Sunburnt Souls | Faith, Mental Health & Mayhem

After a BMX crash left him paralysed, Nathan faced years of depression and doubt. Discover how faith, resilience, and community led to real hope.

What happens when your body breaks, but your spirit refuses to?
 This powerful Christian mental health story follows one man’s journey from a life-changing BMX accident and paralysis to discovering faith, purpose, and healing in the middle of depression.

What We Cover

1. The Crash and the Aftermath – A broken neck, a wheelchair, and life in ICU.
2. Faith in the Fog – Wrestling with God when prayers for healing go unanswered.
3. Depression and Medication – Facing major depression, inpatient stays, and the courage to ask for help.
4. TMS and Recovery – How new treatments and faith worked together to restore hope.
5. Calling and Purpose – Finding a new mission through chaplaincy and service.
6. What Healing Really Means – Why faith isn’t about fixing everything but trusting through anything.

Reflection

This episode speaks to anyone battling mental illness, chronic pain, or grief — reminding us that hope is not found in perfection, but in perseverance.

Sunburnt Souls Unhinged is here! 

Join Dave for a fun night of comedy, stories, raw conversations and much more. Come connect, laugh, and experience life, faith and mental health in a whole new way.  For more info and tickets, click here

🙏 IF YOU WOULD LOVE TO SUPPORT THE MISSION

Help us keep producing Christian mental health podcasts and resources that bring hope to listeners around the world and breaks the stigma in the Church. 👉 Donate to Sunburnt Souls. ALL DONATIONS OVER $2 ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

🧠 NEW ONLINE COURSE: Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health

A 28-day, FREE journey to help you:

• Embrace your identity in Jesus
• Build life-giving spiritual rhythms
• Navigate anxiety, depression, and burnout with honesty and grace

👉 Start your 28-day journey today

📩 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY

Get weekly encouragement, bonus podcast clips, and faith-informed mental health resources in your inbox. 👉 Subscribe to the newsletter

⭐ LEAVE A REVIEW

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When silence and solitude fail, Scripture still speaks. In this heartfelt conversation, Dave Quak and Jess Quak explore how the Bible connects us to God when our minds and emotions feel heavy. From poetic laments to prophetic promises, discover how every part of God’s Word can bring peace, perspective, and presence.

What We Cover

1. Why Genres Matter When You’re Struggling
 Understanding the Bible’s genres helps you read with clarity, find the right voice for your situation, and avoid misusing verses that were never meant to weigh you down.

2. Psalms (Poetry): Naming Feelings & Finding Language for Pain
 Psalm 42 becomes a mirror for your soul—moving from dryness to desire, from ache to worship. Poetry helps name what hurts and opens a path toward healing.

3. Narrative: Solidarity with Imperfect Saints
 Elijah, David, Jonah, and Esther show that God’s promises are stronger than our failures. Their stories remind us we’re not alone when we feel messy or misunderstood.

4. Wisdom Literature: Safeguarding Your Mind
 Proverbs, Job, and Ecclesiastes teach timing, boundaries, and relational grace—how to respond with wisdom when life feels chaotic.

5. Prophetic Books: God’s Call, Compassion & Comfort
 From Isaiah 61 to Hosea, we see God’s relentless pursuit of the brokenhearted. Prophecy invites us to pray for mercy and trust in His plan for restoration.

6. The Gospels: Meeting Jesus in Real Life
 Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John each show a different facet of the same Saviour—personal, powerful, and present. For the anxious heart, Jesus remains the centre of hope.

7. Apocalyptic Texts: Hope Beyond Fear
 Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation—visions written to persecuted people. They’re not about panic but perseverance: the final word is still love, not fear.

8. The Big Takeaway
 Therapy and medication matter. But Scripture is the one place you can always meet God’s voice. When your mind is hurting, His Word is still alive and waiting.

