts altogether, right, you want to give yourself something to focus on in your body is always in the present moment. And so that's one way to start to just bring that awareness to your breath, and your body. And so, in, for instance, if you're hitting anything, really could use this in many ways, but maybe you're feeling like you're procrastinating on a project. And you're like, why I keep procrastinating? Well, you can ask your body, right tune in and just say, okay, so talk to your body as well. Where's this procrastination? Or where's this anxiety? In my body? Right now? Where's this core of this in my body? And then you just start to notice and you'll be present with feeling? Is there a constriction? Is there an area? Do you have an idea or a vision? Like, where is it in your body, that you're actually feeling the core of this anxiety? And then you can start to ask, you know, well, what is? What is this trying to tell me? Right? What is it that I can do in order to be in alignment with peace, maybe that's what you want to bring in. And then you have to listen. So the L stands for listening. And so that's when you just get quiet and present and be open to what ideas, thoughts or visions might be coming to you in that moment. Even just placing your hands on that area, like if you notice, I feel tension in my neck, that starts to give awareness and presence to something you've been ignoring within your field. And it will start to give that that part of yourself that stuck energy that that emotion or whatever it is, that's that's there, that's kind of calling your attention to that moment as a block, it'll start to allow it to begin to dissipate. So then once you listen, you know what, what next step can I take, start training yourself into asking this open ended questions to be aligned or to be at peace right now. And then you just notice is that a glass of water is that taking a walk, what small little vision thoughts or ideas are coming to you, because often, it's just in those small little things that will start to bring you back into that alignment that will change the course of actions and mindset that you'll have for the day. And so then c is commit to those guided actions. So I kind of like the acronym TLC, right? It's easy to remember. But it's also just kind of bringing that awareness to first you have to ask, then you have to quiet and listen. And then you have to commit to taking the action. And if you start practicing a quick meditation like that, you'll start to cultivate the awareness that you may have been overlooking previously, because your intuition speaks to you much more quietly than your ego or your mind, right? We have to get up present enough to actually recognize those signs.

Brandon Handley 49:17 For sure. Now's a great, that's a great meditation. I love it. You know, tuning in getting quiet, following your breath. And not just having those kinds of epiphanies, but you know, actually taking action on them, right? loves the idea to commit to it. I've got this idea, and I'm actually gonna do something with it. And I think that that's pretty cool. I enjoy that. Well, thanks for sharing that. I've got a little section here that I basically think of this podcast is called like spiritual speed dating. Right? Like somebody's gonna tune in today and they've had enough of me, and they're moving on, and they could be moving on to like you Jan right. Like, you know, so if you're open to it, I got a couple of questions I'd like to ask you. Sure. So I like to say spiritual Bachelorette number one, how does one obtain true peace?

Jen Gilchrist 50:17 Truth peace. I believe true peace comes from being in the present, you know, when we're when we're not to me, when you're not in peace, your mind is thinking either usually into the future worrying about something that hasn't happened. Or it's in the past, ruminating, feeling guilty, resentful, or frustrated with something that's happened in the past that you wish you could do differently or you're angry about. And so both of those kind of steal your joy and steal your peace. So for me being about peace is about getting into that present moment getting out of resistance to what is having acceptance of what is. So taking those, you know, calming breaths could be one way, but then just being in that space of accepting of what is that's the first step of being able to change your situation, when we can accept what is and not full responsibility, it allows us to now begin to take new action that will liberate us long term. Does that make sense? So it's about kind of really being present, being surrendered? Being in acceptance, and just asking, you know, what is it that I can do today to feel more at peace or to be more aligned with myself so that I can experience more joy, more joy, and start taking those, you know, quick, day to day habits will start to shift things a lot

Brandon Handley 51:28 less, I think that as it pertains to what you've already talked about, you know, set the expectation that joy could show up, right, the peace can show up and start again, seeing the evidence and be open to miracles. Like if you've never felt that peace before, and you feel it just for a moment, that could be a miracle in your own life.

Jen Gilchrist 51:51 Gratitude journaling is kind of under looked at sometimes I think that's one of the quickest, very quick way, if you're feeling down in the dumps about something, or you're feeling overwhelmed, you know, doing a gratitude list of just rampaging out a bunch of everything you can be grateful for the first time somebody told me this literally, the only things I could think of was, I'm grateful for my mom, my family, my daughter, my dog and my house, like I was in the dumps, I could not that like, literally, that was my list. And she's like, You know what, put, I'm grateful for myself, I'm grateful for you your name on the top of that list. And then every day, I would start adding to my list. And then I started reading the whole thing, and then I'd add some more things. And before you know it, I was like, wow, I have a lot to be grateful for. And that really starts to shift and your energy and your happiness. And it allows you to start to attract a lot more miracles and a lot more

Brandon Handley 52:42 like it. It's like you've got a coral reef of gratitude. Right? As far as I've ever heard of expanding on the list, so I like that's good concept. Um, doo doo doo doo. One more, one more. What is your one wish for the world.

Jen Gilchrist 53:07 I wish everybody to just know that they are conscious creators, that they are powerful beings that can create the life that they desire, I want them to just know that they do not have to stay stuck in situations that do not serve them that do not make them happy that they absolutely have the power to create a life they

Brandon Handley 53:22 love. So I think this is one of the one that I agree. But it's also tough to share with people, right? Who haven't stepped into that space. Right? Who haven't kind of seen evidence because you're gonna be like, well, what am I God? Right? You know, I'm just gonna just manifest Brandon. Right? You know? So how do you, you know, take that to the next level, what are some steps somebody can do to start to see that for themselves.

Jen Gilchrist 53:57 I think first you have to have the awareness and the desire and then it has to be present the awareness and the desire to change the situation. To me personal responsibility has a lot to do with it. And it doesn't ever mean that we are accepting bad behavior from others, it doesn't mean that, you know, we deserved to whatever sickness or bad thing that might have happened our life, whatever we're at, it's about just acceptance and self responsibility of, of that awareness. Like I choose to have things differently, I'm going to be present with what is and I'm gonna second responsibility for my part within it. So that way, to me, that's the first step of the creation process, that's that's clearing the space for you to be able to start to want something different and it's just about, you know, getting to the bottom of knowing that you deserve more a lot of times, you know, realizing that, that you do deserve more and that more is available to you. So I think for me, it just people have to be aware and open to it agree to set that precedence and then taking that responsibility to know that if I can say okay, what is my part within it? It's not to say that something was okay if there was a wrongdoing, but it's about to say, how can I get underneath at this root cause of like, Why did I allow that? Why did I allow that kind of behavior in my job or relationship? Why is, you know, hmm, that's interesting. Well, now I choose that I have more self worth, I choose to have a boundary, right, I'm choosing to not make a new decision. And those little steps will very quickly start to empower a person to realizing that they don't have to keep their past does not have to dictate their future, if we don't allow it. So it's kind of like creating that clean slate pivot, when we can do that,

Brandon Handley 55:35 like that, right, you know, kind of breaking away from your default mode network of thinking and start to make these conscious choices and decisions and taking that 100% responsibility for yourself and seeing how that begins to change your life. Right. It's so powerful. So thanks for sharing that I liked I liked it walkthrough that. You mentioned, you had something that you would like to give to the audience. What was that?

Jen Gilchrist 56:06 Oh, yes, definitely. So I have I have the masterclass series for those that this is resonating with, I think you're really gonna love it, there's probably over six hours worth of content and video training. It's a masterclass series that starts to teach you, there's four days, and it teaches you about how to communicate how your intuition works, how to communicate with your spiritual team, how to start to actually cultivate that and bring that now each day I'll give practical implementable exercise exercises that you can bring into your life to start to work with your spirit team to recognize your intuition. And then I teach you some healing tools as well as that TLC body meditation I spoke up like how can I start to get present? How can I start to now move that energy that might be stuck, maybe old emotions, or fears or doubts that are holding me back. And then I'd get a little bit deeper into how to how to utilize your intuition as a way to guide your life. So it starts to move you into being able to have the confidence and courage to take action on your intuitive guidance. And then there's a lot of healing. So each day, there's also healing work around clearing your fears and doubts around around things that we talked about today, the confidence and trust of your intuition, you're coming out of the spiritual closet, those types of things often come up as well as a lot of tools for the highly sensitive empathic person to not absorb everybody else's energy around them, which is ultimately what led me to my burnout. And I did show it. So I think it's in that series people walk away. I've had, you know, hundreds 1000s Actually, of comments, when I've run this live from people who have just taken, you know, big life changes for themselves away from this series. And so I'm excited to extend that to all of you there is that meditation that I spoke of as well, that daily practice that I think that they will enjoy.

Brandon Handley 57:47 Megan, find that on your website.

Jen Gilchrist 57:51 Yes, I can give you the link for that. It's soul success. unleashed.com is my website. But I think I would have to give you in the show notes,

Brandon Handley 58:01 the meditations and the course on the master class. Thank you so much, Jen, thanks for being on today. Really enjoyed ourselves today.

Jen Gilchrist 58:12 Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure, and I'm super excited to connect with your audience. Bye for now. I

Intro Guy 58:18 really hope you enjoyed this episode of the spiritual dove podcast. Stay connected with us directly through spiritual dove.co. You can also join the discussion on Facebook, spiritual and Instagram at spiritual underscore Joe. If you would like to speak with us, send us an email to Brandon at spiritual dough.co And as always, thank you for cultivating your mindset and creating a better reality. This includes the most thought provoking part of your day. Don't forget to like and subscribe to stay fully up to date. Until next time, be kind to yourself and trust your intuition.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Katische is an Intuitive Sound Healer (Certified) and Past Life Regression Therapist. Katische discovered the power of sound as a new modality for past life regression. Why simply lie on a couch, feeling anxious about your ability to go into hypnosis, when you can relax at home, with a set of headphones in your ears, and be transported to another time and place, thanks to the use of specific sound healing instruments, and the hypnotic voice of Katische. Katische is a skilled intuitive sound healer, who uses vibrational aromatherapy, to help you relax and take advantage of all of your cares. https://katische.com/about-katische Welcome to the show. 0:00 What's coming through to you right now? 1:21 The practice of "Don't check your phone". 6:33 Singing bowls as a healing tool. 12:16 Perimenopause and menopause. 17:07 How the sound journey has led him to where he is today. 24:37 What is the eternal mind? What is akashic records? 30:15 What does past life look like in past life? 37:01 When is war justifiable and when is it not? 43:00 What happens after you die depends upon your beliefs. 49:28 The importance of being honest with yourself.

Intro Guy 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general appear so limited? Thought Process? Rest assured, you are not alone. The world is slowly waking up to what you already no inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the question you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world the people in it? Most importantly, how do I proceed? Now moving forward? We don't even have all the answers, but we sure do love living in the question some time for another spiritual with your host, Brandon Handley. Let's get right into today's episode.

Brandon Handley 0:43 Hey there spiritual dope. I'm on here today with cuttlefish haverfield, she helps old soul Starseeds and Lightworkers to break free of current behaviors and limiting beliefs impact and their potential and sole purpose. See access accesses the sub and superconscious mind across all lifetimes has happened to him break the patterns, beliefs, the words broken in half the powers beliefs and karmic vows that are holding you back so that you can live life according to your soul's desires, not your ego, or your karmic paths. Teach how are you it's been you know, we connected a while ago, so great to reconnect.

Katische 1:21 It's great to reconnect with you too. I'm great. Thank you very well.

Brandon Handley 1:25 Awesome. So teach, I like to start us off with the whole idea that you and I we're we're vessels for cosmic spiritual, universal energy, whatever you want to call it. Something's always coming through to us, for somebody else's kind of like higher and best good, right? So in that vein, what's coming through you right now, this time that's coming through for one of our listeners, highest and best good.

Katische 1:56 So right now we're in a fairly intense emotional period. So today, I had to clear my energy before we we came on to this podcast, because right now, we've got Saturn in retrograde for all those astrologers out there. And when Saturn goes into retrograde, it is time to deal with karma, and karmic patterns. And right now, it is a really good time until October, to look at how you're behaving and interacting with other people in the world because it's coming up for healing. So that's something to really look into at the moment is, right now this morning, if you are triggered by somebody, you kid annoyed you friend, a teacher, or a colleague or client, that's actually not about them at all. It's about you. And it's to do with the timing right now. So take a deep breath, go and do meditation, sit down, have a cup of tea. It's so cool. It's all good. It's just ready, ready and ripe. Ready, right for healing and for a little bit of introspection.

Brandon Handley 2:57 And that's that's the healing and the time period. We're good to do that all the way up top to over is that what you're saying?

Katische 3:05 It's gonna be where Adam retrograde and straight into Saturn retrograde.

Brandon Handley 3:09 Just straight up to shenanigans. I'll tell you I was absolutely irritated this morning with with people and things. So this, it's good to know that it's me. And always. Right, right. And I think that that's super important to know. And so, you know, just off the bat you because he said it clears your energy. How did you do that? Like, what's your process for cleaning your energy before you hopped on here today, and thanks for thanks for taking that extra time.

Katische 3:42 I sat on the couch and I had a cup of tea. And I went onto YouTube my TVs connected to the internet, you know Smart TV things that we didn't have when we were a kid. But now Now it's just like old hat technology. And I looked for a sound healing. So I looked for a one of the 10 billion channels that I subscribe to that are different hertz of sound, blended with beautiful imagery, that I could just sit there and shoot into the sound and accept the healing of the music. And then that matches and changes my vibration. So basically swaddled me with love. And then says right, let's do whatever you want to do. I just wanted to come and relax. So I listened to the music. And then the sun came in and I moved my face to the exact location of the sun, close my eyes and then when I close my eyes, I see a multitude of colors. So my third eye becomes active and then I receive in the angelic healing from the team that I work with. And that's how I clear my energy.

Brandon Handley 4:47 That's great. I'd love to hear that. What was that? I mean, did you was there multiple frequencies and Hertz right of hertz frequencies that you chose today or did you land on one that was like I need to clear XYZ and NGL

Katische 5:01 um, a lot of the times I will look for specific hurts, but these days, they that you know how YouTube shows you the same thing over and over again that it predicts your behavior. So I tend to get a couple of different frequencies come up, over and over again. And those are generally to do with a heart chakra. So healing the heart and making yourself feel a lot calmer, off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you what they were. But this, you know, for 28 hurts comes up a lot. And it's about the feeling that I want to obtain. So this morning, I was I wanted to come and center myself, I wanted to remove the agitation that I was feeling from, you know, the triggers that I had been triggered by because I hadn't set my energetic boundaries at the start of the day. So usually, when I wake up, I set my energetic boundaries, and I don't look at my phone or do anything business related or world related until I've got myself organized. This morning, the first thing I did, for some unknown reason was checked a message on my phone, and boom, that person was having a bad moment I reacted. And you know, you're like, Oh, why did you do that? So yeah, it's just coming back to the Hey, you have to come first. You have to get energy ready and grounded for the day. Otherwise, everything that everyone else is feeling is gonna set you off. And I know that because I'm just very empathic, empathetic and very energy sensitive. So I pick up on other people's feelings.

Brandon Handley 6:33 Well, sure, listen, and I think that's an awesome practice. It's one that I think I've been doing for not your whole routine, your whole team. Sounds great, right? I have no energetic boundaries set that I know of. So that that piece sounds really interesting. The piece I'm very familiar with is don't like the first. Don't check your phone. First thing in the morning, right? Don't check your phone, give yourself dedicated. I tend to give myself around an hour in the morning, right, where I dedicate it to breathwork doing a meditation, journaling, reading something that is, you know, kind of timeless and helpful. The last thing I want to do even like if I see texts, like notifications, I'm like, No, I don't, or the news, or like Facebook or any of that stuff. You know, I'll get to that. But like you're saying your energy and I'm not empathetic. So I can only imagine that I'm terrible. But like, I just like, I can only imagine the kind of energy drain or the distraction that it can cause somebody who's hypersensitive, like you're saying, You are to like all these energies out there. Like, I'm like, It's like a It's just a disruption. That totally unnecessary. So low. I love that. So, you know, Tish and I, we got together today to talk about one thing. And it's things have changed in your life, right? Since then, and we're going to talk a little bit about that today. You came on, as, you know, sound integrative healer, but your path has changed since then. So let's talk a little bit about the sound a little bit about the science behind that and where it's taken you and what you're what it is that you're doing now.

Katische 8:21 Oh, okay. So yes, when we touch base, I had trained as an intuitive sound healer, through the modalities of the crystal singing bowls. So what happened for me was that in COVID, the first time around, you know, back in 2020 Feels like a long time ago now, when everything shut down. I was like, Ooh, what are we gonna do now? You know, like, and I was drawn to Crystal Singh boss, I had received a sound healing prior to sound healings, that I had resonated with and had really impacted me on a physical body level. So I had been privileged to be at a an event, which is for something totally different. They brought in a beautiful relaxing session with the sound healer, who played the didgeridoo, which is just just amazing. I love the didgeridoo, and a whole bunch of other First Nations, we call them now in Australia, First Nations musical instruments. And he had the symbols as well. And I had some issues with female hormones at that time. And it cleared that issue for me instantaneously, like within 12 hours, something that I've been struggling with for months, and I was like, hold on a second here. This is interesting. And generally, for me, I'm a very curious person when I get that hold on a second. I'm also a really big academic geek and I just go right throw me in. And so I was like, okay, my body really, really resonates with sound. Let me find out a little bit more about it. Why why do I I, why do I respond so well to this. And so I just went on on the internet as you do. And I found an institute in the UK who basically have sound healing training, and all the different instruments that you like. And I went well, I liked the singing bowls, they're pretty. And I find them very relaxing. So let me go and study them. And what it did was it taught you the basics of science behind sound to understand basically what you're talking about, so that you could understand how something that you can't see can actually heal the body. And I guess it's we're so used to, prior to doing sound healing, I worked with essential oils quite intensively. And I understand how aroma works with the body. You know, I studied the science behind the aromatics in the body in terms of the olfactory system and the limbic system. And so I was like, Cool, I get how my nose and my ears and my throat work to inhale aromas which then can heal me. So if my brain could grapple with and understand an aroma, which is essentially invisible as well smell, then the next step for me was to understand auditory healing and go Well, it's the same passageway that makes sense. I'm listening, I'm not doing anything actively. I'm just receiving, how does that work. And what I learned in the sound healing was that, for me, in particular, and I realized that for other people in particular, the sound really worked with calming and grounding people. So at that time, and COVID, obviously, everybody's on heightened alert. Our nervous systems are kind of really like a really tightly strung violin, and the singing bowls, which look like this crystal thing that shouldn't be grounding and calming. If you knew which singing bowl, which musical note, the singing bowl was tuned to create it for, you could actually really do some wonders for your nervous system by grounding and calming yourself. So for example, I have a singing bowl, and it is attuned to the Root Chakra. And so it's my biggest thing in football, and it makes the deepest sound. And I have never been a student of music in this lifetime. I'm not the person that can actually even read musical notes. I mean, I did piano until grade 10, and grade 10. But I was one that kid that always had to write the notes on top of the lines, do you remember this is a so we and I played percussion as well. But again, I was that kid that wanted to play the musical instruments that had no understanding of what I called the gifted kids did you know I wasn't good at math and science. And so it wasn't part of my brain that I tuned into. But I knew I really liked it. And for me, when we get into this, the science of sound healing it was, I read something, it makes instantaneous sense to me. And then it goes out one year. I forget it from a technical perspective, but I'll just go and do it.

