Sustain

Dr. Laura Dornheim

Richard Littauer

On today’s episode of Sustain, Richard welcomes Dr. Laura Dornheim, the Chief Digital Officer (CDO) of the city of Munich, who discusses her coding background, role as the CDO, and Munich’s digital initiatives. The conversation dives into Munich’s past experience with the Linux based LiMux project, and its strong support for open source today. Dr. Dornheim’s balanced approach to open source, collaborations with Berlin, and the city’s open source code publication are highlighted. The discussion covers Germany’s Sovereign Tech Fund, tech understanding, and the EU’s Cyber Resilience Act. Dr. Dornheim shares her perspective on dealing with challenges in her role, her optimism, and the importance of public money and public code. Hit download now to hear more!

[00:01:17] Dr. Dornheim clarifies her coding experience and that she learned to code at a young age but never worked as a developer.

[00:02:40] Dr. Dornheim explains her role as the CDO of Munich, being responsible for all tech in the city, overseeing various digital initiatives, and moving towards a smarter city.

[00:03:55] She discusses the city’s interactions with its citizens, such as applying for passports or changing addresses through online services, and she mentions their current project of creating a digital twin of the city.

[00:06:00] The discussion shifts to the role of open source in the city of Munich, as Laura talks about Munich’s ambitious open source project to replace Microsoft Office with Linux (LiMux) and its subsequent return to Microsoft.

[00:08:54] We hear Dr. Dornheim’s approach to open source, emphasizing a balanced perspective and bridging the gap between open source supporters and opponents. She highlights successful open source implementations in the city, such as open source tools for online forms and appointment scheduling at the citizen’s office, developed collaboratively with Berlin.

[00:12:00] Richard asks about the breakdown of services that could be seen as state or federal level I the U.S. compared to Munich. Dr. Dornheim explains that in Germany, services like applying for passports are managed a local level, with 11,000 communities responsible for such processes.

[00:15:17] Richard asks how Munich ensures that the open source software it uses can be contributed to by external individuals or entities. Dr. Dornheim mentions launching an open source sabbatical to pay individuals to work on open source projects, promoting more external contributions. She also tells us where Munich’s open source code is published, primarily on GitHub and the Code platform launched by the public administration in Germany.

[00:17:42] Richard inquires about the potential for other states to contribute to Munich’s open source projects, and Dr. Dornheim explains that they have both fully open projects and smaller ones that are published but may not receive external contributions.

[00:19:15] Dr Dornheim addresses a question Richard brings up about Germany’s Sovereign Tech Fund and the push for self-sufficiency in tech. She views it as a marketing strategy for open source, emphasizing the importance of reducing dependency on a few big players.

[00:21:10] Richard mentions the EU’s Cyber Resilience Act and inquires about the concerns related to liability in open source software, and Dr. Dornheim emphasizes that the problem isn’t liability but the ability to address issues and vulnerabilities.

[00:22:46] What are some things that Dr. Dornheim is struggling with? She shares some difficulties they face such as dealing with 800 schools and day care places that run their own services, and the challenge of transitioning local politicians away from paper-based processes.

[00:26:13] Dr. Dornheim mentions that she came to open source through her engagement in politics around digital and tech issues, emphasizing the importance of public money and public code.

[00:26:55] Find out where can you interact with the City of Munich’s digital office.

[00:06:57] “If you try to brute force 40,000 people to an operating system that they’re not used to not only make friends, let’s put in that way.”

[00:07:42] “Today, open source is more alive and more supported in the city of Munich than ever. We have our own OSPO that we’re building up and growing.”

[00:16:00] “We are launching an open source sabbatical where we really want to pay people wherever they are currently employed.”

[00:18:44] “The whole aim behind open software is to make public administration more transparent and interactive because I really think it’s important that we lower this perceived barrier between the people and the state.”

Special Guest: Dr. Laura Dornheim.

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Chad Whitacre

Richard Littauer | Abby Cabunoc Mayes | Leslie Hawthorne | Justin Dorfman

For this episode, we also recorded video! You can watch here.