Timestamps

00:00 Intro: when solitude doesn’t work
 03:15 Why Bible genres matter for mental health
 04:27 Psalms & Psalm 42 – naming your feelings
 08:39 “Why, my soul, are you downcast?”
 11:06 Narrative – imperfect saints & solidarity
 16:05 Wisdom literature – mental wellbeing guardrails
 20:36 Prophetic books – context & comfort
 25:16 Gospels – Jesus for every personality
 30:50 Apocalyptic hope – stay centred on Jesus
 33:53 Final thoughts & prayer

Scriptures Referenced

Psalm 42 • Isaiah 61 • Hosea 1–3 • Proverbs • Job • Ecclesiastes • 2 Corinthians • Matthew • Mark • Luke • John • Revelation

Pull Quotes

Tags / Keywords

christian mental health, bible for anxiety, scripture and depression, psalms and healing, faith and mental health, finding god in pain, biblical hope, wisdom literature, gospels and jesus, revelation hope

Sunburnt Souls Unhinged is here! 

Join Dave for a fun night of comedy, stories, raw conversations and much more. Come connect, laugh, and experience life, faith and mental health in a whole new way.  For more info and tickets, click here

🙏 IF YOU WOULD LOVE TO SUPPORT THE MISSION

Help us keep producing Christian mental health podcasts and resources that bring hope to listeners around the world and breaks the stigma in the Church. 👉 Donate to Sunburnt Souls. ALL DONATIONS OVER $2 ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

🧠 NEW ONLINE COURSE: Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health

A 28-day, FREE journey to help you:

• Embrace your identity in Jesus
• Build life-giving spiritual rhythms
• Navigate anxiety, depression, and burnout with honesty and grace

👉 Start your 28-day journey today

📩 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY

Get weekly encouragement, bonus podcast clips, and faith-informed mental health resources in your inbox. 👉 Subscribe to the newsletter

⭐ LEAVE A REVIEW

Love this episode? Your review helps others discover faith-based mental health resources and find hope for their journey.

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Why are some people so blunt—and why does it sting? In this honest and humorous episode of Sunburnt Souls: A Christian Mental Health Podcast, Dave and Jess Quak explore why blunt people speak the way they do and how relationships can thrive when truth meets grace. From prophetic personalities and neurodivergence to marriage, faith, and communication, they unpack how clarity can coexist with kindness. 

Using biblical insight—including Jesus’ blunt conversation with the woman at the well—this episode helps listeners see how honesty, when fuelled by love, can heal rather than hurt.

Whether you’re the blunt one or the sensitive one, you’ll find hope, laughter, and practical wisdom for living out faith in the messiness of human connection.

Sunburnt Souls Unhinged is here! 

Join Dave for a fun night of comedy, stories, raw conversations and much more. Come connect, laugh, and experience life, faith and mental health in a whole new way.  For more info and tickets, click here

🙏 IF YOU WOULD LOVE TO SUPPORT THE MISSION

Help us keep producing Christian mental health podcasts and resources that bring hope to listeners around the world and breaks the stigma in the Church. 👉 Donate to Sunburnt Souls. ALL DONATIONS OVER $2 ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

🧠 NEW ONLINE COURSE: Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health

A 28-day, FREE journey to help you:

• Embrace your identity in Jesus
• Build life-giving spiritual rhythms
• Navigate anxiety, depression, and burnout with honesty and grace

👉 Start your 28-day journey today

📩 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY

Get weekly encouragement, bonus podcast clips, and faith-informed mental health resources in your inbox. 👉 Subscribe to the newsletter

⭐ LEAVE A REVIEW

Love this episode? Your review helps others discover faith-based mental health resources and find hope for their journey.

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In this solo episode of Sunburnt Souls, a Christian mental health podcast, host Dave Quak opens up about faith, mental illness, and what it means to live a life that’s “unideal” yet deeply loved by God.

From a story about Tony with Tourette’s in church to reflections on his own bipolar journey, Dave explores how God meets us in our brokenness—not despite it.

This episode tackles the stigma around mental health in the church, the reality of unanswered prayers, and why God’s power is often made perfect in weakness.
 Whether you live with anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, or simply feel “less than ideal,” this episode is a reminder that you are seen, loved, and called.

Quote Highlights

• “Just because life isn’t ideal doesn’t mean it can’t be full and amazing.”
• “We all walked past the bucket of brokenness—something stuck to each of us.”
• “God didn’t give me bipolar disorder, but He’s not wasting it.”
• “His power is made perfect in my weakness.”
• “Faith and mental illness aren’t enemies—they’re often fellow travellers.”

