The Crime Cafe

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Matt Witten.

Check out our discussion of the writing life and writing for television. Not to mention his latest book, Killer Story.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi: But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included affiliate links on this blog.

Download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest for this episode has written for a variety of media. Along with writing for television on shows like House, Law & Order, Pretty Little Liars, CSI: Miami and Homicide to name a few, he's a playwright. He started out as a poet in Grade One, and he's a novelist as well as a person who has produced a film. I believe it's like 83 minutes long called—what was it—Drone?

Matt: Right.

Debbi: Great. Along with his series of Jacob Burns Mysteries, he's published two novels that are thrillers. The first of those is The Necklace, which has been published in English as well as seven other languages, and has been optioned for adaptation to film by Leonardo DiCaprio's Appian Way Production Company. His latest book is Killer Story. I've started it, and I have to tell you, once you start the book, it is really hard to put down. It is literally almost unputdownable. I would've been here holding it in my hands if it wasn't by my reading chair right now waiting for me and I'm anxiously waiting to get back to it. Anyway, it is my pleasure to have today a talented multi-hyphenate Matt Witten. Hi, Matt. How are you doing?

Matt: Very good, thank you, Debbi. Thanks for having me.

Debbi: Sure thing. It's my pleasure. I just want to start out by saying you have the most impressive website that I've seen lately. It is so awesome just reading it. Go there. I would suggest everybody go there to mattwittenwriter.com. Do I have that right?

Matt: You do. Yeah.

Debbi: Excellent. There's so much there about you, about your books that I just thought was really interesting reading. When I looked at your About page, I was wondering what to ask you about first, because I noticed that you became very determined about becoming a writer after a health crisis. Can you talk about what spurred that determination in you?

Matt: Sure. I was 18 years old and I got an undiagnosed illness, and I promised myself that if I ever got well again, that I would remember that writing was at the core of my being and I would stick to writing. And after about two and a half months, I did get well again, and I've stuck to that determination or decision to stick to writing. You know, throughout my life, despite the ups and downs of the writer's life, which has certainly had its downs, I have stuck to writing throughout. I would say there was one exception when I weakened when I was in my late 30s or about 40 years old, when I said I'm not having any luck and I applied to law school, and I got in and I got a good scholarship. It cost $20,000, but I got a scholarship for $17,500 per year, and I was thinking about going, and then the week after I got into law school, my first book was accepted for publication. And a week after that, I got the call from Law & Order to come out to Los Angeles to write for Law & Order.

I was 18 years old and I got an undiagnosed illness, and I promised myself that if I ever got well again, that I would remember that writing was at the core of my being and I would stick to writing.

Debbi: Oh my gosh!

Matt: So I just decided to stick with the writing. So other than that brief flirtation with law school, I've remembered the decision that I made when I was 18, that this really is who I am and I should stick with it, no matter what.

Debbi: I can just hear the screams of 10,000 lawyers who don't like their jobs going aaahhh! Yeah. I stuck with law school, practiced law even, and ended up becoming a writer anyway.

Matt: That's wonderful. I do sort of have a theory that sometimes the decisions we think are really important aren't that important. It's conceivable that I would actually, to be honest, have been equally happy perhaps if I had gone to law school and become a lawyer and done some kind of law that interested me. So even though I say this, and I did stick with what was at the core of my being, who knows? I mean, who knows really? Life is a mystery. I know when we moved from … at the time that I'm speaking of, that crossroads of my life, we were living in Saratoga Springs, New York, a small town in New York, and I could have kept writing the novels, which is where … my novels were set there. I could have kept doing that, but I felt like oh, this is a chance to go to L.A. and write for TV, the big leagues, and I mean, we've had a good life, lives, my family and I, but honestly, I think looking back on it, I probably would've been equally happy if Law & Order had never come up, TV had never come up, and I'd just been in Saratoga writing novels. Even that would've been a good path. Anyway, that's my theory as I get older, that the things we think are truly important in our lives may be are not so key as we think.

Debbi: I think there's something to that. Really, I do. There's a lot to be said for simply being content with what you have. Not that you can't excel and do better at it, but just understanding what it is, who you are, what you like, and what you want to do, regardless of what the world tells you you're supposed to do, you know?

Matt: Yes. Yes. And whatever you need to work out in your personality, your character, you're going to work out one way or another, no matter what you do. It's an exaggeration, of course. I mean, if you're facing tremendous poverty, that's a whole other kind of a thing, but to some extent, life just goes how it goes.

Debbi: Precisely. Yeah. Let's see. You also have written plays. Was that how you started with playwriting?

Matt: I did start as a playwright. I had a crush on my 10th grade drama teacher, and so I wrote a play in 10th grade. It got done at the local Methodist church at the women's group, I got paid $10, and I got hooked. And yeah, for sure, I wrote plays until I was about in my mid-30s. That's my first thing.

Debbi: And some of those plays have been published so they can be read.

Matt: Yep, yep. They've been published by Samuel French and Dramatists Play Service. I haven't written a play for a long time, I think for about 20, 25 years, but they still get produced sometimes. One of them got produced a few months ago at a prep school in Massachusetts, which I enjoyed a great deal, and another one got produced in Japan last year. So it's fun to see these plays living on, for sure.

I haven't written a play for a long time, I think for about 20, 25 years, but they still get produced sometimes.

Debbi: That's fantastic. It's wonderful. Your first fiction were the Jacob Burns Mysteries, correct?

Matt: Right.

Debbi: Are you still working on those novels? Are you continuing the series?

Matt: The short answer is no. I wrote four of them back in the late 1990s and early 2000s, and then that's about when I got the call to come work for television. So I wrote one or two of them my first one or two years of TV, but then I got too busy writing TV and I couldn't write those anymore. So I will say that now 20 years later, I have gotten the itch to write another one. I thought it would be funny. The Jacob Burns novels are about a guy who's like me at that time, an aspiring writer living in Saratoga without that much money, which was me at the time. And I thought it would be fun to take that same character 25 years down the line after he's been writing for television for 20 years as I have and is getting back into novel writing like I am, and just to take that same character and pick him up 25 years later.

The Jacob Burns novels are about a guy who's like me at that time, an aspiring writer living in Saratoga without that much money, which was me at the time.

I just thought that would be kind of a hilarious thing to do. So I actually do have two plots in mind, and I'm planning to ask my agent how he would feel about my writing books that are cozy-ish again after writing these thrillers. I don't want to confuse my readers too much. I mean, I've got these thrillers and that's kind of my brand right now so I'm a little hesitant, but anyway, I am feeling a little bit of an itch so I may talk to my agent about that.

Debbi: Yeah. Well, you have to kind of follow your gut a little bit on these things, I think.

Matt: Yes.

Debbi: Write what suits you at that time and hope that your readers enjoy your style enough to kind of follow along, I think....

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Naomi Hirahara.

Check out our discussion about her latest work: a series of historical novels, as well as her inspiration for writing them.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi: But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included affiliate links on this blog.

Download a copy of the transcript here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Our guest today is the Edgar Award-winning author of multiple mystery series and noir short stories. Her first historical mystery Clark and Division won a Mary Higgins Clark Award and follows a Japanese-American family's move to Chicago in 1944 after being released from a wartime detention center. She's also written numerous nonfiction books and a middle grade novel. It's my pleasure to have as my guest Naomi Hirahara. Hi, Naomi. How are you doing today?

Naomi: I'm doing well. Thanks for having me, Debbi.

Debbi: It's my pleasure, believe me. You seem to have several series going. How many series do you have and which one did you start with?

Naomi: Well, my first one was my Mas Arai Mystery series and its aging Los Angeles gardener and Hiroshima survivor who solves crimes. It's an homage to my own father. It's not my father, but inspired by someone like him, and that went for seven books. Actually two of my series, they've only made it as far as being duologies. One is the Ellie Rush bicycle cop mysteries, and there's a Leilani Santiago shave ice mysteries. I guess we're calling that the Leilani Santiago Hawaii Mysteries set on the island of Kaua’i. More recently, I've changed to historical mysteries and because publishers like series but it's loosely linked, it's called the Japantown Mysteries. And as you mentioned, Clark and Division is the first. The second just came out - Evergreen - and it'll be followed by a third one, but not from that main character's point of view, but another character.

