Sustain

Ciarán O’Riordan

Richard Littauer | Leslie Hawthorne

In this episode, host Richard Littauer and co-host Leslie Hawthorne engage with Ciarán O’Riordan, Senior Policy Advisor from Open Forum Europe (OFE), diving into the intricacies of the Cyber Resiliency Act (CRA) and its implications for the Free and Open Source Software (FOSS) community. Ciarán shares his journey from software development to policy advocacy, emphasizing the critical role of policy work in shaping the future of open source. He provides an in-depth analysis of the CRA, highlighting concerns about its initial draft, the involvement of the FOSS community in shaping its final form, and the potential challenges and opportunities it presents. The discussion also touches on other significant legislative developments in Europe, such as the Product Liability Directive and the AI Act, and their potential effects on open source software. Press download now to hear more!

[00:01:25] Ciarán explains how he became a Senior Policy Advisor, his passion for policy work, tracing his journey from a software developer in Dublin to his 20-year career in Brussels focusing on policy advocacy, including his recent position at OFE.

[00:06:08] Leslie asks Ciarán for a summary of the Cyber Resilience Act (CRA) and its specific implications for the free and open source software ecosystem. Ciarán contrasts the initial and final versions of the CR, detailing the changes made, the lightened obligations for free and open source software, and the ongoing compliance challenges for commercial distributions.

[00:11:02] Leslie inquires how software foundation’s responsible for producing commercialized software are impacted by the Cyber Resilience Act. Ciarán explains that the final version of the Act introduces a new category called “Open Source Stewards” for entities like software foundations, which have a reduced set of obligations without fines. He also mentions the timeline for the CRA, stating in will come into force around summertime 2027, after being officially signed.

[00:16:09] Richard asks about the CRA’s impact on individual non-European developers, like himself, who have repositories on platforms like GitHub or GitLab. Ciarán responds that the specifics of how the CRA will affect such developers will become clear once the standards are developed.

[00:17:55] Ciarán clarifies the role of software foundations is to provide services or procedures for compliance, which may vary across different foundations.

[00:19:36] Richard wonders who benefits from this Act, and Ciarán discusses the justification for the CRA, which is cost-based, comparing the cybersecurity costs with compliance costs.

[00:21:31] Leslie asks about the process of creating standards for CRA compliance and how average FOSS developers can influence these standards and questions the best ways for FOSS developers to get involved in influencing the outcomes beneficial to the FOSS ecosystem. Ciarán notes that working on standards and policy is complex and compares it to contributing to software development on short notice.

[00:26:07] Ciarán discusses OFE’s multi-layered structure and the FOSS community list, which serves as a base for information sharing and connection.

[00:27:24] Richard questions the impact CRA on individual developers with numerous dependencies in their projects. Ciarán reassures that there is no immediate cause for panic as the CRA will not come into force until summer 2027 and many details will be clarified in the coming years.

[00:28:39] Leslie shifts the discussion the Product Liability Directive (PLD) and its relevance to the FOSS ecosystem and Ciarán goes in depth about it.

[00:33:36] Find out where you can learn more about Ciarán and OFE on the web.

[00:04:58] “We’d love to have better cyber security, especially if it just falls from the sky.”

[00:22:31] “Working on standards and policy in general is about as complex as working on software development.”

[00:24:00] “In terms of getting involved, two important things: First is getting in contact with other people, and the second is the need to do some work on your own initiative without having been brought into some of these groups.”

Special Guest: Ciarán O'Riordan.

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Mannie William Young

Richard Littauer

In this episode, host Richard invites guest Mannie Young from Ghana’s Python community to share his experiences in open source development. Mannie discusses his role as the Executive Director of the Python Software Community in Ghana and his involvement in organizing PyCon Africa. He provides insights into the significant growth of the Python community in Ghana and the various initiatives under it. He also discusses the Nigerian open source community’s vibrancy, the Python community’s development in Ghana, and reflects on his experiences at OSCA and Sustain events. Mannie touches on cultural differences affecting community sustainability and funding opportunities, and he shares insights on how to get involved with PyCon Africa and Python Ghana, highlighting the new PyClubs initiative. Hit download now to hear more!