Sunburnt Souls Unhinged is here! 

Join Dave for a fun night of comedy, stories, raw conversations and much more. Come connect, laugh, and experience life, faith and mental health in a whole new way.  For more info and tickets, click here

🙏 IF YOU WOULD LOVE TO SUPPORT THE MISSION

Help us keep producing Christian mental health podcasts and resources that bring hope to listeners around the world and breaks the stigma in the Church. 👉 Donate to Sunburnt Souls. ALL DONATIONS OVER $2 ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

🧠 NEW ONLINE COURSE: Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health

A 28-day, FREE journey to help you:

• Embrace your identity in Jesus
• Build life-giving spiritual rhythms
• Navigate anxiety, depression, and burnout with honesty and grace

👉 Start your 28-day journey today

📩 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY

Get weekly encouragement, bonus podcast clips, and faith-informed mental health resources in your inbox. 👉 Subscribe to the newsletter

⭐ LEAVE A REVIEW

Love this episode? Your review helps others discover faith-based mental health resources and find hope for their journey.

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Sunburnt Souls is a Christian Mental Health Podcast. This week we meet 18 year old Indigo Rogers. She has already published her first book The Indigo Psalms: Volume One—a raw and beautiful collection of personal psalms written since she was 14. In this episode, Dave Quak sits down with Indigo to talk about faith, mental health, worship, and what it means to bring your whole self before God.

We explore:

• How writing psalms became Indigo’s way of processing emotions and worshipping God
• Why lament and honesty matter just as much as joy in the Christian life
• What her generation is facing with anxiety, depression, and the search for hope
• How she sees teaching, worship, and writing as ways to live out her calling
• The transforming presence of God in everyday struggles, from loneliness to long-term frustrations

Whether you’re a young person navigating faith, a parent wanting insight into Gen Z spirituality, or someone carrying mental health battles of your own, Indigo’s story and words will encourage you.

👉 Buy The Indigo Psalms: Volume One on Amazon
or through major online bookstores.
 

Sunburnt Souls Unhinged is here! 

Join Dave for a fun night of comedy, stories, raw conversations and much more. Come connect, laugh, and experience life, faith and mental health in a whole new way.  For more info and tickets, click here

🙏 IF YOU WOULD LOVE TO SUPPORT THE MISSION

Help us keep producing Christian mental health podcasts and resources that bring hope to listeners around the world and breaks the stigma in the Church. 👉 Donate to Sunburnt Souls. ALL DONATIONS OVER $2 ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

🧠 NEW ONLINE COURSE: Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health

A 28-day, FREE journey to help you:

• Embrace your identity in Jesus
• Build life-giving spiritual rhythms
• Navigate anxiety, depression, and burnout with honesty and grace

👉 Start your 28-day journey today

📩 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY

Get weekly encouragement, bonus podcast clips, and faith-informed mental health resources in your inbox. 👉 Subscribe to the newsletter

⭐ LEAVE A REVIEW

Love this episode? Your review helps others discover faith-based mental health resources and find hope for their journey.

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This is Sunburnt Souls, the Christian Mental Health Podcast. Host Dave Quak welcomes back Tomas Heligr-Pyke...Tom gets real about navigating hallucinations at work, recognising what’s real, and how prayer and gratitude ground his mental health and faith.

We unpack why films like Shutter Island and A Beautiful Mind resonate, how to handle paranoia and “hypothetical catastrophes,” the rhythm of running a business while carrying a serious mental illness, and the choice to stay open about diagnoses despite stigma. Tom shares practical faith habits that actually help in anxious moments, plus the gratitude list that keeps him steady. We close with a simple, hopeful prayer.

If you or someone you love is walking with schizophrenia, bipolar, anxiety or depression — this conversation offers empathy, practical handles, and Christ-centred hope.

Listen, share, and leave a review to help more Aussies find faith-informed mental health support.