In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined co-hosts Abby, Leslie, and Justin to talk with special guest, Chad Whitacre, co-founder of SustainOSS and Sentry’s Head of Open Source. Today, Chad sheds light on Sentry’s contributions in open source funding programs, the challenges, successes, and plans for progression. Chad also introduces FOSS Funder, a platform encouraging companies to give back to open source and shares his unique approach to business cards that has left a tangible imprint on the community. Hit download now to hear more!

[00:01:47] Chad is introduced, we hear his history with open source platforms and Sentry’s programs for community engagement, compliance, and funding.

[00:02:30] Justin asks Chad about changes since his last appearance, particularly Sentry’s 150k open source funding initiative, and Chad describes Sentry’s journey, the systematic approach to funding open source projects, and the growth of Sentry’s annual funding program from 150k to 500k.

[00:06:03] Justin interjects with a question about the math used to determine funding, leading Chad to reflect on the economic value of open source and the sense of unfairness in the community about companies not giving back. He continues to explain the reasoning behind funding figures.

[00:08:35] The conversation turns to defining the right amount to give, with discussions on per-engineer contributions and industry metrics for sponsorship.

[00:11:02] Richard asks about Sentry’s employee count, office locations, and if they pay a living wage, to which Chad confirms they do, and details Sentry’s office distribution and company policies.

[00:11:50] Richard raises a question about the focus of Sentry’s financial contributions, wondering if open source practitioners are the most appropriate recipients compared to other groups, and Chad states that Sentry does have contractors and they are paid adequately. He emphasizes that Sentry’s founders come from open an open source background, and the company still views itself as aligned with open source values. [00:14:00] Chad clarifies that when Sentry gives money to open source, it’s viewed as giving back for value received. He draws a distinction between charitable giving and investing in software, suggesting that the open source funding program is more about paying for the value received from open source software rather than charity.

[00:17:23] Chad speaks about the provision of public goods, touching on taxes and shame as mechanisms, and the role of corporate social validation.

[00:18:38] Leslie raises concern about the divestment from open source by corporations and the impact on the open source maintainer ecosystem. Chad discusses the multiple roles of OSPOs beyond funding and the cultural importance of open source at Sentry, and he tells the story of Sentry’s attempt to support every project on GitHub through GitHub sponsors and the challenges encountered.

[00:22:57] Chad acknowledges the effort required to sponsor every project, mentioning the help of thanks.dev crew and the need for better tools to simplify the process. He also introduces FOSS Funders, a platform started by Dwayne O’Brien, and explains the group’s activities and its Slack community.

[00:27:25] Abby inquires about how companies can join FOSS Funders and get their logos featured. Chad details how companies can participate in FOSS Funders through platforms, and the next phases of FOSS Funders.

[00:29:12] Abby shares how her and Chad met and making his special business cards which are pennies with a logo punched into them.

[00:32:14] Find out where you can learn more about Chad and his work on the web. He also touches on the connection and the need for honest conversations about sustainability in the community.

[00:05:26] “The open source community is not monolithic.”

[00:06:42] “There’s all these idealistic youths who put all of this software out there into the world, and then waking up ten years later totally burned out because they poured themselves out writing all this open source software.”

[00:09:20] “We need other companies to join us.”

[00:09:44] “We also need a better name for the non-commercial, sponsorable part of the community.”

[00:09:57] “Let’s make this real, let’s make this sustainable.”

[00:10:06] “It needs to be weird for companies not to do what Sentry is doing.”

[00:12:43] “If we’re going to do this Pledge1%, giving to open source is part of that.”

[00:13:09] “Open source is core to our company culture. And also, we’ve been there.”

[00:14:40] “Personal opinion: I think this line-item should be software, and not charity.”

[00:15:38] “Public goods are IOR: Invest On Return.”

[00:17:29] “Public goods are provisioned in two ways: taxes or shame.”

[00:23:00] “We need to start telling stories about the companies that are doing it.”

Special Guest: Chad Whitacre.

