Talking Europe

Talking Europe meets one of Spain’s most seasoned diplomats, and a close confidant of the Spanish prime minister. José Manuel Albares is Spain’s foreign minister, and a former ambassador to France. We discuss the fall of the Assad regime in Syria, war in the Middle East, Ukraine, the Mercosur free trade agreement – which Spain strongly champions – and migration. 

Asked about the toppling of the Assad regime, Albares says: “It's always good news when dictatorships fall, but we have to be very cautious about what is next. When a dictatorship falls, that doesn't mean that democracy appears the next day. For me, there are three things that are essential. First, this military movement must be transformed into a political movement as soon as possible. We don't want the military movement deciding the future of Syria. The second thing is that Syrian society is a pluralistic society, so the future Syria must include everyone, whatever their religion or wherever they come from. And the third thing is that we must preserve the territorial integrity of Syria. We don't want parts of Syria to be in the hands of different groups. Syria must be a source of stability, and not adding more instability to a Middle East that already has too much of that.” 

We continued discussing the Middle East, and Spain’s recognition of the state of Palestine. 

“We are already 145 countries, the majority of the international community, that have recognised the state of Palestine, as well as 11 European Union countries,” Albares says. “I think this is a matter of justice for the Palestinian people. I don't see why Palestinians must be condemned to be eternally a refugee people. The two-state solution also takes into consideration the legitimate security concerns of the Israeli people. We know that is the only solution that will bring peace, stability and prosperity definitively to the Middle East. That's why we are calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and the implementation of the two-state solution.” 

On Donald Trump’s return to power and what that might mean for Ukraine, Albares says, “only the Ukrainian government is entitled to talk on behalf of Ukraine and what they want to do, or not to do, in the future. So nothing should be done about Ukraine without Ukraine. I would also say: nothing about Ukraine without the European Union, because the European Union has been helping Ukraine since the very beginning. And we are going to do that for as long as it takes. So, for all those reasons, we must back President Zelensky’s peace plan.” 

Asked about the Mercosur (EU-Latin America) free trade agreement, which is fiercely opposed by France in its current form, Albares opines that “it would be a very serious mistake” not to move forward with the deal. “Firstly, because Mercosur is ready to move ahead, and the majority of European Union countries is in favour. This is going to create the largest market in the world, of 700 million people, with benefits for the European economy. In this time of war in Ukraine and war in the Middle East, we in Europe really need partners. This is not only a trade deal for Latin America; it's also a strong signal of the political engagement that the Europeans will want to have with Latin America.” 

Programme prepared by Isabelle Romero, Perrine Desplats and Oihana Almandoz 

Today, the EU’s Green Deal faces pressure from an atmosphere of economic crisis: car factories in Germany are set to close, farmers protesting about excessive environmental protection measures, soaring energy bills for households. But as the recent floods in Spain have shown, the issue of the climate crisis remains unavoidable for Europe’s leaders. Ursula von der Leyen herself promised in 2019 that the EU would be carbon neutral by 2050. In 2024, the Commission president says the next step of the Green Deal is the Clean Industrial Deal or how the EU can better support its industry and European competitiveness, all while striving for those environmental goals. The Political landscape of 2024 is very different to that of 2019 with populist parties seizing seats in the European parliament, often at the expense of Green MEPs.     

Programme prepared by Isabelle Romero, Luke Brown and Perrine Desplats

Georgia is sinking deeper into crisis, as a pro-European protest movement is met with a severe police crackdown that has been condemned by EU officials. Our guest has been out in the streets every night, demonstrating against the ruling party’s decision to pause Georgia’s EU membership process, and in protest at the recent parliamentary election which the pro-European camp is convinced was rigged – a view backed up by the EU parliament and by the joint observation mission of several western organisations. Giorgi Baramidze is a former state minister for Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic Integration, and a former deputy prime minister of Georgia.