More recently, I've changed to historical mysteries and because publishers like series but it's loosely linked, it's called the Japantown Mysteries.

Debbi: Interesting. So it's like the same world, but a different character.

Naomi: Exactly. And it's actually even a different time period, so the third one will be set in 1903.

Debbi: Huh. So you go back in time?

Naomi: Exactly. I wanted that latitude to jump around. And in terms of Clark and Division and Evergreen, I look at it as bookends to my lead character, Aki Ito, her kind of resettlement story, and I didn't want to turn her into an amateur sleuth where she's investigating random incidents. The two storylines in both books are deeply personal, so I kind of wanted her story to end with Evergreen.

I wanted that latitude to jump around. And in terms of Clark and Division and Evergreen, I look at it as bookends to my lead character, Aki Ito, her kind of resettlement story.

Debbi: Yeah, yeah. Interesting. It's fascinating because I can't think offhand of another series where people go backward in time.

Naomi: Yeah. I mean, Tana French. She has her Dublin Murder Mysteries which go …, but that's all in the same investigative unit, and it's different characters all in that same unit. But yeah, it should be interesting. I'm all for stretching the rules, so I think it'll work out.

Debbi: I love that. I love stretching the rules. That's great. Let's see. I was going to talk about Leilani Santiago, because I read the first book in that dual set, and I see you have a follow up to that. What was it that inspired you to write about Hawaii during the pandemic in that first one?

Naomi: Yeah. Well, the first one was before the pandemic and the second one, An Eternal Lei, took place in the pandemic, and it was just a question of timing. That was published by a small press called Prospect Park Books, and it's since been acquired by a Nashville-based publisher. But my publisher and editor Colleen Dunn Bates, she loves Kaua'i and she loves Hawaii. I was writing it I believe around 2020, around that time, 2021. No, yeah, 2020, and I was asking Colleen because people have different opinions on whether you should, especially something that's more cozy-ish, should you set it in the pandemic or not? Because a lot of people, that's the last thing they would want to read.

But in talking it over with Colleen, we just knew the pandemic was like a seismic shift in terms of tourism and life in Hawaii, and I really kind of needed to go there and I'm glad I did because tourism fell by 80% and it was kind of a different type of Hawaii. So it almost became like a locked-room mystery, because not that many people are coming from the outside. Who committed it? Who is this woman? You know, this mysterious woman that was found in the ocean in Waimea Bay. Where did she come from? And it was actually kind of nice to have a lot of limitations to where this mysterious person/victim came from. So I was very happy to do it. Of course, I couldn't go to Hawaii at that point, but with the internet where I could watch Hawaii News right on YouTube and just the mayor of Kaua'i was putting out TikTok videos, and then there was a lot of people getting arrested for arriving on the island when they shouldn't have been. So even though I couldn't actually travel there, there were a lot of ways to see what was going on.

I couldn't go to Hawaii at that point, but  ... even though I couldn't actually travel there, there were a lot of ways to see what was going on.

Debbi: Fascinating. And what a setting! I mean, like you said, almost like a locked-room mystery. I never think about that aspect of Hawaii, how isolated it must be or can be under certain circumstances.

Naomi: Yeah. And because so much of the industry is around tourism, many of the small businesses took a very big financial hit, but then there's also people, and we kind of see that through the investigation of the Maui fires, the impact of tourism on the islands too. So there's people who really, they call it the ʻĀina, they want to preserve the land so there's this natural tension of people trying to promote tourism and people trying to keep it among native Hawaiians. So with mysteries, we need conflict so it's kind of built in.

So there's people who really, they call it the ʻĀina, they want to preserve the land so there's this natural tension of people trying to promote tourism and people trying to keep it among native Hawaiians.

Debbi: Absolutely. Before you started writing fiction, you were a journalist, and then you became an editor. Correct?

Naomi: That is correct.

Debbi: Do you feel that these experiences helped you as a writer?

Naomi: Oh, most definitely. I mean, these days, unfortunately, so many news outlets have closed. I'm 61 right now, but when I was establishing myself as a writer in my twenties, so that's in the 1980s, it was still a viable way to make a living. Also, I was an avid reader of Writer's Digest magazine, and Larry Block had a column in the back, one page, and one of his columns was what are the best occupations as you're emerging or developing as a writer? And he was saying, one is to have a job where you talk to various people and check, being a reporter. I was at an ethnic newspaper, a Japanese-American newspaper that was right next to Skid Row and City Hall, so I talked to a wide variety of people.

I think the second kind of job, he said, is to get a job where you actually are writing, and it doesn't have to be fiction, but to help hone your craft, and check, that's what you're doing as a reporter. You can't wait for the muse to hit you, because often people ask what's your writing space or what do you do? And as a reporter, those were the days that we really didn't or couldn't use the internet. I mean, we couldn't depend on that. So I was filing stories over the phone so it was really fast paced. I think that was helpful because - except for when the pandemic came - I really didn't have any problems with writer's block.

I think the second kind of job, he said, is to get a job where you actually are writing, and it doesn't have to be fiction, but to help hone your craft, and check, that's what you're doing as a reporter.

I think the third kind of job Larry Block recommended was a job where you make the most amount of money for the least amount of effort, and of course, journalism is not that kind of job, but I did other things later so I heeded his advice in all three areas.

Debbi: Yes. Excellent advice, too. Let's see, what are you working on now? The third book in the series?

Naomi: Yes, I am working on the third book, and of course since it's in 1903,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Verónica Gutiérrez.

Verónica has had an inspiring career. Learn more about that, as well as how she’s used her experiences to inform her first novel, As You Look.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included affiliate links on this blog.

Download a PDF copy of the interview here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Today our guest is a former community organizer, civil rights attorney and corporate executive. Originally from the Boyle Heights neighborhood of Los Angeles where her protagonist Yolanda Avila lives, she and her wife are home bar enthusiasts and avid travelers. I can get into that, boy! They host cocktail-lesson-themed fundraisers. Now, that's something I can imagine are popular. She is the author of the book As You Look, which I believe is her debut novel, a Yolanda Avila mystery. It's my pleasure to introduce Veronica Gutierrez. Hi, Veronica. How are you doing today?

Veronica: Hi there. I'm well. Thank you for having me.

Debbi: Excellent. Good to have you on. Thank you. You have had the most interesting career or series of careers. Which one of those things did you start with?

Veronica: Well, probably the work in politics. I worked in local government for quite a while before I practiced law, and then I went off and moved into public affairs, doing work similar to what I did in public service.

Debbi: Interesting. How were you involved in politics?

Veronica: I worked on various campaigns for local government in Los Angeles. I helped the first Latina councilwoman in Los Angeles get elected and worked on her staff for a bit. I also worked on a campaign to get her elected as the first county supervisor, where she served for more than 20 years, and was just fantastic. Then I also worked for another council member who became president of the school board and who was actually the president of the school board twice. Worked with her in the city for a little bit. And then most recently, a friend of mine asked if I could help Mayor Karen Bass set up her office when she was first elected, and I did that for about five months or so at the beginning of her administration, which was a lot of fun.

I worked on various campaigns for local government in Los Angeles. I helped the first Latina councilwoman in Los Angeles get elected and worked on her staff for a bit.

Debbi: Wow. Bet it was a lot of work too, huh?

Veronica: Oh absolutely. Yes. it's definitely a young person's sport, let me put it that way..

Debbi: Yes. And you were a civil rights attorney. Who did you work for?

Veronica: I worked for a small firm that focused on civil rights. It was called Litt & Marquez at the time. Litt & Associates it became later. They focused on employment discrimination, on slumlord litigation, police abuse, civil rights, those types of things and that was a lot of fun. I really, really enjoyed working with my clients in that world.

Debbi: Interesting. Yes, and I really admire you for doing that work. Did you handle specific types of those cases, or did you kind of cover the waterfront?

Veronica: It was pretty much all of them. Multi-plaintiff cases involving slumlords, which received really good settlements for our clients who were living under very difficult conditions, and a couple of police abuse cases, one of which involved another big multi-plaintiff lawsuit where the LAPD got kind of out of hand during a union protest that they had permits for. That actually resulted in some pretty good changes within the LAPD, I think. I also represented a police officer who was subject to some pretty bad discrimination in a local police department, who suffered some pretty bad anti-Semitic harassment, and that was a very rewarding case to win as well.