Which is totally different to way the kids my kids operate. For example, they my son is learning about sound waves in science at the moment. We just discussed this last night. And he's very much on the specifics, the details. And he remembers all the fun stuff. Whereas I'm like, Well, I know that I need this singing bowl, and it makes me feel this way. And I know that aligns with this chakra. And don't ask me what frequency it is. Because I remember that I wrote down in my notes, and I studied it. But that's superfluous. I'm here to use it as a tool. And so I studied the singing bowls and learn how to use them properly, what the hygiene is how to center your energy. And then I came to the pathway, which was at the end of the course, do you want to be a person who puts a singing bowl physically on a person? Like imagine a massage table? You can take the same balls to a practitioner level where you use them, like an acupuncturist would use them or Hearthstone massage therapist and you place them around the body and on the body. And you do a physical form of healing. And I was like, you know, when I started this course, I thought maybe that would be pretty cool. But we've had a year of COVID now and I'm like there aren't going to be people going to massage therapy rooms right so I was like That seems pretty, pretty high risk strategy for where we are in the world right now. What do I what do I feel more called to do with their singing bowls? And for me, the first calling was there has to be a lot of people who are stressed at the moment that could benefit with just relaxing with the singing bowls. You know, it's really like no matter how stressed you are, if you lay down put us have headphones on or be in a room with someone with a singing bowl. You know, you're out cold before, you know, like it just does have this amazing ability to relax the body. So I went down that path. And as I began to play and use the bowls more and trust my intuition more and see other instruments that really resonated with me like simple, simple instruments like a shaker and the coffee time, then I learned that I could take people on shamanic journeys, like I can do shamanic journeys, what are you talking about? Well, I took people, I knew very instantaneously that I could take people into their subconscious mind, and take them on actual journeys to clear, stuck emotion. So I knew how to clear stuck in motion on the physical body. But when I started to experiment more and more work more and more with the symbols, I learned how sound not only removes pain in the body, but it's actually the most amazing miracle worker when you're working with it at an emotional level. And so I started to help people doing via zoom, having these beautiful sessions where they would just put on the headphones, listen to me play the bowls, and I would take them on a shamanic style journey where we went into the subconscious mind. And we worked on self love, we worked on grief, and any of the emotions that they faced, then what happened was that I went, Oh, that's pretty easy to get into subconscious mind. But I want to go further than that, I've got a hunch that I can actually go at a deeper level. Because I'm quite an impatient person. I was like, I don't want to heal them just at this level, I want to go deeper. I've got a lot of Scorpio in my chart. So I'm like, let's just dig deep. And let's get messy. And let's bring it all up. And that's when I realized that I could actually take people into past lives, and that I've always been able to do that and have done so over very, very many, many lifetimes. So that's the journey progressed.

Brandon Handley 17:06 Awesome. And so let's let's just pause there for a second, right? Because one of the things even if I head over to your website, and this is today, I don't know if you're gonna change it. And by the next time somebody gets there, but one of the things that you talked about that I think that you're talking about today is the the pair perimenopause thing, right, like, where you've gone through that, and you're having that situation, is that what the sound healing helped to alleviate some of the symptoms that you're having in France? Isn't that yeah,

Katische 17:36 that was the original thing. Yeah. So I had, I had very permanent post changed everything for me, because my hormones changed, which changed my physical body changed my emotions. It gave me panic attacks. And it gave me uncontrollable bleeding for women. And the sound stopped the bleeding.

Brandon Handley 17:59 The sound stopped. That's awesome. Yeah. And the reason I tuned into that, just to see where my wife's having her own experiences, right, and I thought that was really interesting for that to pop up in your journey as as it's kind of happening here. And I wasn't seeking anything out like that. But, you know, as her symptoms vary, I think, you know, in comparison, but what do you recall? Right? Do you recall the sounds and whatnot, that that you experienced? What was that time for healing? And even walking into it? I would ask you, were you going in there optimistic? Were you going in there looking to have that healed? Are we just going in there to have an experience to see what the sound was gonna do? And lo and behold, the sound clears this out.

Katische 18:47 So, for me there's two components to this. So perimenopause and menopause, because I used to teach on this. This is what led before the into the next phase of my life. perimenopause is a spiritual awakening actually, for women. It's a physical awakening and an emotional change. But it's actually a very important spiritual awakening time for women. Symbolically, it's the time when obviously your bleeding changes, you become less able to get pregnant. So eventually you stop being able to have children and this transition from being a caregiver and Creator of life, to the creative phase of your life where you then tap into your spiritual wisdom. And the physical symptoms that you have in your body during perimenopause and menopause are going to mimic things that your mind is struggling with. Okay, so if your throat if you start having thyroid issues, you're not speaking your truth. Okay, if you start having digestive issues, you're not digesting life properly. Anything to do with the womb is creative issues. You're not allowing your creativity out. mental fog and clarity is another big one. hot flushes is to do with anger, anger is represented in sweat. Yeah. So I started teaching people, I did it for a couple of years about all the symptoms. But I got frustrated because women just wanted a tablet, or a one stop solution to stop it. And so where it happened with me was, basically my body said, I'm gonna give you this intense experience, right? So I'm gonna make you really dig down deep and dirty with what's happening with your body. So like, excuse me to all that people out there who aren't comfortable with blood, but I bled non stop for three months. Okay, and we're not talking a little bit, we're talking, just catastrophic bleed, where a lot of people would have gone and probably got a hysterectomy. Yeah. And I was like, this message here is for me to get really deep down and dirty with with myself as a woman, like I was disgusted by it. And I had to get really comfortable with what it represented to me. I had to really get past that. Inconvenience that anger, though, why me? Why can I fix this? Why is nothing working? What is the message behind this for me? And it was when I then went to that, that workshop, which was for essential oils, that they had the sound healing session, that I was like, No. Having to leave the room very frequently to deal with myself. And then I did that session, and then that's when I got a break in the bleeding. It just stopped the next day, after three months, and that's where I was like, Well, okay, yeah,

Brandon Handley 21:41 yeah, that's, that's a lot, right? That must have been like, so relieving, first of all, right? Like, just be like, like, thank you, for the love of God, it's been A River Runs Through It, you know, enough, right? And I can only imagine, like, you know, like, you're saying, I think most people are gonna go to a doctor or something. Because anything that lasts longer than the norm, we feel should require some type of medical attention. And we don't trust our bodies, we don't trust our intuition. We don't trust ourselves. We've allowed ourselves to kind of fall prey to authority outside of us. And it sounds like, you know, you took hold of you became, and you maintained your own authority over yourself. I think that's pretty cool. So you had this auditory experience that that help? Did it stop after that after the experience?

Katische 22:39 Yeah, and so it was fine for several months, and then it started again, and then reinvestigated and went deeper. And so for me, the change point was that it was a sign all the things that I got, you know, I had to stop drinking alcohol, because I would have want to step back one bit for two seconds, I trained in the wine industry. So I worked in the wine industry for many degrees in in wine marketing. So why would make me instantaneously angry and dripping wet, right, I was like, Well, this is not this is a joke, right? Supposed to relax you and then so I had to cut out alcohol completely. So much, so that even, you know, lose lots of botanical, non alcoholic gins and drinks coming out. And I tried those, but because I had strong audit, sensory training, even the smell of the botanical gins that were non alcoholic would send my body into hot flushes, because it knew the smell that was associated memory, or wine, so too strong. So I cut alcohol out. And when I went to the next layer, I went, I realized the spiritual connection. And it was like, this is the time when you need to do what you're actually come here for. And you need to stop beating yourself up about all these multiple careers that you've had that have never gone anywhere, and realize that they're all stepping stones for each other. And we're trying to lead you on this path. And you just need to trust yourself to follow the things now that absolutely don't make sense. That certainly don't make sense financially, your mother won't understand your kids won't understand them. But you just need to go with it and see where it leads. And know that it's going to keep morphing and changing and you won't understand it but with each thing that you try a new layer of yourself is going to unfold and learn more about yourself and your body and your knowledge and then somewhere something is going to click in and that's what happened for me is that it's that constant morphing, you know, right? So,

Brandon Handley 24:37 so, yeah, the, you know, this journey that you're talking about. And I also want to toss something else out there just for the people listening that aren't familiar with you, like you got the wind back on and you're talking about all these other backgrounds that you had, you know, you were I think working during like kind of the.com era and during that era you were working 50 originally name of the company, but I know that it's since become Accenture. And it's funny because I picked up the line and you said high risk strategy and just totally made me think of you and like the consulting industry, right. But, you know, so for those that aren't aware, that's a significant firm to be a part of, right. And so that's why it's, you know, people such as yourself to come out of there, there's, they're very intelligent, you're motivated, you know, how to fix things, and you've got an eye and it sounds like, you've also got this, this passion, to take things to such a deep level that like, you know, when when you pick up on something like it sounds, the healing the things that are working for you, you want to dive deeper into them, do them. And then, as it turns out, right, that's just as you're saying, a stepping stone into your next place. And so you've taken your sound healing, you've taken this journey, you're now past the sound. Sound only, right? Because you're still using some sound in what it is that you do, because it does work. It does work. You know, like you said, there are these words for calling people, you've got stuff that you know, works with specific chakras, or like you said, just areas of the body you can use like acupuncture. But now like, you're doing something new, right? And talk to us a little bit about where the sound journey and this overall journey has led you to and what it is that you're doing right now.

Katische 26:33 Yes, so to acknowledge that, yes, I started out life as a management consultant. I used to wear pinstripe suits every day, you know, I wanted to be a CEO and go to New York and never come back to long way from where I am now. And what I've learned in this journey is just to trust myself, piece by piece, you know, like literally a half an hour by half an hour. And to learn that even though it doesn't make sense logically, if I can't spreadsheet it, planet, analyze it, it's okay, it's still gonna be fine. And it will all work out in the end. So the sound was really important in getting me to trust and to tap into the spiritual world as well. So once I accessed using the singing bowls, I could tap into my connection to the angels. And so because I knew that the singing bowls were so wonderful for relaxing people, you know, in hypnotherapy, if you think of a classical hypnotist, it's a kind of a cold, cold clinical situation when you're sitting on a couch. And you either gotta have, you know, like the old fashioned movie pendulum, or something to stare at, or you just listen to the voice. And most of the time, people freak out, because they're like, I'm not relaxing enough, I don't, I don't know, if I'm really relaxed enough to trust this hypnotist to go into my memory to to find the root cause event that's been stressing me or why I'm feeling this way or whatever. When you add sound into a situation like that, what happens is that your ego self just kind of goes to the left and says, Whoa, man, it's this, this crystal singing bowl stuff, it's, you know, it's relaxing me I'm trying to find it, but I can't. And I found as a tool, it really, really helps make people feel comfortable. It really takes them deeper into a trance state, so that they can get their ego mind out of the way. And then we can look at healing them healing memories and emotions and things that are bothering them either at the subconscious or the superconscious level. So for me, sound was the thing that could help me take my clients into a really deep state. So I learned first of all, that I could take them to access memories and events from this lifetime helped clear reframe change limiting beliefs. What I learned was that the crystal singing bowls can take people so deep into a relaxed state, that they actually can access their eternal mind, this superconscious mind, which is the mind stream that has existed, always. It's the mind stream that has existed through all lifetimes. And that's the fun part. Once you start doing that, you open up everything in the world. And I didn't know that.

Brandon Handley 29:28 Right? I always, always, first of all, I always laugh at like, you know, the things that look, the things that you're doing right now just sitting here in your seat, you are creating blood, you're growing hair, you're generating cells, your body's doing, like literally trillions of activities at a time. And you are doing that right without thinking about it. So the great question I always have is why ALC you're capable of right? Yeah, you don't know about and just like you're saying, you tapped into this thing that you didn't know how to, you didn't know you could do before you could do it. But here you are doing it, if that makes sense. And, and, and so just a quick question on the eternal mind superconscious mind is that synonymous with Akashic records?

Katische 30:26 Akashic records is where you can tap into everything that you've ever thought, yes, it's a location, it's a physical filing cabinet for your brain to go to. But you it, it exists in a life between lives. So when we die, and we go back to the other side, or heaven, or whatever name your brain wants to give it right? There is a garden and a temple and a lot of university rooms and libraries and a whole section of places that you can go imagine like a city in the sky, right? The Akashic records is one section of that, which is a big mother of a library, and you have your own room in there, and all of your own books, each of those books represents a life that you've had. And you can dive into a life by the Akashic records. But your eternal mind is always with you, you don't need to go to the Akashic records to, to tap into your eternal mindstream. And the more and more work that you do with your eternal mind and understand the difference between your mind of now so contagious mind, your tissues or ego, person, personality, for this lifetime, versus the personality of my eternal soul. Your soul has its own personality, and then the personalities of your other incarnations. You can tap in and bring in resources from all lifetimes, just by being yourself in your current moment in time. So to really weed you out, I can do work and connect with my subconscious mind right? It just by being quiet, and I can bring forth skills from other lifetimes. Once I realized that I had a skill in a certain lifetime

Brandon Handley 32:27 I love it right. And Thanks for Thanks for Thanks for clearing that up for me, right? Because, you know, when you're when you're saying eternal mind, superconscious mind I'm thinking Akashic records, when you're talking Akashic records, this is a place that I can go pretty much like a library, my eternal mind, it's always with me always available once I realized and recognize how to access it. So that

Katische 32:50 Correct, correct, yeah. And you can use you can go to the Akashic records, if you want to find a specific lifetime and, and clear a specific limiting belief. But once you train your mind very clearly to work with your eternal mindstream. It's with you always. And you

Brandon Handley 33:08 I'm ready, what step one I want to do right now. How's it how's it work? Talk to me a little bit about kind of what this looks like, if, let's let's like, look, I'm writing what happens to I pick up the phone, who I call? How do we how do we start working? And what are some of the first steps?

Katische 33:25 Yeah, so some of the first things are to identify, and this sounds really beginner level, but let's just play with it. The first thing that you need to understand is what's your thought and what's not your thoughts? Okay? So and this is just a basic mindfulness concept, but thoughts and emotions are all energetic, right. And at any time, you can tap into your own thoughts, and the thoughts of your family, the thoughts of your city, the thoughts of what's happening in your part of the the world that thoughts dreams float by, and what happens is their energy and our antennas, latch on to them. And we as humans go, oh, that must be my thought. When actually it's not your thoughts. So the first thing to do is check, am I feeling an emotion or a thought? Is that mine? Or am I just picking it up from somewhere else? And when you learn to play within, and distinguish and defined between your thoughts and your emotion, so have you picked up an emotion from watching the news from driving past a hospital from How do I know how to I

Brandon Handley 34:31 mean, these things are in my head. Okay, so you know, I, you know, I think that I may have approached something similar without knowing that I'm doing it right on purpose or anything like that, but like, recognizing that like, these really aren't my thoughts. He's just like, just thoughts from like, not even they're not mine. Like this, like this isn't my thought like I've Why would I this Why would this thing even be here like

Katische 34:59 you just said Go away, not mine. Yeah, a lot of the times one of the easiest ways to do that is to be really clear with when you're triggered, and see if it's your trigger, or if it's your parents trigger. Oh, yeah, am I, because my mom told me to feel that because she was taught to feel that led to generational and a DNA based trigger. So really the basics are mastering your own thoughts and emotions, your family's thoughts and emotions, and then tapping into what's yours and what's yours of all time. And that's, that's the groundwork because it's, then you're setting boundaries and saying, I am not my thoughts, I am not my emotions, I am able to tune into thoughts and emotions, and I need to check. I am a setting solid boundaries because I I have ownership of my body in my mind, and I determined what is going to influence my life, right. And so by getting crystal clear on on your thoughts, at the conscious level, you're then allowed to access the subconscious level, which then allows you to access the superconscious level. It's kind of like a training ground?

Brandon Handley 36:11 For sure, for sure. So all right. Paying attention to my thoughts and emotions. First of all, like, for me, I'm always like, is this a thought or an emotion? Right? Step one is a thought or an emotion, then I'm like, Are these even my thoughts? Or my emotions? Or are these conditions or the these pass down? And he's generational? Is this in the news? Is that Is that what you're saying? I'm doing right?

Katische 36:42 Yeah, because this next step is so for example, with me. What I found very clearly was that sometimes my thoughts and emotions weren't from this life. They were a hangover from a previous life where I had not allowed myself permission to let go of something that had happened to me. Right. So I can tap into anger. And find the trace of it in a past life, for example, or impatience.

Brandon Handley 37:10 So and when you're talking past life, are you talking about a specific, kind of like, you know, traditional past life from a certain teaching or learning or just past life in general, right, like, and the reason why I'm just thinking, like, you know, karmic, I'm thinking, you know, Hinduism, I'm thinking Buddhists, I'm thinking, whatever, but how, what does that look like for you in past life?

Katische 37:34 I guess. So. I have studied Buddhism in this life and being Buddhist in many other lives, so quite familiar, at a soul level with that value system with reincarnation, but what I teach and talk about is the universal the galactic the entire system of reincarnation, which means life as a being an energetic being on this planet, and all planets, all time dimension spaces. And so energy, if we go back to energy, energy cannot be destroyed. Energy always exists, right? So you as an energetic form, maybe Brandon right now, but you have never not existed. And you will never cease to exist. So when I talk about past lives, I mean, well, actually, they're concurrent. But that's a whole nother conversation. There is no such thing as time other than on Earth. So everything's happening at once, which makes it more complicated. But you can tap into and understand other versions of energetic representations of yourself.

Brandon Handley 38:55 Okay, that that kind of gives me what I was looking for. Right? I was just kind of curious what you again, and you hinted at it right and talking about karmic or just kind of like these cycles of, you know, Buddhists, rebirth and whatnot. You're talking again, universal, no, specific religion or background or doctrine, just just like this is past life. This is energy at its highest level. And in its purest kind of form. That's what

Katische 39:26 I'm, what my sole mission here on in this lifetime is actually to do, which I've discovered is to teach the principles of reincarnation devoid of religion. So to strip away religion and bring it back to the energetic basics, so that we can look at and understand what is without adding dogma to it.

Brandon Handley 39:50 Fantastic. And how do you learn this? Who's teaching you

Katische 39:55 a lot of sessions up there? Yeah. So because I regularly go in and do past life regression sessions and Akashic Records sessions for myself, I walk the talk, each time I get triggered, I check in is this something that's coming up for clearing because this is my purpose, I'm different from everybody else in that I'm here to discover my stuff so that I can teach other people. And on my podcast, I showcase my past lives. Yeah, I record this session so people can read about it, I'm starting running books about it. And what I'm wanting to do is to teach people how to find is the root cause of an emotion or something that they're feeling or experiencing their life. Something that as a result of what's happened in this life, or another life. Because both of those you can break free of you can break free of whatever's holding you back, either from earlier in this lifetime, or from a repeating pattern, which is karmic, over multiple lifetimes. So I'll give you an example. I haven't got on the podcast Paco yet. podcast yet. There's gonna be an upcoming episode about frustration and impatience. So my father when he was alive, always said to me, patience is the lessons of your life Diigo patients, and I'm very impatient, I'm impatient to get things done to get results. I change things very frequently, where I live, the businesses you name and my impatience. When I truly deeply stepped back even to understand it, opened up a life as a Viking. And this Viking dude was a military commander. And he, in this particular lifetime, understood the ocean and the moon and the tides. And he was the right hand man of the Nordic King at the time, right. And they were trying to go and conquer in England. And that's like all the boats across with all the people. And the king was busy doing his wining and dining and doing an older diplomatic stuff. And I'm like getting impatient over here. And the Kings just like finally, for God's sake, we're just go now, right? And I'm like, No, don't go now the tides aren't right, Mama, you know. And because I'd been in the Kings ear. He's just got sick of me, right? We'll just do what you said. And what happened is in it's written in history, it's documented in history. The ships went out, there was a storm of all storms. And we lost 5000 men died that day. And I had to go back in and heal that impatience. And learn that it was a trait that I had carried on because I had never forgiven myself for being impatient, and for causing the death of 5000 men.

