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Trust is the most potent force underlying the success of every board. When trust is in the room, great things can happen. Yet it can be shattered in an instant, with a devastating impact on the performance and effectiveness of the board and, potentially, ultimately, a company's market cap and reputation. How can boards build and sustain trust in the boardroom and with stakeholders? When it is lost, what can boards do to regain it?

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards discusses trust with Professor Sandra Sucher, Professor of Management Practice at Harvard Business School and an internationally recognized trust researcher. "The Power of Trust: How Companies Build It, Lose It, Regain It" is her third book, based on two decades of research on global companies' best practices and the gray areas of business. 

"The board is pivotal in establishing trust"
Sandra starts with her opinion that boards are probably the most important contributor to companies being trusted. In the global environment, trust is a multi-stakeholder issue. 

"I'm more or less willing to take risks depending on whether or not I trust the other people in the room"
Research confirms that trust is built from the inside out. It isn't easy to be trusted by people outside an organisation if the people within it don't trust each other. A boardroom is a small group environment where lots of risk-taking is required, as people need to talk about difficult issues, and the willingness to do this depends on trust.

"The first thing that board members can do is just be clear on what it is that they're good at, what they're there for, and to make sure that they actually can do that really well"
Sandra outlines a formula or framework for the basis on which people trust. Firstly, individuals and organisations trust that the other party is competent, without which there is no reason to trust.  The second basis on which people trust is motive because if we are vulnerable to someone else, they have power, and what is motivating them is very important. Motives are the way that we show whose interest we take into account.   She explains that the third dimension of trust is what she refers to as means, and to be seen as operating fairly and having fair means.   Lastly, she covers impact, judged separately from the first three. This is the real, on-the-ground effect of their actions on us, the net effect of their actions, be they positive and beneficial or negative. Those four dimensions, competence, motives, means, and impact, are ways in which any board member can expect to be judged.

"Do a good root cause analysis and fix the steps that need to be fixed"
Sandra explains that there is much empirical research on recovering from lost trust and outlines the 'apology formula.' The first thing is to acknowledge the harm done and apologise for it. The second thing is to explain what happened, avoiding corporate-style apologies in the passive voice, "mistakes occurred," but in active language - "what we did wrong." Then they can build confidence in your ability to fix things. The third step is to offer a solution. What will you do about it? 

The three top takeaways from our conversation are:
1.      Boards have a central role in helping companies become trusted, and both earn trust over time and recover it if it's lost.
2.     Inside the board, it's essential to be m

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It sounds all so easy – you create a board and expect that this group will be able to add tremendous value. However, serving board members and observers as part of a board evaluation know that high-quality dialogue is not a given. 

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses improving boardroom dialogue with David Clutterbuck, who has been involved with boards and governance for over 30 years. David is Visiting Professor at three universities and the author/co-author of 75 books. 

"The board's role is not to do all this stuff!"
David starts by explaining that there are many "big issues" at present, but often some boards try to solve all these problems themselves. This is not the board's role. Rather, they should ensure that all these issues are identified and processes put in place to manage them, and then monitor the quality of these. 

"Boards which are not very effective are still thinking in linear ways"
David explains that in times of crisis, the line between executives and non-executives becomes blurred. For him, one of the key qualities of a board is to be able to rise above the complexity and help the executive steer through it. His research into post-COVID leadership showed a capability deficit in boards compared to current needs in an ever-changing world. The need is not for linear thinking in terms of cause and effect, but one of system thinking. 

"Organisations suffer from what we call organisational arthritis"
David outlines how systemic thinking involves identifying the many layers of an issue. This is increasingly important at the board level, where you have the internal systems and all the external ones, such as politics and economics. All these issues create a complex environment that is constantly evolving, and the board needs to be able to work within that complexity. 

"Organisational climate is a big part of that organisational agility that prevents organisational arthritis"
David describes an increasing emphasis on values and ethics and recommends that at least once a quarter, a board regularly considers whether the organisation is living up to its values. You can create an agile climate in an organisation in many ways, but having a strong sense of ethicality makes it more likely there will be strong psychological safety in the organisation. 

