The 21st Century Creative

Welcome to Episode 10 of the Creative Disruption season of The 21st Century Creative, where we are hearing stories of creatives around the world who came up with a creative response to the challenges of the pandemic.

It’s been my most ambitious season yet, with creatives from 5 continents and probably the closest I’ll ever get to releasing a concept album, because all the interviews have had a common thread – how creators around the world were disrupted by the Covid-19 pandemic.

And each interview tells the story of how one creative, or team of creatives, rose to the challenge by doing something new and different, that opened up new possibilities for their future.

I focused on the arts and creative industries that experienced some of the biggest disruption, such as theatre, music, art, film and TV production.

I also had stories from some creative fields that didn’t necessarily get so much media coverage, but which were also severely affected, such as personal development, experiential marketing, street photography and tattoo art.

And one thread that runs through every single interview this season, is the extraordinary, creativity, courage and resilience shown by my guests, in creating new types of artwork, new products, new services and even entirely new companies, in the face of a global crisis.

And finally, today, I am going to close the loop by sharing my own story of my journey through the pandemic.

So there’s a bit of a different format for this episode, in the first part, I’m going to tell the story of my pandemic, and how it affected our company, The 21st Century Creative. I’ll talk about the challenges I faced, the discoveries I made and the lessons I’ve learned.

Then in the second part, Joanna Penn, who you have previously met as a guest on The 21st Century Creative, has kindly interviewed me about the inspiration behind my poetry podcast, A Mouthful of Air, and how I conceived, funded, launched and produced it against the backdrop of the pandemic.

After 6 seasons of The 21st Century Creative, it’s quite possible that you already have a pretty good idea of who I am. But on this show, I’m mostly talking in my role as a coach for creatives, so you may not be as familiar with my poetry.

It’s also possible that this is the first episode of The 21st Century Creative you’ve come across, in which case an introduction is definitely in order.

So my name is Mark McGuinness and I’m an award-winning poet from the West Country of England, which Anglo-Saxon historians and Thomas Hardy fans know as Wessex. I currently live in Bristol, which is the big city compared to where I grew up, in rural Devon.

My mother is from Devon and my father is Scottish and his family goes back to Ireland, so there’s a mixture of Saxon and Celt in my ancestry and my cultural inheritance.

I’m also the host of A Mouthful of Air, which was recently selected as one of the 9 Best Podcasts for Poetry Lovers, by Podcast Review, published by The Los Angeles Review of Books.

The photos on this page are of ‘Elegy for Moss’, a concrete poem I co-created with the artist and sculptor Sheena Devitt, and exhibited at The Lettering Arts Trust; I tell the story of this collaboration in the first part of today’s episode.

Outside of poetry, I’ve spent the last 25 years as a coach for creatives, which led to me writing several books for creatives, contributing to two international best sellers published by 99U, and hosting this podcast, The 21st Century Creative, since 2017.

To introduce my interviewer, Joanna Penn is an award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author. She writes thrillers and also books on the writer’s life and the business of being a writer. And altogether she has sold over half a million books in 162 countries and 5 languages.

She’s also a friend of mine and also a friend of The 21st Century Creative, she’s been a guest on the podcast several times, talking about mindset and health and productivity and audio for creatives.

She has a very popular and inspiring and useful podcast, The Creative Penn, which is all about writing and self-publishing and book marketing, and creative business. It’s my go-to podcast to learn about book publishing and marketing, and that’s true of many, many writers around the world.

So as you might expect, Jo is a great interviewer, and she did a great job of getting the story out of me in this interview. She is my friend, but she didn’t let me off lightly, she does challenge me in the interview as well!

So here we go for the final interview of the Creative Disruption season: Mark McGuinness interviewed by Joanna Penn.

JOANNA:Today we’re focusing on your poetry, which is exciting, but I wanted to start by asking about the integration. You’ve been running a successful creative business for many years.

What part does poetry play in your life in terms of creativity, and does it play any part in the business side?

MARK: For me personally, poetry is the bedrock. It’s the foundation of who I am in everything that I do. In terms of writing, it’s the most fulfilling kind of writing that I read and also to write. There’s nothing else that comes close really. All my writing about creativity, my work as a coach, they’re really side effects of the poetry. And that’s not to diminish them because I absolutely love doing them and I love the fact that I get to do lots of different things, a bit like you. But really, poetry is at the center of my universe .

If there was no poetry, there wouldn’t really be much point to the rest of it. So, they really go hand in hand in that way. Creatively though, I think of poetry as completely separate from everything else I do. I love the fact that it’s a different world and I can do what the hell I like there. There are no commercial considerations, there’s no money at stake. I don’t think that’s any great secret about the poetry world. So, I have a lot more freedom than a writer who has to keep an eye on the market, their business is maybe based on selling a certain volume or something like a movie studio where there’s a committee making decisions in a very risk-averse basis. With poetry, I can basically do what I want.

I think the only thing I would say about the poetry and the business, having a relationship, is that it does inform the kind of coach that I am. Because I’m a poet, I’ve got a very strong affinity with creatives of all kinds. That’s who I like to work with, that’s my tribe. On the other hand, I hear from a lot of my clients who say, well, the fact that I’m a poet was attractive to them when they were looking for a coach. They knew they weren’t going to get the usual corporate-style coaching or even necessarily mainstream life coaching. I’ve never thought of myself in those terms. They like the idea of working with a fellow creative because they know we’ll have certain values in common.

JOANNA: It’s so interesting. You said at the beginning there that, ‘Poetry is at the foundation of who I am,’ which is pretty hardcore.

I’ve read all your non-fiction. I knew you before you knew who I was back in the day, over a decade ago, because you were I think about five years ahead of me and I bought one of your courses early on. I’ve read pretty much all your stuff. You do share a lot of personal stuff in your non-fiction books, in your blog, in your podcast.

And yet, you’re basically saying that your poetry is the far more personal side, the more fulfilling side. So, to me, this is really difficult and I think about writing a memoir and something I’m kind of struggling with.

Do you think that your poetry is your more vulnerable side? Are you more vulnerable to criticism? And you’ve written a book on criticism. How do we find the strength to tap into these more personal sides of writing and put ourselves out there in this very vulnerable way?

MARK: Why do you think I wrote a book on criticism?! I don’t know. It was partly me and partly what I was hearing from clients and readers. But yeah, in terms of vulnerability, absolutely. I do write some poems with personal subject matter, but I’m not what’s called a confessional poet, you’re not going to get all my dirty secrets. But even when I’m writing something that’s ostensibly about another subject, of course, in the world of poetry, everything’s metaphorical. So, it’s always personal on that level.

I remember when I started doing poetry readings, I had already come quite a long way out of my introverted shell. I’d forced and trained and cajoled and got myself coached to do a lot of public speaking, for instance, as a psychotherapist and then, later on, as a coach. I was really proud of the fact that I’d overcome my fears to the point where I could speak at an international conference.

I even ended up teaching presentation skills, I had a whole course around this. And, so, I remember thinking, ‘Okay, I’ve got this,’ when I was asked to start giving poetry readings. And I was actually quite annoyed to discover that there was this whole new level of fear involved in reading my poems to an audience. It was like there were several more layers stripped off me and I was really exposed on a personal emotional level in a way that didn’t happen with normal public speaking.

So, in terms of how we deal with it, well, my way of getting over it, as usual, is to find the best teacher or coach that I could find and persuade them to let me work with them. I went up to the Orkney Islands off the north of Scotland and I worked with Kristin Linklater who sadly, she’s no longer with us, but she was a legend in acting and voice teaching circles. She had a specialism in speaking Shakespearean verse and helping actors on the stage to do the iambic pentameter with the big soliloquies and so on with feeling.

And, so, I said, ‘I’m a poet. Can I come on the course?’ and she said, ‘Yes, you’re allowed. You can bring your own poetry.’ In total, I spent two weeks up there, two separate occasions. And the first week was the foundation and the second week I got to do the Shakespeare course. And she really put me through the ringer. There’s a story I tell on A Mouthful of Air about the day that she lost patience with me because I wasn’t projecting enough. We all had to read a sonnet, a Shakespearean sonnet, as part of our training. And she kept saying, ‘Mark, we’re over here. You need to reach us.’ And, eventually, she said, ‘Look, this isn’t working.’ And she opened the door and she said, ‘Right, let’s all go outside.’

We go outside on this hillside, like a small mountain on this island in the middle of the North Sea, and she says, ‘Mark, you are going to the top of the hill and we are going to the bottom of the hill. And you are going to speak your poem in such a way that we hear it and we feel it at the bottom.’ And, of course, I was absolutely terrified. But if Kristin told you what to do, you did it. I staggered about at the top of the hill, feeling completely ridiculous. And in the end, there was a part of me that just let go, and this big voice came out and, suddenly, I was booming it out all the way across the sea and over to the other island. And the way I thought, it was a bit like a Shakespearean version of The Sound of Music.

I went down the bottom of the hill after that, and there were one or two people who actually there were tears in their eyes. So, it had connected. And after that, I really don’t care as much. I found myself in readings where I realized I’m the loudest poet in the room. Because something Kristin did, it just unlocked the voice and it wants to come out .

JOANNA: That’s so interesting. And that’s definitely a good tip for people because I’ve had plenty of professional speaking training and I can, same as you, speak on big stages. There’s always a little bit of nerves but it’s fine. And yet, I still haven’t read my fiction work in front of a group. I will always resist that because it’s so much more personal, it’s so much more scary. And it’s almost like that experience helped you break through that. So a tip for people listening, don’t just go on a a public speaking course, you actually need to do something that is with work that means something. I think that’s super useful.

I do want to come back, you said you’re not a confessional poet. A lot of people might not realize that there’s such a breadth.

If people are not in the poetry community or have only read some poetry or maybe studied some at school, what are the different types of poets out there?

MARK: It’s a broad church. The confessional poets started in the ’60s with people like Robert Lowell and Sylvia Plath who were basically putting out their family history, stuff that wouldn’t have normally got talked about, personal history, particularly with them around mental health. It’s all about ‘bearing my soul and just letting everything out’ kind of thing. Some poets will still do that now but others like to take maybe a more oblique approach. So, that’s one school.

Another way you might classify a poet is by the style of the writing. Personally, I write in quite a lot of traditional forms. I wouldn’t call myself this but some people would label that ‘formalist poetry.’ It sounds a little bit like formal dress though to me. I don’t think any writer particularly likes to say, ‘I’m this kind of writer,’ because we all like to think we’re unique and special, don’t we?

JOANNA: But you use particular structures.

MARK: I do. I do all the Shakespearean sonnet and the iambic pentameter. And I love all the old forms, like the medieval ones, the renaissance ones. They’re magical structures, there’s almost like an incantatory quality to them. I think it’s a shame that we’re in danger of losing that as part of the mainstream of poetry. I think, recent years, it’s coming back, it comes back in waves, so to speak. But certainly, that’s my default form of writing. Whereas I think a lot of poets, their default these days would be to write in free verse.

So, it doesn’t have meter, it doesn’t necessarily have rhyme, although it can do. It wouldn’t have more of a set structure but, of course, its own kind of discipline. T. S. Eliot famously said that there’s not really any such thing as free verse because there are always constraints in art. But if anybody’s listening and you’re not plugged into the contemporary poetry scene, just because you read one type of poem and you think, ‘Oh, I’m not sure I like that,’ there’s an awful lot to choose from just like fiction. Don’t let any one experience put you off.

JOANNA: Yes, I think that’s really important. I’ve written a pantoum and other forms like this, and the boundaries can actually help us be more creative. Some people might have tried a haiku, which looks simple but it’s not. I guess ‘basic’ is one word for it, but you have to think about so many things and you have fewer words than you do for a book. So, it’s a very different art, which is interesting.

Let’s talk about the poetry podcast, A Mouthful of Air. You’ve got this successful show, The 21st Century Creative, which is very tied into your business side. I’ve been on it, you’ve had some really big-name people on, it’s a great show, highly recommend it to people. And we both know how hard it is to do a podcast.

Why launch a poetry podcast, and what is it that the spoken word brings for this?

MARK: It really began very simply with just the urge to share some poems. I was looking at my bookshelves, which, if we were doing this on video, you would be able to see, there’s shelves and shelves of poetry behind me. And I started to think, ‘It’s a shame if the circle stops with me, it’s just me who reads and enjoys,’ because I’ve got so many hours of pleasure and sustenance from those. Most people don’t read poetry. And I got to thinking, ‘Surely, it can’t be that hard to invite them in and take a book down from the shelf and read it and say, ‘Look, isn’t this great?’ and show them what I love about those poems?’

And, so, that’s a lot of, obviously, famous poets of the past, but also I know quite a few contemporary poets who write the most amazing things. I used to go to classes at the Poetry School in London and the City Lit and, apart from anything, I was learning. Everyone would read a poem and we would critique it. I would just think it was the most fabulous evening of entertainment. I would be getting a live performance from about six poets one evening and it would be really really high-quality and really varied, picking up on what you were saying. So, I just thought that this should be more widely known. Wouldn’t it be great to put these poems on a podcast so that other people can enjoy the way I do?

The more I thought about this, the idea of a poetry podcast, the more I kept going back to the idea that poetry, at its roots, really is an oral art. It’s older than writing. It would be the tribe around the campfire listening to the voice of the poet, or the shaman, or the bard, or whatever they were called, and they would be telling stories in song, in verse, in maybe a mixture of the two, and there would be epic tales. There would be tales about the gods and heroes and the creation of the world and love and betrayal and so on. That was really how we made sense of our world. A lot of the time the poet would be the memory database of the tribe in terms of history, and mythology, and religion, and then sometimes even stuff like botany, and the medicine, and whatever.

And modern poetry, we don’t look to the poet for an understanding of life, the universe, and everything these days in the way that maybe we did once upon a time but poetry is still there as an oral art, and reading a poem, listening to a poem spoken. One of the other things I’ve discovered about podcasts, and I know you’ve seen this too, it’s a really privileged medium because people tend to listen to podcasts in the quiet time of their day, in their me time when they’re cleaning up, when they’re commuting, when they’re going for a walk.

It struck me that this is a chance to have the poet’s voice in your ear, in that quiet time of the day, and it’s not going to give you the whole cosmology and meaning of the universe but Robert Frost put it beautifully when he said, ‘A poem can give you a momentary stay against confusion.’ A moment of clarity, of…not quite certainty or reassurance but maybe of being earthed or connected to something that feels true, that feels real and authentic.

That’s the potential of a podcast is really simply to have the poet’s voice in your ear doing that and maybe helping you make a bit more sense of your world.

JOANNA: I think now there are a lot of performance poets as well and even you could say into the rap movement, and song lyrics. People know these by heart, the songs by heart because they are essentially poetry, and a lot of them rhyme.

I know not all poetry has to rhyme, but rhyming poetry in song is a way that it was the message was carried, wasn’t it, as well?

MARK: Absolutely. I think of poetry in some ways very much like music. And I would say to anybody who doesn’t feel confident as a poetry reader, think about it like this. So, for instance, I can’t read music, I can’t play an instrument, I can’t sing in tune but I have strong opinions and tastes in music. I have a brother who is a musician and was a professional musician and he can explain all the technical stuff and his knowledge of music is much deeper than I am, but sometimes if we have a discussion about music, I’ll say, ‘Yeah, but I just don’t like it. I like this instead.’

I think I would really encourage you, if you try the podcast, to use it as a way of starting to develop your own taste in poetry. It’s not an academic discipline, they try to turn it into one but that’s not what it is. The way I do this on the podcast is I throw you in at the deep end but then I also throw you a life jacket.

JOANNA: What do you mean by that?

MARK: The way this works is, you hear the opening music but then the next thing after that you will hear is the poet reading a poem. If it’s a living poet, I get them to come and read it. If it’s a dead poet, I’ll read it on their behalf. But so often we feel, ‘Oh, you need to have it explained to you first and get the CliffsNotes into the footnotes,’ and whatever. No, you don’t. If it’s a good poem, it doesn’t need an introduction and it should have an effect, even if you don’t grasp the whole meaning of it all at once. And treat it like music. Does it make you feel something? Does it create images in your mind or emotions? Do you feel it in your gut?

That’s throwing you in the deep end. You just hear the poem, whatever it is. But then the life jacket I’m going to throw you is you’ll get a bit of context about the poems straight after it. If it’s a classic poem, then you’ll hear me effusing about the poem and talking about the background and what we know about the poet. And also some technical stuff about, ‘Look what they’re doing here. Look how this is made, how it works.’ And you will get the technical stuff, but again, it’s not academic.

I’m going to show you how a poet…and the old word for a poet is…well, in Greek, ‘poet’ means maker. So, this is really a craft, practical ‘how’s this put together?’ approach. If it’s a living poet who’s on the show, then I will interview them for about 10, 20, 25 minutes about the poem, where it came from, that’s usually the question I start with, and then how it evolved in the writing process. So, you’ve got the poem, you’ve got your initial response to it, your own experience of it, and then you get a bit of perspective or background about it that maybe helps to shed some light on aspects that weren’t immediately apparent.

And then, at the end of the show, this is my favorite bit, we play the same recording of the poem again. And even though it’s the same recording of the same poem, people tell me, ‘It sounds different the second time round,’ because, of course, they’ve got that bit of context and there’re some things that they’re listening out for that they’re going to notice because we’ve highlighted them in the interview or the commentary. So, that’s the deep end and life jacket approach to poetry.

JOANNA: I think that’s so interesting. I love that you’re delving deeper into the craft side. And your enthusiasm for poetry, I think, is infectious. So, basically, if listeners don’t know anything about poetry, they’ll get something out of it.

And then, as with poems, if they already know things, they’re going to get a deeper level of meaning in these poems.

MARK: That’s right. I’ve got two ideal listeners in mind. One is a poetry geek like me who lives and breathes this stuff and wants to experience it in a different way. And then the other is the person who’s cultured, reads a lot, but reads probably anything but poetry, and giving them a way into it. The other things I try and do, particularly around the questions with the poets, is if you ever read a poem and your first response is, ‘What? Hang on a minute, I don’t get it,’ or, ‘Does it mean…?’ whatever, I try and ask all of those questions to the poet.

So, if you’ve ever had that response to a poem, then tune in to A Mouthful of Air and you’re going to hear me grilling the poet and saying, ‘Come on, what are we supposed to get from this?’ or, ‘Am I being dumb?’ or whatever. So, it’s just opening it up and not being so precious about it.

JOANNA: Not being precious about poetry is actually really important I think. We all get so het up, so serious about all this stuff I think probably because so many of us did it at school.

I did poetry at school and it was very serious and very important.

MARK: That’s right. I got a lovely email from a reader the other day who said, ‘I used to run screaming from poetry but now you’ve opened the door and you’ve shown me it can relate to me.’ I think a nice example of this is I have my longtime teacher and mentor, Mimi Khalvati, a really wonderful poet, and she’s just published a lovely book of Petrarchan sonnets called Afterwardness. And, of course, when you hear the word ‘Petrarchan sonnet,’ you think, ‘my goodness me, that’s going to be elevated and on a pedestal and a bit remote,’ but the poem that she read is called ‘Eggs.’

When I asked, ‘From where did you get the inspiration for it?’ she said, ‘Well, I ordered a fried egg in my local cafe.’ And it’s about an egg. She’s got this wonderful theory about how eggs are like Petrarchan sonnets. You’ll have to listen to the episode to untangle that. But, hopefully, that gives an idea of the down-to-earth aspect of it, even with something as revered as such an old verse form.

JOANNA: The other thing I think is really interesting is intellectual property. I think this is super important to talk about because you mentioned living poets and dead poets.

In terms of the intellectual property of being able to read a poem in audio format…because this is one of the issues. A lot of people want to quote poetry in their work or song lyrics, and you can’t usually because they’re so short, it can’t possibly come under fair use.

How are you dealing with the intellectual property side of the show?

MARK: I am doing my best to be scrupulous about it. What that means is old poets does mean old poets, so it’s stuff that’s out of copyright. Shakespeare’s not going to sue me for using his sonnet. Chaucer is probably not going to get too annoyed if I do a bit of one of his poems.

For the contemporary poets, I’m checking with each poet, who is the license holder or who needs to sign off? Often it’s the publisher. And we’re getting the publisher to sign off and say, ‘Yes, we’re happy.’ I’m pleased to say that publishers are happy to do that because, obviously, with each poet, we’re showcasing a poem, typically from their latest book and encouraging listeners, ‘Well, if you like this one, then go and buy the book.’ So, yes, absolutely, you’ve gotta be super careful.

It’s the same with song lyrics. It’s so easy to think, ‘Well, I’ll just put a couple of lines in my story because the characters are in a bar and that’s the song that’s playing and it related to them,’ but no, you really can’t do that.

JOANNA: You have to be super careful, that’s why I wanted to mention it.

Let’s talk about the interesting poetry publishing side. Because yes, poems are great when they’re performed by voice but they’re also, a lot of them, in books, I have a lot of poetry books too, they’re designed in print to look a certain way on the page. I feel like a lot of people set them out in certain ways, or some people format things, say, without capital letters or they have things running onto different lines that you would’ve put just in a sentence if it was prose.

Talk about what are the options with publishing. Why is print so important for poetry, and what are the options for poets in terms of the different publication routes, and what are you doing?

MARK: Actually, print isn’t necessarily important for all poets. I mean Homer may or may not have written it down himself…

JOANNA: He is dead!

MARK: …or herself. It started off as an oral medium and, to this day, as you said, there are performance poets who say the real thing is the live experience with the audience. And the book is like a souvenir to them, and they say, ‘It’s not the real thing,’ say, ‘Don’t judge me by the book, judge me by the show.’ So, it’s a wonderful kind of hybrid.

I think it is an amphibious form, it can live in the water or on the land. And talking to poets sometimes, you can see that the way it’s laid out on the page may or may not have a really strong relationship to the way they read it out loud. But in terms of publishing options, the poetry world is very conservative, folks. It’s made me think of the fiction world about 10 or 20 years ago. There are indie poets, there is an indie poet scene, but that’s not the route I have taken.

I know this has raised eyebrows in a few quarters because all my non-fiction I do publish independently because I like to be in control of it and do it my way. But I’m going the traditional route for the actual publication of the poems, but I’m also having my cake and eating it by having a podcast where I get my direct relationship with the audience.

One big reason for going the traditional route is it’s a very practical one, and that is that I want to reach the readers who love poetry the most. And right now, as a general rule, those people are far more likely to read poetry that is presented via a publisher. If I decided to self-publish my poems, which I could do, I know how to do it technically, I would be missing out on that core poetry readership. And I don’t want to do that. I do want to reach a wider audience as well but I also want to reach the real enthusiasts.

We can argue about whether that’s fair, or that’s the way the poetry world should be but I think sometimes, as authors and creators, we need to deal with the world the way it is rather than the way we think it should be. For instance, if you’re writing genre fiction and romance or science fiction or thrillers and you say, ‘Well, I don’t like e-books. To me, a real book is a print book so I’m only going to publish in print,’ you’re going to miss out on a lot of the hardcore readers of that genre. So, one big reason is just that practical access to the readership that I want.

Another reason is more of an artistic one. Which is one big misconception about poetry is we often think it’s a solitary art, that it’s all about the individual poet channeling their visions and expressing their unique talent. And, obviously, there is some truth to that but, if you read a lot of poetry, after a while, you realize it’s more like a massive group writing project that’s happening across space and time and even between languages .

If you read any significant poet, you’re going to find ideas and allusions and references and poetic forms that have come from other poets and, quite often, translations or rewritings or answering back to other poets’ work. To me, writing poetry means being a part of that conversation with other poets. Where you’re reading each other’s work and responding to it and discussing it and so on, as well as the ghosts of the past. Right now, if you want to be part of that conversation, then it’s much harder to do that as a self-published author. It’s very much expected you’ll have a publisher and that will be your entry into that world. So, that’s the route I’m going. Those are the main reasons.

There’s other things like print quality. The average poetry book is typically 60, 70, 80 pages and you try getting Kindle Print to align the spine properly on a book that that’s thin, the title on the spine. Also, a lot of the poetry publishers really do go to town in terms of print quality and font and paperweight and presentation, so, there’s the experience of reading the book and holding it in a way that it’s a beautiful object to contemplate. So, all of those combine together. At the moment, traditional publishing is the main game, I’m afraid.

JOANNA: I’m still going to challenge you on it because there are plenty of people, for example, who will work with a printer to do a beautiful print object, which is the same printer as the poetry publisher might use. And there are lots of ways to reach people in different mediums and ways to get a poetry audience to buy that book.

I want to go back to what you said at the beginning about your poetry being the foundation of who you are and ask whether it’s really about validation and acceptance of peers and the deeper side of being a creator and a poet. You’re an award-winning poet. Awards, I feel, are part of validation. And I also feel that a publisher that is known for great poetry is validation for your art.

Forget all the marketing and print quality, is it really about validation?

MARK: From the ego’s perspective, yes, of course.

JOANNA: But that’s important.

MARK: Yes, sure. We all have an ego, and that’s part of it. I have gone back and forward and thought about this and partly it is that I love the poetry world.

It’s easy to think of gatekeepers as being the big bad enemy, etc., but the poetry world, it’s not like there’s a lot of money at stake. Nobody is in this for the money, they’re all enthusiasts. I’ve grown up with this world, I’ve been growing up reading certain publishers and enjoying their output and the style of work that they put out there, and I wanted to be part of that world and play that game. The idea of going and printing my own books and supervising a printer and storing all of that, it just doesn’t excite me.

JOANNA: And, obviously, I’m challenging you, and I feel the same way. I feel like you’re an indie author for your non-fiction, we have our money-making books and then we have our books that are art and our books of our hearts. For example, I still want to win an award for my fiction. I don’t know whether I want traditional publishing, but I probably still do, I still think that’s part of the validation of the industry. So, I think it’s important for people listening to separate the business side and the money-making side from the art sometimes.

It doesn’t have to be both, does it, all the time?

MARK: There’s always something that you can get attached to. If you’re writing a more commercial field, you can get attached to the money, or a field that has got a wider audience, you could get attached to fame. Poetry, yes, of course, it’s very easy to get attached to the whole professional reputation and peer review and how you’re seen within that community. But whatever field that you’re in, there’s going to be some temptation for the ego.

One thing I say to my clients, because I get all kinds of different versions of this from different clients. I get some artist clients who will come in and say, ‘I don’t know if I want to play the gallery game and have my work represented in high-end galleries and introduced to people in a certain way or if I’d rather just go direct and sell it and have an online presence.’

What I say to clients is, ‘Play the game you want to play. Because whatever you do, there’s going to be an upside and there’s going to be a downside.’ And it’s all a game. But you’ve got to think about the game that really appeals to you that you think, ‘You know what? I would enjoy playing that,’ as well as, ‘I think I have a reasonable chance of competing.’

JOANNA: And you can play a different game for different projects.

MARK: Yes, absolutely.

JOANNA: Exactly. We’re so lucky to have the choice now. There used to be only one game and now there’s lots of games. I don’t think you can play the same game with the same book, that’s important.

MARK: No, you can’t. And also, even within the same world, so like I said, I’m having my cake and eating it. I’m going the traditional route for the actual publication, and that’s got its own rewards and frustrations, it moves very slowly, for instance, but then, having the podcast as a direct, like I said, visceral medium where I’ve got my own platform, my own voice in the world.

Weirdly enough, there’s a stigma against self-publishing poetry, but people quite admire the fact that you can make a podcast. So, that’s a weird loophole in the poetry world, which I’m quite happy about. I do think, if you’re going to think about this maybe from a slightly more strategic perspective, just think about if you want to do well at whatever game it is you choose, then you just think, ‘What are the rules? What are the parameters? And what are the things that maybe not so many people are doing, and could that give me a little bit of an edge or a little bit more fulfillment and satisfaction in how I approach it?’

JOANNA: Absolutely. And, of course, both of us use podcasting to both serve our community and also as a vehicle for our businesses in terms of your 21st Century Creative, and this podcast, The Creative Penn. And now we both have podcasts, I have my Books and Travel Podcast and you have A Mouthful of Air, which are more passion projects.

It does take a lot of work and it costs money to produce. You have very high-value production, I don’t spend as much on high-value production as you do. But, if people are thinking, ‘Oh, is podcasting really worth it?’ You talk there about some of the recognition you can get in a community.

Can podcasting pay for itself financially, or is it worth it for the reputation and the other ways you can get a return?

MARK: Firstly, it’s absolutely worth it for the pure joy of doing it. Any time that I spend writing or recording this show, including recording my own episodes or interviewing poets, it’s a delight and the time just disappears.

I work on it in the mornings, typically, and it’s lunchtime before I know it. Another really cool motivation is just connecting with listeners. When I get a response, like the person who said, ‘I used to run screaming from poetry and now you’ve opened the door,’ or if I talk to a poet and they have a good experience and they felt that they’ve been able to put themselves out there into the world, that is, absolutely the core of what makes it worth doing. And if that’s not there, if you’re only doing it because you think, ‘I need to do something to build my reputation or generate income or sales or whatever,’ then find another way of doing it.

In terms of time and money, yeah, you’re right, Jo, I am a perfectionist about audio particularly. I always want to have high production values and music and I like having the atmospheric soundscapes that Javier Weyler creates for both of my shows. And it’s not cheap to do this. So, again, just for anybody listening, you don’t necessarily have to be as perfectionistic as this, there are lower-budget ways of doing a perfectly good show. In terms of what I wanted to achieve, my first show, The 21st Century Creative, pays for itself via coaching clients, and I’ve also recently added a Patreon membership.

But for the new show, A Mouthful of Air, it’s an art project and I can’t really see a lot of commercial potential. I don’t really have that commercial interest in it. But I didn’t want to compromise on the production quality. So, I did something I’ve never done before, and that’s to apply for public funding from Arts Council England. I thought there is value for other people here, it’s really a public art project. I’m going to be sharing poems and connecting poets with listeners. So, if I do it well, there’s going to be a benefit to the listeners, there’s going to be a benefit to the poets, and there’s a benefit to their publishers. I really want this to be my contribution to the poetry world.

I made this argument to the Arts Council. I filled out the longest application form I have ever done in my life. And I’m very pleased to say they responded and they gave me the full amount of the funding. So, thank you very much to Arts Council England for stepping up and doing that. Sometimes I hear from creatives who say, ‘I’d just like to be funded to make my art,’ that hasn’t been my experience of how the funding world works. You’ve always got to sell your ideas. I had to really think hard and make my case and say, ‘This is how it will help me develop as an artist but also this is what’s in it for the audience, this is what’s in it for the public, this is what’s in it for the poets and their publishers, and so on.’

Whatever you’re doing, if you want to do it at a high level and you get it out into the world, and even if you’re giving it away for free, like a podcast, you’ve still got to sell it. You’ve got to sell the idea to advertisers or patrons or clients or sponsors or a funding body. And then you’ve got to go out there and sell it to people who have got the listeners, who’ve got an infinite choice of other podcasts that they could be listening to.

JOANNA: I actually really love that you’ve done that because, again, in the same way that you talked about the different kinds of publishing, it’s not either/or.

It’s the same, you have a coaching business, you’re an indie. You sell online courses, you have done anyway in the past, and now you’re applying for a grant. I think it’s the same. You don’t have to just do one thing, it doesn’t have to be all grants or all indie or all coaching. I think that’s what I want to encourage people is to think wider than just the one thing. Obviously, we’re both full-time creative entrepreneurs so we can branch into these other things. I’ve been thinking about this a lot, actually.

As we speak today, I’ve just put out my 10-year-anniversary post, it will be in the past when this goes out, but this idea that, after a number of years, your confidence perhaps grows and your income is steady enough in other areas that you can actually branch out into things that you might have been putting off because you couldn’t afford it in other ways, and now you can.

Now’s the right time to branch into these more passion projects.

MARK: Definitely. Looking back, it was years ago I had the idea for the two shows, I wanted to do a poetry show and I wanted to do the coaching show. And I started with the coaching one partly because I was reasonably confident it would make money and, therefore, it would pay for itself and all the equipment I was buying, not to mention the training and whatever. But also because, creatively, the poetry show is more complicated and more demanding emotionally and there’s more people involved, there’s more moving parts.

I’m really glad I did the coaching show first because, although it’s longer, in terms of production, it’s simpler to do. You’re right that, again, you’ve got to think a bit strategically about, ‘Well, if I do this first, that will get me to there. And then when I get to there, then I will have more options creatively, hopefully, financially and business-wise.’

JOANNA: Brilliant.

Where can people find you and the podcasts and everything you do online?

MARK: Starting with the poetry show, which is my new baby so I want to introduce it to everybody, it is A Mouthful of Air on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and all the usual podcasting platforms. The website is amouthfulofair.fm. And, if you go to the website, you can sign up for an email subscription, even if you listen to the audio podcast via an app, and you will get a transcript of every single episode, including the text of the poems.

If you want to read the poem as well as listen to it, go to amouthfulofair.fm and sign up for the email version and you can experience the amphibious nature of poetry.

And then, on social media, we are @amouthfulofair on Twitter and Facebook. And on Instagram, I’m now an Insta poet, the poems are going up @airpoets on Instagram.

If you’re interested in the other podcast, The 21st Century Creative, that is 21st Century Creative on all the usual places. And my coaching site is lateralaction.com .

JOANNA: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Mark, that was great.

MARK: Thank you, Jo, I really enjoyed this. You took me to some unusual places for a podcast interview. So, thanks.

Each episode of The 21st Century Creative podcast features an interview with an outstanding creator in the arts or creative industries.

At the end of the interview, I ask my guest to set you a Creative Challenge that will help you put the ideas from the interview in to practice in your own work.

And in the first part of the show, I share insights and practical guidance based on my experience of coaching creatives like you since 1996.

If you’d like my help applying the ideas from the show to your own situation you are welcome to join us in the 21st Century Member’s Group.

This will give you access to Goal-setting, Accountability and Q&A videos, as well as other exclusive insights and glimpses behind the scenes of the show. Due to the pandemic, membership is currently on a pay-what-you-want basis.

Your membership fee will also support the podcast and help to make it sustainable.

Become a Patron!

Make sure you receive every episode of The 21st Century Creative by subscribing:

The post How I Created, Funded and Launched My New Podcast (while the World Was in Meltdown) appeared first on Creative Coach | Mark McGuinness | Since 1996.

• From Tattoos to NFTs with Ichi Hatano
• Creative Disruption: How 12 Creatives on 5 Continents Rose to the Challenge of the Pandemic
• Using Lockdown to Launch a Dream Project with Nicky Mondellini

Welcome to Episode 9 of the Creative Disruption season of The 21st Century Creative, where we are hearing stories of creatives around the world who came up with a creative response to the challenges of the pandemic.

This week we are off to Tokyo, to meet Ichi Hatano, a wonderful artist whose work has deep roots in the traditional arts of Japan.

When his busy tattoo studio was closed by Covid restrictions, he turned to digital art and exhibited his work at CrypTOKYO, Japan’s very first NFT art show, which attracted national press and television coverage.

In this interview Ichi tells me about his journey as an artist and the new creative and commercial opportunities he is discovering in the world of digital art.

In the first part of the show, I look back at the interviews in the CREATIVE DISRUPTION season and identify a key factor that made creative reinvention easier for some creators than others – and what you and I can learn from their example.

Ichi Hatano has worked as a tattoo artist since 1998 and also produces Suiboku-ga, a type of traditional ink wash painting.

In late 2019 just before the pandemic hit, Ichi was employing 3 more tattooists plus a full time studio manager, and they were fully booked 6 days a week, with the majority of their business coming from overseas tourists, who wanted a very special souvenir of their trip to Japan.

Then along came the pandemic, and the restrictions meant that not only was his tattoo studio closed for many months, but foreign tourists were barred from entering the country.

So Ichi’s business shrank from 6 days a week to only 1 or 2 clients a month. Which meant he had a lot of time on his hands, and he came up with 3 very different creative projects in response to his changed circumstances.

The first one was a beautiful book of his Suibokuga paintings, called Ichi Hatano’s Dragons, which he crowdfunded on Kickstarter.

The second project is an ongoing DIY renovation project at a traditional house in the Japanese countryside, which he plans to turn into a gallery.

And the third was his entry into the world of Crypto Art and NFTs.

Ichi took part in CrypTOKYO, Japan’s very first in-person NFT art show, exhibiting and selling his digital artwork alongside notable Japanese artists and international icons including Beeple, and Maxim from The Prodigy.

It’s a fascinating conversation where a centuries-old artistic tradition meets the latest trends in the 21st century creative economy.

You can learn more about Ichi’s art – including his digital art and his book at his website, IchiHatano.com and his Instagram @ichi_hatano

MARK: Ichi, how did you become an artist?

ICHI: I didn’t have any official art training. I left school at 15 because it was difficult being a group environment. I like studying by myself. I was drawing a lot, and studying art by myself.

MARK: Huh.

ICHI: Yeah.

MARK: What artist inspired you the most?

ICHI: I like Ukiyo-e artists from the late Edo period, which is the 19th century. Ukiyo-e are Japanese woodblock prints. My favorite artists are Keisai Eisen, Katsushika Hokusai, Utagawa Kuniyoshi, this kind of era artist.

MARK: I think a lot of listeners will know Hokusai’s ‘Wave off Kanagawa’.

ICHI: Yeah. Exactly.

MARK: That’s maybe a really, really famous image. But there’s an awful lot of other Ukiyo-e images and artists.

Why did you become a tattoo artist?

ICHI: It’s hard to say why you like something. If you like it, you like it!

MARK: That’s true.

ICHI: I got my first tattoo at 20 years old.

MARK: Oh, really?

ICHI: That’s when I decided I wanted to become a tattoo artist. I specialize in Japanese traditional design. Those types of designs are different from Ukiyo-e.

MARK: This is really classic Japanese art as a tattoo?

ICHI: Mm-hmm.

MARK: Is it true that tattoos are a bit controversial in Japan, that maybe some places…like if you go to an onsen bath maybe, they don’t like you to have a tattoo?

ICHI: Yes, it’s true. Tattoos are taboo in Japan! However, I think it’s getting better bit by bit. That will bring a change in attitude in the future.

MARK: Great. Well, hopefully that will be good for your business and your art if people change that attitude.

ICHI: Yeah.

MARK: If we think about late 2019, before COVID appeared, what did your work and your business look like at that time?

ICHI: Before COVID, my tattoo studio was very busy. I was working six days a week, always fully booked.

MARK: Wow.

ICHI: And the studio had three more artists and a full-time manager. And over 90% of my clients were from oversea visiting Japan.

MARK: Oh, so a lot of people were tourists?

ICHI: Yes.

MARK: Who wanted a classic Japanese tattoo?

ICHI: Exactly.

MARK: When they came to Tokyo? Okay. And they don’t worry about the taboo?

ICHI: Yeah.

MARK: How did COVID affect your work and your business as a tattooist?

ICHI: When COVID started, Japan closed the border. We had a state of emergency. At the slowest time, I only had one or two clients a month. I always like trying new things, so using free time, I did big three projects.

First, I published a book. For the first few months of COVID, I painted one hundred traditional Japanese dragons using sumi ink on washi paper. I made a book called Ichi Hatano’s Dragons. I had wanted to publish a book for a long time, and I was interested in crowdfunding, so I used Kickstarter. It was sold out immediately. It was great success. I would like to do another one in the future.

MARK: Is the book available now? Can our listeners go and buy a copy of the book?

ICHI: It’s actually sold out.

MARK: Oh, really? Gosh. It’ll be a collector’s item.

ICHI: Yeah. Kind of, yes.

MARK: Okay. Well, maybe we can link to the book so people can see, because you’ve got some very beautiful dragon images which, as you say, it’s a very traditional image in Japan. And washi paper?

ICHI: Yes, washi paper.

MARK: That’s very special, isn’t it?

ICHI: Yes. Very soft like, sometimes Western people say it’s rice paper or something.

MARK: Yes. Is that not true?

ICHI: It’s not from the rice, actually, that I use.

MARK: It’s a myth?

ICHI: Yeah. It’s a different plant. But, very soft paper.

MARK: And this is a very traditional kind of art, with the sumi ink and the washi paper, isn’t it?

ICHI: Yes.

MARK: Okay. that was your first project in COVID. Did you say there were three?

ICHI: Yes.

MARK: Let’s hear number two.

ICHI: For the second project, me and my partner, Laura, bought an abandoned house in the countryside, and since then we have been doing DIY renovation, at the same time, shooting a video which we put on YouTube. It’s a traditional Japanese house next to Japan’s second-largest lake, surrounded by lotus fields, rice fields.

MARK: That sounds amazing.

ICHI: It’s beautiful environment.

MARK: Where is it in Japan?

ICHI: In Ibaraki Prefecture.

MARK: Ibaraki?

ICHI: Yes. It’s a little bit north of Tokyo. We’ve got three buildings on the property. I plan to open an art gallery, a coffee shop and guesthouse in one of them.

MARK: Wonderful.

ICHI: It’s only one and a half hours’ drive from Tokyo, but the land cost is about 200 times cheaper than Setagaya in Tokyo where we live.