[00:00:59] Mannie mentions his active contribution to the Python software community and his roles as the Executive Director of Python Ghana and organizer of PyCon Africa.

[00:02:02] Mannie discusses his experience at OSCA Fest 2023, insights from the Sustain Session, as well as Importance of Documentation in Open Source

[00:06:14] Mannie explains the growth of the Python community in Ghana and its various initiatives, like PyLadies Ghana and PyData Ghana.

[00:07:11] There’s a discussion about OSCA’s event in Lagos and the Sustain event. Although Mannie was not part of the organizing team this year, he shares some highlights from OSCA including great talks, diversity, and a welcoming environment. He also tells us about the Sustain workshops he attended, focusing on design and community.

[00:10:04] The conversation shifts to compare the open source communities in Ghana and Nigeria, with an emphasis on social media presence and advocacy.

[00:11:36] Mannie discusses the impact of being reserved on funding and opportunities in the Ghanaian open source community, along with the cultural differences affecting sustainability.

[00:012:30] Richard and Mannie address a recent issue with DjangoCon and the PSF regarding discrepancies in approaches to funding and community support, along with cultural and legal considerations in Africa.

[00:15:33] Richard inquires about how people can get involved with PyCon Africa, PyCon Ghana, and Mannie’s communities. Mannie explains that preparations for PyCon Africa 2024 are underway and provides contact emails and websites.

[00:17:08] Find out where you can follow Mannie and his blog on the web.

[00:11:08] “If you don’t blog about things, no one knows what you were doing.”

Special Guest: Mannie William Young.

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Nathan Schneider

Richard Littauer | Leslie Hawthorne

In this episode of Sustain, host Richard is joined by Leslie Hawthorne, and features a discussion with guest Nathan Schneider, an assistant professor of media studies and the director of the Media Economics Design Lab at the University of Colorado Boulder, about his new book,”Governable Spaces: Democratic Design for Online Life.” The conversation explores the motivations of the book, which stems from Nathan’s experiences in running online spaces and his realization of the inadequacies in tools available for practicing democracy in these spaces. Richard, Leslie, and Nathan delve into the historical development of online spaces, the challenges in creating democratic governance online, and the potential impact on global democracy. The discussion also touches on open source sustainability, governance failures and potentials in open-source projects such as Git, and the role of protocols in shaping online communities. Additionally, Nathan argues for diverse forms of governance and shares examples of successes in opensource governance. Press download now to hear more!

[00:01:40] Nathan explains the motivation for his book, “Governable Spaces.”

[00:05:24] The discussion dives into the concept of the book with Richard questioning the practical existence of such spaces based on the book’s definition. Nathan confirms the book focusses on the absence of democratic infrastructures in digital lives and the lack of support for cooperatives online.

[00:09:09] Richard relates the discussion on culture and democracy to media archaeology and questions how this relates to open source sustainability. Nathan acknowledges the importance of the topic and brings up the example of Git to discuss absences in open source governance.

[00:13:41] Leslie asks Nathan to elaborate on his views regarding the lack of governance and democratic sharing of responsibilities within the structure that have developed, particularly in open source. Nathan responds by identifying two approaches to this issue. He first addresses the cultural aspect, and then the technical and legal aspects.

[00:16:44] Leslie further inquires whether Nathan has considered in his book that the lack of governance could be due to the backgrounds of early internet designers, who were not from marginalized or vulnerable populations and thus did not prioritize governance structures. He talks about the colonization metaphor in the early internet’s language, specifically the term “homesteading,” and how it reflects a flawed understanding of democracy and governance.

