What is a "Christian nationalist" and how do you know if you might be one?

That's the question Garrick Bailey and Timothy Paul Jones ask distinguished American historian Thomas Kidd. Along the way, Garrick and Timothy discover that the answer isn't nearly as scary as some people seem to think. Garrick does, however, suggest a rather scary image that involves Jesus, a bald eagle, and an American flag.* In the end, Dr. Kidd refuses to be distracted by Garrick’s bizarre suggestion and instead takes your intrepid cohosts to a place where few people seem to go: a calm and rational discussion of Christian nationalism and proper patriotism. Garrick and Timothy also manage to unearth a long-lost truth about Dr. Kidd's past predilections for Led Zeppelin.

During the Raiders of Church History segment, a deluge of dad jokes threatens to drown the dynamic duo, as a dead hand from Hungary slaps a live duck from Great Britain. Also, "Cüddïë Dück" would be a great name for an English emo punk band.

* ... which Garrick and Timothy would probably turn into a really hilarious image using an AI image generator and send to subscribers if Timothy wasn't so Reformed that he rejects the Seventh Ecumenical Council and steadfastly refuses to acknowledge images of Jesus.

Timothy Paul Jones, Ph.D., is C. Edwin Gheens Professor of Christian Ministry at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He teaches in the areas of family ministry and applied apologetics. He has authored or edited more than a dozen books, including Why Should I Trust the Bible?, The God Who Goes Before You, Perspectives on Family Ministry, In Church as It Is in Heaven, and Christian History Made Easy.

Garrick Bailey is lead pastor of Substance Church in Ashland, Ohio. Garrick was born in the frozen lands of Wisconsin but spent most of his life as a Texan. Before coming to Substance, he served as the director of adult discipleship and home groups at The Village Church. He and his wife Bethany have three children. 

The Jefferson Bible (article by Erin Blakemore, 2019)

Thomas Jefferson: A Biography of Spirit and Flesh (book by Thomas Kidd, 2022)

Who Is an Evangelical?: The History of a Movement in Crisis (book by Thomas Kidd, 2019)

St. Cuthbert's Ducks (article by Glen Cousquer, 2022)

St. Stephens Holy Right (article by Relics, 2023)

In the Light (song by Led Zeppelin, 1990 Remaster)

Christian History, Volume 2 (book by Thomas Kidd, 2024)

The Apologetics Podcast

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Theme music for the podcast has been licensed through Artlist.io and performed by Cunningham Manor. Brief excerpts of music played in each program are included solely for the purposes of comment and critique as allowed under the fair-use provision of U.S. copyright law. “The fair use of a copyrighted work … for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, … scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright” (U.S. Code § 107, Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use).

Heaven is multiethnic. Are you ready for that?

The Bible tells us that the congregation gathered around God's heavenly throne will be “a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language,” all singing the praises of the Lamb. God's intention has always been to delight for all eternity in a redeemed community of ethnic diversity.

Dr. Jamaal Williams, pastor of Sojourn Church Midtown in Louisville, has coauthored a book entitled In Church as It Is in Heaven: Cultivating a Multiethnic Kingdom Culture to show how Christians can pursue this vision. This work from Jamaal and one of your intrepid cohosts gives biblical warrant for multiethnic, multisocioeconomic, and multigenerational churches and shows how such communities provide a unique apologetic for the gospel—and that’s how this book intersects with The Apologetics Podcast. 

In this episode’s installment of Raiders of Church History, the dynamic duo throws a pig into combat against shards from Peter’s skeleton. Garrick Bailey and Timothy Paul Jones quickly recognize that the pig brings victory either way. If the pig survives the apostle’s bones, the pig is the victor and, if the pig dies, everyone gets bacon. Also, Garrick and Timothy learn about “tantony pigs,” and there should definitely be a British folk punk band named “Täntöny Pïg.”

Timothy Paul Jones, Ph.D., is C. Edwin Gheens Professor of Christian Ministry at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He teaches in the areas of family ministry and applied apologetics. He has authored or edited more than a dozen books, including Why Should I Trust the Bible?, The God Who Goes Before You, Perspectives on Family Ministry, In Church as It Is in Heaven, and Christian History Made Easy.

Garrick Bailey is lead pastor of Substance Church in Ashland, Ohio. Garrick was born in the frozen lands of Wisconsin but spent most of his life as a Texan. Before coming to Substance, he served as the director of adult discipleship and home groups at The Village Church. He and his wife Bethany have three children. 

