The Crime Cafe

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Lynn Hightower.

She writes thrillers and her latest one is most intriguing. Do you believe in the Devil? :)

See what you think after you hear this!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

You can buy Lynn's latest book here!

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. Unfortunately, our planned guest was unable to make it this week. However, my guest today is filling in for him. She is the author of numerous thrillers, including the Sonora Blair and Lena Padget detective series. Along with writing bestselling and award-winning books, she teaches novel writing in the UCLA Extension Writing Program, and is a manuscript consultant and writing coach for novelists. Very, very good. It's my great pleasure to have here today, Lynn Hightower. Hi, Lynn. Thanks for coming on.

Lynn (01:33): Oh, thanks for having me, and thank you for a lovely introduction. I appreciate it.

Debbi (01:38): Oh, well, it's my pleasure. Believe me. I was fascinated by the description of your latest novel, The Enlightenment Project.

Lynn (01:47): Yeah.

Debbi (01:48): In fact, I bought a copy. I just went ahead and just bought a copy. It just seemed really interesting.

Lynn (01:56): I appreciate that very much.

Debbi (01:59): Sure thing. Tell us what the book is about.

Lynn (02:04): Have you ever known anybody who was possessed?

Debbi (02:08): Actually, no, , not that I know of.

Lynn (02:10): Well, when you meet my hero Noah Archer, you will, He was possessed at the age of 11. He is now a neurosurgeon, very much a science guy, did not believe in supernatural things until he had no choice, and it haunted him and it inspired his career. He started a research project called The Enlightenment Project. Now, I researched a lot of neurologists and neurosurgeons, and the one thing they advise their patients to do is to meditate. And no one knows that patients have the same issues I do with being told to meditate because the minute you tell me think of nothing, Oh, please, that's not happening. And I really think the way people are told to meditate is ridiculous. I think it sets you up to wrestle with your brain. Alright? And so Noah decides that he is going to just put a hair net of electrodes, actually ceramic [sic] ones over your head, and we'll just do a very gentle electrical stimulation of all the spiritual parts of the brain, which is, surprised me to find that spiritual neurons are all over the brain. They're everywhere. Okay. It's not just one little place and that were really hardwired for spirituality. And he does that so that people can meditate, they can deal with depression or addiction, and so that they will have a protocol of a way to deal with the kind of dark entities that haunted him. Unfortunately, what he finds out is that while most of the patients in the study are thriving, some of them are in big trouble because the meditation stimulation opened a doorway to let the dark things in.

You don't have to make things up. If you study the research and you see what they're doing with their cutting edge technology, it's like, Wow, I had no idea.

Debbi (04:14): Fascinating.

Lynn (04:15): Thank you.

Debbi (04:16): Yeah, I mean, neuroscience fascinates me.

Lynn (04:20): Me. Me too. I'm very much a brain person. . You don't have to make things up. If you study the research and you see what they're doing with their cutting edge technology, it's like, Wow, I had no idea. .

Debbi (04:35): Yeah. It's just fascinating what's being done. And for somebody like myself, I have an actual chronic condition that's neurological.

Lynn (04:44): Okay.

Debbi (04:45): I'm always interested in anything that relates to neurology. .

Lynn (04:51): I bet. Yeah, absolutely.

Debbi (04:53): The brain's just a very, very complex place, and it's just amazing what people are doing. What was it that made you choose this particular subject?

Lynn (05:05): Well, two things. One, I was absolutely riveted by The Exorcist when it came out, and I was pretty little, pretty young. And the night I went to see it at the movie theater, there were tornadoes all over the city in December, which was so odd. And the movie theater had a generator, so our power didn't go out. So while everybody else in the city is evacuating to safer places, we're all sitting eating popcorn and watching The Exorcist and being utterly terrified. And I come out of the theater and it's dark. There are no street lights, there's no traffic. And after a movie like The Exorcist, I've got to tell you, that scares you to death. But I always wondered what happened to the boy this movie was based on, his pseudonym was Rollin Doe, and it was based on a real case, and they did the final exorcism at a hospital in St. Louis. And after it was done, they sealed up the room. Both of the Jesuit priests that conducted the final exorcism died. And it was off limits after that. But I'm thinking, well, I mean, when you date, do you say, "Oh, by the way, I was possessed when I was a kid, but it's all good now." Right? I mean, I would never tell.

Debbi (06:37): .

Lynn (06:38): And then I read a book by a neurosurgeon who said, who's talking about the experiences he had with patients when they were very near death on how peaceful they were, and they had such an enlightened insight, and he thought, What if I could stimulate that in the brain and give people this insight and peace all the time? Then he said, "But I was afraid to do it because I was afraid that I could bring dark things too." And that's when I thought, Okay, I gotta run with that. Yeah.

Debbi (07:18): . Now the book is fiction, of course, yes? But even though it's based on real things that you've read about,

Lynn (07:26): It's based on real things I've read about, and it's based on the science. In fact, the very thing that Noah is doing, they're just, they're very recently started doing as research at Stanford Medical Center, and they're using it to treat depression. And so far the results are fabulous.

Debbi (07:47): That's amazing.

Lynn (07:48): That is amazing. I know you can't keep a step ahead in fiction. The science is running ahead of you so fast.

Debbi (07:53): I know. It's hard to tell where the fiction ends and the reality begins sometimes.

Lynn (07:59): But I think that's actually the way we're going. I really think that it's high time for the science and the spiritual and the physical issues of the body to come together, and that's what really people need when they feel under spiritual attack. They don't just need a psychiatrist to drug 'em up. They don't need a doctor to cure what the physical symptoms are. They don't need someone to just give them spiritual advice. They need all of it. They need all of it.

Debbi (08:36): I agree 100%. Yeah, I was just gonna say that I saw The Exorcist when it came out three times.

Lynn (08:47): I know. The book was awesome, too.

Debbi (08:50): I mean, I went back twice. I was just so kind of captivated and by it, and I was young at the time. I was in my teens, but still.

Lynn (09:01): Yeah, and I think this issue of dark entities hits all of us on a very visceral, instinctual level, and it's a fear we have, and maybe an intuition that there's something out there, I don't know. But I think a lot of people I talked to were really captured and hit pretty hard by that movie and by the book

Debbi (09:26): I, and I lived near DC so I would go, Actually, there were times when we would drive by those steps and I would look at them and go, Oh, wow, there are those steps.

Lynn (09:39): Wow, I would be ...

Debbi (09:40): It would give me the eeriest feeling.

Lynn (09:42): It does give you an eerie feeling. I know. I love that you did that.

Debbi (09:47): . It was a long time ago too, but boy, I remember that. We used to drive by them going to a theater in Georgetown, actually, to see other movies. . I was a movie kid. .

Lynn (10:01): Yeah. We have a movie here, just an old fashioned movie theater downtown called The Kentucky, and that's where you're gonna get The Rocky Horror Picture Show every Halloween, and you're gonna get The Exorcist, and you're gonna get all the classic movies and all the indie movies. And it's like a local tradition.

Debbi (10:25): Oh, yeah. In DC it's The Uptown. The Uptown was the place to go, big screen. That's where I saw Star Wars,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer and travel memoir writer Sherry Knowlton.

Check out our discussion about crime writing, travel, and travel writing (with or without crime)!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

 

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is the award-winning author of the Alexa Williams suspense novels, including Dead of Autumn, Dead of Spring, and Dead on the Delta. A lot of environmental stuff mixed in there. I love that. A retired executive in the government and health insurance industry, she draws on her professional background and her extensive travels for story material. Her most recent publication is a travel memoir called Beyond the Sunset. It's my pleasure to introduce my guest today, Sherry Knowlton. Hi, Sherry. How are you doing today?

Sherry (01:36): Pretty good. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

Debbi (01:41): Well, I'm very happy to have you here, believe me. It seems like forever ago I read Dead on the Delta , and I still remember the descriptions of the safari your protagonist went on. I was impressed with how you created a story that dealt with Alexa's personal relationships as well as the political, economic and environmental issues associated with elephant poaching and other bad things. Can you tell us about the series and what inspired you to write it?

Sherry (02:18): Okay. , the series as a whole is called the Alexa Williams Suspense Series. And there are actually five novels so far.

Debbi (02:33): Ah.