MARK: The property market in Japan is quite different in the countryside to the city.

ICHI: Yes.

MARK: They want to encourage people to move to the countryside or to use the buildings. Is that right?

ICHI: Yeah. I could do creative things while keeping social distancing.

MARK: Yes. It’s easier to have social distance in the countryside than Tokyo.

ICHI: Yeah. This is the second project.

MARK: And is there a video on YouTube that I can link to?

ICHI: Yes.

MARK: Great. I will make sure we put that in the show notes and we will link to it on YouTube.

ICHI: Oh, thank you so much.

MARK: I’m very curious to see. Maybe I could come and see your gallery when it’s finished.

ICHI: Yes. Please come.

MARK: Great. Okay. When it’s open maybe in a future season, I will let the listeners know.

ICHI: Thank you so much.

MARK: And we will send some visitors to your gallery and your coffee shop.

ICHI: Yes.

MARK: Okay. You did the book, that was project number one. The house is project number two.

What was project number three?

ICHI: The third project was starting NFT art, which I know you want to talk about more.

MARK: Yes. I have friends and clients who are making NFT art. I have some friends who are very enthusiastic.

I don’t know so much about it myself, so maybe you could tell me, where did you get the idea of creating NFT artwork?

ICHI: I’ve been doing digital artwork for a long time using the iPad. One of my tattoo clients, Sascha Bailey, has an NFT platform called BAE, which is Blockchain Art Exchange. He introduced me to the idea.

MARK: And what did you think?

ICHI: To be honest, at the beginning, I didn’t understand what is this.

MARK: It’s not easy to understand, is it?

ICHI: Yes. And then, actually, Sascha is still young. At the beginning, I don’t know what it is.

MARK: If anybody’s listening to this and they’re new to NFTs, it’s a little bit like, the way I think about it is that an NFT is like having an actual object.

Normally, if you have a digital object on the internet, you can copy it, you can get thousands of copies of the same thing. But with an NFT, there’s just one object. It’s like having an actual painting or a drawing. Is that right?

ICHI: Mm-hmm.

MARK: And it’s recorded on the blockchain, right? Everything can be certified that this is your artwork, for instance, or your digital file, whatever that contains?

ICHI: Yes.

MARK: How did you get started with the NFTs? I believe you took part in an exhibition at CrypTOKYO.

ICHI: CrypTokyo was the first physical NFT art show in Japan. It was organized and sponsored by GrowYourBase. It was in UltraSuperNew Gallery in Harajuku. There was lots of press, and it was on TV in Japan, too. It was a great experience, and my work was sold out.

MARK: Really?

ICHI: Yeah.

MARK: That must have been very satisfying.

ICHI: Yeah. It was great.

MARK: What kind of opportunities do NFTs offer to artists?

ICHI: It’s a new art market, so it’s an opportunity for more people to see your artwork, I think.

MARK:x In terms of the financial reward, if you have one digital artwork, then that becomes more valuable, right? It’s a bit like selling a painting because there’s just one copy of it.

ICHI: Mm-hmm.

MARK: A lot of artists say that the internet has made it harder in some ways to earn a living, but do you think there’s an opportunity with NFTs and the blockchain that more of the value can go to the artist?

ICHI: From the artist side, doing the process is the same, and then put it on the blockchain, so put the NFT, then that puts a value on it.

MARK: Yes.

ICHI: Value of the art. I think even like a not digital, or like physical things, the things puts a value on it for the collector who wants to get it.

MARK: Yeah.

ICHI: If it’s not only one, so the value is going down. The things, NFTs put a value on the digital artwork because digital artwork is easy to copy.

MARK: And so it solves that problem in a way, or potentially? That’s what we hope, is that if a collector thinks, ‘I can only buy one image. And if I buy this image, or if I have this NFT, no one else has it, then it’s valuable for people to spend money,’ the same way they would buy an oil painting or a washi painting.

ICHI: Yes.

MARK: And then, so, hopefully, this is an opportunity for artists to earn more from their work. We don’t know how it will work. When the internet first came along we thought it would make life easier, and in some ways it did, in some ways it made more problems. Who knows which way the NFTs will go?

ICHI: Yeah. It’s new things.

MARK: It must have been very exciting to be part of the very first show in Tokyo. First one in Japan, wasn’t it?

ICHI: Yes. First physical NFT art show in Japan, yeah.

MARK: Okay. NFTs are also controversial for some people, aren’t they?

ICHI: Mm-hmm.

MARK: One big concern is obviously around the environmental impact of the technology behind them. What about in Japan? How do people perceive NFTs?

ICHI: I’m not an expert, but I think Japan was slow to join the NFT market. Japan is normally cautious about most of the new things. But when NFT came, it seems like people are positive. About the environmental side… I hope that technology will challenge itself and improve through trial and error.

MARK: Yeah. I think that’s a very nice way of putting it, that technology will challenge itself, because on the one hand, there’s a lot of technology going towards the creation of the NFTs, and hopefully the opportunities that will create.

But as we know, there’s big environmental questions, and I think that is a challenge, as you say. It’s a challenge for the technologists to solve it. If you can solve one problem, maybe you can solve this problem.

ICHI: Yeah. My point is trial and error is very important, I think. Just cautious is not going to happen anything.

MARK: I think that’s a very good point. You’ve got to try. And I think that applies to art, too, maybe, in my experience with poetry, trial and error quite often is how you make discoveries.

ICHI: Yeah.

MARK: What have you learned from the process of going from tattoos and washi paper to making NFT artwork?

ICHI: Making art, the process is kind of same for me. For example, tattoo for skin, painting on washi paper, using iPad, it’s kind of same process for me. But I learned about NFT and crypto blockchain. I like getting knowledge, especially about new things.

MARK: This interests me about you because you have a very traditional art. It goes all the way back to Ukiyo-e, Edo period, classic Japanese artists, but you’re also interested in the future, in technology.

Is this something personal to you or do you think it is a very Japanese characteristic of the culture?

ICHI: Probably. I don’t know. I know only my things.

MARK: But you like the balance of the two, the old and the new?

ICHI: Yes. It’s have to adjusting the era or environment today, otherwise some of the traditional art will just disappear. For example, Ukiyo-e in a later period, lots of painter, or also investor maybe, I don’t know how to… and then there’s a carving people, craftsman, too, and then print tattoo, there’s three sections.

MARK: That’s right, it was the artist, and then the carver carved the wood for the woodblock?

ICHI: Yes.

MARK: And then the printer would put ink on it and do the actual printing. I guess, in those days it’s a bit like digital art, because you could have one image and you’d have lots of copies, right?

ICHI: Yes. the print skill is a… not skill, technology. Is going to improve.

MARK: Yeah.

ICHI: But also, if the Ukiyo-e is not popular, then no one pays the money. Also, the craftsman is gone, the market just shrinks, so it just stops. That’s one of the traditional art problems, I guess.

MARK: Yeah.

ICHI: But if there’s a new art market, it’s the chance to keep the traditional art for the future.

MARK: It keeps the tradition going?

ICHI: Yeah. Even like a little bit changing.

MARK: Yes. When you describe that it makes me think…well, we think ‘Ukiyo-e, 19th century, very old-fashioned, very traditional’, but, I guess, for them it would have been new technology. It was a new market, a new economy.

ICHI: Yeah.

MARK: And that’s really what you’re doing with NFTs today. It’s exploring the new technology and the new market.

ICHI: Yeah.

MARK: The tradition needs to change to keep going.

ICHI: I mean, not all of it but…

MARK: But, you’re exploring this. This could be a path to the future, or who knows, maybe it doesn’t work out so well. We all thought social media would be wonderful, and it’s not so wonderful now! But if you’re not exploring, if you’re not experimenting, then you never find out. If you’re just cautious, then you don’t discover.

ICHI: Yeah, I think so.

MARK: Okay. That’s the artistic side.

How has your business benefited from having NFT works?

ICHI: More people can see my work, and new experiences, like coming on this podcast, are the benefits I feel.

MARK: It’s more visible than art on paper or somebody’s body, in some contexts?

ICHI: Yes, I think so.

MARK: Is there anything else that you would like to share? Because one of the things we’re talking about this season is how artists and creatives changed direction because of the pandemic.

Is there anything you would like to share about changing your direction in the pandemic?

ICHI: As I said, challenging is very important. Life is short. I feel like I’ve been starting to think more about how to spend my limited time. I wanted do more big projects, but if each one takes a few years, I can’t do a lot! I have to think more carefully.

MARK: That’s a really good point. I was 50 years old last year and I started to think like this, I don’t have so much time…

ICHI: Especially big projects. [Laughter]

MARK: Right, exactly. How long have I got to do these things? I can appreciate that. And I think it’s a really good point that COVID really did make us think about, well, what are we doing with our time? How much have we got left? And what do you want to create? It’s wonderful that you came out with three new big projects. You’ve got the book, you’ve got the house, which will be a gallery, you’ve got the NFT direction.

The tattoo business, is that picking up yet? I know there’s only a very small number of tourists in Japan right now.

ICHI: Yeah. I mean, just for me, quite enough busy.

MARK: Oh, good.

ICHI: Yeah.

MARK: Good. I’m glad that’s the case.

ICHI: Yeah. Thank you so much.

MARK: Ichi, I think this would be a great time for us to set the listener your Creative Challenge. If you are listening to this and this is the first time you have heard The 21st Century Creative, at the end of every interview, I ask my guest to set you, dear listener, a creative challenge. This is something that you can do that will stretch you creatively, and maybe as a person, and it will be on theme for the interview, and it’s something that you can do or get started doing within seven days of listening to this conversation.

Ichi, what’s your creative challenge?

ICHI: I would like the listener to think about their own creative work and traditional history of their art or craft.

My challenge is, have a look at the traditional form of your artwork, maybe a certain type of art, or music, or writing, whatever it is, then ask yourself, what is happening with this tradition right now? Is anyone doing something new with it? And then research that, see what you can find.

Then ask yourself, ‘What could I do that would be a new version of this old iteration?’ And maybe you could experiment with a new type of work just to see what happens.

MARK: Beautiful. I love that. Okay. This is very similar to what you do. You want the listener to think about the tradition in their work, maybe do a little bit of research and look into the history of the kind of work you do, where that came from, and then see, okay, now who is extending it? Who’s doing something new today? And maybe ask, ‘Well, what could I do? How could I join in and start to experiment?’

That’s a lovely creative challenge, Ichi. It’s very much on theme for The 21st Century Creative where we’ve been saying, ‘Something old, something new,’ is one of the mottos of the show.

Ichi, I’m sure people will be very curious having heard you speak about your work, where can they go to see some of your work? Where can they find you online?

ICHI: I have a website, artist website, ichihatano.com. And then you can see my work on Instagram, ichi_hatano, Ichi Hatano.

MARK: Okay, ichi_hatano. Okay. And it’s the same for the website, .com, but minus the underscore?

ICHI: Yes. Ichihatano.com.

MARK: Ichihatano.com, okay. I would really encourage you if you’re listening to this to go and see Ichi’s website, his Instagram, his YouTube videos. There’s some incredible work there. It’s really exciting, and quite a variety to see Ichi tattooing an image on somebody’s skin, and then the images in the book, the dragons. Also, I’m very curious to see the house project.

ICHI: It’s Konnichiwa Channel.

MARK: Konnichiwa Channel?

ICHI: Yeah, Konnichiwa Channel on YouTube.

MARK: Okay, Konnichiwa Channel. Okay. Obviously, I will make sure I link to this in the show notes and we’ll get some videos in the show notes, as well. Make sure we’ve got some links to the NFT artwork. If anybody would like to collect a unique piece from Ichi, I’m sure that would be very collectible in future.

Are there any new projects, any current projects that you would like to tell us about?

ICHI: No. Just, still we are doing DIY renovation. That’s quite busy right now.

MARK: Okay, that’s cool. You’ve got plenty to do.

ICHI: Yeah. And couple of NFT project I got invited, but still not sure so…

MARK: Okay. Well, I guess if we go to your website, then we can find the new projects and follow you on Instagram.

ICHI: Yes. Thank you so much.

MARK: Then that would be great. Brilliant. Ichi, thank you so much for your time and your…

ICHI: Thank you so much for your time, too.

MARK: It’s a really amazing story.

ICHI: Thank you so much.

MARK: I’m so glad to have found this, so thank you very much. Domo arigato.

ICHI: Dōitashimashite. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Each episode of The 21st Century Creative podcast features an interview with an outstanding creator in the arts or creative industries.

At the end of the interview, I ask my guest to set you a Creative Challenge that will help you put the ideas from the interview in to practice in your own work.

And in the first part of the show, I share insights and practical guidance based on my experience of coaching creatives like you since 1996.

If you’d like my help applying the ideas from the show to your own situation you are welcome to join us in the 21st Century Member’s Group.

This will give you access to Goal-setting, Accountability and Q&A videos, as well as other exclusive insights and glimpses behind the scenes of the show. Due to the pandemic, membership is currently on a pay-what-you-want basis.

Your membership fee will also support the podcast and help to make it sustainable.

Become a Patron!

Make sure you receive every episode of The 21st Century Creative by subscribing:

The post From Tattoos to NFTs with Ichi Hatano appeared first on Creative Coach | Mark McGuinness | Since 1996.

• Creative Disruption: How 12 Creatives on 5 Continents Rose to the Challenge of the Pandemic
• Mark’s Pandemic: Poetry, Podcasting and Pressure
• Helping Musicians Through Lockdown with Charlotte Abroms

Welcome to Episode 8 of the Creative Disruption season of The 21st Century Creative, where we are hearing stories of creatives around the world who came up with a creative response to the challenges of the pandemic.

Have you ever had the idea for a creative project that you’ve never quite got round to starting?

That’s the situation actor and voiceover artist Nicky Mondellini was in back in 2019. She dreamed of making a podcast to share her knowledge, meet interesting new people and create opportunities. But there never quite seemed enough time.

Then along came the Coronavirus and her upcoming movie project was cancelled, and she found herself with more time on her hands than anticipated.

Nicky decided it was now or never – and in this interview she tells the story of what happened when she decided to go for it.

In the first part of the show, I look back over the CREATIVE DISRUPTION season interviews, and identify 4 main paths creatives took through the pandemic. Listen to identify which one you took, and the questions I have to help you make the most of your situation.

Nicky Mondellini is an actor who had an early start in show business, since childhood she was attracted to the magic of the stage and later, she continued her path by working in television and film as well as the theatre.

Alongside her acting career, she developed a voiceover business. Having grown up in Mexico City with an Italian father and a British mother has made her equally proficient in Spanish, English and Italian, as well as different accents.

Specialising in commercials for the Hispanic market, she has been the voice of major brands such as Ford, Google Pixel, Fiat Alfa-Romeo, Texas Lottery, Blue Cross Blue Shield and Ikea.

In 2017 she received the Voice Arts Award for Outstanding Spanish Language Narration by the Society of Voice Arts and Sciences. The Society also nominated her for awards in 2019, 2020 and 2021.

At the beginning of 2020 she had been cast in a film and was looking forward to starting shooting in February. Then the pandemic arrived and the project evaporated, as well as all the other acting opportunities she had been lining up.

It was a frightening time and a part of her was very tempted to play it safe. But in today’s interview, Nicky told me how she came to treat the pandemic as an opportunity to lean into her voiceover work, raise her game and attract new clients.

So she invested in her professional development, ignoring the voice at the back of her mind telling her not to spend any money she didn’t have to.

This led to the launch of her Spanish language podcast La Pizarra, which features interviews with experienced professionals in the entertainment business on both sides of the camera.

Creating the podcast has given Nicky another outlet for her creative talent, and is paying off by raising her profile, growing her network and creating opportunities for her career.

Listen to Nicky’s interview for an inspiring story of having the courage to set aside firefighting and anxiety, and commit to a project that is creatively fulfilling and strategically smart.

You can learn more about Nicky’s work as an actor and voiceover artist at www.nickymondellini.com

And you can find her podcast La Pizzara at www.lapizarrapodcast.com

MARK: Nicky, how did you get started on your creative path?

NICKY: I got started at a very young age. I was 11 years old when I did my first musical. So I’ve been in the business for quite a while. I don’t exactly like to say, ‘Oh, yeah, over 35 years in the business,’ because then they’ll think I’m much older than what I am. But that’s when I got started and it’s been lovely.

MARK: Gosh, that’s an early start. What was that experience like? Was it love at first sight? Did you think, ‘Yes, this is what I want to do,’ or was it more of a slow burn?

NICKY: Yes. No, it was. I should say my first experiences on stage were I started dancing when I was 4 years old. And we did the recitals, end of the year recitals, and they were always a magical production. It wasn’t just like, oh, all the different groups, they take five minutes for each group to dance and that’s it. No, it was all weaved into a story. I loved that element. It was a very magical element and being on stage, instead of being nervous and being afraid of people there, for me it was a beautiful reaction. I wanted to be there. I wanted to express. The lights, the stage, everything, I just fell in love with it. Each time we had a recital, I just couldn’t wait for it.

And then when I got the opportunity to play Baby June in Gypsy when I was 11, my goodness I really, really enjoyed all of that experience. The rehearsals and then going on tour. And I felt it, that that was my path. That’s definitely what I wanted to do. I caught myself fantasizing about dancing on stage, about doing this, doing that. Whenever I would hear a piece of music, I was already imagining the choreography and all the creative things that go with it. It was my world and I just felt alive in it and it just made me feel wonderful. And so, I’ve always looked to express myself creatively in many different ways.

MARK: So, from that early on, you were thinking, ‘This is the thing I want to do’?

NICKY: Yes, for sure. At one point, I thought I wanted to be a classical dancer, but I’m 5-foot-10. It’s not easy to get dance partners when you’re 6 feet tall or more when you’re on your toes. But also, I always wanted to also be acting, doing all three things, acting, singing, dancing. And so I looked for ways to do that. I would say there was a bit of an interruption at one point when I was in high school. All of my friends they were all talking about what they would do when they were going to graduate ‘I’m going to study communications,’ and another one was going to go into biology and another one was going into med school. At one point I thought, ‘Is a career in the arts going to make me be able to support myself?’

MARK: Good question.

NICKY: I started to question all of those things. I thought, ‘Hmm.’ And then also because I remember my dad saying… , I lost my dad when I was very young also, but he was saying, ‘Well, you have to prepare yourself. if you’re a dancer, what if you break your leg and that’s it? Your career’s over.’ And so, I was always thinking, ‘I have to have something more, something to sustain me if things go wrong creatively.’ So, I decided to go to Italy and live with my grandmother and my aunt and uncle and study. I was going to go down a diplomatic path and study international relations. But for the first year, I had to pick up another two languages.

I speak three languages because I grew up in Mexico City, actually. I was born in Italy. My father’s family, they’re all Italian and my mother’s British. A couple of years after I was born, my father got an opportunity to go work in Mexico. They were very adventurous, my parents so we just went there. I grew up there, so school was in Spanish, everything was in Spanish. And I grew up listening to my dad speak to us in Italian, and I would reply in Spanish and same with my mum. I spoke three, but they required four. So, I thought, ‘Okay, well, let me study French, or wait, why not French and German?’ So, I started to just do French and German for that first year, and then I was going to go into university.

But six months in, one night I was just tossing and turning and saying, ‘Okay, no, no, there’s something missing in my life. I have to go back to the stage. I need the stage. I need to be there and I need to be in front of a camera and that’s my path. who am I kidding? That’s my path. So, I’m going to do the best I can.’ I call my mom. And she’s like, ‘Well, yes, of course, come back.’ she was missing me like crazy and my sisters, and she said, ‘Here I will support you 100%. You want to go down that path? All right. You go to the best theater school, you get the best teachers, you get the best training, and you go on that path with firm feet.’ You’re not just going to wing it and see, ‘Oh maybe I could do this. Maybe I could do that. No. If you’re going to choose that path, do it correctly, get the proper training, and you build your career from there.’ So that was like coming to my senses thing and establishing, ‘I am a creative person and I just love to perform.’

MARK: Isn’t always supposed to be true in the Hero’s Journey, there’s the call to adventure, and then the hero always refuses and says, ‘No, I’ll go and do this other thing first or instead?’

NICKY: Yeah.

MARK: But then there comes a point where they have to do it the calling is too strong.

Then where did you go? You went to school to train?

NICKY: Yes. My mom had been working with a very good theater director in Mexico. And his name was Hector Mendoza. And I had met him when I was younger because my mom would bring us to rehearsals with her me and my sisters. He knew me and then would come to classes when she was teaching at the university and with all the same actors that she would then choreograph in a play. And she said, ‘Well, look, this teacher, he’s now opening a school, a specific school.’ So instead of going into the university, he wasn’t teaching there anymore for what they call the Centro Universitario de Teatro, which is the theater center in the national autonomous University in Mexico. Instead of that, he was just teaching theater there, but he opened up a school with another two very, very good theater directors in Mexico.

It was very tough, but I’m happy to say I made it all the way to the end and it was fantastic. It gave me a lot of the bases and the structure and the professionalism that I apply in everything I do nowadays.

MARK: Once you graduated, where did you get going with your career and how did you find your groove professionally?

NICKY: It was fortunate that I was working while I was studying and that’s the way I paid for my acting career, for my studies. I was modeling and I was also working in television already. I was one of several hosts of a morning show and my sections were fashion and then paint and sculpture. And I would do bits and pieces. I started to do a bit of voiceover there, but I didn’t have a studio. I was asked to do that at the studios within Televisa the TV station where I was working. I was already just getting to know producers there and working a bit more.

When I graduated bigger projects started to come along. I had bigger parts in soap operas and in drama shows. And I was also doing a lot of theater. My own teacher, the main teacher, the main director of the school, they love to work with their own students, of course. So, I became part of his company and working in productions that were put on with the UNAM the university, and with the Institute of Fine Arts as well. And I continued there. So, it was mainly acting theater and television, and bit by bit as things started to evolve, I started to do more and more television. Committing to a soap opera and the recordings there for the soap opera were lasting from six months to maybe nine months to a year, depending on the length of the soap opera. In Mexico, they’re not long-running like you have Coronation Street in the U.K.

In Mexico, they’re short. They’re short stories. They go on for about six to nine months to maybe a year and a half. That’s a very long soap opera if it goes beyond a year. In that sense, it was really nice because I ended up doing a lot of different characters for each of the soap operas that I was in. That became my main source… still doing some theater here and there.

And finally the bigger change was in 2006 when we decided to move to Houston, and that’s where my career in voiceover really started to grow a lot more. I did a little bit less acting and that was because of my family situation living in Houston. There’s no big TV studios here. And because I didn’t want anybody else to take care of my kids while I was working I wanted to be here for them and do more the mom thing and voiceover was a godsend in that sense because I was able to work while they’re in school. And so, I wasn’t at a standstill. A lot of the people that saw me, fans from the soap operas on social media, they were saying, ‘Where are you? Why did you retire? You should go back to the soap operas and all that.’ And I said, ‘No, I didn’t retire. I’m just going into a different avenue right now, but I’m still working.’ Definitely I continued doing a lot more of that.

As my kids grew older and were able to do more things for themselves, I also started to pick up on a few things with acting, going away from home for a little bit, my husband being here with them. And having the VoiceOver studio, setting it up the way I hadn’t done in Mexico, was something completely new for me. I had to learn all of that learning how to use a recording software learning how to edit, learning how to take out the breaths and how to take out little clicks and things within the audio and setting up a voiceover business basically. It was a learning curve for me but a very exciting one. Interacting with a lot of people in the voiceover community has been amazing because everyone is just very happy to give you advice and to help you along.

In that sense, I was learning how to be a business owner like I had never been before. With acting you have an agent or producers call you because they see you on a show and they want you on their show. But having to do it on my own with voiceover, I had to learn how to contact clients and how to have a CRM to be getting in touch with people, following up, and everything else. That has been very interesting and very satisfying because suddenly when I call myself a business owner, I feel very good. It’s like, ‘I’ve been building something bit by bit. Clients trust me and they know that I deliver, that I’m professional, that I’m going to do everything in my power to deliver the best audio possible and exactly what they need for their project.’

MARK: Nicky, I’m really interested to hear you talk about your two roles. One is the classic actor-with-agent setup that is the way that industry has traditionally worked, but then also as a business owner, which a lot of creatives tend to resist the idea that they could be business people, dare one say it, entrepreneurs.

It sounds for you though that that transition or having that aspect of your work as well sounded quite empowering.

NICKY: It definitely was. I had never realized or seen myself as a business owner before. I was just a performer being booked for this job or that job. I would get paid through the actors’ union in Mexico. I never even had an idea of what a CRM was or anything. I would just organically bump into someone when I was taping something and I would say hi to this producer or that actor or whatever, not knowing or not structuring it as, ‘Oh, I’m doing my networking now.’ Never had established it that way before. I just heard a tip from someone saying, ‘When you’ve been out of work for a while and you are worried, just grab a bunch of old scripts that you have, put them in your hand, go walk around the TV station, and that’s going to signal to people that you’re working, that you’re in a project, .’ It’s like work begets work. If they see you’re busy, they’ll want to see what you’re doing and call you for their project.

Then when I started in voiceover, I had an agent here. When we moved to Houston, I did get in touch with an agent and I would work and do whatever they would give me. Whatever auditions they would give me, I would do. And then I was fortunate enough to have my demos on their website and people would call me directly from hearing my demos wanting my voice for their project, but it wasn’t happening fast enough. I started to realize, ‘Well, then what’s going to happen?’ So, the more I got into the voiceover community and I went to voiceover conventions, then I saw finally all of the aspects that you need to take into consideration to build a voiceover business and call yourself a business owner.

That was for me a turning point to see, ‘Oh, okay. Now it’s also in my hands. I don’t just have to wait for my agent to send me auditions. It can be in my hands. I can actually create something and build the business upon that and contact people.’ Made me very nervous because I hate calling someone and asking for a job, and I’m very insecure about that. I’m a very shy person, even if I love being on stage, but I’m very shy to talk to people and tell them how wonderful my voice is and I should be doing their project. Because no, I realized I’m one of many and they have a choice. I needed to do all of that and just be confident in the way that I approach clients and start to build the business from there. The more I knew about it from other people within the voiceover community, the more confident I became and the more I learned about how to start building my voiceover business.

MARK: If we can now fast-forward to late 2019, the last days of normal life as we remember them fondly now, what were you working on at that stage, and what plans did you have for 2020?

NICKY: I had been doing quite a bit of networking, in-person networking. And from there, I met a producer that called me to audition for a film. He cast me in that film that was going to be done in Houston. And then also I was in about three projects that clients had told me that they wanted me for those projects to work in and that we needed to do follow-ups on those. The other thing is that I had finally made up my mind to join this mastermind group that was going to be quite an investment. I was a bit nervous. My financial goals weren’t exactly where I wanted them to be by the end of the year. And it was a question of, ‘Are you going to invest in it or not?’ But I had heard from other people that joining a mastermind group specifically with this coach was a game-changer.

So, I thought, ‘You know what? I’m just going to go all in. I’m going to do this and it’s going to be great, and I’m going to learn new things and push myself in ways that I never pushed myself before and give myself deadlines for that.’ I did it and then the coach right after, of course, the pandemic and lockdown and everything, the coach said, ‘Guys, I have to confess, I don’t know if I’m going to lead you in the right way because the world is upside down right now. We don’t know what’s going to happen. But that doesn’t mean that you have to forget your goals, so do the best you can and let’s see what happens.’

We were all nervous, but I was definitely having those goals in mind and I started to complete them one by one, bit by bit, doing the kinds of things that I could do. It was devastating when projects started to be canceled. I was counting on that film. I was counting also on those other projects for voiceover that I was going to do because, of course that would mean I was going to start paying backward. I had invested in the mastermind group and get an income and not be in the red numbers at the beginning of the year. So I just thought, ‘Okay, I’m not going to worry about that because it’s just ridiculous. I’m not going to let that frustrate me. Things are going to happen anyway. What can I do?’

Part of my goal there was to train with specific people that were very excellent coaches. For voiceover, in particular, one of them for commercial voiceover. I also wanted to book a national campaign and become a union actor within SAG-AFTRA, the union here in the U.S.

MARK: At what point did you realize that this news story about this new virus was actually going to impact you and your work directly?

NICKY: Oh, my goodness. I think that when I heard someone say on the news, ‘It’s not a question of if it’s going to hit the U.S., it’s a question of when. This is real.’ I was very worried. At one point I thought, ‘Well, I have a home studio. I don’t have to go out for work. It’s no problem. People are still going to want voice for their businesses or whatever.’ But then, of course, it hit me that the economy, everything was halted. Why? Because I was sending out emails that more than usual were not being answered or follow-ups to, ‘Hey, when’s the film going to start? I’m ready for that. Is it going to go on or… ’ And they’re like, ‘Oh, sorry, our investors had to pull out because everything is up in the air right now.’

It was something that I had been looking forward to a lot like, ‘Oh, finally, I’m going to start doing more things on camera,’ and then, ‘No, guess not.’ That was devastating. Also knowing that we just didn’t know when projection was going to go on for the videos where I was going to lend my voice. Nobody wanted to invest or move anything in their economy and everything was just halted. And so, I’m like, ‘Well, what do I do now?’

MARK: So, what did you do?

NICKY: I thought, ‘I’m not going to let myself be too invested if things are not going to move.’ I just kept thinking, ‘Okay, this is not going to go on forever.’ I always had that positivity in the back of my mind or in the forefront saying, ‘You have to keep pushing. You have to keep moving. Even though things are halted, what can you do to prepare yourself for when the economy does improve, for when things start picking up what can you do?’ One of those things, of course, was that I wanted to start my podcast. And now I had the time to do it and I could invest the time into preparing for it.

In all of my beginning episodes there, all of my guests were all talking about the… not in the first two episodes, but after that, when it was really there, really present, everyone’s talking about the pandemic and when things will go back to normal or whatever. But I got great interviews with people about their journeys, about things that they could offer to help other people in their creative business, either on-camera or behind the camera or at the mic, which is most of what my podcast is about. It was also an investment to pay for the production costs for the podcast, but I’m my own editor. So, I wasn’t investing too much in that sense. I was able to go on bit by bit and still hoping for productions to pick up. And then bit by bit, this client said, ‘Okay, now we’re able to produce this thing.’ And another client started to want to push things out more. And so production started back again very slowly.

MARK: Is this voiceover production?

NICKY: Yes. Those were voiceover production. They were promotional videos.

MARK: Are you saying that the podcast was an idea that you’d had before the pandemic, but you hadn’t had time to do?

NICKY: I hadn’t had time and I wasn’t sure when I would start. I kept wanting everything to be perfect for it.

MARK: Yes. No doubt there.

NICKY: In the mastermind group, the leader was saying, ‘What are you waiting for? Go do it. Go there.’ I’m like, ‘No, no, no, I want it to be perfect. I need this guest and I need to structure it.’ So, I was very worried about all of the details. I just wanted it to be great perfect from the get-go. He helped me realize that it doesn’t have to be perfect to start off with. It can be bit by bit building up on what you do and you’re improving from it. But if you don’t start now, you’ll never do it. I went ahead and started it and since the first interview, I loved it. I thought, ‘Wow, this is amazing. I love interviewing people about a thing that I’m passionate about, which is show business. So yes, I’m going to continue this podcast.’

MARK: What were your aspirations for the podcast? Obviously, I can hear from your voice that you love making it, but professionally, what were the goals of making a show like that?

NICKY: The podcast was also to establish myself as a professional and for credibility. If I spoke to someone when I do interviews and I talk to someone about that and they can hear the type of question that I do or the comments that I do, it’s showing either my credibility, my professionalism, my willingness to be there, to learn more about the business and to improve, and to always be someone who is a good candidate also for their project because they have had all these years of experience.

It was a bit of a branding thing I would say between the marketing and branding thing of my own business. But also highlighting the guests, highlighting their contribution, highlighting their importance in the business. I think it was also or it has been also networking because some of those guests that I don’t know very well, some of them are my colleagues and friends, but a lot of them, I find either on LinkedIn or other places. And so, it ends up being networking as well. It’s worked in all of those ways.

MARK: I think this is really one of the wonderful things about a podcast is that it is so multifaceted. that it’s creatively rewarding to make in its own right. It’s a great chance to get to know other people, to learn from them, to network, if you like. And it also is getting you and your voice and your ideas and your brand out there in a way that can benefit your career. I’ve always felt that it’s a really rewarding and, I think, a very effective medium to long-term strategy for a business.

What I’m hearing from you is that maybe all the day-to-day stuff was getting in the way until the pandemic came along.

NICKY: Exactly. Also, a fear of, ‘Am I really doing this or not?’ I’m a perfectionist. If I don’t have everything right, if I don’t have the perfect script and the perfect answers or questions or everything, I’m just not going to do it. But once I started to let go of that because I’m like, ‘Well, no, I’m never going to be as perfect as I want. I just have to get started and just do it and just enjoy the journey.’ Now I have gotten seriously busy I did have a huge turning point in 2020.

MARK: It also sounds like you had a great nudge from your coach. Who was your coach? Let’s give them some credit!

NICKY: Oh, for the mastermind group?

MARK: Yeah.

NICKY: Marc Scott from the ‘VOpreneur’ podcast. He’s also a voiceover artist.

MARK: Great. So, he gave you a good nudge in the right direction, as well as the opportunity from the pandemic.

NICKY: Oh, yeah. All the rewards that I’ve received from the podcast have been amazing because listening to my guests, as well as continuing with the goals that I had set myself for the year were starting to reap a lot of rewards. I was training with someone that was part of one of the goals and so trained for a commercial voiceover. That helped me start to put that little extra that I needed into my auditions and helped me book a very good national campaign, which I’m still doing to this day for that same client. That has been amazing, very big game-changer. Also, I’ve been invited to talk at voiceover conferences and also to talk about creating your podcast in the courses that a friend of mine is teaching about everything that has to do with voiceover.

She’s like, ‘Why don’t you talk about creating a podcast and all that?’ And I’m like, ‘Well, I’m not an expert.’ She says, ‘Well, yes, but none in the group know about what you do to get started and all that. If you contribute that to our group, that would be amazing.’ So, then I started to do that. I became more confident in myself as a business owner, as a producer, and as an artist. I think both the mastermind group and the podcast have helped me a lot in that sense.

MARK: That’s fantastic. I really do believe when you put yourself out there in the world in a way that you’re bringing something of genuine value and interest to your audience, magical things start to happen from that.

I can absolutely hear you, at that point in the pandemic, you’d already invested in the mastermind. You were investing in the podcast. It’s an act of faith up to a point, isn’t it? Particularly when the economic outlook was so uncertain. And it’s great to hear that that’s coming back to you in the form of work and other opportunities.

NICKY: Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. It’s been wonderful.

MARK: What happened to the actor during this period?

NICKY: The actor’s there, she’s always there. Since I really had to push for the growth of my business, I’m very fortunate also that my husband also has his own business, nothing related to voiceover at all, but both of us together pull through. We have two kids and soon three in university.

MARK: That’s not cheap, is it?

NICKY: No, not cheap. I’ve been able to do that and it’s just been wonderful to see how I can start to support myself and all that. But still, of course, every time I watch a movie and I see it from the actor’s perspective and with a different eye thinking, ‘Oh, that actor is so credible right now. What are they doing that touches me or how would I do that differently?’ Those are things that I always perceive or always have in mind whenever I watch a TV show or a movie or something, and always wanting to be there and to develop a character and to be either on stage or in front of the camera.

So, knowing that, ‘Okay, I have to put the actor here.’ The actor is expressing herself in different ways, I would say. Even if you’re in front of the mic, you don’t have an audience there, but voiceover has its own things and you need to be creative. You are doing a character. You’re not on stage or in front of the camera, but every time you talk, it could be something as simple as IVR, which is the voice you hear on telephone message it’s like, ‘If you’d like to leave a message, please press one.’ That sort of thing. I do tons of those in both English and Spanish. But even if it’s something as simple as that or something as beautiful and enjoyable as narrating a documentary, and it can be with any theme at all, and you’re playing the part of the expert talking about that theme. So, you are acting. When you do a commercial, you also have to be the one who is knowledgeable enough to offer the information to the client. You have to believe it and you have to be very credible. Otherwise in your voice, people won’t perceive that, you won’t be booked for that. I have been pushing my acting in all those different ways.

Of course, the interaction and having the dialogue spoken back to me with same partners, that is amazing. I miss that, but I’ve kept going to acting classes. I haven’t forgotten about that completely and I’m still auditioning for films. The one that got canceled has been pushed to October. So, I am going to do it in the end. Now hopefully, if everything goes well.

MARK: That will have a happy ending, that story, fingers crossed.

NICKY: That will have a happy ending, yes, fingers crossed. People are wearing masks when they’re not on camera or everyone rehearses with their masks on. All the safety precautions are really there and they’re very strict and that’s the only way that productions can go on. Part of me not pursuing that much also has been not wanting to be away from my kids because, of course you have to travel to other cities and be on location for about three months and that just wasn’t possible for me. I just didn’t want to do that be away from my kids for that long.

My youngest one is about to graduate high school. So that’s about to change. I’ll be more confident to do that and knowing that I can also take my voiceover studio with me because I can take my computer, my microphone, or even rent a professional studio in any city when I need to do what we call a remote connection, sort of what we’re doing now, but it’s just voice. The studio can record me directly into their own studio through my microphone with a specific platform that we use. So that’s where I’ll be heading into more and more.

MARK: Great. Overall, it sounds like the fact that you had these two strands to your career, when one of them was blocked by the pandemic, you were able to lean into the other one more and develop that and build that side of your business?

NICKY: Yes. Another investment that I did during the pandemic it was not easy to make also because I definitely was living on savings at that point, but I thought, ‘Okay, I definitely want my voice to be or my delivery to be completely different every time I audition. I want a different take. I want to have a fresh approach to my auditions.’ This coach in my mastermind group had been recommended by several of the people that were in the group. And I thought, ‘Okay, well I’ll just reach out to him.’ And yes he wasn’t cheap, but he was making a discount because of the pandemic. So, he was offering a discount if you were booking two sessions at a time. So, I thought, ‘Well, I’m going to do that.’

From the first session that I had with him, I booked something. He led me in the little way that I needed to do. And it was similar to my acting training, actually. A lot of things clicked and made sense to me, started to give me more confidence in the way that I would approach my auditions so much so that I continue to pay for that training and pay for more sessions with this coach. And that led me to then book this very good deal, the national commercial campaign that I’m still doing to this day. It was thanks to that training. I wouldn’t have been pushed to do that had I not invested in the mastermind group, had I not invested into these sessions with him.

It did make me very nervous because I’m like, ‘Oh am I going to be able to pay for this?’ Remember, I started to pay for production costs of the podcast as well. So, I’m like, ‘Oh, I’m depleting my savings.’ And then I thought, ‘Well I better do it,’ because I knew it was going to move my delivery, my business, everything into a different realm into a different aspect. And it has. I just kept thinking this is going to be good. Because I felt it. Every time we had a session, every time I felt more confident, I was taking more secure steps towards the things that I needed to do to keep building my business and to book the work that I know can sustain me financially, as well as let me express myself creatively in the way that I know I can.

MARK: That’s a terrific story, Nicky. And it really emphasizes something I think that a lot of times people think about coaching as remedial or something that you do if you are not quite up to scratch, or maybe it’s something that you do one day when you’ve got all your ducks in a row, but actually, very often it’s the most beneficial when you are already an experienced professional because a coach is the person who can take you to the next level.

And the next level on from where you were already sounds like it’s quite something special.

NICKY: Yeah. Oh, yes, absolutely. Totally worth it. In my mastermind group, everyone was talking about this coach, Dave Walsh, and how great he is and how amazing it is to do his training and how he’s helped a lot of people. So, I thought, ‘Yes, I’m going to reach out to Dave and I’m going to book a few sessions.’

MARK: Thank you, Nicky. I really appreciate your openness in sharing the challenges that you had, the way you rose to those challenges. It’s been so great to hear that your investment of time and money and courage and faith and effort is paying off so well.

If somebody’s listening to this and maybe actor, maybe a voiceover artist, or maybe working in another creative profession, and I think all of us are still facing some version of the challenges of the pandemic, what would you like to share with them that you learned from your own experience of pivoting and reinventing yourself in response to the pandemic?

NICKY: I would say that, first of all, you need to establish your goals. Really where do you see yourself going? Where do you want yourself to be to really make a difference in your business? And then not settle for ‘Oh, well, there’s no work because all of these external things are out of my control. That’s it. I can’t do anything about it.’ No, you have to be proactive and you have to keep moving forward. And I was also looking at all the free resources that I could and some coaches were offering free sessions. If you’re well-connected into the community of the business that you’re in a voiceover community, oh, my goodness, there’s tons of free advice that you can get out there. Go to the forums, the Facebook groups, listen to podcasts like one of the ones that is my favorite and was my mastermind coach is Marc Scott and the ‘VOpreneur’ podcast.

Shout out to him because he gives out great advice. From there, you will find out about others other podcasts, other forums, other things where you can pick up a lot of information, valuable information that you can use for your business and keep moving forward and keep growing. Acting as well. What can you do? Can you spare the money to invest in online classes as well?

