Talking to Mormons

Romans 1-3 – Come Follow Me

https://talkingtomormons.com/podcast-player/4434/romans-1-3-come-follow.mp3

We will now begin to study the epistles in the New Testament.  The manual introduces them by saying, “The Bible epistles are letters written by Church leaders to Saints in various parts of the world.  The Apostle Paul wrote most of the epistles in the New Testament – starting with Romans and ending with Hebrews.  His epistles are organized by length.  Although Romans is the first epistle in the New Testament, it was actually written near the end of Pau’s missionary journeys.” 

Paul boldly declares his testimony by saying in Romans 1:16-17 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”   

Paul teaches us that everyone has received a knowledge of God.  Romans 1:19-20 “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” 

Romans 1-3 – Come Follow Me

https://talkingtomormons.com/podcast-player/4434/romans-1-3-come-follow.mp3

We will now begin to study the epistles in the New Testament.  The manual introduces them by saying, “The Bible epistles are letters written by Church leaders to Saints in various parts of the world.  The Apostle Paul wrote most of the epistles in the New Testament – starting with Romans and ending with Hebrews.  His epistles are organized by length.  Although Romans is the first epistle in the New Testament, it was actually written near the end of Pau’s missionary journeys.” 

Paul boldly declares his testimony by saying in Romans 1:16-17 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”   

Paul teaches us that everyone has received a knowledge of God.  Romans 1:19-20 “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” 

AvaChris, we have already discussed a couple of prophecies given by Joseph Smith that failed.  How many more of these prophecies are there?ChrisThere are quite a few, actually.   But all prophecies can be put into certain categories. There are 4 categories of prophecies:There are open-dated prophecies:  These are easy because they are given without a specific time frame for their fulfillment.There are self-fulfilling prophecies:  These can be fulfilled on one’s own and require no outside action or event.There are conditional prophecies:  These only come true if a certain condition exists.  If a situation changes, the prophesy may also change.There are close-dated and unconditional prophesies:  These are specific and must come true within a particular time frame – without any mitigating conditions. Source: https://coldcasechristianity.com/writings/can-we-trust-the-prophecies-of-joseph-smith/J. WarnerAvaWhat about the prophesy of the Temple that was supposed to be built in Independence, Missouri? ChrisThat one fits perfectly into the last category of prophecies – which are close-dated and unconditional prophesies:  These are specific and must come true within a particular time frame – without any mitigating conditions. AvaThe temple revelation was given on September 22nd and 23rd in the year 1832.  Joseph Smith foretold of an LDS temple that was to be built in Independence Missouri.  That prophesy can be found in Doctrine and Covenants Section 84, verses 2-5, 31.  I’ll read it: “Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.  Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.  Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city of New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared IN THIS GENERATION.  For verily THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT ALL PASS AWAY until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.  …which house shall be built unto the Lord IN THIS GENERATION, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed.”   That’s definitely an example of a close-dated, unconditional prophesy.   ChrisOver 185 years later, there is still no temple on the “temple lot” specified in this prophecy.  Yet, early Mormon leaders made it quite clear the word “generation” meant those who were alive when the revelation was given in 1832. 

President Heber C. Kimball“They are holy places, and they will be held sacred even as Jackson County..” “and I shall yet see the day that I will go back there, with brother Brigham and with thousands and millions of others, and we will go precisely according to the dedication of the Prophet of the living God.”

Elder George A. Smith“And let me remind you that it is predicted that this generation shall pass away till a temple shall be built, and the glory of the Lord rest upon it, according to the promises.”

Elder Orson Hyde“We believe in these promises as much as we believe in any promise ever uttered by the mouth of Jehovah. The Latter-day Saints just as much expect to receive a fulfillment of that promise during the generation that was in existence in 1832 as they expect that the sun will rise and set tomorrow. Why? Because God cannot lie. He will fulfill all His promises. He has spoken, it must come to pass. This is our faith.”

Joseph Fielding Smith“I firmly believe that there will be some of that generation who were livin

