The Crime Cafe

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer David Rohlfing.

Learn more here about his Detective Sasha Frank mysteries!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi  Hi, everyone. I'm pleased to have with me today the author of the Detective Sasha Frank mysteries. He is currently working on his third book in that series. It's my pleasure to introduce my guest, David Rohlfing. Hi, David, how are you doing today?

David  1:11 I'm doing very well, Debbi, how are you?

Debbi  1:14 Excellent. Thank you. Oh, I love your backdrop. Look at those covers. Very, very nice.

So tell us about Sasha Frank, what inspired you to write this particular series about this particular protagonist?

David  1:29 Well, I think I was, it was suggested to me by a friend when I was nearing retirement from my business career that I should write a book. But he suggested that I write a book about business and business philosophy and the like, in especially customer service, which I was heavily involved with. So I attempted to do that and I found out very quickly that it's difficult to write a book like that, because you're really writing about yourself and I wasn't comfortable doing that. So I instead pivoted and thought, well, maybe I could write a mystery novel. And I sat down and over one winter for a few months, and just sat down and actually wrote DELIBERATE DUPLICITY and initially, it was only going to be the first book in the series.

But I enjoyed writing it and enjoyed the character very much, who I developed and wrote a second book COLD CONSEQUENCES, but the character its himself was derived from being a small, smaller town detective. Obviously, there's a lot of detectives in big cities across the country. But there's not a lot of smaller towns and I live in a town that's got about 120,000 people in the two cities that make up this area and I thought it would be interesting to write about a smaller detective in the Midwest.

Obviously, there's a lot of detectives in big cities across the country. But there's not a lot of smaller towns and I live in a town that's got about 120,000 people in the two cities that make up this area and I thought it would be interesting to write about a smaller detective in the Midwest.

Debbi  2:57 I was gonna ask you about that. What made you choose Bloomington?

David  3:02 Well, I live here. So I grew up in central Illinois, I've lived all around the United States and outside of the United States. But eventually, we came back to where we kind of grew up or nearby, because we have family and friends in the area from a long time ago. So I thought it would be interesting to write it, again, about a detective in a smaller city.

And I picked out Bloomington-Normal as a Twin Cities in central Illinois, as a location.

Debbi  3:38 I think there’s … I don't know how if you agree with this or not, but I perceive a kind of lack of attention to the problems of smaller cities and crime in smaller cities, on television shows, things like that, then there could be I think.

David  3:56 I agree. I agree. And I think that's what drove me to write about this particular setting. Again, you see, you know, Michael Connolly in, um, Los Angeles with Harry Bosch and the Lincoln lawyer in Renee Ballard and the like, and, uh, I also like Lee Child and he writes, you know, with Jack Reacher all over the place. But I think we tend to see characters on television shows or movies or books that are in the larger cities and the crimes that are committed in those areas, which are terrible crimes, of course.

But that's right. I think that few people really pay attention to the smaller towns and cities across the United States specifically and in the Midwest, especially and in my case, more people die in one of my books in Bloomington-Normal than die realistically here on an annual basis. So crime is, it's a different type of crime. We don't see a lot of murders. We always see a lot of other types of crime.

Debbi  5:03 Yes, yes. And the people who live in those towns are also very interesting. I mean, there's a lot of community activity and so forth that people don't really appreciate sometimes.

You describe your detective as relentless. What is it that makes him so relentless or motivates him in general?

David  5:26 Well, I think he is. His father was an FBI agent, and a field office manager, as in the character of Sasha Frank, and his mother was a Russian Embassy worker who defected during the Cuban Missile Crisis and I think he has a very strong, you know, community background. He has, he fights for justice, and specifically he fights for justice for those who have died and their families and he speaks for them effectively and he does not stop until he figures out exactly what happens. So that's really the relentlessness that comes from that. He, you know, grew up in Springfield, Illinois, which is a similar type of town, within an hour's drive of where I'm at now, and it's just the nature of Midwesterners, I think, to be very strong and have strong beliefs about what's right, and what's wrong and justice in the end. So hopefully, that comes through with this particular character.

His father was an FBI agent, and a field office manager, as in the character of Sasha Frank, and his mother was a Russian Embassy worker who defected during the Cuban Missile Crisis and I think he has a very strong, you know, community background.

Debbi  6:41 Very interesting. Very cool. Where do you picture the series going? Do you have an overall plan in terms of number of books and the character arc in general for your protagonist?