Brandon Handley 43:00 There you go. That's awesome. Right? You know, being able to kind of go back take a look at that. trace it down, find the story in reality, my guess is like you felt the story. And they like does this something that actually happened and you're able to find a story that aligned to what it was that you felt and the story that you trace down? I think that's pretty pretty exciting for you neat. So teach we're at apart and the podcasts that we kind of get to some slick spirituals feed dating, right? Like some you know, because basically, somebody's gonna somebody's gonna attend his podcasts. They're gonna be like, who cuz he she seems pretty cool. And I like her story. I like auditory stuff. I get to journey. I'm going through menopause. It'd be great to talk to somebody that understands what it is I'm going through that I could just talk to. That could be guys too, that aren't obviously going through menopause. Right. So we've got a couple questions I'd like to ask you ready? All right, spiritual Bachelorette number one. When is war justifiable?

Katische 44:17 Oh, well, as a human being, I would say never because I don't I can. I don't support violence. However, at the spiritual level, there is a reason for everything. And so was when you look at the reason that they're caught caused spiritually there is something that needs to be cleared up, or enacted or happen for humanity to learn a lesson. Most wars we come out of them and we say this will never happen again or character gets profiled and awareness is raised. Suffering is highlighted and there are things that we learn from war. If we don't learn as a civilization, we tend to repeat Get the patents again, yeah, we create another war on the same thing. And when you can take the Eagles view of war, and learn not to attach emotionally to it, and to bring yourself daily into the suffering that is caused by it, but to ensure that you are watching from a high level, learning the lessons and not involving yourself or causing or amplifying that cause of war, then you can sit a lot better with it.

Brandon Handley 45:29 So as to you know, kind of learn a lesson is basically what I'm hearing for humanity as a whole, right? Something needs to be healed. I mean, even if you kind of took it like at a galactic level or whatnot, would you look at it is almost galactic level, but like almost in the body, where you there's an infection that needs to be routed out, unhealed and all you know, your body acts your body reacts. So this is just energy, galactic energy reacting to an infection and say the the human system.

Katische 46:07 Yeah, the human is infected with the need for violence. We're very violent society, we're full of anger and hatred. And we haven't learned those lessons. We're also a very divisionary society, we create categories, judgments, and we based each other based on the color of our skin. And our beliefs are where we are born our income levels. And if you look at our religious beliefs, if we look at all wars there, it's all about bias, and misunderstanding that we all don't. It's a fundamental misunderstanding about the level of connection of humanity, and that we are all from source. Therefore, when you hurt one person, or judge one person, you hurt another, that there should be no such thing as discrimination, categorizing or bias at all. So that's what was teaching us.

Brandon Handley 46:54 Right? And that's a listen, it's a tough one to learn. And it's a tough one to apply, even as you make progress along your spiritual journey, at least has been my you know, it's tough to not judge something very tough, you're not doing it on purpose, right? And it's tough to not separate yourself from yours, you're acting spiritual, and you're not acting spiritual. I mean, where are you coming? You're very material, I'm very spiritual, you know, that kind of thing. So even even along this journey, of becoming and being your spiritual self and connecting, there's, there's still that division. What do you recommend? What are some things that you liked? Or have helped you to? With that, with that challenge?

Katische 47:43 Stop watching the news. And stop sharing suffering. Suffering, suffering is part of the human experience, you know, we all have terrible things. We all have access now to hyper zoom into what's happening in countries that were nowhere near. Yeah. So we can send out love and blessings and do whatever we can, in our capability to help if it's our path, and this is not playing down or making wrong people who go in and have an active role in war. That's, that's their role for this lifetime. But if you know clearly that your role is not to be involved in war, right? If you're not to be in, in general, in an army or nurse, or, you know, on the ground, you have to focus like this. Straight on and say, Is this part of my soul challenge? Is this part of what I'm here for? No. So detracting and worrying about and moaning about and sharing about suffering, where I can do nothing, it's out of my control, only drags my vibration town, and takes me away from how I am here to serve. So stop being distracted, know that the right people who are meant to help in those situations are being called and they're going, you know, there are people that are just like, off there, and they're there to help. If you're not called in that way, please, for the love of God, focus on what you're called to do. Let those who are meant to do it, do it and be the spiritual server that you are meant to be in your realm. Stay in your park is basically it. Stay in your field of vision.

Brandon Handley 49:28 I'm in 100% agreement. Now, that being said, I'm sure there's plenty people out there, like how could you turn a blind eye at all this suffering? Right. And I think it goes back to what you're saying, though, too, is like, if there's nothing that you can do about it, you shouldn't attach yourself to it. Like is it? Is it great that that was happening? Not really, right? Are people suffering because of it? Absolutely. If we look at it from the perspective that you shared today that this is healing A hurt. This is a lesson. You know, that's one perspective. And this is one that I think a lot of people do, they will super easy to see that if you're not directly involved, kind of Yes. agreed with that as well. At the same time, what can we do to? You know, I think as on look not necessarily even onlookers where what can we do then to help others to create a better life? Right? By not focusing on on all that other pain and suffering and hurt? Where can we? Where can we make some other things better, right is that kind of where,

Katische 50:35 because if you focus firstly on yourself, which is the opposite to what we're taught in society, focus on your own self focus on the people in your immediate vicinity, it's the outward effect, what you do to yourself, it ripples out, which is the best thing that you can do for anyone. Because trust me, if you if you aren't feeling called to war in this lifetime, you've probably been in the thick of it in many lifetimes. You've done your service. I know I've done my service in many, many, many occasions. And this is not the time this time. I've been there. I've done that. And I've lost my last my life before. So that's how I look at it. That's how it helps me.

Brandon Handley 51:13 Well, what's the perfect like, perfect person to be talking to about this next one, spiritual Bachelorette number one? What happens after you die?

Katische 51:25 Well, what happens after you die depends upon your beliefs. Hmm,

Brandon Handley 51:29 how's that? How God told me what

Katische 51:33 it does to him when you believe so what you expect to see. But generally, if I was to give you the stereotypical experience of what I've seen with my clients, is that the, the, and I've seen it with my father because my father died. And I watched him die because he had terminal prostate cancer, and I was beside him when he died. So I've seen the physical body stop functioning organ by organ, I have seen the last fluids leave the body, I've seen the mouth open, the eyes closed, and the spirit leaves the body, I've physically seen the spirit leave the body. So not something you can make out once you've seen it, you are changed forever. And it's the greatest privilege on Earth to be there when somebody dies, to Spirit then then looks for the light. Depending upon you and your mindset and your frame, it'll be an angel, a dove, a rainbow, a bridge or a tunnel. And you've your spirit floats up on high, you have this eternal mind stream, you are now just mindstream you're just energy. So you can see yourself being the dead person, the body that's wherever you are, right? You then adjust so to speak to being just this consciousness, this energetic being, then you look for the light or whatever you've been looking for. And you go towards it, it's like a magnet, you're drawn towards it, you cannot help it. And then you go upwards. And you are greeted by an angel, a family member or a loved one a guide somebody who then takes you for a life review, which is where you look down upon your life. You review what happened in your life, and depending upon what kind of person you were there for the life, you will feel every emotion that you inflicted on other people, you will feel the ramifications of all of the actions that you had in that lifetime. There is no one up there to judge you. It's you judging yourself against what you set as a criteria for learning in that lifetime. What you needed to experience what you're supposed to do. Once you've gone through that, you know,

Brandon Handley 53:50 cuz he's right there. I gotta pause right there because it sounds like I get a performance review at the end of this one. And that right there for me it would be straight hell, I hate performance reviews.

Katische 54:05 You performing your review on yourself? It's not God. It's not anybody with

Brandon Handley 54:12 you, but it's me who's like here's all the things you said you wanted to go there and do it and I already know me I'm like, well Brandon, you forgot to do this. You didn't do that you didn't act in accordance to like all the things. Alright, so go move on.

Katische 54:26 So it gets a bit lighthearted though, because the you the higher self of you, the EU of all time, knows and loves you unconditionally. So the EU of all time actually has a bit of a joke with you off of facts like Brennan was sorry, delete that out. But you know, we've done this 72 times how many more times you want to do it? I know. I know. I know. Right? And what happens is that because the because it's an unconditional space of love, you then get taken to healing, a room of healing, which is according to your needs, auditory needs. Visual needs whatever, exactly what you need to heal your experiences. And then you bring in your soulmate. So the people who agreed to work with you in this lifetime, who are key players in the lifetime, you're like, Ah, cool, I'm having a beer at the pub, man. Geez, you're a nasty person, you know, or whatever you like, the mind opens because you like, you, ah, man. And then you go off to the loo University rooms and you learn the skills that you didn't have for this lifetime to like, essentially upgrade.

Brandon Handley 55:36 Right? That sounds like fun. Absolutely. So thanks for listening, you have any performance reviews? I was like, oh, man, I hate filling those things out. It's always worse. How did you think you did? Well, you know, I could have done better. You know, I give myself a three out of seven, whatever, you know what I mean? Which is, it's okay. It's honestly, in the end, it's being honest with yourself and about what really happened and just kind of taken. Can we go to the beginning of kind of what we talked about here. So thought or emotion, we just take it as, as objectively as we can and be like, alright, well, that was sure wasn't how I thought it was gonna go down. Right? Or that went exactly the way I wanted it to. And here's what went well. And here's what I'd like to do more of next time or do differently next time. So thank you so much for sharing that with me and the audience. So yeah, who should be reached out to you who you know who's like the ideal client for you right

Katische 56:35 now. The ideal client for me is somebody who has reached a pass in her life where they're like, I have tried everything. And it's not working. I'm not doing I'm not achieving what I thought I would achieve. Something's holding you back. And I have tried lots of different healing modalities. I have searched my conscious mind. And there's something more than I'm not breaking through on that. I'm your girl, because I'm the one that can tap into this superconscious mind and say, Alright, let's have a deeper look.

Brandon Handley 57:09 Yeah, so beyond taking you beyond. So where can people find you? Where can they do reach out with you? What's the best way to contact?

Katische 57:17 Best way is to go to qatif.com. So Ka t i s c h e.com. And go listen to the podcast. You'll find out pretty quickly by listening to the podcast whether you resonate with me or not.

Brandon Handley 57:29 Right. Well, thank you so much for being on today. I really enjoyed it.

Katische 57:32 Thank you so much for having me. I

Intro Guy 57:36 really hope you enjoyed this episode of the spiritual dove podcast. Stay connected with us directly through spiritual dove.co. You can also join the discussion on Facebook, spiritual and Instagram and spiritual underscore Joe. If you would like to speak with us, send us an email there Brandon at spiritual dove.co And as always, thank you for cultivating your mindset and creating a better reality. This includes the most thought provoking part of your day. Don't forget to like and subscribe to stay fully up to date. Until next time, be kind to yourself and trust your intuition.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Melissa Drake is the author of The Orgasmic Entrepreneur: Discover the Sweet Spot of Love, Sex, and Business by Simply Being YOU, Sacred Medicine Integration: A Companion Journal Supporting Ceremonial Medicine Experiences, and TranscenDANCE: Lessons From Living, Loving, and Dancing.

She's also a TEDx Speaker with 25 years of climbing the corporate ranks and a decade of entrepreneurial experience.

Her TEDx Talk, "The Dance of Collaboration," presents fresh insights on the benefits of collectively beneficial collaborations.

As the founder of Uncorped Influence, Melissa helps like-minded businesses and individuals find solutions and go further than they thought possible.

Connect with Melissa here: https://uncorpedinfluence.com/

High Lights

The importance of finding out who you are and what you are.

2:56

There's a time and a place for fame.

17:19

Stop Fixing Yourself:.

21:38

Who were you before you entered the storm? –.

28:53

Working with people to address their limiting beliefs first.

37:08

What is our greatest distraction? Fear or doubt?

45:38

Intro Guy 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general, you're so limited thought process Rest assured, you are not alone. The world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the question you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world the people in it? Most importantly, how do I proceed? Now moving forward? We don't even have all the answers, but we sure do love living in the question. Time for another hit of spiritual with your host, Brandon Handley. Let's get right into today's episode.

Brandon Handley 0:43 Hey there spiritual dope. I'm on here today with my special guests, Melissa Drake. And before I launch into even like the bio right, Melissa, thanks for getting your bio. There's not too long a. That's always nice. Sometimes I get like a full book. And that's okay, too. I'm just we met. We did like an Instagram thing together with Jeremy Snowden. So you and I connected to Jeremy Snowden. And we did like some Instagram work earlier. That's right, right. So I think that was last time I didn't much work there too. So we connected through there. And it was really cool to connect and see you do your work. And as we all kind of got together to support each other and go through that Instagram challenge. So we met there. And so Melissa is the author of the orgasmic entrepreneur discovered the sweet spot of love, sex and business by simply being you sacred medicine integration, a companion journal supporting ceremonial medicine experiences, and transcend dance lessons from loving, living, and dancing. She's also a TEDx speaker with 25 years climbing the corporate ranks and a decade of entrepreneurial experience. Her TEDx talk, the dance of collaboration presents fresh insights on the benefits of collectively beneficial collaborations. As a founder of uncorked influence, Melissa helps like minded businesses and individuals find solutions and go further than they thought possible. You're right there. It's right there that's sacred and perfect. So Melissa, so I look at us as like these conduits for universal energy, call it whatever you want. So here, you and I are. And when we get together on this podcast, we'll have a great conversation. But it's really for the benefit of the end user they're gonna have and listen to this good, they're gonna hear something that we're not even, we're not even talking about, right, like this is gonna, it's gonna be a message that can only be delivered through you to them. Right now, what is that message?

Melissa Drake 2:56 Oh, wow. Well, I think the message is related to the conversation and the fact that it's all in the moment, and that different people bring up different perspectives of us, and how important it is to really figure out who it is we are, and what we're here for, and how we can bring that power. And not necessarily power, but just that essence, to help people. And to, as you said, be that conduit to help people advance in whatever that way is for them. And knowing that it's different for every single person.

Brandon Handley 3:38 Yeah, it's so great when when you connect with different people, they see you in ways you pletely different Yes, you never imagined right. You're like wow, you that's what you saw. And you're like, I'll take it or Whoa. But I think it also illustrates to you how, like, how versatile you actually are, you're like, Wow, I never saw myself in that light. And here I am. And this is this is somebody else's perception on me. I never even never even thought which I think is which I think is great. And then you know who it is and what we are and you shied away from power. And I think that I think that we get we especially in this space of like spirituality and your mind your P's and Q's buster. Like you call it. Which word do you pick? I mean power, but I don't mean power. I'm not sure if you're familiar with David Hawkins power versus force book.

Melissa Drake 4:37 No, I haven't. So really with him as a person but not the book.

Brandon Handley 4:40 Yeah. So I mean, it's it is it's a dance right? Of Yes. Which words make the right sense, but I think the essence of who you truly are is actually quite powerful, right? And once you've Once you tap into that, like you're able to share it and you know, it's Get the essence of who you are, is that power that's surging through you that you are the conduit for? Right?

Melissa Drake 5:06 Yes, all of us are. And sometimes it's really hard to own that power. And when you get in these, these relationships in these conversations, and people reflect that power to you, and they say things like, well, this is who I thought you are. And you're like, I didn't know that. And it's just, I love that continual opening the continual process of figuring out who it is we are. Because I was a person who, before I was 43 years old, I had no idea who I was, I simply did what was expected of me what was told of me what I thought others wanted me to be. And then suddenly, I was like, Oh, this is all a lie. And then just had to completely rebuild myself from the ground up. And I would say somewhat advanced age. And then I look at my son who's 26, who never had that issue. He's just always been himself. And that was just a beautiful, a beautiful thing.

Brandon Handley 6:11 So it's interesting. I always kind of reflect on like, the Bible for one reason, and that's like that was talking about, like, the 40 days of this that the other thing and the age of 40. Right, give or take something something happens to us as as humans, right? Yeah. Do we blossom? Do we have, you know, self realization do we have? What do they call an existential crisis? Do we, you know, something happens, right? I think I think that we, as Alan Watts calls it, I think we're peopling were playing. And it's like, we're at a stage where we don't recognize but we recognize it like innately, right. So truthfully, we're like, we connect with it. So you get to this spot where like, you realize kind of everything's a lie, or some necessarily everything is a lie. It's like, it's not aligned with me. It's no longer it's no longer aligned with you. And like, you can now like, you realize you can make these choices that you weren't making before, right? It's kind of what it sounds like. And that's exactly it. Yeah. Right. And then it's like, and then you start to realize that like, Well, yeah, walk walk us through, like even recognizing that space, like, was there something leading up to that for you? And then, you know, what happened during that transition? Right? Or, you know, what happened during that transformation?

Melissa Drake 7:47 Okay, so yeah, Something definitely happened to me, a lot of things actually happened to me. And it wasn't until the universe hit me upside the head with a two by four that I finally woke up to it, like, I spent a lot of times to severely depressed. So much so that I rarely got out of bed. I lost both of my parents in the same year, my son went away to college. And then I got really, really sick with two really horrible, concurrent illnesses. And then I was like, Okay, so maybe it's time for me to do things a little differently. And I started, that's when I actually started dancing. And that's what helped bring me to life and understand what was going on in my world. And then I lost my corporate job after 25 years. And so I had like this perfect storm of really not so great things happen to me. But I call it the blessing that wasn't even in disguise, because suddenly I had a clean slate. And I could make new choices and do what I wanted to do instead of what was expected, or what I had always done. And so it was really a beautiful opening, that didn't look or feel so beautiful at the time. But it was an awesome opportunity for me to just say, who am I? What am I here for? And what do I want to do? And when I lost my job, I was like, I want to write, I've always been a writer in some capacity. And I want to help end the stigma of mental illness. And that was, that was my focus. And I have curated my, my life and my career around that focus. Had I not lost my job? I'm not sure that would have happened.

Brandon Handley 9:38 Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that I think that um, I think that that's always the case, right? Not always the case. But it's often the case where you're like, What do you mean my job at 25 years is gone. There's probably like, a little bit of anger, a little bit of resentment, even with your parents, even with your parents passing to like, yeah, you guys still need you like, what do you think? What do you think you're going for?

Melissa Drake 10:00 Yeah, and I felt so young to be an orphan. I mean, I wasn't even 40 yet. And to not have parents was wasn't challenged.

Brandon Handley 10:07 Yeah. And then and then all at the same time, you've got your son going to school too, which is like, you've done this thing you've probably identified with being this mother and being the ER and all these things, and you have all these identities being ripped away.

Melissa Drake 10:24 They were and they were also a distraction. Like, they kept me from looking at who I was, because I was codependent ly taking care of everyone else. And then suddenly, all I had was me staring at myself in the mirror being severely sick. So I was an easy choice at that point.

Brandon Handley 10:42 Are you able to talk about this sickness illness? Either that's

Melissa Drake 10:48 kind of gross like to have the worst illnesses you could possibly have one was related to my menstrual situation and which cropped up out of nowhere. I had to have a full hysterectomy to rectify that. And the other was I undiagnosed digestive disease that caused me to lose 110 pounds in nine months. Wow. Wow. So

Brandon Handley 11:09 those two combos,

Melissa Drake 11:10 like those are two of them, you know, just really, it's happening at the same time. And it really knocked me out. Yeah,

Brandon Handley 11:20 yeah. So I mean, you you're like, everything's just quite literally gone to shit. Like, it's like, it was a big, right, like, you're like, I don't even like my wife is always like, she'd be like, I couldn't possibly like she was like, I couldn't possibly. So I mean, literally, like, this is like, nine months, I'm sure like, I couldn't possibly but like everyday, you kept getting back up and charged and forth. And kind of getting through it. To explain to me like this dancing, like, you know what type of dancing is like, doing in here that's helping you through this.

Melissa Drake 11:53 So I, I met some people online. And we just happen to like the same dance club. And we started going to this dance club, I started a group of women and one of the things I noticed is that when I'm dancing, I'm in my body. And I have spent so much of my time up here around and dissociated. So I didn't even realize that at the time that when I was dancing, I was grounding. And I was being present, it's one of the few times where I'm actually present and in my body. And that was actually the healing modality, I thought it was dance, I thought it was the club. And it really isn't either of those things. It's its presence, it's being embodied, and just being in the moment. And so when I, I lived in Iowa at the time, and so when I lived there, it was all about going to the club, and they only open on the weekends and all that good stuff. And then when I moved to California, there's all sorts of new opportunities here. One being ecstatic dance, which is just where everyone's in their own little world, doing whatever they just moving, like literally moving, shaking your body getting the energy out of your system. And that is such a powerful healing modality and because it's, you're obviously present, but you're also releasing the trauma and the sort of energy in your body at the same time. And that was, that still is today one of the most advanced healing modalities that I have. And I'm, I've done nearly all of them, especially in California, there's so many fun things to do and try here.