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Carlos Martinez-Ortiz | Shoaib Sufi

Richard Littauer

In this episode, Richards welcomes his two guests, Carlos Martinez, Scientific Community Manager at the Netherlands eScience center, and Shoaib Sufi, Community Lead at the Software Sustainability Institute. They both represent a vibrant community dedicated to the long-term sustainability of research software and open source projects in the sciences. Today, our discussion navigates the “WoSSS” (Workshop on Sustainable Software Sustainability) and its evolution, taking a deep dive into the challenges and solutions surrounding software sustainability. They explore the crossroads of open source and research software and the importance of funding for such sustainable efforts. Additionally, they reflect on the future of workshops, hinting at potential refinements to address evolving community needs. This episode emphasizes the need for knowledge exchange, networking, and community building while contemplating future pathways in this evolving field. Hit download now to hear more!

[00:01:25] The WoSSS refers to efforts to look at the long-term sustainability of software research and other sectors. It involves various organizations and alliances interested in software sustainability.

[00:03:15] Shoaib discusses the relationship between open source software and research software, highlighting that they share common principles and methods, though they may not always be driven by the same goals.

[00:04:12] Shoaib provides clarification about the funding of the Software Sustainability Institute, explaining that it’s funded by multiple UK research and innovation funding agencies.

[00:05:00] Carlos explains that the Netherlands eScience center is the national center for research software expertise in the Netherlands, focusing on developing research software with a strong preference for open source licensing.

[00:06:32] Shoaib and Carlos discuss the origins and evolution of the WoSSS, which started as a knowledge exchange workshop and expanded to cover various topics related to research software sustainability, preservation, and infrastructure.

[00:08:43] Richard inquires about the types of community members who participate in WoSSS workshops. Shoaib mentions that the workshops aim to bring together funders, leaders, middle managers, developers, and individuals interested in research software sustainability to foster discussions.

[00:10:19] Carlos explains the concept of “sustained software sustainability” as a pyramid with research software at the top, followed by the need to sustain it and the creation of a research landscape that supports long-term software sustainability efforts.

[00:13:35] Shoaib mentions that the workshops aim to benefit participants by offering opportunities for them to contribute and discuss topics, crating reports to recognize their contributions. He explains that participants include individuals empowered by their universities to share information within their institutions.

[00:17:41] Richard questions whether the participants who attend these workshops are often empowered by their institutions to share the knowledge they gain, and he also asks about the tools provided to help them communicate with researchers. Carlos emphasizes the importance of networking opportunities during the workshops, where participants can connect with people in the field who share similar challenges and goals.

[00:19:12] Shoaib discusses the role of Research Software Engineering (RSE) groups at universities, which often perform functions similar to OSPOs in terms of supporting research software development and training. He provides an example of a case where a research group decided to use a restrictive open source license to retain control of their IP for commercial purposes.

[00:22:54] Shoaib summarizes the key takeaways from the workshops, including the importance of FAIR Principles for Research Software and the need for ongoing software sustainability.

[00:25:04] Shoaib explains that there’s been a desire to merge WSBI and WoSSS but that the future direction of WoSSS is being considered. Carlos reflects on how evolving landscape of similar workshops and initiatives has prompted the need for reflection on the future direction of WoSSS. Shoaib emphasizes the need to determine the purpose and audience of WoSSS in the future.

[00:29:13] We learn that WoSSS is currently in a period of reflection, and future directions for it are being considered.

[00:32:49] Shoaib shares final thoughts and talks about the project around research software quality, which is bringing various research infrastructures together. He also mentions the hidden REF.

Special Guests: Carlos Martinez-Ortiz and Shoaib Sufi.

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Kyle Wiens

Richard Littaueropen-source

Hello and welcome to Sustain! Richard is in Portland at FOSSY, the Free and Open Source Software Yearly conference that is held by the Software Freedom Conservancy. In this exciting episode, Richard welcomes Kyle Wiens, the driving force behind iFixit, a large open source collection of user-generated repair manuals. Born out of a response to Apple’s stringent copyright regime on their service manuals, iFixit has grown into the most extensive collection of medical service manuals for hospitals. Kyle shares his journey from combating copyright laws to working on right to repair laws for everyday devices like tractors. From discussing locks on toasters to exploring the use of Linux and WINE on John Deere tractors, Kyle offers an insightful glimpse into the world of repair, open source contributions, and the potential futures of hardware. Press download now to hear more cool stuff!