Mormonism claims to have the same organization that existed in the early Christian church, which was necessary to bring all believers into a unity of the faith.  But a close examination of the LDS church structure reveals that it is not the same organization as in Biblical times.   Here beginning in Chapter three, Paul is continuing to speak about the unity of the believers of God.  He will refer especially to the great “mystery” that was revealed in that dispensation.  Paul’s words are so beautifully and eloquently written. Chapter 3:1-4 “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles.  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery (that both Jews and Gentiles are brought together in one body in Christ); (as I wrote afore in few words, Where by when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ).”  Verses 5-7  “Which in other ages (ages past) was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit (none of the Old Testament prophets knew the meaning of this mystery, until it was revealed to Paul and the other apostles);  That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:  Whereof I was made a minister (by God Himself), according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power (which caused the gospel to work effectively in me).”  Verses 8-11 “Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints (the least deserving Christian there is), is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ (the infinite blessings of Christ).  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places (Angels and the entire realm of spiritual beings) might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,  According to the eternal purpose which he (the Father) proposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:”  Verses 16-21 “That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man (the Holy Spirit will energize the committed believer);  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded (solidly based) in love,  May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth (width), and length (extending into the eternities), and depth (His deep love), and height (suggests the vastness and completeness of His love);  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge (exceeds our ability to understand), that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.  Now unto him (the Father) that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power (of God) that worketh in us, Unto him (the Father) be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.  Amen.” Chapter 4 is very important in Mormonism because it contains – what the LDS believe – is strong Biblical evidence that there is one true (brick and mortar) church – one true organization.  Paul writes, Verse 4 “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;”   The LDS believe theirs is the one true church – and that they are the only ones who have the one Spirit – they call the gift of the Holy Ghost.  Verse 5 “One Lord, one faith, one baptism,” Mormonism claims that the LDS Church is the “one faith” and that all other churches are corrupt.  At least that’s what Joseph Smith claims he learned in the First Vision.  Yet there are 83 different church groups which point to Joseph Smith as their founder.  Each group charges that the other groups are improperly structured or completely apostate.

The Apostle Paul taught that we are saved by grace – it is the gift of God not of works.  Nephi taught that we are saved AFTER all we can do.  Joseph Smith taught that we are saved by obedience to laws and ordinances.  Either Paul was right, or Nephi and Joseph were right.  Only the Bible makes the truth clear for us. Paul starts out in Chapter 2:1-3 reminding the believers in Ephesus that they were once spiritually dead in their sins before they met Christ.  They were worldly, carnal, sinful, and alienated from God.  “And were BY NATURE the children of disobedience.”  Not born an innocent child of God – but born with a sin nature – day one.   These first three verses present a hopeless humanity – trapped in sin, unable to save itself.  Then Paul wrote the small but glorious words – Verse 4 “But God” Behind those two words lies a cosmic plan so huge in scope and so vast in love that the human mind cannot fully comprehend it – all we can do is humbly receive it.  Let’s read Verses 4-7 “But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great (agape self-less) love wherewith he loved us,  Even when were dead (spiritually) in sin, hath quickened us (has given us new spiritual life) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved);  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:  That in the ages to come (throughout the eternities) he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.”  Christ defeated sin and death through His atonement – thus offering spiritual life to those dead in sins.   The verb form “have been saved” refers to a past event with present and ongoing results.  As believers, we have already passed from death to life.  Salvation is not something to be waited for – but something that has already been delivered.  This passage teaches that we are seated with Christ now “in heavenly places.”  Meaning that we now belong to the heavenly kingdom of God and are one with Him.  We now – while on earth – have an intimate relationship with God. The next couple of verses were conveniently skipped over in the Sunday School and Individual/family manuals.  As we cover them, I think you’ll understand why the Curriculum department of the LDS Church wouldn’t want to discuss them.  These are powerful words written by Paul to emphasize God’s great love and special favor towards those who put their trust in Him alone.  (Read Twice)  Verses 8-9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith (in Christ); and that not of yourselves (you can’t earn salvation): it is the gift of God:  Not of works (our works can’t save us), lest any man should boast (taking pride in thinking they are achieving salvation).”  Paul is firm that absolutely nothing is of our own doing – not salvation, not grace – everything is the gift of God.  It is a gift to be thankfully accepted.  When you receive a gift at Christmas or on your birthday – you don’t offer to pay back or contribute towards that thoughtful gift – you simply receive and accept the gift with gratitude.  It would be offensive and insulting to the giver of the gift for you to try and pay for it.  In that respect – we can’t take credit for our salvation.   It is not a reward for the good things we have done.  People find it difficult to accept something so free – so willingly given – so available to anyone.  We want to feel as though we did something – that we somehow earned our salvation by our merit.  We think or – are told by false teachers – that there has to be a certain amount of law keeping, ordinance keeping, covenant keeping – in order for us to receive salvation.  But Paul’s words are unmistakable – if salvation is by God’s grace and is accepted through faith – then it is not a reward.  If salvation could be earned by good works, then by nature we would be boastful or prideful.  The fact is – no one could ever be good enough to please a holy God.  If righteousness was something men ear

Romans 1-3 – Come Follow Me

https://talkingtomormons.com/podcast-player/4434/romans-1-3-come-follow.mp3

We will now begin to study the epistles in the New Testament.  The manual introduces them by saying, “The Bible epistles are letters written by Church leaders to Saints in various parts of the world.  The Apostle Paul wrote most of the epistles in the New Testament – starting with Romans and ending with Hebrews.  His epistles are organized by length.  Although Romans is the first epistle in the New Testament, it was actually written near the end of Pau’s missionary journeys.” 