Brandon Handley 13:29 Yeah, it's all available there. Right? It's all available. And you're like, like you said, You're right outside of LA. So you got you got access to, to the stars. Um, so, you know, talk to me a little bit about, you got a couple of books out, right. You know, talk to me about what you're writing, what you've written, and a little bit about what went into those.

Melissa Drake 13:55 Thank you. Sure. So the first book transcendence, I actually, I started taking private dance lessons to learn how to be led, because I like to kind of be in charge and be controlling sometimes. And so what I what I learned through that was that it was the best therapy I ever had, I'll just say that it was literally the best therapy I ever had. And I likened it to being led by the universe, our life, there's one big dance with the universe. And so what happens when the universe gives you a job loss after 25 years? How would you continue that dance with life? And how do you get up and flow and just learning about the energy between dance partners and then bigger with with God or the universe as your dance partner? What does that look like? And so the the real theme of that book is allowing the universe to lead your dance with life. And when it doesn't look so great. How do you manage that? And then the next book that I wrote. And interestingly, the very day I uploaded transcendence, I lost a very lucrative client. And so I had the opportunity then to test the theories, which is, how am I going to let the universe lead this stance, which led me to the next book, the orgasmic entrepreneur, which started with a theory I had about data, who was listening to a podcast and this man was talking about data and how important it was and how it shows people how that how you care, and that he was very meticulous, even referred to data as a love language. And I thought, I bet data geeks are the best lovers. Because they're always looking for the sweet spot. And growing up in direct mail, I know that even when you find the sweet spot, you never stop looking to improve your results. And so that's kind of how the idea for that one started. And it's really a look at the the relationship between business and intimacy. But the final thru line of that book is about being yourself in every aspect. So whether you're on a date or your lunch with a friend, you're with your family, or you're doing business, are you showing up as you are? Are you being yourself? Are you being authentic? And are you being vulnerable? And that matters, that you know who you are. Because if you don't know who you are, it can show up as you. And one thing that's particularly important, I think, in today's world is that we all have this online persona. And does that match with who you are as a person, I had a client that I worked with for five years before I actually met them in person. And she said to me, You are the same person, online as you are here in my presence. That was my favorite compliment. Like she was just really, really powerful to me and versus in the corporate world where I was one person at work, which is highly productive, highly successful person. And then at home, I spent seven years in bed. I I mean, I literally went to work. And then I came home went to bed. And that's it. So there was zero integration of my life.

Brandon Handley 17:19 And I always I liken that to the matrix, right. There's there's Neo, and Mr. Anderson, right. We have this book on you, Mr. Anderson. So like, you're you're this person productive, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And Eric, could be anybody. Right? Yes. Yeah. You're a cog? Yes. And, ya know, you go in, and you and you do do good. And then like, you go home, and it's like, you've got the sun, nothing. Well, you've got nothing and or you've got this whole other life that you really, really want. And it's like, yeah, it's like, never there. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's, I mean, that's powerful. Right. But I love that. You, you have this online presence that you're talking about, and being that person through and through everywhere you go. Yeah, I think you know, you love to hear your opinion. I think there's a time and a place to kind of and maybe not, man, because we've done it for so long. This, this, you got to be this person and go do that thing. And you'll get these results and like you go and you do it, but like it maybe you do get the results, but what's the cost

Melissa Drake 18:40 to fame? So it's important. Is

Brandon Handley 18:43 there still a place for it? Is there still a place for for that? Do you feel like maybe you need it all that shit to get to where you are today?

Melissa Drake 18:50 100% I, I'm embarrassed to admit it. But 100% I needed that shit. Because like the I think it's Oprah's quote that the universe will send you messages and you know, whispers they start as a whisper. And if you don't listen, you'll ultimately get a screen. And I needed this screen to wake up. Yeah, so I definitely needed I don't regret it.

Brandon Handley 19:15 But or call you and tell you that. Hey, girl.

Melissa Drake 19:23 No, she hasn't called me yet. Not yet. But the but the last book that I wrote that I'm really happy about. And I wrote it in collaboration with other people is sacred medicine integration. And that was something after I wrote the other two that I really kind of delve into plant medicine. And the thing about plant medicine is that you get some really beautiful insights and you learn things about yourself and about the environment and about the collective consciousness. But if you don't take the time have to sit with and integrate those things and actually take action on what you learn. It doesn't really matter. Like it just kind of goes in and out and you get you get stuck in a loop. And my first medicine experience was combo. And we had a lot of people in one room,

Brandon Handley 20:21 what is that I'm sorry,

Melissa Drake 20:23 I'm sorry, combo is a it's a it's a frog poison. And they actually like pierce your skin. It's almost like a cigarette burn on your skin. And then they apply this, this combo. And it instantly drains your your system. It's an energetic and physical purge. So you instantly start throwing up, like it's just

Brandon Handley 20:50 gonna give you somebody that,

Melissa Drake 20:52 you know exactly. Well, you know, that's interesting, who would sign up for this? And I'll tell you that the first day I was there, and we're going around the room, and everybody's talking about why they're there and why they signed up. And one of the gentlemen said, I'm doing this because I'm better me is better for everyone. And I thought, how cool is that, like that? There are people that are really willing to do this work so that they're better not just for themselves, and not because they want to manifest money or whatever. But to be better people. Yeah. And so it's, it's a really great cleanse for your body and for your energy, and for your mind, all of those things. And I've done, I've done Bufo as well and psilocybin, and those medicines.

Brandon Handley 21:38 You got the you got the South, you got the South California connection. I do SoCal connect, I do. So you know, I would love to do a couple things here, right. Let's hit on that for a second. I'm going through a book right now. Oh, my God. That's each book called stop fixing yourself. Right? In my question, is this right? And, you know, either way, it doesn't really matter. Are we trying to get better? Or are we trying to discover the truth of who we are?

Melissa Drake 22:15 I think we're trying to discover the truth of who we are. But it's under the guise of getting better. Because we and I'll tell you, I love the title of that book. Because I worked really hard at fixing myself for a couple of years, only to find out that I'm not really broken that I'm fine. And it's really important. For somebody else, no, no, not at all. Not at all. No, thank you for that. No. It's really more about accepting the parts of ourselves that we don't necessarily like the dark the shadow shadow work. Yeah. So it's, it's not wrong. It's not bad. It's just needs to be integrated. It needs to be seen and heard and acknowledged and accepted. It's not something I was like, oh, let's fix it in like a surgical team. Let's just let's just get rid of it. And that's how it works.

Brandon Handley 23:11 Right? Ya know, and that's super powerful. To really accept yourself truly, wholly and fully, so that you can operate at 100% versus like, I'm not this 50% This this baggage is no good for me. Right. But I'm hauling it everywhere I go anyways. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah,

Melissa Drake 23:34 exactly. It's exhausting.

Brandon Handley 23:36 Let's talk about I have never had frog poison. I've never Bufo I don't know. Let's talk about like the differences. And I think what I would love to hear is what are you learning from these different plant medicines? Right like yeah, what's your what are the set and settings you have to let's let's get down into that because all right, we got frog poison. Which is like you're showing up to throw up?

Melissa Drake 24:09 Yes, you are.

Brandon Handley 24:12 Bufo is what was it the empty? Okay. Is that crystallizing, you're smoking it or is it something else? Okay, so that's like the 10 minute trip businessman. So

Melissa Drake 24:24 about 20 gap. It's about 20

Brandon Handley 24:28 to 20 minutes, shrooms psilocybin, we don't want to call it surance because they're always like up in arms these days. Go ahead. And LSD mescaline? Not yet. Yeah. So they are on the they are on the to do list. Got it.

Melissa Drake 24:53 So it presents itself Yes.

Brandon Handley 24:57 I'm sure that you're in South LA area. They will present itself

Melissa Drake 25:02 safely, safely and in a proper setting setting. Right. Right for me is always a ceremony.

Brandon Handley 25:09 So there's a there's a woman I read her quite a few of her books. Listen to him actually. Florence Scovel. SHINN? Yes. Yes. With with grace and imperfect ways. So so there you go. Oh, that? Yes. So yeah, walk me through, I guess like, what are these ceremonies looking like? And what are you getting out of? What do you feel like? Which ones are having like, the greatest impact on you how they helped me along the journey? Yatta Yatta, yatta.

Melissa Drake 25:37 Okay, so every one is different. Every ceremony is different, every experience is different. And they all kind of work together. So when, when I do boufal, it's, it's combo first. And then they kind of go together. As far as when I'm learning. All sorts of things like a lot of first of all, the masculine feminine integration, being able to integrate those two sides of myself. And as with everything, it's a process, it's not a one and done kind of thing. It's, you have the insights you've worked through. I specifically designed questions to help journal, what what are the insights that you got from the medicine and I have written just pages and pages, every time I get out of ceremony, I spend the entire next day writing about what came up for me what visions I had, how I felt, what the experience was like, there was a lot of information related to generational trauma. I even had some suspected, repressed trauma come up as well. And just, you know, to spending time with myself, questioning what happened. And then really journaling on that and what that means. And I've had family members read my journals, after ceremony, and one, my one of my cousins, who's read all of my books said, I've never related to anything, you've written more than this. Just because there were so much related to my family and the way that I grew up and how it impacted me. But I would say any kind of medicine and I even have, like, I'm really sensitive to medicine, so I even have an out of body experience when it comes to cannabis. Like I just have these crazy, crazy insights. But whenever I do medicine, for me personally, it's always like the files in my brain are shuffled, arranged. And I'm perfectly stored. So much so that I can't stop laughing, because I'm so grateful for it. Like, all the bad stuff, the shitstorm that we talked about earlier, I'm like, oh, okay, I see. Now, I see how that's connected. And how that led me here. And how this connected me to that. And it's just this, this beauty that I can't unsee and I just feel so together. I feel like everything makes sense when I do medicine.

Brandon Handley 28:11 Tell me just tell me a little bit about your corporate life. Like what was your role there?

Melissa Drake 28:19 I had many, many roles. I started as a, like a data entry clerk at low, low level, and I worked up to being a director who recorded to the CEO,

Brandon Handley 28:29 my direct mail business,

Melissa Drake 28:32 insurance, actually. And so direct mail was a large part of that. My last role with him was for 10 years I did competitive intelligence and also partnerships. So that's, in large part where my TEDx talk on collaboration came from. And yeah, gotcha.

Brandon Handley 28:53 It's always interesting, right to see. What's, what's the approach to the experience of the plant medicine is right, like so what? What and who were you before you entered the storm?

Melissa Drake 29:10 Yes. And I'll tell you that, that my son is the one who opened my mind to medicine in the first place. When he was a youngster, younger than he should have been. He was telling me about these medicines or his plants, and saying, you know, really important people have used them to open their mind. Sure, and they're really successful now. And I was like, huh, and I didn't judge him. I didn't get angry. I was just I, I consider I didn't get high till I was 43 years old. So these were things that I just I never would have considered

Brandon Handley 29:44 at all right, right. Well, and listen, it's it's interesting. I think that the headlines that are out there right now, eliminating some of the fear behind, you know, what we've been, you know, taught up until like this point, you know, drugs are bad. Okay, type of thing would now it's like,

Melissa Drake 30:09 alright, well, John Does our bags.

Unknown Speaker 30:13 What if we

Melissa Drake 30:14 are a different story? Sure.

Brandon Handley 30:16 Like what? And not for nothing like 90% and almost all the drugs are out there derived from some type of plant based so there's there's generally a plant that does like what that, you know, can do when, you know you have this approach, so we're like, it's it is, again, plant medicine even kind of absolves like this other barrier right to that drug. I'm not taking drugs, man, I'm nothing. This is plant medicine, y'all. Right, right. Right. And so, you know, which, which is great. I'd love to hear you. There's a couple, I'd love to hear sounds, you said you had some generational trauma came up for you. I would love to understand like, what was the setting and the space that was there for you. So that you could be safe that you felt safe in that space? Absolutely.

Melissa Drake 31:17 So it was actually just really beautiful and serendipitous the way that it worked out, I went to a ceremony and I ran into a woman who I just felt really compelled to talk to. And she happened to be there with her son who was there. He has the same name as my son and is the same age as my son. And he had been dealing with addiction and spent five years in the jungle learning these medicines. And so he was the person who administered them for me, and his mother was there and his father was there. So I also had, you know, in addition to having this, this person with direct experience with the medicine with the tribes, his family was there. And so it was almost like not almost it was like, he was a by proxy for my son. She was my mom, he was my mom. So it was almost like a family constellation at the same time. And it was it was in a private home. It was a private ceremony. It was very, very beautiful. And the way that it was was set. And the way that I was cared for the way that I was loved. It was it was just, it was an amazing, amazing experience

Brandon Handley 32:36 here because I think that that's really important to make sure that you know, not only do you have somebody that is well versed in what they're doing, yes. Not just somebody who's been like, I took turns like five times I'm ready. Let's do this. Let's do this, y'all, everybody, everybody. And then and then have like, you have that space created for you. So if and I don't know, like if you had the generational trauma, like if there was a breakdown for you or not, right? Well, there was lots of breakdowns. So making sure that like, you know, I've heard of I think events where there's so much like too many people, right, trying to get

Melissa Drake 33:20 my first one there were 40 people in a room, it was way too many people like way, way, way too much. But also, that's what caused me to write the book because the shamans are the people delivering the medicine, the medicine is their specialty. But there needs to be integration afterwards. So how do you help people with an integration and do it in a way that is feasible for everyone? We even have a free download of the book with the questions for people to access so that they can get

Brandon Handley 33:51 it right. Like I mean, you know, integration agreed. I think that everybody's everybody's in agreement that integration is essential to plant medicine experience. Let's talk about let's use your generational trauma one as an example, like how did you integrate some of those lessons in your life? What did you do to integrate the lessons he took away from that?

Melissa Drake 34:18 So the workbook is designed to actually pull out those questions. There's, there's a whole series of questions, and then a 30 day action plan. So the first thing for me for integration is just taking the time for myself, to go through the questions to spend all that and I've even used these questions for things like I went on a wellness retreat last year where there was no medicine involved, but it was still really powerful. The experience was powerful enough that I needed to spend the time to integrate that. So just from and because I'm a writer, journaling is what comes easy to me. If you know that There are many ways to integrate. And I also have a community that I talk to about and share the writings with and communicate with.

Brandon Handley 35:13 So what would an example, one or two examples be of those questions?

Melissa Drake 35:19 Well, let's just, let's just pull it up and see what? Sure. So it's, it's designed into there's before ceremony. And some of the questions are what are you committed to an honoring through this medicine work? pure intent means you believe it, what do you intend to shift through this work? What constructed limitations would you like to address through the medicine? A constructed limitation is like a limiting belief that something you believe that is not actually true. For example, believing I'm not good enough is limited. In an actuality, every single person is made of the same magic with the same potential as another, therefore, this belief is constructed. So going into the ceremony before you even go, what is it that you want to want to do? What do you want to curtail? What do you want to grow? What will you say when you achieve the healing you desire right now? And then my, my favorite ones, right before so that's when you sign up? Because the ceremony begins when you sign up, right? And then right before the medicine you ask what what's the healing that you came for? What are you ready for? Speak to your higher self, your best friend, your soul, the energy is ready to support you help is available, because you ask what will you ask for? So it's basically like a really intense intention setting, a lot of people will set intention before they do medicine, but just really delving into an I will say that we wrote this after having completed a I think it was about 14 week, NLP training neuro linguistic programming. So the questions were designed specifically, to help make sure that the words the beliefs and the actions are all aligned.

Brandon Handley 37:08 Yeah, no, that's, I mean, it's powerful to combine. You know, all that psychology with with these this work, right? You know, not, not just not just oh, it's just my higher self, man, we're cool, man. It's like, you know, hey, let's, let's, let's, let's leverage some of what we've learned over the past 100 years, give or take on, like, what's working? And, yes, how can we get in there? And, you know, we'll say, it's not surgical with the mind. But it's kind of is, but you because you get in there and you are like, you're like that if you do this work before ceremony. And you're really like, you do the work. And then you get in there ceremonies like atom bomb on that shit, like,

Melissa Drake 38:03 yes, yes. And my my belief, like, what I really want to do is work with people to address their because essentially, we get what we believe, right? So if you go into ceremony, believing that you're going to get the healing you need, believing that you're going to be helped, that you're going to be built, guess what you will be, if you think it's just a pain, then that's what you're gonna get. And so I ideally want to set up a system so that people are receiving treatment for their limiting beliefs first, so that they're set up and primed and ready for the healing to be really effective. Like you said, to just drop a bomb on it and then have the most positive impact that you can.

Brandon Handley 38:46 Yeah. I love it. Definitely great stuff. You gotta have doing doing that. I think ahead of time is a primo. Yes. Good stuff. So all right, I go in there. I do my I do my pre work. I'm geared up. I go in there. I have an amazing experience. What happens next? What do I do? Like and by amazing experience, I'm like, I was in there. I was like, surgical commander, like my mind was my mind and I owned it.

Melissa Drake 39:16 So for me, my amazing experience is rolling around on the ground and puking and screaming and crying and laughing and

Brandon Handley 39:25 no, you can keep that one that is mine. Around a vomit, that's a promise. I intend to keep. So amazing experience whatever that means to you. And then you know, what is the integration starts to look like right? So what happens?

Melissa Drake 39:45 Number one is rest. Come home and rest. Meditate, breathe, be present. I like to spend time in water whether that's the pool or the hot tub and ocean. Rounding. walking barefoot on the earth is a beautiful thing. aim. And then for me, I usually start the next day writing, I spent an entire day writing. And then the book is actually designed to for every day, too, because a lot of times, I mean, I'll get the bulk of what happens the next day. But a lot of times, the insights don't come until days later or weeks later. And so just monitor, I'm a huge documentation freak, as you can imagine, as a writer. So just writing what came up for me like, oh, okay, maybe this is related. And, you know, you get these just little segments of insights over time, and then just keeping track of them. Yeah. And the other thing that's interesting, so I always do my journaling online, and I do a save as the prior version. And it's really interesting to see the growth, because the questions are designed, like you get all of this stuff out, right? You document everything. And then at the end, you know, like, what are the learnings you get, you know, for me, it's like, between five and 10 bullet points where I can really segment these are the learnings that I got. And what's really interesting to see is from one journey to the next, how the learnings evolve over time, and how I can tell I have learned from what I did last time, or this this last one that I did after a mushroom journey was okay, this is the same thing, like I'm still in the same spot, like I had the same same learning which is good because it's, you know, it's a process that I'm, I'm learning more about that. But also this is this is an area where I need more exploration. And so that we have a couple of different versions of this book. This one is designed so that you can do 11 journeys in one book. So all of your stuff is in one place.

Brandon Handley 41:51 Should it be like once a month take a month off like I mean, what's that? You know,

Melissa Drake 41:56 witness not for me to decide. That isn't

Brandon Handley 41:59 so yeah, I mean, is there a recommendation on like, how long you

Melissa Drake 42:06 know individual Yeah, it's very individual I would say that it's up to the person and the shaman like for me personally in it in two years time I've done maybe 10 journeys all together what would

Brandon Handley 42:24 you say like a couple of things that you've learned that you don't feel like you would have learned without the assistance of plant medicine

Melissa Drake 42:35 the number one thing is the ability to see how connected everything is and how amazingly supported we are by by things known and not known seen in that scene felt and felt and just knowing that that were okay. And one of the things that I wrote many years ago after after the first time I got high was the beautiful intention of every single thing like we think there's this conspiracy that everybody's out to get us and it's really just the opposite that conspiracy is everything set up for us. Yeah, and everything's happening perfectly that's the number one thing like I said all the all the files are filing in my brain and I'm like, Oh, this is so beautiful. Even the mess is beautiful.