Debbi: I can imagine, yes. And you were also a corporate executive. How did you get into that, and who did you work for in that capacity?

Veronica: I ended up being recruited by the local utility company from the city of Los Angeles when I was working for Jackie Goldberg, who was the council member at that time, and I learned that I could do a lot of similar work, but with more resources. So I joined their public affairs department and stayed on for quite a while. Did some regulatory work as well, and had an opportunity to work in Washington D.C. and in San Francisco and Sacramento for that company, and was fortunate to be able to retire early from that and get on with my writing career.

I ended up being recruited by the local utility company from the city of Los Angeles when I was working for Jackie Goldberg, who's the council member at that time, and I learned that I could do a lot of similar work, but with more resources.

Debbi: That's fantastic. All of that is wonderful stuff. That is really great. Tell us about As You Look. What inspired you to write the story?

Veronica: Well, I had been thinking about the story since early in my days working for the city of Los Angeles. I was just coming across so many characters, so many life stories, and it just kind of came to me and I modified it over the years, but I kept thinking about the story before I actually put pen to paper. It's basically a novel that centers on a woman's balance or attempt to balance grief and guilt and nascent psychic tendencies, who happened to grow up where I grew up in Boyle Heights in Los Angeles, and, dealt with a lot of the ins and outs of some of the political and union issues and neighborhood issues as well.

I was just coming across so many characters, so many life stories, and it just kind of came to me and I modified it over the years, but I kept thinking about the story before I actually put pen to paper.

Debbi: That kind of stuff always interests me. I have started your book actually, and I have to say - and this is totally not a spoiler - wow, does guilt play a role in it!

Veronica: Yeah.

Debbi: What inspired you to create this particular private eye ex-cop who happens to be Latina and feels such a crushing guilt over what I won't say? I’ll leave that as a teaser.

Veronica: Well, part of it I think really is an outgrowth of the mystery novels that I love to read, the strong, female characters in them. Sara Paretsky and Cara Black were among the first that I really loved. The V.I. Warshawski novels and the Leduc novels, I really enjoyed those and I thought I especially liked the focus on the location. The fact that Chicago in Sara Paretsky's novels is another character. Paris is another character in the Cara Black novels. Your own novels, the Sam McRae novels featuring Baltimore and the D.C. Area. I love novels that focus on place, and I wanted to do that because you don't really see the neighborhood where I grew up being featured in the general media, at least not in a positive way, and it's a wonderful neighborhood. So I wanted to make sure I captured it somehow, and that's part of what got me going on it.

The V.I. Warshawski novels and the Leduc novels, I really enjoyed those and I thought I especially liked the focus on the location.

And then as for the character, the main character, she happens to be lesbian, and it's just a matter of fact. It's not a central part to the story necessarily. It just happens to be who she is, and she and her friends reflect a lot of my friends and my community, so I was looking forward to writing that as well, because I haven't read anyone like her in other novels.

Debbi: It's nice to be able to write the kind of story you want to see out there, the kind of book you want to read. And when other people want to read it, it's like, ooh, you get it.

Veronica: Absolutely.

Debbi: Isn't it awesome?

Veronica: It really is.

Debbi: It is. What authors have most inspired you? You named a couple. Sara Paretsky, I know. Talk about an inspiring writer. Totally. Is there anyone else you would name as particular favorites?

Veronica: Sure. Cheryl Head writes a Charlie Mack series focused in Detroit. Tracy Clark also has a great series - the Cassandra Raines series in Chicago. Naomi Hirahara who has focused in the past on Pasadena branched out and recently had one focused in Chicago and now again in LA. They are historical novels, the latest ones, the Aki Ito novels. So all of them are great inspiration, I think, for writing. And then the authors that I meet at the author conferences too. You make friends there and you see them struggling with their own writing and it has actually inspired me as well to get back beyond the research so I could start writing again for my second novel.

...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features another entry in the Adventures of Philip Marlowe entitled “The Restless Day.” I've had a few of those.

Feel free to check out the video version, too.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Where ad-free episodes are a bi-weekly event!

Here's a copy of the transcript in PDF.

Debbi (00:12): Due to circumstances beyond our control, we do not have a guest for today, unfortunately, however, we do have an episode from the files of Philip Marlowe pi. It's called “The Restless Day.” Enjoy!

Marlowe (01:11): They all knew he was aboard the yacht when it exploded and sank, and everybody called his death and accident. That is everybody except the cops himself. He said it was murder.

Narrator (01:22): From the pen of Raymond Chandler, outstanding author of crime fiction, comes his most famous character as CBS presents the Adventures of Philip Marlowe. And now with Gerald Mohr starred as Philip Marlowe, we bring you tonight's exciting story, "The Restless Day."

Marlowe (01:57): It had been a long, hard Saturday night that topped off a long, rugged week. When I finally got to bed dog tired at 5:00 AM Sunday morning, I was planning to stay there until I caught up on all the sleep I'd lost and gained a running head start on the coming week. And by three in the afternoon on the day of rest, I figured that job was only about half done, but whoever it was that started riding my doorbell had a different idea. I held out until the buzzer stopped, but it was only a change of tactics, so I gave up. All right! All right! I know when I'm licked! Just a minute.

Benjamin Rollins (02:33): Thank heaven you're in Mr. Marlowe. I don't know what I'd have done otherwise. *cough* *cough* *cough* Sorry.

Marlowe (02:38): It's all right.

Benjamin Rollins (02:39): Here. Read this story on the front page. No, down here.

Marlowe (02:42): Oh, yacht explosion. Death labeled accident, huh?

Benjamin Rollins (02:44): Yes. Yes.

Marlowe (02:45): Oh, mystery blast, which destroyed the Rollins yacht at Santa Monica Friday night, and in which Benjamin Rollins noted cosmetics manufacturer was killed, was established today by police investigators as accidental.

Benjamin Rollins (02:57): *cough* *cough* *cough* *cough* Sorry, I smoke too much.

Marlowe (02:58): That's all right. The explosion which shattered and sank the 50-foot pleasure boat was caused by a leaking fuel line. Oland's known to be a chainsmoker, as believed by witnesses who have ... continued on. page seven.

Benjamin Rollins (03:08): Never mind Marlowe. I'll tell the rest.

Marlowe (03:11): Yeah, I think you'll make it.

Benjamin Rollins (03:12): There are two frightening things wrong with that story.

Marlowe (03:15): Well, go ahead. Frighten me

Benjamin Rollins (03:17): First. The explosion was no accident. That fuel line was repaired a week ago. Second, Ben Rollins was not killed.

Marlowe (03:23): You're shaking my faith in the American press. How do you know all this?

Benjamin Rollins (03:27): Because I am Benjamin Rollins.

Marlowe (03:28): Yes. Well, look, fella. You better dial one one six on the phone and tell the police all about it, huh?

Benjamin Rollins (03:33): No, that's exactly what I can't do. Someone's tried to murder me. If they find out I'm still alive, I'll be a target for a second attempt. *cough* *cough*

Marlowe (03:40): Wait a minute, wait a minute. I need two things right now. One, a cup of coffee. Would you like some?

Benjamin Rollins (03:44): Oh, milk, If you please. My doctor insists.

Marlowe (03:46): Okay, come on. You know, there's a good, solid explanation of why everybody thinks you were aboard that yacht.

Benjamin Rollins (03:52): Well, first they believe my body was lost in the explosion. You see, I intended to spend the night there because Lucille, my wife and I quarrel, but I got a call and I had to go out of town on business at the last minute. I went out to the boat, but only to pick up some papers. I was in a hurry. I must have let the lights on. I lost my hat in the wind on the way back ... *cough* cough* ... it was found. It was found in the water. Apparently I didn't secure the dinghy because that was a drift off shore. Mind you, I read all this in the paper when I got back this morning,

Marlowe (04:23): Back from where?

Benjamin Rollins (04:24): Phoenix, Arizona.

Marlowe (04:25): Figures.

Benjamin Rollins (04:27): I came in on the California Limited. You can check on that. Marlowe. I must know who tried to kill me before they know they failed.

