Sustain Open Source Design

Heiko Tietze

Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox | Django Skorupa

Hello and welcome to Sustain Open Source Design! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source with design. Learn how we, as designers, interface with open source in a sustainable way, how we integrate into different communities, and how we as coders, work with other designers. We are very excited to have as our guest today, Heiko Tietze, who is a full-time UX Mentor at the Document Foundation. Today, Heiko fills us in on the Document Foundation, what his job involves as a UX Mentor, and the challenges in mentoring designers in open source. We also learn what building a team means to Heiko, how the teams integrate other user experience with people from different backgrounds, and how someone can contribute to open source besides translations. Go ahead and download this episode now to learn more!

[00:02:57] Heiko tells us what the Document Foundation is and what he does there.

[00:04:18] Since Heiko mentors UX people, he fills us in on much UX work there is to go around and how many UX people he mentors.

[00:06:02] We learn about some unique challenges for designers and mentoring designers in open source.

[00:09:51] Heiko talks about the backgrounds of the people that he mentors.

[00:12:57] Eriol is curious to know what kind of expectations designers or people that contribute design to the projects have about the team and what does the team mean to him and the rest of the folks in the project.

[00:17:05] Since LibreOffice has tons of contributors who contribute in other languages, Richard wonders how Heiko integrate different contributors from different languages.

[00:19:02] We find out how you can contribute to the open source besides translations, if there’s a way to improve UX besides internalization and localization, and how the teams integrate other user experience with people from different backgrounds coming.

[00:22:56] We learn how conversations happen in the Document Foundation and the different tools that Heiko is working on.

[00:29:46] Find out where you can follow Heiko on the internet and how to join the design team.

[00:06:20] “Designer [as a term] is misunderstood as 'people who do the visual part.'”

[00:23:30] “I’m not concerned with the one percent. The other percent is more important.”

Special Guest: Dr. Heiko Tietze.

Carrie Winfrey

Georgia Bullen | Eriol Fox | Memo Esparza

Hello and welcome to Sustain Open Source Design! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source with design. Learn how we, as designers, interface with open source in a sustainable way, how we integrate into different communities, and how we as coders, work with other designers. Today, we are joined by a fantastic guest, Carrie Winfrey, who’s the Director of Okthanks, which is a digital rights collective working to advance human rights through the design of technology. On this episode, we’ll be talking with Carrie about data, analytics, and a project she’s working on. Also, we’ll learn more about design activities, blind spots in open source design, Clean Insights, and what it takes to make a better designer. Go ahead and download this episode now!

[00:01:10] Carrie shares her background and how she got into open source design.

[00:02:40] We hear some of the challenges Carrie has come up against as a designer.

[00:04:28] Carrie gives an example of how entry points into the projects are played out in a project in order to participate within the open source.

[00:06:57] Carrie explains about why she feels strongly about having a connection to people they are trying to help.

[00:08:01] Find out what design activities are.

[00:11:24] On the topic of data, we find out what kind of work Carrie is doing with data.

[00:15:47] Eriol brings up the “should we” factor of watching people and wonders how we have conversations with organizations or open source projects where there is this uncertainly of being watched. Carrie tells us about the Clean Insights methodology.

[00:18:47] Memo asks Carrie to explain about these blind spots and how we can start filling out those gaps.

[00:20:14] Carrie gives an example of what kind of power Clean Insights can give to designers or tool builders.

[00:23:42] Eriol shares a story of how they view metrics, and Carrie tells us what it takes to make us better designers.

[00:07:06] “I feel very strongly about having a connection to people and having a connection to the people particularly that we say we’re trying to help.”

[00:07:34] “I constantly feel in a place of not really knowing what I’m doing, but maybe that’s healthy.”

[00:08:31] “I think everyone has different levels of comfort with creativity.”

[00:16:25] “Clean Insights is an analytic solution for digital product teams to safely gather insights about their users and it puts transparency and consent first.”

[00:21:42] “Don’t expect data to solve all [your] problems.”

[00:26:36] “What I want to encourage designers to do is to ask more questions.”

[00:27:34] “We’ve got to think about how it fits into people’s lives and we’ve got to know what that looks like in reality, and that’s what makes us better designers.”

Special Guest: Carrie Winfrey.