“Georgians are really very angry,” Baramidze says. “According to all the opinion polls, 80 percent of our citizens strongly support EU and NATO integration. So these days were very turbulent because the ruling party completely rigged the elections in October – which was recognised by a recent European parliament resolution – and then they declared that they are going to stop Georgia’s EU membership process. That, by the way, is against Georgia’s constitution. Article 78 says that every Georgian authority and institution must do its utmost to achieve Georgia’s EU and NATO membership. So they went against the constitution.”   

Asked about the tactics used by the police and the interior ministry, Baramidze responds, “they are very brutal. They are chasing people, even to private homes, to offices, to pharmacies, and far away from the parliament building when the protests are happening. They are beating them brutally, and with absolutely no consequences. We seriously suspect that there are not only policemen but also organised mob groups mobilised by the government. Because, if you see the pictures, they don't have identification numbers. They are absolutely in black, covering their faces, and nobody knows who they are. And if they commit any crime or violence, nobody can investigate this.” 

Baramidze contends that many members of the security forces “have been brainwashed. They say, ‘we don't want to Georgia become a gay country’, and things like that. The reality is that we want to be a part of Europe. This is a historic dream of the Georgian people. But Putin obviously doesn't want this. He doesn't want Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine to be free, to be part of the democratic club, to be part of civilised society. He doesn’t want the countries around Russia to be successful, happy and prosperous.” 

The Baltic members of the EU have announced sanctions on Georgian officials deemed to be responsible for the crackdown, while Ukraine has announced measures not just against the Georgian prime minister but also against the billionaire Bidzina Ivanishvili, often called the ‘éminence grise’ of Georgian politics. Will any of this make a difference? 

“It will make a difference, absolutely,” Baramidze responds.  Because these people are lying to their subordinates that nothing will happen. That the Europeans will just make some noise, and then everything will be okay – you can still go with your families to Milan, to Paris for shopping. Your kids still can still study abroad in the United States, in European countries. But this time, I'm absolutely confident that anyone who is at the top of this pro-Russian criminal organisation named Georgian Dream, as well as their subordinates, will be severely sanctioned and punished.” 

We put it to Baramidze that Georgian Prime Minister Irakli Kobakhidze considers the protest movement an attempt at a coup d’état, with demonstrators seeking another Maidan-style regime change. Is that in fact the goal of the protesters? Or is their goal simply to re-run the parliamentary election? 

“We don't need any violence,” he replies. “Our people's goal [is] to get rid of this criminal gang from the government. Therefore, we call for free and fair elections, as reflected in the European parliament’s resolution. We need free and fair elections organised and monitored by the European Union, not by the pocket Central Electoral Committee. And of course we want a civilised, peaceful change of government. In 2012, President Saakashvili recognised defeat and handed over power peacefully to Georgian Dream. That's how it happens in normal European countries. That's how it happened in Georgia as well.” 

Programme prepared by Luke Brown, Isabelle Romero and Perrine Desplats 

The war in Ukraine has entered what some officials say could be its most dangerous phase, with Kyiv now using Western-supplied missiles to strike deeper inside Russia, and Russia reported to be using North Korean troops in Ukraine. There is even talk in some Western capitals of sending troops to Ukraine – something that has been floated in the past by French president Emmanuel Macron. Meanwhile there is nervousness in Europe about what the incoming US president’s peace plan for Ukraine might entail – Donald Trump keeping his cards close to his chest. So what diplomatic and military role should the EU be playing?

Programme prepared by Perrine Desplats, Isabelle Romero and Luke Brown

Social media platforms play an increasingly important role in election campaigns, as the first round of the Romanian presidential election – in which a NATO-sceptic populist came out on top – amply demonstrates. Our guest is Mariya Gabriel, a former EU Commissioner for the Digital Economy and Innovation, who is well placed to discuss social media and disinformation, particularly in the context of southeastern Europe. We also talk to her about the new EU Commission's announcement of a "Competitiveness Compass" initiative, and the rolling political crisis in Gabriel's home country, Bulgaria.