Eruption (song by Van Halen, 1978)

In Church as It Is in Heaven (book by Jamaal Williams and Timothy Paul Jones, 2023)

Redemptive Kingdom Diversity (book by Jarvis Williams, 2021)

Your House (song by Sojourn Music, 2021)

The Apologetics Podcast

Urban Ministry Podcast

Theme music for the podcast has been licensed through Artlist.io and performed by Cunningham Manor. Brief excerpts of music played in each program are included solely for the purposes of comment and critique as allowed under the fair-use provision of U.S. copyright law. “The fair use of a copyrighted work … for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, … scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright” (U.S. Code § 107, Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use).

Kilroy Was Here!

During World War 2, “Kilroy Was Here” described a type of graffiti that American soldiers chalked on walls wherever they went.

In 1983, the phrase gained a completely different meaning.

That’s when the band Styx developed a rock opera and concept album—complete with a ten-minute dystopian science-fiction film—in response to accusations that Styx had encoded Satanic messages in their song “Snowblind.” These accusations led to legislation in the Arkansas State Senate requiring rock records that included backward messages to be labeled with warnings. Styx keyboardist and vocalist Dennis DeYoung envisioned a future in which rock music was outlawed and robots served fried chicken to former rock stars. In the rock opera that resulted from DeYoung’s vision, Kilroy became the surname of Robert Orin Charles Kilroy (whose initials, completely coincidentally, spell “ROCK”), a rock musician imprisoned in the not-so-distant future by the Majority for Musical Morality. Garrick Bailey and Timothy Paul Jones explore the history of Styx and consider how Christians should—and shouldn’t!—engage with artistic artifacts and cultural expressions. Along the way, your intrepid cohosts talk about backward masking and Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority, as well as a plexiglass toilet (surprisingly, "Plëxïgläss Töïlët" has never been the name of any rock band as far as we know). In a special segment of “Behind the Covers,” the dynamic duo considers a song that’s been covered far too many times and implores every musician listening to the program never to cover Leonard Cohen’s “Hallelujah” again.

Timothy Paul Jones, Ph.D., is C. Edwin Gheens Professor of Christian Ministry at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He teaches in the areas of family ministry and applied apologetics. He has authored or edited more than a dozen books, including Why Should I Trust the Bible?, The God Who Goes Before You, Perspectives on Family Ministry, In Church as It Is in Heaven, and Christian History Made Easy.

Garrick Bailey is lead pastor of Substance Church in Ashland, Ohio. Garrick was born in the frozen lands of Wisconsin but spent most of his life as a Texan. Before coming to Substance, he served as the director of adult discipleship and home groups at The Village Church. He and his wife Bethany have three children. Garrick has been a PhD student for ten years but thinks it’s about time to quit. 

Mr. Roboto (song by Sytx, 1983)

Hallelujah (song by Leonard Cohen, 1984)

Hallelujah (song performed by Kurt Nilsen, 2006)

Hallelujah (song performed by Small Town Titans, 2019)

Hallelujah (song performed by Pentatonix, 2016)

Hallelujah (song performed by Tori Kelly, 2016)

Hallelujah (song performed by Styx, 2017)

Hallelujah (song performed by K.D. Lang, 2005)

Hallelujah (song performed by Willie Nelson, 2006)

Hallelujah (song performed by Neil Diamond, 2010)

Hallelujah (song performed by Eric Church, 2016)

Hallelujah (song performed by Tenille Townes, 2020)

Boat on the River (song by Styx, 1979)

Show Me The Way (song by Styx, 1990)

Father O.S.A (song by Styx, 1973)

Witch Wolf (song by Styx, 1973)

Hallelujah Chorus (song performed by Styx, 1973)

Lady (song by Styx, 1973)

Grand Illusion (song by Styx, 1977)

Snowblind (song by Styx, 1981)

Serious Issues Underlie a New Album from Styx (article by Stephen Holden,1983)

Kilroy Was Here (short film by Styx, 1983)

Every Square Inch (book by Bruce Ashford, 2015)

Biblical Critical Theory (book by Christopher Watkin, 2022)

Paradise City (song by Guns N' Roses, 1987)

Hunchback of Notre Dame (musical by Dennis DeYoung, 1996)

The Apologetics Podcast

Urban Ministry Podcast

Theme music for the podcast has been licensed through Artlist.io and performed by Cunningham Manor. Brief excerpts of music played in each program are included solely for the purposes of comment and critique as allowed under the fair-use provision of U.S. copyright law. “The fair use of a copyrighted work … for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, … scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright” (U.S. Code § 107, Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use).