Ricardo Vazquez

Django Skorupa

Hello and welcome to Sustain Open Source Design! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source with design. Learn how we, as designers, interface with open source in a sustainable way, how we integrate into different communities, and how we as coders, work with other designers.

Django is our panelist today, and joining him as his guest is Ricardo Vazquez, who’s the Senior UX Manager at Wealthsimple, bringing UX leadership to trade and invest in crypto product markets. Ricardo tells us what brought him into the world of open source design, how he brings his curiosity and sense of sharing to design, and how he sees open source design as a community. We also find out how he got his start into teaching, he goes in depth about creative storytelling, his passion with design systems, and he shares his ever-recurring career goals. Go ahead and download this episode now to find out more!

[00:00:50] Ricardo explains what brought him into the world of open source design, and how he’s bringing his curiosity, openness, and sense of sharing to design.

[00:02:32] We hear how Ricardo uses Figma for his work.

[00:04:32] Ricardo describes how he sees open source design as a community.

[00:07:01] We find out more about what Ricardo meant when he mentioned open sourcing creative storytelling, and he talks about the book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces.

[00:14:04] Ricardo talks about the onus of open source communities and how we have the power to bring transparency to the process.

[00:18:27] We hear how Ricardo got into his teaching career.

[00:23:36] Django explains how designing is much like painting.

[00:24:17] Ricardo shares with us his passion of working with design systems or thinking in systems, and he mentions a great book to read called, Thinking in Systems.

[00:29:41] We find out what Ricardo’s ever-recurring career goals are.

[00:37:30] Ricardo tells us about a podcast he writes for called, Full Hearts.

[00:00:57] “Honestly, it’s curiosity that led me to open source design.”

[00:05:12] “The open source community is tight, integrated, curious, intelligent, driven, and passionate to advance the collective.”

[00:05:38] “I continue to believe in Mozilla’s mission that they have about net neutrality, and turning everyone into creators of the web, not just consumers of the web.”

[00:07:36] “The more time I’ve spent in this industry the more I realize that skills are not what lead you to impact change as much as storytelling.”

[00:17:03] “The value of open source is about discovering opportunities.”

[00:24:27] “Thinking in systems and design systems also allow you to do something very similar with a goal of understanding first and then being able to execute in a very rigorous way.”

[00:26:01] “The purpose of a system is to solve problems and create desirable futures.”

Special Guest: Ricardo Vazquez.

Eileen Wagner

Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox | Django Skorupa

Hello and welcome to Sustain Open Source Design! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source with design. Learn how we, as designers, interface with open source in a sustainable way, how we integrate into different communities, and how we as coders, work with other designers. Today, our guest is Eileen Wagner, who is a UX Designer, a general consultant, and works mainly on privacy-enhancing technologies. She helped start the Prototype Fund, the upcoming Sovereign Tech Fund, Founded the open design project, Decentralization, off the shelf, and is part of the Open Source Design network, which she explains more in depth today. Eileen takes us through her unusual career into the design world. She shares her views on the design world, the way you should approach design, and her thoughts about “openness” as a concept. We also find out what Eileen is most excited about with the Sovereign Tech Fund project and how designers can get involved in it. Go ahead and download this episode now to learn more!

[00:03:10] Eileen takes us through her journey through design.

[00:06:19] We learn how Eileen thinks about design as actually having real change.

[00:07:27] Eileen tells us about a project she coached and how her design efforts impacted this project and the person involved.

[00:12:10] Eileen shares her thoughts about “openness” in general as a concept.

[00:17:10] Django asks Eileen in what ways can we improve the infrastructure to improve the user experience of user experience designers within the overall user experience system of open source design.

[00:18:28] Richard brings up agency and egos with designers, and Eileen shares her views on the design world and the way you should approach design.

[00:20:29] Find out more about the Prototype Fund and the Sovereign Tech Fund and how Eileen is involved with them.

[00:23:30] Eileen tells us what design means to her and explains design being a holistic practice.

[00:28:32] Eileen shares what designers can do to get involved and what is she most excited about to see in the next few months about the Sovereign Tech Fund project.

[00:31:34] Find out where you can follow Eileen online and get involved in her projects.

[00:13:33] “All of a sudden you’re a contributor and design is rarely like coding contributions.”