Asked about Calin Georgescu's win in the first round of the presidential election in Romania, Gabriel says: "Romania is an important state for the European Union and for NATO. But we really need to draw some lessons from the role of social media [in the election]." She notes: "There are questions about the role of TikTok. Speaking as former EU Commissioner on Digital Economy, it is important not to lose digital platforms as channels for citizens to engage with political debate. But we have to make sure that the platforms respect standards, and transparency of the algorithms.”

"Populist demagogues are using fear and disappointment to increase their support," Gabriel goes on. "We have to pay attention to this, because in Bulgaria and in Romania, we have people that are instrumentalising these fields. That's why the other parties that are pro-European, pro-NATO, pro-Ukraine, they have to innovate in their narratives, in their actions, to engage with citizens based on facts and very clear positions. This is an everyday struggle, and we can’t ignore these new realities."

We also discuss the geopolitical direction of the new EU Commission, which was approved by the European Parliament in a vote on November 27. Is President Ursula von der Leyen's "Competitiveness Compass" really a new initiative, or simply a re-packaging of existing commitments?

"What I see is that all the efforts that we made during the last five years are now bearing fruit. There is more and more awareness of how important it is to tackle the innovation gap," Gabriel responds. "Let's not forget that Europe in the 1990s was 25 percent of the global economy, and now it’s 16 percent. I very much welcome the first announced initiative by the European Commission. Of course I would like to now see concrete proposals. What about the budget? What about the cooperation between universities and businesses? What about access to data or skills for small productivity firms, and cooperation with the big corporations? What about the mobility of researchers, and attracting talent in Europe? We need to think bigger. And we need much more rapid action."

In October, Bulgarians were asked to vote for the seventh time in four years because of the failure of the country's political parties to agree on forming a coalition government. We put it to Gabriel that public trust in politics must be rock bottom.

"My message is very clear. Bulgaria does not have time to lose, so it's up to all the politicians to be responsible and to stop wasting time," she answers.

"Unfortunately, at this stage, I don't see real progress. And this is something that makes me fear. What about other political forces, like what happened in Romania, that will use this vacuum to play their games? Because let's not forget, Bulgaria is strategically important for the European Union. We are at the crossroads of so many crucial topics, from energy to food and protection of borders. So I think that, more than ever, we need politicians that take their responsibility [seriously] and work for the benefit of our citizens."

Programme prepared by Luke Brown, Oihana Almandoz and Perrine Desplats

A recent shootout over drug trafficking in France that degenerated into a massive fight between rival gangs, involving hundreds of people, prompted authorities to compare the French state to Mexico – the land of drug cartels. For Interior Minister Bruno Retailleau, France's drug problem is "at a tipping point". But this is not just happening in France. The EU's law enforcement agency Europol says that several member states are experiencing unprecedented levels of drug-related violence. 

So is the EU losing its grip on organised crime? And what could the joint solutions be? We discuss this with two MEPs who are both on the European Parliament's Committee on Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs.

Programme prepared by Perrine Desplats, Isabelle Romero and Luke Brown

The EU believes it has an offer than can effectively counter China worldwide – its Global Gateway Investment Strategy. Jutta Urpilainen, the outgoing European Commissioner for International Partnerships, is adamant that this strategy offers long-term human development and avoids the debt traps that Chinese investment in Africa has come with. "We don’t want to create new dependencies," she tells Talking Europe. We discuss the impact that Global Gateway has had since its inception in 2021, as well as the EU's apparent shift in focus towards migration and border security, and what that means for its international partnerships.

But first, on the return of Donald Trump and what "America First" could mean for the West’s overall development assistance, Urpilainen responds: "It's very hard to predict, but I hope that the United States is still committed to multilateralism and the rules-based international order. When it comes to official development assistance, or ODA, the European Union and the US together provide around 70 to 80 percent of the global ODA. So I, of course, hope that the US stays committed to providing ODA funding."