"We're using the most valuable time of the meeting for rubbish"
David relates that in studies of good boardroom practice in the 1990s, the typical board agenda started with up to 45 minutes of apologies for absence, minutes of the last meeting, matters arising and much which could have been done by email beforehand. He points out that the first part of the meeting is when brains are most productive before people start getting tired. 

"What are the criteria by which we're judging this decision?"
David believes that how decisions are made is important. Voting is commonplace, but this tends to mean people go along with the majority and suppress contrary views.   He explains that a much better way to decide is to determine the criteria by which the decision is judged. 

The three top takeaways from our conversation are:
1.      Don't get too involved in running the business. Recognise your role as a director, not an executive.
2.     Think about why the board is there, which will help structure

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In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses with Professor Randall Peterson the role of the board in helping organisations become better at dealing with diversity – moving beyond the presence of diversity to being able to engage diversity to benefit the organisation.  

Randall is a Professor of Organisational Behaviour at London Business School, and his recent work includes a report for the Financial Reporting Council on board diversity. He has been active on the board of UN Women UK. He is currently serving on the Leaders as Change Agents board, an expert panel working through the Government Equalities Office to facilitate positive change in the UK's largest employers. 

"We know something about what goes wrong - There's a parallel track…"
Randall describes the wide range of research he has looked at in depth with over 100 directors and company secretaries, which has given very consistent results. To gain multiple perspectives, usually, two or three people per board are required. 

"Adding diverse voices to the mix is not enough"
Randall explains that although diversity can benefit your business, there is no guarantee that it will unless you embrace it by doing the inclusion work engagement, which is hard to do. Well-managed diversity leads to tangible changes in the culture of how a board operates and interacts (making it more inclusive and collaborative), which has positive effects on the bottom line and corporate value. 

"Stop saying that diversity is going to get you a better outcome"
To be world-class, you have to be diverse because the research shows more diverse groups produce more varied outcomes. The very best groups are highly diverse, but so are the worst ones. Randall outlines some areas where his research was surprising. Firstly, the business case for diversity as traditionally formulated can actually have a strong negative impact. When you diversify and put a spotlight on people who are different, it can feel threatening and diminish performance. Secondly, Randall found that boards that are really good at one type of diversity are typically not great at another. Some boards were really good at gender, but not very good at race and ethnicity, and vice versa. There is now a better understanding that the barriers to entry for different groups are different. 

"Having a growth mindset, focusing on how we can get better outperforms any other culture"
Randall finds that interviewees are often somewhat reluctant to talk about demographic diversity because they don't want to 'get it wrong.' Most care deeply about diversity and should be braver in raising those issues in conversation, in nomination processes, etc. He wants to encourage people to have these conversations, being positive about what can be done, and what can be done better. The research shows very clearly that having a growth mindset, focusing on "how we can get better" outperforms any other culture, in terms of ways of working.

The three top takeaways from our conversation are:

1.      The importance of being willing and able to advocate for diversity, as there are often many more allies around the table than we typically anticipate.
2.     Every single director has a role to play in creating a culture of learning and growth and focusing on 'how do we get better', instead of 'what we do wrong'. Focus on what can be

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There is little doubt that boards are under unprecedented pressure. They face a multitude of widely differing demands and, in many cases, challenges. Increasing demands from different stakeholder groups, tougher legislation, a challenging economic environment and geopolitical challenges all exert pressures on boards. Coming to grips with several of these issues at the same time has become a high stake juggling act, and now more than ever, boards need to perform.

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses board performance under pressure with Sir John Tusa, who has served on the boards of some of the most iconic cultural institutions in the UK. Sir John was the presenter of BBC's Newsnight and the Managing Director of the BBC World Service. He was also the Managing Director of the Barbican Arts Centre and served on the boards of Cultural Institutions such as the British Museum.   

"Being on a board is not a party picnic"
Sir John explains that when under severe pressure, boards need to take stock and understand that being on a board is almost as difficult, (if not more difficult) as actually running an organisation. Many board members join boards thinking it will be interesting, enjoyable, and relatively straightforward. The reality is both complicated and demanding. He notes that it is also important to remember that board members do not run the organisation, they are not the management, and they don't have to make the decisions. However, relationships are key - between the Chair and the CEO, the board, and the management team. 