Sherry (02:37): Dead on the Delta is a little bit unique, which we can talk about in a minute. But the first four are all seasons, as you said, some of them in the titles Dead of Autumn, Summer, Spring, and Winter. And those are all based in this local area where I live, which is southeastern Pennsylvania. Excuse me, I've got a bit of a frog in my throat. And I was inspired actually because I wanted to write about an actual incident that had occurred in the local area where the dead body of a young woman was found. And for years, nobody could identify who she was. And that always sort of touched a chord. And so it inspired me to write. And then each of my subsequent novels does have a theme, whether it's women's issues, environmental issues, Those are the, probably the two, the two big ones.

(03:46): When I wrote Dead on the Delta, I had run out of seasons . So, which of course I didn't think when I started with, you know, maybe I should have done something with more than four. So after I'd exhausted the seasons, I had to come up with both a new title and a new premise. And so I decided to send my protagonist Alexa Williams to Africa, to Botswana specifically to help her boyfriend who has been in all of the books, a lion researcher. So that it wasn't too farfetched to suddenly pop her off to Africa. And I was inspired to write Dead on the Delta primarily because of, first of all, I'm a big wildlife conservationist. And second of all, my husband and I have traveled to Africa on safari multiple times and simply love Botswana. And so I wanted to write about an issue that was near and dear to my heart and a place that I love to visit.

I was inspired to write Dead on the Delta primarily because of, first of all, I'm a big wildlife conservationist. And second of all, my husband and I have traveled to Africa on safari multiple times and simply love Botswana.

Debbi (05:06): That's awesome. I would love to go there. I mean, there's so, there are so many places I would love to travel. Botswana is one of them. Did you have to do a lot of research into the politics and so forth when you were writing that novel in particular?

Sherry (05:25): Yeah, with Dead on the, I mean, all of my novels take some research even though I often write about topics that I'm familiar with and, you know, the idea of writing a novel about Botswana seemed very good. And then when I started to sit down and really get into the details, I thought, Okay, you know, going to Botswana for a couple of weeks here and there over the years isn't quite being expert on the situation. So I really had to research the politics which in the middle of my writing ended up changing a little bit with a new election. I had to learn really more of the specifics of elephant poaching. And then I also realized that although the idea of being a lion researcher sounded really cool to me, I didn't really know what they did on a day-to-day basis other than like, good stuff about lions. So yes, I did have to do a lot of research and I decided, and this was partly selfish, but my husband and I decided to go to Botswana again. And we actually spent a month there at doing research for the book, both on safari and then talking to people in the capital city there, learning about the politics and so forth and the government.

So I really had to research the politics which in the middle of my writing ended up changing a little bit with a new election. I had to learn really more of the specifics of elephant poaching. And then I also realized that although the idea of being a lion researcher sounded really cool to me, I didn't really know what they did on a day-to-day basis other than like, good stuff about lions.

Debbi (07:04): That's fascinating that, that is like a once in a lifetime experience, I would think. Yeah, my gosh. Do you have plans to write more Alexa stories now that you're out of seasons? Hey, at least you didn't follow the alphabet, like somebody I can name.

Sherry (07:23): Yeah. Somebody, Yeah, somebody. Yes, I do actually, I'm working now on another Alexa book. I'd say I'm in the very early stages because I did take a detour sort of during the pandemic and write a travel memoir, two volumes. And so now I'm back into the Alexa again, getting my head back into that one. And although I, you know, I can't talk about all the specifics. I will say that she's back home in southeast, south central Pennsylvania for this one.

Debbi (08:09): Uh-Huh. And you're in south central Pennsylvania?

Sherry (08:14): I am, yes.

Debbi (08:15): Is it close to any major city?

Sherry (08:19): Well Harrisburg is the state capital, although when most people think of Pennsylvania, I believe they either think of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh which, you know, Philadelphia's on the east of the state, Pittsburgh on is on the west. Harrisburg is sort of on the southern part of the state in the middle. We are known around here. I live near a city, a small town really more than a city, called Carlisle, but we're near the Gettysburg Battlefield. People know where that is a lot of times. The Carlisle Army War College is here for the whole country. There's lots of people who go to car shows that happen in Carlisle. It's, it's funny, I'll be in California and somebody will say, Oh, yeah, I've been to the car show in Carlisle . So it's a charming little area, and it's much more rural than I think people who don't live in Pennsylvania would think. Pennsylvania, except for Philadelphia and Pittsburgh are very [inaudible] and farmland.

I live near a city, a small town really more than a city, called Carlisle, but we're near the Gettysburg Battlefield. People know where that is a lot of times. The Carlisle Army War College is here for the whole country. There's lots of people who go to car shows that happen in Carlisle.

Debbi (09:36): Yes, yes, very much. It's a very rural state, actually. And in many ways, Maryland is also a very rural state in certain parts.

Sherry (09:47): Exactly.

Debbi (09:48): Even though there's a lot that's been urbanized over the years. Let's see. Now your travel memoir, this is your first nonfiction book, correct?

Sherry (10:03): It is, yes.

Debbi (10:06): And it must have been a very different experience writing it.

Sherry (10:11): And it was I mean, it was a lot of fun in a way because it gave me a chance to sort of remember a lot of, probably a 50 year span, and it being that I wrote it during the pandemic, we couldn't travel anywhere, so it was a sort of a way to re-travel in my mind. But it took me a while to figure out the format that I wanted to do for years. People have been telling me that when either Mike, my husband, or I, you know, tell some little anecdote about our travels, they say, Oh, you should write a book about this and . And so that's sort of easier said than done, right?...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Gareth R.T. Owen.

Check out our discussion about writing for both publication and the screen!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

 

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is an award-winning author, screenwriter and filmmaker, originally from Wales, which is a country I have yet to visit, but would love to. He now lives in Los Angeles, where his short films have won festival awards, including best film and best screenplay. He's worked in feature films, documentaries, commercials and music videos. As a writer, producer, and actor. His debut novel is a gritty psychological thriller. And what better than a screenwriter to create such a book? I'm pleased to have with me today as my guest, Gareth Owen. Hi, Gareth. How are you doing today?

Gareth (01:37): Great, thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

Debbi (01:41): Oh, it's my pleasure. Believe me. I am just the tiniest bit impressed with your accomplishments. Acting, filmmaking writing. What don't you do? ?

Gareth (01:55): Yeah, I'm definitely more comfortable behind the camera and on the creative side, but yeah, I found acting was just a fun way to get on set and meet people. And I think as an actor, you have a lot of downtime. So in between takes when, you know, the crew is setting up the lights and things like that, you have a lot of time to chat to different people, and I was always inquisitive finding out what everybody did and what their roles were. And so for, yeah, you know, building a network acting was great, but I haven't, haven't done much stuff in front of the camera for a while. It's definitely, definitely more comfortable behind.

Debbi (02:34): I can relate to that. Definitely. yeah, and being on set is a very instructive thing, isn't it?

Gareth (02:41): Oh yeah, absolutely. There's so many different people doing so many different roles, and it's very fast paced and yeah, great way to learn is to just be there and see what people are doing. Try not to get anybody's way, but at the same time ask questions. And yeah, it's a great learning experience every time I go on set, I thoroughly enjoy it.

Debbi (02:59): That's fantastic. What did you start off doing? Did you start off with photography or acting or writing?

Gareth (03:09): Writing, yes. Screenwriting. I'm essentially a big movie buff, you know, I love stories of every kind but a huge movie buff. Ever since I was a little kid and we first got kind of cable TV, the film channel there. There was always one film channel and there's a movie on every night to eight o'clock, and I would always watch the movie every single night, no matter what it was. And it's great back then, because, you know, whereas now you have Netflix and all these other different, different streaming services, you've got a million and one options, then it was whatever movie was on. And so I watched a wide variety of different things. And just afterward fell in love and, and then I got, got really fascinated with, you know, where these stories came from and the structure of screenwriting and, and scripts and just sat down and just tried to do it myself.

(03:56): And, you know, struggled a lot just figuring out, you know, how everything worked and, and self-taught myself when I was younger. And then when I was a little bit older, started taking some classes and, and learning, you know, the real, getting the fundamentals down and so forth. But yeah, definitely writing to start with. There's not a huge amount of production in Wales. There's, there's stuff going on, but it's a lot harder to get involved with. So as soon as I came to California, I was just reaching out to people and trying to get on set wherever I could.

Debbi (04:29): I guess so.

Gareth (04:30): I think writing, starting out. Yeah.

Debbi (04:32): Getting to know people, that's one of the things that's really important in that business too.