David  6:54 Yes, I think I initially just was writing one book. But as I was writing, I, as I said, I really enjoyed writing, I enjoy the character. I think there's a lot of ways to explore the character, and especially, you know, this particular area, and crimes that can occur in this area. So I wrote the second book. In the second book actually is a prequel, as it turns out. And I referenced in the first book crimes that occurred in the second book and I addressed opioid, the opioid crisis that is affecting America in the second book, and how that can devastate families and have unintended consequences. So I think, you know, writing that second book, and the third book that I'm writing now is talking about, you know, obviously further murders, but maybe is more of a psychological thriller, than the first two books are. So it goes in a little bit different direction. So I'm going to keep writing, as long as I enjoy writing and people read the books.

Debbi  8:06 Would you describe your writing style as more leaning towards the procedural type of crime fiction or thriller?

David  8:17 There's a lot of procedural aspects of it. Actually, the first book won an American fiction award for murder mystery, and in the specifically police procedural category. So I write a lot about that. But I think it's also … I guess, I would view them as a thriller. The second book is much more fast paced than the first book, I think, and some of that I believe I learned more about writing as I was writing. So I learned to move through things quicker and say, more with less words, as I'm sure you're aware, to try to get your point across with the fewest number of words. So I think I'd say it's a little bit of both. Hopefully, they're very suspenseful and it keeps the reader guessing as to what's going on until, you know, the last, hopefully, last few pages.

Debbi  9:15  Yes. I was intrigued by the fact that you made your second book a prequel, which most people, with the authors I've seen, they'll write a few books, and then they'll say, you know, I should talk more about the backstory of this character. What made you decide to write a prequel on the second book?

David  9:35 Well, I think actually, as I said, I learned a lot in writing and as I was writing the first book, through the editing process with the editors and the publisher, I reduced the word count by 50% almost. So I had really gone overboard with writing, and I believe that, you know, learning and understanding how to tell a good story, I weaved in the prequel into the story because I thought I was discussing how few of murders take place in the area and as I said, both of my books have a lot of murders in them that need to be solved. But I thought it'd be a good point to point out that few murders take place....

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Alice Bienia.

Learn about her background as a geologist and her Jorja Knight mystery series!

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Today I have with me the author of the Jorja Knight Mystery series, her debut novel KNIGHT BLIND was an Arthur Ellis award finalist for best unpublished first crime novel in 2016. Her short stories have also been published in various anthologies. She's a member of Crime Writers of Canada, Sisters in Crime, and the Writers Guild of Alberta. It's my pleasure to introduce Alice Bienia. Sorry. I'm probably saying that wrong.

Alice: Yeah, no, that was perfect.

Debbi: Oh, great. Oh, my goodness. Thank you very much. It helps that I’m married to an Italian man, whose name is pronounced Ike-Angelo and--

Alice: Oh yeah.

Debbi: Not the way it looks, even though it should be. In Italy, it would be. Maybe that helps. Anyway, thank you so much for being here today. You have a very interesting background, geology. What kind of work did you do before you wrote novels full time?

Alice: Yeah, I was a geologist and I started off my career as a mineral geologist. And so what that involved was going out in the field usually remote areas that hadn't been really explored before. And my job was to basically map the area, try to figure out what lay in the subsurface. And we were looking for various mineral deposits copper, lead, zinc, uranium—later, coal, and yeah, from there, I migrated into the energy sector and ended up my career after about 30 years working as a consultant to the energy industry. So a lot of work in the Bush, lot of work, living in tents and yeah, and having some great experiences up in Northern Canada.

Debbi: Wow. What parts of Northern Canada?

Alice: Yeah, so I worked in Northern BC, Northern Alberta, British Columbia. I worked in the Arctic I worked offshore in the Beaufort Sea and also in Eastern Canada offshore on some drilling activity offshore in Eastern Canada as well. So yeah, most of my career took me to these wonderful, beautiful places in Canada that are hardly ever seen by anyone, and yeah. Filled with all kinds of interesting animals, environment.

Debbi: Fantastic.

Alice: Yeah. So yeah, it was great.

Debbi: Did you get involved at all in sustainability-type work?

Alice: Well, back in the day, a lot of people might not know this, but most of the companies had environmental departments and that was always a big concern. And so any project that we ran or got involved with that was always a big concern. What's the impact? Not only, once you found an economic deposit, it was always about, well, is this feasible to get it out? And where are you located? And, what's the impact on any people living in the area and also the environment. So that was always a top consideration. And actually, a lot of the projects I worked on did not go forward because of a combination of things like negative impact on the environment and combined with possibly an uneconomic unfeasible ability to get that hydrocarbon or that resource out of the ground. So it's only the rare finds and deposits that actually get turned into a mine or are actually accessed. A lot of it never does get developed

Debbi: Yeah. It has to be like a financial feasibility and certainly a certain amount of community buy-in, I would think.

Alice: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Debbi: There's a lot that goes on with that. I used to do land use law, so.

Alice: Nice. Yeah.

Debbi: I worked with EPA for a while.