Some have questioned the EU's own commitment to development aid, however, as an EU budget proposal to shift €2.6 billion from development in order to tackle migration has gone through. This means long-term aid is being undermined, surely? "I hope that won’t be the case," Urpilainen replies. "I hope that external funding and development cooperation will be maintained in the next Multi-Financial Framework. We face many kinds of security threats. Russia is not the only one. We also have climate change. We have migration, we have terrorism. And in order to be able to address those security challenges, we need international cooperation. We need international partnerships."

The commissioner stresses that human development is a key concern for the EU.  "That's why, for instance, in Senegal, we invest a lot in vocational education and training in order to provide opportunities for young people. There are 17 million citizens in Senegal at the moment. 70 percent of them are below 30 years old. And if we look at the forecast, by 2050, there will be 40 million citizens in Senegal. Can we stop them coming to Europe by building a fence or a wall? No. The only way to stop that is to invest and support them to develop their society. We can never stop migration by building walls."

Elaborating on Europe's "offer" in Africa, Urpilainen suggests that, unlike China, the EU doesn’t want to create new dependencies. "Many African countries have very high levels of debt, and a big portion of their revenues actually goes to debt servicing. That's why many of our partners, especially in Africa, have realised that China's offer – the Belt and Road Initiative – has actually caused this kind of huge debt dependency on China. And the reason why we wanted to create the Global Gateway Investment Strategy was to have our own positive offer. We wanted to support our partners in the Global South to achieve sustainable development goals, to boost investments in energy, in transport, in the digital sector, in education and in health. Since 2021, we have mobilised up to €179 billion worth of investments. We have 225 Global Gateway flagships across the world."

Turning to the controversial EU-Rwanda critical raw materials agreement, which has led to accusations that the EU is contributing to unrest in Rwanda's neighbour, the DR Congo, Urpilainen asserts: "One of the main objectives is to improve traceability and also fight illicit [minerals] trafficking. And we believe that through our memorandum of understanding and also the roadmap which is based on that MOU, we can make some concrete improvements. I met the prime minister of the Democratic Republic of Congo myself here in Brussels a couple of weeks ago, and we had a very constructive and good discussion. I think it has been clear from the beginning of this unfortunate conflict in the eastern DRC, that that we don't take sides. We really are keeping a balanced approach, and we have talked to both of the parties about the need to have a ceasefire and to end this conflict".

Programme prepared by Perrine Desplats, Isabelle Romero and Luke Brown

There is nervousness in Brussels about the incoming US administration. That is not just down to Donald Trump's plans for Ukraine, but also because of his pledge to slap tariffs on EU goods of at least 10 percent. Trump insists that the EU will have to "pay a big price" for not buying enough American exports. That could hit key industrial sectors hard, not least car manufacturing. And officials from the European Central Bank are now warning of the damage that US tariffs would do to economic growth in the eurozone. But is a trade war inevitable, or could the two sides negotiate an off-ramp? We put the question to two MEPs.

Programme prepared by Perrine Desplats, Isabelle Romero and Luke Brown

In an exclusive interview, FRANCE 24 and Radio France International sit down with France's minister for Europe and Foreign Affairs, Jean-Noël Barrot, who was appointed to the job in September. We discuss France's diplomatic initiatives in the Middle East, in Europe and in relation to Ukraine. Barrot addresses Donald Trump's dramatic return to power in the US and insists that US tariffs on Europe – which Trump has said he will impose – would be a "major error". Barrot says that, if Trump persists, France and Europe will defend their interests – their farmers and their industries – "with an iron will". Barrot also stresses that Europe now needs to accelerate the strategic autonomy agenda, in the face of the "global transformation that is happening now".