Gareth (04:38): Absolutely. Yeah, I think in in all businesses really, but specifically, yeah, TV and film and it's networking is, is probably the, one of the more important things. And I, and I imagine something that almost everyone will say they're not doing enough of especially since COVID as well has made it more difficult. But yeah, again, and what I've found as well is true ... contrary to how I thought it might be, everyone in the, you know, the TV and film industry are just such nice people. Not that I expected not to be nice, but I thought it would be more kind of closed door and, you know, kind of difficult to, to get it, get a toe in the door. And it hasn't, but everyone is extremely nice and such a diverse, different group from different backgrounds, and everyone is very welcoming and happy to, to share information, and that's been a pleasant surprise.

Debbi (05:32): Yes. That's something I've noticed also. And I think when people, especially authors look at the film industry, they tend to feel more intimidated than they should be by it. Do you, what would you think about that?

Gareth (05:46): Definitely, yeah, a hundred percent. It is, you know, a transition, and I think the main thing is that you know, I don't think it's a secret that screenwriters probably aren't appreciated as much as they should be. You know, without the script, there is no movie, there is no show. But there's just so many other elements that go into it. And I think the one thing I would advise a novelist that wants to break into the screenwriting world is to really get a good understanding of the other elements that go into a production. You know, especially finances and and budgets, things of that nature. Because that can really make the difference between having, getting your script made and, and not, yeah. You know, you have to keep a pulse on kind of what the market is looking for at the moment and what people are after in terms of what they want to put out and what they think that creative market needs. But yeah, there's a lot of other aspects, but yes, it's definitely an industry where you shouldn't feel intimidated to try and break into. It's tough, It's very, very difficult, but likewise, it's difficult to, you know, write a novel. So it's a fun challenge.

I don't think it's a secret that screenwriters probably aren't appreciated as much as they should be. You know, without the script, there is no movie, there is no show. But there's just so many other elements that go into it. And I think the one thing I would advise a novelist that wants to break into the screenwriting world is to really get a good understanding of the other elements that go into a production.

Debbi (06:55): There you go. Exactly. I mean, it's all a matter of trying things. I think that's fantastic advice. At what point did you decide to write a thriller novel?

Gareth (07:09): So originally I did write the story as a screenplay. And once I kind of finished the script, I thought there's just so much more that I wanted to mine in, you know, after the story and the characters. And so I just started basically expanding on the different plot points and the different character development. And almost by accident I kind of stepped back and I was like, “Oh, wow, I've got an outline for a novel here.” So I, you know, and so I just committed to, to start writing the novel. And having it really fell into place nicely, and I just thoroughly enjoyed it. I have only written one novel, but I do enjoy writing a novel more than a screenplay, because you can just get into so much more detail and get into the mind of the characters more. And the art of screenwriting is being very, very efficient and yeah, efficient with your words, and with a novel, you just have a lot more creative freedom to, you know, get really into the prose and the mindset of the characters. And I thoroughly enjoyed writing the book. But yeah, originally a screenplay, so I kind of reversed engineered it, whereas usually it's a novel that becomes a screenplay. This is a screenplay that became a novel.

Debbi (08:20): Which is something that people should think about. . Definitely.

Gareth (08:24): Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Debbi (08:27): Let's see. Tell us about the novel. What is it about? What's the name and what is it about?

Gareth (08:32): Yeah, so the novel's called Fragile Creatures, and it is told from multiple points of view. I'm a big lover of the,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features another entry in the Adventures of Philip Marlowe entitled “The Old Acquaintance.”

You might even see a few “old acquaintances” in the video version.

And OMG, this is so obviously like Firesign Theatre’s “The Further Adventures of Nick Danger — Third Eye!”

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi: Unfortunately, our guest will not be able to appear as planned. However, instead, I have another episode from the Philip Marlowe files. This one is called "The Old Acquaintance,” and I'd like to thank the people at Old Time Radio for preserving these episodes.

THE OLD ACQUAINTANCE

Marlowe: When it started a girl's wedding and New Year's Eve were only six hours away. And I didn't think the bride to be would make either one of them, but that was before I ran up against the slot machine operator, the escape convict and above all the old acquaintance …!

Announcer: From the pen of Raymond Chandler, outstanding author of crime fiction, comes his most famous character as CBS presents the Adventures of Philip Marlowe. And now with Gerald Mohr starring as Philip Marlowe,  we bring you tonight's exciting story, "The Old Acquaintance."

Marlowe: At six o'clock in the last evening of the year, I was sitting with my feet up on my office desk, thinking of impossible New Year's resolutions and what the girl on my butcher's 1949 calendar would or would not be wearing. But at that present point, there was a soft, almost apologetic knock on my office door. I said, come in and saw a quiet man in quiet clothes, who extended a quiet hand. He introduced himself as Paul Riker, a Beverly Hills insurance broker, but the tremor in his voice said very worried client, which on New Year's Eve was something I could do without.

Paul Riker: Mr. Marlowe. You've got to find Nancy Marshall for me,

Marlowe: Just for a springboard, Mr. Riker, who is Nancy Marshall?

Paul Riker: She's my fiance. We were to be married at my place in Beverly Hills tonight.

Marlowe: On New Year's Eve?

Paul Riker: Yes. You see it was at a New Year's Eve party a year ago that we met for the first time.

Marlowe: Oh, when's you last hear from her?

Paul Riker: About two hours ago, she called and said that she was in terrible trouble. That nobody, especially the police could help her, that well that the wedding was off.

Marlowe: I see. You're sure it's not just a matter of you're being left at the altar, huh?

Paul Riker: Another man. Oh, oh no, no, I I'm certain that's not it. Now, please, Mr. Marlowe, will you help me?

Marlowe: Mr. Riker? To you New Year's Eve means wedding bells, but to me, it's something else, specifically a cozy little apartment on Wilshire Boulevard, where there's a very nice girl and a couple of chilled bottles of sham ...

Paul Riker: What is it, Mr. Marlow? What, what's wrong?

Marlowe: Shh. There's somebody outside. Get away from that door! Quick!

SFX: SHOTS FIRED

Marlowe: Whoever threw those shots through the frosted glass of my office door wasn't interested in checking up on his marksmanship, cuz by the time I got to my feet, he was taking the stairs to the street. When I got outside, I was just in time to see him plow into a pickup truck and roar off. My best I could do was get a faceful of exhaust fumes and the last three numbers on his license plate, which read 711. When I got back to Riker and the glass on my office floor, I found the potential groom whiter, shakier and less quiet than at our first meeting.

Paul Riker: Marlowe. Did you get him? Do you know who it was?

Marlowe: No. I don't. Now relax a minute, Riker, and think. Who could possibly object to you and Nancy getting married?

Paul Riker: But, but ... that's just it, if there's nobody I know of Mr. Marlowe, and I'm positive that the same is true of Nancy.

Marlowe: All right. Now tell me, where does Nancy live?

Paul Riker: In a Villa at 1428 North Havenhurst Drive, Number 12.

Marlowe: mm-hmm

Paul Riker: But I've already been there and she's gone!

Marlowe: Were you inside?

Paul Riker: No, no. The door was locked, but Mr. Marlowe,  I, I thought you had specific plans for this evening.

Marlowe: I do, but the way things stack up right now, they've got a better chance of keeping than Nancy Marshall. Now look, go back to your place in Beverly Hills, stay away from frosted glass windows, and wait 'til you hear from me. We're real lucky. Mr. Riker, it still might turn out to be a happy new year.

When Riker left the office, I called Lieutenant Ybarra at police headquarters. After being told that it would take at least a half hour to get my kind of lead outta the Seven-Eleven I had on the pickup truck license, I headed for Nancy's villa on North Havenhurst where it took me 10 minutes to outsmart the catch on the back door. Inside, except for a carelessly overturned box of old snapshots, which meant nothing to me, and a lot of half open drawers and closets, I was no place. And in the kitchen where there was a full cup of cold coffee next to an open newspaper, the setup was almost the same. Not quite because on the front page of the paper, there was a banner story complete with pictures that shouted the news of three men who had broken outta the state penitentiary that morning. And one of them, a man named Steve Doyle had a face that I'd seen only minutes ago on one of the snapshots and the overturned box. I grabbed the paper and started back to check with the snapshot once again for good measure. But the second I stepped into the living room. I stopped.

Some Dame: Hello? I don't believe I know you.

Marlowe: Oh, the voice matched the lady perfectly. She was tall, beautiful brunette, about 30 wearing a beige metallic wool jersey that covered more curves than a ride on a roller coaster. But the large monogram day on her purse meant that this was not the woman who would plan to marry Paul Riker.