[00:00:46] Kyle explains that iFixit is a large open source collection of repair manuals. The manuals are created by the users, not sources from other companies, and they are the largest collection of medical service manuals for hospitals, from ventilators to vital sign monitors since the COVID-19 pandemic.

[00:02:08] Kyle explains that iFixit is a for-profit company that sells parts and tools. He also mentions his friendship with Scotty Allen from Strange Parts.

[00:03:08] Richard brings up the topic of legal implications surrounding iFixit and Kyle explains that while they do receive takedown notices, they’ve never been sued. He discusses how they deal with these notices, providing a detailed analysis of fair use.

[00:05:27] Richard asks about LEGO building guides on iFixit, to which Kyle mentions a separate website dedicated to it.

[00:06:04] We hear about the “Right to Repair” laws they are advocating for in various states. Kyle discusses the success of passing four bills in three states, focusing on electric wheelchairs and tractors, a consumer electronics bill passes in New York, and a law passed in Minnesota.

[00:09:00] Kyle tells us his perspective about the intersection between right to repair and open source.

[00:11:07] Richard asks Kyle if he collaborates with groups like Software Freedom Conservancy to circumvent these protections, and he confirms and gives an example of their work with “Right to Repair” laws for tractors.

[00:12:46] What’s exciting for Kyle about this conference? Kyle expresses optimism about the conference and the potential of transferring the momentum from the right to repair movement to the open source world.

[00:13:33] Kyle suggests that open source contributors can help by assigning their copyrights to the Conservancy, aiming to get GPL software into as much physical hardware as possible.

[00:14:46] You can go to iFixit.com for guidance on fixing their devices and find out where you can follow Kyle online.

Special Guest: Kyle Wiens.

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Dr. Bryan G. Behrenshausen

Leslie Hawthorn | Abby Cabunoc Mayes

In this episode, hosts Leslie Hawthorn from Red Hat and Abby Cabunoc Mayes from GitHub, welcome Dr. Bryan G. Behrenshausen, a Senior Open Source Program Manager at GitLab. This episode delves deep into the world of open source, discussing its importance, challenges, and how companies like GitLab and GitHub are navigating and supporting the open source community. Bryan showcases GitLab’s initiatives to support open source communities, touching on programs like the GitLab for Open Source, and the exclusive GitLab Open Source Partners program. Throughout the conversation topics like guidelines for diving into open source projects, the intrinsic link between open source and business strategy, and the role of effective social interaction in the open source realm are explored. The significance of maintaining transparent documentation, policies, and processes in an open source environment is also emphasized. Press download now to hear more!

[00:01:29] Bryan tells us about his role at GitLab, where he operates at the interface between GitLab, the company, and the broader GitLab community, focusing on open source contributions.

[00:03:23] Leslie inquires about specific support mechanisms GitLab offers to open source maintainers and Bryan mentions two significant programs at GitLab: The GitLab for Open Source program and The GitLab Open Source Partners program. He lists some major projects associated with the GitLab Open Source Partners program like Debian, Arch, Fedora, etc.

[00:08:45] Bryan emphasizes the importance of sustainability and how being a part of a community can provide support, best practices, and even commiseration.

[00:10:01] Abby points out the challenges of community interaction on platforms like GitHub and asks Bryan about the impact of his efforts on community building at GitLab.

Bryan acknowledges the challenges and notes that while they’re seeing progress in community building, it’s an ongoing effort.

[00:11:38] We hear how Bryan is handling open source projects that just need a private repository for security releases.

[00:12:38] Leslie mentions the significance of sharing policies and processes publicly, particularly in Europe, given the legislative environment. Bryan explains how GitLab implements a management model called “team ops” for best practices in an all-remote environment.

[00:13:33] Leslie stresses the importance of documentation, and Bryan shares that GitLab is active on Discord, and he tells the story of how the community started the server and later handed it to GitLab.