Alice: You'd very familiar. Yeah.

Debbi: Interesting. Yeah. Tell us about your series. What inspired you to create this particular protagonist?

Alice: Well it is interesting. I've always read like mysteries and thrillers, suspense, sort of that genre. So when I started to write, I did want to write mysteries. I really liked the sort of whodunit. There’s a murder or a crime and the reader goes on the journey, with the author, trying to figure this out. And so I knew I wanted to write a mystery and I also wanted to have my protagonist as a female who's this strong, independent woman, she's not going to rely on somebody else to save her, she's determined, she's committed. She’s also flawed in the sense that she's not perfect. She comes from very sort of tough background. There's a lot of family trauma in her background. And she has had terrible luck with men. So, that aspect of her life isn't really going well.

I knew I wanted to write a mystery and I also wanted to have my protagonist as a female who's this strong, independent woman, she's not going to rely on somebody else to save her, she's determined, she's committed.

She's 38 when, when I opened the series and she used to be a forensic analyst worked in a lab and then a workplace incident where this mass shooter basically a former employee who was disgruntled and came back and managed to take Jorja hostage. And so that's sort of the precursor to what happened. And after surviving that attack, Jorja realizes that she's been living life a little too safely, tucked away in the lab. She’s 38 and she really feels that she needs to get out there and put herself out there more and experience more of what life has to offer. So, becoming a private eye is sort of a short jump for her because she's very analytical in nature and doesn't require a ton of retraining because she does have to pay the bills and look after herself. So yeah, that's the character I created in Jorja.

And after surviving that attack, Jorja realizes that she's been living life a little too safely, tucked away in the lab. She’s 38 and she really feels that she needs to get out there and put herself out there more and experience more of what life has to offer.

Debbi: That's fantastic. How many books are out in the series?

Alice: So I'm just working on the sixth one, which will be out in this fall and the fifth one came out in March, I guess, of this year was called KNIGHT VISION. So yeah. So I'm still working away and thinking about what I'm going to do with her next.

Debbi: Cool. Do you have a plan overall for how many you'd like to write in the series?

Alice: Well, I hope to keep writing as long as people keep reading them. In my head, I sort of, when I started this, I thought maybe, 12 books in the series. I have sort of a roughly drawn arc for the whole series. So I kind of figure that might take me, somewhere between 10 and 12 books to wrap up the major arc.

Debbi: Good to have a plan like that. That's great. Some of us start with a plan and some of us don't.

Alice: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Debbi: You sound like a plotter versus a pantser. Am I right?

Alice: Yeah, you're absolutely right.

Debbi: I recognize a fellow, a fellow plotter.

Alice: You can recognize them. Yeah. I don't write horribly detailed plots, but I do have to start with sort of an idea, the premise and I have to have an outline of where I'm going. And even though all my books have ended up, like the ending is always ended up different than what I had imagined at the beginning. I still need that sort of rough outline, even if it's 10, 12 pages that kind of guides me, as I put the thing together.

I don't write horribly detailed plots, but I do have to start with sort of an idea, the premise and I have to have an outline of where I'm going.

Debbi: Yeah, exactly. Right. I mean, you need something to aim for, even if your aim ends up being a little bit off, it happens.

Alice: Yeah. It does.

Debbi: Let's see. How would you describe your writing? Is it more thriller oriented or whodunit oriented?

Alice: That's an interesting question. If you had asked me this, 3 years ago or whatever, I would've said I thought I developed it and came at it from a plot basis. So there's a fair bit of action in the book itself. And then I realized that character plays a huge aspect of it because really it's, Jorja and my understanding of the character that I created that, in her response to situations that that really drives the action. So, which came first? I don't know, I think they sort of developed together, but I would describe myself or the writing itself as more of a mystery suspense. A lot of the reviewers today have thankfully said, it's a real page turner and they can't put it down.

It's less thrilleresque in the true definition of a thriller, in the sense that, who did it at the beginning and the protagonist is really j

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Lucy Clarke.

Among other things, we discuss her latest novel, One of the Girls.

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

Debbi (01:46): Hi everyone. Our guest today is the author of seven psychological thrillers. One of them THE BLUE is currently being made into a seven-part TV series on Paramount+. Her latest novel is ONE OF THE GIRLS. I'm so pleased to have with me today. Lucy Clarke. Hi Lucy. Thanks for being here.

Lucy (02:09): Thank you for having me. It's wonderful. And this is my publication day itself for ONE OF THE GIRLS. So it's extra special to be talking to you today.

Debbi (02:19): It's extra special to have you on. Thank you. I was just looking over your books and based on their descriptions, I had to think it's a sub genre called things that can go way wrong on your vacation.

Lucy (02:33): I think that is about right.