Some Dame: I said, I don't believe I know you.

Marlowe: The name is Arthur Murray. You're late for your rhumba lesson.

Some Dame: Oh ho, never mind the jokes, bright boy. It's a waste of your time and mine.

Marlowe: All right, then we'll play it very straight. Name is Philip Marlowe.  I'm a private detective and I'm working for a very worried man. Now you, what's your connection with Nancy Marshall?

Some Dame: I'm just, shall we say, an old acquaintance? That's all.

Marlowe: Not enough. I'll prime the pump some more. I was hired to find Nancy who seems to be in a lot of trouble and coincidentally in trouble on the same day that Steve Doyle breaks out of stir. Now once more. Exactly where do you fit in?

Some Dame: I don't think I'll tell you Mr. Marlowe, if you don't mind.

Marlowe: Well, I—oh! Pearl-handled, huh? How very chic.

Some Dame: But deadly. Now get in that closet there, Marlowe. Go on!

Marlowe: Alright. Alright. Just so we don't go through the same routine when we meet again and we will. Who are you?

Some Dame: You don't listen very carefully, Marlowe.  I've already told you that I'm an old acquaintance. It's the season for them, remember? Now, get in there and shut up.

Marlowe: Nancy Marshall's villa was post-war construction at its worst, closets included. So I didn't stay tucked away with the mothballs any longer than it takes to say old acquaintance. The minute I'd kick my way out, I went right for the telephone and my only 100% bona fide lead for number 711.

Lieutenant Ybarra: This is Lieutenant Ybarra.

Marlowe: Marlowe, Ybarra. Anything for me on that license number?

Lieutenant Ybarra: Oh, yeah. If you're sure it was a pickup truck, the chances are pretty good that it either belongs to a party named Maurice J. Calda at 409 South Main or one Jerome Graf, 3221 and a half Melrose Avenue.

Marlowe: Check.

Lieutenant Ybarra: Uh what's up Phil? Anything I might be interested in?

Marlowe: It depends. Ever hear of a guy named Steve Doyle?

Lieutenant Ybarra: One of that gang that broke out this morning?

Marlowe: The very same. Matter of fact, he's probably driving that pickup truck right now. But look he bore it. I think I know what I'm doing. So how about letting me run this end of it until I get stuck? There's a girl named Nancy Marshall mixed up in this and a delay at this time might cost her her life.

Lieutenant Ybarra: All right. I'll stay clear Phil for a while.

Marlowe: Good.

Lieutenant Ybarra: But just so you don't get too careless, remember. Dole got outta jail this morning the hard way. He killed two guards.

Marlowe: Oh fine.

Lieutenant Ybarra: Goodbye, Marlowe.

Marlowe: When I got to 409 South Main, I knew that my first choice had to be wrong because Maurice J Calda turned out to be a bankrupt junkman and his pickup truck, which was loaded with everything, including the kitchen sink, had three flat tires and hadn't moved in a week. So if the numerals 711 were gonna live up to their reputation,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Indy Perro.

Don't miss our discussion of Central City, small towns, crime, and a bit of philosophy! :)

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is a novelist who identifies himself as an independent thinker. Yes, I like those and a recovering academic. He has a degree in history and graduate degrees in religious studies, comparative literature and education. That's quite a bit to recover from . For more than a decade, he's taught philosophy, religious studies, writing, and literature. His debut novel is called Central City. I'm pleased to have with me today's guest, Indy Perro. Hi, Indy. How are you doing today?

Indy (01:35): I'm doing well, Debbi. Thanks for having me.

Debbi (01:37): You know, I was gonna try to roll my Rs on your name, but I thought nope, no way. I can never roll my Rs. Is it a Spanish name?

Indy (01:46): Yeah. Yeah. Perro is the Spanish word for dog.

Debbi (01:49): Yes. Yes it is. And I can never roll my Rs when I say dog in Spanish. So I will always have a speech defect in Spanish. Your credentials just blow me away. You must have a lot of material, ideas for novels from your experiences.

Indy (02:09): Yeah. they tend to be a little bit philosophical in nature.

Debbi (02:15): So I noticed that.

Indy (02:17): So my, yeah, my ideas tend to be built around questions and then I develop the story to help me test out those questions and find the tension in the answers. Right. And that way there tends not to be an easy answer, but instead I can tease out different perspectives.

Debbi (02:39): I really like that. That's really cool. What inspired you to write your novel?

Indy (02:48): Oh, so Central City is inspired by the environment I grew up in. I grew up in a Midwestern city and at a time when, you know, crime rates were higher, you know, I wanna say higher than they are now, but at least higher than they were before the pandemic. And you know, I'm old enough now that I've seen sort of American society ebb and flow in several different ways and you know, crime rates dip, and then rise back up. The neighborhood that I grew up in doesn't really exist anymore. It's now like a commercial and industrial area. Other neighborhoods that were, you know, my stomping grounds as a kid have become gentrified or have gone the other direction, you know, depending upon what's happened. And I find that history fascinating. And I think that the city, you know, I've also, since I, I moved away from the city, I've lived in some pretty rural areas and was surprised to find that people have kind of weird ideas about what cities are and the way that they're portrayed on television and the movies. I didn't really realize that, you know it's, it's not terribly accurate and it's heavily dramatized. And so I wanted to tease out how does the city fit mythologically in the American imagination? How do we think about that? How do, how is that a testing ground for who we are? How do we see the other in the context of the city and how do we see ourselves as a reflection of our communities?

I'm old enough now that I've seen sort of American society ebb and flow in several different ways and you know, crime rates dip, and then rise back up. The neighborhood that I grew up in doesn't really exist anymore.

Debbi (04:31): I'm often struck with the differences in the way people view cities or rural areas, depending on where you live. If you live in the city, you have no clue what it's like to live in a small community.

Indy (04:44): Absolutely.

Debbi (04:45): And vice versa.

Indy (04:46): That's a great, yeah. That's like totally correct.

Debbi (04:50): Yeah, absolutely. I have to say your website is just outstanding. I love it. And it really focuses on Central City almost as a kind of character in itself. Did you do a lot of world building when you created your first novel?

Indy (05:11): Yeah. and I built the different neighborhoods based on different places that I've lived or visited or have some sort of connection to. And a lot of them are based on real places and built kind of the architecture and geography of the city and then built the neighborhoods out from that. And then, and there is a history to the city stretching back to its founding as a trading post. And all of these things are things that I'm working on developing for the website, but also developing into their own stories. And on the website, you can find a handful of short stories that develop the history of the characters. And in those, I've tried to develop some of the neighborhoods that maybe haven't shown up in Central City yet, haven't shown up in Journeyman, the sequel, quite yet, but they're gonna be in the novel as, novels as the series progresses.

Yeah. and I built the different neighborhoods based on different places that I've lived or visited or have some sort of connection to.

Debbi (06:13): And you're working on the sequel then?

Indy (06:15): The sequel's done. And actually has it has been done for over a year. I've had some health issues. I was a competitive athlete for my, for a number of years and have been dealing with some of the repercussions from that lately.

Debbi (06:36): I hear you. I mean, I deal with my own health issues and they're terrible.

Indy (06:41): Yeah, they can be, they can be. Yeah. So I've had a series of surgeries to help try to get me back back to where I was. Mixing that with the pandemic and everything else, I've delayed publishing just until I can do the level of promotion that I want and, and me, too.

Debbi (07:01): That's a smart move, a very smart move. Let's see. I, I read your short story "Angel Falling" and was both struck and amused by the Archangel Michael and Dante's Nine Circles of Hell, all the references there. I, I think of mythology as something we see a lot in storytelling, but you really seem to dig into it. I like that. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Indy (07:32): Absolutely. so I feel that art one of the reasons that art exists is that we can't really have a conversation with someone about something that they don't already understand. Right? You can, you know, take the lecture route or try to explain something to someone, if that's your perspective. And we have, you know, the sciences for that, etc., but when we get to the humanities, what we're doing is trying to bring into life an experience for another person, right? And historically mythology existed for that purpose. And when I set out to write and shifted from an academic career, I had to ask myself and, and sit with this question of why am I doing this? What, what is bringing this to life for me? And as I mentioned about the city being a personal environment and an environment that I care about, I also care about community. And so asking these questions about what is a contemporary mythology, right?