Host: Dave Quak
Guest: Tomas Heligr-Pyke
Show: Sunburnt Souls — a Christian mental health podcast

If this helped you, share it with a mate and leave a quick review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify — it really helps more people find hope.

Sunburnt Souls Unhinged is here! 

Join Dave for a fun night of comedy, stories, raw conversations and much more. Come connect, laugh, and experience life, faith and mental health in a whole new way.  For more info and tickets, click here

🙏 IF YOU WOULD LOVE TO SUPPORT THE MISSION

Help us keep producing Christian mental health podcasts and resources that bring hope to listeners around the world and breaks the stigma in the Church. 👉 Donate to Sunburnt Souls. ALL DONATIONS OVER $2 ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

🧠 NEW ONLINE COURSE: Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health

A 28-day, FREE journey to help you:

• Embrace your identity in Jesus
• Build life-giving spiritual rhythms
• Navigate anxiety, depression, and burnout with honesty and grace

👉 Start your 28-day journey today

📩 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY

Get weekly encouragement, bonus podcast clips, and faith-informed mental health resources in your inbox. 👉 Subscribe to the newsletter

⭐ LEAVE A REVIEW

Love this episode? Your review helps others discover faith-based mental health resources and find hope for their journey.

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Sunburnt Souls is a Christian Mental Health Podcast. Today, we find out what’s it really like to navigate Christian singleness in your 20s and 30s—while guarding your mental health and staying true to your faith? In this candid conversation, Dom and Sara join Dave to talk dating with purpose, resisting the pressure to “settle,” building real community, and cultivating what Dom calls “mental stamina” for the waiting seasons.

They unpack awkward church moments, red flags on dating apps, the temptation to fix things in your own strength (hello, Abraham and Hagar), and the freedom and Kingdom opportunity that often come with singleness. The episode closes with a short prayer for listeners who feel alone, discouraged, or stuck.

Perfect for: single Christians, pastors and leaders who want to serve singles better, and anyone curious about the intersection of faith, relationships, and wellbeing.

• The reality of being single, professional women of faith in today’s churches
• “Dating with purpose” vs ticking a Christian box on apps
• The pull to compromise and why it doesn’t satisfy long-term
• Cultivating “mental stamina” and guarding your inner dialogue
• Freedom, availability, and Kingdom opportunity in singleness (1 Cor 7)
• When church culture gets awkward—and how to keep things low-pressure
• Friendship, community, and multi-generational church as a refuge
• Trusting God without forcing outcomes (Genesis 16)

Sunburnt Souls Unhinged is here! 

Join Dave for a fun night of comedy, stories, raw conversations and much more. Come connect, laugh, and experience life, faith and mental health in a whole new way.  For more info and tickets, click here

🙏 IF YOU WOULD LOVE TO SUPPORT THE MISSION

Help us keep producing Christian mental health podcasts and resources that bring hope to listeners around the world and breaks the stigma in the Church. 👉 Donate to Sunburnt Souls. ALL DONATIONS OVER $2 ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

🧠 NEW ONLINE COURSE: Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health

A 28-day, FREE journey to help you:

• Embrace your identity in Jesus
• Build life-giving spiritual rhythms
• Navigate anxiety, depression, and burnout with honesty and grace

👉 Start your 28-day journey today

📩 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY

Get weekly encouragement, bonus podcast clips, and faith-informed mental health resources in your inbox. 👉 Subscribe to the newsletter

⭐ LEAVE A REVIEW

Love this episode? Your review helps others discover faith-based mental health resources and find hope for their journey.

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This is Sunburnt Souls, the Christian Mental Health Podcast. In Part 2, Jess and Dave Quak continue their discussion... They explore living out a ministry calling, navigating gender-based expectations, and the joys of pastoral work, emphasising authentic leadership and empowering the next generation.