Marlowe (04:35): That could be tough. Have you got any ideas?

Benjamin Rollins (04:36): Yes, I have. It might be any one of three people.

Marlowe (04:39): Three?!

Benjamin Rollins (04:40): For instance, Walter Pittman, my ex-partner threatened to kill me less than a month ago in New York when I won another court decision from him, and there's my business manager, fellow named Slater. I almost fired him last week. The arrogant fool. *cough* *cough* *cough* It's always when I get crossed this country.

Marlowe (04:55): I see.

Benjamin Rollins (04:56): And I'm sorry to say it, but Mrs. Rollins herself would no doubt, rather have me dead than alive. That's quite a lineup for a mere cosmetics chemist, isn't it?

Marlowe (05:07): Yes, it is. Look, you haven't been running lipstick experiments with somebody else's live equipment, have you, Rollins?

Benjamin Rollins (05:12): Oh, certainly not. I've been working so hard. I haven't time for my wife, *COUGH* to say nothing of another woman. Oh, Marlowe, I'm frightened. I must get to the bottom of this. I'll pay you double your usual fee. Will you help me?

Marlowe (05:24): Okay, Rollins, it's a deal. If I hurry, I might get down on your funeral. Under the circumstances, that should make somebody due for a very big surprise,

(05:41): A shave and a shower later, and I checked my wheezing client's credentials, settle him down in my apartment with orders to answer the phone, but not the door, and drove out to Santa Monica where the not very late Ben Rollins had made his home. I had a list of names, addresses, and phone numbers of people close to Rollins, that is close enough to kill, and I decided that Arthur Slater, the business manager, was my best bet for an opener. He had been described as softspoken, efficient, and somewhat arrogant, and after I found his cottage on Seaview Drive and walked up to the door, I heard someone inside offering a similar description, but with more color.

Angie (06:14): I've had enough of that routine, Arthur Slater. If you think for two minutes, you could throw little Angie over anytime you feel like it, after all the promises you've made, you're wrong.

Arthur Slater (06:21): That's just about enough, Angie,

Angie (06:22): Not by half brother. I know which way the wind is blowing and it's a nice big wind. Nobody kicks me out. I mean nobody. So think it over. Mr. Big. Oh, get out of my way.

Marlowe (06:34): Yes, ma'am. Cute kid, friend of yours, Slater?

Arthur Slater (06:37): Who are you? Another insurance investigator.

Marlowe (06:39): That's right. My name's Marlowe. May I come in?

Arthur Slater (06:41): Yes, certainly. All the others did.

Marlowe (06:43): Thanks. Who knows? I may be the last. Slater, I've got three reasons for believing that yacht explosion was no accident.

Arthur Slater (06:50): Not an accident. What reasons are you're talking about?

Marlowe (06:52): For one, Walter Pittman.

Arthur Slater (06:54): Pittman. You mean Rollins ex-partner? You

Marlowe (06:57): You know him, eh?

Arthur Slater (06:57): Well, only by name. I never met the man.

Marlowe (06:59): All right then. Let's talk about reason number two. Lucille Rollins. How do you feel about it, Slater?

Arthur Slater (07:04): You must be out of your mind. Marlowe. She and Ben fought constantly. Yes.

Marlowe (07:07): Slater. I asked how you felt about Mrs. Rollins.

Arthur Slater (07:10): I don't like her, but now what or who is reason number three?

Marlowe (07:15): You are. You had an argument with Rollins last week. He practically fired you.

Arthur Slater (07:19): And do you think I'd kill him over that?

Marlowe (07:21): Could be,

Arthur Slater (07:23): But Marlowe, Ben Rollins drove himself like an overloaded truck. He had a cigarette cough, nervous shakes and bad dreams. To me, bureau drawer eyelashes and glue-on fingernails simply aren't that important. So we had frequent arguments. Now, do you have any more smart reasons you'd like to discuss or would you care to leave?

Marlowe (07:40): Just one thing more. Why does your girlfriend think you're a little stuck up these days?

Arthur Slater (07:45): You're becoming a bit too personal, Marlowe. Get out. I'm not compelled to answer any of your questions. There's an established legal procedure.

Marlowe (07:51): Skip it, Slater. If I need to, I'll be back. And I'm fairly chummy with the boys in blue myself, so I'll get the answers if I want 'em. Goodnight, Big Shot.

(08:08): Arthur Slater was like a billiard ball, hard to rub the wrong way, and if he did have an angle, he was playing cagey. So as long as I was in the neighborhood and the trail was hot, I figured I'd have a talk with his spitfire, Angie. It wasn't hard to trail her. The corner news boy had heard get into a cab, the cabbie swore he'd never forget her, swore again. So finding her apartment was less trouble than unfolding a $5 bill. When I pulled up across the street from a place I noticed a big car as big as the average garage and older than last year's college graduate parked in front. It was a black pierce arrow and someone with a mouthful of cigar hulked behind the wheel. A cigar was pointed at me as I crossed the street. When I went up the stairs to Angie's door, it was still pointed at me. But I forgot about that when the apartment door opened, Angie was relaxed. There were little glints of gold in her green eyes,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Nicholas Chiarkas.

Check out our discussion of his Weepers series!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Our scheduled guest for today was unfortunately unable to be here. However, fortunately we have another author filling in for him. He was the director of Wisconsin State Public Defender Agency for 22 years, and has also received several awards for excellence. He founded The Justice Without Borders organization, a transnational group that provides legal aid to victims of labor exploitation and human trafficking. Interesting! He has also written two novels - Weepers and Nunzio's Way. It's my pleasure to have with me as my guest, Nicholas Chiarkas. Hi, Nick. How are you doing today?

Nick: I am fine. Thank you so much for having me, Debbi. I appreciate it.

Debbi: Well, it's my pleasure. Very much so. It's great to meet you. Tell us about your books. They're part of a series. Is that correct?

Nick: They are. They're part of what we call the Weepers series. The first novel was Weepers. The second one, which came out this past October - wow, almost a year ago - is Nunzio's Way. Can I hold them up and show you what they look like?

Debbi: Absolutely. For anybody who is watching on YouTube.

Nick: I just happen to have a couple.

Debbi: Oh, yeah. They just happen to be sitting there.

Nick: This is Weepers and this is Nunzio's Way.

Debbi: Very good. Very good. Hold Weepers up a little bit more. Good. Get a nice, good view. There we go. Weepers. Okay. Look at all those people in the background. Very evocative. Let's see, so they have different protagonists though, correct?

Nick: There are some of the same ones, but they do have different characters. Weepers focuses more on Angelo, who is a 13-year-old kid growing up in the Al Smith projects on Manhattan's Lower East Side, where I actually grew up. In many ways, Weepers, if you were talking to my wife instead of me, she would say it's a memoir or a Roman à clef, you know, a story that is based on fact that has a façade of fiction over it. And it's kind of fun to guess who the characters are and what the real events really were. So it's based on a lot of real events and my experience growing up in a housing project like you did, Debbi, in New York City.

Weepers focuses more on Angelo, who is a 13-year-old kid growing up in the Al Smith projects on Manhattan's Lower East Side, where I actually grew up.

Debbi: Yes, yes.

Nick: And it is an experience.

Debbi: It is at that, and I've toyed with the notion of writing a memoir, actually, if I decide to risk remembering all those horrible things that happened.

Nick: Well, two things. One is, that actually happens. I did remember stuff that I thought I forgot and probably would prefer to forget. On the other hand - and I'm not just saying this because you are kind enough to have me here - you are a brilliant writer, and you had those same kinds of experiences and more, and I think you should. I think it not only would help a lot of people. I've gotten calls and letters and comments from kids I grew up with, boys and girls saying, boy, I forgot about that. You reminded me of X, Y, and Z. It's very interesting. And several of them thought it was therapeutic for them to think about Weepers and what we went through and stuff like that. You need to do that.

I've gotten calls and letters and comments from kids I grew up with, boys and girls saying, boy, I forgot about that.

Debbi: Wow.

Nick: It would be a wonderful memoir.

Debbi: Oh my gosh. What a pat on the back! Thank you. I appreciate it. Are you working on the third book in the series?