"You do learn by experience, and you do learn over time by observing bad decisions being taken"
Sir John explains that, to a degree, you learn by experience over time. Some of this learning is gained by observing bad decisions being taken (sometimes by yourself), which is not comfortable. There may be no perfect answers, but learning from past experience is key, so the experience of going through decisions (including bad ones) and learning from them is critical

"It's not about seeing how many times your name appears on the minutes of the meeting."
Sir John believes that the chair is responsible for the relations and atmosphere between board members. A good Chair will take a particular member aside after a meeting and have a quiet word when necessary because managing board behaviour is extremely important. Also, not everyone has to say something about every subject on the agenda. One contribution in just one meeting may be a decisive contribution. 

"Always face the reality of the situation"
Sir John advocates being realistic because however unpleasant and difficult, organisations which face up to problems and deal with them always come out of financial/economic crises faster, better, more efficiently, and more successfully. The reward of facing the facts is that they are much better placed to deal with the upswing later. 

The three top takeaways from our conversation are:
1.      Don't expect things to be terribly nice! This is tough, but in the end, it is the satisfaction of performing your responsibility. Every time you turn up, your chances of finding real satisfaction are much greater.
2.     You will be sitting with colleagues who have considerable skills. Use, acknowledge and respect those skills. This will create teamwork, and they will respect your skills as well, an

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Geopolitical dynamics have evolved recently and will continue to grow more complex, with even more impact in the foreseeable future.  Companies operating in more than one jurisdiction are particularly vulnerable to geopolitical risks, although these can also present opportunities.  Can boards afford to steer clear, or is the boardroom the best place to build resilience and pave the way to opportunity?

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards discuss geopolitical challenges with Nassib Abou-Kahlil, named one of the 20 top corporate legal officers by the Financial Times in June 2021.  Nassib held senior legal roles at Yahoo!, GE Oil & Gas, Etisalat and TMF Netherlands and most recently as Chief Legal Officer at Nokia. 

“Keep an open mind; the world is extremely diverse”
Nassib opens by observing that the complexity around Geopolitics is enormous but not insurmountable. In his mind, it is vital to keep an open mind. He relates his experiences with new challenges and working in numerous jurisdictions, involving not just managing complex laws, but also accommodating values and reconciling contradictions, whether cultural, legal or between values in the multi-jurisdictional environment.  This is a delicate exercise in understanding, foreseeing, mitigating and managing.  

“There is no one size fits all”
Nassib explains that he believes there is no ‘one size fits all’ approach, so whatever approach is taken needs to be well adapted to the specific business and relevant circumstances.  This must be taken into account when assessing the impact of a particular development and is achieved through utilising regulators and other geopolitical experts and analysts. Nassib describes how insights alone neither help solve nor achieve anything, so mitigation is necessary. 

“Yes, this is a board-level discussion… …not in every detail, but at a strategic level”
In Nassib’s view, it is essential for geopolitical issues to be a board-level conversation, and the board is potentially one of the bodies best placed for future-proofing organisations.  He explains that one of the most important tasks of the board in this context is weighing in on the strategy of a company, and assessing and deciding how a company addresses its geopolitical risks.  

“Lack of diversity and diverse perspectives, and challenges in perspective is potentially one of the greatest red flags”
Nassib holds the view that the biggest threat to boards and future-proofing is the potential lack of diversity on the board. In his experience, the power of diverse perspectives invariably leads to better decision-making and broader insights. 

“The biggest risk in diversity is defining diversity narrowly”
Nassim relates how he has always thought of diversity in the broadest sense of the word, including cultural experience, racial diversity, social mobility, and other aspects of diversity.  Many companies are operating in an extremely diverse environment, yet their boards do not reflect this.  