Because a lot of online classes for acting were going on as well and there’s a masterclass if you want to pay a subscription to masterclass and a lot of amazing people, directors and famous actors, A-listers are there giving courses. What can you do to keep moving forward if you don’t have the resources at first that will help you gain the confidence starting to book the work that you can then reinvest to pay for those targeted, specific people that are going to help you move forward with your business and with your creative spirit and with all your talents?

MARK: On that theme, Nicky, I believe you have a rather interesting Creative Challenge for our listeners. If you’re listening to this episode and this is the first time you’ve heard the show, this is the point in the interview where I ask my guest to set you, the listener, a creative challenge. And this is something that is on the theme of the interview and will stretch you creatively and personally, and maybe professionally as well. And it’s something that you can do or at least get started on within seven days of listening to this conversation.

Nicky, what’s your Creative Challenge?

NICKY: This Creative Challenge has to do with your voice since I use my voice a lot for work. You have to think of ways, new ways, in which use your voice creatively, either in your personal life or your professional life, and what that would mean for you in ways that you’ve never thought before.

For example let’s say work. You’re just used to texting or emailing your clients, what about just picking up the phone, talking to them? If you get a request for a certain project and things are not clear to you, instead of going back and forth with email, just pick up the phone and talk to them call them. You clarify more things, you get a sense of the person that you’re going to work with. They get a sense from you and then they gain more confidence because you made the effort to call them and to be able to clarify things.

I’m going to say phone calls which are not as used now as they were before, but actually work very well to improve things in your work. Another example is if you have young kids or a niece or a nephew or grandkids, when’s the last time you just read a story for them bedtime story? Or just 10 minutes within the day where they’re maybe overexcited or they’re having a bit of a meltdown or a tantrum or whatever, and you just sit down and pick up a book and say, ‘Well, let me read you a story or tell you a story.’ If it’s a story that off of the top of your mind, why not? Communicate with them and be creative that way. And, of course that’s also something very nice that you can do. And there’s all sorts of things that you can use your voice for if you think about it. And so, the challenge is that. See how using your voice can change your life and your business.

MARK: What a lovely challenge, Nicky. I think particularly in these days when we are so challenged around the area of connection that very often we can’t meet in person as much as we can a voice can really bridge that gap in a way that email and text and SMS never will. So often people hide behind email and messages get lost or you don’t get that same level of trust and connection that is so vital if you’re going to be working with somebody because creative projects rarely run entirely smoothly. I think that’s a lovely thing to do, really don’t forget what a wonderful instrument your voice is, even if we haven’t all developed it as much as Nicky has. Thank you so much, Nicky, for coming on and sharing your experience on the show.

I’m going to let you pronounce the name of your podcast because I won’t get the accent right! So, give us the podcast name and also your website and where people can connect with you, and what they can connect with you for online.

NICKY: Absolutely. Well, first of all, this has been a pleasure talking to you. So, thanks so much for the opportunity. The name of my podcast is ‘La Pizarra Con Nicky Mondellini’, which means ‘The Slate with Nicky Mondellini’.

They can find out about it on lapizarrapodcast.com. There’s also an app called La Pizarra Podcast downloadable on iOS and Android. And they can listen to it most major platforms. just find it that way. If you just put La Pizarra, you’ll get 10 or 15. That’s why I needed to put my name there as well.

MARK: And that’s spelled P-I-Z-A-R-R-A? Is that right?

NICKY: Correct. Yes. So, it’s L-A, and then Pizarra is P-I-Z-A-R-R-A, and then C-O-N for Con Nicky Mondellini. And Nicky is N-I-C-K-Y. And La Pizarra is a podcast made for people in the entertainment business who are probably just starting their career or they’ve been in it for a while and they like to hear the perspective from others who are experts and who have been in the business for a while to know how they navigate the highs and lows of the business, that there are so many and what they can do to get the best training and maybe create a good demo for voiceover people or get the best pictures, headshots or all sorts of advice for people.

But it’s for people on both sides of the camera because I also talk to producers and creative directors and what their journey is like, what their perspective is in working with actors. It’s about putting those two things together. And it’s not just voiceover, it’s acting, it’s theater, it’s singers. I started to do the podcast in Spanish because most people know me from my working in Mexico, but lately, I’ve started to do more episodes in English as well because I know a lot of amazing people that are English speakers that I know can contribute a lot to the podcast and to the followers. So that’s why I’ve been doing it in both languages lately.

MARK: That’s great.

NICKY: And then people can also find out about my work if they want to hear demos or anything. It’s nickymondellini.com.

MARK: Brilliant. Thank you so much, Nicky.

NICKY: Thank you. It was really, really a pleasure. Thank you and best of luck with all your endeavors and your poetry podcast as well, which is amazing.

MARK: Oh, thank you.

Each episode of The 21st Century Creative podcast features an interview with an outstanding creator in the arts or creative industries.

At the end of the interview, I ask my guest to set you a Creative Challenge that will help you put the ideas from the interview in to practice in your own work.

And in the first part of the show, I share insights and practical guidance based on my experience of coaching creatives like you since 1996.

If you’d like my help applying the ideas from the show to your own situation you are welcome to join us in the 21st Century Member’s Group.

This will give you access to Goal-setting, Accountability and Q&A videos, as well as other exclusive insights and glimpses behind the scenes of the show. Due to the pandemic, membership is currently on a pay-what-you-want basis.

Your membership fee will also support the podcast and help to make it sustainable.

Become a Patron!

Make sure you receive every episode of The 21st Century Creative by subscribing:

The post Using Lockdown to Launch a Dream Project with Nicky Mondellini appeared first on Creative Coach | Mark McGuinness | Since 1996.

• Mark’s Pandemic: Poetry, Podcasting and Pressure
• From Tattoos to NFTs with Ichi Hatano
• Taking Deep Work Online with Laura Davis

Welcome to Episode 7 of the Creative Disruption season of The 21st Century Creative, where we are hearing stories of creatives around the world who came up with a creative response to the challenges of the pandemic.

Today we’re focusing on a creative sector that is close to my heart, which was massively disrupted but didn’t get quite the level of coverage that others did. And that’s the field of personal development and learning.

And I’m delighted to welcome a guest, Laura Davis, who is something of a legend in the field of therapy and healing.

Laura’s latest book is The Burning Light of Two Stars, a really powerful memoir about her relationship with her mother, how that was disrupted by Laura’s writings and how they took steps to make peace with one another.

In the first part of the show, I argue that all arts are performing arts – even if it’s just you sitting alone in your office or studio. So we need to show up accordingly!

Laura Davis is an author and teacher who writes books that change people’s lives.

Her first book, The Courage to Heal, which she co-authored with the poet Ellen Bass, came out in the eighties and it was the first book to give survivors of sexual abuse a pathway to the healing process.

Laura’s books have been translated into 11 languages and sold millions of copies. She is also a very experienced teacher who has been helping other writers find their voice and tell their stories at classes and retreats for many years.

And when the pandemic struck in 2020 she had to cancel all her retreats for the year, leaving her with the question: what next?

The obvious answer was virtual teaching. But Laura had always resisted this idea – she thought it was fine for teaching information or skills-based learning. But for the kind of deep personal transformation she facilitates, she’d always said it just wouldn’t be the same.

In this interview you’ll hear how she challenged her own beliefs and stepped out of her comfort zone to take her work online. So if you do any kind of teaching or coaching or facilitation, this interview is essential listening.

Laura also talks about her new memoir, The Burning Light of Two Stars: A Mother-Daughter Story the story of her embattled relationship with her mother, the rift in their relationship after the publication of The Courage to Heal, and the dramatic and surprising collision course they ended up on at the end of her mother’s life.

Before I spoke to Laura I read The Burning Light of Two Stars and I found it compelling reading, on several levels. I said to her, there are some books you read and others you experience, and this is definitely one of the latter! It’s an extraordinary account of love in the face of abuse and pain, and also demonstrates great artistic skill in the storytelling.

You can read the opening chapters of The Burning Light of Two Stars here.

And you can find out more about the book and where to buy it here.

Laura is now back to teaching in-person retreats again, as well as online classes – you can learn about all of thes at her website LauraDavis.net – including a transformative writing retreat in Tuscany.

MARK: Laura, you’ve been a columnist, a talk show host, a radio news reporter, and now a bestselling author and teacher. Is there a common thread in all of these different roles?

LAURA: Yes, there is. On my website, I have a little tagline. It says, ‘Healing words that change lives.’ I really do see that as the umbrella for everything that I’ve done. For instance, I’ve spent the last 25 years as a writing teacher in many, many different kinds of settings, but for me, writing is really just the vehicle, and it’s the means by which I build communities and connect people to themselves and to each other in the deepest ways.

So, although I’ve been a writer, and I just published my seventh book, I think in a broader way, I have always been a communicator and an agent of change. I was first published in elementary school. I started a little newspaper with my friends called The Literature Club Journal. I wrote it for my high school paper. In my early 20s, I was writing feature articles for small newspapers and published my first book, The Courage to Heal when I was 31 years old. Writing has been a thread, but also, when I was 23, I worked as a volunteer at the local community radio station. I had a women’s rhythm and blues show, and I just fell in love with the medium of radio and just the intimate sound of the human voice.

A couple of years after that, I crammed into a Volkswagen with some friends from the radio station. We drove 1,000 miles to a public radio conference in Colorado in the Rocky Mountains. And when we got there, there were all these representatives of these radio stations in Alaska, Alaska Public Radio, and they were all hiring. And so, I applied for a job as a radio news reporter. I had to fake my audition tape, which I guess showed I had the necessary skills to create a compelling story. And they flew me to Alaska for an interview, which at 25 was, like, the most amazing thing that had ever happened to me. And then they hired me. I made $16,000 a year, which at the time felt like this amazing fortune. I worked there for a couple of years, and the second year, I was able to parlay that job as a reporter into having a live daily talk show. I was allowed to interview anyone I wanted and I just fell in love with interviewing people. I found that I was really good at it, that I could make people dig down and talk about the most real, honest things that they often would never tell anyone. It was my favourite job I’ve ever had in my life.

But I was living on an island. In Alaska, it rained 13 feet a year, and I was just desperate to get back to California. I moved back to San Francisco and I knew that I was giving up my potential for any career in broadcasting because, to make it in radio, you have to be willing to move from a smaller market to a little bigger market and then you just keep moving every two years and I just wasn’t willing to do that. The other thing that happened that year when I was 27 was I began remembering having been sexually abused as a child by my mother’s father, my maternal grandfather. Like many survivors, I’d blocked it out, and when I began to remember it, it was just absolutely devastating and threw my life into a complete tailspin.

One of the ways I coped with it was writing my way through it. And that’s what led me ultimately to team up with Ellen Bass and write the book that later became The Courage to Heal. It was published by Harper & Row in 1988. It was the first book to give survivors of sexual abuse a roadmap to the healing process. Within about six months, it became this grassroots international bestseller. I was 31 years old and suddenly the publication of this book had catapulted me into this weird fame for the worst thing that had ever happened to me.

MARK: I’d like to pick up on that word, ‘courage’, in the title because, clearly, it takes a lot of courage to face up to an experience like that, to go through the healing process for yourself. Also, it must’ve taken extraordinary courage to then write about it and put it out there in public in that way.

How did you find the courage to do that?

LAURA: I was compelled. I think I have a very strong creative drive and as a creative person, I think there are certain subjects, certain themes, certain core experiences that are our material. At that point in my life, that was my material and Ellen and I always felt like we were meant to write that book. I don’t usually think that way or talk that way, but I felt like we were in the right place at the right time with the right message, and we were able to communicate it in a very simple, clear, accessible, and deeply emotional way so that people reading it felt like we were writing about their lives and giving them hope.

But for me, the hardest part of publishing it was my family, how they would react. I had to really face my worst fear, was that I would lose my family and it actually did happen. So at the same time that I was experiencing this success, I was cast out of my family. And in particular, my mother and I… it really cemented an estranged relationship that was already going sour, and it just created this terrible rift between us. So I gained the world and lost my family.

The next five years I wrote four other books about healing from sexual abuse. I was out on the lecture circuit. But then I came to this crossroads where I realized I really didn’t want my whole life and my whole career to centre around the sexual abuse I’d experienced as a child. I didn’t want to be a professional incest survivor anymore. So, I walked away from it really at the peak of my success and I leaped without a safety net. I didn’t know what I was going to do next. In some ways, that took more courage than writing the book and publishing it, to begin with.

MARK: These days, thankfully, the climate around sexual abuse is much more understanding and supportive than it was in those days. You really were a pioneer, you and Ellen, in opening up the conversation about this, weren’t you?

LAURA: Yes. We were pioneers and it was really an amazing experience and it still is because The Courage to Heal has been out for 34 years and it still is selling. It still is considered a classic. We still get letters and emails and messages from survivors all the time saying they’ve picked up the book. And unfortunately, there are new generations of survivors who need it. I think at first, we had the misguided idea that all we’d have to do is put this book out, communicate this information, and then it would stop. But obviously, it hasn’t. So, the book has had new life with new generations.

That’s a remarkable experience is to put something out in the world that not only is commercially successful but really touches people in those incredibly deep ways and creates a change in the conversation in society. I experienced that at a very young age. And I really wasn’t equipped to handle it the way I would be now. It was a challenging, exciting, difficult, and wonderful time in my life. After that, I began teaching writing, and that’s what I’ve done for the last 25 years. And first, I just taught some weekly classes in my own town designed to help people find their voice and unpack their own life stories. Later, I started doing it in retreat settings and eventually, internationally. I’ve never worked for a university or a college. This is all me hanging out my own shingle. I’ve always been, for the last 35 years, a self-prompting, solo-creative entrepreneur.

MARK: Going back to the point where you’ve had this huge success very early on in your career. In one sense, you must’ve had the world at your feet.

There’s all kinds of options that would’ve been available to you. Why did you decide to focus on teaching writing?

LAURA: I think when you get notoriety for a particular topic in this case, it was a topic of healing from trauma, people want you to do the same thing. The opportunities that come your way are in that same narrow band. it’s like a band that has their first album that’s a huge success and everyone wants them to repeat.

MARK: Exactly.

LAURA: I didn’t want to repeat. I had discovered that I’m a natural teacher. I love group dynamics. I love helping other people find their voices. It just was a niche that suited me. I started small and I found I not only really loved doing it, I was good at it. It’s more than just conveying information. I found that I was able to create safety in a group that would enable people to access memories and feelings and experiences that they really didn’t have access to any other way. I just feel like it’s my skill, it’s my dharma to teach like that.

I love building those communities. One of my favourite things is when a former student of mine says they’re still meeting with people they met in one of my workshops or classes and they’ve been friends for 20 years now or they still get together to write. I love that I’m connecting people with each other. That to me is really important, much more than the craft, is the community building.

MARK: I think a lot of people would see writing as a solitary activity. Tell me about the relationship between that work in solitude and the very intimate experience of writing and indeed reading a book and community. How do those two relate?

LAURA: I think they’re both really important. Obviously, no one is going to write for you and you have to be the one with a pen in your hand or your fingers on the keyboard and nobody else is going to do it for you and that does require deep concentration and solitude. I have found that when I’m in the company of other writers, either as a student, as a colleague, or as a teacher, it gives me so much impetus to keep going. And when you actually write in a circle with other people, what they write will influence you.

Here’s an example. I was teaching a weekly class one day, and I don’t remember what the prompt is that I gave, but one woman wrote a story about her son being a heroin addict. And this was a subject that had never come up in the class before. The next time we wrote, three other people in the same class, this was a small class, they wrote about members of their family who were drug addicts. So, it’s like the permission of one person breaking silence about something crates the space for other people to be able to write as well. One of the reasons that I really love teaching in a group setting is that when people share their words out loud… and I really encourage people to read their work out loud for many reasons.

MARK: Yeah.

LAURA: That’s how it is in a writing group. And also as you listen to others, maybe one person has a real gift for dialogue or someone else really creates a vivid setting or someone else… they just have the courage to admit and write about things that you would never consider. And it just keeps expanding the possibilities of the group. There’s also something very powerful about being witnessed which is very different than just letting your writing fester in a notebook. When you speak it out loud, you understand what it is you’ve written in a way you don’t when you only write it. We often just don’t know the impact of what we’ve written, but if you say it out loud, whether it’s in a group or even just to yourself, it is a really important step in the writing process.

MARK: I agree 100%. I’m discovering this over on my poetry podcast. Not just my own poems, but a lot of classic poems that I’m reading, I’ve known these poems for years and years and years, but I never read them out loud. And as soon as I read them out loud, I learn something new about them and maybe about why I chose them.

There’s something about really being embodied with the voice, isn’t there?

LAURA: Yeah, it’s interesting. Last spring, I recorded my memoir, The Burning Light of Two Stars as an audiobook, and what I experienced was that reading it out loud, I learned so many things about my book that I didn’t know even though it had taken me 10 years to write it. I found mistakes, but more than that, I found deeper emotional resonances with some of the scenes that I didn’t experience until I spoke those words out loud. I didn’t expect that at all.

MARK: In one sense I’m not surprised because I’ve said to you I’ve read the book recently and it was a really powerful experience, on several different levels. Partly, the structure of the book. You’ve got it beautifully structured in the way that you build out the narrative and you’ve got different layers and different perspectives and different time scales. But also, I think because there’s so many layers of emotion and different relationships and time in the book.

You say it took you a long time to write this one, which, again, isn’t surprising. Could you say something about the process of writing this book?

LAURA: It almost didn’t get written because I wanted to give up so many times. My first version, I wanted to write it as a play. It’s a story about my tumultuous relationship with my mother from my birth to her death and she was an actor. So, I thought that writing a play would be a great tribute to her, but I didn’t know anything about writing a play. So that version was a failure. I gave it to a director friend and she just said, ‘Laura, this is not a play. Just write your damn memoir.’

Then I tried to write it as an epistolary book because there’d been this long correspondence between the two of us and I wanted to do it as a series of letters. That didn’t work either. I had readers look at that draft and they said they felt like they were on the outside of a private conversation. Then I started writing it as a narrative. I found that the problem was I didn’t have all the skills I needed to write it because the books I’d published before were how-to books, they were information. I really knew that structure very well, but here I was writing a full-length story. I really had to learn about how to create the arc of a story, how to create tension, what to leave in, what to take out, what sequence to put things in to build momentum.

I think the other challenge was when I first started writing it… and I was writing about my mother and I had beta readers early readers and they would say, ‘Wow, your mother was really difficult’, because I would always ask the question, ‘How do you feel about the mother character?’ And so, I knew I had a long way to go just psychologically and spiritually in creating the story I want which would have no taint of revenge or anyone being a villain or a hero. I had to do the internal work to be able to see my mother from a much vaster perspective. I also had to be willing to bare my own underbelly. As a friend of mine said when she read an early version, she said, ‘Laura, this isn’t the courage to heal. It’s the courage to reveal.’

I put that up on the wall by my desk and I looked at that every day and I started to show my own flaws so that the two of us became very, very human, complex characters, and I knew the book was finally finished after 10 years when people would read it and they would say, ‘Oh, my God, I hated your mother on this page and loved you. And on this page, I hated you and I loved your mother.’ I’m always happy when people say they loved her even though she was an incredibly difficult person. But I was able to create this full-bodied portrait of her on the page.

MARK: That was absolutely my experience. I could see that by any stretch of the imagination, it would be difficult being in a relationship with her. And at the same time, there’s a lot of love in the book. You talk about her strengths and her charm and her wit and her charisma, and there was a really mischievous spirit that was very attractive and charming about her. I could tell you’d done a lot of work on that and it really came across, I felt. It was a very human book.

LAURA: Thank you. I did work really hard at that.

MARK: Let’s go back to, say, the second half of 2019 when you are firmly established on your track as a writing teacher and as a writer. You’re exploring different subjects in your own writing. You’ve built this really very powerful and valuable community.

I know that you were doing the retreat work in particular. You were doing that all face to face, right?

LAURA: Yes, at that point, I was still teaching weekly classes in my local town which were all face to face. And then I was teaching probably maybe 10 to 12 retreats a year. Some of them were weekend long, some of them were a week, some of them were two weeks. I was taking people traveling. I took people to Bali, Vietnam, Greece, Scotland, Peru, and these trips would combine writing, sometimes yoga because my partner, Karen, is a yoga teacher, and always a lot of cultural exploration and adventure. These weren’t primarily writing-intensive retreats but more like a creative vacation where writing would be a way to bond the group and also give people a record of some of the experiences that they had.

So, I was doing that. I was teaching a retreat annually about writing through grief, loss, uncertainty, and change. I had a workshop called ‘How to write about what you can’t remember’. I taught lots of different things but all in person.

When the pandemic hit, it was just devastating to my business. I remember in February of 2020, really before the impact was starting to hit a lot of people around me, I was really one of the first because I had this big retreat coming up in June of that year. I had a sold-out group of writers I was taking to this beautiful villa in Tuscany and it was my biggest event of the year. And I remember at first this bargaining in my head of like, ‘Well, maybe this will pass. Maybe this will just be a few weeks or a month and then things will go back to normal.’ Ultimately after really a lot of soul-searching and then just having to face reality, I cancelled not just that retreat but all the retreats I had lined up for the rest of the year. And this was much more than half my income for the year, so financially, it was really devastating. Boom! Just like that. And just like everyone else who’s in the travel business. even the weekly classes, they were all online as well.

I had to immediately pivot like many, many other people and it was a huge challenge. For many years, people had emailed me or written and said, ‘Why don’t you teach online?’ because I had fans or students or people who followed my work who wanted to study with me and didn’t want to travel across the country to do it. And I always said ‘no’. There’s no way I could replicate what I do in person in a digital environment. I was certain that I had to be in the room, that I had to feel the energy in the room, that I had to be able to be physically proximate to people, I had to be able to touch them or listen to them or go over to them or read their body language or their facial expressions.

And I felt like especially in a retreat, that everything that would happen in the physical container was essential. I chose really beautiful, sacred places to teach and I felt like the environment was part of the container. I just couldn’t imagine doing any of that online. So, I just always dismissed it. But suddenly, I had no choice. I had never heard of Zoom like most of us, but in a Hail Mary pass, I posted on my Facebook page saying I was considering a move to online teaching and I just said, ‘Does anyone have any tips for me?’ I ended up hearing back from a woman I didn’t know and she was one of these many people who had benefited from The Courage to Heal back in the day. She was an online tech host and she offered to help me for free.

A couple of days later, she sent me a link. I got online with her. She taught me how to be on Zoom. And within a week, I had moved my weekly classes online. I remember having to instruct everyone. It was so fun to show everyone how to get on Zoom and how to do this online thing. And really, those initial students and I learned how to do it together. I was so pleasantly surprised that we could maintain our intimacy and cohesiveness as a group online.

So that was a really pleasant surprise. And then I started doing small retreats online. I had a weekend workshop coming up and I scheduled it online. I moved it and I changed the focus and within just a few days, I revamped the whole curriculum and centred the retreat on helping people cope with the changes of the pandemic. I was still using writing as a tool for healing and grounding like always, but I also brought in other teachers who brought in other modalities for dealing with anxiety, uncertainty, and stress. And the other thing I did is I made that retreat on a sliding scale all the way down to free because I didn’t want money to be impediment. I really saw it as a service. And I ran that retreat a few times.

Then I taught another class for more than a year of the pandemic called ‘Writing Through the Pandemic’, and I had people from all over in that class, and we met once a week and we would write two prompts that focused on whatever was happening in the moment. And again I had a sliding scale down to zero because I felt like it was something I could offer at a time when people needed so much. I think the best compliment I got during that time was an old friend of mine, a former student, and she just said, ‘Laura, you are the most nimble person I have ever met.’ I really took that as a great compliment because I had to do something and I just found a way to reconfigure in a new setting, and I found that I could bring the same human qualities into that setting. And that was a big surprise.

MARK: Tell me more about this pleasant surprise because, clearly, you’d had a very unpleasant surprise with the whole disruption and losing over half your year’s income.

What was pleasantly surprising? Because, obviously, it can’t have been the same. What did you discover when you went into that virtual space with a group like this?

LAURA: I think especially at first when it was all new I think things are a little bit different now, people have Zoom fatigue and all of that. But I think in the beginning, people’s need to connect was so strong and, in a way, everyone was blown open by the pandemic. It’s like everything was turned on its head and people were so vulnerable and really needing to connect and needing to cope with these huge changes in their lives that they were hungry for what I was offering. I think that was one thing is how do you meet the moment with your material? And the context of what I do the procedures, the way I teach has not changed. But the content, I adapted for the circumstance.

One of the best things, which I think many people have found who are teachers, is that I suddenly could have students from all over, so it was a benefit to me to teach online because I didn’t have to just be putting up posters in my town trying to get people to come to my little weekly classes. And that made a huge difference for me and for them. Overall, there are real benefits and there’s also benefits to being in person. And I think that’s true both as the teacher and also as the recipient or as the student.

MARK: Maybe we could open up that subject of what you’d learned about the pros and cons of in-person versus online. I’m really glad that I’ve got the opportunity to open this up with you because I’ve done both myself in my own work as a therapist and a coach and I’ve been doing online for a number of years, and I totally understand and respect the position of colleagues that I’ve spoken to who have said, ‘No, I couldn’t do what I do online. There’s something so important about that actual sharing the space and the presence that goes with it.’

So, I’m really curious to hear from you. And let’s face it, the work you do, it doesn’t probably get a lot deeper or more intense or more human than what you do. What have you learned from making that transition from in-person to online?

LAURA: In some ways what’s important in getting people to open or to write from the deepest places or to build the communities I’m talking about, a lot of it is what I call the container. And it can be a physical container as I was describing about these different retreat centres. I like to teach in beautiful places because I think nature is incredibly important to me, and I think when people are doing deep work, if you can go out and walk in by the ocean or walk in the woods or just sit and look at the sky, it really helps you integrate and digest. So, I like those settings.

Building a container also has to do with the guidelines that I establish at the beginning of every workshop. And it has to do with how I define confidentiality and how I talk about it. It has to do with the instructions I’m giving for how to write to just write the first thing that occurs to you and you’re not planning or plotting or figuring out what you’re going to say. You just write really from your solar plexus, from your gut. And then the way we listen. In these workshops, the ones that are not focused on craft, we don’t critique. Your work is not being evaluated but it’s being witnessed, so it’s that feeling of being deeply listened to.

So, the way I set the container creates pretty predictable results. And I found that the same results were happening online. I didn’t think that would happen. I also found that I was able to read people, that I was able to pay attention to what was going on with people, and as I got more facile with the online interface I found there were a lot of ways to keep communicating with people whether I was sending them a private chat message, whether I was checking in with them before or after the class if I noticed that they were not paying attention or their voice was flat, that I was still able to connect in those same ways.

One of the things I stress more now… I’m just now designing… I teach these work weekends where people just come for three days to write and just get a lot of work done and I create an environment conducive to that. And I just decided to take it online for the first time. Last night, I was sitting and writing some instructions and that one of the things I think that’s important online is to give people guidance in how do you create self-care for yourself outside of the retreat. One of the first things I might do at an online retreat is have people make a list or think about what they could do to take care of themself if strong feelings arise or if the writing is challenging or if they’re having a hard time so that before that situation happens, they have a plan.

Most people coming to my workshops, they already have a lot of internal resources. So, it’s just reminding them, ‘What do you do when you’re having a hard time? Who would you contact? Would you go out in nature? Don’t put another activity right butted up against our workshop so that you have time to integrate what you’ve experienced.’

MARK: So, moving on and looking at what you’ve learned from this experience and maybe what you want to carry forward into your work in the future, what would you say that you’ve learned maybe that online is really good for and you want to keep doing it for those reasons? And then also is there anything that you’re going to say, ‘Well, okay, there is a limit and this is what in-person can do that nothing else can and this is what I’m really looking forward to getting back to’?

LAURA: I think for me, I am definitely going to keep teaching online. Some of it is my own convenience. I don’t have to get plane tickets, I don’t have to deal with jet lag, I don’t have to stay in a hotel. I can just walk from my house about 20 feet into my office, put on a set of headphones, and teach and then go right back and cook dinner. I really love the convenience of teaching online. I like the fact that I have potentially a worldwide audience who can participate in my workshops. My pool of potential students has grown exponentially. Those are two things I would not want to give up. So, I think I will definitely keep teaching. And also, like, the weekly classes I have which are ongoing, now many of the members live far away from me. Most of them live far away from me and a smaller percentage are local. So, I would definitely keep doing that.

I do look forward to teaching in person again. I think there is something unique and special about being in-person that you don’t get online. I do miss that. I miss just three dimensionality. I had a work weekend with mostly my local students at a beautiful place up in the country at the beginning of December before Omicron. It was a three-day retreat. And I was just so thrilled. Everyone had to be vaccinated, they had to send me their vaccine card, they had to get tested before the retreat. We even wore masks indoors because I had a couple of people who were at very high risk.

And we all were like, ‘Oh, my God, we’re seeing each other!’ It was very wonderful just to be together, and many of these were people I’ve been meeting with online for a long time. So, that was wonderful. But there’s also something about the accessibility of online that I feel like I’m not going to turn back from it, both for me and for the students. If someone wants to come to a retreat with me online, they just pay the tuition. They don’t have to have an airline ticket. They don’t have to rent an Airbnb or pay for a retreat centre or pay for their meals. So, there’s pros and cons and I think I will definitely do a hybrid.

I don’t think I would try to do both at the same time like a retreat that is simulcast. I don’t think that would work for what I do because it’s not primarily a lecture or a talk. It’s interactive. But I think I will, going forward, definitely have both in my toolkit. And I’ll have both on my schedule. I don’t see ever turning away from teaching online. It’s been incredibly valuable and rewarding and surprisingly good.

MARK: That’s lovely to hear, Laura. One thing I’ve said right from the beginning of this whole business is that I hope that, as some consolation, that we all come out of this with more choices than we went in with. And it sounds like that’s the case for you. I’m also hearing that a lot of students are benefiting because they can access your work and your help and who wouldn’t have been able to do it beforehand.

LAURA: Yes.

MARK: Maybe we can circle back to the other aspect of your work, the writing. Am I right in thinking that you finished writing The Burning Light of Two Stars during 2020 when Covid was very much a part of our lives and that you then had to launch it in the midst of the pandemic?

LAURA: Yes. That’s true. I had finished a draft at the end of 2019, and then at the end of 2020, I didn’t look at it for a year, which was incredibly beneficial because I looked at it with fresh eyes and I was like a laser beam. I just cut 12,000 words in that last pass. I restructured the whole book. I shortened the chapters and I think it has a very propulsive momentum and I created it in that last edit. I don’t think I could’ve done it if I had been working on it the whole time but I was able to look at it with really fresh eyes.

So, I finished it really at the end of 2020, beginning of 2021. And then I wanted to publish it and I went with a hybrid press and it was a very compressed timeline. I think I signed the contract in February. The book originally was supposed to come out in October. It got delayed because of paper shortages and was finally released in November. And in that time, I also did the audiobook so it was really all I did in 2021. We got a puppy, so I was raising a puppy and the book and a little bit of teaching. But that was my main activity. In some ways, I think because I knew I was launching a book during the pandemic, it was better for me than for some authors who were in the midst of launching their book and heading out on a book tour when the pandemic happened because I was able to plan an online launch, I knew that’s what I was going to have.

MARK: How did you approach it differently?

LAURA: I didn’t have any live events. No bookstore readings in person, no physically signing books for people, no eye contact with the reader saying how much they love the book. I knew I wouldn’t have any of that, and so I did a lot of things. I have a lot of colleagues who have audiences of their own, and I did a lot of collaborative events with other people. I have a colleague and friend, Ann Randolph, who also teaches writing and performance. She does one-woman shows. And she and I got together and taught a one-day workshop called ‘The Courage to Complete’. It was about how to get your creative project over the finish line.

She and I did that together. We wrapped a free book into the cost of the retreat. So all the people who came to that ended up getting shipped a book. It was definitely a wonderful workshop and I got to talk a lot about the process of finishing the memoir. So, I piggybacked on other people’s audiences as much as I could. I developed a stronger social media presence. I had three major launch events. They all were online. I just had to do it that way. I had to rely on digital mediums. I did some of the things I would have done anyway, but it was a very different experience.

MARK: Again, do you think there are elements of this you might take forward? I don’t know how keen you are to write another book soon, but when you get around to it next time, do you think it will affect the way you approach that whole process?

LAURA: I would love to meet readers in person. I have really missed that a lot. But I think a lot of the skills I learned in terms of getting more savvy about online marketing, I absolutely would move that forward for whatever I do next, whether it’s teaching or retreats or another book. It’s just like my quiver is more full than it was before. I’ve just learned new skills, new ways to reach people, and I will just keep integrating that into whatever I do. So, hopefully, both will be available in the future.

MARK: Yes, let us hope fervently that that’s the case. I think this would be a good time, Laura, for you to set our listener your Creative Challenge.

If you’re listening to this show and this is the first time you’ve heard it, at the end of every interview, I invite my guest to set you, the listener, a creative challenge, which is on the theme of the interview and is something that you can do to stretch yourself creatively and maybe personally as well and that you can complete or at least get started on within seven days of listening to this conversation.

Laura, what’s your Creative Challenge?

LAURA: I’m going to give everyone a writing prompt and some very simple directions to complete it. To write this prompt, I want you to use writing practice which is one of the core practices I use in all of my teaching. And it’s a pretty reliable way to get right into the deepest material to get the editor out of the way and to write from the core or the gut where the real treasures are.

I’m not going to give you the prompt yet but here’s the instructions. When you sit down to write to this prompt, don’t plan or think before you write. I want you just to start with the very first thing that pops into your head, the first thing that occurs to you. If you can’t do it immediately, you can jot down the prompt and whatever story comes to mind and then come back to it later. You’ll be able to take a look at this in the show notes. But the main thing is don’t plan what you’re going to say. Don’t spend time saying, ‘Oh, I think I’ll do this, I think I’ll do that.’ You want to follow that impulse.

And then once you put your pen on the paper… and I do recommend hand writing for this because you make a different connection physiologically between the brain, the hand, and the heart. What I want you to do is write without stopping for 20 minutes. Let the writing go in whatever direction it wants to go. If you move away from the prompt, that’s fine. If you circle back to it, that’s fine. Just follow the impulse and write without stopping for 20 minutes. And don’t cross out because that is the editor coming in and getting in the way. Just write moving forward. Don’t reread, just keep going forward.

If you get stuck, you could start back at the beginning with the prompt again or you could try inserting the phrase, ‘Here’s the part I never told anyone before.’ Or, ‘What I really need to say is… ’ It’s like your conscious mind is prompting your subconscious giving you more permission to get underneath your habitual stories.

MARK: Yeah.

LAURA: So, I’m going to give you the prompt and you’ll write it for 20 minutes. And in this exercise, just writing it is not enough because we often don’t know what we’ve written until we speak it out loud. Natalie Goldberg, who created writing practice says, ‘Writing is like the inhalation and reading out loud is the exhalation.’

So, the second part of the Creative Challenge is to read your words out loud. And you can do this with a trusted friend or a family member or even just out loud to yourself. But you want to speak the words so you could hear the impact and really feel it in your body.

Here’s the prompt. It starts with a quote from Alexander Graham Bell. ‘When one door closes, another opens, but we often look so long and regretfully at the closed door that we fail to see the one that has opened for us.’ Let me read that again. ‘When one door closes, another opens, but we often look so long and regretfully at the closed door that we fail to see the one that has opened for us.’ The prompt is, tell me about a time this was true in your life.

MARK: Wonderful. Thank you, Laura. I think that is a really great invitation to all of us to be a bit more courageous in our writing, in our speaking, in our communicating.

Thank you so much, Laura. I’ve learned a lot from listening to you, from reading the book. I would really encourage people to get hold of a copy of The Burning Light of Two Stars. It’s an extraordinary experience to read it. I was saying to Laura that it’s like there are some books you read and there are others you experience. This one is definitely in the latter category. It’s a book that you won’t forget. I think my experience was it is very moving and parts of it are very painful. But it’s also a real page-turner and some of it is very funny and very entertaining too. It’s a very human book.

Laura, apart from picking up the book, where can people go to find out more about you and your work and maybe reach out and get some help from you?

LAURA: On my website, which is www.lauradavis.net, you can read the first five chapters of the memoir and also order it. All the other online offerings that I have, it’s www.lauradavis.net. I also send out weekly writing prompts similar to the one I just gave you. And if you sign up at my website for my mailing list, you’ll start getting those every Tuesday. They’re great spurs for either writing or conversation.

MARK: Great. Thank you, Laura. And as usual, I’ll make sure all the links are available in the show notes at 21stcenturycreative.fm. And also if you want to have the reference for the writing prompt, you’ll find a full transcript of this interview and you’ll find the writing prompt at the bottom of the transcript. Laura, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom.

LAURA: You’re welcome. It’s been a pleasure.

Each episode of The 21st Century Creative podcast features an interview with an outstanding creator in the arts or creative industries.

At the end of the interview, I ask my guest to set you a Creative Challenge that will help you put the ideas from the interview in to practice in your own work.

And in the first part of the show, I share insights and practical guidance based on my experience of coaching creatives like you since 1996.

If you’d like my help applying the ideas from the show to your own situation you are welcome to join us in the 21st Century Member’s Group.

This will give you access to Goal-setting, Accountability and Q&A videos, as well as other exclusive insights and glimpses behind the scenes of the show. Due to the pandemic, membership is currently on a pay-what-you-want basis.

Your membership fee will also support the podcast and help to make it sustainable.

Become a Patron!

Make sure you receive every episode of The 21st Century Creative by subscribing:

The post Taking Deep Work Online with Laura Davis appeared first on Creative Coach | Mark McGuinness | Since 1996.

• Mark’s Pandemic: Poetry, Podcasting and Pressure
• From Tattoos to NFTs with Ichi Hatano
• Using Lockdown to Launch a Dream Project with Nicky Mondellini

Welcome to Episode 6 of the Creative Disruption season of The 21st Century Creative, where we are hearing stories of creatives around the world who came up with a creative response to the challenges of the pandemic.

Today we are off to Australia in the company of Charlotte Abroms, a music manager based in Melbourne with a roster of successful clients and many years’ experience in the industry.

Music was one of the creative sectors that was hardest hit by the pandemic, with gigs and tours cancelled around the world, and artists cut off from their connection with fans as well as their income. In today’s interview Charlotte talks about the devastating impact of the virus and restrictions on the music industry.

But she’s an incredibly upbeat and resourceful person, so she also talks about the silver lining she discovered, when she had a lot of extra time on her hands, and used it to find new ways to support musicians as people as well as in their career.

In the intro to the show I talk about the video talk ‘Forget the Career Ladder, Start Creating Assets’, that I gave to Robert Vlach’s community at Freelancing.eu, and which you can watch for free on YouTube.

I also introduce some new projects from former guests on the podcast:

Christina Patterson’s beautiful, funny and wise family memoir, Outside, the Sky Is Blue.

Maria Bovin de Labbe’s debut album, SKIN.

Jarie Bolander’s new guide to email marketing, Story-Driven Outreach.

Charlotte Abroms is a music manager based in Melbourne, Australia, who when the pandemic struck, had years of experience to draw on, to help her and her musicians see it through.

As a manager, Charlotte guides the careers of artists such as Ainslie Wills and Haarlo, and producers Jonathan Steer and John Castle.

She is a recent recipient of Australian accolades the Lighthouse Award, the Fast Track Fellowship and the Outstanding Woman in Music Award. Charlotte comes from a background as a freelance digital strategist in creative agencies, working in some of Australia’s most highly regarded agencies.

In 2010 she co-founded the music blog Large Noises, a website dedicated to filming live bands in various locations around Melbourne. For the blog, Charlotte helped scout, film and edit over 50 local and international bands. Some of the videos went viral, with millions of plays, and were picked up by BBC radio and other media outlets around the world.

She became a campaign manager for music startup soundhalo, working on campaigns in London for Atoms for Peace (Thom Yorke, Nigel Goodrich, Flea), alt-j and Muse.

Driven by passion, belief and commitment, Charlotte has evolved a voluntary role in the music community into a full-time professional artist management and consultancy role.

Charlotte focuses on creativity, building international teams of likeminded people, creative strategy and finding innovative ways for music to connect to audiences.

When the COVID-19 pandemic struck, Charlotte was about to book tickets for a major European tour. Instead, she found herself enduring one of the longest and strictest lockdowns in the world in Melbourne.

I was inspired to reach out to Charlotte when I read articles about her creative response to the pandemic on several fronts – helping musicians create virtual gigs and sell tickets, organising a fundraiser to help people in the music industry, and creating a new mentoring service for musicians as well as younger music managers.

I was really struck by the fact that, faced with such an overwhelmingly difficult situation, Charlotte responded by looking outward – to her musicians, her peers and the wider industry, to see what she could do to help.

In this interview, she talks about her own journey in the music business, from starting a blog and filming gigs in backyards and even bathrooms, to growing her passion project into a full time business. She also talks about the challenges and some unexpected benefits of lockdown.