[00:18:18] Nathan mentions Jo Freeman’s essay, “The Tyranny of Structurelessness,” which warns against the absence of explicit governance leading to the rise of implicit governance by those already privileged. He also emphasizes that despite the dominant structures, there are examples of democratic practices in online spaces, especially among non-dominant identity groups.

[00:20:33] Richard questions the robustness of democracy and brings up a point from Nathan’s book that raised some questions to him. He also wonders it was difficult for Nathan to use terms that don’t hold up under scrutiny for his book, and Nathan acknowledges the complexity of the term “feudalism,” and expresses gratitude for medieval governance structures.

[00:24:50] Nathan and Richard discuss the topic of crypto, and Richard appreciates how Nathan’s book puts together the chapter on crypto with transformative justice and brings up that the book doesn’t go deep into the specifics of internet protocols. Nathan expresses a strong interest in protocols as a means of social organization and elaborates on the significance of crypto and blockchain protocols in breaking away from traditional centralized models.

[00:30:30] Leslie asks Nathan about the Fediverse and federated social networking. Nathan shares his positive view on the Fediverse and discusses his experience co-founding a Mastodon server, acknowledging the potential for creating governable spaces while also recognizing the challenges in ensuring democratic governance.

[00:32:40] Find out where you can get Nathan’s book for free and to purchase.

[00:02:52] “The tools we have are really crappy for practicing democracy.”

[00:05:57] “While working on this book, I started realizing how much my interest is in what we don’t have, it’s in the absence of our digital lives.”

Special Guest: Nathan Schneider.

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Malvika Sharan

Richard Littauer

In this episode, host Richard has a conversation with guest Malvika Sharan, a senior research associate and open source community manager at The Turing Way. Malvika gives fascinating insights into the journey and rationale behind The Turing Way, which is a data science guide and community collaborative project, seeking to make data science more open, accessible, and inclusive. The Turing Way is also much more than its curated guides, serving as a space for enthusiasts to exchange ideas and contribute to the project. Richard and Malvika dig deep into the importance of effective recognition for contributions, Malvika’s commitment to financial compensation within the constraints of the system, along with the persistence of volunteerism in open source work. Amid her busy year, Malvika is preparing for this chapter of The Turing Way’s journey to enter an exciting 2024 and 2025 phase as they look to engage more directly with organizations that haven’t yet adopted open source collaborative practices advocated by The Turing Way. Press download not to hear more!

[00:01:17] Malvika explains The Turing Way as a collaborative book project on open science and data science, founded by Kristie Whittaker in 2019, which has evolved significantly with her as co-lead. Also, The Turing Way started as a book on GitHub aimed at making data science more open.

[00:04:09] Richard clarifies that The Turing Way is a Jupyter book, and Malvika discusses the evolution of The Turing Way and its role in advocating for open source practices within data science projects.

[00:05:55] Richard asks why there isn’t a specific guide for open source, and Malvika explains that The Turing Way integrates open source principles throughout and addresses concerns about open practices in sensitive areas.

[00:08:07] Richard inquires about the name, The Turing Way, an Malvika recounts its origin relating to the Alan Turing Institute and the idea of reproducibility.

[00:09:26] The discussion turns to community involvement in The Turing Way. Malvika talks about different types of community events and how individuals become part of the community through collaboration and self-identification.

[00:12:15] The concept of “emergent strategy” from the book by Adrienne Maree Brown is explained as an influence on the community aspect of The Turing Way.

[00:13:13] Richard inquires about the sustainability of The Turing Way as an open source project and its funding and staff structure. Malvika explains that it’s funded by the Alan Turing Institute and discusses the Institute’s support and staff dedicated to the project, including a new project manager.

[00:16:16] Richard asks how The Turing Way collects feedback and demonstrates its impact on sustainability for projects that use it. Malvika shares experiences of community members using The Turing Way to influence their organizations and mentions collaborations like The Environmental Data Science book project.

[00:18:03] Malvika talks about how she launched The Turing Way Practitioners Hub to gather and share evidence.