Key Moments

• Introduction and Recap (00:00:00 - 00:01:47): Dave recaps Part 1, focusing on women’s callings and mental health, and asks what it’s like to live out one’s calling post-hurdles.
• Living Out the Calling (00:01:47 - 00:04:36): Maddy is grateful to minister as dreamed, despite some churches excluding her due to gender. Jess appreciates not justifying her presence but struggles with tokenism.
• Navigating Tokenism (00:04:36 - 00:09:08): Jess addresses being invited for her gender, not qualifications, and fights cynicism. Maddy advocates for broader inclusion to ensure women’s voices are valued.
• Empowering the Next Generation (00:14:42 - 00:18:45): Maddy notes Project 11’s young leaders respect her, and hopes for more women to lead authentically, despite few solo female senior pastors.
• Authentic Leadership Styles (00:18:45 - 00:23:56): Maddy’s collaborative style, shaped by early challenges, fosters team ownership. Jess values freedom to lead authentically, serving unique communities.
• Women in the Church (00:23:56 - 00:28:30): Maddy cites historical female-majority church attendance, with shifts among Gen Z males. Dave and Jess push for creative, diverse church structures.
• Joys of Pastoral Ministry (00:28:30 - 00:33:17): Maddy loves empowering young women and seeing community transformation. Jess finds joy in people’s moments of revelation.
• Closing Prayer (00:33:17 - 00:35:17): Maddy prays for diverse callings, grace in tough questions, and alignment with God’s purpose.

Key Insights

• Gratitude Amid Challenges: Fulfilling a calling is joyful, but gender-based barriers like tokenism persist.
• Authentic Leadership: Women should lead as God designed, embracing collaborative or nurturing styles.
• Breaking Stereotypes: Diverse giftings, like Jess’s strategy and Dave’s hospitality, enrich ministry.

Sunburnt Souls Unhinged is here! 

Join Dave for a fun night of comedy, stories, raw conversations and much more. Come connect, laugh, and experience life, faith and mental health in a whole new way.  For more info and tickets, click here

🙏 IF YOU WOULD LOVE TO SUPPORT THE MISSION

Help us keep producing Christian mental health podcasts and resources that bring hope to listeners around the world and breaks the stigma in the Church. 👉 Donate to Sunburnt Souls. ALL DONATIONS OVER $2 ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

🧠 NEW ONLINE COURSE: Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health

A 28-day, FREE journey to help you:

• Embrace your identity in Jesus
• Build life-giving spiritual rhythms
• Navigate anxiety, depression, and burnout with honesty and grace

👉 Start your 28-day journey today

📩 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY

Get weekly encouragement, bonus podcast clips, and faith-informed mental health resources in your inbox. 👉 Subscribe to the newsletter

⭐ LEAVE A REVIEW

Love this episode? Your review helps others discover faith-based mental health resources and find hope for their journey.

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In the first of a two-part series on SUNBURNT SOULS, Jess and Dave Quak are joined by Maddy Mandall to discuss the unique challenges and rewards of women in church leadership. Following last week's episode on women in leadership, Maddy shares her journey as a female pastor, her experiences with burnout, and her role in mentoring emerging leaders. The conversation explores the intersection of faith, mental health, and navigating structural barriers in ministry.

Key Moments

• Introduction (00:00:00 - 00:00:36): Jess introduces the show and the two-part series, noting the positive response to last week's discussion. Dave welcomes Maddy Mandell, praising her insights from the previous episode.
• Maddy’s Kay Warren Interview (00:00:36 - 00:02:44): Maddy recounts her impromptu interview with Kay Warren at the Baptist World Congress in Brisbane, highlighting Kay’s humility and Dave’s lighthearted jealousy.
• Maddy’s Role (00:02:44 - 00:03:26): Maddy works with Queensland State Baptists in leadership development, supporting pastors and emerging leaders across the state.
• Women in Ministry Challenges (00:03:26 - 00:11:19): Maddy shares her calling to ministry as a young woman and the "not yet" resistance she faced, contrasted with opportunities given to male peers. Jess and Maddy discuss the emotional toll of theological debates about women in leadership and mentoring young women facing similar issues.
• Project 11 and Mental Health (00:11:19 - 00:14:52): Maddy describes her work with Project 11, a leadership program with a balanced gender ratio, and the mental health challenges young women face, including theological scrutiny and power dynamics.
• Structural Barriers (00:14:52 - 00:19:58): Jess and Maddy reflect on overcoming imposter syndrome and biases as young women in ministry, emphasizing the importance of grounding their identity in faith.
• Burnout and Recovery (00:19:58 - 00:24:37): Maddy opens up about her burnout experience, driven by ministry pressures and lack of full community support. She sought professional help, including medication, and rebuilt her health holistically.
• Maintaining Well-Being (00:24:37 - 00:30:45): Maddy and Jess share strategies for mental health, including support networks, professional supervision, and personal rhythms like solitude, exercise, and prayer.
• Looking Forward (00:30:45 - 00:32:41): Dave notes Jess and Maddy’s current leadership roles and teases Part 2. He promotes the Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health 28-day course.