[00:15:33] Abby praises both GitLab and Red Hat for running open source projects and documentation. Bryan highlights the challenges and decisions behind using Discord.

[00:16:50] Bryan provides context for the open leadership assessment and talks about how open source principles impact organizational culture and design, he mentions he’ll be speaking with Heidi Hess von Ludewig about one of his favorite projects at All Things Open-2023, and we hear about the “open source way,” which is another project he worked on.

[00:20:58] Leslie raises the topic of interplay between work in communities and the responsibilities to employers, and Bryan explores the complexities of working in open source, the challenges, and frictions when balancing between community engagement and organizational objectives.

[00:24:26] Abby asks if GitLab is offering guidelines for diving into open source projects. Bryan responds that GitLab’s handbook provides some basic guides but lacks a full-fledged open source programs office.

[00:25:42] Leslie discusses a trend in technology industry where companies scale back on their open source program office staff, especially during rough economic times, and Bryan talks about the intertwined nature of open source and business strategy in certain organizations, and how the open source strategy is essential from top to bottom.

[00:28:27] Leslie suggests that achieving business outcomes can be smoother with the right tools, including the skills for effective social interactions in the open source realm.

[00:03:45] “We owe it to the open source ecosystem of which we are a part to make sure that ecosystem is healthy and vibrant and has what it needs.”

[00:19:45] “I just think that open source communities are really fascinating Petri dishes of self-organization and self-governance.”

[00:24:02] “Participation in open source projects is all but unavoidable today as an organization.”

Special Guest: Dr. Bryan Behrenshausen.

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Amanda Casari | Julie Ferraioli | Juniper Lovato

Richard Littauer

In today’s episode of Sustain, Richard is joined by guests, Amanda Casari, devrel engineer and open source researcher at Google Open Source Programs Office, Julie Ferraioli, an independent open source strategist, researcher, practitioner, and Partner at Open Chapters, and Juniper Lovato, Director of partnerships and programs at the Vermont Complex Systems Center at UVM and Data Ethics researcher. Amanda, Julia, and Juniper join the discussion, bringing a wealth of expertise in the open source domain. The conversation gravitates towards an article co-authored by the guests, striking a balance between open source software and open source ecosystems research. The episode dives deep into the “10 simple things” format of the article, the crucial importance of collective conversations, and a keen exploration of open source researchers. Hit download now to hear more cool stuff!

[00:01:29] Richard tells us why he invited our three guests today and he talks about their previous accomplishments and backgrounds.

[00:02:17] Our discussion moves to the title of a new article co-authored by the guests. We hear about the intended audience of the article and the distinction made between open source software and open source ecosystems research.

[00:03:31] Richard brings up where the article fits in the academic landscape, and it’s revealed to be more editorial than research.

[00:04:17] There’s a conversation about the “10 simple things” format, its origin, and the motivation behind it. They put an emphasis on the need for collective conversation and the value of sharing experiences and knowledge.

[00:07:28] Richard brings up the idea of open source researchers and mentions various figures and institutions involved in open source research. Juniper clarifies the target audience for the article and its intentions, Julie shares her perspective from the industry side and the importance of a critical framework, and Amanda expresses her emotional response to some researchers’ approach towards the open source community.

[00:12:03] Julie discusses the emotional challenges that inspired the paper’s best practices emphasizing not repeating negative behaviors, and Juniper notes tension in research between benefits for the community and for the researchers emphasizing understanding norms and values for studying open source communities.

[00:13:52] Richard mentions there are nine principles in the paper and asks about the principle regarding treating open source ecosystems as systems “in production.” Amanda highlights the importance of considering the real-world impact of research in open source and mentions an incident where a university was banned from the Linux kernel due to disruptive changes.

[00:16:33] Julie emphasizes the potential broader impact on industry systems when modifying open source systems and she raises the point that tampering with open source systems might inadvertently affect critical infrastructure. Amanda comments on the increasing cybersecurity concerns around open source.

[00:19:18] Richard brings up a real-world example of a university introducing bugs to the Linux kernel and points out the need for considering ethical implications beyond just production systems.

[00:20:59] Richard draws parallels between addressing these issues and addressing racism, and Juniper adds that the scientific process is ongoing and should evolve with technology and societal values.