Whether or not you’re a musician, you’ll likely recognise many of the challenges Charlotte describes. And I think we can all benefit from her upbeat attitude and creative responses to the challenges of the pandemic.

You can learn more about Charlotte on her website and follow her on Instagram.

Empty music stage photo by Santeri Viinamäki

MARK: Charlotte, how did you get started in the music business?

CHARLOTTE: I think my story is quite common for a lot of people who are music managers where it, generally, starts out, and it did for me, in a voluntary position that, eventually, became a full-time role.

I started out working in the acting industry. That was just purely because my cousin works in the acting industry and I finished high school and he asked me if I wanted some part-time work. And that role that I did with him at an acting agency turned into like a junior agent role, which is equivalent to, what we would call, transferable skills to a music manager as well, managing the career of actors. That was a job that I was doing alongside studying film at university. I’ve always just been really, really passionate about music.

My entry into music was a combination of all of these things. I’d learned the skills to be a manager or an agent in my day job. I was studying film and I was really wanting to hone my skills as a filmmaker, an editor, a writer, a storyteller. While I was at university, it was partly a university project that my friend Eliza and I started. Her name’s Eliza Hull and we studied at university together. She’s also an artist in Melbourne and a disability advocate. We decided to start a blog that no one was really doing anything like this at the time, in Australia, but it was something that you see a little bit in the UK, they have Mahogany. And in France, they have Logitech, basically a blog that captures live music on film.

MARK: When was this, you started?

CHARLOTTE: This was in 2009, I’d say, 2010.

MARK: Okay, so, reasonably early.

CHARLOTTE: Yeah. We were scouting bands that we loved, we naturally went to gigs quite a lot. And we would see a band that we’d love, we would share it with each other, because we were so passionate about it, and then we decided to offer to film them, just on a voluntary basis. I was wanting to learn a little bit more about filming and editing. Eliza loves writing and she was getting really into the idea of producing this content, so, finding the bands and being the main communicator with the bands.

And then she onboarded a sound engineer who is actually my now partner, Jonathan Steer. The three of us co-founded this website together, the blog was called Large Noises. We ended up on a voluntary basis, filming about 50 plus bands, locally. The idea was that we would film these artists in locations around Melbourne to showcase a little bit of Melbourne but sometimes obscure locations in bathrooms and bathtubs.

MARK: Literally in bathtubs?!

CHARLOTTE: Yeah, we filmed a Melbourne band in a bathroom and we filmed a really amazing singer-songwriter named Oscar Lush in a bathtub just with his guitar and his harmonica. We branched out and filmed a few international bands as well, which was a highlight for us at the time. And that was my entry into working in music.

MARK: What was it about music, if it’s not a dumb question? But maybe it isn’t such a dumb question. I love music but I never ended up working in the industry.

What was it about actually working with musicians that you loved?

CHARLOTTE: I think you’ll relate to this as a poet yourself, but the thing that draws me the most to music is lyrics, and always has been. I love the musicality of lyrics, of poetry, and words when it is put to music. What I was finding was I identified, and still do identify more as a creative than a typical music industry quote-unquote, ‘industry person.’ And I felt like I had developed a skill set that could help people.

I was finding myself in these underground bars and pubs when I was 18-19, watching bands play and going, ‘Wow, they’re amazing,’ ‘This could be the next big thing.’ And then asking, ‘How are you releasing music?’ or, ‘How are you getting your name out there?’ And often they didn’t know how to. Often there was this amazing skill set within their craft, which, in this case, is music, but not really knowing how to market themselves. And, I’ve seen that a lot across the board with creatives. Then there I was really enthusiastic going, ‘Well, this comes quite naturally to me. I know how to market your music because I am your audience’.

MARK: Tell me more about that. How does being their audience help you? And what is it that comes naturally to you? Because you’ve mentioned this skill set a few times.

CHARLOTTE: I think I have an understanding when it’s music that deeply connects to me. And like I said before, that’s often to do with lyricism. I found that the types of bands that I love tend to have a bit of a cult following. What we were able to do with this website, at the time, was create really raw authentic content. ‘Content’ wasn’t really a buzzword back then but beautiful cinematic footage, even though we were just starting out. Our aim was to give the viewer that feeling that music gives you or poetry gives you or a film can give you, something that really hits you in the heart.

I think I had a knack for identifying that because I love that myself, as an audience member, but what I realized was there are a lot more people like me out there who also are drawn to this same thing, which is the authenticity and the vulnerability and the rawness of the type of music that I like. And so, I knew how to market to those people because I am one of those. That’s what I meant before.

MARK: Okay, so, that’s the core of it, but how do you join the dots? How do you help a band reach more people like you?

CHARLOTTE: To begin with, and this is before I officially became a manager, what we were doing was we were making these videos. I think the first one that had some success was a Melbourne artist named Hayden Calnin, and we filmed him playing his song ‘Summer.’ Which is still on YouTube, so, any listeners out there, you can go…

MARK: Is the whole blog still online? Can we link to it?

CHARLOTTE: It is, yes.

MARK: I’ll definitely make sure we will link to it in the show notes, folks. Go and check this out.

CHARLOTTE: It’s pretty much retired these days but sometimes we think about bringing it back.

MARK: If the archive is there, then nothing dies on the internet, does it?

CHARLOTTE: Yeah. We filmed this artist named Hayden Calnin, and I was actually in London at the time. I think the version of the YouTube video that we had filmed was streamed on a radio show. I think it was on BBC 6. And so, we woke up the next morning, and the YouTube account was linked to my email, and I just had hundreds of emails of people commenting on how talented Hayden was. And I was like, ‘We’re going viral,’ didn’t really know Hayden was going viral.

From then on, I think what we realized was we had a knack for scouting talent before these bands blew up. And probably the greatest example of that was an artist named Vance Joy who has a song called ‘Riptide.’ And we filmed him playing ‘Riptide’ with his ukulele in our backyard. I think that song’s had over a billion streams these days on Spotify.

MARK: Backyards and bathrooms, this is terrific!

CHARLOTTE: Yeah. A few weeks after we filmed it, and this isn’t to do with us filming it, it was just the song got released and it really connected, and he went to number one all over the world. What we were finding was that we were scouting local Melbourne talent, just it came from such a pure and passionate place of just a couple of music lovers at uni. ‘Maybe we can film these bands.’

That led me into forming connections and friendships and relationships with people who work in the music industry, whether that was managers or publicists or booking agents, just purely through booking these bands. I found myself, as I said before probably more aligned with the artists. A lot of my friends are artists, whether it be music or otherwise. And having worked in the acting industry, as an agent and also, at that point in time, studying communications, I was learning a lot about how to market products or, in this case, music.

I just started volunteering myself too. Do you want me to write your press release for you? Because it came really naturally to me and to some people. My friends would say, ‘I’ve been trying to work on this bio for days and I just can’t get it right,’ and I’d be like, ‘I love writing bios, why don’t you send it to me?’ It really started out from a voluntary place of building a portfolio and just wanting to help people who I thought were talented.

MARK: It must have been a dream come true for them. Because this is all the stuff, I mean I hear about this week and week out, I’m sure you do, people will say, ‘I just want to do my creative thing, my artistic thing. I want someone else to take care of the business side of things.’ And you are that fairy godmother, by the sound of it.

CHARLOTTE: I honestly can’t even imagine what it would be like to have someone come in to your life and say, ‘I’ll take care of everything, you just focus on being creative.’ I’m looking at this objectively, at other managers I know, it really is quite a selfless pursuit. I’m interested to talk to you about it because, the angle of your podcast is around creativity. I appreciate being put in a creative space because often people will look at the relationship of all of the different people in the music industry and they look at the band and the artist and they go, ‘They’re the creatives,’ but really there are so many creative people who sit behind the scenes as well.

MARK: Oh yes. Oh yes, indeed! For me the more time I spend on it, the more I realize creativity is really a team sport.

A lot of us think that we have impeccable taste in music, and a lot of time I think it’s a bit of a delusion. But in your case, there does seem to be evidence that you had a really good eye and a good ear for talent and you were able to present that to the world in a way that other people could relate to it.

You developed that into your own management agency, is that right?

CHARLOTTE: Yeah. By this point, in terms of my day job and career, I’d moved on to working at, what we call, creative agencies, digital agencies, advertising agencies. Which are quite similar to the process we just spoke about, really collaborative process of working alongside people to market a product. And so, again, I was still building that skill set, and I think the voluntary management position just started out with two people who I’d met who are a band called ‘Haarlo,’ who I still manage to this day. They said, ‘Oh, we’ve got this CD and it was really, really high-quality.’ It was a five-track EP and it was back when, people were still listening to CDs. And they’re like, ‘We don’t know what to do with it but we’ve made 300 copies of our CD.’

I didn’t really know what to do with it either but I sent it to a friend of mine who was a musician, in New York. She had a blog and she said, ‘I’m putting this mixtape together, I’ll pop one of their songs on this mixtape.’ And when I say ‘mixtape,’ it was on SoundCloud, so, it wasn’t actually a physical mixtape. She popped it on there and then they started getting all these emails, mainly from the States, just saying, ‘I love your stuff.’ ‘So and so from Atlantic A&R,’ and they were like, ‘we don’t know what to do with this.’ I was like, ‘Forward them to me, I love writing emails.’ That was the entry into becoming a manager. It took me about 7 more years to actually turn it into a full-time job and build a roster. That was the beginning.

MARK: Can we fast forward a little bit then to late 2019? I’m curious to hear, obviously, before the coronavirus hit the headlines, what was your work life looking like at that point and what were your plans for 2020?

CHARLOTTE: At that point in time, it was very touring-heavy for me. Not all managers become tour manager hybrids but when you start out managing developing acts, sometimes tour managers are unaffordable, at that point in time. I love traveling and I love live music. I would say 2019 was pretty much jam-packed full of tour managing, traveling alongside bands. Both nationally, within Australia, and internationally. 2020 was looking to be much of the same.

When I look back in hindsight, I was very close to experiencing quite severe burnout but I had no idea that that was the case until the pandemic… which my friend, who also works in music, her and I refer to it as, ‘We were unfairly dismissed,’ like, it was an unfair dismissal from our jobs. But there was, no one to look after us. I’ve spoken to a lot of managers and crew tour managers, sound engineers, lighting engineers, I think the general consensus is that everyone had the opportunity to stop and pause and reflect on how they were working. When I think about how I was working late 2019, 2020 was already completely planned out and I was going to be all over the world.

MARK: At what point did you get the unfair dismissal notice? Or what point did you realize, ‘Oh, hang on a minute, this is going to be serious for me and my musicians.’?

CHARLOTTE: Interestingly, I was about to book flights for a major European tour. I joke about how I was getting a lot of my news source from my mom at the time because everybody was talking about this coronavirus, and this was early January, I found that it was just stressing me out, this impending virus, that was in China at the time, and no one really knew how it was affecting people. One day I just happened to be on the phone to my mom and I said, ‘I’m about to book all of these flights,’ and she said, ‘I don’t think you should do that.’

Thinking back, at the time, I was like, ‘Is she overreacting?’ She’s like, ‘I think this coronavirus it’s starting to break out.’ At that point in time, it’s when the cases were starting to break out in Italy and Greece, from memory. And she just said, ‘I think you should hold off on booking flights.’ Which was such a good thing because, I was about to book international flights for a tour party of eight. And people still haven’t received refunds on those flights they’ve all just been credited.

Thankfully, I think that was the point in time where I said, ‘Okay, well, I’ll hold off, and maybe we’ll give it a week or so.’ Within a couple of weeks, I went to a workshop with one of the artists that I managed and we had just flown in from Sydney to Melbourne and then we drove to this workshop. And when we got there, the host of the workshop greeted us and said, ‘Oh, you didn’t touch anyone at Melbourne Airport, did you?’ and we were like, ‘What does that mean?’ We just had no context. ‘No.’ And she was like, ‘Well, apparently, the coronavirus is in Melbourne Airport.’ That was the first I’d heard of it hitting Melbourne. Then I think Melbourne ended up being in, I think, the longest lockdown in the world.

MARK: Ooh, that’s not a record you want to hold, is it?

CHARLOTTE: No. Unless you were very burnt out and also needed a bit of a rest.

MARK: Okay. Well, maybe, we’ll come on to that. But, we’ve got listeners all over the world, everyone had a different experience of lockdown.

What was the lockdown situation like in Melbourne, how strict was it?

CHARLOTTE: It was very strict. There were I think, in total, we would joke, it was five or six major lockdowns, and we would joke like, ‘Is this lockdown 5.1 or 5.2?’ because the rules would slightly change. I think, at its strictest, you weren’t allowed to travel more than 5 kilometers, you could only leave the house for 3 reasons, and I think that was medical. It’s funny that it wasn’t that long ago but I’ve blocked it out now. It was for medical reasons, for supermarket shopping, and what was the third reason? Oh, to get tested, I think, to get tested for coronavirus. There was a curfew, which sometimes was 8 p.m., sometimes was 9 p.m. There were border blockages between metropolitan Melbourne and what is considered to be regional. I was actually based in regional for a large portion of the pandemic, and the rules were slightly more lax there. But within the city it was really, really strict.

In my experience, speaking to other young people, it was pretty damaging to people’s mental health. Even just speaking to colleagues of mine who were in Sydney, they had such a different energy to anyone who was in Melbourne because all lives went on and off for almost 12 months of being in pretty strict lockdowns and not being able to see friends and family.

MARK: This is a pretty dramatic shift from jet setting around the world on international music tours. What was going through your mind at that point? And also, because it wasn’t just you, you had the musicians that you were taking care of, right?

CHARLOTTE: Yeah. I think that was quite a common, and still is a common issue for managers was also not just learning how to be resilient yourself but learning how to help creatives cope through them having a huge part of their identities stripped away from them. When I say that, I’m referring to live music because in the realm that I work in, most people, their major source of income was live. And when that was just gone, you’re dealing with a lot of friends and colleagues who are musicians who are just not getting any feedback. I don’t think it was overly motivating to be writing, at that point in time, either when I know that a lot of industry went, ‘Well, this is the perfect time to write.’ You’re locked in the house but no one’s having any experiences.

MARK: Which brings its own pressure, doesn’t it? I’ve spoken to a few people who felt guilty that they weren’t writing the great lockdown novel or, in this case, album or whatever. But creativity can be mysterious but it’s maybe not a great mystery why not everyone was a fountain of creativity during the lockdown that you’ve described.

How did you respond to this? Firstly for you and then for your musicians. At what point did you start to see, ‘Okay, this is going to be my game plan through this’?

CHARLOTTE: I think we had quite a health-first approach within not just the roster of musicians and producers I work with but the colleagues and the wider team that we had appointed. When I say ‘health-first,’ I mean emotional health, as well as physical health. It was around staying safe. We didn’t know what this virus was. At that point in time, there was no vaccine. Just doing whatever you can to look after yourself as well as there was a lot of just checking in on how people were doing in the early stages. We almost had a little bit of a joke between us that it was a forced break to begin with. There was something appealing in that, to go, ‘We don’t have to be rushing around from airport to airport and changing currencies.’

And, as sad as it was we were holding on to hope that, this is in like February, March, we were holding on to hope that, things might reopen later in the year and some of those concerts might still go ahead. And then I would speak to my news source, my mom, or one of my colleagues in Sydney who was really, really following the situation. And he was saying, ‘I don’t think it’s going to open by the end of the year.’ The word that got thrown around the most, I pivoted into relying on my digital-marketing background and skills. A lot of the projects that I had worked on before, dating right back to the blog I started when I was 18, was about finding an audience in an online capacity.

I think the first idea that I wanted to execute was to work alongside Jonathan Steer, who’s a sound engineer here, who I started Large Noises, the blog, with. And he had created a studio setting that he made it so that it was possible to be completely isolated within that studio as one person. As an artist, you could go into the studio and he could operate the studio from another location. There was no risk of infection, and it was completely legal at the time. Our first venture was almost an extension of the blog that I told you about. We started a little platform, that doesn’t exist now because it was an on-demand platform, where we filmed and recorded some online solo concerts. I worked with a web developer and a designer to find a way to monetize it. We partnered with Ticketmaster, and it was very, very early days when people were open to the concept of streaming and, watching online concerts from their homes. It was a great little revenue stream for a while.

Then I think what happened was people, particularly in Melbourne, got frustrated with having to watch concerts online. Around the time we started to feel that as well, we thought, ‘Maybe we’ll put that idea to bed,’ but that was the first thing that we executed, first idea that we executed. It was an idea that I wanted to work on prior to the pandemic. Having spoken a lot to Eliza who I started Large Noises, with, back in the day, about accessibility, we had a really interesting conversation about a gig that I’d put on. It was a seated gig at the Melbourne Recital Centre. I had three pregnant women emailed me to say, ‘I missed out on tickets, and I was so excited about this gig because it was seated,’ and I said, ‘Oh, it’s funny.’ I’ve never even thought about the fact that if you’re seven, eight-months-pregnant, you’re not going to want to go to a sweaty band room, you must just be missing out on music altogether. But if it’s a seated venue, then you can access music.

And then I had this, obviously, there’s a much bigger conversation around that, which is around accessibility and people who have disability or people who are homeless, we started to talk about all of these audiences who might just miss out on live music altogether. I think it came from I’d seen this film about Leonard Cohen and how he used to go into the prisons and play for people, play live for people. I had this idea that we could try and create, a really beautiful high-quality online concert and show people, who live regionally or are disabled or pregnant or have social anxiety, that they could still access music that way and live music that way. Which I think is something that the pandemic opened up in terms of accessibility, with the Melbourne comedy festivals on at the moment. And I’ve noticed that you can buy an online ticket for that now, which was never a thing in the past.

MARK: Right. It sounds like that gave you, and, obviously, the wider industry, the opportunity to reflect on things like that, that might have been seen as nice to have or something that we’d either hadn’t thought about or hadn’t quite got around to before.

CHARLOTTE: Yeah. And I think that also people assumed it was quite a costly thing to do. And then musicians realized that they could really just, with one decent microphone, they could record content from their homes, from their bedrooms, and their audiences were responding to that.

MARK: That’s quite a discovery, isn’t it?

CHARLOTTE: Yeah, I think that leads into a lot of people upskilling themselves is something that I observed from the outside. A lot of musicians were upskilling themselves during the pandemic, which anything that can allow a musician to be more creatively free is for the best. To not have to be stuck with a particular producer or a particular studio and to actually learn how to record parts at home and mix their own music, I think, was really beneficial. But that was, one of very few things that came out of the pandemic that probably was beneficial to a creative person or, in this case, a musician. Well, really what happened was we watched our industry just get almost completely decimated.

MARK: Yes. We are looking for silver linings and slivers of hope. That is one. But I mean the big picture, and for the music industry in particular, it was really one of the ones that was worst affected by all of this.

CHARLOTTE: Yeah. I did an interview really early on with a London-based journalist named William Ralston, who was doing a piece on the music industry globally, and he was asking how it affected me as a freelance manager with independent artists. And what the article presents to you is that, without the live music revenue stream, some artists are not left with any cash flow. If an artist doesn’t have cash flow, the manager usually works on a commission basis, so, the manager doesn’t have cash flow either. And that’s what I watched, sadly, happen is a lot of managers and artists going, dipping back into those corporate jobs to stay afloat.

MARK: I think we’ve established you and your musicians did not have your challenges to seek. The big picture was horrific and there’s no sugar coating there.

Where did you go next? What was your response about where you could be most effective?

CHARLOTTE: I think one of the blessings of having more time was that I would often receive emails from people who would say, ‘Can we catch up for a coffee? I wanted to pick your brain. I’ve got a few questions about my music.’ This would come from artists who were generally self-managed and didn’t have a team but often really, really talented. We were talking about, when I started out, that was something that I did. I fulfilled, every time anyone asked me, ‘Could I have a coffee?’ or, ‘Can we catch up for a drink?’ or anything, I would say, ‘Yeah, let’s do that.’ I had a real yes-person mentality. And then because touring and traveling was eating up so much of my time, there’s a little bit of guilt that I had, not that I owe anything to anyone, but sometimes I would’ve loved to have been able to sit down and have lunch with someone and brainstorm how to release their music. And I wasn’t able to do that.

Then, when the pandemic hit, I found myself with a lot more time and I was able to offer those services in a mentoring or consulting capacity. It started off with me just saying, ‘I’ve got a couple of hours on a Friday afternoon.’ I think I might just offer that to the first person that I started to work with was a manager, he was actually my assistant and he helped with all of the logistics for the live shows. And then, suddenly, I didn’t have a job for him anymore. But he’s also a manager himself and he’s a really talented manager. I said to him like, ‘I don’t really have any work for you, but do you want to do some mentoring? Like, maybe every Friday we can get together for an hour and we can talk about your business? It wasn’t something that I had any help with, when I was at that point in my career, and I think it would’ve really helped me to have someone to bounce ideas with.’

That’s where it began. And through doing that once a week on Zoom talking about his business plan and his ideas and whatnot led me to going, ‘I might just make this actually a bit more of a formal offer.’ Which I didn’t really formalize in any way, I guess I just told a few people and then word spread around and it was just like, I was I started offering these consultancy sessions. Then I created a mentor program for an emerging artist, which was amazing. I worked with an artist named Julia Wallace, who’s based in Western Australia, on releasing their music for the first time.

That was really creative and it made me realize why I started doing it in the first place was to help artists facilitate a career for an artist where they could, it sounds a bit clichéd, but bring out their best selves, learn about who they are as people. Do they need a big team around them or are they better off to release independently? Or are they someone who needs assistance with visuals? Or do they know how to draw pictures themselves and could it be a bit more of a DIY thing? It became a really, really creative pursuit, talking to a lot of independent self-managed artists. Which led me to thinking that there really should be a new model of management where you don’t have to commit to someone for X amount of years and sign contracts and whatnot. Some of these people just needed another person to bounce ideas off.

MARK: Maybe for someone who hasn’t done mentoring before, could you just talk a little bit about what you actually cover in these sessions, what the conversations are about, maybe how it’s different to what you were doing as a manager?

CHARLOTTE: Yeah, absolutely. As a manager, it’s a really all-encompassing role. You are invested in every single part of that person’s career and, also their lives, in a sense, because you need to get to know someone quite well to understand how they operate in different environments. Whether that be like promotional or interviews or, backstage, or whatever that might be.

These mentoring sessions that I was offering were one-hour sessions that always began from a strategic place. From my perspective, that’s what I love the most is talking to someone and saying, ‘What is it that you want out of your career? What are your goals? What drives you? What gives you that spark that we talked about before, that passion?’ And how can I help them form a team, how can I help them find like-minded people who might love their music but also gel with them personally, who are the publicists I can introduce them to or labels I can introduce them to.

With every session, whether it was more of a mentoring role or a consulting role, it would be me answering questions, industry questions. There’s not a lot of resources out there to help new artists about how all the different roles interact and what they actually need on their team or how payment works if you do get a manager, those sorts of questions. And then, also, just giving advice about their music. I don’t mean that in a musically-creative way, I wasn’t doing any like, ‘Oh, the piano should be turned down at first to… ’ I don’t really operate like that, it was more, maybe introducing them to the right producers or, people who I thought they might gel with.

I ended up doing this mentoring with both artists and managers because I felt like, we were so close to losing a whole generation of new managers because there was just no way for them to get these projects off the ground without live shows or it was really difficult for them. With some of the ongoing ones, the mentoring and consulting resulted in me creating strategies for them. Whether that be a 6-month strategy or a 12-month strategy or a 2-to-3-year strategy, it was almost like doing like a research project or something, take all of the commonalities from every interview and consolidate it into a document to go, ‘This is what I think you want and this is how I think you can achieve it.’

MARK: It sounds to me, Charlotte, like you’re someone who is really motivated to help people.

CHARLOTTE: Definitely.

MARK: And, your instinct was, way back, was to look at a band and think, ‘They need help connecting with an audience.’ In the middle of the pandemic, I’m hearing you looking at, ‘What do people need? What would be helpful that I can do for them?’ now that, as you say, their main identity has been stripped away. And you’re even looking to the health of the management industry and saying, ‘We’re in danger of losing this generation.’

How sustaining was this for you personally, just feeling useful, feeling helpful in the midst of so much chaos?

CHARLOTTE: I definitely think that there’s an element of feeling good about being able to use my skill set at the time to help other people. I think that, at times, I felt a little bit burnt out and I think most managers, a lot of people in music in general, would say this, the opportunities for new musicians just decreasing so quickly. It started out quite hopeful and then you start speaking to record labels and they go, ‘I absolutely love this band that you’ve sent me but we’ve got a backlog from 2020 who are waiting to release music and we’re not signing anyone new at the moment.’

It started out feeling like, ‘This is great, I’m using my skill set,’ and then eventually, at times, has felt a little bit helpless and I’ve had to explain that this is new territory for all of us and these are the things that we can focus on. And that might be making music and making really good music or creating all of the content that surrounds a release but it doesn’t necessarily mean that a label is going to sign you this year.

MARK: Looking at the big picture again, we can all agree it would’ve been better if this thing had never happened, and particularly with the impact it’s had on music and other performing arts.

But picking up on the idea, looking for the little slivers of comfort, the flashes of silver lining for instance, the upskilling you mentioned earlier on, as we, hopefully, look to a more open future where live gigs are more of a thing again and the industry picks up, what, if anything, do you think that musicians and the industry, as a whole, can take forward?

What new options are there that maybe weren’t there before?

CHARLOTTE: I think one new option that I’ve identified amongst managers and musicians are these new ways of working together. Like I said before, the management model is, generally, quite long-term contracts. I noticed that a lot of other managers did what I did and they started offering their skills on a consulting basis, which I think has empowered artists. That’s where my drive came from from the very beginning was to find ways to empower creative people to be able to upskill themselves to understand the industry that they work in and how it operates. Because, it’s an age old saying that knowledge is power but I think, when the music industry was moving so so quickly, often artists didn’t even know what positions they were getting themselves into.

And, within my roster, I was always very, very conscious of making sure everybody fully understood the terms of the deals that they, might be getting into, which were often very artist-friendly flexible deals. But I know a lot of friends, there was this sense of urgency before the pandemic. A lot of friends who were artists would sign to the first manager they met or the first booking agent they met or the first record label they met. And then, if it doesn’t go well, often that’s enough to deter someone from working in the industry altogether. Which is, sadly, something that I’ve seen happen more often than not to young women than young men. In my experience of talking to people, it seems to be really, really common that young women get burnt quite young and then decide to put down music forever, or they come back to it years and years later.

What I think the pandemic taught us by slowing everything down was to take a good look at the revenue streams, for one, and ask ourselves, ‘Why is it that, when gigs stop, there might not be any cash flow?’ Well, obviously, that’s a much bigger conversation around the streaming model. I know a lot of people who invested a lot more in buying vinyls and buying merch to try and keep their favorite artists afloat during that time. But it’s made us, like myself and, Ainsley, for example, who’s Ainsley Wills, an artist that I manage, it’s made us reflect on different ways that we can release music in the future so that we’re not so reliant on touring and live shows.

I think, in general, with the consulting model, I’ve seen people just make more informed patient decisions as opposed to what I explained before, the example of rushing into working with the first person that they’ve met. It allowed a bit more time for everyone to have meetings over Zoom or get to know each other and make really strategic careful decisions with their careers, which I think is a really good thing.

MARK: Well, amen to that. As a coach, this is a huge part of what I do is just get people to stop and slow down. It’s not like I’m telling them what to do but just giving them a chance to really think through what the decision is, what their reasons are for going one way or the other, and making that well-considered decision. That’s an interesting take on it, the fact that, slowing down, it was a pretty frenetic industry.

Obviously, there’s an energy to that that we never want to lose from music but maybe you could balance that with a bit more downtime and slowing down to think things through.

CHARLOTTE: I definitely agree that, there’s an energy and there’s a sense of ego that needs to go into a performance or a song. But then there is sometimes an energy sense of ego behind the scenes in what we refer to as the industry itself, which is quite toxic. From my own personal experience, the biggest thing that I learned when I found myself mentoring and consulting with very like-minded people was that, possibly, in the past, I was finding myself in situations with people who I didn’t actually share the same values as. When you said before, ‘You seem like you’re driven by helping people,’ I’ve noticed that that’s quite common in managers, within music. Quite difficult to find in other realms of the industry at times. Not to say that, there is no one who’s driven by helping people but often, sadly, people are driven by money or exploiting artists.

That’s something that we saw during the pandemic within our very geographically small part of the world, there was a huge takedown of the music industry during the pandemic. Basically, Australia had its #MeToo moment during the quiet times, and a lot of people at the top lost their positions due to musicians and whatnot coming forward and sharing their stories about toxicity.

MARK: A bit of a day of reckoning for the industry?

CHARLOTTE: Yeah, which I think had to happen. It was sad that it happened at such a difficult time as well because, for some people, they were just overwhelmed with, ‘I’ve lost all the good things about music and about my career and now I’m daily receiving information about these terrible terrible people that work behind the scenes in music.’ I was partly driven by that as well to show people there are caring and compassionate people who work behind the scenes as well, which are most of my friends in the music industry are those people. Unfortunately, I think there was an older generation that didn’t operate like that.

MARK: Let us hope that that spirit is carried forward into the future of the industry.

Charlotte, thank you. You’ve really taken us on quite an extraordinary journey, pre and during pandemic. Hopefully, we’re moving to post pandemic before too long. This would be I think a nice time for you to share your Creative Challenge with our listener.

If you’re listening to this and this is your first time with the show, this is the point in the interview where I ask my guest to set you, dear listener, a Creative Challenge. This is something that is related to the theme of the interview and is designed to stretch you creatively, personally, maybe even professionally as well, and something that you can do or get going on within seven days of listening to this conversation.

Charlotte, what’s your Creative Challenge?

CHARLOTTE: This was one of the benefits of everything slowing down. I had a lot more time to talk philosophically with one of my clients, Ainsley Wills, who is an amazing musician but also one of the most creative people I know. She said to me, it’s such a simple task, but she said to me, don’t overthink this too much, but, ‘When we hang up, you have to do this task where you write down on a piece of paper what makes me feel the most me. And then, underneath that, just stream of consciousness. Write the things that make you feel the most you.’

MARK: Ha… I love that, that’s so simple. And yet, well, it’s got me thinking already. I think, obviously, I always do the creative challenges, but particularly this one I think is definitely something that I want to go in. What a lovely question.

CHARLOTTE: It was also really interesting because I tasked a few of my friends with it as well. I’ll give an example of something that ended up on my list. I wrote down swimming. And if you asked me, at that point in time, when was the last time I went swimming, it was probably a couple of years. It’s like, ‘Why aren’t we doing these things more often?’

MARK: Yes, very good, very good question. There’s quite a lot of implications of this I think that I’m sure there will be creative benefits. Because, when we are most ourselves, as you were saying, that’s what we value the most in artists, not to mention personal benefits. I think I’d rather not go and talk too much about that because that will be a side effect of the main thing, which is just being you, being yourself. Lovely, thank you so much for that, Charlotte.

Where can people go to find you online? And I’m curious, are you still offering the mentoring service, is that available?

CHARLOTTE: I’m quite booked up at the moment but I do have a website which has all of the details on there, which is just www.hearheargroup.com, which is H-E-A-R-H-E-A-R, Group.

MARK: Hear Hear Group, that’s lovely.

CHARLOTTE: That’s the one.

MARK: dot com. Okay.

CHARLOTTE: Yes. I’m also not overly active but I’m on Instagram and I do share some updates on there; instagram.com/charlotteabroms, which is A-B-R-O-M-S.

MARK: Brilliant. I will, obviously, make sure that these links are in the show notes, as usual. Charlotte, thank you so much, it’s been really inspiring. And, as I was saying earlier on, I really wanted to cover the music industry because it’s been so hard hit. I really think you’ve told an inspiring story in very difficult circumstances. Thank you very much for that.

CHARLOTTE: Thank you so much for having me, Mark. It’s been great to chat to you.

Each episode of The 21st Century Creative podcast features an interview with an outstanding creator in the arts or creative industries.

At the end of the interview, I ask my guest to set you a Creative Challenge that will help you put the ideas from the interview in to practice in your own work.

And in the first part of the show, I share insights and practical guidance based on my experience of coaching creatives like you since 1996.

If you’d like my help applying the ideas from the show to your own situation you are welcome to join us in the 21st Century Member’s Group.

This will give you access to Goal-setting, Accountability and Q&A videos, as well as other exclusive insights and glimpses behind the scenes of the show. Due to the pandemic, membership is currently on a pay-what-you-want basis.

Your membership fee will also support the podcast and help to make it sustainable.

Become a Patron!

Make sure you receive every episode of The 21st Century Creative by subscribing:

The post Helping Musicians Through Lockdown with Charlotte Abroms appeared first on Creative Coach | Mark McGuinness | Since 1996.

• From Tattoos to NFTs with Ichi Hatano
• Creative Disruption: How 12 Creatives on 5 Continents Rose to the Challenge of the Pandemic
• Mark’s Pandemic: Poetry, Podcasting and Pressure

Welcome to Episode 5 of the CREATIVE DISRUPTION season of The 21st Century Creative, where we are hearing stories of creatives around the world who came up with a creative response to the challenges of the pandemic.

Today we are going to look at one of the biggest challenge for many people during lockdown, whether or not they were creatives, and that is: parenting.

Kay Lock Kolp is a coach and podcaster with many years experience of helping parents to be better parents, and also to take better care of themselves.

In today’s interview Kay shares her practical wisdom on how to stay creative as a parent (and yes that title does have a double meaning) even during lockdown and the other stresses and strains of the pandemic.

In the intro to the show I introduce Mami McGuinness, my wife and also my business partner here at The 21st Century Creative. We talk about her work as a writer and coach, and she has a special message for the Japanese speakers in the audience.

Kay Lock Kolp is a coach, podcaster, artist and author, with many years’ experience of helping creatives navigate the competing demands of parenting and work.

She lives in Massachusetts, USA, with her husband, sons, and the family‘s twelve-and-a-half-year-old pet chicken. Via her coaching and her podcast, Practical Intuition with Kay, she offers support for ‘grown-ups and our inner lives’.

So it was already in my mind to invite Kay onto The 21st Century Creative, to answer questions on the theme of How to Stay Creative as a Parent. And then the pandemic struck, and many of us were plunged into lockdown and involuntary homeschooling, and it suddenly felt like all the reasons I had to invite Kay onto the show had multiplied and become even more urgent!

So I reached out to her and asked if she’d be up for doing the interview about parenting for creatives, with a special emphasis on the acute and increasingly chronic challenges of the pandemic. I’m delighted to say she accepted.

In the course of this interview she talks about her own experience of art and parenting, and about what she learned from homeschooling her children long before the pandemic arrived.

She also shares insights based on her work helping parents who face hard choices about where to put their time and attention on a daily basis.

And if you’re in a situation where the children are currently taking priority over your creative career, then you may be interested to hear Kay’s ideas about how to keep your creative flame alive, even if it’s not on a full-time basis.

Kay tackles the practical challenges of lockdown parenting and homeschooling, as well as psychological insights around self-care, permission, and what she calls ‘the inner life of parents’.

Throughout the interview you’ll hear Kay’s upbeat and resilient spirit, in the face of her own health challenges as well as parenting in general and the pandemic in particular. The attitude that prompted one of Kay’s clients to say that she helps people ‘knock the bricks off their wings and truly fly’.

More about Kay at her website: kaylockkolp.com.

MARK: Kay, how did you get started on your creative path?

KAY: Wow. I think I’ve been on this creative path since I was small. It is winter time right now as we’re recording, and some of my favorite memories of winter time are when you could go out and there would be a brook, for example, or a creek, or a pond, or something, and just at the edges, there would be these frozen bits of water, and you could press down on them and they would make these cool crackling noises. I always felt like I was in a dance with them. And I think that is really where it started for me.

In my childhood, there was always singing, and lots of joy and silliness. And there have been times in my life, I think, where that’s been stymied, that’s been stoppered, or someone has tried to put me in a box, or tell me to stay in my lane. But there’s something in me that wants to come out. And so, it’s funny because I’ve been thinking of myself recently as a creator, not necessarily as an artist, or a podcaster, or a writer because I’m all of those things.

MARK: Yeah.

KAY: I hope that’s okay to say. It started a long time ago for me, the idea of being creative.

MARK: How did that translate into career choices, work choices when you were older?

KAY: I love this question, and I’m seeing my career choices in a way that I really hadn’t before. I became a teacher. I wanted to become a teacher. But before that, I was enrolled in the School of Fine Art at the University of Connecticut, and I spent my freshmen year there for photography but when you do one, obviously there’s a lot of other fine arts classes that you need to take and electives and those sorts of things.

I did really well up until I took a drawing class. In that class, I was put into a box, basically and the box was, ‘You are not an artist. Go away. You are not an artist.’ And I was like, ‘Well these aren’t really my people anyway, I guess.’

MARK: Sorry, how were you getting that message?

KAY: Oh, well, because the teacher would hold up my work in front of the class and say, ‘Look at this lousy garbage.’

MARK: No!

KAY: ‘Look at this. Everybody do the opposite of this.’ It was rough.

MARK: Whoa. That was some garbage teaching, huh?

KAY: Yes, it really was. It really was. The creativity has come out of me in other ways in my personal life. There’s a quilt that I made years ago that’s right behind me. I’ve been a knitter. I’ve made really fun and beautiful landscape quilts. I’ve given myself permission to do that …but I’ve always said to myself, ‘Well you’re just not good at drawing, you’re not good at freestyle, freeform art.’ And it’s only in the last six months that I have invited that back into my life and given myself permission and said, ‘You know what? You get to define your worth. Not some jerk from when you were 19.’

I think it comes up because I was working at this wonderful place called the University of Connecticut Child Labs. And they were my people. I was like, ‘Oh, this is where I belong.’ I was especially drawn to child development, to human development, but especially child development, and the interaction between parents and kids, adults and kids has always been very fascinating for me. And to be able to take that into teaching was wonderful. For a while, I joyfully homeschooled our two sons. I recognized that we were so lucky to be able to do that. I know that’s not everybody’s path but I think even if you’re not homeschooling…and a lot more people are these days. Right, Mark, in the pandemic?

MARK: I was going to say, there’s been a lot of involuntary homeschooling going on in the last couple of years!

KAY: And there’s a lovely attitude that we can have about it which is, it has much more to do with what does our child need versus what is the school system saying we should do with them. I don’t know if that makes sense.

MARK: Yeah. So, you went into homeschooling?

KAY: Yes. And then when my oldest was 11, I got very sick with an intestinal disorder, and the antibiotics that I took to alleviate that have since been shown to have an ingredient in them that causes things like tendon rupture, tendon scarring.

MARK: Right.

KAY: About 10 and a half years ago now, I stepped into an unplanned adventure which was I lost the ability to walk more than a few steps. I needed a wheelchair when I left the house. And the worst of it was I lost hope because I wasn’t getting messages from my environment that something can change about this. And then about eight months in, I met someone who could change it and did change it. About 18 months after that, after I relearned how to walk and… I was able to ski, for example, again. I was able to run, I was able to do all the good, fun things.

MARK: Right, so that’s a pretty good indicator things are moving in the right direction, huh?

KAY: Yes. Then what happened was the tendon problems returned. They’ve never really gone away but I lost the ability to use my hands, my thumbs, my forearms. At the beginning there, for a long time, I had 5% use of my hands. I feel like this is where the beginning of the what I do now, where that really started because a friend of mine said, ‘Okay, you can’t do the usual home things that you love to do. You’re not cooking. You’re not folding laundry. You’re not doing any of that stuff. What can you do? You’ve got a lot of time. What can you do?’

I started to think about what I was good at. And what I was good at was helping parents and children thrive together and helping parents not be frazzled through my interactions with kids in the classroom and getting to know their parents. And so, I thought, ‘Well, I can do something with that.’ And obviously it’s a much longer story than that but that’s as simplified as I can make it, and that’s really brought me to where I am now.

MARK: For the purposes of today’s conversation, let’s make now maybe late 2019 before you-know-what happened. Tell me about the work that you had evolved, the business that you had evolved. What life and work were like at that point?

KAY: I had a podcast for parents of young children that was thriving and from that, I had built an online community for parents. People would log in and there would be courses there, and people could ask questions, and it was very fun. But I was way too invested in it. Then the pandemic happened, the you-know-who thing. I should say I loved my life at that point. I did have a lot of good time with my family. I didn’t work 40 hours a week. It was less than that so I was able to be active and do things that I really wanted to do. But I wasn’t living a really authentic life quite yet, I would say.

MARK: Okay. What things were you helping parents with?

KAY: I was helping parents with things like going from spanking to a more empathy-centered style of parenting where a child feels really seen and cared for, and it’s much gentler, it’s much more fun. So, I was helping with things like that, things like potty-training which is along in the same vein because we can come down really hard on a kid who’s just wet the bed or we can help them understand that it’s really okay. And we can try again tomorrow. Those sorts of things. Really situational, ‘This happened, what do I do now,’ things.