The three top takeaways from our conversation are:
1.      Geopolitical dynamics are here to stay, so keep in mind that today’s decisions may come back to haunt you tomorrow. If you exit a country today because of the geopolitical dynamics, this doesn't mean that you won’t want to re-enter it later, and people will remember your actions.
2.     Focus on divers

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Being digitally conversant in an era of digital transformation is quickly claiming Board attention.  Most companies are looking to use technology to improve business models, customer experience, operational efficiency, and more.  Boards must help them move forward at a sufficient pace, advocating for change, supporting, and sometimes nudging CEOs. 

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards discuss crucial issues to consider when creating a digitally savvy board with Peter Weill, Senior Research Scientist at the MIT Sloan School of Management and Chair Emeritus at MIT Center for Information Systems Research (CISR).

“What is this secret sauce of being digitally savvy?”
Peter explains that after studying the digital savviness of all the boards of U.S.-listed businesses, only 24% of those companies were digitally savvy. Yet those companies outperformed the rest, with 30% or higher revenue growth, return on assets, and market cap growth. 

After evaluating digital savviness, he and his colleagues at MIT CISR used machine learning to download and measure from the bios of all board members how digitally savvy they were.  Some large industry differences were noticed, such as 57% of boards in the information and media industry being digitally savvy, but only 24% in retail and 13% in financial services.

 “It takes three to digitally tango”
It can be difficult for boards to find digitally savvy talent, Peter accepts but believes it is not impossible. He explains that recruiting one or even 2 such board members makes no measurable impact on performance, but companies with 3 digitally savvy directors had significantly increased performance.  He suggests this type of talent for boards might be found in former or sitting Chief Information Officers. He also recommends looking for members in industries that have transformed digital very quickly, such as media, telecoms, information businesses, and technology businesses. Another place to look is venture capital companies with digital company founders. 

“It's the 50% of time on strategy that we see makes a big difference”
Peter believes that the most important thing a Chair can do is manage the agenda to spend the right amount of time on each role, with a good breakdown being 50% on strategy, 15% on oversight, and 35% on defense. 

“A digital strategy is a business strategy; it shouldn't be separated”
Peter advocates a common language, where boards and management teams use words in the same way, selecting a handful of frameworks and using those consistently.  He also reiterates the need to hire new digitally savvy board members, and while board “refreshment” presents an opportunity, it is small relative to education.  In his experience, board members are extremely curious, and fast learners, and providing education around digital for them is important. 

He does accept that there is a correlation between age and digital savviness, but this does not make younger candidates necessarily better directors, as they have less experience in other areas.  He advocates diversity on the board and helping sitting directors become more digitally savvy as well as recruiting talent.

The three top takeaways from our conversation are:
1.      Identify digitally savvy directors, or make a plan to get them.
2.     Actively manage agendas to allocate the right amount of time to strategy,

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There has been massive instability at a global level in the last two years, including geopolitical events, the pandemic, and inflation. However, we are also in the midst of a longer-term shift arising from political instability and deglobalisation. There is increasing investor focus on ESG, notably integrated reporting and disclosure requirements when it comes to climate change and stakeholder engagement. All these trends have major implications for board members, who need to be increasingly effective in overseeing risk and strategy. 

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses board future-proofing with Professor Didier Cossin, a Professor at IMD Switzerland and the Founding Director of the IMD Global Board Centre. A renowned global expert in governance, Professor Cossin works with boards and senior leaders worldwide to provide the latest thinking on best-in-class board effectiveness, dynamics, and design.

"You have to create a certain level of resilience while building up agility"
The most important shifts affecting boards currently involve the world's current polarisation. Issues such as climate and ESG have become very polarising in many ways. Boards need to create a certain level of resilience while building up their agility in preparedness for the big shifts that are happening. 

"Responsibilities board members didn't have in the past and pressures from all sides of society from the regulators"
As boards become more engaged than before, they need more granular understanding while keeping a high-level view and not micromanaging. Fiduciary and social responsibility have increased overall, while meetings have become more frequent, especially with digital capability. This requires board members to be increasingly present.  

Boards should consider the big trends against all the organisation's activities and develop a view around which activities are exposed. They should increase the resilience of the organisation by integrating risk into strategic thinking. Boards are doing more work on human capital management, questioning whether organisations have the right culture and are sufficiently agile. 