[00:18:08] “The process is the change you want to see.”

[00:19:19] “You can’t have any ego; you have to talk to people and be their servant.”

Special Guest: Eileen Wagner.

Conor Okus | Christoph Ono

Richard Littauer | Georgia Bullen | Memo Esparza

Hello and welcome to Sustain Open Source Design! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source with design. Learn how we, as designers, interface with open source in a sustainable way, how we integrate into different communities, and how we as coders, work with other designers. Today, we are joined by two guests, Christoph Ono, who is a UX and digital product designer from the Bitcoin Design Community, and Conor Okus, who works for Block, and is part of an initiative called Spiral, previously Square Crypto. On this episode, we are going all out looking at design for Bitcoin. Christoph and Conor fill us in about the Bitcoin Design Community, Bitcoin Design grants, and some challenges they had to face in the process of setting this community up. They go in depth about the designer’s principles, the life cycle of a project, how they decided to focus on the onboarding side. Also, Conor tells us more about a video series he helped design to learn the basics of how Bitcoin works called, Hello Bitcoin. There is so much more to hear, so go ahead and download this episode now to find out!

[00:01:27] Memo, Richard, Georgia, Conor, and Christoph give us a brief introduction of what they do, and we find out how Conor and Christoph know each other.

[00:10:02] Conor and Christoph fill us in on what’s so special about the Bitcoin Design grants and if they have seen a lot of design grants in the crypto space. Christoph tells us his plan on how he wants to pay it forward to make the grant possible for others.

[00:14:25] Find out more about the Bitcoin Design Community, how many contributors there are, how many designers have been funded, and the projects.

[00:17:48] Christoph shares some of the challenges he’s run in to and how they scope a problem for contributors to work on.

[00:21:34] Christoph and Conor explain how they ended up focusing on the onboarding side.

[00:25:03] Georgia wonders if they have a sense of where people are coming from, and if they’re coming with a design background, or a Bitcoin background, and if that has an effect on what they’re able to do.

[00:30:12] Christoph and Conor tell us more about the designer’s principles and what they’re doing to ensure they are praised for their work.

[00:33:58] Find out more about the life cycle of a project and the design review process. Conor tells us about a video series he does to help people understand how Bitcoin works called, Hello Bitcoin.

[00:36:40] We end with Conor telling us a little bit about Lightening Network, and Christoph shares what he would love to see next year for all creatives and designers.

[00:38:53] Find out where you can follow Conor and Christoph on the internet.

[00:18:40] “I always try to encourage, share early, even if it’s rough, because someone else may help push you in the right direction.”

[00:27:25] “I would consider it an environment where designers have to work more closely to a protocol than another environment. You may have to move slower at times, and you may have to think through with more rigidity. Setting that as an expectation is quite important.”

[00:29:10] “I have never worked with such principled designers and developers.”

[00:31:42] "Bitcoin is a lot more long-termed focused.”

[00:32:50] “One of the ideas is that any self-motivated designer can come in and say I have an idea, and then they do it because they’re excited about it. And then there’s support.”

Special Guests: Christoph Ono and Conor Okus.

Lucie Wu | Saptak | Sadie

Eriol Fox | Kelsey Smith

We have a transcript for this episode: here.

Hello and welcome to Sustain Open Source Design! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source with design. Learn how we, as designers, interface with open source in a sustainable way, how we integrate into different communities, and how we as coders, work with other designers.

Today, with Eriol, we have Kelsey Smith hosting as well, who is a UX Designer at Simply Secure. We are very excited to have three guests joining us from different projects. Joining us are Lucie, who is working on I2P (Invisible Internet Project) as a UX Designer and researcher, Saptak is a Human Rights Concerned Web Developer, working as a contractor with Freedom of the Press Foundation, and Sadie, works on I2P, putting together the Usability Lab, and her work focus is on UX, design, and open source tools. Our discussions today are focused on the collaboration between designers and developers in open source software, and we learn more how these two functions interact with each other, and challenges they faced doing this collaboration work. Go ahead and download this episode now to find out more!

[00:03:00] Eriol starts off by asking our guests how design, developer handoff, or collaboration work in their teams and projects, and how it got to be that way in their projects.

[00:06:14] Sadie tells us what it’s like to be this bridge between design and development and how it’s a little bit more developer led at the moment.