Key Insights

• Representation Inspires: Maddy’s leadership role encourages young women to see themselves in ministry.
• Mental Health Struggles: Theological debates and structural barriers can lead to significant emotional strain and burnout.
• Holistic Recovery: Overcoming burnout involves professional support, faith, and healthy rhythms.
• Support Systems: Strong networks, including mentors and accountability partners, are crucial for sustaining mental and spiritual health.

Sunburnt Souls Unhinged is here! 

Join Dave for a fun night of comedy, stories, raw conversations and much more. Come connect, laugh, and experience life, faith and mental health in a whole new way.  For more info and tickets, click here

🙏 IF YOU WOULD LOVE TO SUPPORT THE MISSION

Help us keep producing Christian mental health podcasts and resources that bring hope to listeners around the world and breaks the stigma in the Church. 👉 Donate to Sunburnt Souls. ALL DONATIONS OVER $2 ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

🧠 NEW ONLINE COURSE: Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health

A 28-day, FREE journey to help you:

• Embrace your identity in Jesus
• Build life-giving spiritual rhythms
• Navigate anxiety, depression, and burnout with honesty and grace

👉 Start your 28-day journey today

📩 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY

Get weekly encouragement, bonus podcast clips, and faith-informed mental health resources in your inbox. 👉 Subscribe to the newsletter

⭐ LEAVE A REVIEW

Love this episode? Your review helps others discover faith-based mental health resources and find hope for their journey.

• Listen and Rate on ...

In this episode of Sunburnt Souls, the Christian mental health podcast founded by pastor Dave Quak (who lives with bipolar disorder), Dave sits down with his wife Pastor Jess Quak, to talk candidly about the realities of being a woman in church leadership — and the unique mental health challenges that come with it.

From their early ministry years juggling Bible college, youth ministry, and financial strain, to navigating decades of denominational debates over women in ministry, Jess shares her story with honesty and grace. She unpacks how she has faced pressure, criticism, and double standards while also finding joy, calling, and resilience in God’s faithfulness.

Together, Dave and Jess explore:

• Why women in ministry often face different mental health challenges than men
• The cost of titles, recognition, and denominational barriers
• Stories of resilience, criticism, and moments of deep discouragement
• How spiritual practices anchor Jess when leadership gets tough
• Encouragement for young women stepping into ministry today

Jess’s wisdom, humility, and humour remind us that leadership is not about building our own kingdom but being faithful to the one who called us.

Sunburnt Souls Unhinged is here! 

Join Dave for a fun night of comedy, stories, raw conversations and much more. Come connect, laugh, and experience life, faith and mental health in a whole new way.  For more info and tickets, click here

🙏 IF YOU WOULD LOVE TO SUPPORT THE MISSION

Help us keep producing Christian mental health podcasts and resources that bring hope to listeners around the world and breaks the stigma in the Church. 👉 Donate to Sunburnt Souls. ALL DONATIONS OVER $2 ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

🧠 NEW ONLINE COURSE: Loving Life with Faith and Mental Health

A 28-day, FREE journey to help you:

• Embrace your identity in Jesus
• Build life-giving spiritual rhythms
• Navigate anxiety, depression, and burnout with honesty and grace

👉 Start your 28-day journey today

📩 JOIN OUR COMMUNITY

Get weekly encouragement, bonus podcast clips, and faith-informed mental health resources in your inbox. 👉 Subscribe to the newsletter

⭐ LEAVE A REVIEW

Love this episode? Your review helps others discover faith-based mental health resources and find hope for their journey.

• Listen and Rate on ...