Board members now have responsibilities and pressures (from all sides of society and regulators) that they did not have in the past. This raises a new issue coming under scrutiny - the effectiveness and quality of the dynamics within the board. 

"The world has become too difficult to navigate for boards to be compromised in any way"
Many boards are asking themselves how to future-proof the board. Didier believes there are four main areas of board failures. Firstly, classical risks, where organisations are not resilient or prepared and thus not able to pull quickly out of risk situations.  Secondly, Didier describes the risk of board failure due to strategic blindspots, including the organisational context and the role the board takes in strategy work. Didier describes a third board risk in the quality of the relationship between executives and non-executives. He outlines the issues of how to foster deep trust while playing clear, distinctive roles, and believes that the board works almost as a team in supporting the executives while knowing when to challenge. The final area of board failure is integrity failure. The ability of the board to develop the capability of its members to have the courage to speak up, which is key. 

"The best boards know how to prioritise"

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Recent research revealed that 87% of board members believe market disruptions are becoming increasingly frequent, and 83% say they are increasingly impactful. At the same time, 79% believe risk management will be critical in enabling their organisations to protect and create value in the next five years. 

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses the risk environment with Zahra Cassim, CEO of Corporate Secretaries International Association (CSIA) and David Samy, Consulting Partner at EY Hong Kong.

"There's often not enough time on the agenda to deal with what might happen in the future"
Zahra explains that there has previously been a general lack of board focus on risk oversight. Risk has tended to be driven and managed in functional silos, resulting in a lack of a structured approach to collecting and analysing risk information. This has been compounded by the underutilisation of technology and the right tools to analyse those risks. Finally, there can often be poor communication of risk from business units through senior management to theboard level.

"What the boards need to do is to prepare for a GREATER range of disruption and risk"
David believes that risk fatigue may occur in a lot of organisations. The risks are very clear, but where the board is inexperienced and there is a lack of guidance or stewardship, the board can lose focus, and be unable to give long-term risks the attention they deserve. 

"Risk management programmes have not caught up and have remained a very high to be static"
David cites a 2020 survey of boards' confidence in their organisations' ability to counter cybersecurity threats was at around 20%, but by 2021 this had dropped to 9%. He explains that this is an alarming decline and has a lot to do with how risk and risk management programmes are being run at present.   Digital modernisation has accelerated within most organisations in the recent past, but risk management programs have not really caught up. 

"Risks are managed in silence, and so very often not communicated to the board"
Zahra explains that one of the critical tasks of the Corporate Secretary is to consolidate information, ensuring that the board is fully aware of all risks when making decisions. But they also need to ensure they integrate risks into their strategy. 

"There's always a solution for every situation"
David offers some practical tips. First, start with driving awareness at the board level, by identifying a risk steward, a role the governance professional or Corporate Secretary can play. His second tip is unlocking the value of ongoing digital transformation by tapping into Governance Risk and Compliance (GRC) technology to create a single view of risk across all functions, leverage available data sources, and simplify the process, while enabling a common risk ecosystem and shared focus across the organisation.

The three top takeaways from our conversation are:
1.      As trusted strategic advisors to the board, governance professionals are uniquely positioned to help the board align strategy to the regulatory landscape, technological advances, and ESG-related concerns. 
2.     Corporate Secretaries are increasingly approached to facilitate enterprise risk management. Their understanding of business concerns and organisational culture and their ability to be the bridge between the board and management is valuabl

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Organisations are facing major challenges. Many boardrooms have not yet caught up with the avalanche of recent and current profound changes, and both boards and members of nomination committees need to think carefully about talent and the C-Suit. It is easy to talk at a high level about moving from a shareholder economy to a stakeholder economy but what does this really mean for the selection and development of the C-Suite?

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses the implications of major changes on the selection and development of top talent with Professor Joe Fuller. Joe is a Professor at Harvard Business School and co-founder of the Monitor Group, now known as Monitor Deloitte.