[00:09:50] Saptak fills us in on projects he works in and how design, developer handoff, and collaboration work in the projects he is a part of.

[00:15:41] Eriol wonders if there are other challenges that our guests have faced in doing this collaboration work, and to share examples of good processes and not so good processes.

[00:20:02] Lucie explains her process of doing design around something that might have interesting, complicated, or unknown parts of the process that she might need to discover through conversation with the developers or technical teams.

[00:23:17] Sadie explains more how she facilitates conversations between the design and developer.

[00:25:52] Kelsey asks Saptak what he would like designers to know about the dev processes specifically in this space versus other spaces, and he tells us about a tool that he’s found to be really helpful with developers and designers called Accessibility Bluelines.

[00:31:39] Sadie geos more in depth about design practices, security, and human rights.

[00:35:41] Lucie talks about the differences she has noticed with the collaboration process for developers and designers within open source compared to private software projects.

[00:38:41] Find out where you can follow Saptak, Sadie, and Lucie online. Also, Kelsey talks about a project they are working on called Useful Projects.

[00:04:11] “It really helps to have a little bit of knowledge of the technical aspect in order to design effectively.”

[00:05:25] “On our team specifically, Sadie has served as a bridge between design and development.”

[00:22:13] “That has been a part of the process of constantly reframing the question, drilling down to what you really want to know in order to do the design, because I don’t need to know all of the extraneous information that goes on the technical and developer side. I just need to know enough to do the design.”

[00:32:50] “Adding more definition and having better processes within the new user onboarding to encompass some of those philosophies behind open source, and why we have those things in place is very important.”

[00:36:11] “One of the companies I was at was IBM, and two things really stand out to me on the differences between open source and private, and they are capacity and hierarchy.”

Special Guests: Lucie Wu, Sadie, and Saptak.

Jason van Gumster

Richard Littauer | Victory Brown | Django Skorupa

Hello and welcome to Sustain Open Source Design! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source with design. Learn how we, as designers, interface with open source in a sustainable way, how we integrate into different communities, and how we as coders, work with other designers. On this episode, Richard, Victory, and Django have a great guest joining them. Today, we have Jason van Gumster, who’s the Blender Consulting Lead at Orange Turbine. He’s also run a small animation studio, written Blender For Dummies, co-authored GIMP Bible, and nearly everything he produces are all made using free and open source tools from applications all the way down to his choice of operating system. Jason dives into the Blender community, what it is, and why it holds a special place in his heart. We’ll also learn specific ways open source is necessary to his work, and he shares advice for new designers who have little experience and are trying to get into open source programs, as well as what he’s most excited about in the design community that’s happening right now. Download this episode now to find out more cool stuff!

[00:02:42] Jason tells us the story of why he produces anti-counterfeiting technology.

[00:03:51] We learn Jason's experience with currency design

[00:04:30] Jason fills our minds with the Blender community and why it holds such a special place in his heart, and he explains how fits into the continuum with the Blender community where there’s designers who are also coders.

[00:08:04] Richard wonders how Jason squares away automating things in the design process while also enabling the creative juices to flow.

[00:10:45] We hear how Jason decides where the monotony ends, where the art begins, and how he’s forgotten how to be bored.

[00:12:19] Jason dives into why open source is so necessary to his work and why it’s necessary that lender be open source.

[00:14:48] Going back to the open source tools Jason uses for creative development, Victory wonders if there are others he’s tried besides Blender.

[00:16:39] We hear some great advice on how to begin the process if you are a designer who hasn’t been using open source programs, you don’t have much experience, and you’re trying to break out of the closed source ecosystem.

[00:18:42] Django wonders what Jason’s response is to the person who hears the word open source and what they really hear is the phrase, “No money.” What would he say to a creative who’s very closed to the idea of open?

[00:19:56] Jason tells us how he helps out the communities for the tools he’s using to go and get his money as an independent designer/worker. He also tells us more about the ASWF that focuses on open source tools that are useful in animation and visual effects.

[00:23:12] We learn about conversations Jason’s had with toolmakers because they’re interested in operability, a workshop he did with Blender, and his thoughts on people in game studios.

[00:27:02] We find out if open source communities naturally retain their talent more than churn just design house.