Nick: I am. So with Weepers - and I know you'll understand this immediately - with Weepers, I wanted to kind of raise the curtain for folks that didn't grow up that way. I'm now living in Wisconsin. It's a little cold here today. I'm living in Wisconsin, and a lot of people have no idea what it's like. Not just growing up in New York, which is very different, but growing up in a low income housing project, and I wanted to tell the story, but not as a ... I've written seven non-fiction books about crime and organized crime and things like that. I wanted to tell this story and tell the truth about it, but in a way that was both interesting and informative. I wanted to talk to Angelo about what he...

I wanted to tell this story and tell the truth about it, but in a way that was both interesting and informative.

I'll tell you the funniest thing. When I first wrote Weepers, the first couple of drafts, Angelo's name was Nicky, my name. He couldn't do anything wrong. He was the perfect kid. I had to get rid of Nicky and I had to create Angelo, or it just wouldn't work.

Debbi: Amen.

Nick: Yeah, what he saw, what he did. He's not the perfect good kid, but I think you sympathize with him throughout the novel and kind of root for him, even though he has an uncle that is a La Cosa Nostra boss. He has friends and family that love him and embrace him even in the projects, even poor. And I also wanted to...And then I'll be quiet. You have to stop me from talking.

I also wanted to let folks know that being poor is more than not having enough money. Being poor is how you feel about yourself and your self-worth and your self-value. At one point, Angelo makes the comment that - and it was the way I felt as a kid. If I'm having a fight with a wealthy kid from Uptown, and we both fall off the roof and die, I win because he has more to lose. And growing up poor, that's kind of ingrained, and I wanted people to know here's how it feels. Not just here's what it is; here's how it feels. So that was the idea of Weepers.

I also wanted to let folks know that being poor is more than not having enough money. Being poor is how you feel about yourself and your self-worth and your self-value.

When that was done, I thought about the La Cosa Nostra boss is Nunzio, Angelo's uncle. I wanted people to know more about Nunzio. And so while it has the same characters, it's three years later, 1960, and it's more about Nunzio. Angelo's still in it, but what Nunzio was like in his life and so forth. I'll stop for a second.

Debbi: Okay. That's okay. That's probably a good idea. Let's see. Do you have a specific number of books you'd like to write for the series in mind and a place where you'd like to aim it as an endpoint?

Nick: Wow. Scary question. I have five, I think. I don't want to say what the endpoint is, but I do have an endpoint in mind. I have more focus on Angelo as he gets older and older. I have a couple of endpoints. One is that Angelo takes over for Nunzio. The other is he goes in the exact opposite direction. I'm not sure yet, and I'm not sure where Book Three, which I'm working on now, is going to take me, but it'll get closer to that.

Debbi: That's interesting. I keep thinking of things like The Godfather and The Sopranos. The Godfather, where Michael gets sucked into this life he initially said he didn't want.

Nick: Right.

Debbi: And then The Sopranos, of course, where you have this absolutely cold-blooded killer who at the same time is so human that people relate to him. Fascinating.

Nick: It is.

Debbi: But this is yet another look at New York, which I think is intriguing and an important look at New York.

Nick: I agree, and it was an important time. Weepers takes place in 1957. In 1957, New York led the world in gang violence. The cover of Life Magazine had juvenile gangs on it. West Side Story came out as a play in 1957. The country was focused on the street gangs, and that was New York - Hell's Kitchen, Astoria, the Lower East Side.

Debbi: Queens.

Nick: East Harlem, the Bronx, Fordham Baldies, the Red Wings, all of them. In Weepers - and I'll give this away - in Weepers, the gang that Angelo belonged to was called the Grim Reapers, which was my gang on the Lower East Side. And what happened to me and happened to Angelo is, the first fight I got into, I started crying, and the other gangs started making fun of me as I was fighting. I was 12 years old, and they started calling us the Weepers instead of the Reapers. I told my uncle, I just can't go to school anymore, and he took a pen and drew on my shoulder “Weepers,” and he said, change the name of your gang. Make it the Weepers. Own it. Take pride in it,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Addison McKnight, the pen name for co-authors Nicole Moleti and Krista Wells.

Check out our discussion of how they got started and their process as collaborators.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Today my guests are two writers who collaborate on writing novels, two authors. They each have freelance careers and have written for a variety of publications, but they write fiction together as a team under the pen name Addison McKnight. Their names, their actual names are Krista Wells and Nicole Moleti, not Noelle, Nicole. In any case, I'm very pleased to have with me Krista and Nicole who write as Addison McKnight. Hi guys. How are you doing today?

Nicole: Good. Thank you for having us.

Debbi: I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to have you here too, and I'm happy to focus on the two of you as we speak. I got it to work. Let's see. Your debut novel is called An Imperfect Plan. What's it about? There you go. Cover and all Excellent. Nice cover too.

Nicole: Yes. Well, it's about a lot of different things and a lot of different themes, and the main thing is centered around perfection and women’s—and not just women’s—the cultural obsession with perfection in all different aspects of life, and particularly it's about a woman who saves her eggs. She's working in New York. She's saving to have a family later, and she ends up getting divorced and when she goes back to get the eggs, she realizes that they're gone, and the only thing she could figure out is that her ex-husband sold the eggs.

Well, it's about a lot of different things and a lot of different themes, and the main thing is centered around perfection and women’s—and not just women’s—the cultural obsession with perfection in all different aspects of life ...

Debbi: Hmm, wow.

Nicole: So that, yes. Scary.

Debbi: Interesting and legal question there. Wow. That's fascinating. So how would you describe it in terms of genre? Is it like domestic suspense, thriller?

Krista: I would say it's a hybrid between women's fiction and a thriller.

Debbi: Cool. Cool. And are you working on another book?

Krista: We are. We just finished our second book, which is called The Vineyard Remains, and it's also a thriller/soapy drama, kind of another hybrid that will be coming out next year.

Debbi: Excellent. Do you plan to continue collaborating on writing fiction?

Nicole: Yes, definitely. We have a lot of jobs and kids between us. You could see right now I'm in between baseball games. We do try to cram in writing and all of our jobs and kids and everything and make it happen. So we always say we're so lucky to have each other because we really only have to write half of a book, which is nice.

Debbi: Yes.

Nicole: We end up doing it all together, obviously, but I write a chapter, you write a chapter. Okay, I'll write this part. You write that part. It's nice when you have a lot of other things happening, you know. It makes it a little bit easier and we have so much fun doing it.

Debbi: That's great. What drew you toward the suspense thriller genre in particular?

Krista: I would say that the reason is because Nicole read a lot of thrillers. So when she actually came up with the idea of An Imperfect Plan and came over, I had gone through infertility, so I helped her with one of our themes, which was infertility, secondary infertility, and I think part of the reason that the book became a thriller was because she was such a big fan of thrillers and had been reading so many. Would you say that's true, Nicole? I feel like I'm speaking for you and why we picked that genre.

Nicole: Yes, definitely. I was obsessed and it's not just books. I think too, we always were watching these dark, deep and twisty shows on Netflix, and it was becoming that whole Girl on a Train/Gone Girl time where all these women were becoming obsessed with true crime and shows on Netflix and these books. So I was really loving it, and I was saying, oh my God, you have to watch this show. We were trading shows, trading books, and I think I just love as a reader those books where you get completely blindsided. That's like my favorite thing and shows too, and so when I had this idea for An Imperfect Plan, I really, really loved mostly the twist. I love a good twist. So when I thought of it, I'm like, I have to write this book. I have to write it. It's going to be so good, and it is.

I was obsessed and it's not just books. I think too, we always were watching these dark, deep and twisty shows on Netflix, and it was becoming that whole Girl on a Train/Gone Girl time where all these women were becoming obsessed with true crime and shows on Netflix and these books.

Debbi: That's so cool. I'm with you there. I love a show or a book that keeps you in such suspense that you have to find out what happens next because you know there's going to be a big twist or something in there somewhere, and you don't know exactly what, but it's coming. It's always great. It's almost like riding a rollercoaster or something.

Nicole: Yes. You're reading and you're trying to solve that psychological puzzle that you feel like you sort of know some of the pieces. A lot of people, when they read  An Imperfect Plan, the feedback that we got was we kind of knew something, but we didn't know when or how, so we felt excited that people weren't able to guess the ending.