[00:21:53] Julie describes the complexity of open source funding and compensation and points out the challenge in understanding motivations and expectations of open source participants.

[00:24:07] Amanda emphasizes the difficulty of summarizing each section, noting that each one could be a chapter or book and she expresses her concerns about not just individual equity but organizational equity.

[00:25:59] Juniper raises the issue of invisible labor in open source.

[00:26:39] Julie highlights the importance of recognizing that open source repository data might not capture all the activity and contributions made by community members.

[00:27:37] Amanda discusses the challenges and importance of capturing data, especially when it may put individuals at risk. Juniper stresses the importance of involving communities in the research process and gaining their consent, ensuring their dignity, security, and privacy.

[00:29:49] Julie discusses the complexities of identity within the open source community, highlighting that individuals can hold multiple identities in this space.

[00:31:10] Richard adds that the insight shared are not just for open source researchers but also for anyone involved in the open source ecosystem. He emphasizes the need to be aware of biases and the importance of understanding the data one works with.

[00:32:22] Richard prompts a summary of the main points in the paper, which are read by our guests.

[00:34:48] Find out where you can learn more about our guests and their work online.

[00:20:08] “Production as the end line for ethical values leads to a lot of really thorny edge cases that are going to ultimately hurt the communities of people who aren’t working on production ready systems.”

[00:21:20] “Just as open source is always in production, so is the scientific process.”

[00:23:24] “Even having the privilege of time to dedicate to open source is not available to all.”

[00:24:26] “It’s just not individual equity but organizational equity.”

[00:25:47] “We can’t ignore the very large industry that is open source that has all that money moving around and where it’s going is a question we should all be asking.”

[00:26:00] “There’s a lot of invisible labor in open source.”

[00:28:32] “Leaving out communities from the scientific process of the research process leaves open these vulnerabilities without giving them a voice to what kind of research is being done about them without their consent.”

[00:29:17] “What we are starting to consider acceptable surveillance in public is really being challenged.”

[00:29:33] “It’s really important for us to make sure that we’re maintaining people’s dignity, security, and privacy while we’re doing this kind of research.”

Special Guests: Amanda Casari, Julia Ferraioli, and Juniper Lovato.

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Emily Omier

Richard Littauer

Hello and welcome to Sustain! Richard is in Portland at FOSSY, the Free and Open Source Software Yearly conference that is held by the Software Freedom Conservancy. Today, we chat with Emily Omier, a revenue strategy and positioning consultant who helps open source startups accelerate revenue and community growth. Based in Paris, Emily lends her expertise to primarily European startups, helping them navigate their unique challenges and carve out a profitable strategy. We discuss her approach, which connects perfectly with her marketing background with company and product alignment in the open source space. We also touch on the critical role open source workers play in business profitability. Press download now to hear more!

[00:00:47] Emily explains her role as a consultant who works with open source businesses to help them clarify their commercial strategy and positioning.

[00:01:24] Emily reveals that she’s originally from Portland but currently resides in Paris. She serves both the European and American market and shares why she finds the European ecosystem more interesting.

[00:03:00] Richard inquires about Emily’s approach to improving profit margins for European startups through open source strategy. Emily explains that her clients are typically companies that have already decided to be open.

[00:05:56] Emily tells us that her ideal clients are relatively small startups that have some revenue and a commercial offering.

[00:07:21] The topic of marketing comes up and Emily explains that although her background is in marketing, her current role involves various parts of a company, not just marketing. She discusses the importance of knowing the company’s identity, understanding the target user for the opens source project, and aligning product development with the company’s story.

[00:10:06] We find out that Emily works mainly with founders and has never worked directly with a community or an Open Source Program Office (OSPO). She emphasizes the importance of open source workers in big businesses being able to articulate how their work in open source contributes to the company’s bottom line.

[00:11:45] How did Emily get into this field if she hasn’t worked with open source communities? She goes in depth how she was working in marketing with Kubernetes companies in the cloud native sphere, where she found a significant overlap with open source communities.

[00:13:43] Find out where you can learn more about Emily online.