"We've moved away from just looking for executives with deep industry experience"
Joe outlines how his recent research highlights that it is no longer safe to assume that leaders with traditional managerial pedigrees will succeed in the C-Suite. While executives with deep industry experience and high-order process management skills are always good candidates, new criteria around social skills have been added to the desired mix. 

"Boards of directors tend to hire and evaluate in the way they learned over the course of their careers"
Joe believes this issue represents a real challenge for boards. Historical criteria looked at the track record, career progress, responsibilities, and business units or companies. However, those measures were flawed. Traditional ways of evaluating people are subject to error - and now evaluating the new skills required is both different and difficult. 

"To assist management in hiring a new senior executive… broaden the aperture on what they evaluate"
Joe explains that, in his opinion, the first thing a board or committee member hiring a new senior executive needs to do is broaden the aperture of evaluation and widen the kind of experiences they want to see represented in a track record.  

"The stakes have never been higher, and the punishment never greater for getting it wrong"
Joe points out that senior executives must refine their management and/or communication styles for today's social media. Essentially, anything said at any point during their working day may end up on a platform with global reach and almost no barriers to being observed. The stakes have never been higher. 

"We have to set aside some of our rather, frankly, lazy approaches to evaluating people"
Joe believes that boards need to make clear to executive search firms that they seek people with experience managing different constituencies and handling volatile problems successfully, not proof of someone's performance in more traditional measures. 

"This is a new era that requires new solutions, and old dogs with old tricks is not going to be a sufficient response"
Joe also speaks about internal candidates and highlights how succession planning can be tweaked to grow candidates with the skills required. Career planning and career paths for high potential young executives are essential. 

The three top takeaways from our conversation are:
1.      The whole field of human assets is undergoing a radical transformation and the old rules will not suffice.
2.     The paradigms used for advancing executives and candidates for advancement and the types of experiences and competenci

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Diversity is high on the agenda, yet we still see something different in the boardroom, where more often than not, boards are filled with individuals whose nationality only matches that of the country of the headquarters. FTSE boards are filled with British nationals, DAX boards are filled with German nationals etc. It is clearly challenging to establish a global mindset in the boardroom.

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses the issue of establishing a global mindset at the board level with Thomas Kipp. Thomas served on the board of Deutsche Post DHL and Aramex and worked and lived in Europe, North America and Asia. He is the newly appointed CEO of Naquel Express.

"Be respectful and authentic"
Thomas believes his upbringing contributed to his ability to adapt quickly to different cultures. He explains that being curious and open-minded to other cultures enables you to really understand how things are done. His best advice is to be respectful and authentic. 

"It's important to try and understand how you can leverage a global footprint"
Thomas gives examples of this when working in Japan, where establishing trust takes time. In the United States, he learned to present ideas as if they were coming from the local teams, making it their idea and their success. In Spain, he found that Spanish people were not so comfortable speaking in English, so allowing interludes for speaking in their own language (letting the emotions and the Southern European passion out), then reverting to English, bringing everyone together again, created more focus. Appreciating the local business environment enables small 'tricks' to have a big impact. 

"You will find various angles of difficulty in creating… …the same level playing field as if you were dealing with business matters in your home market"
Thomas feels that the first difficulty in bringing a global mindset to the boardroom is posed by simply practical reality. In any given country, it is likely that not too many board members will have lengthy, practical, work experience in another country. He states that only around 4% of the world's population has ever left their home country to work for a lengthy period of time. 

"We say we're operating in international markets, but it doesn't really show in the way we're running the company"
Thomas points out that running a business with an international element is a clear strategic decision. Practically, that decision needs to be carefully thought through in terms of what it will mean for the organisation, for designing or redesigning the leadership team, and what it will mean to integrate the international business into the company setup actively. He suggests that the leadership team and board must represent the international reality. 

The three top takeaways from our conversation are:

1.      It is a serious strategic and business undertaking to expand business internationally. There should be a clear conscious effort to reflect this in the leadership and organisational setup, from the boardroom down to the shop floor
2.     On a personal note, board members need to overcome insecurities, immerse themselves in the international business environment, and make a conscious investment in understanding how to better leverage their international capacity and capabilities for the success of the company
3. 

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