In the latest episode of Radical Reformers, Andrew Laird welcomes Nick Kimber, Director of Public Service Reform in Cabinet Office and the lead for the Test, Learn and Grow (TLG) Programme.

We all know the huge pressures public services currently face - and in this conversation we’re reminded that fast experimentation and learning can be more powerful than writing the perfect business plan.

Nick and Andrew also discuss:

- What the TLG programme is - and isn’t (spoiler it's not a digital change programme!)

- How starting small and testing in the real world can build evidence and confidence through iterative learning rather than long, linear, pre-determined pilots.

- The importance of working across departmental and organisational boundaries at all levels to close the gap between policy intent and achieving real change.

They finish with a call to action. The TLG programme, the Changing Futures programme, the place-based budget pilots will only have succeeded if they are catalysts for a broader and sustainable movement

If you’re trying to deliver change in complex systems, this episode is one for you.