(08:44): What stories do we have, and do we share with one another that breathe the life into how we see one another, how we see ourselves, what are the stories we tell about ourselves in order to generate meaning in our lives and how do we have shared stories that create meaning in our lives? And when I look at the two characters of Vincent Bayonne and Kane Kulpa, who are the two main characters of the novel Central City, I see Kane as a bit of a destroyer and a redeemer mythological character. And I see Vincent Bayonne, who's a police detective, as a preserver character, and they both exist in a context historically in the early nineties. And the series of novels will go from ’92 to 2006, where crime rates are falling, but also violent crime is, you know, manifesting in different ways and cities are gentrifying and perhaps the public's perception and willingness to accept crime changes dramatically and declines dramatically.

I feel that art one of the reasons that art exists is that we can't really have a conversation with someone about something that they don't already understand.

(09:55): So the solutions that they're finding for with Kane as a career criminal and Vincent Bayonne as a police detective, who isn't necessarily corrupt, but is compromised, right? The two of them are finding solutions in order to live in a world that they understand to be chaotic. As these other forces are creating a sense of order that they don't understand and don't kno

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with screenwriter and documentarian Eva Vitija

Her latest film is a documentary of the life of crime writer Patricia Highsmith. And it's fascinating stuff! :)

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is a screenwriter and director, and she has written feature film screenplays as well as made documentaries that have won prizes and been nominated for awards. And if you go to imdb.com and type in her name you'll discover that she's made some other really interesting documentaries.

(01:24): One in particular I wanna see now is My Life as a Film. Oh boy, that looks good. That looks really interesting, but her most recent release is a documentary about Patricia Highsmith. Thus, she is on the show because as you know, if you are a crime fiction fan, you know that Patricia Highsmith was the author of Strangers on a Train and The Talented Mr. Ripley, about two very interesting characters. More than two, but anyway, but what you think you know about the author might not be who she really is. So let's talk about that with my guest. The movie is called Loving Highsmith and my guest is writer and director Eva Vitija. I hope I'm saying that right.

Eva (02:13): Vitija. (Vit-ee-ya)

Debbi (02:14): Vitija. Oh, I knew it. Darn it. I knew it.

Eva: (02:17): It's fine.

Debbi: (02:17): It's the Spanish pronunciation. Muy mal.

Eva (02:24): No, no, it's good.

Debbi (02:26): Very cool.

Eva (02:27): Actually, it's an Albanian name. So you could--

Debbi (02:30): It's a what?

Eva (02:31): An Albanian name.

Debbi (02:32): I was gonna say, I was looking it up and I was trying to figure out the roots of it. Very interesting. I just wanna say you are the first working screenwriter/director to appear on this show and a woman. So take that patriarchy. Ha ha.

Eva (02:50): Thank you so much for having me.

Debbi (02:54): I'm glad you're here. It seems you've been fascinated with Patricia Highsmith nearly all your life. What was it that provoked you, your interest as a child in her?

Eva (03:07): Actually it we always went to holidays in the village where she lived. It was a, a small village in the Ticino, which is the Italian part of Switzerland. And it was very well known that she lived there. And my parents told me that this famous writer is living here and alone with her cats and this somehow I was, I must have been around seven or something. And this somehow created a little mystery for me because I couldn't, you know, quite figure out why a woman is living alone with the cats. The first little mystery, but I think I forgot after that. And I, it only came to my mind when I was already working on that film. So, yeah.

Debbi (03:58): How interesting.

Eva (03:59): That appeared very early on in my life, somehow.

Debbi (04:02): That is very interesting. It's unique to have a famous writer like that, that everybody knows living in your little village, right?

Eva (04:09): Yeah.

Debbi (04:11): To say the least. Almost like being in an Agatha Christie novel

Eva (04:17): Yes. Absolutely.

Debbi (04:19): Having seen the movie now I can say that Loving Highsmith seems like the perfect title for this film. Can you tell me what made you choose that title?

Eva (04:31): Actually, I knew Patricia Highsmith as probably everybody else knows her, as this a bit very somber and very elegant crime writer. I also had this, you know, image of hers as being a recluse since I knew she lived alone in Switzerland and we knew all her a bit. How's it called in, in English? Sometimes I lack the words, but she had this face, you know, not very friendly when she was older.

Debbi (05:08): Kind of grim?

Eva (05:10): Grumpy, grim, and quite dark. She had this image. And then I started to read her diaries and her notebooks and they are in an archive in Switzerland because she has been living in Switzerland for the last 13 years of her life there. And when she died, all this came to an archive in Switzerland and I went there and, and I just started reading those private texts, which were not published at that time. And I discovered a woman that was so completely different to everything I had known about her. And that was for, for me, like, you know, this huge surprise because I somehow saw or discovered through these texts a woman that was a very young writer trying to get into profession and always falling in love with women. Every week you could say, or every month, another one. And she was, she had kind of a romantic side to her as well.

(06:22): And this was for me a complete surprise. I would have never imagined such, such a woman. And she somehow was very sympathetic as well. I could all, so from the very first moment I could connect somehow to this, to this woman in these texts. And I think it's from the start, it was very clear that the love, the love biography of hers, which was so present in these private texts would be the main focus of the film. So Loving Highsmith is a bit about Highsmith who loves, but also about myself or other people who love Highsmith. So

Debbi (07:05): Exactly, it does seem to have a kind of a double meaning

Eva (07:09): Yes.

Debbi (07:11): There was a side to her that people just didn't see that came out in these journals and interviews you did. Yeah. What was your process of getting access to the journals and the people you could talk to?

Eva (07:23): Mm-Hmm

Debbi (07:24): Actually, what was that process like?

Eva (07:25): The journals were, or already I could, you know, just go and I read them in the archive for the diaries. I needed a little more, it little needed a little more time because they were not, you know, open to the public yet, but after two years I could also read the diaries and I was always in contact with the publisher, of course, who owns all the rights. So they knew what I was doing and I could, you know, go to the archives, but actually a lot was already, you know, open to the public. And then I contacted at the very first moment, actually, the remaining family of Patricia Highsmith, which doesn't have the same name. They're called Coates, not Highsmith. And I was in Texas for a film festival. I just, you know, called them and asked them if I could come by sometime, and half a year later when I was there again, I could visit them. And they were quite open to my request and to my interest somehow. Also, maybe they didn't know how famous her aunt from Europe was probably.

Debbi (08:44): I got the sense that they didn't know a lot about her.

Eva (08:47): Yeah. Somehow they told me, ah, you know my dentist is he's Spanish. And he says that in Europe she's very well known. I mean, they knew that she was writing, they knew she was a writer. They, she had written all those famous books adapted to the screen for films. They knew about that, but somehow they were not aware how big she is, and they told me they still have some boxes of material of hers. And I could just look, look it through. They didn't know what is, what is inside basically. And it was full of this gorgeous photographs of her as a child and as a young woman. And this was a bit, the start of the filmmaking process, because for a film, you need images. You cannot, cannot only work with texts, of course, which is always the problem when you try to make a film about a writer.

(09:46): You have lots of texts and sometimes nearly no images. And especially when the writer is already passed away. So , but with Patricia Highsmith, there was quite a lot of really beautiful photographs of her. And she was a, she was also this very attractive, she was this very attractive, very interesting young woman. So you could immediately imagine to make a film starting from that. And then I contacted her ex-girlfriends. The first that I contacted was also a writer, Marijane Meaker. And she had written this book about Patricia Highsmith because she had lived with her, she had a relationship with her and she had written a book about that time. So it was, it was, I think the first one, I contacted. Also, reading that book, I had a bit, the feeling that she sees it a bit the same as, as I see it.

(10:55): We both had the same vision of the young Patricia Highsmith a bit. She knew her personally, of course, but what,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Kimberly McCreight.

We discuss her latest novel, Friends Like These, as well her other books, some of which are being adapted for the screen. That's exciting!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is the New York times bestselling author of Reconstructing Amelia, which was nominated for the Edgar, Anthony, and Alex Awards. Her second novel, Where They Found Her was a USA Today, bestseller and Kirkus Best Mystery of the Year. Her third, A Good Marriage was named Best Book of the Summer by the New York Times, People and Publishers Weekly. It was also an Amazon Best Mystery of the Month and will be coming to Amazon on your TV or coming to your TV by, by way of Amazon and Nicole Kidman's Blossom Films. She's also written a YA trilogy called The Outliers. Also optioned for film by Lionsgate and Reese Witherspoon's Pacific Standard. Her latest novel is Friends Like These, and I've read a few chapters. I'm just a few chapters into it and I am so hooked. It is awesome. In any case, welcome, and thank you so much for being here, Kimberly McCreight.