Debbi: Exactly. Yeah. That's really sometimes the best you can get, you know, where people kind of get it but they don't completely get it, so that there's still that element of surprise. What advice would you give to any writer who wishes to do what you're doing? Collaborating?

Nicole: Just do it. Oh, collaborating. I don't think you can force that. I think that we have seen it become a little bit of a trend. When we started it, we had two sets of authors that we were looking at and saying oh, we can do that, and it was kind of a new idea in the thriller/suspense genre that these two women were doing that. And since we started, we've seen it become more of a thing where people are collaborating. They already have their career, and they're like, oh, I'm going to write a book with this person or that person. It's really, really hard, and although I said there's a lot of benefits to it, it is very difficult. I mean, you're not on your own timeline. If I say, well, we have this due by Friday, but I'm working these two days, and Krista says she's working and I'm at a double header and you're at a swim meet, and it's trying to figure out when we can carve out time to work together. And also, artistically, creating something is very different and difficult when you have a vision. You have to then have a shared vision, and a lot of times I think we run into that. We have to sway each other and convince each other we have to do it this way, and sometimes we always say I don't like that, but if you can convince me. You have to build your case, and then we have to

[A]rtistically, creating something is very different and difficult when you have a vision. You have to then have a shared vision, and a lot of times I think we run into that. We have to sway each other and convince each other we have to do it this way, and sometimes we always say I don't like that, but if you can convince me.

Krista: Yes, or sometimes we'll bargain. If you give me this person in the court, then I'll give you that she could be pregnant or something like that, and we'll negotiate in the comments.

Nicole: Yes. Yes.

Krista: We'll do sort of a trade.

Debbi: Well, I can see you guys have a rapport, that's for sure, and it probably plays out a lot in your writing. It reminds me a great deal of screenwriting because often screenwriters will collaborate, especially in a TV setting. Always you have that writer's room and that sharing and the bouncing of ideas off each other. It's similar, but different, very different.

Nicole: Yes. Have you done that before? Have you …?

Debbi: I've had an experience where I did collaborate with several writers on a short film recently.

Nicole: Yeah. Oh, awesome.

Debbi: It was like a contest type thing, so it was like, wow! To me, I felt more alive after I did it. It was like, whoo. I really connected with these people and got in a few lines and jokes. Wow, this is great.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer and entrepreneur Clay Stafford.

Check out what's on offer for crime writers of all stripes at Killer Nashville.

Not to mention Clay's other pursuits, including film production, directing, acting, etc.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi: Our first guest for this season has achieved so much,I could spend hours picking his brain for advice, but we'll have to settle for about 20 to 25 minutes, more or less. We can hit the highlights anyway, and one of those is the big conference that he organizes—Killer Nashville. Killer Nashville has been going on for … this is the 16th iteration of Killer Nashville, as I understand it. It's just amazing that he has organized this conference starting with a very much smaller group. We can get into that later. He is also a screenwriter, poet, playwright, film and TV producer, director, showrunner, actor, educator, reviewer and public speaker. I think I've covered all of it. Gee, what a slacker, right?

Clay: And Dad. And Dad. I'm a dad. A husband and a dad.

Debbi: That's awesome. See, all of those things. That's great. So it is my great pleasure to introduce as my guest today, the amazing Clay Stafford.

Clay: Oh, thank you.

Debbi: Hi, Clay.

Clay: Hi, Debbie. How are you? I think we're in our 18th year, if I'm not mistaken.

Debbi: 18th?

Clay: I don't know, let's do the math. 2006 was the first year, and then we were forced to take one year off because of Covid. So I think we're going into our 18th, but I'm not quite sure. It's either 17th or18th, maybe. I don't know. But it seems only yesterday in 2006 when I asked a couple of friends to come down, and it turned out to be about 70 friends came down for the first Killer Nashville and it seems like yesterday, but I've watched two children grow while the conference goes year to year so I know time is moving, but it doesn't seem like that to me, but I guess that's the way it is. You know, you don't start feeling older until you watch your kids start growing, and as they get bigger and bigger, you keep thinking, well, something must be happening with me because if they're aging so am I.

Debbi: That's right. Yeah. Unfortunately.

Clay: But thank you for having me back on the show. We got to talk last year, and I was delighted to come back and talk with you again.

Debbi: Well, same here, because you do so many things and you've done so many things, it's just amazing to me. I was looking over our previous interview and I was struck by a couple of things. First, I'd forgotten that you started a production company at the age of 16 and made commercials at that time, correct?

Clay: I did. I did. And the first commercial was for a bank, so yeah, I've been doing this for a long time. I started as a kid actor when I was 10, so that's even adding onto it. So I've been in this business a long time working in film, television, and publishing and music.

Debbi: And music. Yeah. Excellent. Also, I was struck by how the Killer Nashville grew out of a smaller local conference, correct?

Clay: Well, I started a conference before Killer Nashville, and it was one that is still to some degree going on here in Tennessee where I live. But it's a very, very local conference, and I really wanted to expand into something that was international, which is what we are. I just saw today we had somebody sign up from Kenya, so we've got a lot of people who come in from other countries. And that was really my focus for switching and starting Killer Nashville was to be able to increase the bandwidth to reach writers. I love writers from all over the world. I don't have a specific genre really that I personally read. I'm very eclectic; read across everything. I also am a big fan of literary works and movies from other countries, and so the idea of doing something international was really appealing to me because I wanted to ... I just love the connection that you make with these writers and filmmakers throughout the world. We have a common love of what we're trying to do with story, and it's just great to be able to reach out and get to know people from other cultures.

Well, I started a conference before Killer Nashville, and it was one that is still to some degree going on here in Tennessee where I live. But it's a very, very local conference, and I really wanted to expand into something that was international, which is what we are.

Debbi: It is. It's fantastic. So what is new and exciting that's on tap at Nashville this year?

Clay: At Killer Nashville?

Debbi: Yes, Killer Nashville.

Clay: We've expanded our course offerings. We were doing around 66 courses. We are doing 155 this year, and the conference is able to hold that, so we've got a lot more opportunities for people to be on panels. We've got a lot more opportunities for people who are coming to learn, to find different types of things that we're working on. I've really focused ... I know a lot of people are interested in marketing, whether they're traditionally published or self-published or some sort of independent hybrid whatever, and so we've really, really battened down the hatches on the marketing as well. So we're covering a lot of genres. Our Trinity was pretty much any work that encompasses mystery, thriller or suspense, and we've altered that because I kind of had an epiphany that action and romance—and not necessarily romantic love—but romance with life, romance with language, fit in as well so now we've got the five. Mystery, thriller, suspense, action and romance are pretty much the focus of what we're doing here at Killer Nashville.

It's still the same conference it was, but we're offering more things like how to interject romance into your book, how to interject action, more action into your book, how do you keep the pages turning? And so we focused a lot more on that because I think that's really what people wanted. I spent a lot of time this last year sending out emails to previous attendees and people I knew who were coming this year saying what do you want to see? And so they started telling me what they wanted to see, and I thought, we don't have enough bandwidth in our 66 things to cover that. So I started doing the numbers of how many attend, and I was just like, okay, we've got enough that we can expand out and still have a good showing in each one of the rooms.

It's still the same conference it was, but we're offering more things like how to interject romance into your book, how to interject action, more action into your book, how do you keep the pages turning?

So we're up to I think it's 156, and then we've got a lot more panel presentations —not panel presentations—presentations by individuals, experts in their field of AI and forensics and legal and medicine, so all of those are going to be for people who are really coming for some serious knowledge about … what goes really goes on in the mind of a serial killer? We've got expert presenters who are coming to do that. We've got panels and presentations at the same time going, so it's really, really expanded. It's the same as it was, but as I sent out in a newsletter, Killer Nashville newsletter, I really think that this year is going to be the best one I've ever produced.

Debbi: Well, it sounds really amazing. It sounds like you've really branched out into some other things.