This is the second half of an exciting two-part episode of The Apologetics Podcast. Garrick and Timothy are still adventuring through time with a second-century apologist named Aristides, exploring three key points in his apologetic that addressed those that were skeptical of Christianity in his day. Aristides understood that every Christian is an apologist—and that's the truth that your intrepid cohosts are doing their best to recover.

However, the dynamic duo doesn't stay put for long as they return to their DeLorean and launch into a perilous exploration of modern civic liturgies. Soon, Garrick and Timothy find themselves face to face with an intergalactic bounty hunter immersed in an age-old honor culture. Then, they confront the deeply theological commitments of Christianity that have persisted through the centuries, calling the church of today to faithful public practice of truth. The adventure ends with a look at the stars as they wistfully long for another season of The Mandalorian. And also, why didn't the members of any 1980s power metal band think of naming themselves "Böünty Hüntër"?

Timothy Paul Jones, Ph.D., is C. Edwin Gheens Professor of Christian Ministry at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He teaches in the areas of family ministry and applied apologetics. He has authored or edited more than a dozen books, including Why Should I Trust the Bible?, The God Who Goes Before You, Perspectives on Family Ministry, In Church as It Is in Heaven, and Christian History Made Easy.

Garrick Bailey is a Ph.D. student in systematic theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, studying Herman Bavinck and Roman Catholicism under the supervision of Gregg Allison.

"Brothers and Sisters, We Are All Apologists Now" (Southern Baptist Theological Seminary Faculty Address, 2023)

The Mandolorian (Lucasfilm Ltd., 2019)

This is The Way (Auralnauts, 2023)

Patreon Support

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Urban Ministry Podcast

Music for the podcast has been licensed through Artlist.io and performed by Cunningham Manor. Brief excerpts of music played in each program are included solely for the purposes of comment and critique as allowed under the fair-use provision of U.S. copyright law. “The fair use of a copyrighted work … for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, … scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright” (U.S. Code § 107, Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use).

In this thrilling two-part episode of The Apologetics Podcast, Garrick and Timothy go back to the future.

Or, perhaps more precisely, they go back to the second century for the sake of the future.

In the book The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, theologian Carl Trueman points out that the church's challenges of the second century A.D. provide one possible precedent for the struggles that Christians are facing in the present era. With that in mind, Garrick and Timothy travel back in time to see what contemporary Christians might learn from a second-century apologist named Aristides of Athens. It's basically like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, except without the whole debacle in the shopping mall. In this first episode of Garrick and Timothy's excellent adventure, your intrepid cohosts learn how ancient Christians did radical civic good without bowing to the civic gods.

The Raiders of Church History segment is the softest and weakest battle so far in this season. Basically, it consists of a silk flag being flopped against a piece of rope that was once the property of a monk. Along the way, Garrick mentions "elf spots." No one knows exactly what an elf spot is, but everyone agrees that "Elf Spot" would be a great name for an acoustic emo band that wears medieval outfits and plays music at Renaissance fairs.

Timothy Paul Jones, Ph.D., is C. Edwin Gheens Professor of Christian Ministry at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He teaches in the areas of family ministry and applied apologetics. He has authored or edited more than a dozen books, including Why Should I Trust the Bible?, The God Who Goes Before You, Perspectives on Family Ministry, In Church as It Is in Heaven, and Christian History Made Easy.

Garrick Bailey is a Ph.D. student in systematic theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, studying Herman Bavinck and Roman Catholicism under the supervision of Gregg Allison.

Born This Way (Lady Gaga, 2017)

Back to The Future (1985)

Patreon Support

theapologeticspodcast.com

Urban Ministry Podcast

Music for the podcast has been licensed through Artlist.io and performed by Cunningham Manor. Brief excerpts of music played in each program are included solely for the purposes of comment and critique as allowed under the fair-use provision of U.S. copyright law. “The fair use of a copyrighted work … for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, … scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright” (U.S. Code § 107, Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use).