[00:19:42] Richard questions what it means to adopt The Turing Way, and Malvika clarifies that it refers to adopting the practices of open and collaborative data science.

[00:20:16] They address the breadth versus depth of The Turing Way’s content and the idea of creating sector-specific resources.

[00:24:00] Malvika speaks about outreach through talks and workshops, and highlights the diversity of narratives within The Turing Way community, such as activism for

[00:26:20] Richard notices the lack of Welsh language resources in The Turing Way and wonders why it’s not included. Malvika acknowledges this as a shortcoming due to underrepresentation in the community.

[00:27:19] How does The Turing Way support careers of its contributors? Malvika talks about the importance of recognition, mentioning the All Contributors Bot for immediate recognition, chairing working groups, and listing significant contributors in the book.

[00:30:31] Richard asks how The Turing Way supports contributors financially. Malvika stresses the value of volunteerism for skill-building and personal growth. She also talks about The Turing Way’s efforts in compensating contributors through grants and mentions the limitations of institutional funding structures.

[00:33:58] Malvika tells us where you can find updates and involvement opportunities on The Turing Way, and where you can follow her online.

[00:05:08] “The project itself is built on a lot of open source technology.”

[00:06:00] “The Turing Way is a sneaky open source.”

[00:09:48] “Sometimes it happens that you don’t think you’re a part of a community, but you are part of a community, it’s just someone didn’t tell you that you are part of the community.”

[00:24:27] “I think of The Turing Way as an extension of digital commons that people should use and fare, but also maintain and support.”

Special Guest: Malvika Sharan.

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Angie Byron

Richard Littauer

Hello and welcome to Sustain! Richard is in Portland at FOSSY, the Free and Open Source Software Yearly conference that is held by the Software Freedom Conservancy. In this episode, we’re joined by Angie Byron, the Director of Community at Aiven, a leading open source data platform. Angie brings us insights from her role overseeing 11 open source projects, explaining how they provide managed services and security updates for several data projects, and highlighting the importance of prioritizing by impact. She also gives us a peek into their “start at the end” exercise used for goal setting and talks about the challenges of transparency and confidentiality in open source projects. Tune in now and download this episode to hear more!

[00:00:39] Angie explains that Aiven is an open source data platform that provides managed services and security updates for several open source data projects such as Apache Kafka, MySQL, Postgres, Redis, and Grafana.

[00:01:30] Angie shares that she’s the Director of Community at Aiven and has been there for a couple of months. She talks about her role as a meta community manager, overseeing 11 open source projects with a small team.

[00:02:32] There’s a discussion by Angie on the importance of prioritizing by impact and empowering community members, and she explains the “start at the end” exercise she uses for setting their goals, and she explains using the Open Practice Library, which is a division of Red Hat.

[00:07:17] Richard asks about the challenges of balancing transparency and confidentiality in open source projects. Angie shares that they’re working on a public-facing version of a roadmap with an ideation system.

[00:08:23] Angie discusses three main goals of their work: increasing revenue, reducing costs, and mitigating risk.

[00:09:59] Angie explains that she internalizes achievement by helping others grow, thrive, and accomplish their goals, with her success and that of her team tied to the success of others.

[00:11:24] Find out where you can learn more about Aiven’s community efforts, and where you can learn more about Angie online.

Special Guest: Angie Byron.

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Bolaji Ayodeji

Richard Littauer

In this episode, host Richard has a conversation with and guest, Bolaji Ayodeji, Software Engineer, Content Creator, Community Engineer, and an organizer of the OSCA (Open Source Community Africa), the biggest open source conference in Africa. Bolaji highlights the Sustain conference at OSCA, emphasizing the recent summit’s wide range of workshops, significant attendance, and the introduction of new working groups, particularly in mental health and data science. The importance of self-care and workload management in the open source community is a key topic, and Bolaji shares some strategies to maintain physical health while functioning in high-demand roles. Looking forward, they are making plans for the 2024 festival with a hope of attracting a more diverse group of attendees! Hit download now to hear more!