Kimberly (02:02): Thanks so much for having me. And I'm glad to hear your hooked. That's always good to hear.

Debbi (02:09): Oh, totally. I am loving what I'm reading. It's awesome. Am I saying your name right? McCreight?

Kimberly (02:14): Yes, that's exactly right.

Debbi (02:16): I'm so glad. I just wanna thank you so much for being here. First of all. And one of the things I love about Friends Like These is the way you've told the story through characters who are alike, but are very, very distinctive. Do you usually work from multiple perspectives? Do you usually write from multiple perspectives?

Kimberly (02:39): Yeah, all of my books are from multiple points of view, although I guess the, except for the first two of my YA trilogies, those were from a single point of view, but that was really a departure for me. So all of my other books are multiple points of view and usually multiple timeframes. Friends Like These was the most points of view I have ever done. I think there are six or seven. And also most of my books include like interstitial elements, journal entries or social media to kind of … it's this orchestral way  of telling a story. So, yeah, that was it. To be honest, I think made it a little hard for me to sell my first book because that's the way I write, which is pretty complex. But yes, it's really just kind of a natural way for me to tell a story.

Debbi (03:37): That's great. That's awesome. Do you think it makes it more adaptable for something like television or film?

Kimberly (03:45): You know, I don't know. That's a interesting question. I am adapting Friends Like These myself for Amblin Television is producing it. And so it's a first time I've actually been confronted with the real question of what it means to adapt my own books with all these different things. And I will say that I don't think it makes it easier. I immediately you know, was looking to streamline my own structure. As you know, you can have some shifting of timelines of course, even in television, but and also just multiple points of view, et cetera. It's complicated, more complicated. I think adapting.

Debbi (04:28): One of the things I think is important is the focus on character. Do you feel that you have a chance to dig more into each character by doing this?

Kimberly (04:38): Well, I definitely feel like I usually, they're not, it's not always first person. I'm usually there's one character. That's first person often, it's the character who is not alive anymore. You're usually following one storyline. You're kind of figuring out the whodunnit after the thing’s already happened. And then in the other storyline you're seeing the action unfold and they kind of meet at the end. So, and even in Friends Like These, that's true. It's just that one point of view is actually shared by this group of each of the friends, so that there's multiple points of view moving that forward. So I really lead with character, I would say I have a vague sense of plot and theme and all that stuff. I know what, the kind of the kind of story I wanna tell and I have to sense of the spine, but I really try to lean into character.

It ends up being a, a bit of a conversation as I'm writing. I mean, I have to kind of approach one, you know, deal with the plot, get the plot out there. Sometimes I figure out my characters first, figure out those plot things then kind of get the plot laid down, like the tracks of it. My agent has said that it's like a layering process. And I kind of go back and back and back and build, build the book up from there. So, but I really don't let, because I don't outline in advance there's no, the story's never driving the twists. The characters are. So I think that gives me a great deal of freedom to have, you know, hopefully stories where the characters are doing the things that feel consistent, surprising, but consistent with who they are. They're driving the action.

Debbi (06:30): That's awesome. It's like you let the characters tell the story and then you go back and reverse engineer a little bit so that the plot makes sense.

Kimberly (06:39): Right. Exactly. And so there, there are a lot of times where I'm about to do something and it can actually undo a lot of the book. As I get to know a character I'm like this entire thing, like now, now I know who they are. You know, now that I've written a draft, I know who this person is and this entire thing and who they are, I am very attached to and I find compelling and they wouldn't do these things. And so I have to, so again, the one piece, the one advantage of not outlining is I know that my process is gonna include so much rewriting. So I'm not like, “Oh, no, I just spent all this time doing this thing and oh, no, I have to upend it.” So, I'm not attached to anything because I don't have anything . So I'm like, you know, we can just rip it apart and redo it because it, it doesn't really matter. So it, it is a, it's a messy way of, of writing a book. But it does give you a certain amount of freedom.

Debbi (07:42): I think ultimately it does free you to write what really, really will work .

Kimberly (07:48): Yeah, it does. It does. And, and I think, you know, I generally have like the main ending worked out, but that's not usually where you get tripped up, you know, like it's usually in that, in the how you get there part, but that can get sticky.

Debbi (08:04): Absolutely. How would you describe your writing style in general? Mystery, suspense, thriller, all of them.

Kimberly (08:12): You know, it's funny, I've gotten this question a few times recently, and I did, I was on Sarah's Bookshelves where she did a podcast devoted to the genre a year ago and she asked me that question like, or what did I see as the difference between the the various subgenres? And I will tell you that I asked, I had to ask my agent and my editor cause I had no idea. I don't even know what, I don't know what the difference is supposed to be. I don't know what my books really are. So I have no idea. And then my editor had had some good answers. Jennifer Barth, she, you know, like a mystery was one thing where it's all, she had clear answers, but she agreed with me that there’s, the definitions are so porous. Yes. so I have no idea what … to me there's so much blurring of lines between every genre. I mean, we're talking about subgenres within mystery. I think even mystery to, you know, commercial fiction to literary fiction, like those and YA. Those, those are all crossing. So I don't know what mine are. I'd be curious what you think you might have an opinion about what they are. I'm always curious to hear. Cause I have, I really don't know

Debbi (09:33): If I can think of anything. I'll get back to you. but I'm still working through your book and I got so many books to read, you wouldn't believe, but every time I wanna pick up yours first. I'm just like, oh my gosh. Okay. Not, this is not to cast any aspersions on any of the other books I'm reading, because they're all really good. What is your latest book about, and what inspired you to write it?

Kimberly (09:58): Friends Like These, you mean you, you don't mean the one I'm working on now, Friends Like These.

...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Lee Matthew Goldberg.

Check out our discussion of crime writing, screenwriting, and our favorite movies and books. Including, but not limited to, the awesome Twin Peaks!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest for this episode writes thriller novels and he writes for adults and young adults. His books are in various stages of development for film and TV. He's also editor-in-chief and co-founder of Fringe dedicated to publishing fiction that's outside the box. That sounds interesting. He is a contributor to several publications, including Pipeline Artists. His pilots and screenplays have been finalists in Script Pipeline, Book Pipeline, Stage 32, WeScreenplay, Screencraft, and the Hollywood Screenplay Contest. He is also co-curator of the Guerilla Lit Reading Series. I'm very pleased to have with me today, author and screenwriter Lee Matthew Goldberg. Hi Lee. It is wonderful to have you on.

Lee (01:52): Hi Debbi. Yeah, thanks so much for having me on,

Debbi (01:54): Oh, it's my pleasure. Believe me and I, I had to get in the mention of Stage 32 because I'm on there, too. And it's just ...

Lee (02:01): Oh, it's good. It's, it's a good, it's a good resource. I think if you, you know, are a budding screenwriter and you're looking to like get in the industry and figure out how.

Debbi (02:11): Yes, yes, absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. It, it is an excellent resource. So let's start off. I wanted to start off. How did you start off writing novels or screenplays?

Lee (02:26): I mean, if we really go back in time, I was like a kid trying out writing screenplays, but my first actual publication was a novel in 2015 and then I had my second book optioned and there was some interest and it, it all seemed great and then everything fell apart. And in my mind I was like, well, let me just try to adapt all of my works. And then I could be the one trying to feed it to producers and try to make something happen. So that's kind of my goal now. I, I, I write the scripts of all my books and try to see what could happen.

Debbi (03:03): Mm-Hmm is there a form you enjoy? Do you enjoy doing both equally or do you prefer one format over the other?

Lee (03:14): I mean, definitely I'm a novelist first and you know, the, the time it takes to create a novel, you're giving yourself over a lot more. But I almost like screenplays now as like palate cleansers. Between books, it's a good way of me, like, you know, recharging my mind to get ready to write the next book ultimately. And if a screenplay happens and it can go forward, it winds up being a lot more money than a novel sometimes. So it could help you know, financially.

Debbi (03:49): True, true. Just outta curiosity, do you find writing screenplays more emotionally involving than novels?

Lee (04:00): No definitely novels are more emotionally involving. Screenplays like I'm working? I'm, I'm developing one of my books with a, with an actress right now into a TV show and I'm, I'm almost at the whim of her and her people, so it's like kind of whatever they want in a good way. But you, you kind of have to detach yourself a little bit from the characters, the character being turned over from the book is becoming a, a different person almost, and it's better for a TV show, but ultimately as a writer, it's like, you have to let go of the character a little bit.

Debbi (04:36): Mm-Hmm I was gonna say you do adaptations then?