In this episode, your intrepid cohosts learn why they need to get literate.

"Bible literate," to be exact.

According to author and Bible teacher Jen Wilkin, Bible literacy is a vital tool when it comes to apologetics—and "Bible literacy" is not the same thing as "biblical literacy." 

Biblical literacy means knowing about the Bible. Bible literacy requires knowing the Bible itself, and Bible literacy is part of what every Christian needs to be able to defend the faith.

In the process of getting themselves some Bible literateness, Garrick Bailey and Timothy Paul Jones talk with Jen Wilkin about why there are so few women apologists, why Timothy will never write another book about the end of time, and whether or not it's possible for there to be too many extended guitar solos. (Spoiler alert: there is no such thing as too many guitar solos or a guitar solo that's too long.) Jen offers to play xylophone with the rock band Queen, and Garrick reveals a heretofore-unknown secret about Jen's singing abilities.

In the segment known as Indiana, Jones, and the Raiders of Church History, the dynamic duo places a domesticated feline into battle against a king's shield. The cat survives, but only because of its longstanding concordat with Old Scratch himself. Timothy and Garrick also learn the word "strapwork," and "Strapwork" would be the perfect name for a New Wave of British Heavy Metal band.

Jen Wilkin is an author and Bible teacher from Dallas, Texas and the Executive Director of Care, Family, and Next Gen Ministries at the Village Church in Flower Mound, TX. She has organized and led studies for women in home, church, and parachurch contexts. An advocate for Bible literacy, her passion is to see others become articulate and committed followers of Christ, with a clear understanding of why they believe what they believe, grounded in the Word of God.

Timothy Paul Jones, Ph.D., is C. Edwin Gheens Professor of Christian Ministry at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He teaches in the areas of family ministry and applied apologetics. He has authored or edited more than a dozen books, including Why Should I Trust the Bible?, The God Who Goes Before You, Perspectives on Family Ministry, In Church as It Is in Heaven, and Christian History Made Easy.

Garrick Bailey is a Ph.D. student in systematic theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, studying Herman Bavinck and Roman Catholicism under the supervision of Gregg Allison.

Jesus (Queen, 1973)

More Than a Feeling (Boston, 2011)

Misquoting Truth (Jones, 2007)

Bohemian Rhapsody (Queen, 1975)

Patreon Support

theapologeticspodcast.com

Urban Ministry Podcast

Music for the podcast has been licensed through Artlist.io and performed by Cunningham Manor. Brief excerpts of music played in each program are included solely for the purposes of comment and critique as allowed under the fair-use provision of U.S. copyright law. “The fair use of a copyrighted work … for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, … scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright” (U.S. Code § 107, Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use).

You don’t have to be a jerk to be an apologist. 

In fact, if you’re being a jerk, you’re not doing apologetics in a biblical way, because biblical apologetics calls Christians to defend the faith in “meekness and fear” (1 Peter 3:15b).

So how can we do apologetics without being a jerk? One of the best ways not to be a jerk is to listen to 1980s rock, which is why your intrepid cohosts have included clips from Bon Jovi and Sammy Hagar-era Van Halen in this episode. (Fun fact: Jon Bon Jovi’s last name is actually spelled “Bongiovi,” and “Böngïövï” would have been an amazing name for the band.)

But you need more than 1980s rock to grow in meekness, and that’s why this episode goes far beyond merely reminding you of the greatness of Bon Jovi and Van Halen. In this second episode in a two-part series about where to begin in apologetics, the dynamic duo provides you with their final four points about apologetics—all of which can help you to do apologetics with gentleness and reverence while listening to Bon Jovi, which is the opposite of being a jerk. Here are the four points from this episode:

4. The life of a faithful apologist is marked by meekness.

Timothy Paul Jones, Ph.D., is C. Edwin Gheens Professor of Christian Ministry at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He teaches in the areas of family ministry and applied apologetics. He has authored or edited more than a dozen books, including Why Should I Trust the Bible?, The God Who Goes Before You, Perspectives on Family Ministry, and Christian History Made Easy.

Garrick Bailey is a Ph.D. student in systematic theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, studying Herman Bavinck and Roman Catholicism under the supervision of Gregg Allison.