[00:01:20] Bolaji tells us OSCA’s been around four years, with the conference itself being three years old, and he mentions the first Sustain in Africa happened in 2020, following the one in Belgium.

[00:02:00] The conversation shifts to the Sustain conference at OSCA, which includes a variety of workshops. Bolaji details this year’s Sustain summit, the duration of the event, the number of working groups, and attendance.

[00:03:25] Bolaji describes the format of the sessions at Sustain, his role with the timer, and the facilitation process.

[00:04:21] Richard appreciates the work put into organizing the event and Bolaji shares his excitement about introducing new working groups focused on areas like mental health and data science.

[00:06:33] Bolaji explains that the reports from the event are being prepared and will be published on the SustainOSS website.

[00:07:19] The conversation turns to the challenge of organizing workshops on burnout and the focus of these sessions. Bolaji talks about the burnout and mental health session, discussing the importance of self-care and managing workload.

[00:09:35] Richard and Bolaji discuss the scale of OSCA and the proportion of attendees who contribute to open source as a full-time job versus a side project.

[00:10:31] Bolaji provides a few tips on maintaining wellbeing while contributing to open source, including prioritizing tasks, having a life outside work, and ensuring rest and relaxation.

[00:12:44] Richard asks Bolaji about any surprises from the Sustain sessions, and he notes that there was a varied interest in different working groups, with more interest in some than others.

[00:14:18] Will there be future events coming up? Bolaji confirms that there will be another Open Source Festival and Sustain Summit in 2024, but no specific details yet.

[00:14:38] If you can’t attend but want to be involved, Bolaji mentions the Open Source Community Africa Discord server where the discussions continue, where the report will be shared, and he talks about volunteering opportunities.

[00:06:01] “Sustainability is not just about the project itself, it’s about the people who manage the projects.”

[00:07:37] “You’re already burnt out form your normal job, and then you have to figure how to contribute to open source.”

[00:11:32] “Sometimes you need to touch the grass.”

Special Guest: Bolaji Ayodeji.

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Karthik Ram | James Howison

Richard Littauer

In this captivating episode of Sustain, host Richard welcomes returning guest, Karthik Ram, Senior Research Scientist at the Berkeley Institute for Data Science, and his colleague James Howison, an Associate Professor from the School of Information at the University of Texas, Austin. Today, they delve into their recent research report, “‘Research Software Visibility Infrastructure Priorities,” commissioned for the Australian Research Data Commons. They discuss their eight key recommendations about sustaining open source for the long haul, including ways to recognize software contribution, implement web analytics, and offer low friction ways for researchers to link software. Karthik and James also touch on the future of software citations in academic recognition systems, and the importance of universities valuing diverse academic outputs. Don’t miss this fascinating conversation! Press download now!

[00:01:36] Richard brings up a paper written by Karthik and James. Karthik explains the report titled, “Research Software Visibility Infrastructure Priorities,” produced for the Australian Research Data Commons (ARDC). He describes the process of creating the report and the report’s relevance beyond Australia.

[00:06:24] Richard asks how this is related to open source, and James relates the recommendations, focusing on citing software in publications and creating software bill of materials for research papers.

[00:08:02] James and Karthik discuss recommendations, focusing on citing software in publications and creating software bill of materials for research papers.

[00:12:02] Richard endorses the use of SBOMs for citing all software used in research, aiming to counter the issue of only popular projects getting noticed, but he questions how SBOMs account for the varying importance of different software dependencies. Karthik clarifies the SBOMs are not meant to create equal value citations for all software but to understand the scientific infrastructure that supports research.

[00:15:28] Richard suggests that SBOMs could be useful in industrial contexts for security purposes and infrastructure visibility. Karthik agrees, stating that SBOMs have a broader application and were originally created for security reasons to track vulnerabilities.