Brandon Handley 43:22 Yeah, yeah, there's a there's a really good book on like, kind of chaos theory. Even even like as chaos evolves and does it saying it creates a beautiful pattern? Yes, yes. So so um, in and so you know, it's like, you get this you get this knowing what can I do with that

Melissa Drake 43:53 well, tell me what you mean by knowing like knowing you need to do medicine or knowing from the medicine

Brandon Handley 43:58 I'm in the medicine and I feel amazingly supported that like you know, I've got the support and I have this knowing this innate knowing what does that do for me?

Melissa Drake 44:10 So for me personally, I move different when I know that I'm protected I don't move in fear I don't move without I don't move. With hesitation I move with grace. I move with ease. I move with with understanding I move knowing that I'm supported. It's like when a little kid is jumping off the edge of the pool and he knows his dad is going to catch them he just runs and jumps in versus oh my god, I don't know what I'm gonna do and so you just move differently. When when you No,

Brandon Handley 44:46 no, that's perfect. Right? And this space does grace and ease and understanding in the space of like this knowing does know that calming because you've been in supportive environments to enhance like that. That Well, 100% money. Yeah, absolutely.

Melissa Drake 45:09 I think the medicine does part of that. But I will tell you that seven setting does as much, if not more, just knowing that people that I was with, I could feel their hearts. I know they were there for me. I know they were supporting me. It wasn't about money. In fact, it was completely donation based, and they would have done it for free if I didn't have the money. So just Yeah, that's the people the set the setting. That's huge. Absolutely.

Brandon Handley 45:38 That's awesome. Right. And I think that that that's a big takeaway, right? I mean, agrees II. Grace, ease understanding translates really into a confidence, right? Yes. Yes. To like, you know, moving forward. encouraged. Yes. So I love it. I love it. All right. Well, cool. We are kind of at a spot which I like to I like I like in these podcasts. Most it's a little bit too, like spiritual speed dating. Right, but somebody's gonna somebody's gonna tune in this podcast, you're gonna gonna be like, You know what, Melissa has to be my next spiritual date. Right. So, in that vein, let me ask you a couple questions here. He didn't want some new questions like alive, right. Spiritual Bachelorette number one. What is our greatest distraction?

Melissa Drake 46:39 Fear? Absolutely. For me, personally, I know that it has been fear I get caught up in what if it doesn't work out? What if what you know, when I when I move with the knowing there is no distraction, there is only inspiration, there is only just being guided by my internal guidance system. And when I'm worried about fear, or when I'm not present, I would say that's probably even a bigger distraction, which is fear based. If I'm not present, I'm either worried about the past, or I'm worried about the future. And just, you know, looking at all the shiny things, instead of being like, Wow, look how grateful I am for what I have right now in this moment.

Brandon Handley 47:30 Sure. Sure, that's, I mean, that's a great one, would you say? Is it fear or doubt, right?

Melissa Drake 47:38 Good distinction. They're not the same. But they're very similar. And I would say both. And I would also say that they're both limiting beliefs.

Brandon Handley 47:59 And I think this is an opportunity for, you know, looking for faith of some type, right? Like you you mentioned, I think way in the beginning of the story, you're like, hit a guy will show me shit. All right. Let's do this. Faith, I don't know and what but like, you know, I've got this theory. Here's the thing. I believe that is going to show up in this in this kind of manner, right? Yes. Okay. All right. Spiritual. Bachelorette number one. Hoo, doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. Why is there poverty and suffering in the world?

Melissa Drake 48:43 Because people don't know or understand their power, because they don't have that knowing because they don't have the confidence. Because they're, they're afraid. And I will tell you that I've had my own poverty and my own suffering. And it's directly related to a lack of belief in myself, and a lack of belief in the universe and a lack of belief in the people who support me. And when tapped into that, you know, when I'm tapped into that knowing, suffering and poverty is doesn't even show up on my radar at all.

Brandon Handley 49:26 How does that look for someone who's in the middle of it? Right? I think that's a real big challenge

Melissa Drake 49:31 is a huge challenge. So

Brandon Handley 49:35 if you Yeah, like, I mean, the question is, like, what if you showed up and told yourself, you know, hey, don't worry, everything's gonna be fine. While you were in this poverty and suffering state, what would you have said to yourself, right?

Melissa Drake 49:47 Well, that's still the truth, even when I'm in in that mess. Like when I lost my job and didn't have any idea what I was going to do. The truth was, the truth is, and always will be It's gonna be fine. Sometimes we don't want to hear that. But it is true. And I would say like, when you're going through it, the best thing you can do is just have someone by your side to support you and to see you and witness you and not try to fix it or solve it. But just be there with you until you're ready to come out. And my my son is an amazing example of that. Jeremy is an amazing example of that, of someone who just allows me to, because we kind of have to come to terms on our own time, no one can solve the problem for us. So just someone to witness what you're experiencing, and allow that to unfold in the way that is best because like I said earlier, it's great. We're gonna make it or we're not and that's okay, too. You know, I would say like,

Brandon Handley 50:54 listen, listen, I'm all in, right? I'm all in. And sometimes I might get the universe level. And here's the here's the funny thing, right? You know, here, here we are. We're on a, a tiny little ball in the middle of the universe. It's like perfectly suited for us to live, breathe, eat people. And we don't think you know, and and never, never, like, you know, never like you never, like wake up one day and be like, oh, man, the Earth is out of gas. I can't, I can't go to people today. My car, my earth isn't ready. Right? Like, you know, it's always it's always available. And you're use yourself, you pump blood, you create blood cells, you grow hair, you breathe in your sleep, and you do it all in your sleep without even like now we're doing and you don't trust that the universe kind of has your back to like, I don't know, lining you up with something that doesn't suck. Yeah, that's on you. Right. Like, that's because, again, like, you will get what you look for. Yes. Right. And so retraining yourself to look for those things the

Melissa Drake 52:13 right, it's the retraining. That's it. And I will tell you, sometimes we're more comfortable in the mess because that's always known.

Brandon Handley 52:21 We get double you know, right. Like, you may have like this big shit show of a mess, but it's your my shit show I run this big know how to operate. Yeah, right. Right. Right. And so it's like, All right, well, you don't have to, but like, not just the fear of something worse out there. There's something we're sure there's always something worse out there. But like, you know, I don't know. You make your way through it. So, so great to have you on one real quick question, right? Collab collaborative AF, what's happening behind me here? It's just like, so I mean, what, what, what is what is on the board? For those of you that are listening, she's got a board up behind her says, I'm gonna say it looks like collaborative AF. So like, you are

Melissa Drake 53:07 absolutely 100%. Right. So when I, when I released my TEDx talk, which is about collaboration, I decided my business name was going to be collaborative AF. So I did keep that for a couple of years, and then I transition to something else. So that's just my my old branding that you're looking at, but it's still

Brandon Handley 53:25 like, not not AF. No, I'm

Melissa Drake 53:29 absolutely collaborative as my my new business platform is uncorked influence as in not corporate, but having that corporate foundation.

Brandon Handley 53:41 So, you know, where can people go to find out more about that?

Melissa Drake 53:45 On corporate influence un Corp, Edie? influence.com, that's my instagram handle and my website as well.

Brandon Handley 53:55 Who would you say is like your ideal like client, like who should be they should be reaching out to you.

Melissa Drake 54:02 So primarily, I work with authors who tell stories. And so anyone, literally everyone has a book in them. But it's not so much about writing the book. One thing that I have found is that writing a book is one of the best healing modalities available to mankind. You will find all of your stuff when you write about your book. And so I'm the person that's going to be that safe space to support you through that vulnerable, share. And also package your book, edit it and make sure that it looks beautiful, and it's ready for the world.

Brandon Handley 54:36 Awesome. Melissa, thank you so much for being on today.

Melissa Drake 54:38 Thank you. It was very fun. I appreciated the conversation.

Intro Guy 54:43 Really hope you enjoyed this episode of the spiritual dove podcast. Stay connected with us directly through spiritual dove.co. You can also join the discussion on Facebook, spiritual and Instagram and spiritual underscore Joe. If you would like to speak with us, send us an email there Brandon at Spirit Waldo Darko and as always thank you for cultivating your mindset and creating a better reality this includes the most thought provoking part of your day Don't forget to like and subscribe to stay fully up to date until next time be kind to yourself and trust your intuition

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Creator of the Re-Sourcing MethodTM Jenna Smith provides a tangible framework for people to access their untapped resources in order to live a life of purpose, deep confidence, and self-trust. An in-demand speaker, professional singer, coach, and author. Jenna is known as the "real deal" to get you past trying and fixing, to fully living as your ideal self — permanently. How? Because she aligns people back to their nature: As confident, worthy, creative, successful beings. Cutting through half-baked Woo-Woo and Ra-Ra self-development, Jenna provides concrete easy-to-learn tools for tangible results that last a lifetime. Jenna Smith trained in Spiritual Psychotherapy, Ontological Coaching, Peak Performance, Oneness, as well as Shamanism and Intuitive healing from Peru, India, Africa, Ireland, and North America

• Contact Info and Links:
• Website:
• www.jennasmithcoaching.com

Follow on IG: @adventuresinjennaland

Intro Guy 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one I'm to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you can have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general appear so limited in their thought process? Rest assured, you are not alone. The world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the question you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world the people in it? Most importantly, how do I proceed? Now moving forward? We don't have to have all the answers but we sure do love living in the question. Time for another head of spiritual dove with your host Brandon Handley. Let's get right into today's episode.

Brandon Handley 0:43 One Hey, there's spiritual taupe. I'm on here today with Jenna Smith. She is the creator of the resourcing method, Jenna provides a tangible framework for people to tune into their untapped resources in order to live a life of purpose with deep confidence and self trust. An in demand speaker professional singer coach and author Jenner is known as the real deal to get you beyond trying and fixing to fully living as your ideal self permanently. Jenna has been trained as spiritual psychotherapy, Ontological Coaching, peak performance oneness, as well as shamanism and intuitive healing from Peru, India, Africa island in North America. Jenna what's going on?

Jenna Smith 1:28 It's always interesting listening to that. I'm hanging out in southern Ontario, Canada, a little snowy right now.

Brandon Handley 1:36 Well, I mean, you're lucky I love the snow, even a lot of snow. I've never really had to spend much time much further than Maine for winter, which, which was cool enough for me, I think that might be my limit. But who knows. I still like the snow and ice. Anyways, thanks for being here today. With us, we, we connected you and I connected over on pod match. I love it. It's like Tinder for podcasts are so different. And, and we get the opportunity to you know, see if there's a good fit beat. And before we hop on the call, and we did that actually, we still hopped on one just make sure was a good fit and really looking forward to the conversation to

Jenna Smith 2:18 me too excited.

Brandon Handley 2:20 So Jenna out, I always like to start these off with the whole idea that you know, you and I are conduits for your creative source source energy. I think you know, coming from shamanism, what you hear in shamanism is like being the hollow bone or something like that, right. And there's always something kind of flowing through us and whatever is flowing through us really ease isn't even for us, most likely it's for somebody else. And and there's a message that's coming through you today at this moment that somebody's gonna hear on the other end of this podcast. What is that message today?

Jenna Smith 3:01 I feel like well, when you said sometimes it's not even for you, I feel like it's also always for you. But, um, I'm feeling like freedom is an inside job is is the two and I'm hearing right now. Like just dialing in our capacity to feel free from the inside. And then how that reflect in the outside world. And to dream like dream, our dream into being versus react from what's being already there, or other people are doing, you know, to be a creator. So that's, that's the vibe.

Brandon Handley 3:43 I love it, right? The whole ideas that we're here creating our lives and, you know, one way or another, we're active participants. And hopefully we're willing, active, knowledgeable participants, creating something that we actually want in our lives versus being you know, being like, I think you said reactionary, right versus like, oh, shit, this is showing my life, I better tend to get out here freedom's an inside job, though, to your point. So I think that's a great message and a great way to start us off. So, you know, I know that we connected over the fact of you, you're, you're doing your coaching and you're in space of doing, you've done like many years of psychotherapy, you've done many years like peak performance. And you also ended up doing well call like just Aboriginal right? Healing, right. This is the the type of healing work that you'll find in native spaces. Yeah. Indigenous, there's no word. That's indigenous. So, you know, let's talk a little bit about your journey. You know, what do you think has been what has led you to this more spiritual space? Outside of the general? I'll just call it the general grind. Let's talk a bit about how you landed where you are today. And what are some things we could share with the audience? So it'll help them to step out of the grind and step into themselves, right?

Jenna Smith 5:27 Yeah, yeah, and come with it. Sometimes the language I'll use is like 3d and five d, and maybe your audience would be familiar with that. But essentially, like a 3d existence, dimensional d dimensional, you have a job, and you have to do what's in front of you. And you follow these rules, and you kind of just don't have your own voice, and you don't have any freedom and power, really, you're just doing what's in front of you. And that's it. And that's true for many people. And whereas, like a five D reality is the acknowledgement that you're co creating, and you just slowly start to step out and out and out of systemic oppression and things that aren't there to, to empower humans. So just, I just thought I'd say that in case they say 3d and 5g, but how I got here was I think I came in at five D was like wtf is happening. So I mean, nothing extraordinary. My dad worked in the salt mine, my mom was a grade one teacher. But I was always an empath. I was always feeling other people's feelings and aware of things. And I could feel at home in nature. And eventually, when I got more and more to music, and eventually that was like, Oh, that makes sense. Because that's just creator, unencumbered, like nature, music, creation, anything in that creative realm where we're the intermediary of creation, right? So I was raised Roman Catholic, though. And that, that something felt off to me when I was, you know, kneeling and sitting and standing and mumbling the thing you're supposed to say at the time, you're supposed to say it without any connection to it. And I was like, hmm, this doesn't. This doesn't make sense to me. So that's, that's sort of like, the origin of knowing that there's something else at a really young age and then life presented new things. I was in a car accident when I was 15. And sustained, like soft tissue injuries, absolutely everywhere, nothing broke, but everything hurt. And that created a sleep disturbance. So I had like, no restorative sleep and chronic pain. And that created something called prevalent algea, or chronic pain syndrome. People might be aware of that. Basically, you're just always in pain, your brain doesn't work as well, all these kinds of things. And the doctors are like, yeah, so no, this is just how it is. You're just gonna have to deal with being in pain and there wasn't any options. And again, my voice in my head was like, really, like, you know, I didn't know the other option. But essentially, that led me to learning Reiki, Reiki got me connected to the energy world, like my Reiki teacher was like, hey, I can help you. And so my teachers, so over time to make a pretty long story short, teachers came to me the more that I was receptive to them. So what I would notice is I would create this opening of like, maybe there's another way or I think there's another way, and then a teacher would come. I didn't like, seek things. Often. My teachers found me. My teachers came to me so my Reiki teacher was a synchronistic event where I mentioned the word Reiki, and then someone's like, I'm taking Reiki I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna go to that thing. It was completely non forced. They always came to me. And then with shamanism, it just made sense to me. So energy made sense. To me. Reiki made sense to me. Oh, we're energy. And it's just, you know, when something sounds right, it that there's like, yeah, this makes sense that energy can come through. And this feels good. Oh, cool. Look at how I can sense things with my hands. And I kind of always knew were there. And then just kept getting more and more refined. And then in the real world, like, oh, I should have a job. So I love singing, and I was good at singing. And I went to university for singing, because apparently, that's gonna get you a singing career, which it won't. So that's not a thing. It'll get you in debt. And then you'll be like, Oh, what's, what's the plan for this? So that led me to being a personal trainer and doing these jobs and being in that 3d world, like, oh, had to pay my rent level up, but all the while I'm doing spiritual development. And I need my shaman mentor, random guy named Chris. You know, like, he doesn't have a special shaman name.

Brandon Handley 9:51 I'm just assuming. Yeah, I mean, we all know

Jenna Smith 9:56 Chris is actually his shot. I was like, No, that's wrong. His shaman He was left foot. But normal looking dude named Chris at a music festival looks at me strangely. And I was like, what's that about? Then we did an energy exchange and he helped me put my spirit back in my body. He's like, do you want to put your spirit back in your body? Yes.

Brandon Handley 10:18 Do I know what that means? Yes, Chris. That'd be fantastic. I'm guessing you're the you're the person that does this.

Jenna Smith 10:24 Yeah, like he had a t shirt and everything. So So I actually joke about him like strange, man. I think I was 22. Now he was maybe 3040s. And I was like, oh, yeah, come back to my mom's house. So we'll do an energy exchange of bodywork

Brandon Handley 10:40 Did Did you tell your mom that that's what was happening? Oh, didn't

Jenna Smith 10:44 tell her all I'm just like these, this free creature. Luckily, my spirit guides are like, we've got to just corral this chick until we get her tuned up. So. So either way, he put my spirit back on my body we did. It was at a traditional healer, heal me lie on a table, they heal you, right. That's what I was used to. I go and get Reiki, I go and get healed, I go see a healer. This was you know, weird to kind of like Tai Chi movements. And then you access something in the spirit world as a shaman and then you can blow it, it's another way to move into the physical through your breath, to blow that energy back into where it belongs. Or to blow out energy that is not in the highest. So there's no good or bad in shamanism, it's usable energy and usable energy. So when that happened, I felt a distinct shift because a bunch of we did a heart thing. And so a bunch of ex boyfriends popped up, like, called me something is like, out of nowhere, like one week in the one week period. I had a dream about you to learn. I'm like, okay, strange, but so so it's like evidence, right? Like, this isn't a coincidence. This would not have happened otherwise. And then my actual like, fiance type person living with me left, I went back home and there was a posted, I'm, I here's the key, like insects in the city. So I was that I quit. Yeah, like, I can't like something like I couldn't do as in person. Something something and I was so devastated. But this spirit in my body new vibrational muscle that I had was like, just curious, just wandering, and not freaking out. So both happening simultaneously. So I call Chris. Um, why did you do? What, by the way, he said, you know, she said, His Spirit stuff that I now say to my clients of like, you need to see each other with new eyes, blah, blah, blah. But it was just evidence to me, it was just intangible world that was just so powerfully boom, like, superhero landing, made tangible, like this energy shift. Did that recalibrating my life to match my spirit more?

Brandon Handley 13:26 Right? Right, right, right. You energetically aligned right? Your spirit was like in your body and present and kind of an awareness of the Spirit in of itself, right? Just be like, Oh, shit, like Peter Pan, right? You So you found your shadow and you sewed it back on?

Jenna Smith 13:44 Just just just that space was filled and and and now I could see through those eyes. So sort of like bambi legs, though. Oh, I don't know what I'm doing yet.

Brandon Handley 13:57 We have to get like three or four more Disney references. And by the end of the podcast,

Jenna Smith 14:02 we'll get sponsored. I love Disney movies. And I sang right and I like talk to animals. So I'm like, I wanted to present a Disney princess like obviously there should be a movie made about me. So anyway, that introduced me to shamanism that introduced me to the world of indigenous medicine which then more again, same thing, met mon Daza, from Zimbabwe who's a peacekeeper medicine man. So cool. He was taught how to be a medicine man from his ancestors through his dreams. So dragged about all the herbs and everything his feet were hanging over riverbank, seeing all the herbs without any instruction he went and got the herbs that he Oh this looks like this and didn't know what they were. Next stream was basically an encyclopedia of feeling like this is for this in this is for that. And then people started coming. So he tells this isn't like some guy on TV trying to make money like This is like he has nothing to prove. So like this Is this legitimate other good five d, where you're given instructions, you are being trained, you're being receptive, you're participating in your training, which is also very important. And then the people come, then you're then you're a magnet, right? Then you have that magnetic quality. So then the right people came, the people who needed him came and etc, etc. So learn from him a little bit and then just followed by spirit, just follow like, oh, go to Peru. Oh, go to these things. It wasn't like,

Unknown Speaker 15:36 I should go to Peru so I can get a selfie on Machu Picchu, and then that'd be super cool. And it'd be super spiritual. Like,

Jenna Smith 15:42 none of that voice guided my journey. And I think that's why like, Now this stuff is really cool. Like, when I was in high school, I'm 39. This was not cool. Like, this was like weird. And, you know, like, oh, like it wasn't Oh, neat. Tell me about chakras. Like, oh, my gosh, you're a shaman meet like before?