Living on a Prayer (Bon Jovi, 1986)

There's Only One Way to Rock (Van Halen, 1986)

Systematic Theology (John Frame, 2013)

Reformed Dogmatics (Herman Bavinck, 2003)

Patreon Support

theapologeticspodcast.com

Urban Ministry Podcast

Music for the podcast has been licensed through Artlist.io and performed by Cunningham Manor. Brief excerpts of music played in each program are included solely for the purposes of comment and critique as allowed under the fair-use provision of U.S. copyright law. “The fair use of a copyrighted work … for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, … scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright” (U.S. Code § 107, Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use).

This episode begins with the infancy of Jesus and ends with his resurrection.

Garrick brings up the infancy of Jesus in the Raiders of Church History segment in the most awkward of ways. This episode is the first—and hopefully the last—time that "lactation" has ever been mentioned on The Apologetics Podcast. Timothy brings the battle to a premature end by hitting Garrick in the head with the Lindisfarne Gospels.

Your intrepid cohosts quickly forgive one another, however, and move on to make three key points about what apologetics is. This episode is the first in the two-part series about what apologetics is and how to do apologetics well. Here are the three main points in this episode:

(1) Apologetics is a defense that includes evidence.

As Garrick and Timothy unpack these three points, Billy Joel shows up to defend the Christians wrongly accused of burning Rome in A.D. 64, and Pink Floyd and Brian May prove Augustine of Hippo right about the resurrection of Jesus. The Karate Kid shows up too, but the dynamic duo isn’t quite sure why. It has something to do with the Papyrus font, and ”Päpÿrüs” would be a perfect name for a heavy metal band that translates its lyrics from fragments of ancient papyri.

Timothy Paul Jones, Ph.D., is C. Edwin Gheens Professor of Christian Ministry at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He teaches in the areas of family ministry and applied apologetics. He has authored or edited more than a dozen books, including Why Should I Trust the Bible?, The God Who Goes Before You, Perspectives on Family Ministry, and Christian History Made Easy.

Garrick Bailey is a Ph.D. student in systematic theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, studying Herman Bavinck and Roman Catholicism under the supervision of Gregg Allison.

The Apologist (R.E.M., 1998)

We Didn't Start the Fire (Billy Joel, 1989)

The Karate Kid (The Karate Kid, 1984)

Coming Back to Life (Pink Floyd, 1994)

Resurrection (Brian May, 1992)

Patreon Support

TheApologeticsPodcast.com

Urban Ministry Podcast

Music for the podcast has been licensed through Artlist.io and performed by Cunningham Manor. Brief excerpts of music played in each program are included solely for the purposes of comment and critique as allowed under the fair-use provision of U.S. copyright law. “The fair use of a copyrighted work … for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, … scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright” (U.S. Code § 107, Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use).

If they made apologetics action figures, Josh McDowell would be one of the figures in the first set. If they made apologetics trading cards, Josh McDowell’s card would be in a collectible foil pack. He has toured with the pioneering Christian rock band Petra, and his book Evidence that Demands a Verdict was selected by Christianity Today as the thirteenth most influential Christian book published after the Second World War. Now, he’s here with us on this very special episode of The Apologetics Podcast.

In 1991, "Losing My Religion" by R.E.M. was at the top of the pop charts, and Timothy was looking for evidence that Christianity was true. That's when two books that Timothy found in a library introduced him to apologetics. Those books were Surprised by Joy by C.S. Lewis and More Than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell. More than thirty years after Timothy first read More Than a Carpenter, Josh McDowell joins the dynamic duo to discuss his latest book How to Know God Exists: Solid Reasons to Believe in God, Discover Truth, and Find Meaning in Your Life (Tyndale, 2022). Josh also takes the time to reminisce about some of the ways that apologetics has shifted throughout his six decades of ministry. Along the way, he tells about his time touring with the Christian hard rock band Petra.

In the segment of the program known as Raiders of Church History, it's a medieval mammal against ancient metal in a contest so violent that you may want to cover your children’s eyes while they’re listening. The violence breaks out because your intrepid cohosts throw a resurrected lamb into combat against a set of ancient spikes. The contest culminates with a Mediterranean feast, complete with trout and mutton shish-kebabs. Also, “Spïkëd Lämb” would be an amazing name for a death metal band.

Josh McDowell is a Christian apologist, evangelist, and author. After studying at Kellogg College he completed his college degree at Wheaton College and then attended Talbot Theological Seminary. In 1961 he joined the staff of Campus Crusade for Christ International and shortly after he started the Josh McDowell Ministry. Of his numerous books, his best known titles are More Than A Carpenter, Evidence That Demands A Verdict, and Right from Wrong. More information can be found at his website here.