[00:28:54] What is Jason most excited about in the design community that’s happening right now?

[00:30:06] Find out where you can follow Jason on the web.

[00:03:13] “Currency Designers are actually UI Designers. It’s the oldest user Interface in existence.”

[00:10:50] “On some level, I have forgotten how to be bored. But I recognize monotonous repetition. I describe a lot of things in terms of taste and if it tastes weird to do or tastes annoying to do, or I don’t like the flavor of that behavior, then that’s something that I want to automate away.”

[00:18:57] “You show up, [use OSS], be awesome, and then when someone asks you what you did it with, that’s when you drop the bomb.”

[00:22:02] “Money helps, but really, it’s manpower. A 3D studio has technical people who are capable of doing code and development and there’s no reason why they can’t make changes and push them upstream.”

[00:28:08] “People come for the help, people come for the price, but they stay because they got helped, and they stayed because they were included, and their thoughts were appreciated.”

[00:29:12] “Everything is design, and it permeates though just about everything we do, but that also gives us a bit of hubris.”

Special Guest: Jason van Gumster.

Georgia Bullen | Memo Esparza | Eriol Fox | Richard Littauer

Hello and welcome to Sustain Open Source Design! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source with design. Learn how we, as designers, interface with open source in a sustainable way, how we integrate into different communities, and how we as coders, work with other designers. Today, as we wrap up 2021 and our first year of doing this podcast, we get reacquainted with each of our panelists as they give us a little history of their backgrounds and their involvement in open source. We talk about some of our favorite conversations, episodes, and guests that we had on, as well as the most memorable moments. We’re also looking forward to 2022 and discussions we would like to have for future episdoes that would be of interest to everyone listening out there. Also, if you want to be a guest or if you want to get more involved in these types of conversations we have on this podcast, we’re going to let you know where you can go to get plugged in to be a part of our community. Go ahead and download this episode now to find out much more and thank you for joining us!

[00:00:53] Since it’s been a year since we started doing this podcast, the panelists introduce themselves and give a little history of their backgrounds.

[00:07:52] Richard and Memo tell us their most favorite conversations, guests, and episodes that they really enjoyed this year.

[00:11:36] Eriol shares four things that are most memorable to her, which include the guests on this podcasts being from all different parts of the world, the diversity of what design means being covered so broadly, guests coming in talking about different communities, and conversations about what it means to be a designer.

[00:14:52] Georgia reflects on what this podcast was set up to accomplish and she wonders what else is on the panelists minds about conversations on what it means to be a designer, the state of sustaining open source design at the moment, and future discussions they want to have.

[00:21:41] Find out different places you can get involved and join us besides listening to this podcast, such as the Sustain Discourse, the Open Design discussion channel, the Sustain Slack, and if you want to be a guest on the podcast please contact us.

[00:22:38] As we look forward to 2022, the panelists share parting thoughts on things they want to do and people they want to thank for being a part of this podcast.

Jérémy Landes

Richard Littauer | Memo Esparza | Eriol Fox

Hello and welcome to Sustain Open Source Design! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source with design. Learn how we, as designers, interface with open source in a sustainable way, how we integrate into different communities, and how we as coders, work with other designers. We’re really excited to have as our guest, Jérémy Landes, from the South of France, who’s a “Font Dude” or Type Designer, and he’s the leader of the graphic and type design, Studio Triple, based in Berlin. Today, Jérémy explains what he does as a type designer, how he incorporates the open source side of it, and the process of how to start building a font all the way to the end. We also find out how he feels about the ownership of what he creates, how he sees the boundaries between open source and collaboration, and his thoughts on what he would like to see happen in the future for design communities to be more open. Download this episode now to find out much more!

[00:01:57] Jérémy fills us in on what he does and since he does this for freelance, we find out where he gets his money as an open source designer.

[00:04:52] Memo wonders how Jérémy’s path has been on being a designer and becoming a type designer and incorporating the open source side of it.

[00:07:55] Eriol asks Jérémy to explain the process of how to start building a font or build some topography all the way to the end when the font is used. He also explains if it differs for commercial non-open source fonts and open source fonts.

[00:12:20] Jérémy used to be an open source type designer first, so Memo wonders if working in open source helped him reach more people, brought more attention to his work, and if it was a commercial channel to his professional career.