Brandon Handley 16:08 It's definitely it's definitely interesting to see this kind of surge in the space. I mean, I think that Ayahuasca has a lot to do with it. I think that the

Jenna Smith 16:22 entrepreneurs, tech startups, well,

Brandon Handley 16:25 and a lot of, you know, I think, you know, plant medicine being legal now, like everywhere, right? Like, so with that coming to the forefront, there's like, it's become just a little bit more mainstream and acceptable, right. To your point to you've got tech entrepreneurs and people with high profiles, it'd be like, Yeah, I asked him for life, bro. And so, you know, it's bringing it to the forefront and making it this kind of cool thing. But what I think and you know, love to hear your part on this. And thoughts on this as well, is we got to be real careful, right? This is like a veneer, right? This is just the surface level of, you know, the spirituality, right, like just saying your spiritual wearing all the clothes and doing all this shit. Doesn't necessarily mean that you are, you know, connected to yourself. Right. I actually kind of had a question earlier. You know, where's the disconnect in general religion, right? Traditional religion, and want to make sure that we don't go down that same path again.

Jenna Smith 17:38 Yeah, I believe in there's many rivers to the same ocean. Energy about spirit religion, as long as it's like, the not the human vs. Right. So the human vs of like control and power, and we both can't be right at the same time. That is when you need to call BS because Spirit is we're all right, all the time. So there's, there isn't that war energy, there isn't any separation, there literally isn't in that frequency. And we can't get there from the mind. We can't get there from a cognitive mind.

Unknown Speaker 18:24 So yeah,

Brandon Handley 18:25 well tell me more about that.

Jenna Smith 18:28 Yeah, so the mind naturally will separate to the mind will naturally see good and bad, it's a good thing. It's like, that smells bad. Don't eat it. Like it's a good tool for life and for relationships and for unity and oneness and CO creating a world that doesn't suck. Not a great tool. Like it's limited. So the cognitive mind is bound to what has been, and what's been told to you.

Brandon Handley 18:58 And the target in mind, again, cognitive mind, again, is what's bound and what

Jenna Smith 19:04 it's bound to only what has been, and what's right in front of you. So it's what they are doing and what has been done. So it's not the place of innovation and creation and possibility. And unless someone has the courage to bring that in, but the cognitive mind is not the place where you create new things, or you create deep connection. It's a tool. It's just simply a tool, but it's not meant to be what we live from dominantly

Brandon Handley 19:37 does so now of course, the follow up question is where are we supposed to live? dominantly.

Jenna Smith 19:43 So, I believe we have the capacity to use our mind as a tool. And our body is a gateway to intelligent information through sensation and our heartspace which can also be used with emotions, it's a space. You know, when you there's no words, right? This is where music comes in, this is where poetry comes down. This is where art comes in, where it's trying to translate that thing that you can't bring words to what we try. And it's a beautiful trying, when we do it artistically. The dot space is the space of love and creation, where there is no noise of thoughts, because the thought is meant to be a tool. It's very reductionist, what I'm saying but it's, it's to help make sense of something make sense of where we could go with it. And we can increase our capacity of feeling with sensations in our body, we can increase our capacity, feeling the space of the heart and living from it more and more and, and going to fill up fill up in this space. Um, we just aren't, we're taught, we just weren't taught but the Ayahuasca is in the plant medicines are also those gateways, those access points that clean off our receivers. So but I like to make it really grounded and really easy, and like something preschool kids could do. So then that means adults could do it to feeling like they would be dumb if they dried, but your body and your heart. And so there's this place called your center, where all of it is there, like you can feel the body sensations, the mind has something to say, the heart is giving us data, it's all data. And then there's a space in between, there's a space in between all of that where we are. Hmm. And that's, that's where if we go from there, we're good. No matter the circumstances or conditions, this is what I've come to find. You know, my dad's committed suicide, I've been through a tornado killed chronic pain, blah, blah, blah. And it's, it's this, it's this place where I don't break where it is unbreakable, you know. So that center place where you have access to your body, your heart, and your mind, and then your spirit. All working at the same time.

Brandon Handley 22:13 I want to use the word like resilience for this place where you don't break. But is that a good word? Is there a better word that you can think of that would describe that place?

Jenna Smith 22:24 Hmm, I mean, I call it I call it this is the resourcing method. This is but it's not the best word either source like to resource to is the method of how to get there, but I would call this space like resilient is is a it's like a, you know, it's like an ad it's like your will get resiliency.

Brandon Handley 22:44 Right. Right, exactly. But I think that there's I think that if what I'm understanding is that this is really a space where where you're connected, this is the place where you're connected, right, where you realize just in a moment that you're connected with source and in that space, right. Where you won't, you can't break. Right. I love you know, Bob Proctor. I haven't listened to him for a while. But one of the lies that he said, that really resonated with me back in the day was your spiritual DNA is perfect. Right. And so since then, I've always had to agree with him. So this is a place where you're spiritually connected, and you can't, it's impossible to break. So that would be I guess, where I would land that. Would you agree? Disagree?

Jenna Smith 23:42 Yeah, there's no wrong or bad. There's no behind or forward. You know, you're not like, you know, people like, Oh, I'm dealing with this again, on like, two steps back with no

Brandon Handley 23:54 users right here. Always here. Right?

Jenna Smith 23:58 Yeah. And, and we heal in a spiral. Right. So sometimes the you that's a new new expression of yourself looks at an old date with new eyes with new capacity with new resourcing. In order to bring it fresh consciousness, bring it fresh, bring it Love, bring it attention, we don't have to add fancy words bring attention to something that was too hard to be with before. Okay, there's something wrong with that. So yeah, I like all that.

Brandon Handley 24:28 And I like the idea to have it being in a spiral. It always makes me think I always think of the golden ratio, right? And just kind of like the growth is the growth is it gets bigger as you go out, but you still TierPoint like you can still see all of the rest of what's happening. So one of the things I want to hit on too, I mean, I'm definitely loving the you know, the indigenous conversation and talking about some of that but also want to just make sure that the people listening because You've also got two degrees in psychotherapy, right? So I mean, it's not like you didn't go to school and study and you just did a bunch of ayahuasca and hung out mud baths for a couple years and came out of it being like, Hey, I'm a healer. You're like, Hey, I also am classically trained, Western style. And then, you know, East meets West. Let's talk about the convergence of the two a little bit and how that's where do you see that convergence?

Jenna Smith 25:30 Well, it's a great time, as you said, the hype Enos of plant medicine that can be misunderstood is like a transactional nature, I take this, I get that. No. And so if you don't have discernment, Trump being a trauma informed therapist is, luckily, it's trendy now. Like, it's also gaining trend, which is great mental health and the, there's some missing elements, but to be trained hours and hours and mentors, and it's, it's, it's so small thing, and I'm not like tooting my own horn, I'm just saying. It made sense to me to put that much time and effort into it. And the payoff is I am capable, when someone has something arise to deal with it. Like deep trauma, all of these things, you can't just Life Coach School them. Like there's some cool stuff with that have like habit management, all that kind of stuff. But when we talk about deep healing of human beings, fragmentation and PTSD and addictions and and you know, bringing up suicide, there's like, deep stuff that you don't want to eff with. Like, it is possible,

Brandon Handley 26:48 right? And as a coach myself, I'm like, I tap out, I'm like, I'm out. You need somebody you need somebody else to deal with this shit.

Jenna Smith 26:56 Okay, it's just like saying,

Brandon Handley 26:59 Yeah, this is this, this is this is outside of my purview. But I love that, you know, you're able to, again, you're harnessing many different kinds of facets, right, many different pieces. And just curious again, to where you're seeing this convergence. Okay, right. Shamanism? Yeah.

Jenna Smith 27:20 Yeah, I'm seeing in the world. Okay, so I started and then I went off, but there is what I love is the with the internet and the online world, that you're seeing more trauma informed with Gabor Ma Tei. And Thomas Hubel. You know, you never really hear their name out loud. That, that they're starting to have these conversations and those that are interested in seeking and wanting that wholeness are able to access this information, because it's out there. So there is a convergence, because, you know, in psychotherapy, you do inner child work, in shamanism you do. Soul Retrieval, right. So, um, and then there's just inner parts. In general, we have all of these inner parts that are dealt with in the psychotherapy, therapeutic model, that are also seen in the shamanic world, they're just different names. So it's really cool to be a part of both and then this Ontological Coaching and high performance and achievers and all that kind of stuff. And working with that type of personality type is really fascinating, but they all do converge, and how we relate to reality. So with the shamanism, being that creator, and not having it be wrong or bad. And then with psychotherapy, it is to bring Completion to things that haven't been processed before. So essentially, so you're not repeating the pattern, which is the same thing as being a co creator, right? Like, okay, so I tend to attract this kind of thing into my life, how can I be different in order to create an experience a different experience, so they, there is a lot of convergence. And the more you do it, the simpler it gets. That might have been like a lot of words, but what I find the essential truth of these converging is that we are already whole, what arises is what needs attention. And it's the right time if it arises, and you will attract the right people. I've always attract the right teachers, but not if I think I need them. Now, if I'm, you know, like up until 4am, looking for the solution to the problem. Right.

Brandon Handley 29:37 Yeah. So, I love that you're hitting on that point. I jotted that down earlier to when you're talking about the you know, being magnetic and having the people drawn to you right, like, you know, and without, without seeking, right we talk about I think we hear a lot in this you know, spiritual just five d See this other space have a life of ease, right? And how things are supposed to be easier. And people are like, No, you got, you got to do all this work and you do all this other stuff. But you're also now you're not. And so this, this part that you're sharing, which I just want to highlight is like, you know, the people showed up when you needed them without like, ultimately seeking them without saying, I need this now in my life. But then when you do, you're like, Oh, my God, where I need, like shamon 101. And I need it like in zip code 19465. Like, oh, I can't find a shaman that fits my needs. Right? Where's How come a shaman won't just show up? Right? It's just energy that we put out thinking, I think that I heard you talk a little bit about this on another podcast, trying to do it from the egoic place.

Jenna Smith 30:51 Trying to infer something's missing. So when when we're committed that something's missing, we're going to create, keep creating, something's missing. So we'll, we'll find somebody but they're maybe not great. Or like that you have a weird experience or

Brandon Handley 31:03 your lesson? No, Chris, there. No, Chris.

Jenna Smith 31:07 Chris, I mean, come on. That's the reality of it. I was gonna be like, what is Chris's

Brandon Handley 31:13 name, I need to get ahold of Chris, is that like, Chris? versus shannon.com? Is that what I heard him say?

Jenna Smith 31:20 He's gonna love this, it's so much fun. But you know, I do want to touch on that ease part. Because it's a both and you do work, you do do work on yourself, you do have a committed relationship to yourself and what comes your way. But there is ease on the other side of that, in order for you to be your fullest expression. So you can't just dink around, whatever, like, although sometimes I do because that's part of my full expression like, dawdling, it's like a way for me to kind of defragment or like hanging out on my hammock, like the things that make me more me, make me a better healer, make me more present, make me radiate more, so I can help more people, that that isn't the only reason why I'm doing it, I get to live a great life, and I should, as you do, and as should others. And that's sort of like the memo, people need to get like you give from your overflow. And that's what you deserve to have is what is that life that creates those conditions for you to be that, and sometimes that's working more hours for some people, but the ease is in the lack of struggle that you're not?

Brandon Handley 32:38 Well, I mean, if you're working harder towards or in a life that you actually want, there's, there's a there's a purpose, there's a meaning there's alignment, right, then, you know, with all of that should come some type of ease in that. And it's not. Because it's your choice, right? Because this is this is like a meaningful, this is what I'm doing. I'm doing it on purpose, versus like, I'm getting up to pay the bills, I'm getting out because this I have to do this and all those things.

Jenna Smith 33:09 Nature. So there are ants, right there ants are as a species, right? That that's their jam. Like there are people, and I know them and usually hire them. Like you come work for me. Like because you love doing this. And I thrive with lots of space, lots of space and time to go into cave time. And I need that in order to go out back into the world. And I've tried it different ways. But no, it just it's I would call it to be true to your nature to just assume the tree is going to have what it needs. And you know, the dog depending on where it lives, who's hosting it goes into should have what it needs, that in nature, you're going to have your needs back, just just just the way things are. But why not humans and to me, it's about returning to that that vibration of pay if I was created by a Creator and nature, this intersection of both which they are i There is a life where everything I'm supposed to be is supposed to be here for me. Not because I'm entitled. It's that everyone should essentially be able to come back to that existence because that just makes sense. That just makes sense to me.

Brandon Handley 34:21 Right? Right. I think honestly, we're seeing that a lot more out there right now. So I guess the question I would have is, let's let's talk about doing some work with Jana. Right? Like who you know, who you working with? What's uh, you know, somebody who's listening to this podcast is like, Yeah, I'm down to do some spiritual shamanism and let's, let's get in out of the 3d indentified the, what are some of the first steps there?

Jenna Smith 34:49 Yeah, so I mean, I mean, like pragmatically My website is Janice with coaching.com. And I work with The people that I have on my website that feel deeply and think big, so they're, you know, the achiever types that they know there's something that they're here for, but they're dealing dissatisfied and that kind of thing. So when I work with people like that, through conversation, it's like transformational conversations we meet as they speak, I can hear where they're out of alignment I can hear where they're battling themselves. In reality, I can hear programs that aren't theirs that third their mom or this and I don't villainize parents, and I don't villainize the programs, it's just like, that's not you. And it's very pragmatic, and that by having those conversations, okay, now, here are the things that you as an individual, individualized things that work for most humans anyway. So that's a bonus that will tune you to you more. And it's like in digestible increments, because that's, again, what makes my my job easy, is I'm tuning in to the intelligence of that person in front of me, knowing that it knows how to guide this person, with all of my gut with all my tools and all of my teaching all, but the biggest thing is to be present with the human in front of me, and listening deeply with presence and go from there. Maybe not the answer you're looking for. But that's what

Brandon Handley 36:25 I mean. That's what it looks like. Right? That's what looks like for somebody to come to you and do work with you and to initiate what you know, what is something I guess what is something practical that maybe somebody doesn't have the time to pick up the phone to call Jenna today? Or this week? Do you have anything that they could take a look at themselves some tools that you might offer?

Jenna Smith 36:52 Absolutely, yeah, so not sure if you have as a link notes. On my website, you'll see a link to programs and there are free meditations. So the heart breathing meditation is. So the three things I'm always going to recommend our heart breathing, which is meditation to center into the heart space journaling, and sensing the body sensations. So those are the steps to start to strengthen those vibrational muscles I talk about with your body and your heart, managing your mind and accessing your spirit. So they're all on that website. So there's, there's about five free meditations and the heart breathing it but if you were to pick one, I would say take on the heart breathing exercise for a month and start there because that's the muscle. It's like if you only ever did bicep curls, right? If you're into fitness, hi used to be a personal trainer. But you know, like, it's like, that's what we're always doing is our mind, our mind our mind. But you got to start working that muscle that doesn't get enough attention. Yeah, so it's like, definitely start there. I am writing a book right now. So that'll be coming out. So once you join teachable, you will get access to being on my list. So then you'll know when the book comes out as well.

Brandon Handley 38:05 Awesome. You mentioned, like I said, check out another podcast and you'd mentioned something that I really liked about journaling, like journaling is what is not necessarily just writing down stuff, it is what

Jenna Smith 38:18 it's a technology. So it's a it's an integration technology of merging your mind slowing it down, embodying it, it comes down through the heart space, your heart is connected to your hands energetically. And then as you're writing on paper, ideally, like computer typing isn't the same thing. As you're writing you're you're simultaneously being aware of and you're witnessing your experience. So you're getting all of these things all at once. And most people these days are like, Oh, I can't write as fast as my head. I can't you know, I can't write fast enough. I think it's hilarious. It's like, what do you think the problem? Like? What do you think the solution is? And they very rarely think to write slower. Just see what happens.

Brandon Handley 39:08 Right? Right. I know, I've certainly gotten the feedback. Well, you know, if I write that much, my hand or arm is gonna hurt and like, well, I don't know, then maybe write less that day and work your way up to it or

Jenna Smith 39:18 whatever, right? It's just the noise of the mind. And so as you start to write in a non hairy, crazy way, that is showing you how your mind is right. You're you're bringing awareness to thoughts and you're bringing awareness to your experience of thoughts through the page. And then as you begin as you journal more and more, it's this relationship with yourself that you're cultivating. You know, do you have the page? And so it's not a Dear Diary, it's uh, you know, you can do a brain dump, which is just blah, My shoulder hurts. It was hard to sleep. And then oh, maybe I'm grateful for this grateful for that. And then sometimes you could do a creation journal where Oh, you know, I'd love to feel inspired today and then just have floated out, like, you have no idea how it's gonna happen. And I've done this before, it's so neat, how creation will play with you, if you play with it. Like if you're I would love to experience I did one time, I'd like to be delighted. Whatever something and I, I hold out this book and then there was a bookmark that said, so are you ready to be delighted today? And it was a Pottery Barn ad. But it was the exact words,

Brandon Handley 40:33 right? Well, it's, you know, to me, it's interesting. You know, I was going to ask you do you write down? Do you generally ask people or recommend that they write down some things that they might want? Oftentimes, right, we don't focus on what we want. We tend to just focus on the noise, right? Instead of cutting through it, and just saying, that's a bunch of noise. Here's actually what I, this is what I'd like this to look like. And then when you're writing it down, you're becoming part of that creative process. I think years ago, I called it like, physically, like the cosmic record player of the universe, right? Like the pen being like the needle on the paper being, you know,

Jenna Smith 41:12 that's cool. That's a neat record, right?

Brandon Handley 41:15 And so, but then it shows up, because now you've like, you've given yourself permission to just see it once. Now you're gonna see it, like, again, I think we talked about in the beginning here, you just talked about seeing the evidence of these things that are showing up in your life. So awesome. No, I love I love that. Is there anything else you wanted to hit on? Before I flip this over to just one more section here?

Jenna Smith 41:40 Nope. Other than on my website, there are journal prompts, as well. Okay, so that's like, the brain dump start thing and then some prompts of like, creating and I actually can't remember them right now. But basically, holdings are very good, though. Helping Yeah, they're great. Like carry member one. But two prompts, because if you're new to journaling, you'll just be like, most people can't deal with this blank page to save their life. So confronting and you were so afraid of getting things wrong. But anyway, there's journal prompts, so but I love that record player. I just had a really cool visual when he said that.

Brandon Handley 42:20 So I mean, look, when it came to me, like as I was doing it, just that's just how I felt right? I've got a tactile response of the paper to write. I've got a favorite paper to like, I mean, I'm just That's it gets to that point. You're like well, this is my favorite pet and I can't journal with it.

Jenna Smith 42:35 is true. Like the these like gel pens that

Unknown Speaker 42:40 that? Yeah, yeah.

Brandon Handley 42:42 Yep, that and I've got this my papers down there. But I've got like this cotton press paper. That's all tactile and responsive. It's so great. Anyways. I'll share that with you after the fact. Okay. So I like to I like to I like to like in this podcast is kind of like a spiritual speed dating thing, right? Like, because people are gonna tune in and they're checking out like, hey, JENNA SMITH could be my next spiritual speed date. Like, I think, you know, studies also show out there that a lot of people just kind of go through like a 90 day cycle. Like, they're just like, hey, I'm gonna tune into all things Jenna for like, 90 days. So somebody's gonna tune in, you feel like nowadays, spiritual speed dating. There's a question. I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions you get for that.