MARK: Okay, so really practical…

KAY: Yes.

MARK: Would you call it coaching, mentoring, teaching?

KAY: I would probably call it a mix of coaching and teaching.

MARK: One reason I’ve been meaning to invite you on the show for a while, Kay, is that every so often I get an email from a listener who says to me, ‘I really loved episode so and so and it’s really great, Mark, but I can’t help thinking…it’s all very well but what if you have kids? It’s not so easy to focus, it’s not so easy to block out the day, it’s not so easy to be productive. It’s so easy to feel that actually I’m not making any progress as a creative, as an artist.’

Did you ever find yourself faced with that question from the creatives in your community?

KAY: Oh, God, yes. And that was one of my favorite ways to be helpful was to help people see that you don’t have to just twist in the wind. There are things we can do here. But I really appreciate what you’re saying. Especially for someone; you’ll have a day planned and then you’ll get a call from a teacher or in 2019, you’d get a call from a teacher and you’d have to go handle something or do something or deal with something. And it would wreck your whole day. And you would feel like, ‘What’s the damn point? What am I doing here?’ You can get so easily interrupted.

One of the things I was able to be helpful with was people would come to believe that what was going on with their child mattered more. This is not for emergencies, but on a daily basis; the drama that was unfolding in their child’s life was much more important than their own feelings of wellness, or happiness, or contentment, or fulfilment, or joy. And it can just feel such a treadmill that you can’t get off of. And to help people know that they can and then take steps to do it is so cool.

MARK: And even maybe without dramas, taking kids of out of school, particularly when they’re young, they’re really young and they’re small, and they’re home all the time, and they want attention all the time, I know how frustrating that can be. Just for context, we had twins. And suddenly, my well-ordered productivity routine just went out the window for a few months. It took quite a long time before Mami and I managed to get any semblance of a structure back in place where we each had some space. And I know from talking to clients, quite often one parent will end up doing more of this than another, or obviously if you’re a single parent, it’s really hard to get relief. What things did you find yourself saying to a creator who’s really frustrated? Obviously, they love their child. The child’s always going to come first in the moment because that’s nature. But who is feeling really down, frustrated about the lack of progress, the lack of focus in terms of their own creative work in their career.

What things were you saying to them?

KAY: It’s really interesting because the way that it presented was not so much, ‘I’m experiencing these feelings of loneness in my own creative career.’ It was really much more of like, ‘I’ve had to put all that on hold. I can’t do that because all of my focus needs to be on my child.’ And so many times when they would come to understand that actually putting all your focus on the child is detrimental to both the child and to us…even though that sounds really counterproductive or counterintuitive but then, once they started to realize like, ‘I do not have to be organizing their lives all the time.’ By the way, when I say them, I do mean me. I don’t come by this work without some of my own helicopter parenting tendencies.

But the realization that your five-year-old isn’t going to spontaneously…and this is not in every single case but you can take steps to make sure that they’re safe while you are doing something creative. You can take steps. You don’t have to just go with their whim. In fact, it’s much more dangerous to go with their whim because then they don’t have a good sense of safety or security.

Julie Lythcott-Haims is a really wonderful writer and woman who talks about parenting, and she gives a TED Talk and she has said that basically the basis for that TED Talk is that kids need two things. They need love and they need to be assigned chores. I always loved that.

MARK: Oh, okay, great. Maybe my kids should watch that one! But seriously, I’ll make sure we can get a link to that TED Talk in the show notes. We’ll put it in the transcript of the interview.

Okay. Kay, I’d like to back up a little bit to what you said because it is counterintuitive. You said that putting all your attention, putting all your focus on the child, and putting your own art career or any career, I’m guessing, completely on hold, it isn’t good for you or the child. Could you unpack that a little bit for us?

KAY: The first glimmering I had of this was in a book series that I read probably when the kids were five and one, or something like that. Even just taking time for fiction for me was like, ‘What? You’re doing what? You’re not concentrating on them because you’re reading? Oh, my gosh. what a crime.’ But I still did it and I can remember my mom doing it and I thought, ‘All right, I can do it. I’ve got good role modeling for this. I’ll do this.’

In those books, his name is JW Jackson, you watch him fall in love and get married on an island right near us called Martha’s Vineyard, and he and his wife eventually start having children, and they don’t stop their lives. If they want to go fishing and the tide’s coming in and it’s 4:00 a.m., they bundle their little baby up and they bring him to the water and that happens all over this child’s life, and then they have more kids. I remember thinking like, ‘Boy, that must be nice.’

From that glimmering of wanting to be able to do what I wanted to do, and have my children along with me or doing what they wanted to do themselves came the idea that that’s actually better for them, and it’s better for me because if I am…and I’m going to use a word that…I don’t mean it in an accusatory sense. But the micromanagement that we can do in our children’s lives, what we’re doing is we’re giving them the message, ‘I don’t trust you to make good decisions. I don’t trust you to choose something to play with, or choose someone to play with. Instead, I’m going to handle all this for you because I know best.’ And it takes my life energy and my continual questioning of what will be best for them and how do I arrange this, so that I can go to bed at night feeling like I’ve not done anything to fill up my own well, my own cup. And also there was always a vague, ‘But is this really what you ought to be doing for them?’ I hope that makes sense.

MARK: It does. And that phrase not filling up my own well, my own cup it’s so easy to do that, to think you’re doing the ‘right’ thing by giving everything to everyone else. But at certain point, I think you need to fill your own well up even if you’re only thinking in terms of for them because who are you going to be for them if you don’t find a way to do that.

KAY: Exactly. One of the joys, again, pre-pandemic, was a mom who had…we had really been working together on how is she speaking to the school, because she was getting these horrible messages from the school about her son’s behavior, and she would just get so upset and derailed. One of my favorite conversations we had was when she was like, ‘What I’m going to do now is I’m going to let him be at school and I’m going to pick up my paint brush.’ And I just thought, ‘Oh, so good.’

MARK: One thing I’m hearing is just giving yourself permission to do something for yourself.

KAY: Yeah.

MARK: I’m guessing whether that’s something artistic or even something else that, dare I say, may not even be work, or be seen as being important.

KAY: Yes.

MARK: Any other things that, say, somebody could keep a sense that their artistic practice is continuing and they’re still building some momentum in their career. Maybe it’s not going to be as full steam ahead as it was before the kids came along. But what could you say around that?

KAY: I would say think small is what I would say. Each six months I do a little planning document, and because I’ve recently given myself permission to draw again, I drew a little door on it and the doors open and the label on the door says, ‘Think small.’ And there’s magic sparkles coming out of the door and there’s lots of flowers and stuff around it. For me, what that means is take a tiny step. KJ Dell’Antonia, who has a wonderful podcast with her friend, Jessica Lahey called ‘Am Writing,’ #AmWriting. They talk about even if you can’t do anything else, open the document. Chances are good that if you open the document, you will find a little time to write a sentence or something like that. But even if you don’t, at least you opened the document.

And I have found that 10 minutes of drawing, 10 minutes of writing, 5 minutes of those things, a sentence to keep yourself. I think we have this idea that we need a week in a castle where we’re completely isolated and by ourselves. I totally have that fantasy. But in a daily situation, that’s not that’s not the reality. What is in our control? It is to take an action, even if it’s a tiny action and just make a stroke of drawing. I once did a pastel painting and I gave myself permission because it felt more like coloring than it did like freeform drawing. But anyway, it took me two years because it was when my hands were not as good as they are now. And I could only do a few minutes a day of this. I didn’t have the stamina or the hand strength to do more. But I felt like an artist because I did what I could do.

MARK: Right. Because you are still doing something. I found this loads of times in my own life and also working with clients. Just a small thing every day that you do for yourself because today’s the day that I lived or I got something too.

KAY: Yes.

MARK: It doesn’t need to be as much as the energy and attention you’re giving to the child for it to have a big effect.

KAY: Yeah.

MARK: One thing actually I’m finding out this year is that you’ve reminded me of…this isn’t in relation to childcare directly but I recommitted to having a notebook. So, I got a nice notebook, and I’ve just been making sure I just carry it with me into the room that I’m in when I’m working or doing stuff around the house. And the amount of just little ideas, because the notebook’s there, I’m just jotting it down and I’m making a note, and then I’m going back to it and I know where to find that now. I’m capturing so much that when it is time to say write that idea up, that article or that podcast episode or whatever, I go and open the notebook and there’s gold dust in there. There’s all these little nuggets of stuff that I’ve captured.

KAY: Yeah.

MARK: In just odd little moments. And it’s a way of just thinking but capturing the thinking.

KAY: Yeah.

MARK: I’m not in a particularly time cramped situation from external circumstances but I could imagine if I were traveling or indeed had small children again, I think just the sense that I was capturing something that would be a seed for something in the future I think I’d find I can get a surprising amount in those little, tiny, little moments in the day.

KAY: I love that you say that. It’s making me remember, I’ve heard of someone. I’ve not met this person or worked with this person but I’ve heard of someone who wrote a book in five-minute snatches with one hand. They’ve got the phone in one hand, they’re dictating into their phone. The other hand is holding their baby’s head as their baby is nursing. It’s about us. If we can overcome that resistance and say, ‘No, this is worth it. This minute, these few moments, I’m going to do this.’ And so much of it is about giving ourselves permission. So much of it is about saying like, ‘Even if nothing ever comes of it, it’s a worthwhile thing to do because it feels good and right in this moment and it’s making me feel like a creator.’

MARK: Absolutely.

KAY: Yeah.

MARK: Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So that’s where you were towards the end of 2019. You developed a really great way of teaching and helping parents. Like so many of us as coaches and teachers, you were helping them with them thing that you had struggled with. That’s certainly been a theme for my career.

When did you first become aware that this Covid thing was going to be serious, and was going to have an impact on your work, and on the lives of all these parents that you were helping?

KAY: I remember it so vividly. I live about, I don’t know, a couple of thousand miles away from my parents. They’re in the Colorado Rockies. And I think it was March 18th, I was visiting them with my son. At the time, he was 15, I think. We didn’t know if we were going to be able to come home. Everything was shutting down. It was such a scary and terrifying time. I’d just been invited to give an endorsement for a friend’s book that she had written. It’s called Coping Skills for Teens. It’s by a very good friend of mine named Janine Halloran, and she’s an amazing, amazing woman. She’s a licensed mental health counselor.

So, I’m reading this book about coping skills for teens and I’m out there in Colorado with my teen and we are both just beside ourselves with fear and anxiety. Physically, we felt safe. I know people who’ve been in so much worse situations in the pandemic, but we just felt so grateful to be able to come home. I can remember getting of the plane and getting the news that the Governor of Colorado had just announced that if you are coming from Colorado, you must quarantine for 14 days. And we’re in the car with my husband and so now does that mean he needs to quarantine for 14 days?

MARK: Right.

KAY: Our older son was not living at home at that point. So, I couldn’t see him. I couldn’t hug him. He would bring us groceries and put them at one end of the garage, and we’d go in at the other end, and wave, and say thank you and it was just terrifying. One of the first things that I did was I put together a little online free virtual summit called ‘Okay Con 2020.’ In doing of that, I got to talk to so many parenting experts that had come on my show that had become friends. I think I did 10 interviews in 10 days. And every time I did an interview, I would feel so good because here was someone else experiencing what I was experiencing. Here’s them giving their best advice on handling money right now, on finding a job, you name it. It was amazing.

MARK: Yeah.

KAY: That was so helpful and I realized that there are some themes here. One of the themes is even if we’re stuck at home, we don’t have to be isolated. We don’t have to be any more isolated than we want to be as long as we’ve got a phone or something like that. And every time I took steps to help somebody else, I felt better. So that really was the theme, I would say, through most of the pandemic. What happened after 10 or so months of that was, I got diverticulitis again which I hadn’t had in 9 and a half years because I had been so busy filling everybody else’s cup that I completely left my own health in the dust. So, the pandemic has been a really interesting crucible for selfcare.

MARK: What did you learn from that?

KAY: I have this memory of lying in the hospital and because you’re not having visitors. No one’s visiting you in Covid. It was such a tense time but I felt very cared for and I was starting to feel better, and I remember lying there and saying, ‘You’ve got to close your community. You can’t do this anymore. You’ve got to come first or else you’re going to die.’ I remember having these very, very stark feelings and then thinking, ‘But how can I do that? I’ll be letting them down. I don’t know how to do that.’ When I brought that to them once I was on the mend, they were so gracious and wonderful and they said things like, ‘Thank you for being a good example of taking care of yourself. I 100% respect your decision.’ And that was where I started to think, ‘I’ve got to approach this differently or I’m not going to make it through the pandemic.’

MARK: Before we get onto how you then approach that differently, could you say something about the issues that you were seeing from parents as the pandemic, first of all, hit and then it became apparent that this wasn’t going to be over within a few weeks? We were in it for the long haul. What issues were you hearing about?

KAY: I really appreciate this question. They were going through basically what I was going through, which is everyone is pouring from an empty cup. No one knows what’s going to happen next. So what do we do? This is information. If we can try and take it out of the realm of panicking and instead see it as like, ‘Okay, this is actually the facts on the ground. This is what is happening.’ A lot of it was really focused on, I would say, two things. One is helping our kids and helping helping them name emotions instead of trying to push them away because people were feeling so much more emotions. I don’t think that’s necessarily true. It’s just that suddenly the zeitgeist was just full of rage and fear and you couldn’t get away from it unless you could recognize that, and recognizing any emotion is the first step towards being able to move beyond it.

So part of it was that and part of it was a real sense of time management. Often, I find with clients that they’re super stressed out, they’re working many hours. I work with folks who some of them are single parents, which makes things even more complicated. And they have young children, for example, and young children need stimulation and activity and it can be so incredibly difficult for them. So, if someone needs to be isolated on a conference call or even just spend that time working. If they’re in a situation where they’re alone at home with a young child, especially but this can be on up into older children as well, it can feel really hard and awful and parents can just not know what to do.

Something that I have found that’s worked really, really well with clients. Well, I suppose the first thing that I found that’s worked really, really well is for someone to give themselves permission to say, ‘You know what? There is something I can do about this, maybe I don’t know what it is yet.’ But to be able to ask the question, ‘What can I do instead of shutting down and being stressed?’ Something that’s worked really, really well is a simple…it sounds so simple, a simple timer where you might, for example, have a timer that you set for…and there’s a little bit of lead up you don’t want to do this on the five minutes before your big meeting or your conference call or whatever.

To be able to set that timer for three minutes, just as an example and to say to your child, ‘Mama’s going to work.’ I say mama, it can, of course, it can be mum or dad. ‘I’m going to go off and do my work. And while I’m doing that, you get to be out here and you get to play with the trains or you get to you get to stay out here. And when the timer goes off, I’m going to come back and we’re going to play together.’ Then you are spending some time playing with your child when that timer goes off so they’re feeling that bond, and you are starting to establish a boundary. And the beautiful thing is that you can expand that. I’ve worked with people with very young children, very energetic children who have been able to expand to maybe it’s 30 minutes when that timer goes off and they can come out and reconnect and have a lovely bonding five minutes with their child and then back they go for half an hour. And in the meantime, their child is exploring their world in ways that are safe and not plunked in front of the television.

MARK: I’m hearing a theme that I know from listening to your podcast and other conversations with you that I think really key to your approach as I understand it is just looking for that chink of possibility and saying, ‘Look, there is something in here that can be done, however small, and that thing can then grow.’

KAY: Yes.

MARK: Kay, I’d like to pick up on the thread from a bit earlier on where you talked about, for you, homeschooling was a decision that you took quite a long time ago as a positive decision, as something you really wanted to do that you felt it was a better option than was available in the usual schooling system. But as we said, a lot of us have been through the process of involuntary homeschooling over the last couple of years in various versions and phases of lockdown.

What have you been sharing with parents who thought, ‘I would never have to do this. I thought that the school would take care of all of this, and now it’s devolved onto me.’ What advice have you been giving them?

KAY: I’ve worked with people who are like, ‘I never wanted this. I never wanted this. I love my child but this is not a responsibility that I signed up for.’ I think really the first part of it is working through those feelings because we can have those feelings, and then we can feel so guilty because we have them.

MARK: Yeah.

KAY: I think being able to say, again, ‘Okay, taking emotion out of it, these are the facts on the ground. How can we make this work for us?’ And I mean, God, I’ve known parents who got a lot out of sitting right next to their child. They’re coloring while their child is doing social studies or whatever, and it really worked for both of them. And I wanted to say too my work started out to be with preschoolers and very, very young children but I used to say my license ended at third grade or age nine. And I was like, ‘Okay, I’ve now got a 10-year-old child. what do I do here?’

MARK: Right.

KAY: What I’ve noticed is that they’re still the same child. we don’t suddenly get another kid when they’re an adolescent. There’s changes of course. But they’re still the same kid.

MARK: Yeah.

KAY: But they have different needs. For example, I remember working with one woman who said to her daughter who was really struggling with the online schooling, she said to her daughter, ‘You know what? You can have the video. I’m going to write to your teacher and say that if you want the video off, you can have it off.’ And then her daughter was able to learn while building dollhouse structures out of cardboard, out of paint. She’d build these beautiful things and she would still know the lesson. That helped her take it in in a way that worked better for her.

I think I’m going to always suggest and I have always suggested that working with a teacher, coming from a very cynical place, I think cynicism is a real symptom of burnout and there’s so much burnout in this. But if we can get beyond that cynical place and say, ‘I’m going to talk to my teacher about this. I’m going to talk to my child’s teacher about this. This is something that needs to be addressed.’ I’ve worked through that with so many parents of like, ‘But they’re saying this.’ Was it a person who said that or was it a newsletter? How is this coming to you? Can something be individualised?

MARK: Who is ‘they’?

KAY: Exactly. I think everything comes back to the emotions and the socioemotional piece of our children is overarching and this is my opinion. There can’t be any learning until that is addressed. And so, when we get into adolescence, we get into older kids, highschoolers have had it, in my opinion, again, worse than anyone because things are already hard when you’re 15, 16, 17, but it’s so much harder. My memories of being that age are sitting on a sofa with six other friends and singing our guts out together and just laughing and you can’t do that now. How do you keep going when you can’t? As they get older, I feel like it’s a lot more about saying to them like, ‘What do you need here? How can I be a support for you?’ Because we think we know what they want or need. And oftentimes we do but if we say it that way to them, ‘You need this,’ they don’t hear that.

MARK: We’ve been focused, if you like, on the really hard end of things like homeschooling during lockdown, and managing the calendar so you can actually get your work done. But just thinking about the impact of the pandemic more broadly and maybe even opening the door to some positive possibilities and options, what trends are you seeing among the parents that you talk to? I guess where I’m coming from is my wish, when all of this started, was, ‘I hope we all come out of this with more choices than we went in.’

I’d love to hear about any choices that you’re seeing that parents now have that maybe they didn’t feel they had before.

KAY: Oh, I love this. It really is reflective of where I am in my creative life and my professional life, as well as the people that I work with and what they’re seeing in their lives and that is, I would say, they now know that they can choose. I think in a lot of us, a coaching friend of mine has said it that, ‘There’s a dormant ‘Don’t fuck with me’ inside of us.’ And that has come out now.

MARK: Yeah.

KAY: The people I am working with, and again, even for myself you don’t get to mess with me. I’m the one who gets to decide. You don’t get to decide for myself or my children.

MARK: Yeah.

KAY: And I do see that as an incredible positive because what’s happening is we are ordering our lives the way that we want them.

MARK: Okay, so, Kay, can I pick up on another thread from earlier on which was when, on your own journey, you talked about that big decision to close your community. What did you then move into doing? What was the next phase of your work about?

KAY: One-on-one coaching is what I do, one to one. That’s really the only way that I work, although I have a newsletter a group of subscribers to my newsletter and I write to them each week. And I share a piece of art more or less every week that I’ve been working on, a story behind it, like, your poetry podcast came up in my newsletter.

MARK: That was really nice of you. Thank you.

KAY: It really fit in with something, you helped me work through something that I had been thinking about. It’s such a great show. Each month I share one month of my playbook of days so that people can print it and enjoy it and use it. We have a once-a-month complementary meetup where everyone in the newsletter gets this link. And you can come and spend an hour together and this past month what we did was we talked about our word of the year for 2022. I’m in community in that way. It’s not that I’ve completely isolated myself. But what I love to do is be in conversation with people. And so, the one-to-one coaching has become a much bigger part of my life. And it’s evolved. I love it.

MARK: Are you working mainly with parents these days?

KAY: I am. Actually, as it turns out. I like to think that what we do is we work on the inner lives of parents. Very often it’s a transition time for them. So at least one client I’m working with right now they’ve just become an empty nester. So, what is that like? And what do they do now? But others, sometimes sometimes temper tantrums come up as they come up in our lives. But very often what we talk about is what’s going on with them inside, how are they feeling, what are they doing, and what could make it better. Do you know what I mean?

MARK: Yeah.

KAY: It’s building their future, and I think the by-product of that that we’ve seen is that they’re now an amazing role model for their kids.

MARK: Right. This is another reason really for not ‘giving everything’ to the kid because what are you teaching them about is what it’s like to be a parent. What will they internalize and grow up with? And you’re setting them up for a lot of guilt and pressure. I love this phrase, the inner life of parents because you think about all the books on parenting and the advice, understandably, there’s an awful lot of outer focus stuff because by definition a parent is outer focused. There’s a lot of hands-on practical skills to be learned.

KAY: Yep.

MARK: I love that phrase, though, the inner life of parents is something that could be neglected and often is. So, it’s great that you’re there nurturing it, Kay.

KAY: I appreciate that.

MARK: Kay, I think this would be a good time for your Creative Challenge. If you are listening to the show and this is the first time, then this is the point of the interview where I ask my guest to set you, the listener, a Creative Challenge, which is something that will stretch you creatively and probably as a person as well, and it’s something that you can do or at least get started on within seven days of listening to the interview. And it obviously will be on the theme of the interview.

Kay, what is your Creative Challenge?

KAY: I just want to say how excited I am to be able to be the setter of the challenge. I’ve done so many of these challenges, Mark, over the years and this feels really, really exciting. So, when I reflected, really what I came up with was something that was a huge challenge for me but that has been such a gamechanger for me, and I would like to invite our listeners to give it a try. And it is this. As a part of your bedtime routine for the next seven nights…this is within a week.

MARK: Yeah.

KAY: Each of the next seven nights, take a few moments to look at yourself in the mirror. Smile if you can. I know sometimes we don’t feel like smiling at ourselves but if you can, that’s a part of this. And just take a few moments to talk to yourself and out loud, audibly tell yourself good things that happened today. Tell yourself about the things that were a joy in your day, or if you can’t find any joys because sometimes it’s that, give yourself a little hug in the mirror and just tell yourself that good things are ahead, and that you can access them, and that they are here for you. And I would invite you to end each night by saying, ‘Good night. I love you. And I’ll talk to you tomorrow night.’

MARK: Oh, how lovely.

KAY: As I say, do it for seven nights and if it feels good, keep doing it. I think I started seven nights five years ago and it felt so weird. But I used to say to my kids like, ‘You guys, you’re going to hear me probably talking to myself in the mirror.’ It’s one of the best things that I have done. In the tough times, it’s been a comfort and in the good times, it’s been a fun way to celebrate.

MARK: Great. Thank you, Kay. That’s a lovely challenge.

KAY: You’re welcome. I would really love to hear from those of you who try it. I’d really love to hear your experience with it.

MARK: Where should people go, Kay, to learn more about you and your approach, and if they’re at a point where they’re looking for some help, maybe get in touch and ask you for some help?

KAY: Well, thank you for asking. I am very excited. I’ve just started a new website. I’ve just moved from my old one to this new one. It is kaylockkolp.com.

MARK: Okay.

KAY: And there’s a contact page there where I would love to hear from folks. And there’s also kaylockkolp.com/weekly if somebody wants to subscribe to my newsletter, that is where they can do that. I’m just remembering, Mark, there’s one more aspect of this that I think is really important to highlight, if it’s okay.

MARK: Sure.

KAY: It’s part of the inner life of the parent. I think maybe of the coolest parts is the idea of being present instead of worrying about the future or regretting the past, but being here in this moment. And what’s very, very fun about that is we can do that for ourselves, be present for ourselves. We can also do it with our kids. And then that, to me, that’s where the fun really starts when you are present, fully present with your child, when you can be silly with them, and listen for their questions, and just be with them, that’s when things are the best. At least that’s how I feel.

MARK: That feels like a lovely place to end the conversation today. So, here’s to more moments of joyful presence, presence, joyful or otherwise with kids. Thank you very much, Kay. Like I say, this has been a really requested topic on the podcast and I’m so glad that we could get you to…with the expertise that I don’t have in this area…I’m a keen amateur when it comes to parenting. So, it’s been really great to get your more informed and professional perspective on it, so thank you very much.

KAY: You’re welcome. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Each episode of The 21st Century Creative podcast features an interview with an outstanding creator in the arts or creative industries.

At the end of the interview, I ask my guest to set you a Creative Challenge that will help you put the ideas from the interview in to practice in your own work.

And in the first part of the show, I share insights and practical guidance based on my experience of coaching creatives like you since 1996.

If you’d like my help applying the ideas from the show to your own situation you are welcome to join us in the 21st Century Member’s Group.

This will give you access to Goal-setting, Accountability and Q&A videos, as well as other exclusive insights and glimpses behind the scenes of the show. Due to the pandemic, membership is currently on a pay-what-you-want basis.

Your membership fee will also support the podcast and help to make it sustainable.

Become a Patron!

Make sure you receive every episode of The 21st Century Creative by subscribing:

The post Staying Creative as a Parent (Even in a Pandemic) with Kay Lock Kolp appeared first on Creative Coach | Mark McGuinness | Since 1996.

• Mark’s Pandemic: Poetry, Podcasting and Pressure
• Taking Deep Work Online with Laura Davis
• From Tattoos to NFTs with Ichi Hatano

Welcome to Episode 4 of the CREATIVE DISRUPTION season of The 21st Century Creative, where we are hearing stories of creatives around the world who came up with a creative response to the challenges of the pandemic.

Today we meet Amrita Kumar, the co-founder and CEO of Candid Marketing, an innovative marketing agency in India. Amrita had to confront a brutal situation, when she and her team were forbidden from carrying out their core business activities and she had to decide whether she could hold onto the team she had spent so much time building.

But in the midst of the crisis, she remembered the seeds of an idea that she had been wanting to launch for years, and decided that now was the time to go for it.

Listen to today’s interview for an extraordinary story of leadership under pressure, and of the birth of Amrita’s innovative new business, Mojo Box.

In the intro to the show, I reflect on passing the milestone recently of 25 years as a coach for creative professionals, what I have learned, and why coaching still feels fresh and exciting, even after all these years.

In the coaching segment, I argue that we should think of productivity in terms of projects, not tasks.

In October 2019 Amrita Kumar was celebrating becoming CEO of Candid Marketing, an innovative experiential marketing agency with offices in Bombay (aka Mumbai) and Delhi, in India.

It was the culmination of 21 years of work on the company she had co-founded with her partner Atul Nath. A moment to savour her success and look to the future. She was full of plans for 2020 and unaware of the impending pandemic, that would threaten the very existence of the business she had worked so hard to establish.

Over the course of 21+ years Amrita and Atul grew Candid into one of India’s most awarded Experiential Marketing agencies, named as the No. 1 Brand Activation Agency in the country by The Economic Times, with a team of over 120 staff and a client list including Bacardi, Cadbury, Disney, Coca-Cola, Vodafone, Dyson and Uber.

Candid’s strength is meeting consumers face-to-face, getting products into their hands and eliciting honest feedback. And of course, this is precisely the reason why the agency was vulnerable to the pandemic.

Because when Covid struck and India went into strict lockdown, Amrita and her team were forbidden from carrying out their core business activity – going out onto the streets to meet consumers in person.

In this interview Amrita tells me how she worked hard to establish Candid, and then had to rethink everything in the face of pandemic.

As a leader, she had to make some hard, and eventually excruciating choices, particularly around whether and how long she could afford to keep hold of her team.

But in the midst of the turmoil she came up with a creative solution to her problems, by launching an innovative new service that grew into a whole new business: Mojo Box.

Mojo Box is an online platform that helps consumers discover and experience new products before buying. They sign up via the website mojobox.online and for a small convenience fee they are sent Mojo Boxes, containing a range of new products to try.

The value of the products is far greater than the convenience fee, and Amrita’s members told her that the arrival of a new box was a moment of fun and discovery in the long lockdown days.

Amrita used Mojo Box to help her big brand clients reach new customers in spite of the restrictions – and in the process, she grew her membership numbers to 270,000 and kept her own business afloat during the pandemic. Now, she’s looking to the future with renewed optimism.

Interestingly, Amrita tells me in the interview that Mojo Box grew from the seeds of an idea she had had for years, but it took the pandemic disruption before conditions were right to test it for real.

This interview with Amrita is a great story of courage, leadership and innovation in the face of disaster. And also of the value of leaning into the future, and being ahead of the curve in your industry – because you never know when that innovative and risky-looking idea could turn out to be your safety net.

You can learn more about Candid Marketing at the website Candidmarketing.com and Instagram, and sign up for Mojobox (if you are in India!) at Mojobox.online and also follow Mojobox on Instagram.

MARK: Amrita, how did you get started on your creative path?

AMRITA: Actually, this whole journey of experiential marketing, creative experiential marketing and what it basically means is interactive, one on one, creative way of engaging brands with consumers genuinely happened by accident. I did my Master’s in Leeds. I actually then took on a job in London for a bit. And then there was a work permit fiasco. And because the company I was working for lost its funding and my work permit was attached to that company so I had to come back to India.

So when I came back to India, I started working for a dotcom. That was the whole dotcom bubble and there was a whole lot of funding going on and I started working for a gifting and E-greeting dotcom which was, I think, funded by the Rupert Murdoch company and all of that jazz. I basically had a very bad time. And I was extremely disillusioned with the whole working environment in India.

I was wondering what to do, should I look at ways to maybe leave Bombay again? And somebody I knew at that time told me to meet Atul, my business partner now, saying that, ‘He’s doing something different and why don’t you meet him?’ When I met him, I realized that he was doing something different. So when he started Candid, and he’s the one who actually started Candid in 2000, I joined two years after they started. When he started Candid in 2000, it was a very simple thing for him. He basically wanted to engage brands with consumers, but his one line thing was ‘anything which is not mass media’, as simple as that.

MARK: Oh, really?

AMRITA: Anything which is not mass media. So it could be literally a one on one sampling, standing on the road. So that was literally the one line brief of how we started Candid. I joined him two years later. And that’s how Candid happened to me. Over I think, what, it’s 2022, so that’s 20 years of Candid. And it’s been interesting because he and me are very complementary in nature.

Slowly I took over the creative and the client side of the business and he took over the financial and the whole running of the company, and then after I think ’19 I took over as the CEO of Candid from him because he was busy starting something else which, unfortunately also stopped due to Covid. But, as I said, I literally stumbled upon Candid because of meeting Atul. And then it was a matter of finding one’s legs in the kind of work and then making it your own because 20 years ago, nobody knew experiential marketing in India. We were literally the first in many, many things in India.

MARK: Right. I’m curious about what was the thinking behind ‘anything but mass media’ because these days that would seem a lot more obvious than it must have done then, right?

AMRITA: Exactly. I think the thinking behind that and I know because I joined the journey too was that the big agencies had advertising covered. You had the Ogilvies and Leo Burnett and also they had advertising covered and we felt, and that’s one of the reasons I connected with Candid is because I obviously did my thesis on this also, is that there is this whole need between advertising and the consumer. So, internally we used to say ‘air cover and field soldiers’. You need the air cover from advertising but you need the foot soldiers to go in toward enemy territory too.

So, that was the whole thinking that at the end of the day, mass media does not give you this tangible feel of the product and now it’s very easy for me to say, ‘Oh, it was all about discovery,’ but we never even thought about it as product discovery those days. It was just the need of putting the brand, putting the product in a consumer’s hand and they’re touching and feeling it and say, ‘Okay, this looks interesting. I want to try it.’

As I said, we did a lot of firsts. We did these mobile, massive trucks which we would convert them into these floats and we would have live demos and live stations. It’s crazy because now when I say these things to even people who work with me, they just look at me and say, ‘Oh, okay, either a big deal or, really, maybe she’s just lying about it because it sounds way ahead of its time.’ But we’ve done all of it. So it’s fun. It’s fun. I sometimes just go through old pictures and I wonder like, ‘Oh, my God.’

MARK: You really get up close and personal with a consumer?

AMRITA: Yes, yes.

MARK: I want to go back and pick up on something you said about as you grew into the role, you made it more your own, you made Candid your own. Can you talk about that process a bit?

AMRITA: I do believe that the client relationships, the kind of work you do reflects on the kind of person you are creatively. Obviously, since I started slowly spearheading and Atul was obviously a great mentor and he has taught me everything he knows and that’s why we work together for 20-plus years, what ended up happening is that the projects were an echo of me creatively.

So whether it is making a giant installation or creating something technologically, it’s everything which interests me or my creativity was reflected on the client projects, unlike maybe, I don’t know, if Atul was to be the head of creative for Candid, maybe his style of creative and content would be different. And obviously the relationships and the brands also reflect that. The kind of brands I would identify with, or the kind of clients I would be excited to work with at the end of the day are the ones you end up really making relationships with and hence doing good work for. I believe that’s true for every agency. At the end of the day, the brands, clients and the work reflects you personally. It’s very difficult to come up with something creatively, which is not something you are excited about.

MARK: Absolutely. I think this is so important. The way I always look at it is I want to find a client who inspires me, because I know that brings out the best in me. I always say this isn’t a luxury because I know what fires me up to deliver the best that I can do as a service provider.

I think any creative needs to know what is it that brings out the best in you.

AMRITA: You’ve hit on something, which is very important to the way we do business and I think it drives us every day today also, is around I think seven, eight years ago, we had this disastrous project; there was no creativity in it. It was just execution and we had a nightmare. I remember I was meeting my dad after a year and I was on comms calls at 2:00 in the morning, 3:00 in the morning solving fires, and I told him, we had a chat the next day, and we were like, ‘This is not the kind of work we want to do. I think we just need to get off the treadmill.’ We felt like we were on this treadmill and because we had expenses, we had a big team, you have to take on projects. Suddenly, the team and the clients were deciding the work we do and not the joy we were feeling. And we literally took a decision to stop doing projects where there’s no creativity, there’s no content, there’s no technology, and it cut down our business.

When we took this decision, we actually created a manifesto, which now sounds a little naive but we created a manifesto for ourselves, which is the kind of work we want to do and we said we are all about discovery. And that’s the day we said okay. I think after that, a couple of months, four or five months down, we lost a lot of business because, one, we refused, and second is obviously the clients, when you turn around and say, ‘Okay, we’ll do this project but we don’t do this project of yours,’ and they were like, ‘No, then don’t do any project of ours because we want somebody who does everything.’ And we lost a lot of business. I’m blessed that we could take that decision. I think it was like, ‘Let’s do work we want to do at the end of the day.’ It was tough. It’s very easy to now say and it all sounds very good but it was tough.

MARK: Right. Yeah. Now you’re looking back on the success story. But of course, I always think ‘no’ is a scary word to say but it can also be a very creative word because when you close the door to the stuff that you don’t want to do and you know in your heart isn’t you, that opens the door to do the thing that really is. But when you’re looking at the bottom line and you see the impact, particularly at the beginning, it can be tough.

I’d like to fast forward to late 2019, right at the beginning of 2020, just before the pandemic arrived on our screens. Tell me where Candid was at that stage and the kind of work that you were doing.

AMRITA: October 2019, I think is when Atul announced me taking over Candid completely. We had two offices, Bombay and Delhi. We had relationship clients like Bacardi, Cadbury, Disney, the who’s who in the Indian market, and around I think 120 people as a team. We were an agency with 120-plus people. It was good. The whole point was me taking over Candid and making it the agency, the creative content and activation agency. And that was the plan. That was the intent before Covid hit us.

MARK: You said that was the plan, that was the story, that was the movie you were living in at that stage.

AMRITA: Yeah. For me, it was a career high. This is an agency I spent 20 years… well, at that time, 18 years or 19 years of my life and I was just announced, Atul is stepping back and I’m taking over and I was taking over nationally. I started meeting clients and telling them that, ‘Okay, this is it. I’m it now. No more Atul in the scene.’

In fact, we started year planning for the next year. So a lot of our clients, unlike Indian clients, who is 1st April, new financial year, but the international clients are first, obviously, 1st Jan to 31st December, so in September, October, November, you start planning projects for the next year. So a lot of the planning work for next year had started already and that’s what I was busy in before Covid came in. We were setting revenue targets and talking about expanding the team and all of that.

MARK: Thinking about what you’ve just told us about where you came from, this was success, right? This was what you had worked for and invested and built up. And then what happened?

AMRITA: And then Covid happened, and I think it hit us first, slightly. A few projects got cancelled and then a few more projects got cancelled. And, obviously, with the activation business, you build what you execute. The creator and the content, which is a small part of the whole billing, there is a lot of actual physical production. The manpower who stands in the aisles in the stores, the trays they carry, the games you fabricate to engage about brands. So, obviously, the billing hit us very badly by Jan and that’s when we realized, ‘Okay, this is serious.’

And also what happened is a lot of things we had pre-booked and pre-billed suddenly turned to zero. So revenue-wise, it hit us in February. In March, we stood up and took notice and said, ‘This is not going anywhere,’ and we had to have a very, very tough call with everybody, where we told everybody that we had to go to 50% salary until further notice. And we were hoping against hope that this thing will blow up by July, August. Obviously, we were wrong. We were so wrong.

MARK: And just so that we understand the context that you were operating in, was it because it was so much dependent on face-to-face and interaction with consumers and that that was all restricted?

AMRITA: Yeah. I’m sure everybody knows about the lockdown in India.

MARK: Tell us a bit because I know we’ve got listeners all over the world and everyone has got a different experience of lockdown, but maybe just paint the picture for us a little so we understand what you were dealing with.

AMRITA: I think the lockdown in India was announced in March, and I think 20, 21st. But it was literally announced with no notice, no preparation. I think it was mid-March, I’m not sure, I think 20, 21st it was just announced. The prime minister came on TV and said there’s going to be a lockdown. In our business where when you do activations, everything is face to face interaction whether it is store sampling, whether it’s mall engagement, whether it is events, consumer events, everything is face to face. So suddenly, business went zero because you couldn’t execute anything. You couldn’t do anything at all. Nothing. My team was sitting at home and nothing was done. So all projects were put on pause and hold and eventually cancelled.

Also, the thing is that even after the first lockdown was then relaxed, the numbers were still so high that even when clients would refer us, I couldn’t risk sending the team out there and getting infected. So the fact is that you just couldn’t execute. And even if you did execute and I would risk the team, there are no consumers out there. Everybody was home. So just the physical interface was just not possible. And we just went from 100 to 0.

MARK: I guess it must have really come home to you what it means to be the leader. You’ve been crowned CEO in October, and then suddenly you’re dealing with this. What was it like to be in the hot seat?

AMRITA: Oh, I have white hairs for the last two years! It’s been an extremely draining, turmoil-filled journey in the last two years because like I just shared from the first conversation of the 50% salaries, to eventually telling people that we have to let them go. We’ve gone from 120-plus to now 10 people. And getting messages in the middle of the night for money and vendors needing to be paid, it’s been tough. It’s been really tough. The fact is that we carried as many people as we could and for the longest time. We did as little as possible every month because we had only that much money in the bank at the end of the day and vendors had to be paid. So, I think every day Atul and me just literally lived day to day.

The worst thing about this whole thing and being the leaders, it’s there’s no end date. It’s not like I knew that it would finish so and so date, and hence, I have this much money in the bank and so I could plan for this. And clients won’t pay outstandings. It was just the ugliest side of business one can never hope to imagine to run. And when you take over an agency, you wish that you don’t do all of this. But just my life, the last two years has been the messy side of running the agency than the interesting side.

MARK: Where did you find your strength to step up as a leader and do what needed to be done?

AMRITA: I’m guessing, internally, my business partner, Atul, my friends and family. But I think just the fact that we’ve been a very close knit team and it’s almost been a family. I think the principle we led with from day one is we’ll try and do right by everybody. Even if we let go of someone, we let go of them… there is no way of letting go of someone, I have realized that. They will never understand obviously, and I don’t expect them to, the journey which we are going through, but I think the guiding principle was just trying to be good by everyone as much as possible.

It’s been tough. I don’t think I’ve handled it very well, I must say. There have been days of tears, anger, frustration, fighting. It’s been crazy.

MARK: Going back to the first part of 2020, at what point did you start to think, ‘Well, hang on a minute, we actually need to do something quite different here. We can’t just wait for everything to come back?’

AMRITA: What happened is after the initial shock and around April, May, I started reading a lot about the changed consumer behaviours internationally. We’ve always, as a team, Atul and I, we’ve always discussed about scaling up sampling to the nonphysical world. Many, many years ago when we used to discuss it, there were always a lot of hurdles to it, and one of the primary hurdles being digital comfort, transactions online.