[00:17:41] James introduces the third recommendation to create software use infrascope as an observatory based on software mentions publications. He discusses the challenge of identifying software mentions in publications and the work done towards building comprehensive view of software in academia.

[00:22:34] Karthik introduces the fourth recommendation to create detailed use cases for research tools aimed at different skill levels, addressing the challenge researchers face when selecting software tools.

[00:24:29] Richard highlights the necessity of allocating time in research planning for writing documentation and tutorials, which James agrees is crucial for making software tools more accessible to researchers.

[00:26:30] James discusses the fifth recommendation, which is to support existing technology for software archiving, such as Zenodo or Software Heritage, rather than creating new repositories at the institutional level.

[00:28:28] Karthik talks about sixth recommendation and supporting communities of practice like hackathons and other collaborative spaces, which have shown to have a positive impact on research productivity. James describes the need for third spaces that are neither too local nor too public. Where researchers can comfortably ask questions and share insights within a focused community.

[00:31:08] James introduces the seventh recommendation which is about implementing web analytics to gain insights into software usage, as citations alone do not reflect the full impact of research software.

[00:33:48] James acknowledges the need for infrastructure to enhance insight from SBOMs and mentions the necessity of funding to maintain services that provide such data.

[00:35:53] Richard highlights the eighth recommendation, which suggests providing an easy way for researchers to link to software alongside data submissions. James directs listeners to the Softcite GitHub organization and mentions the upcoming blog post about their report on the URSSI Blog.

[00:36:16] Karthik and James tell us where you can find out more about their work and find them on the web.

[00:08:40] “Absolutely every piece of software that you use in your whole stack should be cited, but I’ve had some issues with that in publications.”

[00:09:04] “What we identified was that different fields have different norms for what rises to the level of contribution for actually being mentioned formally in the publication.”

[00:14:40] “The researchers are experts in scientific explanation and they’re going to pick packages to mention that pertain to understanding the research that’s done in the paper, whereas the SBOM is going to give us insight into the software infrastructure that made the research possible.”

Special Guests: James Howison and Karthik Ram.

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Heather Meeker

Richard Littauer

In this episode, host Richard Littauer welcomes renowned author and open source lawyer, Heather Meeker, in our first venture into video format. Heather discusses her journey from being a ‘big law’ lawyer to focusing specifically on open source matters. She talks about her latest book, From Project to Profit: How to Succeed in Commercial Open Source, and the valuable insights it provides for entrepreneurs and developers looking to transform their open source projects into successful businesses. The conversation also delves into the significance of open source, economic analysis, and the mission of the Open Source Initiative. We end with Heather sharing her all-time favorite open source project, Audacity, and why she thinks it’s a perfect example of an exquisite open source project. Press download to hear more!

[00:01:49] Heather talks about her current practice and how she’s focusing on open source matters after leaving big law firms, driven by pandemic induced life choices, and she touches on her involvement with AI related issues.

[00:04:18] Richard asks about Heather’s transition to writing for the public, and she details her journey of writing articles since the late 90’s and the process of creating her books.

[00:06:41] We hear about Heather’s book, From Project to Profit, and it’s focus on the business potential of open source. She discusses the audience and motivation behind the book.

[00:10:17] Heather describes the book’s layout: case studies, economic analysis, business models, and a final checklist for starting an open source business.

[00:11:31] We learn about the checklist and the thought process behind starting an open source business.

[00:13:18] Heather acknowledges that there are suggestions beyond VC funding, relating it to family businesses, which may not grow large but can provide a living and enjoyment. She tells us the book discusses setting realistic goals for open source projects and understanding when it’s appropriate to seek professional investment.

[00:15:39] Richard talks about community projects that aim to be sustainable without necessarily seeking significant investments. Heather explains most small open source projects start as labors of love and discusses the motivations behind starting such projects, and she notes the commitment required to build a business.