[00:14:20] Richard talks about one of the major benefits of using open source software is that you can fork a project, and he wonders if Jérémy has seen that happen in the font community.

[00:18:30] Find out how Jérémy sees the boundaries between open source and collaboration.

[00:20:55] Eriol brings up the topic of is it still open source if you pay for it, and wonders how Jérémy feels about the ownership of what he creates and what kind of thoughts go through his head as he creates typefaces and fonts around the complex nature of ownership and design practice.

[00:25:28] Jérémy shares his thoughts on what would like to see happen for design communities to be more open in the future.

[00:28:10] Find out where you can follow Jérémy online.

[00:05:13] “I think that open source should have, especially in design, more eyeballs on it. Not everything makes sense as an open source project.”

[00:15:10] “As the font community started to be more used to open source ways of working, and as the frontier between collaboration and open source starts to blend, we saw more forks happen.”

Special Guest: Jérémy Landes.

Jin Guo | Jinghui Cheng

Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox | Memo Esparza

Hello and welcome to Sustain Open Source Design! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source with design. Learn how we, as designers, interface with open source in a sustainable way, how we integrate into different communities, and how we as coders, work with other designers. Today, we have two amazing guests, Jin Guo and Jinghui Cheng from Montréal. Jin is an Assistant Professor at McGill University in the School of Computer Science, and she received her Ph.D. from the University of Notre Dame. She is particularly interested in the intersection between Software Engineering, Human-Computer Interaction, and Artificial Intelligence. Jinghui is an Assistant Professor at Polytechnique Montréal, where he directs the Human Centered Design Lab. His research combines the field of Human-Computer Interaction with Software Engineering. Today, we hear about Jin’s grant she received from the Sloan Foundation, which is supporting the open source usability for scientific software. Jin and Jinghui go in depth about things scientific researchers use, some common problems around usability, the different research methods they are using in their studies, and how they incorporate the community aspect to their research. Also, they share advice on how to get involved with research happening on open source. Go ahead and download this episode now to learn more!

[00:03:45] Jin explains more about the grant they were given from the Sloan Foundation.

[00:05:49] Find out what kinds of open source code scientific researchers use and some common problems around usability.

[00:09:04] Jin and Jinghui tell us about the different research methods they are doing.

[00:12:41] Richard wonders what Jin and Jinghui are particularly interested in learning from their study that will help their future research and what are they trying to learn on an academic sense.

[00:17:47] Eriol wonders if Jin and Jinghui had similar challenges when researching open source projects.

[00:22:15] Jin and Jinghui share their thoughts on incorporating the community aspect to their research.

[00:25:32] Richard wonders if Jin and Jinghui can share any ideas to designers, communities which have design focus, or open source in general, on how they can get involved with research happening on open source, besides reading papers, doing a PhD, or going to their workshops.

[00:28:11] Eriol asks how Jinghui views end users as a kind of designer and what that might mean for how he’s doing his work, and if these workshops are a way of doing that.

[00:30:25] Jin expands more on her interest in AI and how that’s going to work, and how she’s going to get AI to play with designers and open source communities.

[00:34:10] Find out where you can follow Jin and Jinghui on the internet.

[00:05:16] “We’re hoping to use this grant to help advance scientific software usability, but also use the end result from our projects to benefit open source usability as a whole.”

[00:15:40] “For open source usability, I think the tooling is one aspect, but the ultimate goal for our improvement on the tooling is the mindset improvement.”

[00:18:38] “As a researcher, ideally we would need to make more frequent and iterative collaborations with open source projects by either interviewing them or having scientific project ideas. Balancing with them and to see what is the relevance of our research with their real concerns.”

[00:19:22] “One of the things we are currently planning on is to conduct some of the workshops that are going to invite the end users and the designers to be in the same place, to work together to observe their dynamics of communicating.”

[00:23:47] “What we hope is to learn the boundary of communication between those more stereotyped communities, but to make them feel welcomed to communicate with each other regardless of their title or role.”

[00:27:46] “Design conferences, they need to welcome more people rather than just really fashi fashionable flashy designers doing, well I don’t know, stuff for evil clients.” (Eriol)

Special Guests: Jin L.C. Guo and Jinghui Cheng.