"The EU is the number one trade partner of the United States," Barrot states. "That is why it would be a major miscalculation for the US to slap tariffs on Europe in a massive and indiscriminate way. It would heavily penalise numerous American companies which are active in France and in Europe. And it would also penalise the American middle class, which buys a lot of products that come from Europe. So this kind of measure would hit the purchasing power of the American middle class. But if the Trump administration insists on pursuing what I call this major error, then we will defend our farmers, our industries and our trade with an iron will. What is an iron will? During Trump's first term in office there was perhaps a lack of preparation on Europe's part at the time. Back then, we were still very much in a free trade mentality. It was not the done thing to talk about sanctions, or about retaliating against unfair trade practices. But Europe has changed. You saw that last month, when Europe decided to apply tariffs on Chinese electric cars."

Asked whether Trump's victory is not the result that the EU had hoped for, Barrot says: "It's up to the American people to decide, it’s their sovereign choice. We have been working closely with the United States for 250 years. We have survived 59 American presidential elections, and we will obviously survive the 60th."

Does he think that Trump would abandon Ukraine? "I do not believe that Donald Trump will want to make gifts to Vladimir Putin, who is today weakened to the point of being forced to export the war to Asia, to get troops from North Korea in order to attack the Ukrainians," Barrot answers. "The Russian economy itself is on the verge of suffocation, with interest rates at 21 percent, labour shortages and an abysmal public deficit." Doing a quick deal that favours Putin would "enshrine the law of the strongest – 'might is right' – and it would have extremely serious consequences, not only in Europe, but everywhere else – the strongest, most aggressive powers would feel that it's safe for them to invade a neighbouring country. I think Donald Trump is too wise to go down in history as the person who endorsed the biggest land grab in our history", Barrot avers.

The top French diplomat admits, however, that Europe has a long way to go on the military aspect of strategic autonomy. "Eighty percent of our military procurement, in Europe, comes from outside the European Union," he points out. "This creates a dependency which is unacceptable, and in a sense it holds us back in our geostrategic choices. And that cannot continue as it is. This is why, as early as 2017, we were calling for our European defence industries to expand. At a time when France or Germany or Poland are increasing their defence spending, these increased expenditures have to be channelled into European industries."

We also touch on the recent spike in tensions between France and the Israeli government, following an incident in which Israeli police entered a French-owned compound in east Jerusalem, and briefly arrested two French gendarmes. In response, Barrot summoned the Israeli ambassador in France. "There are various diplomatic sanctions that can be activated, and we activated the most serious one," Barrot explains.

The French foreign minister goes on to take a hard line on Israeli settlement activity in the West Bank. "We have applied sanctions on several occasions, first of all against 28 violent and extremist individual settlers. But also at the European level, where we (France) were the drivers behind a new sanctions regime targeting individuals or entities that are responsible for this settlement activity, or complicit in it. We launched two rounds of sanctions against those individuals, and we are now working on a third round of sanctions at the European level," Barrot asserts.

Programme prepared by Luke Brown, Perrine Desplats, Isabelle Romero and Oihana Almandoz.

The EU likes to underline that enlargement towards the east is a security priority. And indeed, since the war in Ukraine started, accession negotiations have begun with several countries, most of them in the Balkans. But in a shock referendum result, barely over 50 percent of voters in Moldova said Yes to pro-EU constitutional changes. And in another shock for Brussels, Georgian Dream beat the staunchly pro-European opposition in the parliamentary election in Georgia; a vote whose integrity the EU has called into question.

So is the EU losing the battle for hearts and minds in some of the countries that initially set themselves on a European path?

To discuss this issue, we're joined by Romanian MEP Nicolae Stefanuta, vice president of the European Parliament and a substitute on the Delegation to the EU-Moldova Parliamentary Association Committee. He sits with the Group of the Greens.

We're also joined by Bulgarian MEP Kristian Vigenin, from the Socialists and Democrats, who is on the Delegation to the EU-North Macedonia Joint Parliamentary Committee, and a substitute on the EU-Moldova Parliamentary Association Committee.