Special Guest: Emily Omier.

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Karen Sandler

Richard Littauer

Hello and welcome to Sustain! Richard is in Portland at FOSSY, the Free and Open Source Software Yearly conference that is held by the Software Freedom Conservancy.

In this episode, Richard is joined by Karen Sandler, Executive Director at Software Freedom Conservancy. Today, they discuss the various aspects of organizing a conference, emphasizing ethical considerations, precautions taken, software freedom, community involvement, GNOME pronunciation, and highlight community contributions and the balance between using open source and proprietary software. They explore topics like DRM, exemptions, coordination on renewals, the challenge of “trafficking provision,” and the global influence of U.S. law. Hit download now to hear more!

[00:00:35] Karen discusses the challenges of organizing the conference but praises her staff.

[00:01:18] Richard and Karen discuss conference inspiration, focus on software freedom, and avoiding corporate noise. There’s an overview of talks and speakers, and a discussion on the correct pronunciation of “GNOME.”

[00:03:46] Karen mentions attending the keynote session, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and reflects on the complexity of organizing with ethical considerations.

[00:04:22] Richard asks Karen if there’s any controversies she’s had to weather at the conference, and she talks about COVID precautions, collaboration with charities, ethical practices in organizing, and how high school students have contributed to the event’s success.

[00:06:53] Richard questions Karen about the balance between using open source and proprietary software for practicality. Karen emphasizes the need for thoughtful decisions about using proprietary software, reflecting on the realistic choices to ensure software freedom.

[00:09:14] Karen mentions having a nice coffee chat session with Kyle Wiens, and working together on 1201 materials, referring to the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). She further discusses about how the 1201 provision affects people.

[00:11:27] The conversation takes a shift to discussing the trafficking term. They begin discussing potential legislation and the frustrations around applying for limited exemptions.

[00:12:28] Richard questions why they focus so much on U.S. law instead of working in a country without restrictive laws. Karen explains the global impact of the U.S. law and how other countries often follow suit.

[00:14:15] They discuss the lobbying impact of big companies and how they can influence laws even in small countries. Also, Karen shares being grateful for the ability to criticize and work within the system, the idea of working in another place, and the need for a global movement.

[00:15:25] Find out where you can learn more about Software Freedom Conservancy and Karen.

Special Guest: Karen Sandler.

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Sophia Vargas

Richard Littauer | Leslie Hawthorn

In this episode, Richard and Leslie welcome guest Sophia Vargas, a Researcher and Program Manager at Google. Sophia’s journey from data center research to the open source ecosystem is explored, and the tactical support she provides to projects. She highlights the challenge of understanding contributors’ motivations, particularly in the context of financial incentives. The episode explores Google’s role in open source, delves into the complexities of funding and motivation, and uncovers the often unseen “glue work” that binds open source communities together. Tune in to gain insights into the dynamic world of open source sustainability and the quest of a balanced ecosystem. Download this episode now!

[00:02:07] Sophia explains her transition from data center infrastructure research to open source ecosystem research. She discusses her role in understanding how Google interacts with open source and supports projects.

[00:05:26] Sophia emphasizes the importance of understanding motivation in open source contributions, noting that financial incentives aren’t the primary driver. She discusses Google’s role in open source and its investments in various programs and engagements. Her research also delves into understanding why people contribute to open source and what keeps them engaged.

[00:09:42] We hear how Sophia overlaps between her work in the CHAOSS community and her research at Google, particularly in metrics and understanding project dynamics.

[00:12:16] Richard raises a question on how open source projects can receive funding without becoming overly dependent on it. Sophia explains that she’s actively researching this topic to understand the dynamics of funding and motivation in open source. She mentions her previous research has focused on contributors’ motivations, and now she’s investigating how money impacts those motivations.

[00:16:48] Sophia emphasizes that the core focus of her research is on understanding individual contributors and how money might affect their involvement. She points out the challenges of determining the impact of different funding levels on contributors’ behavior.

[00:18:25] She mentions the potential impact of formal agreements and expectations tied to funding and the discussion touches on how projects can shift from being hobbies to more professional roles due to funding.