Paul boldly declares his testimony by saying in Romans 1:16-17 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”   

Paul teaches us that everyone has received a knowledge of God.  Romans 1:19-20 “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” 

ChrisFrom the very first chapter in the Old Testament, we are taught that women – like men – were created in God’s own image.  Men and women are created equal.  And from that point forward, women played prominent roles in may key biblical narratives.  As we study the Bible, we see at every turn – in the story of God’s people – that the gifts of women are necessary and vital.  God elevates the status of womanhood throughout the biblical record.But, now let’s consider the women in the Book of Mormon.  The Book of Mormon has over 500 pages, covering a span of 1021 years of Nephite and Lamanite history.  Plus, another 2,000 years of Jaredite history.  Considering all that time and history – how many women in the Book of Mormon are actually mentioned by name?AvaTotal?!  Six. ChrisOnly six.  It was very, noticeable to me when I read the Book of Mormon – the lack of personal names for women.   AvaAnd three of those women mentioned by name are taken directly from the Bible: Sarah – wife of Abraham; Eve – wife of Adam; and Mary – mother of Jesus.  ChrisSo, who are the remaining three women originating from the Book of Mormon?  AvaThere’s Sariah – wife of Lehi; Abish – a Lamanite convert; and Isabel – the harlot.  There’s almost complete silence on women in the Book of Mormon.  They play basically, unimportant roles.  There are references to other females such as “wife,” “mothers,” “daughters,” “sisters,” “queen,” “her,“ “she” –  but none of them have proper names.  While Nephi never mentions his wife’s name once, he uses his own name numerous times in the first two books of the Book of Mormon.  In fact, we find the phrase “I, Nephi” eighty-six times.  Unlike the Bible – there is virtually nothing mentioned about family life, children, romantic love, marriage ceremonies, or divorce.  It seems that in the Book of Mormon, women were primarily accessories to men – dependent upon them, not only for survival – but also for identity.All of this is strong evidence that the Book of Mormon was written by one man – who wasn’t interested in the matters or needs of women.  ChrisYou’re right.  If the Book of Mormon really was a collection of histories passed down from one writer to the next over thousands of years – like the Bible – there would have been numerous women named in the record.  But, there are not.  The god of the Book of Mormon does not appear to be the God of the Bible.  Which is yet another proof that the Book of Mormon was a fabrication of one man’s misogynistic imagination. 

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Romans 1-3 – Come Follow Me

https://talkingtomormons.com/podcast-player/4434/romans-1-3-come-follow.mp3

We will now begin to study the epistles in the New Testament.  The manual introduces them by saying, “The Bible epistles are letters written by Church leaders to Saints in various parts of the world.  The Apostle Paul wrote most of the epistles in the New Testament – starting with Romans and ending with Hebrews.  His epistles are organized by length.  Although Romans is the first epistle in the New Testament, it was actually written near the end of Pau’s missionary journeys.” 

Paul boldly declares his testimony by saying in Romans 1:16-17 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”   

Paul teaches us that everyone has received a knowledge of God.  Romans 1:19-20 “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” 

Here beginning in Chapter three, Paul is continuing to speak about the unity of the believers of God.  He will refer especially to the great “mystery” that was revealed in that dispensation.  Paul’s words are so beautifully and eloquently written.  Chapter 3:1-4 “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles.  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery (that both Jews and Gentiles are brought together in one body in Christ); (as I wrote afore in few words, Where by when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ).”  Verses 5-7  “Which in other ages (ages past) was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit (none of the Old Testament prophets knew the meaning of this mystery, until it was revealed to Paul and the other apostles);  That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:  Whereof I was made a minister (by God Himself), according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power (which caused the gospel to work effectively in me).”  

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Verses 8-11 “Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints (the least deserving Christian there is), is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ (the infinite blessings of Christ).  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places (Angels and the entire realm of spiritual beings) might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,  According to the eternal purpose which he (the Father) proposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:”  Verses 16-21 “That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man (the Holy Spirit will energize the committed believer);  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded (solidly based) in love,  May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth (width), and length (extending into the eternities), and depth (His deep love), and height (suggests the vastness and completeness of His love);  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge (exceeds our ability to understand), that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.  Now unto him (the Father) that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power (of God) that worketh in us, Unto him (the Father) be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.  Amen.” Chapter 4 is very important in Mormonism because it contains – what the LDS believe – is strong Biblical evidence that there is one true (brick and mortar) church – one true organization.  Paul writes, Verse 4 “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;”   The LDS believe theirs is the one true church – and that they are the only ones who have the one Spirit – they call the gift of the Holy Ghost.  Verse 5 “One Lord, one faith, one baptism,” Mormonism claims that the LDS Church is the “one faith” and that all other churches are corrupt.  At least that’s what Joseph Smith claims he learned in the First Vision.  Yet there are 83 different church groups which point to Joseph Smith as their founder.  Each group charges that the other groups are improperly structured or completely apostate.  However, what Paul is talking about here is that – the body of Christ is composed of all true believers who are sealed His by the one Spirit.  They h