Obviously with Covid, consumer behaviour changed. Indians got more comfortable transacting online. Indians got more comfortable putting more information, personal details online. Internet payments, digital payments exploded obviously because of Covid. Suddenly, I literally went back to all our old discussions and started thinking about it and the thought process was let me start something, let me just jump, I’ll aim later. Let me see if there’s any seed… literally because I didn’t realize what we were creating.

When we started in June, it was literally a project. It wasn’t supposed to be another company. It wasn’t supposed to be another product. It was just another project to pay the bills. How do we go out there and tell brands we work with that, ‘We know that consumer discovery has got limited. We know you still need to get consumers to find out about you. You need to discover consumers. Consumers need to discover about you. Aisles are obviously not an option. Malls are not an option. So here is something we are trying. Do you want to give it a go?’ And that’s exactly how we started in June.

MARK: This is really interesting to me. Because one of the things I heard, I think it was last year on James Altucher’s podcast, I think it was an economist who was saying that… I can’t remember his name, but he said that the pandemic isn’t going to change any trends, but it will accelerate a lot of them.

So in your case, what I’m hearing is you had this idea for a new way of engaging consumers and getting products into their hands. But you were ahead of the curve from where consumers were and maybe where your clients were in India at that time. And then the pandemic moved that curve forward.

AMRITA: Yes. Because one of the biggest issues in our earlier business in activation was the cost per contact. If you stand in a store, you are governed by the amount of people who walk into the store. If you stand in a mall, you’re governed by the number of footfalls in the mall. And, obviously, when you create a physical structure, you create a pop up store or you create trays to sample food, all of that comes at a cost.

So, overall activation or experiential marketing is costly as compared to digital ads or billboard advertising. And that is one of the biggest reasons brands wouldn’t spend too much of money also in it because cost per contact was never easily calculated because it’s difficult to calculate the secondary exposure and also it’s expensive. So that is the reason why we’ve been trying to think about digital sampling. And like you said, it just accelerated with the Covid conditions.

MARK: What about clients? Did you find them more open to experimenting and trying new things?

AMRITA: We were blessed to have some relationship clients. The low-hanging fruits were approached first, some arms of friends were twisted. And we put together the first edition, as we call, of Mojo Box to try it out. We did, I think it was 10,000 editions in just Bombay to try it out and we did it. We started in June and we finished the box very quickly after that. And we were like, ‘Okay, this has merit.’

MARK: Tell us more about the box. What is it and how does it work and what are the benefits?

AMRITA: How Mojo Box works is it’s an online discovery platform, and a consumer needs to go and register on it and give us certain details… the more you interact, the more details we would like of you, which helps us then understand what kind of products which interests you. Are you somebody who’s a wellness enthusiast? Are you a mother with new-born kids? Are you a foodie? Would you like to try food samples?

How we work is there are two parts to us. One is we create curated boxes with samples, which could be this is a genre or a target audience. We’ve done I think now 16 editions in total. There’s a wellness box, there’s a men’s personal care, there’s a women’s personal care. And if you want this box of samples to try, and we use this line, ‘Try before you buy,’ because of the value of samples, we try and keep it like almost ₹600, ₹700 and we tell the consumer to pay us like ₹120, ₹130 for courier and handling and logistics. So it’s almost like a value of 6X or 7X.

As an aside, we charge to filter the quality of the consumer because we also realized from our first edition that if you just give it for free, you don’t get the right kind of target audience you want. So charging a nominal amount makes sure that the consumer has skin in the game and it is somebody who’s serious about sampling. So when the consumer pays, the box is dispatched. We then collect feedback from the consumer, we collect pre-sampling feedback, and we collect post-sampling feedback. And this is all done online. And we’ve got very, very healthy rates. We get feedback percentages, anywhere from 30% to 42% on each edition.

MARK: That’s great.

AMRITA: Yeah, which I’ve been told from brands is a very good percentage because when they do other initiatives, they get 15%, 18%. We do incentivize feedback with something called Mojo Cash, which you can then use. It’s like loyalty points which you can use to buy further boxes. So feedback is collected. And once you receive the box of samples you get, you fill out the feedback on whether you like the samples, whether you want to buy them, and we share all of this with the brands.

We do not share first party data. We’ve been very clear from day one, we don’t share first party data with brands. Meaning your contact details, name, phone number, email ID. So you’re not going to get harassed by brands just because you’ve been sampled by them. I think that’s very important. We don’t intend to also do this anytime in the future. The reason I’m stressing on this is because at least people in India know how it is to get just bombarded with messages. You’ve given your number in some website and it’s sold to 20 other people. So we don’t share first party data at all. And that’s one of the reasons a lot of brands have also chosen not to work with us, which we are fine with. We do share the feedback, we do share the consumer stimuli.

Over and above this, we also work with the term ‘micro influencer’. What a micro influencer means is they are not these big influencers, they are not celebrities, they are not movie stars. Micro influencers are normal people who we look at are influential in their circle or their social circle or their area, like if they are a food blogger. We’ve just got two criteria. We look for anybody who’s got 5,000 following or an engagement percentage of 10% in Instagram. Engagement means how they interact with their audience in their posts, which is easily calculated.

It’s like a mother who blogs about her children. We believe that they make more of a difference than a celebrity whom you end up paying a lot of money and then you don’t believe because they may or may not be using that product. We’ve got over three and a half thousand people, these micro influencers who’ve registered with Mojo Box too and we use them to amplify the messaging or talk about those samples and the different products one can discover through various editions. So that’s also there for every edition. Brands get a huge benefit of just a lot of interesting content being made on social media because of the sampling exercise.

And like I was talking to you about when we used to do activation cost per contact and calculating exposures was a very difficult thing in the offline business. The other thing was that when you sample a bar of chocolate on a store aisle, no one’s going to post a picture about it on social media saying, ‘I got this chocolate on the store aisle.’ But if you get a Mojo Box, people make reels and posts and tag brands, and there’s a whole lot of social amplification of the whole sampling process. Again, it’s very easy for me to say, ‘Oh, this was the plan,’ but I must tell you, it was an interesting discovery we stumbled upon and then built up on it.

MARK: I always think that designing a business model is really about designing a system that creates value for everybody. So you’ve got the brands, you’ve got the consumers, you’ve got the micro influencers, and obviously there’s Candid. There’s a lot of moving parts in this. The image that’s coming to mind is assembling a watch, the old fashioned way, with all the different gears and whatever because you want to get it all moving in time together.

I’m curious, what results have you got for the different groups? How are consumers responding? How about clients and also the impact it’s had for Candid?

AMRITA: I think we started in June last year. So it’s been a little more than a year and few months. June, we started in Bombay. We rolled out to the rest of the cities in October last year. So let’s say 14 months of complete national presence. We’ve got 240,000 people who’ve registered with us.

MARK: Two hundred and forty thousand?!

AMRITA: Yes. And those 240,000 people have given another 200,000 data of members in their households because at the end of the day, the box is for the whole house, not just for you. And you could be living with your partner, you could be living with your parents, which a lot of people do in India. So we overall we have 450,000 consumer points to sample too.

In terms of brands, as I mentioned, I think we’ve done 16 editions so far, which is around 220,000 Mojo Boxes. And we’ve got over 80 brands who worked with us in the last 14 months. So those are the numbers. And out of the consumers who’ve registered with us, around 57% are women. So it’s not skewed to a gender, which I love because that was the other notion I had, ‘Will women only be going for samples and men won’t be interested?’ It’s really heartening to see. I would say it’s almost equal because it fluctuates.

MARK: I noticed your Instagram you have some boxes specifically for men.

AMRITA: Yes, we do. It’s interesting. Our engagement in our community is really high. And it’s interesting how people have started telling us that you must have these kind of boxes, you must have that kind of box. We were planning to do a mother’s box anytime soon because when we launched it in September, it went by really slowly, in the sense that we didn’t have much takers to finish that edition quickly and it took us almost two months to finish that edition. And we were like, ‘Okay, maybe new mothers don’t want to experiment as much as other people want to experiment.’ And last month, month and a half, we’ve actually been getting comments on our posts saying, ‘Why don’t you have brands for new mothers to try out?’ We are actually trying to get one together for the end of Jan.

So it’s been very interesting. We’ve got boxes for men right now. We’ve got a My Wellness Box, which is obviously new year, everybody is into this whole wellness and health thing so we’ve got one for that. And we’ve got one for the household right now. We had a party box in December.

MARK: Of course!

AMRITA: With cocktail mixers and lemonade and all of that.

MARK: And now it’s time for the post-party box…

AMRITA: Yeah.

MARK: I think this is really great because as you’ve touched on, a lot of the time, a lot of people see marketing as a nuisance, as an intrusion, as a bombardment. But you’ve actually got your consumers coming to you and saying, ‘Can you send us more? And can we have this thing and that thing?’

It’s great that you’ve flipped around that perception of marketing to get that level of engagement.

AMRITA: Yeah. We’ve got literally two different kinds of people. There are three kinds of people. One who have tried us and never have come back to us obviously, because at the end of the day, we are not an essential service. Discovery is not a primary need for someone ordering lunch on Uber Eats. So we’ve got that. And we realized that was a challenge. We have pushed the bar on newer, newer brands. So we keep our additions exciting. That worked because we’ve got a very healthy percentage of people who’ve come back and bought more than three, four, five Mojo Boxes.

Second is, I think, at the end of the day, the whole collation bit and the whole curation and collation bit I think is exciting for a consumer because when you get that box, it’s almost like getting a gift for oneself and you’re sitting at home, Covid, you’re working from home, everybody’s a little brain fried as they say in India. It’s a nice reprieve when you get a box full of samples and it’s lots of things to go through and then you feel empowered by giving feedback to the brands.

We also then send an SMS to the consumer with a code they can use to buy it so that they save money instead of paying full price. At the end of the day, I think it definitely is an interesting way to experience different brands.

MARK: How is it changing Candid? You’ve got this whole new arm to your business now. What difference is that making?

AMRITA: A lot. Ninety five percent of my time goes on to one thing.

MARK: Really?

AMRITA: Yeah. So in a way, see, because with Candid even now, we had done some projects in October, November, December, and projects started getting cancelled again. We had two very large activation plans for January, which got cancelled because of now the Omicron surge. I don’t see that changing. What’s to say the next variant doesn’t come with the letter N, obviously. So it’s not going to change and I’ll be foolish to think it will. So the whole team, there are four or five key members in the team who’ve actually just literally upskilled and have just started doing only Mojo Box work because I don’t see activation coming full swing anytime soon.

MARK: How does the future look then for you in Candid? Obviously, it’s cost you a lot and we can’t minimize that or bring back those people. But in the sense that it’s allowed you to move forward with an idea that you had on the back burner for a while and that’s now paying dividends, how does the future look for you?

AMRITA: I think the future looks interesting. It’s not a cop out because for us we are planning on how to scale up Mojo Box more and more. We’ve have a lot of plans for Mojo Box. We’re launching some new features in the next one week or so, where one can make their own Mojo Boxes instead of it being a pre-curated Mojo Box. And there are many other things. So we’ve got a couple of launches of different features lined up in the next three, four months.

I think the future is going to be about Mojo Box for us because I don’t think people will just come back and sample how they did. I think that has left the Pandora’s box and the beast I think will be difficult to put it back in. Maybe there’ll be a new hybrid behaviour. Eventually, whenever it is and Covid becomes like the common cold or a flu, I don’t think people will just go back to what it was two years ago. I think that there will be a hybrid version, which will be created. I think Mojo Box then definitely has a place in that world. And that’s what we are excited about in creating.

MARK: I’ve said right from the beginning of this thing, my wish is that we all come out of this with more choices than we went in. To hear you saying you’re excited about what you’re creating now is fantastic considering everything that you and the team have gone through. So for somebody listening to this, we can’t consign Covid to history yet. We’re all still dealing with some version of the challenges you’ve described and the changed landscape you’ve described.

What would you say are some of the biggest learnings that have come out of all of this for you that maybe other people could take to heart in their own work and their own business?

AMRITA: I would say number one is it’s okay to go slow. As a person, I get extremely impatient and frustrated. Just the fact that this is stretched for two years is a huge source of frustration for me. And even creating Mojo Box, or going live with Mojo Box, going live with a feature, or it’s not working, or an edition not going fast, I think going slow is okay is the first thing I would say because it’s been a huge learning for me.

Because in the Candid part of my life, everything was fast, fast, fast. You get the project fast, deliver fast, execute fast, give it to the client. The client wants to revert fast, the client wants to pitch fast. Everything was in literally a fast forward cycle. I think the last two years has taught me going slow is okay. In fact, it’s absolutely okay and allow yourself to go slow. I think that is the first thing, whether it’s personal or whether it’s work.

The second is I read this somewhere and I just don’t remember where I read it but I so love it, if you’re not embarrassed with the first image or first version of your product or business, you’ve launched too slow. I don’t remember where I read it but I love it. Because if you had seen the Mojo Box website or the pages or the clunky way we would take information in June, it’s an embarrassment. But I’m glad we did it. Because I’m glad we just pushed the car out of the garage, as they say, because I don’t think we would have reached where we are if I would have over-thought everything at that moment. I think it was very important for it to just get it out of the house at that time. So, as I said, I just wish where I read the sentence, but it is so true. It is so true. That it doesn’t matter that it’s clunky, it doesn’t matter it’s ugly. If you’ve got a thought process, just go for it and just get it out there.

Surprisingly, the brands have been the most understanding. Clients have been the most understanding in our whole evolution. Because everybody is learning. I hate using that word, unprecedented, so I will not, but nobody has experienced this thing. Everybody is learning, everybody is going through their way. Brands have had factories shut because of Covid outbreaks and stuff. Nobody has gone through all of this. It’s amazing how much empathy has gone all around. I’ve literally had a client call me and say that, ‘As an entrepreneur, I can just imagine the stress you’re through. So if you just want to call and cry I’m there.’

MARK: Wow, what a great client!

AMRITA: I have never had a client say that to me when I was running Candid. So it’s amazing.

MARK: That’s lovely. Go slow but maybe not too slow, because you’ve got to get it out there.

AMRITA: Not too slow. Yeah.

MARK: Right. Okay. Great. All right. I think this would be a really nice point for you to set your Creative Challenge to our listener. For anybody who’s new to the show, at the end of every interview I ask my guest to set you, dear listener, a challenge. And this is something that will stretch you creatively and maybe personally and in other ways. It’s something that you can do or at least get started on within one week of listening to today’s interviews.

Amrita, what’s your Creative Challenge?

AMRITA: When we are doing something or we are creating something we get caught up in our world. I think it’s interesting to do a stimuli check every once in a while. Whether you’re a creator, or a content person, or a creative person or a marketing person, I think it’d be interesting to go out and talk to 10, 15 consumers, buyers, theatre, art gallery owners, whoever it is, and get stimuli from them and then change something or create something to address what they tell you.

I think stimuli checks, we keep talking and marketing specially, it’s great to talk to consumers but we don’t do it enough. We just don’t do it enough. We schedule it to these really big sessions once in a while so it would be nice to just go out there and talk to people.

MARK: I think that’s a great challenge. And I think it applies to the fine artists among us as well as the commercially-focused entrepreneurs and marketers. Because even just a conversation with somebody who read your book or came to your gallery or listened to your music or obviously, if you’re a musician, you’re used to getting more live feedback, but it can make such a difference and you really hear and see the difference it made to somebody. So I think that’s a lovely thing to do.

Amrita, thank you so much for sharing your very hard won wisdom. It’s been an inspiration to me listening and I love some of… you know, I’m going to think about that going slow and feeling embarrassed. That’s something I will certainly take with me.

Where can people go to find Mojo Box online? Who is able to get it? Is it just for people in India? You don’t deliver to Bristol yet?

AMRITA: No, we don’t deliver to Bristol yet but I may just send you one! We only deliver to India and we’re on Instagram @iwantamojobox. It’s as simple as that.

MARK: @iwantamojobox on Instagram. Okay. I’ll make sure we link to that from the show notes. And Candid Marketing?

AMRITA: Again on Instagram, @candidmktg.

MARK: Right. And then the website?

AMRITA: candidmarketing.com

MARK: candidmarketing.com. Great.

AMRITA: And mojobox.online

MARK: Brilliant. Thank you so much, Amrita, and all the best with Mojo Box for the future.

AMRITA: Thank you.

Each episode of The 21st Century Creative podcast features an interview with an outstanding creator in the arts or creative industries.

At the end of the interview, I ask my guest to set you a Creative Challenge that will help you put the ideas from the interview in to practice in your own work.

And in the first part of the show, I share insights and practical guidance based on my experience of coaching creatives like you since 1996.

If you’d like my help applying the ideas from the show to your own situation you are welcome to join us in the 21st Century Member’s Group.

This will give you access to Goal-setting, Accountability and Q&A videos, as well as other exclusive insights and glimpses behind the scenes of the show. Due to the pandemic, membership is currently on a pay-what-you-want basis.

Your membership fee will also support the podcast and help to make it sustainable.

Become a Patron!

Make sure you receive every episode of The 21st Century Creative by subscribing:

The post Launching a New Business in the Pandemic with Amrita Kumar appeared first on Creative Coach | Mark McGuinness | Since 1996.

• From Tattoos to NFTs with Ichi Hatano
• Helping Musicians Through Lockdown with Charlotte Abroms
• Creative Disruption: How 12 Creatives on 5 Continents Rose to the Challenge of the Pandemic

Welcome to Episode 3 of the CREATIVE DISRUPTION season of The 21st Century Creative, where we are hearing stories of creatives around the world who came up with a creative response to the challenges of the pandemic.

Today we are looking at the world of film and TV production, which was massively disrupted by the pandemic restrictions. All of which created a huge headache for TV production companies, movie studios, advertising agencies and other media producers.

At the same time, filmmakers all around the world were sitting at home, frustrated that they were unable to use their skills, and anxious about their financial situation. At this point, as you’ll hear in today’s interview, my guests Harrison Winter, Brandon Bloch and Lagan Sebert realised the solution was staring them in the face.

Listen to find out what their solution was – it’s a really dramatic example of a creative opportunity opening up when your innovative approach puts you ahead of the curve.

In the coaching section of the show I encourage you to make your marketing personal with a media dashboard.

In today’s interview Harrison Winter, Brandon Bloch and Lagan Sebert explain how in early 2020, when many people in the film and TV industries were lamenting the fact that it was impossible to send film crews around the world, they realised they were sitting on a solution.

Hometeam – Global Content from Hometeam on Vimeo.

Because they had already spent years building networks of film-makers around the world, and providing remote shooting services to clients via Harrison’s company Co.MISSION Content Group and Brandon and Lagan’s company Magic Seed Productions.

Between them, their two companies had the resources and experience to reboot productions while the rest of the industry went dark. So they took the next logical step, and founded a new company, Hometeam.

Hometeam leverages a highly-curated network of over 500 top-tier filmmakers across more than 150 countries to provide remote shooting solutions to clients around the globe, including NBC’s The Voice, HBO Max’s Legendary, NBC’s Global Citizen Prize, and Trillions of Questions. No Easy Answers, a feature-length documentary for Google.

In the course of our interview, Harrison, Brandon and Lagan talk about the chaos of early 2020, and about spotting the big opportunity in front of them – the point where their innovative approach had suddenly gone from niche-and-risky to mainstream-and-essential.

They tell the story of how they joined the dots, connecting clients and film-makers, to reboot filming, get productions made, and provide work for talented creatives around the world.

And they argue that their model is not just a band-aid for a temporary problem – it can deliver many creative benefits, as well as logistical ones. So it opens up new possibilities for the future of production for TV, film, brand and agency clients.

If you are involved in film production in any way, you’ll find this a compelling and thought provoking conversation.

And even if you’re not, I think you’ll find it an inspiring story of finding the creative solution in a set of constraints – and about the importance of pursuing an innovative idea, in the face of external resistance, to the point where a big opportunity opens up.

MARK: Harrison, Lagan, Brandon, how did you get started on the creative path that you are now on? I’m aware there may well be three different answers to this!

BRANDON: Do you want the short answer or the very long-winded answer? I won’t go so far as to say we’re an overnight success yet, but whenever you hear of an overnight success the saying is 10 years went into that journey to get you there. And I would say it’s been at least 10 years, but you could trace my journey back to childhood, and drawing, and being creative, and going to school for entrepreneurship, and then dabbling with film equipment, and learning how to tell stories on my own, learning how to use the equipment on my own, going back to school for film, working in the industry at every level, playing every crew role on a set.

That informs every decision we make at this point. I think it’s a strength of mine and ours, but is the fact that we’ve rolled up our sleeves and gotten our hands dirty, playing every role in the film production process. So, we have this innate understanding of what’s needed to create something in film and video, and also what our crew needs to be successful, what our clients expect, and what it takes to meet their expectations. Yeah.

LAGAN: I’ll jump in. I do think it’s interesting. I think all three of us do come from different backgrounds, but there’s a similarity to the story because I think is not a coincidence that we’re all basically the same age. Because there was definitely some advances in technology that happened in around the mid-2000s where I think in the film community, they call it the 5D revolution where there were new cameras that came out that gave independent filmmakers the ability to make something that looked cinematic, to make something that looked like it came from Hollywood, within a camera body that only cost maybe $1,200 or $1,500. And so I think all three of us were kind of part of that.

I know for myself, I was very interested in film, I was working in production in Los Angeles, but was inspired by the independent filmmakers that I saw making documentaries. At that time, I was very interested in social documentaries. And just seeing that the technology had advanced and the tools were there, that anybody could grab a camera, and as long as you had the talent and you had the commitment, and you had a good story to tell anybody could really do it. A lot of the people that we work with now, not all, but a lot of them do come from that same generation, where in the mid-2000s when the technology got to a point where anybody could pick up a DSLR and go out and create something beautiful.

MARK: Harrison, does that resonate for you?

HARRISON: Absolutely. I think the original question was how did we individually and collectively find our way to creative path? That was the question, right?

MARK: Yeah.

HARRISON: I think what Lagan said resonates for all of us. We all ‘grew up’ that way in our professional careers, and found each other as collaborators and partners that way. I think being a creative in general means that you’re just wired a little differently, and that wiring can come from a range of different places. I come from a fairly creative and entrepreneurial family, where that’s a part of who we are. I spent the first 10 years of my career in advertising, and marketing, and things like that before I just really got bored. And as Lagan said, all these filmmaking tools became immediately much more readily available. And so I started filming, and directing, and producing, and editing, and coloring, and just really got bit by it and fell in love with it, and made a career switch in some regards. I think we’ve all found our own winding paths into this, but I think especially over the past 10 years, have a ton in common on our creative path, on how we arrive at where we are today.

MARK: And if we could maybe fast forward to late 2019, none of us had ever heard of Covid, what did your work look like at that stage? Where were you? What were you working on? What were you planning for 2020?

BRANDON: I’ll take this one. Lagan and I were running a production company called Magic Seed. And what that looked like was a pretty traditional model for a small, full-service production company. We were doing a lot of branded content, a lot of music videos, social content, some commercials. I think we had that pretty dialed in, and we’re really proud of our work. It was a lot of really creative stuff for brands and agencies and companies. What’s unique and set us up, I think, to respond so quickly to what happened in early 2020 was Harrison came back into the picture and we were all having a conversation at that point. As 2019 moved into 2020, the three of us were having conversations about how could we do this better?

We were identifying pain points of how, based on 10 years of experience for each of us something could be done better here. There seems to be a lot more effort put into making a video than needs to be, and a lot of frustration, like pitches that go nowhere, a lot of effort goes into that, overshooting just tons of footage that all leads to a 30-second spot. And you’re like, ‘We left so much on the cutting room floor.’ As a father of two young kids having to spend more and more time on the road. Every time I had to make something, I had to go travel for 4, 5, 10 days at a time. And so, just identifying inefficiencies in the model, ways that could be done better.

We have a document from late 2019, early 2020 pre-pandemic of like, ‘Here’s a bunch of pain points and as three partners with experience and innovative spirits, maybe there’s ways we could solve this.’ And that’s the conversation we were having right as the news dropped of the pandemic.

MARK: Okay. And little did you know what that news was going to be, and maybe which specific pain points got ramped up.

What was your sense at that point of what the most important pain points were? The biggest problems to solve?

LAGAN: I definitely think Harrison should jump in here because if there was any of us that had the crystal ball, it was definitely Harrison. Because obviously, when the pandemic started, the most practical thing that stopped is travel. So, Harrison’s the one who’s been working on this model of doing production without travel for a long time. Harrison, do you want to just like, talk about that a little bit?

HARRISON: I would love to. It’s funny, as soon as Covid arrived on the scene, within the first couple of weeks I turned to my wife and I said, ‘This Covid thing is going to be a big deal, and it’s going to be a mess, and it’s going to be really bad.’ But one of the first things I said is, ‘It’s going to be amazing for our business.’ Production had started to come to a standstill because you had a legacy industry that was built on putting crews on planes to go and shoot. And I had been running a production company for a decade that had a very specific, unique model that really was about remote, global production. We had done huge campaigns where we were filming with 30, 40 crews on a single day spread out around the world.

But leading up to 2019 and early 2020, that production company that I was running had really started to reach its limits in terms of client growth and things like that, just because we’d carved out such a niche in global that it just became limiting. When Covid arrived, my first instinct was the entire industry was then going to have to go through a really big, painful adjustment. The first knee-jerk reaction was let’s hold productions. Let’s hold productions and wait and see what happens. And then what happened was, after two or three months, when everybody started to realize that this wasn’t going to turn around anytime soon, and everybody’s livelihood as advertising agencies, as brands, as TV networks was like…content’s been the lifeblood of those industries and those businesses in driving revenue and advertising dollars. Something had to be figured out.

It was very, very immediate in 2020, me, Brandon and Lagan all kind of immediately came to the idea that we’ve got to launch something new, and it’s really got to be focused on remote production, and we’ve got to do it quickly, and come to the market with something that is fresh, that is timely, that is solution-oriented to solve this problem because there’s nobody really better fit to do it. That’s my long-winded answer. Does that make sense?

MARK: Yeah, that does.

I’m curious, before we go too far into the pandemic story, what was it that made you prioritize global production and remote production for such a long time before this came along and everyone had to think about it?

HARRISON: Before I started that production company, I was in advertising and marketing for a decade at brands and at advertising agencies. The last account that I had helped to run at an ad agency was one of the biggest hotel travel companies in the world. And that client and a lot of other clients around the agency were starting to ask for a lot more digital online content that was not huge TV campaigns, and the agencies were having a really hard time delivering on it. They were starting to ask for content that needed to be filmed in a lot of different places. And it just wasn’t a request from clients that anybody out there was really able to meet.

At the same time, I had started to create content. So, I had become a filmmaker in the sense of learning how to shoot, direct, edit, all of that. At the same time, I started to meet a ton of other filmmakers that were very similar to me. I was living in Brooklyn at the time. And that’s when Brandon and I linked up, and I started to do small projects for brands. As I was meeting more and more of these filmmakers in Brooklyn because Brooklyn was a massive creative hub at the time. Brooklyn was like one of the epicenters of where this new filmmaking meets technology was starting to really like bubble up globally. Brooklyn was one of those main hubs, but I started to notice Brooklyn was not an anomaly. Because of the technology, these filmmakers are budding up everywhere.

I saw these two things meet. I saw the need because I come from advertising and marketing, and then I knew that there was this supply to meet it, but nobody had really made that connection yet. In these early stages of this industry transformation, it’s back to your original question, why did I decide to focus on this? I needed something and I wanted something that I could go into any room, at any client, at any agency, anywhere in the world and say, ‘Wherever you need your content filmed, we know how to do that tomorrow. And we’ve got it covered.’ I needed to have a stake in the ground in order to really drive attention and confidence, and to be known for something. I saw the trend and I felt like that’s where everything was heading, and I started to just build it around that.

MARK: So, you observed that trend. You noticed it in your own experience, your own ambitions, and your own practice as a filmmaker. You looked around, you saw other people were doing it, not just near you, but in other parts of the world. And you had this idea of joining up the dots so that, as you say, you could walk into that room and promise remote production, wherever, whatever the project is, around the globe.,/p>

So, is this why you said to your wife, ‘I think there’s a good opportunity for us when the pandemic…’

HARRISON: When Covid hit?

MARK: Yeah.

HARRISON: I think the big reason was the first 10 years of running this type of model, we were working with amazing clients. But the reason why we were working with amazing clients is because those types of clients were the early adopters. It was the tech companies of the world, it was Facebook, Instagram, Google, Starbucks. It was these really, really forward-thinking early adopters. But they would only have a few key projects a year that were a very good fit for this model. What had happened over that decade is there was nothing that had really happened yet to really push this model beyond the very early adopter clients. There wasn’t enough momentum to push it a little bit more mainstream as a model that more and more clients could see a reason to use.

The reason why I turned to my wife immediately was because I could understand that this was going to be the huge shift in the fabric of the world and the fabric of reality that was going to, all of a sudden, make this model an absolute necessity, where it was no longer going to be relevant whether it’s early adopters or late adopters. All of a sudden, within a matter of a month of Covid happening, this model then, all of a sudden, became really, in our minds, the only way forward.

The task of finding early adopters and educating them on the model, and how it’s going to work, and you, for a decade, having to push upstream, all of a sudden, the current in the stream changed direction. And all of a sudden, I knew the stream was going to start to flow towards us. And that’s kind of where my mind was going and why I said that to my wife, I knew the river current was going to change.

BRANDON: I could say it another way is that it went from a nice-to-have, I think. If you wanted to tell a story that was a global story, and you didn’t want to put a crew on a plane and fly them to those locations, it was a nice model. And the client had to come around and say, ‘Oh, well, maybe we could use this different model and take a risk on it.’ And then it went to a must-have solution; this is the only way we’re going to be able to move forward because travel’s impossible. Covid created this constraint, and the solution had already been solved by Harrison and his model. And Lagan and I were already familiar with this solution because I had been a director for Harrison’s company.

So, I had been on like the crew and director side of using the model and knowing it works, and this is how you build productions. And Lagan and I had also spent a career doing music content, hopping on tour buses, landing in cities, and crewing up with local crews. So we kind of had our own version of this. And the important thing is a comfort with it too, knowing that I could fly to Seattle. One of our last productions before Covid hit, was Lagan and I flew to Seattle and we connected with an entire crew in Seattle. We didn’t fly the whole crew there. We were comfortable flying there as the creative leads and hooking up with a crew that already had the infrastructure. So we were all very comfortable with this model of there’s remote, distributed crews all over the world.

I want to tell a little story of in the early days of Covid, the other thing was we’re friends with agency leads and creatives who commission business. Personal friends. We’re also friends with the filmmakers, people who run around, own the gear, travel, create awesome content. So for me, what the experience looked like in the early days of Covid was scrolling through my Instagram feed, and one friend who works at an agency is like, ‘I guess full stop. No more production until this passes.’ And the next little frame on Instagram was my buddy Mike, down the street, or in another state who owns a closet full of tens of thousands worth of amazing RED cameras and gimbals and drones, he’s saying, ‘I guess my life is going to be doing still lives of my cats, or the flowers on my table because we’re all quarantined.’

So what it looked like to us, I think, is demand meets supply. Demand of, ‘I guess we’re never going to do production again,’ and the next thing you slide down, you see a filmmaker, ‘I guess I’m never going to shoot again,’ and us saying, ‘Well, I guess we could actually be the matchmaker between those two parties and help them all realize you can keep your projects going for your clients because we could shoot it wherever you need to shoot it without needing to travel. We could shoot it locally. And for the filmmakers, you could still have a livelihood. You don’t need to hop on a plane to earn a paycheck. You could shoot with the resources you own, and you could shoot with your friends and your family members even. You could tell stories locally, you could tell stories in your own backyard, at your own kitchen table.’

So when I flash back to those early days of the pandemic, it was motivated by a lot of, ‘Let’s solve this problem for our friends who work in agencies and need the work made, and our friends who are filmmakers and need to keep making a living, honestly.’ It seemed like a very easy, ‘Aha, okay. Let’s just link these two parties together and keep making stuff.’

LAGAN: Yes. One really quick note on that, because of the three of us, I do the most work in the music world. So, what happened in music was really fascinating because all the tours got canceled. Which is the main driver of income for musicians. So, because there’s no album sales anymore, the main way they can make a living is by touring. All the tours got canceled. So all of a sudden, all of these musicians, their best option for earning income was doing live streams or doing concerts online, things like that. The demand for video spiked I would say probably overall. I think there’s probably somebody who’s figured that out, that it’s probably the demand for video since the pandemic started has spiked in general.

But I can tell you from experience in music, it has absolutely spiked. In my network, which is much more heavily focused on music it was just a necessity. A lot of people, the artists and the labels and things like that, they’re like, ‘How can we do this?’ And the reality is that the way that we’ve all three of us been brought up…we’ve done production is a more nimble model. And that’s the style of production that works within a pandemic, is a more nimble model where you have 5 to 15 people on set instead of 50 to 150 because that is exponentially more complicated during a pandemic.

BRANDON: I think we all got really comfortable in our careers over the past 10 years. You could make something really beautiful and compelling with…I’ll be honest, with a two-man crew. My most popular video I ever made that looks beautiful, in my opinion. No, but it’s award-winning, it got all the Vimeo staff picks, it got into a lot of festivals and won some festivals. I made that with my friend, Tim. It was two people. That’s it. And then I would go as a director to a set where I come in, I look around, I’m like, ‘There’s 60 people on the set. What are all these people doing?’ And then the end product comes out and I’m like, ‘This is nowhere near as lively, and exciting, and entertaining as the thing I made with my buddy.’ So, just to say, I think all of us got really used to that scale of production.

A lot of our clients still with Hometeam, come to us, and one of the things they’re having to get comfortable with is, ‘Wait, are you saying we can make something for television with a crew of four or five?’ And maybe that’s actually one of the big things they’re having to get comfortable with. We’ve seen that for over a decade.

MARK: So you’re saying there’s a clear and obvious benefit to all of this in terms of logistics, being able to get people on the ground where you want them to be, to shoot without having to get on airplanes, etc.

But you are saying that beyond that, and the efficiency, and the environmental impact, and so on, that there’s a creative benefit in being leaner and being more nimble?

HARRISON: You’re teeing up Brandon’s favorite subject.

LAGAN: Go for it, Brandon!

MARK: Yeah.

HARRISON: New creative possibilities…

BRANDON: My favorite part of what we’re doing is…I mean, there’s a lot of things I really love about what we’re doing, but one of my favorite things is meeting agency creatives on a call. And they’re like, ‘We’ve heard of you guys. I think we might need to use you because there’s no other way to get this done.’ So they meet us because they’re stuck, their back’s against the wall. And my goal in those conversations is to turn them into seeing this isn’t just a, ‘You’re forced to use us.’ What the tool we’ve built with Hometeam actually offers is a new creative tool in your toolkit that opens up the ability to tell bigger stories across a global scale. So, rather than you needing to crew up in the most expected hubs of maybe LA, New York, Atlanta, your story can be more authentic, and more local, and feel more homemade.

Nobody knows the texture of their city better than a local crew. So when we’re shooting for NBC or HBO you can imagine how they used to arrive as a crew, flying from LA, lands in Iowa, and has to immediately start sourcing locations. And they’re going to hit the highlights, the most expected kind of touristy things you could search on Google. Instead, if you hired a crew from Iowa, they’re going to say, ‘There’s this awesome cornfield.’ And, ‘My buddy owns that coffee shop.’ And, ‘There’s this really cool alleyway nobody knows about where all the locals do graffiti or whatever.’ You’re able to bring more flavor out of the creative.

By the end of these calls with agencies, I start to see their eyes open up and they’re like, ‘Wait, we could tell stories that exist across the United States,’ or ‘We could tell stories that exist across the globe rather than…’ Yeah. We have another client that’s an education client and this is an example I like to use. We used to say, ‘Let’s land in Seattle or Austin. And we have to tell the story of five students and what their experience looks like, but we have to cast it all in that one city because we’re doing five days of production in that city.’ With that same client, we can now say, ‘We could tell the story of what does the first day of school looks like in every one of the 50 states in the US?’ And we could film it all on the same first day of school. And it’s just a whole different creative possibility.

LAGAN: Can I add one thing to that too? Is something that’s really…and this, you have to chalk it up to technology in the way it’s advanced, but like on a traditional set you’ve got your director, your cinematographer filming. And typically you’ve got, whether it be like the clients or other interested parties, if they’re on set, they’re typically away from where the filming is happening behind a monitor. And they’re watching the monitor, right? What’s crazy is, so what is the difference between that and watching the same footage on Zoom?

Because here’s the other thing, is if that client has a note on what they’re shooting, they’re not going to go yell at the director, ‘Hey, hey. Stop doing that. We gotta change and do this thing.’ What they’re going to do actually, is they’re going to text the producer. So, what’s actually happened is like when you’re on Zoom or Google Meet or whatever, and you’re streaming the camera feed, it’s actually making things more streamlined. Because then you could just put in the chat to the producer, ‘Oh, by the way, we need to get another version of that because the guy pronounced the name of the city wrong.’ There is absolutely nothing different from a client or an interested party doing that, watching the feed on Zoom or traveling halfway across the world to sit in another room behind a monitor. There’s no difference.

HARRISON: I’d love to add one other important thing about the creative possibilities that Brandon was talking about as well, a really super important thing is I think our industry right now is…there’s two, I think, parts of our industry. There’s an old guard and a new guard. And what’s happened is when Brandon talks about these additional creative possibilities and finding or using that filmmaker in Iowa, who knows all about the best places to film because they live there.

What’s interesting is the old guard of our industry who’s been filming in New York and LA for decades is still operating under the assumption that the only good filmmaker talent, directors, DPs, etc., are still only residing in New York and LA. What we have found over the past decade is the guy in Iowa is filming on the same gear, and is as talented as the filmmakers in New York and LA. He might be hard to find, but he’s there. He’s in Iowa.

LAGAN: He or she.

HARRISON: He or she. Great point. And there might not be 50 in Iowa, but there might be 2. And that level of talent is a big part of why these creative possibilities are open. I guess what I’m trying to say is what we do is not just stick somebody behind a camera. What we’ve done over the 10 years is we’ve done the really hard work of finding, all right, if there’s only one guy or woman in Iowa at this level of talent, who is he or she? And we found all of them across the U.S. and 150 countries around the world. And that’s a big part of what’s also opened up these creative opportunities. The old guard might have also assumed that there are camera operators in every state, but that the talent is very subpar. And that’s just changed completely gradually over the past decade. And that’s a huge part of what’s opened up those creative possibilities.

LAGAN: And it’s also why we call them filmmakers. I think that’s a really important classification because there’s nobody on our roster who’s a camera operator. We only work with people who are filmmakers. And the difference is, that means that they are technically capable to operate cameras, but they’re also very adept creatively to have the vision, have a great eye to know how to get the beautiful shots, and how to tell a story visually. So there’s a big difference. And that’s why we always refer to our network as filmmakers.

BRANDON: I just want to jump in and say it’s because the only reason our model works… people say, ‘Well, you have less control if you’re doing this remotely.’ For this model to work, we have to find the right people who can take a vision that’s 80% baked in, and we deliver the correct shot list, and style guidance, and gear specs, and all that. We take it 80% of the way and then we trust them as talented filmmakers to take it across the finish line and add 20%, 30%, 40%. They always plus it. That’s how this model works. One of the things I think for your podcast and your audience is for all of us, I think, to succeed, we need to trust each other a lot.

If we were the types of creatives to say, ‘This is my vision, it’s only in my head. I need to control it 100%. I need to be there onsite telling everybody exactly what to do.’ We wouldn’t have come to this solution. The people in our network all have a similar spirit. It’s egoless, collaborative, independent. And so, that opens us up to consider a lot of different possibilities that others might not open themselves up to consider.

MARK: Okay. So, if we go back to the early part of 2020, Brandon, you are scrolling through Instagram, Harrison, you’re talking to your wife, you’re all trying to get your heads around, ‘What is happening to us? What are the implications?’

How did you get from there to forming Hometeam?

BRANDON: I remember it one way, but I would love to get both of your guys’ perspective. I think one of the first things we did was start reaching out to our filmmaker friends and say, ‘Let’s hack together a bit of a Rolodex of where you located? What kind of gear do you have? Things like who’s in your family who might appear on camera? What parks do you live near?’ We were basically expecting no one could leave their house, or go more than a mile in any given direction. Also we were thinking there’s going to be some clients who want to shoot a tabletop orange juice commercial with a young kid, there’s going to be some clients who want to shoot a really cool music video in an urban environment.

So we were just thinking, what are the possible scenarios of clients and what they might need? And then who do we know amongst our friends and our network, and Harrison’s vast network that he had created with his previous Co.MISSION company? Let’s all just combine all of our Rolodexes, and just start reaching out to our friends who are all stuck in the same way and say, ‘Hey, we’re going to figure this out. But in order for us to figure this out, we need you to help us out and tell us, what are you able to do locally?’ I remember that as the first step.