[00:20:31] Richard asks about existing research in fields beyond open source that might shed light on this issue, and Sophia mentions volunteer energy research and discusses the gaps in understanding the complex relationship between individuals, their motivations, and funding.

[00:22:49] Richard raises the questions of whether the motivations of young individuals, particularly from the global south, are aligned with contributing to open source, and Sophia shares her thoughts on this explaining how it’s difficult to measure.

[00:26:51] Leslie discusses the challenges of quantifying and acknowledging engagement that doesn’t manifest as code commits or traditional contributions. Sophia adds to this highlighting the “glue work” that often goes unnoticed, including tasks related to communication, event management, and coordination. She talks about ideas such as adapting processes to better track non-coding activities and using existing communication channels to reveal hidden contributions.

[00:33:13] Richard wonders how one can effectively limit and define the scope of open source given its extensive nature. Sophia cites a research effort by the Complex Systems Center that aimed to count open source activity outside of GitHub to highlight the ecosystem’s size, and she emphasizes the importance of seeking exposure to diverse open source spaces, projects, conferences, and ideals to avoid bias and gain a comprehensive understanding.

[00:36:32] Find out where you can follow Sophia on the web.

Special Guest: Sophia Vargas.

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Richard Littauer

Karen Sandler

Hello and welcome to Sustain! In this episode, the tables are turned today as Karen Sandler takes over as host, interviewing our very own Richard Littauer. Recorded at the Free and Open Source Yearly conference, the discussion delves into Richard’s evolving perspective on sustainability in open source projects. His experiences attending multiple conferences have led him to question the term ‘sustainability,’ advocating instead for a shift towards values such as human rights, joy, and mitigating harm. Also, Richard and Karen explore the significance of user rights, copyleft licensing, and GPL, voicing concerns over the erosion of these rights. They end with a discussion on the systemic complexities in the open source world, the potential for a new community approach to sustainable code, and an emphasis on collective action and personal joy. Press download to hear more cool stuff!

[00:00:58] Richard offers a detailed insight into his talk. He explains his perspective on sustainability, suggesting it may not be the most fitting term when applied to the open source community. He shares his experience attending multiple sustain conferences and how it shaped his views, and discusses sustainability for developers, touching upon burnout, recognition, and issues of dependency, supply chain, security, and legal issues.

[00:03:31] He notes the wide range of topics covered in the Sustain podcasts, highlighting the complexity of sustainability. He questions the usefulness of the term ‘sustainability’ and suggests we need to focus on what truly matters in life, such as human rights, mitigating harm, and seeking joy.

[00:04:39] Karen reviews the flow of Richard’s talk, and he summarizes his talk questioning the emphasis on sustainability and growth, recommending instead to focus on joy and relieving suffering.

[00:05:55] Richard advocates for focusing on personal fulfillment and societal impact instead of simply growth and funding. He emphasizes that the ultimate goal should be about human rights, liberties, and happiness.

[00:07:20] Karen wonders if Richard is going to rename the podcast. He maintains his support for open source but stresses the importance of focusing on impact and human values. He emphasizes the importance of considering one’s own project in the larger context and evaluating its actual importance.

[00:08:47] Richard discusses the importance of GPL for user protections and shares concerns about devices locking users out, he shares his changing stance towards GPL and the impact of his code.

[00:09:36] Karen and Richard discuss the potential for a new community approach to sustainable code, and Richard suggests that sharing stories and rethinking relationships with technology is a way forward.

[00:10:46] Karen asks Richard about his views on corporate power, and he explains how his view has evolved.

[00:12:04] They discuss the systematic problems and individual roles within them. Richard explores the conundrum of trying to change a system from the inside or outside, and he prefers to use his knowledge and privilege to make an impact rather than disengage from the system.

[00:13:41] Thinking back to all the conversations Richard’s had about the sustain movement, he shares his favorite conversation with Dominic Tarr, who left coding to pursue personal joy. Karen emphasizes the need for collective action to address systemic problems.

[00:16:01] Find out where you can follow Richard and his projects online.

Special Guest: Richard Littauer.

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