Clay: Well, I think I've really just kind of, as I said, had kind of an epiphany and with the guidance of the people who've previously attended, because they're the backbone of what we do, or the people come and share themselves with everybody else. I just kind of had an epiphany on the little dark areas and the shadow areas that we weren't shining light on, and so decided that this year that we've got to figure out a way to do that. And I did. I've got it worked out. We've got the schedule online now, and you'll see a wide array of choices. So no matter where you are in your journey, whether you've just got an idea or you're already a published writer who's doing well but wants to do better, we've got something going on every single hour of every single day for you. We're running 10 and 12 tracks per day, I mean per hour, so there's going to be plenty of content for whatever stage that you're at. And what's so cool is having ... As you know, we have really experienced people who are coming and then people who are start

This is ad-free bonus episode to finish up Season Eight. Just a quick update on my plans (or possible plans) for the podcast.

Here's a PDF copy of the episode.

Hi everyone. Well, it's taken me a while to put up this particular episode, which I hadn't quite expected a lot of things to happen, unfortunately. For one thing, my computer crashed. That did not help at all in terms of getting things done on this podcast or on anything else. But in any case, I am in mostly recovered mode at this point and probably have lost quite a few photos as a result of this and maybe not. We'll see. In any case, I just wanted to say that I've really enjoyed doing this show and I really would like to continue doing it.However, what I'd like to think about also is what else I can be doing that would be an interesting new direction. So I wish I came here with a master plan all worked out and ready to tell you about, but I don't have one.

Yeah, that's the truth. I am simply considering options at this point, and among the options I've considered are putting together anthologies by authors who have appeared on the Crime Cafe, things like that, other than the one that I already offer, the ones I already offer. So that's something to consider. And the other thing I'm thinking about is something in between that, like say periodically posting short stories from, or essays or guest posts from the authors, doing random interviews. I don't know, it just depends on how things develop and what I feel I'm capable of doing at this point.

So yeah, my capabilities are somewhat limited in that I have dystonia and it's a movement disorder as, I don't know if I've ever talked about it on the podcast, but I have it. And lately the treatment has not been working very well, so that makes life a little more difficult in general. But having said that, I just want to say that I really appreciate how much support the show seems to be getting in terms—I look at the statistics in terms of downloads, and they've been going up—and I get so many requests to be on the show, and I feel really honored by that. I truly do. And I also want to thank everybody who listens, everybody who watches the YouTube channel, the patrons on Patreon. Thank you.

Yeah, that I was not expecting. Not expecting at all. Be seeing you.

PS: I endeavor to provide more than just another podcast with your support.

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer T.W. Lawless.

Check out our discussion of his Peter Clancy series … and more!

Transcript now available in PDF.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My final guest for this season, although actually I'm planning to do a kind of an additional episode after this. It'll be a bonus for people who are patrons on Patreon if you'd like to see it. I'm going to talk about my plans for the podcast because this is the end of my eighth season so it's just amazing to me that it's gone on this far. And if I make it to 10 seasons, well something has to be done to celebrate that.

Having said that, I would like to introduce our guest today. After studying journalism, he worked as a registered nurse for many years before turning to fiction writing. He is the author of the Peter Clancy novels, as well as a thriller called Furey's War, which he co-wrote with his wife Kay Bell. My guest today, it's my pleasure to introduce Thomas Bell, who writes under the name T. W. Lawless. Hi Tom. How are you doing today?

Tom: I'm good.

Debbi: Excellent.

Tom: I've had coffee. I'm fine.

Debbi: Oh, yes. You're always fine once you have that coffee. Amen to that. So how are things in Australia?

Tom: Well, fine at the moment. I think the weather is okay today. Well, we live near the sea, which is always okay. We love the sea. It's the weekend. What's today? I'm getting confused with time differences. It's Saturday today.

Debbi: Oh my gosh. Well, it's Friday where I am and it's Saturday where you are.

Tom: I always feel like in Australia, we live in the future.

Debbi: That's right. Yeah. Everything's going to be fine because everything's fine in Australia.

Tom: You just have to get to Saturday.

Debbi: Just take it one day at a time.

Tom: I know.

Debbi: One time zone at a time. Let's see. I wanted to ask you about Furey's War first, because for me it was a really interesting read because you were writing about World War II, but you were writing about it from an Australian perspective, and that's something that I've just never read.

Tom: That's true. That's true.

Debbi: Yeah. So what inspired you to write that book?

Tom: Well, I guess my father, because he …well, North Queensland. The family came from North Queensland from a small country town, which was a bit like the one in the book. The Gold Rush had gone and basically the town was a ghost town, becoming a ghost town until the Americans came in 1942 or whatever wanting an Air Force base. So that's what happened. An Air Force Base arrived and an Australian Air Force base arrived and there was this big influx of military people, plus a big cultural impact. So this country town became vibrant with all these American troops, like thousands. And of course, people loved it. Some people didn't like it. It changed the town, but all over Australia that happened. They wanted to be in Northern Australia because it was the access to Papua New Guinea and the Pacific Islands.

Some of those stories in there are true. Sometimes the Australian troops didn't like the American troops because they were better paid, and Australian girls liking the American troops and Australians didn't like that. And of course, boys being boys, they had some fights and whatnot. So I just put that layer of the police officer trying to navigate his way through that and keep law and order, and sometimes trying to work with the Americans because he had been in the military with the Americans and trying to keep his town stable through all this. So I thought it was a different spin on things because I don't think peace time - not peace time - but the home front. You don't often hear about the home front in Australia. I think maybe it was the first, I don't know, but it was a great read.

Debbi: Well, it's the first time I have read it

Tom: Yeah. It was great to write and to work with my wife, so we got through that okay, unscathed. There were creative differences, but we got through it and it came out to be a great book.

Debbi: How did you handle your creative differences?

Tom: Just usually to argue and then my wife always wins and I let her win, nah, we just work it out eventually. You know, we just have discussions and so you will just look at the end process and it all seems to work in the end. I've never co-authored a book with anyone. I don't think that, I don't know if that happens very often, but it was something different to do.

Debbi: I think it's happening more frequently than it was in the past, especially with self-publishing.

Tom: Yeah. I've seen authors like James Patterson. Didn't he do a book with Bill Clinton and I think he's done one with Dolly Parton I think, but that's James Patterson anyway, but maybe it is becoming more common I think because two heads are better than one as they say.

Debbi: I've had really good luck collaborating on screenplays with people.

Tom: Oh, that's right. You do screenplays, don't you?

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. It's really a wonderful process, I think. Do you find that it helps you as a writer to collaborate with somebody else?

Tom: Oh, I couldn't do it in isolation. Even if we're not having written a book together because Kay's a writer also, we can talk over ideas, flesh out things, and try this sort of stuff. I think it really works. I think maybe being a writer by yourself is a little bit isolating. You need to work off other people I think sometimes. Try out your ideas on people and see if they work or not work.

Debbi: I think that's absolutely true. Let's see. You've also published several Peter Clancy novels. Tell us about Peter Clancy and what went into creating that character.

Tom: Peter Clancy. Well, once again I thought an Australian character because you see these thriller books being dominated by British characters, American characters and now Scandinavian characters I see in other people. But I thought maybe something different. You know, I'm Australian. I sort of understand the place a little bit and I wanted to get away from the detectives, private eyes. Try maybe a journalist, an investigative journalist and try to pay homage to how a journalist would acquire a story. So I just thought about it and started in 2012 to write the first book, and I've been sort of going since, trying out different scenarios. Now I'm up to Book 6.

It sort of started out in a ... the idea came from when I was young, there used to be a publication called The Melbourne Truth, which is now defunct. My mother used to get it because it had the race guide in it, but it was renowned as being a bit racy. You had a Page 3 Girl and those scandal stories, and I thought wonder what it's like working for a paper like that, so that's part of the idea of where Peter Clancy was born and that was in the first two books. But they made up stories sometimes and they'd do anything to get a story, and so that's where Peter Clancy was born and based for a little while.

Debbi: Cool. Let's see. Now your latest release, Beachdaze deals with some pretty serious issues, very relevant issues. Can you talk about those?