[00:19:16] Richard inquires about the fund that invests in open source projects. Heather describes OSS Capital, focusing on early-stage commercial open source software development, unique in its dedicated investment thesis.

[00:21:15] Heather shares that the fund often approaches founders proactively, differing from traditional VC operations.

[00:22:21] Richard is curious about equitable payment for contributors in open source projects, and Heather states they prefer to fund companies started by the projects' founders and describes the dynamic between contributors and the core team.

[00:25:03] What was the toughest section of the book to write? Heather reveals the economic analysis was difficult as it required refreshing her knowledge and ensuring accuracy. She also didn’t mention specific economists but focused on basic economic principles.

[00:28:15] Richard asks about common pitfalls in open source projects. Heather points out that mistakes in start-ups are not unique to open source and expands on the issue of companies taking code private due to misaligned investor interests.

[00:31:15] Richard questions if misaligned investors are a by-product of capitalism, and Heather believes it’s possible to sustainably create value with open source without prioritizing it.

[00:32:08] Richard asks what “open source” means to OSS Capital, and Heather explains that for their fund, open source means the core product is under a recognized open source license. She discusses the challenge of defining open source for non-software fields like AI and data.

[00:35:31] Find out where you can buy Heather’s book and follow her online.

[00:11:44] “One of the initial decisions that someone asked me is that they actually want to run a business around an open source project and that’s a non-trivial decision.”

[00:31:24] “I do think it’s possible to run a business sustainably, create a ton of value with the open source projects, and never take it private.”

Special Guest: Heather Meeker.

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Mohammed Shah

Richard Littauer

In this episode, host Richard engages in a conversation with guest Mohammed Shah about open source sustainability and the significant challenges faced by open source maintainers. Mohammed shares his background as a full-stack developer and discusses his involvement in a project aimed at reducing prediabetes risk using a WhatsApp chatbot. The discussion delves into the WhatsApp chatbot project, potential violations of WhatsApp’s terms of service, and the unique license used. Mohammed recounts the distressing experience of receiving cease and desist letters, leading to his decision to step down as the project’s maintainer. Richard and Mohammed explore the difficulties faced by open source maintainers and the need for collective representation, including the idea of forming an open source developer union. Mohammed also tells us about a climate-related initiative he’s working on and a website he set up called CVE.Earth, for tracking corporate environmental destruction. Press download now to hear more!

[00:01:03] Mohammed introduces himself as a full-stack developer and talks about his involvement in a project called Antler, aimed at reducing the risk of prediabetes in specific communities using a WhatsApp chatbot.

[00:02:55] Mohammed explains the project, which involved creating a CLI tool that allows users to interact with their own WhatsApp accounts programmatically.

[00:04:02] The discussion touches on the potential violation of WhatsApp terms of service and how many projects in the space could be in violation.

[00:06:19] Richard asks about the license Mohammed used to put this code up. He explains the unique license he sued for the project, which allows for specific purposes but not for nefarious activities, and Richard mentions Mohammed’s Hippocratic + Do Not Harm License.

[00:07:35] Mohammed describes the distressing experience of receiving cease and desist letters which led him to step down as the project’s maintainer.

[00:09:27] Richard discusses the stress and challenges open source maintainers face when receiving cease and desist letters and the lack of resources to respond effectively.

[0011:05] Mohammed shares that the project is on hold, and he cannot transfer it to others due to the legal risk.

[00:12:24] We hear Mohammed’s idea of forming an open source developer union to deal with unique legal cases affecting a small group of developers but with broader implications. This union could help address legal challenges and protect open source developers. He emphasizes the need for collective power in the open source community, like other worker unions or collectives that have the ability to advocate for the rights of their members.

[00:13:58] Mohammed expresses that he wishes he had not put himself at risk with the project but defends open source work as a valid and important endeavor. He believes in the significance of open source work and its impact on a wide range of people.