Jenna Smith 43:27 Never Never done this on a podcast before I like it.

Brandon Handley 43:30 Alright, so spiritual Bachelorette number one. Describe God.

Jenna Smith 43:40 To me, God is the source of everything and always here, but also like your cool uncle that wants all the best for you. And you can just call them and be like, so this is what happened today. And it really sucked, or can you get me a pony? Because I'd really like to have a pony. So I feel like it's not an ego thing. But it's this divine creator parent that intrinsically because you've been created wants you to be your fullest expression.

Brandon Handley 44:15 Like, who wouldn't want that for their child? Right? Like if I'm if listen, if I'm taking a one in 400, Chilean shot, ascended jennasmith down to this dinky planet, or I'm not sending her that I have a shitty experience as a parent, right? Yeah. That's just my take as a parent, and you know, if you put it into the context that you're putting in, like, what are we also afraid of? Right? Like, you talked a little bit about like, even just getting to this prompt like getting to a journal and be like, I don't know what I was supposed to write. Right and like being afraid of writing the wrong thing. What are we what are we also afraid to

Jenna Smith 44:53 do that we're not enough? We're so afraid that we'll get it wrong. We're not enough and were worthless, like the worthless

Unknown Speaker 45:04 virus

Jenna Smith 45:06 is just the worst. It's just the worst. It's like it's couldn't be further from the truth of who we really are. I had it too, I call it toxic shame. But feeling worthless is the antithesis of who you really are. And the it feels so terrible that you also don't share it with anybody. So it stays hidden and Off, off we go in this pain loop. But it's just not true. It's the feeling of worthlessness is so terrible, because it's not true. It is my belief.

Brandon Handley 45:37 Get it? You know, just not even being worthy of something decent to write down that somebody would want to read type of thing?

Jenna Smith 45:45 Well, you get it wrong. Like if you're wrong. You're wrong. Not you're not you're you don't have a journal yet, or this is new.

Brandon Handley 45:52 Listen, I think that even sometimes my own gratitudes are wrong. I'm like, well, that doesn't I'm not sure if that was the right gratitude for today. Am I doing this right? I get it, I get it. And I also think that in conjunction with that, that's one of the things that people are afraid to make decisions, right. There's like the paralysis of what if I make the wrong choice? What do I make that what? Good? Well, no,

Jenna Smith 46:17 I was, it made me think, you know, we also our children, we don't stop having an innocent, vulnerable self when we're 19 and then figure out what job we should have and who should we should marry and started like, it's so stupid. We're always vulnerable. And so this acceptance of our vulnerable self will also help with that too. And like,

Unknown Speaker 46:38 Ooh, I'm scared of this, but it's okay. It's okay.

Brandon Handley 46:43 To love that, to me, I'm definitely working through sounds sounds like you know, inner child work. What was the shamanism version of that?

Jenna Smith 46:53 Oh, soul retrieval,

Brandon Handley 46:55 soul retrieval and Shadow Work could all kind of be

Jenna Smith 47:00 like, it's just basically saying like, Hey, it's okay to be like I call it being humaneness and beingness. The humaneness realm is the inner child and the shadow and the ego and the relationships and I would never be like Hitler.

Brandon Handley 47:16 Speed balls, cocaine and heroin. You never know. Right? So yeah,

Jenna Smith 47:21 the just the humaneness has its own thing. And then the Beingness has its own thing. And we're both Right, right.

Brandon Handley 47:26 Which is super awesome. having you on here today. Love that. There's lots of free material that can help others along their journey. Where should we send people to to connect with you?

Jenna Smith 47:38 Definitely. JENNA SMITH coaching.com. And I'm on Instagram, at Adventures in Jenna land.

Brandon Handley 47:47 All right, awesome, awesome people that are

Intro Guy 47:50 cool. I really hope you enjoyed this episode of the spiritual dove podcast. Stay connected with us directly through spiritual dove Dotco. You can also join the discussion on Facebook, spiritual and Instagram and spiritual underscore. If you would like to speak with us, send us an email to Brandon at spiritual dove.co. And as always, thank you for cultivating your mindset and creating a better reality. This includes the most thought provoking part of your day. Don't forget to like and subscribe to stay fully up to date. Until next time, be kind to yourself and trust your intuition.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Learn more about Ryan here:

https://ryanmcelvenny.com/about

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Check here: The Skeptic Metaphysician

Intro Guy 0:00 Your journey has been an interesting one up to hear you've questioned so much more than those around you. You've even questioned yourself as to how you could have grown into these thoughts. Am I crazy? When did I begin to think differently? Why do people in general, you're so limited thought process Rest assured, you are not alone. The world is slowly waking up to what you already know inside yet can't quite verbalize. Welcome to the spiritual dough podcast, the show that answers the question you never even knew to ask, but knew the answers to questions about you this world the people in it? Most importantly, how do I proceed? Now moving forward? We don't even have all the answers, but we sure do love living in the question. Time for another hit of spiritual dub with your host, Brandon Handley. Let's get right into today's episode.

Brandon Handley 0:42 Their spiritual dope I'm on with a special guest today it is Ryan McAvennie. Right I get that right? That's correct. Yeah, so listen, for the for the people that have been on this podcast for a while and hang hung out for a while. Sometimes I really jack up like the the last name or any part of the name, right. And I think one of the things that we we learn here is pay attention to your intuition. I was getting ready to start off and I was like, You know what? Let me ask real quick, right. Let me just make sure. And, you know, Ryan Ryan helped me make sure that I said his name correctly. Right. He's got a lot going on guys. He's got a background in medicine. He's been in a Buddhist, you know, you are in a monastery for like four years, you've traveled around the world. And you're deep into this breathwork you're still pretty young, I would say right now at this point in time, I wish I'd found it kind of at your age and had the journey that you did. But once you explain to everybody why you're on and kind of where you're at.

Ryan M 1:45 Sure. So for me, just to clarify, it was a tantric ashrams. So we, we were following more Yogic and Tantric principles and studying these and other than Buddha, I spent a little bit of time with Buddhism in Thailand. And then I was in a process of, you know, I was in a process of exploring a lot of different things. And I was also in a process of really exploring my own darkness and the depths of my darkness and going into quite a dark period of my life. And that, that essentially brought me to where I am now, because it kind of broke me down. And I ended up in India, and I met this tantric school, I ended up going deep into that and moving to Denmark, where they had their second biggest ashram, and then living there working for that school, studying and practicing very, very intensely periods where it was seven hours a day for seven months while working more than full time hours. So it's quite quite an intense life. Not necessarily what when I first mentioned that I was in an ashram, a lot of people imagine this very, very relaxing kind of lifestyle, but because we were Tantrics and karma Yogi's, we loved the intensity. And that's what we were cultivating this capacity to stay centered in intensity. And this is still very much the, in a way, the core of my entire, the way that I live my life and the way that I share these techniques and teachings that I share now. So since leaving that ashram, I came to a point where I felt that what we were being taught in the ashram made more sense to practice in the world than in the ashram. So Tantra is a is a philosophy that's very much something to be practiced in the world rather than in isolation. And so I left and I started teaching the techniques that I'm still practicing that I, I learned the foundations of there, and they've continued to develop. And I was teaching one on one for about a year. And about six months ago, I started to teach groups, these techniques. And in around when this should be airing, or maybe a couple of weeks out, I'll be launching a new platform, which will go even deeper into some of the techniques that I learned there. And a lot of that is about working with the breath and working with different ancient techniques from the hatha yoga tradition, but bringing them kind of up to a more modern standard. So understanding what's actually going on when we're using these techniques, and understanding the mechanics behind them both on a physical and we could say an energetic or spiritual level. So that's kind of what what I'm up To these days, Well, right now, honestly, I'm settling into my new home in Mexico. And that's been more of a process than I expected it to be. But once I'm settled, then it's straight back to developing this platform and teaching, teaching these techniques, including meditation and breath techniques.

Brandon Handley 5:25 Now fantastic. So look, before we dive into all of it, right, and that's awesome. You've been so deep into this, and again, to the people that are tuning in, and listen today, if you haven't checked out, you know, make sure you go check out his Instagram, because he doesn't, you know, really amazing postures and, you know, exercises that really kind of blow my mind, right. I'm like, I'm at the beginning of the beginning of the beginning. And Ryan's, you know, definitely further along than I am, he talks about doing seven hours of meditation a day, for seven months straight, I might do seven hours and seven months, if we're just calling it, calling it out. But that doesn't mean that I won't do it and use it. So I mean, that's pretty intense and awesome. So we're gonna dive into all of it. So Ryan, I just like to start these off with the whole idea, right? That you and I are basically conduits for universal energy, right? You and I are here for really everybody else's highest and best good, right? We're here for service. And somebody listening to this podcast today. They're gonna, they're not gonna hear that you and I talking? They're, they're gonna hear a message that's specifically for them. Right? And it's can only be delivered through you to them on this platform in this moment. What is that message today?

Ryan M 6:48 Well, I feel that different people will be in different places and take different things from but for me, what, what is one of the core messages that I really try to get across to people is the importance of cultivating a dedicated daily practice, whether that be five minutes, or 10 minutes, or, as it was my case, it's sometimes seven hours. And whether it's five minutes or seven hours, it doesn't really matter. It depends on what we want to offer to the practice and what we are kind of aiming for the practice to help us to achieve. But especially for, I would say, especially for men, this daily aspect to it is very important, this this dedication, this this fire. And this is one of the things that I always try to encourage people to embrace. Because, I mean, you kind of mentioned that a little bit before we started recording. But there is so much what I would call the plague of vagueness in modern spirituality. And actually, when we when we look at yoga, traditional yoga, so yoga, now, it comes to mean just postures, but yoga. Asana is one part of yoga postures are one part of yoga. And Yoga itself is, in fact, a very, very detailed and almost scientific system for Spiritual Development for development of the person, like even outside of the spirit, development of the capacity to control the attention, the capacity to move our energy and not be moved by our energy, if that intuitively makes sense to you guys. And when we start to practice daily, we start to see the impacts that it can have for us in and there's a number of like I can I can elaborate on that quite a bit. But I don't I don't want to jump ahead and jump too much into that.

Brandon Handley 9:03 No, thank you. And I think that that's awesome. Right. Like you said, Absolutely. There's there's a vagueness, right. And it can it can be a little little maddening. Because like, let's have a conversation. But let's also lay in the plane, right? And understand and come to an understanding of what that looks like. And when you talk about, hey, yoga, yoga, like you said, is been westernized, right, we take, we see something happening, and we see the outside effects of it. And we're like, oh, we want that. And we do all the outside exercise and stuff. And I feel like that's it. Right. But really, as you're saying, as you're as you're talking like there's a there's a greater depth to this. And the development isn't just your glutes, right? Your development isn't just a you look good and yoga pants. It's like there's a whole like there's a whole like inner work as a matter of fact, all of it The should kind of boils down to like this inner work and its inner process, this inner knowing and development that, um, hopefully I think is growing right. I feel like that awareness is growing at this point. Yeah, I

Ryan M 10:12 definitely thought that it is, I feel that we're at a, almost a tipping point in terms of the way that the collective subconscious and the way that the collective consciousness is expanding, and I feel that people are definitely like, and the other thing is that, honestly, even when I first started teaching, I never use the word yoga. I never use the word Tantra because I don't necessarily want people to associate these transformative techniques with their prior held notions about what yoga is. And so I feel that, you know, whether it's how popular mindfulness meditation is becoming or meditation in general. You know, Asana is one thing now we got Wim Hof was really spearheading the breathwork movement. And now we're getting more and more breath practitioners who are realizing what a powerful tool for transformation that is, we don't need to call it yoga for it to be a powerful tool, you know, and it doesn't need to necessarily have exactly the same overall goal as the yogi's had, which was liberation, because what is liberation, it's the removal of all of the programs that we've had put into our subconscious. And this is once we are free from that we're free, right? And that's kind of what we're, we're faced with, and what we're more and more, I feel more and more people are starting to become aware of how much in a sense to say it very directly. And a lot of people get very triggered by these kinds of terms, how much we are automatons conditioned by our previous experiences. Rather than being like, consciously engaged with the world, we're really engaged with the world through this filter of past experience. And that, to me, is like the essence of yoga is removing that filter. And I feel that, that that is becoming more and more popular now that that awareness of that those programs and this desire to, to at least choose which programs we have, if not to remove them completely, is becoming more and more widespread. And I feel that that's very beautiful. And the yogic thing is that once we realize that, that's what we want to cultivate. We can see that the yogic technologies, whether it's, you know, Asana is a very useful technology, but even more so when we start getting into working with the breath. When we start getting into one pointed meditation. These are very, very effective tools for exactly that for removing our conditioning, and then making space for us to choose the way that we want to be in the world. Now, I will add one caveat that I think that there is always a danger when things start becoming we can say like more mainstream, that the evidence can get larger. So for example, mindfulness meditation has become very, very popular. And it's become very popular because it now has clinical trials that support its efficacy in certain realms. And it's been shown to be very, very effective for reducing stress for harmonizing the nervous system for reducing reactivity and allowing us more space to choose the way that we want to engage with the world. The trouble with that is that for the yogi's, for example, and even for the Buddha's mindfulness, meditation was not an end in itself, it is a intermediary phase towards a higher state of meditation, where we really enter this, you know, states of silence, which have fallen a little bit out of vogue, because they are quite, you know, the, the learning curve to access them is quite high. And so we've kind of settled for the intermediary stage. The danger is that we'll go ahead

Brandon Handley 14:33 go ahead. Well, I mean, so let's let's pause there for a second right, you got a lot a lot in there and then it's awesome. It's all like new stuff that I agree with and subscribe to. So that's why it's awesome. And I'm not looking for an echo chamber though, right? It's like okay, you know, you you've gone and you've lived like you've lived this right? And you're you're currently living it which is great. Yeah, and if you don't mind you mind if I give a little blurb on like, the pre, how you before the before times before you started doing the breath work and other stuff that's on your site, right? Like, I mean, you, you know, and and I bring it up because you know, plant medicine and hallucinogenics and psychedelics are a big part of this, all this right now, right, this mental health space, I went through it too, right and, and the reason I bring it up too is I want to, I want to touch on the idea that the work that you're doing in the breath work and this yogic work, and the stuff that you can do on your own, is almost more intense, cleaner and better, in a sense, right? Like I think of, I think of kind of, like, you know, like LSD or hallucinogens are almost pale in comparison to the reality of what you can create by through this breath work and some of the other stuff, right, and some of the, some of the takeaways and connections that you can establish that are long term versus when the trip wears off, you're like, well, that's over. And that sucks, right? Because now you've got this thing that you've created and sustain, you've got a sustainable connection effect that it doesn't require you

Ryan M 16:23 even more dangerous, when it wears off. Yeah, and we don't even realize it's worn off. And we think we're still there. So when we're acting like we're still there, but it's not showing up in how we engage with the world. This, this is something that I've really, what I would say is that there's a difference between experience and integration. And we live in a society now that is far more, I would even say obsessed with the experience, we want to have the intense experience, we think that the experience itself will transform us. But there's no space given to the importance of integration. Without integrating the experience fully. As you said, it wears off, it doesn't really make the deep transformations that we're longing for. And we hold on to this, I like this, somehow mental idea or this memory of the experience as if that transformed us. But it really, most of the time, it's not the experience itself that's transforming to us, it's the integration. And so these tools, what I feel is that psychedelics are an incredibly, incredibly powerful tool to be shown things. So we see a lot when we and I still, you know, since it during my time in the ashram, these kinds of things were strictly forbidden, since leaving, I feel, you know, firstly, and let go of the dogmas that were there. And I want to engage with everything consciously, rather than reject some things and prioritize others. And so for me, I enjoy very much psilocybin and mushrooms in recent times, but what I've noticed is that these are very powerful tools for seeing certain things. But then it's my daily spiritual practice, which are my practice of breath and meditation, my transformational practices, which allow me to integrate the lessons from what I've seen, so that I can actually change the way that I engage with the world. That That makes sense.

Brandon Handley 18:40 Right? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Right. I think that it's like you're saying, The, we've got this propensity to chase the experience, right? Or even hold on, like you said, Hold on to the memory of the experience, even with the breath work, right? I mean, we can have this intense, powerful breath work experience. And the next time we go in, we're like, I want I want what I just had last time. Right? And, you know, to that end, Ryan, since we're talking about it, right. And again, all the conversation about the removal of the filters, right? Talk about that all the time, right? I love the idea too, that you're taking, you're saying, you know, let's remove yoga, let's remove this other any other language that directly identifies this as like yoga or something else, because that makes it that makes it accessible to everybody. So because if you say this is a yogic practice, somebody's like, well, you know, I tried yoga once and that's just not for me, right? Because they've got this memory again, and they created a filter to that. Right? So you remove some of those filters so that they can you know, remove all the filters or like you said, consciously engage in cut like say, hey, you know what? This is dumb. model that I had before this is the program that I had been using previously, I recognize this now as the program. What program do I want to run now? Right? Like, you know, for a while Ryan, you were running the ashram program, now you're running this other program, right? So like, you know, consciously saying, right, this is the this is the, this is the new program, right? This is the old program, it worked for a little while, it got loaded, I changed a couple pieces of code. And we're going to run this new program and see how that that goes, but doing it at a conscious level, like you're talking about, and being fully aware of how you feel in this moment, and whether or not that's an alignment,

Ryan M 20:40 are really able to connect to how we feel in each moment, programs become much less necessary. And then you can really, so one, one thing that I've really noticed, and this is I'm going to talk more genuinely about personal development, is that the trend in personal development is this introduced the introduction of new programs to sit on top of the old programs. So if you have somebody that's very shy, one of the examples I use, and I'm not, I'm not necessarily criticizing or judging this, but if you have a man who's very shy, he might go out and learn game so that he gets confident to go out and speak to women, he introduces a new program on top of the shyness, but it doesn't really do anything to heal that that wound that's inside that's, that's causing that, that set of circumstances, it's a new program. And the programs tend to compare against each other. And sometimes one is the dominant program. And other times the other is the dominant program. But the biggest problem with this is that when we introduce new programs, we are introducing the program that we believe is most beneficial to us from the place of the mind. So it might not even be the case. And even if it is the case that that is the program that's best for us, it's best in this circumstance in this moment. If that same man enters into a long term relationship after those experiences, he now has his shyness to contend to in terms of dealing with his lover, and he now has all of these essentially quite objectifying programs which he's introduced, when it comes to dealing with his lover it's not so harmonious for that new situation. So it's a little bit out there but for me, then the best thing from my perspective is not to focus on the introduction of new programs, but to focus on the removal of programs and the connecting to how I feel in each moment being aware of my inner processes in each moment so that I can come from a place that's that's genuine that's not programmed that spontaneous that's fresh and and responsive to reality rather than reactive to my past experiences or my kind of Yeah, I don't want to say program too much but programs beliefs

Brandon Handley 23:27 Sure, so I mean your your current your current beliefs, right is kind of how you would just say these are my current beliefs and how do I how do I take a look at my current beliefs and determine whether or not they're still good for me? Right and then you've got a process that sounds like a they're bringing you a quick interruption of this podcast is share a trailer of another podcast this is known as just kind of a podcast trailer exchange of a podcast that you may be interested check it out.

Unknown Speaker 24:04 My name is Wil Geary and unlike Mulder and Scully, both want to believe we've embarked on a journey of discovery we've talked to people deeply entrenched in the spiritual and metaphysical world, we've thrown ourselves into weird and wonderful experiences. I've joined a coven of witches. Wait, you joined a coven? Yep, all in the interest of finding something anything that will prove that there's something beyond this physical three dimensional world we all live in? This is the skeptic metaphysicians join us every week as we explore a new corner of this weirdly wonderful universe always keeping a pragmatic eye on the subject. You don't live entirely in the womb, the womb, the womb, what's the womb you know, the womb that doesn't help them go woowoo you know the woowoo Why didn't you say that? I'm sure I did. Catch us on your favorite podcast platform across the world on select radio stations, skeptic metaphysician, your world will never be the same.