Tom: Well, once again, dealing with the environment, and I've always had a thing about the environment, how people treat it and talking about also having bad neighbors. I think we were living down just outside Melbourne at a peninsula and there were stories going around of illegal dumping because people didn't want to pay for going to the dump to dump rubbish. You have to pay in Australia and then you have to sort out the rubbish into different classifications, and so some people were just dumping it. And then apparently I'd heard people will dump rubbish like building site rubbish because some building property developers aren't the nicest people in the world and they don't want to have to pay all that money to dump the rubbish, so they'll just pay someone and they'll just dump it anywhere - farmland or by the side of the highway. So there's this big industry and this made me angry about why they were doing this. I also read stories about the underworld being involved in illegal dumping because it's a way of laundering money. So Peter Clancy, you could put him in there and he comes, has a heart attack and I thought, you know, he just wants some peace and quiet, and of course he never does peace and quiet. So that's what happened. I just took it from there and all the corruption and other elements to make it exciting.

Debbi: Excellent.

Tom: I think there is a problem across the world. I've even heard stories about the Mafia being involved in dumping, illegal dumping of rubbish. Of course it's toxic waste and then you hear stories that they dump asbestos. I have heard stories in Australia they're dumping asbestos anywhere they want to.

Debbi: My goodness. Serious situation. Yeah.

Tom: Yeah, there definitely is.

Debbi: What are your plans for the series? Do you envision a certain number of books that you're going to write or do you just plan to keep writing them until you get tired of it?

Tom: I'm in a sort of state of flux at the moment. I've sort of gotten halfway through Walk, the current book, but I'd like to go on a holiday first because we haven't had our holiday to Greece yet. That got of course canceled during Covid, so maybe after that I'll write another book. I don't know if it's writer's block, but I think it's sort of like wanting to go on a holiday overseas sort of situation at the moment.

Debbi: I wouldn't mind taking one myself.

Tom: I know. I think everyone wants to go on a holiday and the airlines took hold of that because some of the airfares have been very exorbitant. I think they're coming down now, but I know Covid affected a lot of lives. I think we canceled three times.

Debbi: Mm. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, because we've been really careful about not going places and it's just like,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with the first female Bond novelist, Kim Sherwood.

You'll want to hear all about the latest developments in James Bond's world. Even if he is missing!

And, for anyone who wants to write, this interview is loaded with great insights from my guest.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of an award-winning debut novel Testament. She was shortlisted for the Sunday Times Young Writers of the Year Award. She is also the first female author of a Bond novel. It's called Double or Nothing. Here's the cover if you can see. I'm always doing that wrong. It's called Double or Nothing, and if you like action packed stories, I think you'll love this one. I'm thrilled to have with me today the first female Bond novelist, Kim Sherwood. Hey Kim, how are you doing today?

Kim: Hi, I'm good, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Debbi: Well, it's a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much and congratulations on making history.

Kim: Well, that's very kind. Thank you.

Debbi: Well, I have to say—the first question that comes to mind is how does it feel to be in this position, to have a job this amazing?

Kim: It feels pretty good. It feels pretty good. It's very surreal. You know, sometimes it becomes almost normal because it's kind of my day-to-day life now. And then on days like today we are recording on the 17th anniversary of Casino Royale so I'm down here in London for the celebrations. I'm at the Ian Fleming offices, which is why I'm surrounded by all of these beautiful Ian Fleming books, and to see my book next to his and with this legacy, it's very, very special.

It feels pretty good. It's very surreal. You know, sometimes it becomes almost normal because it's kind of my day-to-day life now. And then on days like today we are recording on the 17th anniversary of Casino Royale so I'm down here in London for the celebrations.

Debbi: I can just imagine. Wow. And the other question I have is, how the heck did you manage to land a deal to write Bond novels from a feminist perspective, no less?

Kim: That's right. Well, really this comes down to saying very far-fetched things out loud repeatedly. So all of my life I've said to anybody who would listen, one day I want to write a James Bond novel, and I happened to say it to the right person, my agent who heard that the estate was looking for a new writer. They had liked my first book. They knew what a fan I was. They invited me to send them some ideas, and it all took off from there, and they were really excited about the kind of new directions that I wanted to take the world in, a chance to kind of expand the world of James Bond.

So all of my life I've said to anybody who would listen, one day I want to write a James Bond novel, and I happened to say it to the right person, my agent who heard that the estate was looking for a new writer.

Debbi: Yes, yes, it does. Definitely. This book definitely goes there. How much did you prepare to write these books in terms of research and any other preparation that you made?

Kim: Well, in a way I've been preparing all of my life because I am, you know, an obsessive fan. So it was about going back to rereading the books, rewatching the films, and just thinking about the threads that Ian Fleming had set running that I could maybe pick up on again, while also bringing it into the modern day. And that's where a lot of the research came in, because I was trying to honor Fleming's vision while also make it feel fresh and contemporary in the 21st century. So I did a lot of research into climate science. The book features a climate catastrophe that the Double Os are trying to prevent. I did a lot of research into quantum computing, so really things at the very cutting edge of technology. I got to speak to scientists and doctors, which was just fascinating and I was so grateful to everybody who gave me their time.

Well, in a way I've been preparing all of my life because I am, you know, an obsessive fan. So it was about going back to rereading the books, rewatching the films, and just thinking about the threads that Ian Fleming had set running that I could maybe pick up on again, while also bringing it into the modern day.

Debbi: I'm always impressed when people do this level of research, do so much research that they could practically write books about the subject itself.

Kim: Yeah. Well, for me, research is such an integral part of the writing process. It has been for all of my novels. The author Hilary Mantel, who's a historical novelist, she said that a writer can hardly know what they need to know until they reach the scene, and she was talking there about historical research. But I think for me anyway, it's true for everything I've written. You get to a scene and you think, well, hang on, I've made Q a quantum computer now, so I better go learn something about quantum computing. And for me, getting to talk to experts and pick their mind, that's just such a joy.

Debbi: It is, isn't it? What sparked the idea for your first book in this trilogy?

Kim: It was an interesting challenge because the Flemings wanted me to kind of expand the world of 007, bring in these new Double O characters, and then in a way, James Bond becomes a problem because he's such an icon. If he's standing there on the page or the stage, the spotlight is on him, and that's where all eyes are going to turn. So how do you introduce a new character under those circumstances? You know, it's kind of unfair to the new character, so I thought I have to kind of get rid of him in a way. I have to ask him just to step a little bit out of the spotlight and into the darkness. That was my idea to have him missing from the beginning, and to have a kind of new ensemble cast of Double O characters who are trying to find him. They don't know if he's been captured, possibly even killed, so they're looking for him desperately while also trying to work out whether this tech billionaire who says he can solve the climate crisis through technology is quite so saintly as he seems.

It was an interesting challenge because the Flemings wanted me to kind of expand the world of 007, bring in these new Double O characters, and then in a way, James Bond becomes a problem because he's such an icon. If he's standing there on the page or the stage, the spotlight is on him, and that's where all eyes are going to turn. So how do you introduce a new character under those circumstances?

Debbi: Yeah. I thought it was interesting the way the various characters, the different Double O’s would talk about James Bond and talk about their experiences with him, and there would be like a typical James Bond moment that they would insert in there. So it's as if the specter of James Bond was in the book.

Kim: Absolutely. He's both absent and present really, because he's there in flashbacks, he's there in memories, and as you say, he is there in conversations. That was a way for me to almost transfer or hopefully transfer the reader's empathy and love for Bond onto these new characters who love Bond just as much and have significant relationships with him.

We have Moneypenny, who is now the head of the Double O section in what I felt was a very long overdue promotion, and she and Bond have kind of come up together through MI6, and she has a very kind of intimate friendship with him. We have Johanna Harwood, 003 who's had a romantic relationship with him, 009—Sid Bashir, who has been mentored by him, and we get to see him from all these different perspectives, which for me is one of the things I love most about Fleming's writing. He often looks at Bond from the outside, whether it's from the enemy's perspective in From Russia with Love, or from the leading lady's perspective in The Spy Who Loved Me, and I really wanted to get into those moments. How do these people perceive Bond, because so much of Bond is how people look at him in the cinemas, how we look at him. We create him with our gaze.

[O]ne of the things I love most about Fleming's writing. He often looks at Bond from the outside, whether it's from the enemy's perspective in From Russia with Love, or from the leading lady's perspective in The Spy Who Loved Me, and I really wanted to get into those moments.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah, exactly....