[00:15:22] The discussion delves into the role of large tech companies as gatekeepers and how they exert control over access to their APIs. Mohammed suggests that these companies should provide APIs as public infrastructure for interoperability.

[00:17:54] Mohammed mentions a new project related to climate and corporate environmental responsibility that he’s been working on, and a website he set up called CVE.Earth, for tracking corporate environmental destruction.

[00:18:58] Find out where you can reach out to Mohammed on the web.

Special Guest: Mohammed Shah.

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Joseph Castle

Richard Littauer

In this episode, Richard welcomes Joe Castle, Executive Advisor for Strategic Partnerships and Technology at SAS, and he was previously featured on an episode in the FOSSY 2023 series podcasts. Today, they engage in conversations about various aspects of open source and Code.gov, exploring its history, budget changes, and challenges. Joe provides an overview of SAS Institute, its role in analytics and AI software, and its presence in the federal government. The discussion dives into the federal source code policy, its key aspects, and the allocation of the federal IT budget. They explore the idea of making government source code open source and the challenges associated with it, and there’s a discussion on the importance of supporting open source projects and various initiatives in different countries and labs. Press download now to hear more!

[00:01:23] Joe gives us an overview of SAS Institute, its focus on analytics and AI software, and its presence in the federal government and other sectors.

[00:02:08] Joe talks about his background and how he became an advocate for open source software, especially Python, in both personal and professional context. He discusses his role at SAS, which involves promoting open source integration and education.

[00:06:41] We learn about the history of Code.gov, which was born out of the U.S. federal source policy in 2016, and then Joe explains the three key aspects of the federal source code policy: creating a source code policy, updating acquisition language, and publishing an inventory of source code, including at least 20% as open source software.

[00:10:03] Richard mentions the size of the federal IT budget and asks about the allocation of the remaining 93% of the budget. Joe explains that the 93% of the budget goes towards labor, infrastructure, commodity IT, and various IT-related expenses.

[00:14:31] Richard inquires about the availability of a manifest listing all open source packages on Code.gov, and Joseph explains that Code.gov provides agency inventories of their source code, and each agency can decide what to include or exclude from the list based on various factors, including security.

[00:16:31] Joe discusses his involvement with Code.gov, which started when he worked at the White House and volunteered to help implement the federal source code policy.

[00:19:21] Richard asks about the budget for Code.gov and its changes over the years and Joe clarifies that Code.gov had a budget of about a million dollars a year for platform, staff, and related expenses.

[00:20:09] Joe discusses the rise and fall of Code.gov, including policy changes and a decrease in funding, resulting in downsizing and limited maintenance of the website and code.

[00:22:30] The role of the CIO at OMB is brought up and Joe explains that the focus of the federal CIO can shift with changing priorities and administrations.

[00:23:23] Richard asks about how to reinvigorate Code.gov and whether it’s possible to influence the CIO to prioritize it. Joe mentions an interaction with a Senate committee staffer and suggests that getting attention from key decision-makers is essential for pushing such initiatives.

[00:27:34] Richard wonders if there are any internal efforts to track multiple contracts for the same vendors and improve code management. Joe tells us he’s not aware of specific internal efforts but mentions the existence of similar projects in other places.

[00:31:47] Joe notes that there weren’t discussions about financially supporting open source projects at Code.gov, and the focus was on making the code available to the public and raising awareness of its existence.

[00:32:52] Richard discusses the importance of supporting open source projects used by the government and mentions governmental efforts like the Sovereign Tech Fund in Germany. Joe talks about how certain agencies and labs, such as NASA and the Department of Energy, fund open source projects. He also mentions that he once considered making Code.gov an open source project separate from the government but didn’t proceed with the idea, and he mentions the GitHub Government website.

[00:37:06] Find out where you can follow Joe on the internet.

[00:07:06] “Code.gov was born out of the U.S. Federal source code policy.”

[00:18:37] “It’s basically holistically the OSPO for the U.S. federal government.”

Special Guest: Joseph Castle, PhD.

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