HARRISON: Here’s the story. So me, and Brandon, and Lagan had already linked up in January 2020 to start to try to figure out how do we all figure out how to work together? Despite having two different production companies, how do we go in and start working more together? We had started to try to map that out. And what happened was when Covid hit I’m in Charleston at the time, Brandon is in Austin at the time, Lagan is still in New Jersey, hadn’t yet moved to Nashville. And so we’re all communicating on text, day to day, tossing around ideas. I remember I got up one morning and I was just trying to brainstorm like, okay, production’s at a standstill.

We knew had this remote model that would work, but at the same time, brands also wanted commercials and things like that, where you need actors, you need talent, not just the crews. How do you start to do that again? I definitely jokingly texted Brandon and Lagan. We also had like some really great contacts in Seattle. I said, ‘We should just rent like a massive house in Seattle, put all of our crew and gear into the house in Seattle, and bring in an awesome wardrobe stylist, and bring in a cast of five to seven talents, and just churn out different commercials for clients. Make everybody in that house quarantine so that nobody would catch Covid, and we could just repurpose talent, and just make commercial after commercial.’

I was joking. And I’ll never forget, Brandon texted back and he was basically like, ‘Fuck that. We should just have all of our filmmakers that already have their family that can act as talent. And every single filmmaker that lives in a home is a different one of these things.’ And he was like, ‘And we should just call it Hometeam.’ In that singular text exchange, is the story of how it happened in terms of like, if you were to make it into a story. Then we went to work, and then it was like, ‘Okay, there’s really an idea here. And we can make it work. It’s essentially like the model that we already have with remote global production, but now let’s plus onto it everything.’ Does that make sense?

BRANDON: I would go further just for your audience and say that encapsulates one of the lessons of Covid, I think. We could either put up our shields and say, ‘Okay, we all have to quarantine and just get really small and maybe bring the resources in, but stay really protective of what we have, or we could share it all. And together we could all rise together.’ So, that’s what we’re proud about with Hometeam, it’s this massive fellowship. It’s a big tribe, it’s a big community. And by grouping together, we’re able to offer something really special to clients to keep going. But it’s a different approach. It’s a different model. I think there’s lessons in a lot of industries; if you share it and if you become more of a distributed model, there’s different opportunities.

MARK: I think there’s a lesson for life there. That’s such a great perspective. The one thing I’ve said from the beginning of all of this on the show, is that I hope we all come out of it with more choices and more possibilities than we went in. And it certainly sounds like you are delivering on that with what you’re doing with Hometeam.

LAGAN: Could I say one thing based on your last point, or the last thing you said?

MARK: Yeah.

LAGAN: I think, with what we’ve been up to for the last few years, the thing that gets me the most excited about it when I think about, ‘Oh, okay. This is something that actually does have some legs, it’s starting to catch on.’ The thing that gets me the most excited is that I think in the early days of the pandemic, I think there was an enormous amount of stress, especially around people who work freelance as freelance filmmakers. Is our way of life even going to be able to go on? Do I need to like go get an office job somewhere, or choose a different industry? And honestly, I think all of us, at some level, had that fear ourselves.

So what I’m most proud of is that we found avenues to bring interesting work to these filmmakers who are within our network and that they can do it without traveling, without spending 80% of their time on the road and being away from their families. But then, when I think about where this could go, I’m really excited about growing the Hometeam community of filmmakers and having it actually become more of a community where people can lean on each other for advice and also as a way to get more work for everybody.

But then also if you look ahead even further than that is it a way to help empower local art communities? These filmmakers who if they live in Birmingham, Alabama, or Madison, Wisconsin, or places like that if we’re bringing them more work, and I know it’s a far off goal, but it’s on a very small level, are we helping to make these artistic communities in all these places across the world just like a little bit more vibrant? I think it’s something that really excites me about it.

MARK: Thank you, Lagan. That is a really great perspective.

I know one question I’m going to get in response to that from my listeners, I’m going to have filmmakers contact me saying, ‘Can I join this community? Are you recruiting?’ If somebody is in a part of the world where they think, ‘I’ve got skills, I’ve got professional equipment. Could I be a part of Hometeam?’

BRANDON: Yeah.

LAGAN: The answer is yes.

BRANDON: I think we’re always recruiting. I think the goal is we’re only so many people able to do so many hours of searching for the next talent. Or these hidden gems. Our goal is to turn it into sort a banner, or a beacon. Then we’ve really done our jobs well, if people start to know that we’re out there and come to us and say, ‘I believe in your values and your mission, and I want to be involved.’ I’m so excited for that day to happen. Yeah.

MARK: Where should they go if that’s the case, somebody’s listening?

BRANDON: If what we’re doing excites them, they could go to wearehometeam.com, and on there, just shoot us an email, and it’ll arrive in our inboxes, and we’ll start the conversation. That’s how they could get in touch.

MARK: Fantastic. And of course, I’ll be linking from the show notes as well. We’ve been on quite the journey here, and I think there will be a lot of creatives listening to this, particularly within film and TV, obviously, but also other creatives. I think you’ve opened up some really important, fundamental ideas for us all in how we respond to this situation.

I think this would be a good time to focus on your Creative Challenge. If anybody is new to the show, this is the point where I ask my guest, or today guests, to set you, the listener, a Creative Challenge. This is something that is on theme for the interview, and helps you maybe integrate some of the ideas into your own practice. And it’s something that you can do, or you can get started on within seven days of listening to this conversation.

So, Hometeam, what is your Creative Challenge?

HARRISON: My Creative Challenge is the question, when and what is your next reinvention? As creatives, what I feel at this stage in my career is I feel like I’ve, in retrospect, had to go through a series of reinventions as a creative, as an entrepreneur, as a business model personally, as a company. I used to not really realize the reinventions until after they had already happened. And so now when I look back, I’m like, ‘The reinventions are constant. They’re like every four or five years.’ And when I sit down and I look at it, it’s like, what still holds true in your value that you provide, and what needs adjustment? And if you can separate those two things, it’ll help you get closer to your next reinvention. That would be my challenge, is to look at it proactively rather than reactively, of seeing your next reinvention coming, and shape it, and know that it’s coming, rather than being reactive. I think that’s one of the biggest lessons that I’ve learned. That would be my challenge to any creative or any entrepreneur.

MARK: Okay, great. Because it’s coming, ready or not, is what you’re saying?

HARRISON: Yeah, absolutely.

MARK: All right. Who’s next?

LAGAN: I got one.

MARK: Okay.

LAGAN: Mine’s a bit more straight-forward, I think, for our topic, but I think a lot of times when you’re trying to do something creative, you’re always asking permission to do it, because there’s always some sort of gatekeeper who’s the barrier between you and whatever creative endeavor you want to do. And I always tell people, if I talk to younger people who are trying to get into film specifically, is to just start doing it, because that’s really the only way to learn. And especially when you’re specifically talking about filmmaking, the tools are there. At this point a cell phone camera is as powerful as professional cameras were 10 years ago. If you have the vision to write a script and you have a cell phone, then you can make a movie. Stop asking permission and start making stuff.

MARK: Fantastic.

BRANDON: I love that. My dad’s a designer and he’s a consumer advocate, really interesting guy with a whole diverse set of experiences. But one thing he really instilled in me was, he always said…I think this is from his dad too, so maybe advice from my grandpa, ‘Throughout life challenges will come your way. But whenever that happens, look for a chance to turn a disadvantage into an advantage.’ Is what he would always say. So this sort of disadvantage into an advantage is burned into my head.

And as a guy who has a design and consumer advocate background, I was exposed to that, it turned into whenever you feel a pain point or a constraint, that’s where your answer is. So, for the challenge, what I would encourage your listeners to do, and this has always stayed true for me, is rather than accept the things that piss you off or are standing in your way, look at them and say, ‘How can I solve this?’

If you could solve it, it probably means a lot of other people want it solved. And that might be your answer to opening up a whole world of possibility. Look for the constraints, look for the things that piss you off, make a piece of art about it, make a comment about it, solve it, share it with the world. That’s how I try to approach things, actually.

MARK: Thank you, Brandon, Lagan, Harrison. One thing I’m really taking from today, and I always say to my listeners: ‘Listen for the attitude. Even if it’s not your industry or your creative field, listen to the attitude that these people have.’

You’ve really showed it in spades that coming to a crisis, you can’t expect the crisis, but actually you already had a lot to draw on before it hit. Also what I love is the fact that you were outward-looking. You were looking to connect people, you were looking to come up with solutions. There was no end to commiseration and what Raj Setty likes to call ‘the sympathy exchange’. But you were looking to the future and saying, ‘Hey, here’s what we can do. Here’s the opportunity in the constraint.’

Where should people go who want to find out more about Hometeam? Is it wearehometeam.com?

BRANDON: That’s it. We’ve built a pretty robust site. We turned our capabilities deck that we are sharing with clients and filmmakers into a website, so it’s a collection of our work, it’s a collection of case studies, how we got stuff done, some behind-the-scenes photos of our crews out in the field information about how we approach things. I think it’s like a pretty robust website that you could learn a lot about who we are, where we come from, and what we’re doing at any given time.

MARK: And also, I would say, if anybody’s list listening to this who is thinking, ‘Yeah, but really, can you get the quality? Can you get the consistency creatively?’ Go and have a look at the project section of the website because there’s an eye-popping set of projects. And several of them, you list all of the locations where you’ve shot and I wouldn’t guess. It looks and it feels seamless in terms of the look, and the feel, and the style, and the atmosphere, and also the quality. So, that’s a great place to go and check all that out, wearehometeam.com. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for your time and your hard-won wisdom.

HARRISON: Thank you for having us.

BRANDON: Thank you, Mark.

LAGAN: Yeah. Thanks for having us.

Each episode of The 21st Century Creative podcast features an interview with an outstanding creator in the arts or creative industries.

At the end of the interview, I ask my guest to set you a Creative Challenge that will help you put the ideas from the interview in to practice in your own work.

And in the first part of the show, I share insights and practical guidance based on my experience of coaching creatives like you since 1996.

If you’d like my help applying the ideas from the show to your own situation you are welcome to join us in the 21st Century Member’s Group.

This will give you access to Goal-setting, Accountability and Q&A videos, as well as other exclusive insights and glimpses behind the scenes of the show. Due to the pandemic, membership is currently on a pay-what-you-want basis.

Your membership fee will also support the podcast and help to make it sustainable.

Become a Patron!

Make sure you receive every episode of The 21st Century Creative by subscribing:

The post Rebooting Global Filming with Hometeam appeared first on Creative Coach | Mark McGuinness | Since 1996.

• From Tattoos to NFTs with Ichi Hatano
• Creative Disruption: How 12 Creatives on 5 Continents Rose to the Challenge of the Pandemic
• Mark’s Pandemic: Poetry, Podcasting and Pressure

Welcome to Episode 2 of the CREATIVE DISRUPTION season of The 21st Century Creative, where we are hearing stories of creatives around the world who came up with a creative response to the challenges of the pandemic.

This week we are off to South Africa, to hear from Earl Abrahams, an artist and filmmaker who likes to get up and close with his subjects, by walking and skating the streets of Johannesburg, sometimes hitching rides on the traffic as he captures the life of the city.

But all that came to an abrupt end in early 2020, when a strict lockdown saw Earl confined to his apartment block. He responded by making his camera his window on the world, a way of reimagining his surroundings, in a Lockdown Series of images that represented a new direction in his work.

Listen to Earl’s interview for an inspiring story of how art can be not only a refuge and a consolation but also a solution at a time of crisis.

In the intro to the show I update you on my poetry projects, including my other podcast, A Mouthful of Air, which has just been selected as one of the Top 9 Podcasts for Poetry Lovers, by Podcast Review.

I also talk about my latest poetry publications – you can read some of these and watch a video of me reading at the Ambit Competition Event here.

Another great poetry project I did, was a collaboration with the sculptor Sheena Devitt, we made a poem sculpted in sandstone that we exhibited at the Lettering Arts Trust in southeast England. You can see the piece we made together here.

In the coaching part of the show, I explain why rejection doesn’t mean you work isn’t good enough.

I also talk about the first week of the 21st Century Creative Members’ Group, where we have been sharing the goals we will be working on for the 10 weeks of the podcast season.

So if you would like to set yourself a meaningful goal for the next 2-and-a-bit months, and get some encouragement and support from me and the rest of the group, you are welcome to join us in the group on Patreon.

Earl is an artist working in lense-based media, in Johannesburg, South Africa. His practice spans film and photography, and investigates the intersections between race, identity, the state and social mobility.

He is an official Fujifilm X-Photographer and has showcased work in Paris through an exhibition titled ‘Créateurs en Mouvement’ which was arranged through the Swedish Institute in 2018, and took part in an online group show titled ‘Habit at’, during lockdown in 2020 with BKHZ.

He has also worked as a photographer and camera operator to create marketing campaigns for brands such as Fujifilm, SAB, KFC, ALDO, MTN and Vodacom.

All his photographs are taken in spaces whilst moving – he walks and skates the city streets, and even hitches a ride on his skates from vehicles in fast-moving traffic. We have some videos of Earl skating through the city, you should definitely check them out in the show notes. It’s quite an adrenaline rush just to watch the videos, goodness knows what it feels like for Earl on the skates!

And this way of working produces images with an incredible energy and vividness and authenticity.

As well as his own photography, Earl is making a series of short films about other South African artists and their process, which you can see in the Process section of his website, earl-abrahams.com. He also films news segments around the city and videos for corporate clients, so on a typical day he’s really out there and engaging with the people and the life of Johannesburg.

And then suddenly, in early 2020, all that was taken away from him.

There was a strict, heavily-policed lockdown in Johannesburg, and he found himself confined to his apartment block and its parking lot.

In response, Earl used his camera as a window on the world, documenting the experience in a remarkable series of photographs, which became known as the Lockdown Series.

As he tells me in this interview, photography became his place of solace, that kept him grounded and gave him an outlet for his emotions at a time of anxiety and uncertainty.

The images are quite remarkable, some of them almost abstract, in the way he’s framing a restricted field of vision, inside his apartment and also glimpses of the city outside. You’ll find some of these photos in the show notes, and more of them on Earl’s website.

But Lockdown Series wasn’t just a personal project – Earl shared the images on Instagram and then started selling prints online, which helped him sustain him financially through lockdown without government support.

As you’ll hear in the interview, Earl’s art was firstly a way of making sense of his isolation, and then then a way to connect with the outside world, touching other people’s lives and sustaining himself emotionally as well as financially.

He also talks about new collaborative projects he started, including Redefinition, a video art piece that grew out of the Lockdown Series, made in collaboration with poet Toni Giselle

Stuart and Flexpressionist and dancer, SEEFLêHX the ART1ST. Again, you can find the video in the show notes, and the full project on Earl’s website.

As well as talking about his own journey through the pandemic, Earl shares some valuable thoughts on how we can keep going in difficult circumstances, by trusting our creativity and our connections with other people to see us through.

MARK: Earl, how did you get started on your creative path?

EARL: I’d like to backtrack to childhood specifically because I think that those are amazing connection points to help you understand where you find yourself within your creative path. So one was, I remember always drawing at home and being so excited to show my grandfather my drawings. I feel that that form of expression still finds its way in what I do today. That was one.

The second part was skating. Skating was such a big introduction to the creative world. When I say skating, I mean in-line skating. A lot of people think it’s skateboarding. I did the whole trick-skating, ramp. They called it aggressive in-line skating or aggressive skating. So I did the whole trick-based stuff, grinding, etc. I still do it. But skating as a whole was such an amazing introduction to the creative world. One, taught me how to shoot stills and video, and introduced me to an arts community, which I was never exposed to because I grew up in an area called Bonteheuwel, which is on Cape Flats. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the Cape Flats, how that came about in terms of the Group Areas Act?

MARK: Lots of us won’t be, so do tell us, please.

EARL: How the Cape Flats essentially came about, you could call it a township or I think in the States you would call it a ‘hood. I’m not sure what it would be in London or other parts of the world, but it was basically a community that was established through the Group Areas Act during the apartheid regime, where all people of color were designated to very specific areas, sometimes they are viewed as concentration camps. It’s a community that I spent most of my formative years in, that I’m so grateful for because it showed me so much of who I am and who I could be. It’s taught me so much about redefining space. And essentially, skating became that part that introduced me to the creative world.

So from skating, I did a short course in graphic design. I was always shooting during the time because what my mother used to do, she used to get the work hand and borrow to me over weekends, which she wasn’t supposed to do, but that’s kind of how I got into shooting. And then just connecting with other people that are in the creative art spaces. And that really opened me up to the world of creativity and discovering my own forms of creativity.

MARK: At what point did you start to think that this was something you would want to do professionally?

EARL: That happened by accident. So besides doing my graphic design short course, I studied community development. I spent quite an extensive time in the development space, program development, youth development, and basically, underground development programming that we did in different communities. I came to a point, I think it was about 2015, 2016, where I was really just so exhausted of doing development in the way that I used to do it in that form. I really just wanted a shift and I wanted a change. But throughout the time of me doing my work, photography was a huge part of the way that I saw the world because I viewed it as journal entries, like it was the way that I journaled.

And I just decided to take the plunge. I was freelancing as a facilitator within the development sector still, and I decided to take the plunge in signing up for residency in Cape Town. And that’s what really started me on my journey. The photography studio is no longer open. It was called Amplify Studios. I really owe a lot to them for allowing someone like me into a space that has no background in art, but only has street knowledge of the people that I’ve connected to, which I still feel is knowledge because I think that sometimes knowledge can be quite… it can be boxed in. We have these different institutions that, how do I say? Have control over knowledge production and what knowledge is. So my street knowledge coupled with knowledge that I’ve gained along the way through connecting with people, I’m so grateful that they allowed me in to explore my craft.

Through that process, I developed a body of work titled, ‘Colored In,’ which is looking at the impact of the Group Areas Act on so-called colored people. That’s still a term, a racial term that is used in South Africa. It’s one of the boxes, even in the forms that we still have to tick. I would be seen as colored in specific certain contexts, especially in Cape Town more. More so in Cape Town than in Johannesburg, because I think Johannesburg is such a melting pot that you can’t really define as who are you, which box do you fit in? So I was really using that project as a way of unpacking my box that I’d been boxed into. And also, looking at that in reflection to other boxes that people find them in. Because essentially, these boxes have not been decided for by ourselves, we’ve been colored into these boxes. My question was, how do we color outside of the lines of these spaces and these worlds that have been created for us?

MARK: Where did you get to with that through the photography?

EARL: I produced a body of work, had a show after my residency. It went fairly well. And I think that gave me the confidence in order to say, ‘Hey, cool. I have an idea. I can do it if I just put it in motion, even though I don’t have the plan fully laid out.’ From there, I decided to take the plunge in moving up to Johannesburg. At that time, a previous partner, an ex-partner of mine, she wanted to make the move to Johannesburg, and I was ‘Hey, I’ll go along.’ Because at the moment I was freelancing and I didn’t really have much to do. So with her support, with family support, I decided to make the move to Johannesburg and pursue this wild idea of being a photographer artist.

Like I said, I’m still trying to define where I’m finding myself within this whole world, but I decided to make the move to Johannesburg. And from there, I got more involved in the film sector than the photographer sector at that point. I got more involved in the film sector and the commercial sector working as a camera operator, working as a loader, and doing behind-the-scenes photography. That’s what really got me on course in trying to solidify my position in Johannesburg as well.

MARK: So film has turned into a creative interest as well, hasn’t it? It sounded like maybe you were getting into it as a way of making a living when you first came to the city.

Can you talk a bit about the relationship between film and still photography and your work?

EARL: I do see them as separate mediums. I don’t see them as one medium. I gravitate to each one specifically depending on what I’m wanting to achieve. Like I said, sometimes I view photography as these journal entries. I’ve been shooting a lot of artists quite extensively during this time. And what I’ve been using photography as is that initial step to understanding and grasping who the person is that I’m going to interact with. It’s this small step before I actually document it through moving images. The video component is something that has really come to me in the past six years and has become quite an important part of the way I see the world. So it’s not only just in the artists that I document, but it’s also in me documenting myself, following my skates through the city, giving people an experience that they might not have in other ways.

MARK: Right. I think because I’ve seen some pretty amazing footage of you skating through the city. Can you talk a bit about that and how that is bound up with the work itself? And maybe we can put some video in the show notes if we have some.

EARL: That came about of me wanting to explore Johannesburg as a city. I know that a lot of people have a lot of ideas about what the city is, that it’s not safe, that it’s this, that it’s that. But to me, I wanted to challenge myself to experience the space in an unconventional way. So, like I said, I journey through the city on my skates, filming myself or hanging onto taxis, interacting with people along the way. And for me, it’s just all these forms of self-discovery. There’s not really one particular intention. The intention is to go out and discover.

MARK: Wow.

EARL: Maybe that’s an intention. Discovering something as an intention.

MARK: It strikes me looking at some of the films and hearing you talk, you really put yourself on the line there for your work in quite a bold and physical way, as well as, socially, even just interacting with people like that.

What do you think that brings to the work that you create as opposed to sitting safely at home in the studio with a model arranged or whatever?

EARL: That’s a beautiful question. I think interaction is such an important part of my work. I need something to interact with, whether it’s space, whether it’s people. Even backtracking to my ‘Colored In’ body of work, my interaction was collaboration with the sitter, who were the people that I was photographing. Because within the world of even documentary photography, my focus is always documenting people with their permission. So there’s a saying, I can’t remember who mentioned it, but it says, ‘Nothing About Us Without Us.’ And that has stayed with me for a while where I can’t document people without their permission. So yeah, I think that interaction and collaboration is such an important part of my work, and that’s what I’m trying to do even just with the skating and forming and just trying to experience my world in a new way.

MARK: If we can fast-forward to late 2019, early 2020, what was your practice and your business looking like at that point? And what were your plans for 2020?

EARL: My practice at that point, I was still working within the film industry. And I had quite a lot of context with agencies, and working in the advertising space. I run a production company, a small shop, and I was working with different organizations and different agencies. And then also freelancing as a camera operator myself, predominantly within the commercial and the film realm. I would do this thing called tracking. I’d do it on my skates with a gimbal and stabilizer. That was really starting to grow and really starting to pick up. And I was feeling really confident about putting a lot of plans in place and wanting to scale my business. That’s where I was at, I was excited for the year. I was excited to make things happen. And, then along came something else.

MARK: Along came something else.

Just before that something else; are you saying that the film, the advertising work, the agency work that was going on a parallel track to the art photography?

EARL: Interestingly, no, it wasn’t. I’ve always had that as a backburner. It’s something that I would do alongside the work that I do for money, and just keeping it on site. When I have time off, I get to my artwork. It wasn’t something that I really prioritized.

MARK: I’m like that about poetry. It’s never the poetry’s job to pay the bills. And so whenever I do it, it always feels like a release or an escape into my world.

EARL: Yeah. That’s exactly what I felt with my art because it’s still photography, but still art at the same time. But that’s what I really felt like when it came to work, cool, I’ll do it for work, which I enjoyed my work as well because it was also a creative outlet. Many a times, it really just felt like play. And when I came back to my art, it was just a natural transfusion from one plate to the next.

MARK: It’s so great if you’ve got that. I often think if you’ve got more than one creative discipline and somehow they’re not exactly the same, there’s maybe not a direct link from one to the other, but there’s something about the energy that they can complement each other.

EARL: I agree with that. Because I feel that also what happens is that one craft or one creative outlet also feeds the next, and it’s just a beautiful thing. I feel that I never stop being creative. Because I have a daily practice of shooting, and that feeds into every single thing, like feeds into the way that I see the world.

MARK: Yeah. And it’s very different, for instance, to people I talk to who they say, well, they have their non-creative job, the thing that they do for money. And then they do their creativity in the evenings or the weekends or whatever. And that’s great for some people, but it is a very different energy if you feel everything you do is creative but in a different way, that’s quite different.

EARL: Yeah. And I feel that some people that are not in traditional creative work… I was chatting to a friend of mine who’s a lawyer, and she does the least creative thing. I’m ‘But there’s so many creative elements in there.’ I feel like creativity has been so limited. It’s in the way that you deal with your clients and speak to your clients. It’s in the way that you set up your contracts, the words that you use. And I feel that creativity has become so boxed in. I mean, before people were scientists and artists.

MARK: Right. Right.

EARL: Now it’s like we have to choose one.

MARK: In Leonardo’s time, it was just all the same thing.

So there you were at the end of 2019, looking forward to 2020 with a really great balance it sounds between the different strands of your work. And then you say there’s something else came along.

How did you first become aware of that something else?

EARL: Where I became aware of it was obviously, through the news that was running around, what was happening in China at the time. And at that time it was ‘There’s no way it will make it to anywhere else around the world.’ I thought that was the only place it’s going to be.

MARK: Thank goodness it’s far away!

EARL: It’s far away. You know what I mean? Lo and behold, I think it was March. I can’t remember the exact date. I know that I have it in a write-up that I did. We had our president speak to the nation and he made the announcement to say that obviously, Corona has made its way to South Africa, and we’re going to be on lockdown for a certain time. And at that time, I think much of it was three weeks or if it was a month. I can’t remember the exact time.

I was pretty calm at that point, the very first point. Because I was ‘Okay, cool. it’s a good break. It’s a forced break, one that I need, and it’s a bit awkward that it’s happening in the beginning of the year, but I’m going to take this break and I’m going to do what I need to do.’ And it was only after the second announcement that I realized how serious this was, and how it began to not only just impact my work but impact just the way I viewed myself, my psychology, like just impact my movement.

But during that first three weeks, we were obviously, on lockdown because I was living in the city at that time, in Joburg CBD. And it’s interesting, this city was heavily policed. So it felt like there were border controls. Like when we wanted to exit certain spaces during a certain time. I was living in an apartment block and it was heavily monitored. So you couldn’t just get out if you wanted to get out, you needed to chat to security. We had these four levels of parking lots, and I spent my time basically running and exercising and skating in the parking lot. That’s what I started doing the first three weeks. And then, like I said, after the second announcement, that’s when I started to realize how serious this really is.

MARK: What was the second announcement? What did they say?

EARL: The second announcement, again, details are failing me, we were going to be on another extended lockdown, with a lot more serious protocols, etc. That’s when I realized that one, I couldn’t work. I literally couldn’t work. So, all the plans that I had made literally went down the drain. And let me actually go back. Before the lockdown was actually announced, because we heard the president was going to obviously speak, I had a conversation with my family in Cape Town and they were ‘Hey, do you want to come home, before they shut things down completely?’ And I was ‘No.’ I was toying around with it, but I didn’t know what I was going to do back home because all my connections was in Joburg. So if anything was to happen or anything was to open up, Joburg would be it.

I decided to bite the bullet and decided to stay. I realized that I couldn’t work. there was nothing else that I could do, and I felt like I was going slightly insane and having a little bit of a mini-breakdown during that time. What I decided to do was to put in a serious routine. So after that second announcement, I felt like I was losing it a bit because one, my livelihood was dependent on things being open. I couldn’t shoot, I couldn’t work, I couldn’t do any of these things. What I then decided to do was to really just put in a crazy routine. A daily practice of… I would get up at 6:00 in the morning and start journaling then start reading. From there, I would work out. And I think it was a book, Robin Sharma’s book, The 5 AM Club that I actually started reading during that time. So I was in. I was ‘This is what I’m going to do.’

MARK: Great.

EARL: Lockdown or no lockdown, I’m going in. And yeah, decided to just go head in. And then on top of that, I decided to build in a daily practice of shooting. So this came from, I think 2017, I really started shooting every single day. So whether it’s one image a day or even if I’m sick and I’m in my bed, I grab a shot of the light coming through the window.

MARK: Really?

EARL: So I really just made this… Yeah.

MARK: That’s hardcore. No sick days!

EARL: No sick days. I had off days, but I really had off days. Like even with me now, I have my camera with me while doing this interview. I needed to make it a habit and a way of being able to express myself. Because what I found was that sometimes I find that journaling through words was something that didn’t fit for me during times, and photography and the art of making pictures really just became a way for me to see my space in a different way. So I would document my space within my apartment. And then, like I said, luckily, I was able to go outside, not outside, but within the parking lot. So I started documenting the parking lot, documenting things over the wall. People that are cruising in the streets. They were not allowed to be there, but we have a big homeless population. So I made sure to document people in spaces, but moving through shadows and moving through spaces.

And that made me ask very particular questions about who’s in the shadow. There were just certain things, who’s in the shadows that exist within our public? Thinking about light and form. I started seeing my building in a very different way because every day I would go past the same pillar and see the light hit it in a particular way. And then go there maybe two hours later and see the light reflecting against the wall in a completely different way as well. So I would use the walls and the wall as my subject. And use the natural light as this relationship or this collaboration between light and materiality.

MARK: Wow. Okay. So there’s a couple of things I want to pick up on here. One is the value of the routine. And this is something, as you were talking, it brought it back to me that for years and years, I’ve been working with freelancers and also I’ve been through this myself with the question, what do you do all day when you haven’t got a boss? When there’s no clock-in, clock-out guide? One thing I came to realize, and I’ve been saying to clients for years is you need to put some hard edges in your day because, you need to have that kind of routine. Otherwise, it’s so easy to lose yourself and lose the day and lose your motivation and energy. And it strikes me how important that was in lockdown specifically in your description that you said, ‘Okay, this is going to be the routine that I’m going to put in place for myself.’

The other thing that I’m even more interested in is, it sounds like even though you were so restricted in space where you could go, you couldn’t see people, you weren’t able to interact. Because it strikes me that word interaction is so important to your work from earlier in the conversation. That was all taken away from you. But from what it sounds like you were using the camera to investigate and to interrogate in minute detail, in some cases, your environment that it was giving you a… I don’t know.

As you described, it sounds like you got really absorbed in looking at the world up-close like this or from this very restricted angle. Is that accurate?

EARL: That’s really correct. I think that you are on point. Yeah, it really gave me an opportunity to see myself in a different way. And also to step outside of myself because I feel that it was an important way for me to step outside of myself because if all I’m going to be doing all day is just thinking about the situation that I’m in and how things are not working… And mind you, I wasn’t making any money during that time. So it was a really tough seat. It was a tough time. A time where I had to ask for help, in order to just make it through.

So I’m grateful that I could touch base with family and say, ‘Hey, I’m struggling.’ And that kept me afloat here and there. And I was also able to, from the work that I shot… Because all I did was every day, follow the bread crumbs, follow what I’m feeling, go dig, dig, dig, dig, shoot, see. I used that work, and I actually started to make a bit of money online selling it through Instagram.

MARK: Oh, really?

EARL: I started selling images. Yeah. That’s how I stayed afloat during lockdown.

MARK: Wow.

EARL: And that was the first part of lockdown before things started to open up here and there. Then I got involved shooting some news segments for Deutsche Welle, a German-based news agency, and they have a… how do I call it? I think field reporters or reporters based all around the world. So one of the reporters is based in Johannesburg and he basically produces these new segments, and whenever he needs a camera operator or an assistant to come on board or someone to operate a stabilizer, that’s when I come on board and do. So that’s what I’ve been doing quite often for them.

Because of people seeing what I was doing and the way that I was shooting, they were interested in how I’m redefining my space within lockdown. What am I doing different that other people are not doing? And it’s not that I was better off, it’s just that I have to do this in order to survive and to come out better on the other side. And I was just pushing because I think life teaches you that sometimes you don’t know what lies ahead, but all you got to do is just follow the process. So that Lockdown Series that I shot is also helping me to stay focused in this part of my life right now in terms of following the process.

MARK: And again, it sounds like that this was something that you reached for instinctively as an artist, almost to keep yourself together during this process. But there was also a component where you were sharing it, putting the images out, helping other people make sense of their situation. And you were even able to sell them and create new opportunities for your freelance work through that. So it really worked on both sides of that equation.

EARL: One hundred percent. For me, another thing that also stood out was community. Made me realize how important community is. I had friends that I couldn’t connect with every morning, every afternoon, every evening. Having a space to share. When we’re doing suppers, we’re doing video calls and doing suppers together. I was so appreciative for technology and what it offered me. And it also just showed me and taught me how I can make new friends online organically, and with intention, and also with integrity. So, community was also such a big foundation that really kept me through because I don’t know if I would’ve been able to carry on for that long without my community.

MARK: Can you say something about how you were able to make? Because you said you made friends organically and with intention and integrity. And I think even in normal times people find this a bit of a struggle online.

EARL: Sure, sure.

MARK: How did you do that?

EARL: I guess that you can connect with people that share. I would connect with people that would share online. I would connect with their work first, and mostly follow the hashtags, follow the bread crumbs and see what people are putting out there, and use that as a point of touching base and saying, ‘Hey, I really appreciate your work. Is it possible that we can stay in touch?’ That’s one aspect. And I really love music. So what I’ve started doing is connecting with people that are into music as well. And then it would be this organic way of sharing on a daily basis or sharing every week. And what I’ve noticed is that that has created really strong friendships.

Because music is so transcendent, it speaks different languages. It’s not only grounded or rooted in one way of communication. I’m not sure if it answers the question, but that’s the way that I’ve been connecting. And maybe it’s connecting through culture. Because there’s always something that needs to connect you to the person. So if I know that someone listens to a particular kind of music, you can really tell something about who they are and the layers that exist, because in order for someone to discover this kind of sound or this kind of style of photography, it’s weird.

I shoot a lot of weird abstract images, and then there was a guy in the Netherlands, I can’t remember his name now, but I have him on Instagram. I touched base with him because I started looking for abstract photographers. And it was these connections that I started seeing within myself first, connecting the dots within myself and started seeing outside in the world and started seeing ‘Hey, these are people that, I could potentially be aligned to and then I could potentially connect with.’

MARK: How has all of this developed since that initial period of lockdown? And also just to maybe put us in the picture, how did the lockdown pattern evolve in South Africa?

EARL: So, as lockdown went on and took its course, things were not completely open yet. I started working because of the work that I’ve been pushing online. And some of the news work that I’ve done before for Deutsche Welle, DW, there was a friend that I recall that commented on one of my images and then we immediately just touched base and I was ‘Hey, what are you doing? Are you available maybe to do a segment on maybe your lockdown experience?’ And that’s what kind of led me into the new space again. Basically, he interviewed me on my experience of lockdown, the work that I was shooting, and all of these other things that I was doing and what I was doing to stay afloat and to cope with everything. And it was through that interview that opened up work opportunities that actually continued throughout the lockdown period until the end of last year, that really helped me to stay afloat.

I realized that community’s such an important thing. And the online community was such an important space to be a part of in order to show people what you’re getting up to, to show people your work. And as things progressed, the lockdown started calming down a little bit more. So things became slightly open, but there wasn’t a lot of productions happening at that point. But then I started getting into doing a lot of Covid-y content. Going into corporate shooting, Covid corporate videos as a means of communication tools to the employees. So that’s what really also kept me busy during the time. And still throughout that period still shooting. I actually traveled quite extensively during the Covid period doing a lot of new segments with Deutsche Welle, like I said, which also really assisted and aided me to get out there and to have work.

So, there was a big shift for me when I realized that, even though I was getting work, there was a lack of consistency and there was a lack of control that I had in determining how I could run my production company or what I could do. And obviously, throughout that period, I was doing my art.

And I actually decided to set up, an online… I see it as a residency now, but an online collaboration between two artists. One was a contortionist and one was a poet. And what I had them do was respond to three of my images. I actually didn’t mention this. A part of some of the lockdown work was I took part in an online exhibition with a gallery in Johannesburg called BKhz Gallery. And three of my pieces was showcased on their platform. And then what I did was during the exhibition, I decided to collaborate with two artists, as I mentioned, one contortionist, one poet, and I asked them to respond to my work. Some of the money that I made from selling my prints, I actually made sure to pay them for their collaboration. It wasn’t much. But I was ‘We’re really not working and you’re giving me your time and you’re giving me your energy, and you’re actually pouring into this.’

So I paid them for their contribution. And it worked in a way where they, every week, I think we did it for like a month or two, but it extended for a little bit. So every week, every second week they will send me journal entries like a voice note, saying where they’re at within their process, reflecting on the images, what are they gaining from that? Because essentially, the three images or the title of the three images were called Re-definition. I had them think about how they’re re-defining themselves, their space within the Covid situation, within the pandemic. And that was a lot of fun. Toni Stuart did the Soundscape. She did the poem and then Conway did the movement, the dance. And then Toni was actually the one that put the video together, layered the sound with the video. And then I just put the final bits and bolts together, but it was such a beautiful and fun project to work on.

MARK: It’s mesmerizing that final video.

EARL: Thank you.

MARK: I will link to it. It’s called, Re-definition, right? And I’ll make sure we have a link in the show notes so folks can go and watch it. So basically, you’ve got spoken word poetry over footage of this.

Is it Conway, the contortionist?

EARL: Oh, yeah.

MARK: He’s almost like the frame of the film, it’s like a box that he’s inside. And the range of movement that he comes up with is extraordinary. I won’t say too much, but it really feels like it resonates with the poem as well.

That was a beautiful thing to do, Earl. To connect people and start making your work in that way, in the midst of all of this.

EARL: It really was. It felt that I got so much from that. Conway, his artist’s name is Flexpression. Hopefully, he doesn’t mind me calling him Conway! Flexpression. Working with them, it was such a joy, challenge, it was really a relationship because as they were looking at the work and as they were needed to respond with the work, there’s a tension that takes place, especially having to produce during a pandemic and stay productive and do all these things, it’s hard.

MARK: Yeah.

EARL: It wasn’t the easiest thing, but I commend them for pushing through. I commend them for showing up the way they did. Because I know that that project is something that I’m thinking about now, this year, in terms of the work, the way that I want to work. So I owe a lot to that peer and what they gifted me with. To also realize that my work has value. I can say that to myself and say that for myself, but without the viewer and the interaction with the viewer, there’s a disconnect. Once again, that interaction is so important.

MARK: Looking back on this whole period, one of the themes of this season is, I really hope that given what we’ve all been through, that we all come out of it with more choices and possibilities than we had before.

What would you say you have learned from the whole process and particularly anything that you say, ‘Well, I’m going to carry that forward in my future work?’

EARL: I think that one, follow the bread crumbs there. That just stays in my head. That’s like this pigeon that’s bobbing the head down.

MARK: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

EARL: Just picking at it. But still having enough headway to look around. Following the bread crumbs has been such an important thing for me, because now what’s happened, I started my honors in fine arts this year.

MARK: Great.

EARL: And there’s so much that has shifted. And that actually came through a conversation that I had with a friend of mine in 2020, who I also met online. We met offline first and then we reconnected online. And I think he was the one that brought up this, he liked my work and we were chatting, and I think I spoke to him in 2018 about wanting to study, and he just started reminding me, he was ‘Hey, have you thought about getting back into your studies again?’ And I was ‘Yeah, but I don’t know how, how am I going to afford it?’ All of these excuses. So lockdown essentially gave me that opportunity to really reflect on, what is really important to me?

2021 was when we picked up the conversation again and he was ‘Yo, it’s now or never.’ And because I had that process of following the bread crumbs and not really knowing what lies ahead, yeah, I decided to take the plunge to apply, send in my work, and I got accepted to study this year.

MARK: Fantastic.

EARL: Yeah. I’m, again, in a space where I’m in deep waters, but what I know is that I need to follow the bread crumbs and I need to follow that process. Because now I’m having to develop a new body of work that is in line with my research, and trying to figure out, within this new world, how do I make this happen? But I go back to that same thing, follow the bread crumbs, follow the process. So I’ve learned to stay committed to that when I find my back against the wall.

MARK: There’s real trust in that, isn’t there?

EARL: Yeah.

MARK: It’s going to lead to something bigger, even if you can’t see it.

EARL: That’s the thing. I think sometimes it leads to clarity as well. And I think that that’s the most important thing, clarity about what I’m trying to do, what is my intention? And I’ve seen it in every single stage, seen it with the body of work that I created when I was doing my residency with Amplify Studios. I didn’t know what the work would look but I knew that I needed to trust the process. And certainly, it’s not easy. Trusting the process it’s not an easy thing. And I know it’s easy for me to say, but even till today, I’m struggling with that idea, but I go to studio almost every day, and I’m ‘Cool, I need to work on this idea and start to develop it further.’ And trusting that that will connect to something else in the future.

MARK: I think the bread crumbs have done a pretty good job. Well, you’ve done a pretty good job of following them through. This has been an amazing story, Earl. Thank you so much.

EARL: Thank you. I appreciate you. Thank you so much, Mark.

MARK: I think this would be a great moment, Earl, for you to share your Creative Challenge for our listeners. If you are listening to this, and if you are new to the show, then this is the point where I ask my guest to set you, dear listener, a creative challenge. And the challenge is something that you can do or get started on within seven days of listening to this conversation. It’s going to be on the theme of the interview. And it’s designed to stretch you creatively, maybe professionally, and very likely also as a person.

Earl, what is your Creative Challenge?

EARL: Perfect. I think it’s linked. It might not be one challenge, it might be linked together. The first thing is to not put too much pressure on yourself surrounding the idea or your craft that you’re working on. That’s the first thing. And maybe this is surrounding the idea of play.