Timothy Paul Jones, Ph.D., is C. Edwin Gheens Professor of Christian Ministry at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He teaches in the areas of family ministry and applied apologetics. He has authored or edited more than a dozen books, including Why Should I Trust the Bible?

Garrick Bailey is a Ph.D. student in systematic theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, studying Herman Bavinck and Roman Catholicism under the supervision of Gregg Allison.

More Than A Carpenter (Josh McDowell, 2009)

Creed (Petra, 1990)

How to Know God Exists (Josh McDowell, 2022)

Beyond Evolution (Anthony O'Hear, 1997)

Evidence That Demands A Verdict (Josh McDowell, 2017)

Patreon Support

TheApologeticsPodcast.com

Urban Ministry Podcast

Music for the podcast has been licensed through Artlist.io and performed by Cunningham Manor. Brief excerpts of music played in each program are included solely for the purposes of comment and critique as allowed under the fair-use provision of U.S. copyright law. “The fair use of a copyrighted work … for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, … scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright” (U.S. Code § 107, Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use).

If anyone listening to this episode has questions about Josh McDowell's 2021 statements related to racial issues in the United States, you are encouraged to to read his apology and to watch this well-balanced video from Apologetics 315:

• "A Statement from Josh McDowell"

Welcome to the Apathetic Episode of The Apologetics Podcast! An episode focused on apathy probably seems appropriate to all of you who have noticed how apathetic Garrick and Timothy have been about releasing new episodes for the past few months. But that wasn’t actually due to anyone’s apathy! It was because Timothy needed to finish writing a new apologetics book entitled In Church as It Is in Heaven, which InterVarsity Press will release in June 2023. 

Now that the book manuscript is in the publisher’s hands, the Apologetics Podcast is back and better and more apathetic than ever! Despite this exciting return of new episodes, the dynamic duo refuses to get excited. This is, after all, the Apathetic Episode, which requires them to remain apathetic. This episode’s installment of the Raiders of Church History begins with a piece of fruit. In a moment so apathetic that it’s almost pathetic, Timothy tosses his pear at a dead head, resulting in a dull draw that makes staring at sleeping rocks seem exciting.

The apathy continues when Kyle Beshears reveals that his favorite rock group is Starflyer 59, a shoegaze band that barely qualifies as a rock band at all and happens to be the undisputed master of maudlin and apathetic music, though perhaps they wouldn’t have been so apathetic if they had added umlauts to their name. But Starflyer 59—or, as they’re known in a less apathetic parallel universe, “Stärflÿër 59”—is far from the most apathetic aspect of this Apathetic Episode because there is only one person in the universe more passionately committed to apathy than Garrick and Timothy, and that's Kyle Beshears. The topic of their discussion is “apatheism,” a term that theology professor Robert Nash coined in 2001 to describe people so apathetic that they don’t care whether or not God exists. Garrick and Kyle momentarily threaten the apathy of this episode when they begin talking about Mormonism and start to become almost excited. That’s when Timothy bravely but apathetically intervenes to restore the high levels of apathy for which this episode is destined to become famous.

Timothy Paul Jones, Ph.D., is C. Edwin Gheens Professor of Christian Ministry at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He teaches in the areas of family ministry and applied apologetics. He has authored or edited more than a dozen books, including Why Should I Trust the Bible?, The God Who Goes Before You, Perspectives on Family Ministry, and Christian History Made Easy.

Garrick Bailey is a Ph.D. student in systematic theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, studying Herman Bavinck and Roman Catholicism under the supervision of Gregg Allison.

St. Augustine's Pears (Petra, 1998)

Ya Right (Starflyer 59, 2021)

When You Feel Miserable (Starflyer 59, 1995)

Kyle Beshears

Apatheism (Beshears, 2021)

Patreon Support

theapologeticspodcast.com

Urban Ministry Podcast

Music for the podcast has been licensed through Artlist.io and performed by Cunningham Manor. Brief excerpts of music played in each program are included solely for the purposes of comment and critique as allowed under the fair-use provision of U.S. copyright law. “The fair use of a copyrighted work … for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, … scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright” (U.S. Code § 107, Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use).