Lee (04:41): Yeah. Yeah. I have, like one or two scripts that are original, but most of the time I'm adapting my own stuff and trying to make it happen.

Debbi (04:51): Mm-Hmm yeah. That's excellent. An excellent strategy, by the way. How do you divide your time between different projects?

Lee (05:01): So I'm pretty much always writing every once in a while. When I finish a project, maybe I'll take a week or two off. But I'm always working on something. So like right now I'm finishing up edits for a book I've been working on a really, really, really long time. And then after that, I'll probably take a break and maybe adapt one into a script and, and, and do that. And yeah, I, I pretty much work every day. I come I'm in Central Park now taking a break from working. So usually you could find me there under a tree in, in nice weather.

Debbi (05:35): I was gonna say for anybody, who's listening to this, as opposed to watching it on YouTube he's sitting in Central Park, there's a tree behind him, and the sun is shining at such an angle, but it gives him almost an angelic look.

Lee (05:48): yeah, there's the, there's the sun.

Debbi (05:52): Very nice.

Lee (05:54): It's good for me to sorry to interrupt, but just living in the city and it being so chaotic all the time. I find just being in nature, it's it, it, it just really helps my creative mind.

Debbi (06:07): I hear that loud and clear.

Lee (06:08): Mm-Hmm. yeah, yeah.

Debbi (06:11): So your books are all thrillers, correct?

Lee (06:16): My young adult series, I would say is not a thriller. But all my adult books are and some of them have a little bit of a sci-fi kind of connection to it.

Debbi (06:27): Mm-Hmm Your thriller, your adult books are all standalones though, right?

Lee (06:35): No, actually my current books that just came out is a five-book series. But other than that, yeah, they've all been standalones. So there's, there's one I'm thinking of maybe writing a sequel to, by I book the ancestor. I would love to go back into that world, but yeah, right now my, my series, The Desire Card came out. So the fourth book just dropped this week. And it's called Vicious Ripples, and it's about a really awful organization called The Desire Card that promises any wish fulfilled for the right price. And usually the price is you know, more menacing than anybody could imagine.

Debbi (07:14): Uh-Huh yes, yes. There goes your soul, right?

Lee (07:20): Yes. Yeah. That's literally the tagline, you know, it's those whose souls are indebted to this organization basically.

Debbi (07:27): Hoo boy. Let's see. Your YA books. What are they like and what brought you into writing for young adults?

Lee (07:37): Yeah I, I kind of wanted to take a break from thriller writing and like killing people

Debbi (07:43):

Lee (07:45): So I wanted to show like kinda my sweet side and I had this really great idea about a girl in the 1990s who runs away from home to become a grunge singer, like her idols Kurt Cobain and Courtney Love. And each chapter, it, it almost reads like a mix tape. Each chapter is set to a different song from the grunge era. And it's called Runaway Train, which was a big song by Soul Asylum back then. And yeah, it, I don't know. I always like to challenge myself. So it was, you know, in the voice of a 16-year-old girl. I am not that. So it was just a way for me to see if I could try a different type of character. And, and that's the series actually that I'm working on developing into a TV show right now. So it it's, it's got the most notice in that world randomly,

Debbi (08:38): Well, that's fantastic. That's great. It's great to write in that character's voice and not be that person, you know?

Lee (08:46): Yeah, yeah. It was really fun. I mean, I, I sort of found her humor first and then I related to that and then just, you know, remembered my own experiences from being a 16=year-old back then. And I kind of just, you know, molded the character around that. So it's a three-book series, so I was, I was in her head for three books actually.

Debbi (09:06): So you really get to know this character.

Lee (09:09): I get to know this character well. Yeah, yeah. I know, I know Nico pretty well now. And now that we're, you know, adapting it potentially as a show the, the character's changing a, a lot she's, she's a softer Nico than in the books. She's, she's a lot like harder and a little more unlikable and TV really likes characters to be likable. So that's, that's been, the biggest hurdle is really making her like vulnerable

Debbi (09:37): Mm-Hmm yeah. Likable enough for TV.

Lee (09:41): Yeah.

Debbi (09:41): Yeah, yeah. I mean, other than Better Call Saul, you know, I'm trying to think of a dislikable character,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Dwyer Murphy.

Check out what he has to say about his debut novel, AN HONEST LIVING, as well as his favorite crime writers and movies.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi (00:52): Hi everyone. My guest today is a writer and editor whose work has appeared in many publications, including The Common, Rolling Stone, Guernica, The Paris Review Daily, and Electric Literature. He's also editor-in-chief of CrimeReads a very popular site for crime and thriller readers, including myself. I read it. He is also the author of the recently released novel AN HONEST LIVING. What a great title for a novel about a lawyer. Thank you very much. And it's really a good book. I have to say that. It's my pleasure to introduce my guest Dwyer Murphy. Hi Dwyer. How you doing today?

Dwyer (01:41): Great. Thank you for having me. This is a real trip. I love, you know, I love to talk crime and noir with real aficionados. That's my favorite part.

Debbi (01:48): Oh yeah. And movies. Oh, you mentioned movies in your book and I'm like, I'm in. I love movies, especially those old noir movies. So your book I have to say really is like a love letter to New York City. I'm really enjoying it as a crime reader and as a native New Yorker. So what prompted you to write the book? What inspired you?

Dwyer (02:15): Well, it was something I had always wanted to do and had tried many times over the years for a long time, I was kind of writing, trying to write a very different type of book. I had a specific sort of very somber series, literary novel that I felt like needed to get out of me and nobody in the world needed to read that including me. And I sort of became disenchanted with the prospect at some point. And then at that point had already rediscovered my love of crime fiction and noir. And my wife was my wife was pregnant with our first child and we were realizing how dramatically our lives were about to change. And we had this sort of nervous habit that we would do. We'd stay up late watching old movies. And we were watching Chinatown one night and we had this strange habit where we kind of discuss different lawsuits the characters might bring against one another.

It's just how we like to watch movies. So my wife is a lawyer and I'm a retired lawyer and that's just how we, how we amuse ourselves, I guess. And so we were talking through the plot to Chinatown and what kind of suits Jake Gittes and Evelyn Mulwray and all these characters might bring against one another, talking about these old common law torts and things, and it suddenly occurred to me that like this could be the beginning of a, a very bizarre sort of crime novel. And the next morning I, I started the first chapter and it's more or less intact in the book as is. And that, that became the novel.

Debbi (03:48): Oh my gosh. That sounds like almost like the basis for a really cool podcast when you go down to it. Want to do one I may be serious.

Dwyer (03:59): Exactly. I do. I, I like old movies in that way. It's like a very strange engaging way to watch a movie. And it's just this little hobby that we kind of came up with and, you know, Chinatown wasn't the, the only one, but that was one that we kind of kept returning to. For some reason it gave us comfort. I think that it's probably a bizarre thing to say that when you're, you know, expecting your first child and can't sleep and you're staying up late to watch Chinatown as a comfort, but for some reason it, it really was for us. There's something about the rhythms and the textures of that kind of movie, which you know, itself is, you know, it's a neo-noir. It's sort of looking back on another era trying to recapture something from a lost period.

There's something about the rhythms and the textures of that kind of movie, which you know, itself is, you know, it's a neo-noir. It's sort of looking back on another era trying to recapture something from a lost period.

Debbi (04:41): Exactly. Yeah. And there's a comfort in that, in, in kind of going to those familiar tropes.

Dwyer (04:48): Right. And I think, you know, it made some sense to me to be, you know, I wanted to write a, an actual private eye novel. I love private eye novels, but it didn't seem so obvious to me how you would write a relatively contemporary one. This is set in 2005, 2006, Brooklyn. How you would write a contemporary version of that, because I just don't know that many practicing PIs. There's a few out there and I've worked with a few when I was a lawyer, but you know, it's not the same kind of profession that maybe it once was, but it occurred to me that a, a washed out corporate lawyer or somebody who was kind of doing neighborhood jobs and piecing together cases could act sort of in the same way. Formalistically that a, a traditional private eye might act in a fiction.

Debbi (05:35): Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I also write about a lawyer who solves mysteries, so , I know. Yeah, she's still practicing law.

Dwyer (05:47): It's just a useful thing, right? Well, because it's, you know, they, a lawyer can gain entry into rooms that a lot of people could not, and, you know, they're invited into dens of corruption in a way that most people aren't. So it gives this plausible excuse to have somebody walk in the door and be allowed into other people's confidences immediately.