My challenge is whatever your craft, whatever your mode of communicating is, if you’re a photographer, if you’re a poet, gift yourself time to play each and every single day with your craft.

Go to that space with no pressure on yourself, or try to not put pressure or apply place on yourself. And utilize that space of play for the next month or even two months with not any expectation but to play.

MARK: Right.

EARL: I don’t care where you do it or where they do it. They can do it at home. It would be interesting for play to happen in different spaces, but use your craft as a form of play. And then maybe what we can do is they can contact you or me within the next two months and see what that has developed into. Allow the play to speak to you, essentially.

MARK: That would be lovely. I tell you what, the comments are always open on the show notes after this interview for at least 30 days. Sometimes it closes down because of spam. But if you are listening to this and within 30 days you would like to leave a comment to tell us, or show us what you’ve been up to, that would be a lovely thing to do.

EARL: I’m also thinking that the play doesn’t have to be… don’t put a time limit to it. Whether it’s two minutes of play because that’s all you have time for because your kids are waking up. 20 minutes of play in the evening, whatever it is, create a world where you can really just get lost in. I get lost in my world through music as well. So that’s something that really gets me tuned into my own language of play. So for me, it’s going out to shoot and reviewing those images, playing music, printing those images on little Polaroids and sticking it into my book. And just thinking about what is my eye seeing, because that frames every part of my journey and frames my life in the way that I see the world. And that has an impact. So play, play, play.

MARK: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Earl. I’m sure plenty of people are now listening and thinking, ‘I want to see more of this man’s work.’ So where can people go to find you online?

EARL: They can either check my website, which is www.earl-abrahams.com. And then all my details are on there. I think that even in the show notes, I’ll put my website, my Instagram handle. Because Instagram and my website are the only platforms that I really interact with. And then if they want to stay in touch, they can contact me on my email, which is abrahams.O1@gmail com, but I’m sure that will be in the show notes as well.

MARK: Brilliant. Okay. We will make sure that is all in the show notes and maybe some nice images and videos from your work. Thank you so much, Earl. It’s been a really inspiring conversation.

EARL: Appreciate it. Thanks so much, Mark, man. It means a lot.

Each episode of The 21st Century Creative podcast features an interview with an outstanding creator in the arts or creative industries.

At the end of the interview, I ask my guest to set you a Creative Challenge that will help you put the ideas from the interview in to practice in your own work.

And in the first part of the show, I share insights and practical guidance based on my experience of coaching creatives like you since 1996.

If you’d like my help applying the ideas from the show to your own situation you are welcome to join us in the 21st Century Member’s Group.

This will give you access to Goal-setting, Accountability and Q&A videos, as well as other exclusive insights and glimpses behind the scenes of the show. Due to the pandemic, membership is currently on a pay-what-you-want basis.

Your membership fee will also support the podcast and help to make it sustainable.

Become a Patron!

Make sure you receive every episode of The 21st Century Creative by subscribing:

The post Lockdown Series: Windows on a Changed World with Earl Abrahams appeared first on Creative Coach | Mark McGuinness | Since 1996.

• Mark’s Pandemic: Poetry, Podcasting and Pressure
• From Tattoos to NFTs with Ichi Hatano
• Taking Deep Work Online with Laura Davis

Today we kick off Season 6 of The 21st Century Creative, the podcast that helps you thrive as a creative professional amid the demands, distractions and opportunities of the 21st Century.

The theme for this season is CREATIVE DISRUPTION. Every episode will feature an interview with a creator whose work was disrupted by the Covid-19 pandemic, and who rose to the challenge by doing something new and different in response.

Our first guest is Steven Kunis, a theatre director whose new production was put on hold when the Coronavirus hit London, and who hated the idea of putting the stage show on Zoom. So instead he created a brand new show, blending elements of cinema and live theatre.

In the first part of today’s show I introduce the CREATIVE DISRUPTION theme.

This is the first season to have a theme, and the reason is, that in the last two and a half years, we’ve all been massively disrupted by the Covid 19 pandemic. Not only the human tragedy of millions of lives lost, but also the social and economic damage caused by the virus and our attempts to control it.

In particular, the pandemic has had a devastating effect on many sectors of the arts and creative industries, and on the lives and livelihoods of creative professionals like you and me.

So I am using this season as a way to pause and gather our breath and see what we can learn from what we’ve been through – and to give you some inspiration and ideas for not just surviving but also thriving in the new landscape that we find ourselves in.

So I have assembled a lineup of guests whose work was severely disrupted by the pandemic, but who responded by doing something new and creative.

I have deliberately focused on the arts and creative industries that have been most disrupted – including theatre, music, TV and film production, in-person live events and experiences.

I also did my best to get a global perspective on the crisis. I’m aware that the pandemic played out in different ways in different parts of the world.

So I cast my net wide and I’m pleased to say that I have stories from creatives in seven different countries spread across five continents.

My guests include:

It took a lot longer than usual to put this season together, but I’m pleased with the results and I hope the extra time and effort will be worth it, in terms of helping us all to glean some learnings from the experience we have all been through.

Steven Kunis is a Greek-American theater and opera director, currently based in London. He is the founding artistic director of Panorama Productions, a company committed to international collaboration in the fields of theatre and music.

In 2021, his UK Premiere production of Young Jean Lee’s STRAIGHT WHITE MEN at Southwark Playhouse was nominated for Best New Play at the Off West End Theatre Awards, and Steven himself picked up a nomination for Best Director along the way. It was also named by Sam Marlowe at The i newspaper as one of the top ten theatre events of 2021 and garnered four-star reviews in The Evening Standard, The Guardian, The Times, The Arts Desk and The London Theatre Guide.

Steven was previously nominated for Best Director at the Off West End Theatre Awards in 2019, for his production of Asher Gelman’s play AFTERGLOW at the Waterloo East Theatre.

He is an ongoing member of the Young Vic Genesis Creators Network, and in 2020 was named an Emerging Leader by the Clore Foundation.

Steven says that he aims ‘to make theater that allows us to feel closer to one another, and to collectively imagine better possibilities for how we might all get along’.

His commitment to bringing people together in the theatre meant that when the pandemic first struck, he was sceptical of the idea of moving theatre productions online. So he put the production of STRAIGHT WHITE MEN on hold.

But he has always had a creative approach to constraints – and in response to the closure of theatres he came up with a completely new production, ROCKY ROAD, based on a script by Shaun McKenna and combining theatrical and cinematic techniques.

My wife Mami and I watched the play online and found it gripping, in a way that felt much more like watching live theatre than streaming TV.

ROCKY ROAD received glowing reviews from The Guardian, The Upcoming, A Younger Theatre and North West End.

And when restrictions were relaxed and theatre returned to the stage, Steven and Panorama were in the vanguard, with the revived production of STRAIGHT WHITE MEN.

At Steven’s invitation I went to see the play at Southwark Playhouse, very close to Shakespeare’s old stomping ground. It was my first experience of live theatre since the pandemic, and it was a really intense experience – not only because of the quality of the play and the production, and also, as we say in the interview, because of the cocktail of joy tinged with fear that we all felt as we crowded into the theatre once more.

In this conversation Steven talks about his unusual start in theatre, and describes the (ahem) rocky road through the pandemic for himself and his colleagues.

He unpacks the pros and cons of live performance vs online media. He also talks about the importance of looking for a creative opportunity in a set of constraints, and shares his thoughts on some new possibilities for theatre going forward.

This is a really inspiring interview, and it feels like the perfect place to start our journey through the pandemic in the Creative Disruption Season.

More about Steven on his LinkedIn page.

MARK: Steve, when did you first fall in love with the theatre?

STEVE: Well, I always had just the base attraction to it because it was one of the few things that I had fun doing, as a student, in school. But again, and it was always mainly a social outlet for me to… again, I went to a very sporty school where academics and arts were not as valued as, say, the sports scene. So I actually I didn’t really have my thing until I found that space, I think it was a production of Inherit the Wind, where I think I played a member of the jury and just made funny faces here and there. The drastic reveals that were going on in whatever scene we werae doing.

I don’t think that was when I caught the bug though, just because I felt that was a very fun experience for me. And again, my parents who came from working class immigrant backgrounds, it was not the type of path… you wouldn’t even begin to consider as a career, let alone if it was something that interested you enough to pursue in such a serious way. I actually went to college, for all intents and purposes, to be a scientist.

MARK: Oh, really?

STEVE: I studied neuroscience. I studied neuroscience in my undergrad and found immediately still that there was an enormous theatre scene that I could still pursue in a very fun way. And then, basically, I ended up taking a theatre class where, again, I thought I would just take this as a fun elective class but really changed my approach to art making, in a sense.

But so, basically, by the end of my 4 years of college… again, at this point, I had been ushering for the American Repertory Theatre, I’d seen amazing productions by the Wooster Group, these are experimental theatre companies in New York, like Elevator Repair Service, the team… I remember this one production by Rachel Chavkin called Natasha Pierre in The Great Comet of 1812, which was this electro pop opera adaptation of War and Peace.

Or there was one of the most amazing productions I remember, it was called Woody Says. It was about Woody Guthrie, the American folk singer. And there were hootenannies after every show where basically the audience learned that there was this post-show activity that some audience members themselves had actually started after one of the shows. So, then more audience members kept bringing their own instruments to upcoming shows and then staying in the lobby of the theatre afterwards for an hour or so afterward just to create this communal experience of art making from the audience’s perspective, which I found, wow, so inspiring. You can create creativity for a community.

What I was so amazed at was the level of the idea of community as a theatre subject, which was so exciting to me. Not just the idea that we go to watch a story of a community on stage, to learn about things, but also the fact that those productions created communities of audiences and that really facilitated the creativity of that community to make meaning or camaraderie with the other people in the room with them.

Which just felt so counter culture to me in terms of everything I’d grown up with, especially in academic institutions where you’re very much made to feel like you’re on your own and life is about your own individual advancement and progression, to see something so antithetical and so meaningful, at least to me, in terms of my values, to see an art form whose prime subject was togetherness and how we can find ways to always reinvent how we exist together in a room was really inspiring.

MARK: Because that’s really counter to the myth, isn’t it, of the individual solitary genius.

STEVE: Absolutely. And that’s the main thing I learned as a creator. Because I think, again, I was always a very anxious kid and I always put a lot of pressure on myself to, I don’t know, either deliver on a problem set or a paper or even a theatrical production. And I think even going in as a first-time director you’re always expected to have all the answers.

But actually you don’t have all the answers, you can’t have all the answers, and really you shouldn’t have all the answers to what it is you’re working on. Because you have all these other amazing brains in the room to help tell the story, the story that you’re working on in a really innovative way.

And if you don’t lean on your other collaborators, then actually, I think, you make the place smaller than you. If I decide what this play is before I even do it and don’t use the vast intelligences of the people I’ve chosen to work with me, then what am I here to do except to tell you what I already know?

It was so freeing for me, as an artist, to say, ‘Oh, wait, there’s 20 other people in this room where I can find the best idea,’ but also to find better ideas in terms of anything that I could ever make on my own. Which was just tremendously freeing for someone who was very locked creatively. And I think I just found a space for myself where I got to be the person I wanted to be. Rehearsal became that sacred space where I could let go, trust others, and really learn and really open myself up to experiences that, as a person in the rest of the world, that didn’t really get to happen so much. And so, I’ve learned from my craft as much as I, hopefully, have contributed to it.

MARK: Okay. So, you discovered this sacred space of togetherness and discovery, but how did you end up transitioning that into a career or profession? I don’t know if you think about it in those terms, but that you’re actually putting on professional shows and this is your work?

STEVE: That’s the first thing I’d want to say is that, when I was starting out, I had no idea how I would do that. And someone told me once, and this was only about a couple of months ago, and I think it’s a really great piece of advice, is not think about what you want to do but what you want to be. Because the rest of it you’ll figure out then along the way, as long as you have that goal, the kind of person you want to become. Whether that’s a writer, a storyteller, a director. You can then fumble your way there, as long as you have that end point in mind.

I knew in my heart I really wanted to do that but I didn’t have the confidence or really the resource to go out and be a freelance artist, at that point. Which everyone knows, there’s so many things that have to fall into place really for that to be a sustainable path for you.

So, at the end of college, I ended up getting a fellowship to study in the UK at Oxford. And what I was trying to figure out… because, again, I didn’t have any proper training as a director and I didn’t have really the experience to go to drama school, at that point. But this fellowship, it was called Cognitive and Evolutionary Anthropology, which was a 12-month Master’s. And what it allowed me to do with that money was to basically create my own study investigating the neuroscience of theatre audiences. That program was all about evolution and what evolutionary benefits were conferred upon us through cultural habits like sitting around a campfire and listening to stories.

One of the takeaways from the study I did was basically listening to emotionally arousing stories and sitting in a room with other people while that was happening, it incentivised… or ‘incentivised’ is the wrong word but it cultivated what they called ‘the perceived sense of social bonding with others,’ how close you felt with the people you experienced that with, but then also collective creativity.

Essentially, if you would have someone watch this Benedict Cumberbatch film that was really emotionally arousing and you watched it before other people and then there was someone else who watched something that was just a fact-based documentary by themselves and put them all on these creative tasks together. The people who were under the more emotionally-arousing film watching condition and watched it with other people tended to perform better with their colleagues on this creative test than did the people who weren’t emotionally aroused and watched something by themselves.

It’s the reason that the Greeks basically made their citizens go to the theatre. To wrestle with issues of the state in a communal environment. And I think that was when I found fundamentally what about the art interested me was that collective-creative-enhancing world, that space where we could learn to think better together and exist together. Which I think, again, is so counter to a lot of the cynicism of our world, at the moment.

But anyway, going to answer your question about how I got into the industry… so, I think, at that point, I was doing all this stuff but realizing I was still making my own work in the basement of a pub theatre and really being pulled away from my research so much. I basically realized I was a veterinarian who wanted to be a dog, who was studying this thing for so long and realizing, ‘No, I just need to go out and do the thing,’ and I needed to stay in the country.

I needed to stay in the country and have a visa. Oxford had, and a lot of universities here have, so, for any artists who are not from the UK, think about this, it’s called the Graduate Entrepreneur Visa, I think they now call it the Startup Visa, where basically you can pitch to your sponsoring university an idea for any kind of company or social or economic enterprise that you think will contribute to the UK economy or UK life in some productive good way. I pitched my current company that I run, Panorama Productions, that was based around international collaboration in the theatre in the UK, post-Brexit.

The incentive was to stay in the country, make work necessity, breeding any ideas that I could have because I was, otherwise, quite stuck. I ended up getting sponsored and getting seed funding for my first set of shows. And then it became a really great stick, as opposed to a carrot, saying, ‘Well, you need to keep making your own work to stay in the country.’ And that became really the impetus for my own journey here, making work.

And again, this was all coming in the background of, as a starting out artist, I was trying to get residencies in the major theatres as an assistant director or associate director or any kind of learning capacity, and I just couldn’t get into any of them. Either I didn’t have the experience or it just didn’t work out for me, at that time.

This became a really amazing opportunity for me to basically, instead of getting in the room of someone else, being the room where I made my own work through Panorama. And that was how I started.

MARK: So, you have your own production company, Panorama. And if we could maybe fast forward then to late 2019, give us a snapshot of what you were doing at that point with the company, with your work, and what your plans were looking into 2020.

STEVE: Yeah, absolutely. 2019 was our first flagship project, which was The Refugee Orchestra Project. I had worked before that with a conductor named Lidiya Yankovskaya who was, and still is, I believe, the musical director at Chicago Opera Theatre. She started an ensemble called The Refugee Orchestra Project where basically, in whatever city they were in, Lidiya would gather musicians who were refugees to the United States or the children of refugees.

Lidiya came along and basically, through our various networks, found our new ensemble to create the debut of this orchestra project. We even had several members of the Syrian National Orchestra who had only just moved to the UK within a year of that production happening. And we presented our piece at the London Symphony Orchestra, St Luke’s venue, and that was basically the kickoff for our production. That gave us a really great network of supporters who were really interested and excited by our work.

MARK: And what happened next?

STEVE: Again, that was my first foray into directing professionally. Lidiya picked the repertoire of songs and then found a through-line narrative that would be able to connect that to a cohesive thing. But I thought, ‘I want to direct plays now, at this point.’ So, I directed a production called Afterglow at Waterloo East after, that went on for a couple of weeks. And then what I was most excited by, again, it was a play by an artist, that I so admired in college, named Young Jean Lee called Straight White Men. And it was at this point that I had the track record of a couple of productions that we managed to get that scheduled in at Southwark Playhouse for April of 2020. And that was the thing that I was really gearing up for quite a lot at the beginning of the year before disruption. And that ended up being postponed until very recently, as we know.

MARK: What was the first hint for you that this news story was getting so big that it was going to intrude on your work and this production?

STEVE: I first really realized that at the auditions for that play. We were auditioning in the week before the forced lockdown. When, basically, A, we lost so many people that were scheduled to audition because they had got Covid and they were very very sick, so, that we were thinking, ‘Wow, this is a lot of people. This is quite serious.’ And then also people coming into the room and not shaking hands, that was the first time I had gotten an elbow from somebody.

And again, in an art form, that is so contingent on collectivity, community, camaraderie. I mean we call ourselves ‘lovies,’ even if you’ve just met someone for the first time and you know they work in the theatre, you hug them. That’s just sort of the way, our weird subculture of humanity is that we’re very loving. Loving lovies, basically.

MARK: Poets don’t do that so much!

STEVE: Yeah, right. Too verbal. We’re expressed with our words. But no, we’re very much expressed with our… to see such an initial but very significant breakdown in the essential ways that we communicate in the theatre, that was the first time I’ve really felt in my body, ‘Oh, something is different.’

MARK: Right. And then what happened?

STEVE: And then… well, we carried on, that was what everyone was telling us to do. Just like as in 2021, carry on as normal because we don’t know… because this was before Boris Johnson had said, ‘Oh, don’t go to the theatre,’ or, ‘we’re going to shut down theatres.’ So, we still had our vested interest in making sure that this project could go off as safely as possible. And then we went into our recalls, I think in America we call them ‘callbacks,’ and our choreographer was ill with Covid. Or at least what she believed was Covid, at the time, because we couldn’t get testing. And again, I think only maybe five people showed up to that audition. But we still tried to carry on. And then, by the next day, the official lockdown had happened. And then I did not enter a rehearsal room in person again for 13 months after that.

MARK: Wow. We can all hear in your voice the warmth, when you talk about the togetherness, the connection, the community that you’ve experienced in theatre and that is the art form, that you’re so passionate about. And it really depends on presence, in a way, that a lot of art forms don’t.

What was it like to be suddenly cut off from all of that?

STEVE: At first, it was actually quite a relief. I’m a classic introvert. I found that, for me at least, as a director, I thrive on preparation. And I felt that, again, because at the end of 2019 and the beginning of 2020, I had a series of projects going on that I think I let past my fingertips in terms of how much preparation time I could give to those rehearsals. And I think I was just quite relieved to actually say, ‘Oh, I can get this right now. I can get it right, I can conceptualize my work in a more rigorous way. I can really think about the characters whose skin I’m trying to get into.’

So, actually, it was quite a lovely first 3.5 months really, even 4 months really, where… beautiful weather, I could go for walks. And yes, the world was burning outside but I had my craft with me. Which is, again, a huge fortune, as a director, because usually your only craft is working in a rehearsal room with actors. But I had that thing to look forward to on the other side of this.

And remember, at this point, we thought this was only going to go on 3-4 weeks, max 3 months. And so, then it really started to get quite difficult when, I think around September hit, and we thought, ‘Oh wait, this could be very long time before we can seriously consider safely making our work again together, as an ensemble or just even considering anything new.’ And again, this was also at a point where the industry was really falling apart at the seams. It was a disaster for freelancers. Again, I mean I was very fortunate, I had my partner and we lived in a house share where our landlords gave us half the rent off, at that point. But again, streams of income were extremely minimal. And it became an issue of just, ‘What do we do from day to day, let alone thinking about projects going on in the future?’

At this point, the Culture Recovery Funding had come out. But again, everyone in the industry was after this very small pot of funding really. It felt very much, at that point, like you were all applying for the same set of grants that everyone drastically needed, theatre support fund, Culture Recovery Project grants that, again, in the end, only very few people were able to properly benefit from.

And so, while the rest of us all had to stay in our house a lot of the time, I remember, at that time, lots of people were exploding their work online, taking shows and putting them on Zoom or on camera. And there was enough of an appetite that people would go to see the shows but there was always this sense of bleakness about it where it just wasn’t the same as the in-person experience. Someone said to me, ‘It’s a form of mourning.’ Because this idea that like, yes, we’re so passionate to get our work out but really… I mean because a lot of these things were shows that were taken from in-person to just straight directly online that weren’t built for that space. We’d lost so much, as creatives, in terms of our work but also our identity and our sense of community with one another that we were just finding whatever we could to get the work out there. At least that’s what I was seeing, in a period where I was just mostly sitting at home.

MARK: Yeah. And so, at what point did you start to think about pivoting or doing something different with your work? Because I mean you couldn’t do the production that you had planned for, prepared for. You were looking at all the online stuff and thinking, ‘Yes, but… ’ you have reservations about that.

What was your thought process around what you were going to do next?

STEVE: At that point, we were just trying to do what we could with what we already had, which was this play. Because there was a lot of talk about, ‘Oh, we can adapt new live streaming and finding new ways of doing all of that.’ And so, basically, with the theatre, we were programmed at, they had a set of three cameras that they were using and actually beginning to create some really cool stuff with their work. And we said, ‘Oh, maybe we can adapt our piece to fit this camera work.’ And again, we were very lucky that we had this foresight from the writer basically saying, ‘The play we’re doing, it’s a comedy.’ Because this was back at a point we still couldn’t have audiences in the theatre, saying, ‘I just don’t think having a comedy under the camera lens is really a good idea at all.’

So again, we were amongst the masses trying to take what we had done and put that under camera and saying, ‘Oh, actually I don’t think this is the right call. We just need to wait until some unknown day in the future where audiences can assemble again.’ And at this point, this is not from the business standpoint, but we basically promised the theatre that we would put a show. We thought we basically promised the theatre we would put a play into their slot. And obviously, theatres need to still be running in some capacity, at that point, just to keep their bases engaged. And so, we needed to find something very quickly that we could put in its place.

I was thinking, ‘Okay, what could work with no audience and just cameras?’ And that was where I got really interested in this, just film-noir kind of idea of something that’s more of a thriller, something more inherently dramatic that doesn’t rely on the audience energy so explicitly to work, what really hugs the screen format so well. And we’d asked around. I wasn’t reading and finding anything that really worked and we couldn’t really find any new plays that had come out that was really interesting to us. I asked my one friend, Shaun McKenna, ‘Do you have anything?’ and he said, ‘Well, no, I don’t. But I wrote this screenplay, about 15 years ago, that I didn’t do anything with, just never really worked out. What do you think?’

I read it and I was very captured. It was called Bodily Harm, at that point. I read this and I got so excited by it because it was basically I thought, ‘Oh, we can just cut the whole entire first half of this play and take that first half and integrate it into memory-based monologues throughout the entirety of this second half.’ And I thought, ‘This would be a great thriller in a single room that will make our heads explode and work great on a film-noir thriller-style stage.’

Then, through a series of edits, it became this piece called Rocky Road. A lot of things started to fit together then. We managed to get the theatre, we managed to get working with this actor named Tyger Drew-Honey, another brilliant actor named Kirsten Foster. And the team all fell into place with everyone who was just so hungry after so long to make the best work we could. It was the first time we were back into rehearsal, in March. And it was just like touchpaper, a really extraordinary process. I mean because, again, like this was about what, maybe a 2-hour-and-15-minute show. We rehearsed the whole thing in 12 days, which would normally really panic some prospective collaborators. Even in tech, I mean we had about 253 cues, which is quite a few in a tech process, in 9 hours of tech.

But again, the engine was revved up and ready to go for so many people. And it was just an amazing process and a great show that I was very proud of to have made by the end of the lockdowns basically.

MARK: I’ve seen the show, but for the benefit of listeners, tell us about the show that you put on and also the format that you put it on and how you felt that the show and the format worked together in a way that wasn’t just taking something designed for in a live theatre and then sticking that with a two-dimensional screen. Because you created quite a different experience, didn’t you?

STEVE: Yeah. It’s called Rocky Road. And basically, it’s a story about a woman named Zoe who shows up on this man’s doorstep, Danny, who’s the building manager of a building that she is now moving into. You quickly learn that, as in any good thriller, she is not who she says she is. And you find that, for some unexplained reason, this man has ruined her life 10 years ago and the ripples of crime and punishment have really affected both of them quite significantly over the last 10 years. She’s here to find out answers as to why he’s done what he’s done.

And when, at a certain point, she does not get the answer that really satisfies her… and, in fact, the answer she gets quite disturbs her, about the randomness of the world and how bad things can happen to others. She feels like she has to destroy what he represents, this unnerving world where being in the wrong place at the wrong time can have such catastrophic outcomes for you.

I felt we were in a place in the world that just felt very much like that, at the time. This idea of, ‘Why is this happening to us? How can we explain the Covid thing? Is it a lab thing? Is it poor government planning? We’re all locked in our houses.’ So many people’s life plans were just quite literally derailed. Some people wanted children and didn’t know when to work with that. Some people had creative careers they wanted to work towards. Some people had relatives that they wanted more time with. Or some people lost their own health as a result of these lockdowns.

I think the play really keyed into a character who was really struggling with so many things being so randomly thrown in her direction and really struggling to come to terms of existing with that. It felt very much of an emotional place that we were all in. And I just felt the intimacy of the camera. Because again, what’s happening is she’s going through the story, as you see in a typical play format, that’s where the camera is further away from you but then, as you start to get into these more monologue in between scene moments, the camera starts to be her friend and follow her as if it’s a diary of some sort. That you, as the audience, get to be in her private thoughts as a way for her to confide and express herself, find some sort of outlet for really what she just has as a deep deep rage at what’s happened to her. And then you feel for her, you cry for her, and you go on this journey as she… what’s the word for it? Spirals into what, ultimately, becomes a very devastating revenge story.

Now, you’re asking about the form of what we did. Our set was built in mind for all these typical filmic tropes that you could never accomplish in the theatre. So, we basically had four cameras set up into the space and the set itself was one room, for an apartment, but then through standard tricks of light became two different apartments and possibly the hallway between them. But then things like split screens, as one person’s on one side of the door and one person’s on the other side of the door, or tricks of appearances and disappearances that you couldn’t normally achieve on stage because of being able to guide not only where the audience was looking but how close or far away they were looking.

I think the form of that meant the content of the story but also introduced filmic conventions into theatre that weren’t possible before but still in a language that the audience understood. Which was quite exciting and quite new. And again, really, we felt like we were discovering something new that wasn’t just a play. And that was quite exciting. What was your experience?

MARK: Well, that absolutely chimes in with my experience. So, first of all, in terms of the theme and the genre, I think it’s interesting you said comedy is probably not where we’re all at right now. And so, you’ve got this film-noir thriller. Very claustrophobic but I mean it wasn’t a plague piece. Without any spoilers, it was a different theme, a different scenario. But it was certainly close enough to the sense of claustrophobia, being hemmed in and not being able to get out and pent-up emotions that it absolutely resonated for us.

Just for the listeners, Steve told me about the show and he said, ‘We’re doing it online, it’s a bit different.’ And so, Mami and I, my wife, we bought tickets and I remember one thing was it wasn’t streamed. It’s not like Netflix, it wasn’t at your convenience where you can just snack on it, turn it on, turn it off. We had to show up at a certain appointed time because that was when the show was going to start.

STEVE: It was live.

MARK: Yeah. It had a similar effect when you go to the theatre, you’ve got to go to the theatre. And if you’re late, they’re not going to let you in because you’re going to mess up everyone’s experience. So, there’s a sense that the audience has to show up in the right way. And I remember thinking we had to make sure our drinks and snacks were all ready and we could be there at the beginning. It brought a different quality of attention to endless stuff that we’ve been streaming during lockdown evenings.

It’s really interesting when you talk about bringing in filmic elements; I’m not consciously film-literate enough to be able to spot all of those tricks but I certainly had the sense that it felt like a live theatrical production but it was actually much more involving. And I guess that’s the film, the cinematic techniques that you’re talking about that you’d used.

I’ve got loads of DVDs of live theatre productions, and it’s great but they always leave you feeling it would’ve been better if I was there because, obviously, you’re more drawn into it. But this really did draw us in. I think I’ve probably enjoyed the theme more than Mami. It was pretty dark, let’s put it that way.

It was a really intense evening and we really felt that we had been on a journey, not exactly the same as going to the theatre but not a million miles away and it was quite different to sitting at home watching a movie.

STEVE: I think a lot of it was also happy accidents along the way, which I think is as any work of art. What mistakes or fun coincidences happen that make it what it is. Because, really, this play was written by a playwright who had that theatrical bent to his craft but wrote this originally as a film, meant to be made into a film. So, I think it already had, either subconsciously or consciously, embedded into the fabric of that story this natural attachment to a screen medium built into what Sean was… in a way, I think, almost the hybrid format that it was in was even, in a way, more powerful than even just a film experience alone or just a theatre experience alone.

After having gone through it all, I think it’s actually really hard for me to imagine that story existing quite as comfortably in either one of those two mediums on their own. We try and talk about it quite a lot but it’s just an ongoing conversation. And then, in terms of all the other things of like close-ups and split screens and stuff, that was all a matter of discovery in the rehearsal room, thinking… again, because we spent entire 13 months just watching Netflix. So, we all, consciously or subconsciously, had that film vocabulary in our heads, of what works and what doesn’t, that we brought with us into the room.

You always bring that baggage or experience with you. And it finds its way into your instinct that I think really paid off in all the right ways on this show. Which was, I guess, for me at least and my company, a really great send off to what was otherwise a horrible time in the pandemic.

MARK: I’m curious; necessity was the mother of invention. You did what you could, given the circumstances, and you came up with this hybrid theatre film live performance.

Is there anything of this that you want to carry forward into your future work or is it too early to tell?

STEVE: It’s always early. Maybe some other artists are more conscious about their decisions than I am, but again I always find that my decisions are accidents that come from, like you said, I think the only reason I even started my company was because I had to find a way to stay here in the country. I guess what I would say, and maybe as a lesson I would say for myself is just to whatever limitations you have, really lean into them and use those to your advantage. For us, the only reason this Rocky Road play existed was because we were basically told that it was a horrible idea to have our other play put under a live stream format and thinking, ‘Okay, what can we do now?’ We’re picking up the pieces from that. My company exists because I needed to find a way to not have the Home Office knocking on my door. Different people are motivated in different ways by different things.

What I would say to anyone is to actually say, ‘How can I use this to make what I otherwise do even better?’ That’s really hard a lot of the time saying, it’s a great way to say, ‘I can’t do this.’ I am very much a person who can be prone to pessimism and say, ‘Oh, I can’t do something because X, Y, Z,’ but that very thing, what does that allow me to do? What do I get to do because of this limitation? I can really flip a lot of things that I’m working on in myself as well to discover.

MARK: What about the response from audiences and also in terms of your career? Has it helped you by opening any doors there?

STEVE: Absolutely, yeah. It opened up doors in a way that you wouldn’t expect because normally a theatre piece, your audience is very much limited by the people in your geographical area who can see it. And so, for me it built all kinds of relationships with me. I was able to have colleagues in other countries see it. I’ve now developed a relationship with the English Theatre Frankfurt who was quite excited by what they had seen there. I would never have gotten a way for them to know my work, at least at that point, had it not been for something like that.

Even in California, a television producer had seen the play, based on a review we’d gotten in The Guardian, and approached us to talk about other possibilities of other types of screen adaptations using that kind of story, as well as other stories that we’d made in the past before. I never worked in screen or even thought about working in film or television before that. And even that has now been the beginnings of several conversations for us in terms of, not only just, ‘How do we adapt this story to screen work?’ but also, ‘How I can expand my practice into other media that was really necessitated by a pandemic?’

And then on a personal note it was the first professional production my own mother had seen. She lives all the way in New Jersey and she had no idea what I was getting up to it all the time while I was 3,000 miles away. So, I think that was also just quite an exciting experience for my own family who had always been very supportive but had no idea what I was about or was interested in creatively. No, that was something I was very proud of to entertain them, and they got a real thrill out of it and absolutely loved it.

And I think that was probably the most fulfilling outcome on a personal level. It was a great avenue for people to sort of see what I can do, our company can do, but also a way for us to expand our practice into other media.

MARK: Okay. And so, picking up on the Straight White Men Production, this was the one that had been halted when the first lockdown came. At what point did you start to think, ‘Okay, we may be able to think about bringing this back and getting back into the theatre again.’?

STEVE: We always waited. It was really useful to see other productions stumbling their way to finding sustainable models for how we could work in a Covid world. And I think this summer was a really difficult time but a really great triumph for theatre as well, in terms of finding new ways that, through testing, through isolation, and understudies that they could find a good way to make the show go on, so to speak. And it was in the summer then when we…

MARK: This is summer 2021 by this point?

STEVE: Summer 2021, exactly. And it was, at that point, seeing the shows, find their way through, that we gathered as much intel as we could as to how other people were doing, what they could, and ‘Okay, maybe we can do that now too.’ And also wanting to get the show on as as quickly as possible because it had been in the back of my mind now for about 2 years at that point. And then we, basically, announced the show in the September and then rehearsals began October and we performed all through November and December. And then Omicron hit.

MARK: Right. But you managed to finish your run just before Omicron came along?

STEVE: Just, again, I am one of the very lucky ones in this sense. I have not anyone in my company who’s got Covid, we’ve not had any Covid-related cancellations or postponements. There was an actor who was out for 4 days because of flu-like symptoms, and the terror of that was a lot. I think we were talking about this before, the level of background stress on the production, not just from the production team but also for the members of the company, the actors. It was a lot still through the whole year to think, ‘Just one case and it’s over.’

We were all in the theatre at least, again, because, 2021, a lot of us were back to work but it was still quite a difficult year in the sense that we were being told to go back to normal when it wasn’t normal. I am inspired all the time by people who still managed to find ways to make it work as the virus was sort of wreaking havoc on so many shows. It’s a real act of bravery to say, ‘I have the audacity to put a show on and make it happen.’

MARK: What was it like on the first performance with an audience?

STEVE: Well, it was very live! An audience member passed out actually on the very first performance. So, maybe they weren’t as ready to come back to the live experience.

No, the show actually had to stop halfway through and we had to basically take the entire company out of the space, which, again, is just so frightening for an actor being in the middle of a scene and having someone just plop right onto the stage in front of them in a very small theatre. But the entire audience, they came right back in and were just as enthusiastic to make that work happen. It’s not just the actors and the creators, it’s the audience who is so thrilled to come back. People passing out and all. But even audiences I think are quite on edge at the moment, so, you also have to take that into account.

MARK: I can relate to what you’re saying about audiences being a bit on edge. Because I came to see the production… I think was it November or early December?

STEVE: December.

MARK: This early December, right. And this was I think only my second trip to London in the two years. And the previous one I hadn’t been among any crowd beyond being on the Tube a bit. And I must admit, when I walked in and sat down in the middle of this crowd of people, I hadn’t been in that situation for almost two years. I had a moment of thinking, ‘Is this a good idea? Should we be doing this?’ But also there was so much joy in that room.

And it’s quite in-your-face, even the pre-show, without giving any spoilers. There was a lot of pumping music, let’s just say the visuals from the stage were quite stimulating, there was so much energy and joy. I remember people just applauding and being just thrilled to be there. And feeling that myself, it really brought home to me how much we’ve missed this and how fantastic it is to be in a live production. Something that I don’t think I’ll ever take for granted again.

STEVE: And you even went to a matinee. And matinees suck usually!

MARK: It was me, it was my energy! [Laughter]

STEVE: No, I just think it’s the general enthusiasm of the public assembling again. We’re built for that.

MARK: So, okay. As one of the first productions back after the big interlude… and I know there’ll be lots of people listening to this who are putting on productions or considering putting on productions, whether theatrical or musical or of other kinds, any advice or guidance for them, things to look out for in this new phase that we’re in?

STEVE: I’m just trying to figure out just as much as everyone else. It’s just what I said before; really be kind to the people in the room with you. Because again, they’ve been through just the same hell, over the last two years, as you have very likely. If not worse. Because I think a lot of people have had a very tough time. And especially for actors it’s so exposing to come back on a stage again. To create an environment that feels as safe and encouraging and nurturing as possible is the best thing you can do I think to make… because I think I always feel like the way the company of actors gets along is very much the energy that the audience experiences.

To create as much of a welcoming and exciting space for the actors will do that, will recreate that same experience for people like you who come to punt, basically. We need people to feel welcome and excited to be back. Especially right now as we’re all struggling to get back on our feet.

MARK: I absolutely felt that the minute I walked into the theatre.

STEVE: Yes. Done. I’m done, I can retire.

MARK: This would be a lovely point, I think, for you to set the listener your Creative Challenge. If you’re listening to this and this is the first time you’ve heard the show, this is the point in the interview where I asked my guest to set you, the listener, a challenge that will stretch you creatively and probably personally as well. It’s something that is on the theme of the interview and that you can complete or at least get started on within seven days of listening to this conversation.

Steve, what’s your Creative Challenge?

STEVE: I would say take 6 minutes and just write a list. A list of basically everything that you feel is a limitation to you, that’s getting in your way, that you feel like is stopping you from doing what you want to do creatively right now.

Write down whatever pops in your head. Don’t worry if it seems random or if it doesn’t make sense, just write whatever comes to you. Because you might be surprised what answers you find are getting in your way. And this could be inside of yourself or outside of yourself, everyone has a different relationship to what they feel is holding them back.

And then, once you’re done with that list, take one or two of those things and say, ‘Okay, how is this an advantage and how can I use that in my next venture?’

MARK: Fantastic. I love it. A really hard-won wisdom, I know this is in relation to the story that you’ve just told.

Steve, thank you. That has been really enlightening and inspiring. I’m so glad that you and your colleagues are back on stage, long may that continue.

Where can people go, first of all, to find you online and to find out about your upcoming projects? And do you have anything in the pipeline that you can tell us to look forward to?

STEVE: I’m part of the creators program at the Young Vic. If you just google me, you’ll find my name, my information, and contact info all there.

MARK: That’s Steven with a V and then Kunis is K-U-N-I-S?

STEVE: Exactly.

MARK: Right, okay. And what about upcoming projects?

STEVE: Right now I’m workshopping a new play by this writer named Andrew Thompson. He won the Theatre503 International Playwriting Award about 5 years ago. This is his second play now called Cuts, Cuts, Cuts, which is, basically, about a junior doctor, a man appears to her who is in a great deal of pain and she tries to help him and can’t touch him. It’s this magical realism story where actually they realize they have to learn the rules of how they can engage with each other, how she can help him, how he can help himself. And they start to fall in love then in this really at first touching but then very dysfunctional harrowing way.

What you soon realize it’s not just a story about a doctor and a patient or about a toxic romance, it’s about our relationship to the NHS and how in a world where we ourselves feel so oversubscribed or run down, how we could possibly even think to help someone else or give them what they need. Which, again, is another Covid-times thing that feels very pressing to me.

MARK: Very timely.

STEVE: And he wrote the play before Covid.

MARK: Really?

STEVE: Yeah, that metaphor of these two beings who cannot touch one another for some unexplained magical reason just came through Andrew’s subconscious and found its way and really resonating in the midst of a global pandemic. And again, I found that so exciting and prescient and really something. And we’re hoping to get that on at the Edinburgh Festival later this year.

MARK: Great. Thank you so much, Steve, for sharing, as I said, your very hard-won wisdom and your really inspiring response that you came up with to the constraints that you’re under. And as I say, fingers crossed that, from now on, the show will go on.

STEVE: Thank you very much. Yes, the show must go on, as they say.

MARK: The show must, and indeed it will.

Each episode of The 21st Century Creative podcast features an interview with an outstanding creator in the arts or creative industries.

At the end of the interview, I ask my guest to set you a Creative Challenge that will help you put the ideas from the interview in to practice in your own work.

And in the first part of the show, I share insights and practical guidance based on my experience of coaching creatives like you since 1996.

If you’d like my help applying the ideas from the show to your own situation you are welcome to join us in the 21st Century Member’s Group.

This will give you access to Goal-setting, Accountability and Q&A videos, as well as other exclusive insights and glimpses behind the scenes of the show. Due to the pandemic, membership is currently on a pay-what-you-want basis.

Your membership fee will also support the podcast and help to make it sustainable.

Become a Patron!

Make sure you receive every episode of The 21st Century Creative by subscribing:

The post The Rocky Road for Theatre through the Pandemic with Steven Kunis appeared first on Creative Coach | Mark McGuinness | Since 1996.

• From Tattoos to NFTs with Ichi Hatano
• Creative Disruption: How 12 Creatives on 5 Continents Rose to the Challenge of the Pandemic
• Mark’s Pandemic: Poetry, Podcasting and Pressure