Brandon Handley 25:00 And now back to our regularly scheduled program. Like where you could help me. So that process focus very

Ryan M 25:09 much on these techniques, which I mean, particularly one one technique in particular, which have called diaphragm hacking, which is based in very, very considered to be a very high yogic technology. And it's kind of I don't use the original yogic name for two reasons. The first one because it can be alienating to people who don't care about Sanskrit, but also because that technique will that name has been attributed to a technique, which is not really on the same level, it's, it's, as you said, it's a very superficial understanding of that ancient technique. And what this does is it does a couple of things. But in terms of what we're talking about right now, it has a almost direct capacity to interface with and, and on unright programs. So I'm a completely different person than I was six years ago, when I started to practice this technique. Six years ago, I was someone who was completely controlled by my desires and addictions, I was addicted to weed, I was an alcoholic, I was very addicted to pornography, and addicted to sex. And I was very, very angry all the time. And this was a very heavy program for me to to start to unright. And the main, one of the main tools has been going into, essentially, like, when we work with the breath, we're interfacing directly with the nervous system, the breath is known in yoga, and now in kind of modern terms as the gateway between the conscious and the subconscious, because it's the only one to take it to modern terms, it is the only one of our autonomic nervous functions. So the functions of the nervous system which happen automatically without our conscious, you know, our us putting our hand on it consciously, it's the only one that we can start to control. Without too much prior training, you need a little bit of training, but anybody can sit down. And if you tell them, Okay, slow down your breath, they can start to try to slow down their breath, they have that capacity. And this means that it's this gateway between what we call the somatic nervous system, the functions that we have direct control over, and the autonomic nervous system, the functions that we have, that we normally don't have control of. And through interfacing into the nervous system, this way, we can start to essentially rewire it to underwrite those pathways. Because, again, I don't want to get too technical, but I'm just going to make another relation between ancient yogic science and modern science, modern behavioral science is that in yogic science, we have what's called samskaras. People often talk about karma. It's a very misunderstood concept. And it's very, very, like, it's a very high concept is the thing when when you actually get into it, but what I feel is more relatable is the one of samskaras, which are referred to as these groups. So samskaara literally means this group, and it's this idea that every time we have a thought, every time we do an action, we scrape a groove a little bit deeper. And that means that it's easier for the knife we can say to follow up to fall into that path and follow it again each time. Does that make sense?

Brandon Handley 28:59 Absolutely, I mean, look, it's like a meal for anybody that's ever held a record. Right? Like, I mean, this the same thing, right? You've got this. You've got the needle that that's going to keep staying in that track. And so like, you know, it's disrupted, right. So yeah, that makes sense. I love that love the imagery in

Ryan M 29:17 terms of yogic science as a result of the groups that we've built up, either in this life or in the yogic idea and past lives also, but we'll keep it a bit more relatable and just say, in this life, we we start to be taught certain behaviors from a very young age, we start to have certain thought patterns from a very young age. And every time we have that thought, every time we do that action, it gets a bit deeper, meaning that we're even more likely to do that thought or action. And so what's the end and this has been shown very much now with modern behavioral science in terms of the way that we form habits. So we know now that the more we'd do a certain action, the more likely we are to pick that up as a habit and to start doing it with with ease or with with less difficulty, or even unconsciously. And I like to use the imagery of a path in a forest. If you're walking through a forest, you can see the path where there's been people who have walked beforehand, it's it doesn't have growth on it, so it's easy for the feet to follow. Now, if we want to change our behavior, sure, there's going to be need for a conscious effort to choose a new path through the forest, which isn't so easy to follow. So we're going to need to have a landmark, for example. So say, at the big tree, the past goes to the left of the big tree, and we're going to say, You know what, I'm going to start going into the right of the big tree. But every time we're not conscious, we're gonna go down that left path, we're not going to go down the right path, it's going to be a conscious effort to keep going down that right path, until we start to go down it enough times that we start to cut a new path through the forest, and the old path starts to grow over. Does that does that make sense?

Brandon Handley 31:20 Yeah, yeah. And I love it. Right. And it's just like you're saying, I mean, this is applicable, like anywhere, if you're driving home, and you've got a certain road that you always take, right? You stay on that road, right? Even though there's plenty of other ways home, you have to consciously make an effort to be like, you know, what, I wanted a different direction that I want to see. Right, and to. And see, one of the other things you mentioned, like pass laws before too, and, and while that might might seem for a lot of people to be like, Ah, I don't know, I pass lives, man, let's, let's take this example, then if you don't believe in past lives, and you're one of those people that says, you know, all these things matter, and I believe in science, then let's use a little bit of science, right? It's definitely been proven that freights pass through, or at least like seven generations, right? So the stuff the programming that we are born with, is, maybe we can't and won't call it our past lives. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, you know, just we can, we've just barely begun to know how to read DNA. There's more encoded in that then than we know yet, right? So what's in there could be past lives, records of past lives, right? And the way that you act and react has been scientifically proven to be passed on to you, from your ancestors. So you can call it past lives, you can call it something else. But the truth of the matter is, the way you act and react has definitely been programmed into you. And you through what Ryan's talking about here has the capability. Like, like Brian saying, you know, and Ryan, you can jump in anywhere, but like, you know, as you enter, freeze directly with the nervous system, and you can begin to flip the switches of your genes through this practice. So I just wanted to Yeah, I wanted, I wanted to highlight that because you're not off the mark by saying, you know, bug. When you talk, like, talk about removing the filters, right? This is kind of this is why I went back to that, you know, if somebody's got to think about a hang up on on past lives, then they may not have a hang up with the science. Right. But to me, they're ultimately the same. You saying the same thing, which,

Ryan M 33:49 as I said, when we really get into yoga, it's really a lot more scientific than we realize there's very little vagueness to traditional yoga. If you read the original Hatha Yoga manuals, they really read a lot more like an instruction booklet, then some kind of very vague and woowoo New Age spirituality thing. And at the end of the day, whether we believe in past you know, it's a, also just a form of describing certain phenomena, like, like you're saying, even outside of jeans, like even if we don't get into jeans, just the very fact that your grandparents raised your parents in a particular way. And then your parents raised you in a particular way, is already writing these, you know, neurons into certain pathways that are easier to fire down. And that's exactly the same as the path in the forest. When neurons are used. They get easier to fire down and when neurons are not use, they get less receptive to the electrical signal. we'll create our behavior. And so we can even just talk about past lives in terms of well, my parents, my parents, parents, my parents, parents, parents, as you said, and the way that they inscribe certain behaviors or thought patterns into us. And when we start to use these techniques, and not only these techniques, but in my experience, these techniques are, you know, one point at meditation and yogic breath work and these kinds of things, they are particularly effective ways to interface with these patterns.

Brandon Handley 35:41 Right, let me jump in the record at one point in meditation, How's that different from you know, from from headspace, for example, or headspace and

Ryan M 35:52 Buddhist mindfulness, which is really an intermediary step in a deeper meditation practice. So, one point that meditation is, is very, okay, it's almost, you know, the, the name describes itself, we, we fixed the attention to one point, and then it might run away, we bring it back to that one point. And we just train more and more to be able to keep the attention on one point. And then this leads to very, very incredible effects. Because when I'm gonna go a little bit into detail here, but essentially, we have this one of the great things about mindfulness is that it starts to make us aware that we are not the mind, we start to became able to observe the movements of the mind and realize that the the movements of the mind, and the thoughts are separate from our attention and our being, which is a very, very important step. Because in our society, especially the western society, we are so deeply identified with the mind, we even have philosophers in the Western tradition, saying, I think, therefore I am. And it's not true. We are and the thoughts are an observable phenomena from the place of our true self, which is the, the observer. And this, this can be

Brandon Handley 37:28 part of the experience, right, like they're a part of the experience that we ascribe to ourselves. We like event like me jumping in the water and bathtub,

Ryan M 37:36 comes in and stirs up the water, you start to freak out, because ah, you've put your hand in me and you're stirring me up. It's not the case, we can, we can take the step back, and we can observe, oh, wait, those are my thoughts. And I'm watching them, so I am something else. And so that that is a very important step. And it's very good that mindfulness has become popular so that more people start to realize that there is something more to their identity than the mental movements. But what one point of meditation does is that through affixing the attention firmly to one point for long enough, the movements of the mind stop. And then we discover that stillness, that statements that used to be associated with meditation, I remember when I was a child, that's what meditation meant. And then that was kind of quite a quite a high goal that people felt a bit intimidated to embark upon. And so this new definition of meditation showed up, which was just basically sitting and listening to music or listening to a guided thing. But meditation is very much this, this state where the mind stops. And one point at meditation, go ahead.

Brandon Handley 39:00 Well, I mean, so what I'm hearing you say, though, is that mindfulness is kind of where most people are, at this point in time. And

Ryan M 39:12 we're calling lots of things meditation, which is essentially any activity where we maybe introduce a bit of awareness, maybe even not, maybe we're just listening to music, we have a fixed label of meditation to it. And it's a little bit problematic to do so not because these practices or these actions don't have value they do and I'm not denigrating their value. But

Brandon Handley 39:44 right now, yeah, I just want to make sure yeah, I want to I want to clarify, right. So if we're, you know, if I like purity as much as the next person, right? Like I'm not going to call butter

Ryan M 39:58 right, so margarine, butter And then it gets to the point where nobody knows what butter is anymore. And this is what's happened with a lot of these things with meditation. Nobody wants to get nobody, somebody thinks about what meditation originally meant anymore. And even is aware that there's something there's a next step beyond what's become quite popular in this in the form of mindfulness or in the form of, you know, visualizations and all of these relaxation practices. They're very they're very valuable but they're they're a different thing. And it's sad to see Bata become extinct because

Brandon Handley 40:52 right. But But here's, here's what I'm really enjoying about this conversation is to let's reintroduce the distinctions, right, let's come back to it. Let's say hey, listen, this is great. It's not that it's not that you've been doing anything wrong. And it's not that you're doing the wrong thing. But let's, let's understand. And let's be clear that your your mindfulness practice is not meditation, there is something beyond and this is, you know, I'm glad you're bringing this up, because I wasn't familiar with this distinction prior to, because I'm sure my experience has been like, alright, you know, these mindfulness practices and headspace helped a ton. Right? What took me to the next level was, yeah, helped me what helped me a ton. What took me to the next level was breathwork. And finding finding, even just moments of stillness in that space, I've been at it. And I could be totally wrong. I'm going through the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying right now and talking about Bardo states. Right. And for me, that spaced that just that little space of stillness is for me, like artists, they had a transition in between, like, all the crazy, and just this for a minute. Right? And so to me, so as I tell the group, I'm like, Listen, if you tried meditation, if you tried mindfulness, and your mind still fucking crazy, that's because you have, there is absolutely something else to it. And I tell people that when we do, when we do this breathwork then we go into this Bardo state, we go into, like, you know, retention, or something like that, I feel like you definitely is what meditation is, missing a marker, my clothes, a lot

Ryan M 42:35 of people when when we speak about this, because, for me, the one point of meditation is very important. A diaphragm hacking, which is a form of, it's a form of breath holding, with a few different added things to it, but its foundation is a breath hold in a void. So in an empty lungs state. And this is exactly what I say to people is that one point at meditation is great if you're really doing it. And even myself, after six years of practice, the majority of time that I'm meditating, I'm sitting, and I'm, I'm waiting for that meditation. Or I'm, I'm aiming to get to that meditation, but I'm not necessarily there. And the trouble with this is that it's to speak very frankly. And it's a practice which we can bullshit ourselves into believing that we're doing. I can sit there and I can say, I just meditated for an hour, I'm so good. But I know that if I'm lucky, meditated for a couple of minutes of that hour that I was sitting, when we start to get into breath holds, you cannot push it, you know, you're either there or you're not. And if you're not there, you know, because you need to take a breath almost immediately and enter a breath. If you're really there, you can hold for one minute, one minute and a half, two minutes. You can hold these, what's called bundles in the yogic tradition, and still hold the breath for for multiple minutes and then you know, hey good. Yeah, exactly.

Brandon Handley 44:17 Are you saying about like energy losses that we're seeing work but yeah. So but yeah, I got I got it. Um, what is like, Alright, man, we just met. I not never done breathwork before. Totally interesting. So what's the first thing you're gonna tell me to do? Anyways,

Ryan M 44:43 square breathing. Square breathing is a fantastic technique. It's based on a yogic technique called summability pranayama. And the fascinating thing with square breathing is from a couple of levels. Firstly, it's very, very harmonizing to the nervous system. So you are automatically starting to bring the nervous system into a state of equilibrium just just by doing a little bit of square breathing, it's a, it's an incredibly simple technique to do. But it can be very, very powerful because the majority of us exist in a state of constant nervous system excitation, and it just, it brings it back down. But the other great thing about it is that it's already starting to train, what we can call co2 tolerance, which is becoming more and more talked about and more and more popular in the current times. And this is a very, very good indicator of our capacity to deal with stress. So the, if you don't mind if I go on a little bit of a tangent about co2. So we have at the base of our brainstem, oh, four man, absolutely. what's called the chemo receptors of co2. And this is telling us or this is sensing what the partial pressure or the concentration of co2 is in the blood. And co2 has been a very, very misunderstood molecule. Because it's been seen previously, it's just a waste product of the rest of the of cellular metabolism, essentially, of the workings of the body. But more and more, it's being acknowledged to be a very, very important molecule for the function of everything. it dilates the vasculature, which allows for blood to more easily travel into all parts of the body, including the brain, it's also necessary for oxygen to detach from the hemoglobin and actually enter into the tissues. So the more co2 we have, the more efficient we can get oxygen into the tissues, not it's not.

Brandon Handley 46:56 Real quick, is it more co2 or the right balance of co2?

Ryan M 47:01 A complete answer to that, because it hasn't really been looked at in, like, so what I'll say is that, from my perspective, I am not sure if I can get enough co2. I'm very curious, because my entire, like, my practice has been so focused on these breath holds, so focused on increasing my co2 tolerance. And now my my natural respiration rate, it sits at about five to seven respirations per minute, that's when I'm just when I'm checking it out. Wow.

Brandon Handley 47:45 And that's like, just that's just like you not. And for for somebody that doesn't understand what that is. That's and I believe that's about around five seconds and five seconds. If I was counting, right,

Ryan M 48:00 that would end up with six. So yeah, exactly. Around that sometimes. Power even. And that.

Brandon Handley 48:09 Right, so yeah, so So for the I think there's somebody you know, for listener, right. Try that out for yourself to see what Ryan's regular breath work, you know, breathing. That's your regular breathing, I consciously have to do that. Right. And I think so it's pretty cool as roll call that out. Go

Ryan M 48:28 ahead. No, as you mentioned, I have a background, I was a registered nurse. My first rotation was actually ironically in the respiratory ward. And when, when we look at that, in terms of modern science and modern medicine, that would be considered a dangerously low respiration rate. If somebody had that respiration rate on the ward, you would start to worry about that person. And should have certain symptoms, like sluggishness, or like the incapacity to really engage in these kinds of things. But I definitely don't feel like that, you know. And when it comes to recently, I was I was a very avid DJ jujitsu competitor, many, many, many years ago, before I started on this path. And recently I revisited that, and the coach was amazed at the way that I don't seem to get tired, and I'm not fit at all. I'm not strong. I'm not athletic. But what I noticed, after he was commenting on it so much, I was just becoming aware that even with a guy 20 was heavier than me on top of me, my breath was still very calm, very slow, and he wasn't breathing like. And so, for me, I'm not sure I'm not sure and, you know, I don't want to make a statement, but for me, I'm not sure that I can get enough co2 in the system. It's just about increase Taking that tolerance and increasing the amount of co2 gradually. And I'm definitely more centered, more relaxed more still, than I ever have been when people hear that I used to have anger problems, they can't they kind of can't believe it, because that's not the way that I come up. And yeah, go ahead.

Brandon Handley 50:21 That's great. That's great. No, I love it, right? I mean, I think you and I could go on for a long time. Unfortunately, we're kind of towards the tail end. So I want to make sure that you also hit on you said, you've got a new course coming out, right, a new platform, you get rid of what's what, what's that going to be? And what can people expect to find there from the five week

Ryan M 50:46 trainings in the diaphragm hacking technique. And it was, it was wonderful, it was wonderful experience. And it needs five weeks, because it is a little bit more of an advanced technique. And so I like to build it up level by level so that people really get strong results from it. But what I noticed was, some of the participants were getting very, very amazing results from the technique. And other participants were getting results, but not to the level that I would like it to be. And what I realized the difference was is this kind of foundation that they have. So the ones who tended to have better results were people who were already meditation practitioners, either the past or mindfulness or something else, or ones who already like really into Wim Hof, really into yoga. So they had that foundation already. And so what I decided to do, and the other thing is that I noticed that after the five weeks was over, many of the people would slow down or stop practicing. And without, you know, I was in an ashram for four years, I had that support to my practice of being there. So what I really wanted to do was to solve both of those problems, a new form, which will be more of like building an ongoing community, so that people are supported in continuing to develop their practice. And also, the program itself is being extended to a quiet intensive three months, and people can take it at their own speed. So they can take it over longer than three months, which really lays the foundation so they start to get an awareness of their body, get an awareness of their breath, get an awareness of what's going on with their mind, learn to relax, before having the more powerful but more difficult techniques taught to them. And I'm hoping and I've done this with my one on one clients, and it's been quite effective. I'm hoping this allows everybody who comes to the platform to be able to build that foundation so that when they learn the more powerful techniques, they can really get the full results from it, they can really start to interface with the subconscious and remove whatever heavy programming so controlling them. So we're going to be going nation's Go ahead.

Brandon Handley 53:15 Yeah, so I mean, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, so you're, I think on your site, it's like, you know, if you don't mind, like, you know, part part of what you're talking about is you know, focus and freedom from like anxieties and addictions but also sounds like there's there's some benefits to

Ryan M 53:35 with learning more practitioner is because I feel that if I was just upfront with how profoundly impacting they have been, for me and my students so far, I would sound like a snake oil salesman, I had to focus in on certain what's called pain points in the industry, which I don't necessarily love to do, but it's part of the part of the game. But really, the biggest techniques are so effective I get it someone whether they're dealing with anxiety or addiction, or whether they just want to level up to be the next the next capacity in you know, in focus in presence, especially presence in underwriting programs in you know, opening up to be more engaged with their reality and achieve even more and be more in line with their their purpose and their dreams. And this is really what what we're aiming for.

Brandon Handley 54:45 100% I love it, man. Well, listen, when I talk about breath work, I talked about it as I'm pretty sure it really is the silver bullet, right. It fixes so many things and it addresses so many things. I'm glad to hear, you know, look, I mean, it's a challenge To quote unquote market it when really all you want to do is share honestly and truthfully, like all the greatness that it can do for anybody, right? You've got to pick and choose though kind of who those any bodies are as you get yourself up and running for the people that are tuning in, guys, you know Ryan's no joke. If you're serious about breath work, and you've had enough of mine, I get it. That's cool. Even if you still hanging out with me, I won't be jealous if I spot you hanging out with Ryan and checking out his breath work because you know, he's going to offer you something that I simply at this point my I'm on cannot so check out Ryan Ryan, where can they go check it out?

Ryan M 55:47 And I'm sure that there'll be some link with this. And I'm also I have a website Ryan Michael vinny.com I'd mess you know, I'm mess on top of that. I'm mainly on Instagram these days. So that's that's the best place to find me. Fantastic, Ryan.

Brandon Handley 56:12 Hey, man, thank you so much for stopping in today. I know you're just came from Costa Rica. You over in Mexico. You've been very busy. So I appreciate you making the time to be on

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