You've seen the Hollywood movies - but what is hostage negotiation really like?
John Sutherland spent decades as one of the Met Police's most accomplished crisis negotiators. In this episode, he gives Andy and Neil the inside track: how it feels to have a life in your hands, what you actually say in those moments, and how he coped when things didn't go to plan.
From talking down hostage-takers armed with suicide vests and flamethrowers, to helping ordinary people through the worst day of their lives, John reveals the reality behind the role most of us only know from the big screen.
Later, he also explains how the job almost broke him, and how he rebuilt his life as a Sunday Times best-selling author and novelist.
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