Debbi (06:09): Exactly. Right. Yes. so when, why did you decide to give up practicing law and was that difficult for you? Was it a difficult decision?

Dwyer (06:21): No, it was the easiest thing in the world to to quit being a lawyer. I, the version of the law, I think I had probably like a lot of people been influenced by a lot of movies and books growing up and believed I was going to be, you know, peacocking around in a courtroom, convincing jurors, you know, fighting for the side of justice and then you know, accumulated just a mountain of school debt going to a tremendously expensive law school. And the only job that could allow me to climb that mountain of debt was to work in corporate law and Midtown Manhattan, and to be working for, you know, insurance companies and doing a lot of presentations to boardrooms and private equity funds. And it was not the kind of law that was to me personally, emotionally satisfying in any way. And I'd always wanted to kind of lead a more literary life. And so as soon as I was able to get out of that debt and put a little money together, and with the support of my very understanding wife who encouraged me, I was able to, you know, very gleefully liberate myself from the profession.

Debbi (07:29): Yeah. Yeah. I hear you loud and clear as far as like the support of spouse part too, I mean, it helps an awful lot.

Dwyer (07:41): It does, and there's always, you know, I, I sort of went through a period when I first left the law where I just, I wanted nothing to do with it. I couldn't stand the idea of it. And then, you know, a few years go by and you remember some of the things that you loved, and to be honest, you know, it's an extremely formative experience going through law school and practicing it, rewires your brain in a lot of ways. And I think I, it took some years for me to understand that there were parts of the profession that were indelible and had, you know, I, I can't escape and don't necessarily want to, and I tried to put some of that into the book as well, because my character, while acting as a private eye is sort of, you know, he is a lawyer and has approached his life in a, in a lawyerly way. At least I say that, but you know, his version of a lawyerly way is to just go out and walk the streets and smoke a joint and meet some friends in a bar. But, you know, always just kind of a telematic reasoning and sitting across from somebody at a diner, working through problems, the, those are the things I enjoy the conversational aspects of the law.

Debbi (08:49): Yeah. And all the problem solving stuff. You're always thinking things through trying to be rational.

Dwyer (08:55): It's a very, you can't help it. I think like once you've had that training, you, you can never quite get rid of it, I suppose.

Debbi (09:02): That's, it, it, it molds your brain. Turns your gray matter, you know, what was it that Houseman said in that movie? Something about turning your,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Joel Burcat.

He writes a series of environmental thrillers that you'll want to hear about.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi: Hi, everyone. My guest today is a practicing environmental lawyer and he writes environmental legal thrillers. Kind of makes sense. In any case, he has also edited legal publications, but today we'll focus on his fiction. Although given the subject matter and being a former EPA attorney myself, I can already picture this interview spinning out of control. In any case, it has that potential. I'm pleased in any case to have with me thriller writer and environmental attorney, Joel Burcat. Hi Joel.

Joel: Hi Debbi. It's great to be on your program.

Debbi: Well, it's great to have you here. Thank you for coming on and thank you for waiting. I was reading your guest post and I focused in on those words, "gray area,” and I thought, boy, that's exactly where I like to write, in those gray areas. And I always end with a kind of a bittersweet twist. I can't seem to come up with a completely happy ending. It's as if, okay given these laws, given this set of circumstances, here's the best we can do. How do you come out on that? Do you think lawyers have a tendency to do this? Is it a legal thing or is it always mystery writers?

Joel: You know, it seems to me that it's relatively easy to write a story that's in black and white. I'm not picking on him and certainly nobody can pick on Lee Child, but Jack Reacher is always sort of a black and white kind of character. You know he's always on the good side and that the other guy is always on the bad side. There's no gray area in there. And with so many other writers, it's very, very clear, not necessarily with writers, but certainly with books that they write or characters that they write, you know, that they are the good guys and that the antagonist is absolutely the bad guy. And in fact, the antagonist can be, be really, really, really bad, and then you've got your good guy, your hero, your the protagonist.

You know, it seems to me that it's relatively easy to write a story that's in black and white. I'm not picking on him and certainly nobody can pick on Lee Child, but Jack Reacher is always sort of a black and white kind of character. You know he's always on the good side and that the other guy is always on the bad side. ... And what I found in real life is that typically people aren't like that.

And what I found in real life is that typically people aren't like that. And I like to read about people who are struggling to do the right thing. And if you're struggling, it means that it's not entirely clear to you what the right thing is. And the same thing with the bad guy that the bad guy may also have good motives, he or she may have good intentions. There may be good things that they want to do, but, you know, they're contrary to what the protagonist wants. So, I like playing in that area because I think, first of all, it's number one more realistic, and number two, I think it presents some real moral and ethical questions that the readers have to think about and they have to decide what it is that they feel is right.

Debbi: I agree with you totally on that, all of what you've said, because that kind of, you know, making the villain a mustache-twirling stereotype really doesn't work for me. And it doesn't work in screenwriting I can tell you that. I mean, it does work in some types of work, but it's not the kind of work that I like to watch. The kind of villains I like to watch think they're right but do these things that aren't helping or are really going too far, and those are the most interesting villains and the ones, you know, when you have a person trying to do the right thing, as opposed to what they're doing, it just makes for more interesting conflict, I think. So, you write on a variety of different environmental issues. Can you talk a little about why you picked those issues?

Joel: Well, I actually write on lots of different issues and we'll get to that in a second. But I do write on a variety of legal issues. I've been practicing environmental law now since 1980. So, 42 years, although I have to say that for the past several years, I've been 99.9% retired, and the very little that I have left of my practice is basically just occasionally getting questions from some of my colleagues or referring some business to my colleagues. So, there's, you know, I don't really practice any longer and my license is still in existence, but it doesn't get much exercise these days. But you know, I know environmental issues. I've seen lots and lots of environmental cases like you. And many of them I felt over the years would really warrant treatment as a novel and not just necessarily the ones that I've worked on, but also the ones that I've read about and the ones that I've talked to other lawyers about and even little snippets, you know, can come to play in a story. So, it's what I do is really not unlike what say Grisham does. Grisham was a trial lawyer at one time in his life. And many of his stories are based on realistic scenarios that he worked on and other writers as well, who you know. Connelly who was not a lawyer but writes THE LINCOLN LAWYER but who was a journalist who covered many, many trials.

And so you know, you see these things, you live these things, you learn something about them. You think you have some insight that you can provide that others can't provide. And as a result of that, I really do try to use that background as much as I can. I've also written a story Wizkid, which has not been published which is about the 1950 Philadelphia Phillies and I've written a romance. Now we've all been involved in that hope in our lives. And I've written, you know, other stories that are not, and certainly my short stories are all over the map. My short stories tend to be about everything, as I say in my website, from the best beer I ever had to murder. So, you know, it's the short stories in particular ones where I can, I really do play around.

I just wrote a short story. In fact, I finished about a week ago about gardening and kind of a thriller about gardening if you can believe that. So, it's something I know a lot about, and the three novels that I've published, so far one is about, the first one DRINK TO EVERY BEAST is a story about dumping hazardous waste in the Susquehanna River, which results in the death of two teenagers. The second one I wrote AMID RAGE is about strip mining and violations of the strip mining laws and violations of blasting laws. And the most recent one that I've written that came out earlier this year, is STRANGE FIRE, which is about fracking. So, I'm writing about things that I know something about. And also I just parenthetically, I have a lot of friends who are in the industry and if I call them up and if I ask them to help me out with something, some detail to make it more authentic, you know, I know people who can help me do that again, not unlike a former detective, who's writing a story who needs to know something about a particular weapon or a particular poison or whatever it is, and knows people who can help them with that.

Debbi: Right. Do you find that you do need to do some research to write your novels, even though, you know, the area?

Joel: Yeah, I do a lot of research for my novels. Some of it, you know, fortunately, I've done it for my entire career, and so I know that stuff, but a lot of it I do have to research and I want to get the facts correct. So, for example, in STRANGE FIRE, in addition to I hope being entertained in what I think is a really good thriller, the book also presents lots and lots of information about fracking, and it's really, it's like a Fracking 101 course, but I try to present it in such a way that it's very interesting to the reader, that the reader's learning something, and doesn't even realize that they're learning something. And that they're really being entertained while they're learning, which is really isn't that the best way to learn is if you can be entertained? That very, very best college professor or teacher that you had in school, you know, who was not only a really good lecturer but who could also entertain you while you were learning. It's that kind of thing that I try to do in my stories.

Debbi: That's great. That's a great way to go about it....