Debbi (02:39): Yes. You focus a lot on travel. Do you travel a lot?

Lucy (02:44): I do. I love to travel. Before I had children, I spent the 10 winters abroad traveling all over the world in Australia and Canada and around Europe. Yeah, and I just find it really something that I loved on a personal level and I find it really brilliant for writing as well. And I set all of my books in typically sort of exotic locations or just somewhere, yeah. Somewhere where I take my characters outta their ordinary lives at home. And I am interested to, by displacing them somewhere else, how that new place affects them and whether they flourish or founder. And that's one of the questions I, I like to explore and ask in, in my writing,

Debbi (03:38): That's a great way of looking at the storytelling taking them out of their ordinary lives. And it's the second time in two weeks that I've heard a person describe their writing as taking people, putting people in extraordinary circumstances.

Lucy (03:55): Great.

Debbi (03:55): So, right. So that's kind of an interesting thread that kind of ran through both interviews that I just did anyway.

Lucy (04:07): I feel like, you know, we all think we know our ourselves very well, but if you are tested, if you are put in those extraordinary circumstances, I'm really interested to see how people react and, and would you react in the way you might imagine? And I think that makes really interesting fiction as well as reality. And so I think using place as a tool for being instrumental in those extraordinary circumstances can be sort of a helpful way into exploring that.

Debbi (04:37): That's a great insight. Thanks. Tell us a little about your latest book. What is it about and who is it about ?

Lucy (04:46): Okay, well, I have it here. ONE OF THE GIRLS.

Debbi (04:49): Beautiful cover.

Lucy (04:51): Thank you. I really love, I really love the cover. They've done a fabulous job at Putnam. So the premise in simple is six British women go to a beautiful Greek island for a long weekend to celebrate Lexi who is getting married and in England, we call it hen weekend. And I believe in the US, it's bachelorette party and they arrive in Greece, six, very different women, all from facets of Lexi's life that reflect different parts of who she is now. And some know each other. Some don't. The stage is sort of set for this beautiful weekend away, except we know very early on that there's going to be a death and we don't know who is going to be, and we don't know who is going to be the killer, except that is one of the women. So that is the premise. So it's sun-soaked menace.

So the premise in simple is six British women go to a beautiful Greek island for a long weekend to celebrate Lexi who is getting married and in England, we call it hen weekend. ... The stage is sort of set for this beautiful weekend away, except we know very early on that there's going to be a death and we don't know who is going to be, and we don't know who is going to be the killer, except that is one of the women.

Debbi (05:55): I've started it. And I love it's told from differing perspectives and it's very intriguing and very compelling reading from the start.

Lucy (06:05): Thank you. I think having the multiple viewpoints of the six women is just a really good way to kind of dive deep, straight into their psychology and their inner worlds. So that you don't know, it's not that you don't know who to trust because I think in a way the women are hopefully likable, but flawed and messy. And parts of them, of course, you don't like, but I think the multiple viewpoints just gives that equal balance to the story. And so we're kind of left questioning the whole time, you know, who, why, what happened? So as one question is answered, another is asked

Debbi (06:46): You must work a lot on the backstories of each of the characters before you start writing.

Lucy (06:52): I do typically in most books, I normally have character biographies. With ONE OF THE GIRLS, I had a really crazy writing experience, which I've never had before. Which I'll tell you about, because it was been very unusual for me. I'm, I'm a plotter typically. So a novel would take me typically 18 months to write and I would plot it out and plan it for maybe three months and then start writing and layering in later drafts. With ONE OF THE GIRLS, I actually wrote this novel during our first lockdown in the UK. And I found what was going on globally, really overwhelming, like so many people. So I decided to come off social media and stop listening and watching the news cause I found it too much. And I thought, you know, in terms of like my writing, where do I, where do I want to be?

I normally have character biographies. With ONE OF THE GIRLS, I had a really crazy writing experience, which I've never had before. Which I'll tell you about, because it was been very unusual for me.

Cuz this world is really scary. And I decided I wanted to be in Greece with six girlfriends, even though I'm locked down in my house, that's where I'm gonna travel to in my head. So I planned the novel for two days. I decided Greece, six women, a hen weekend, four nights, let's go. And I stepped into the first character's voices knowing very little about the, that it was Lexi. She used to be a dancer and now she's a yoga teacher. Let's see what happens. And I began writing and I wrote a first draft of ONE OF THE GIRLS in 17 days and a normal novel would take me eight months to do a first draft of, and the words just came fast and fluid and without character biographies. And I felt like at the end of that draft, I knew those characters far better than I would know, characters a year in, in other novels I've written. It was just a really crazy experience for me and, and easily the most joyful writing experience I ever had.

Debbi (08:45): And isn't it interesting that it took place when you were not paying attention to social media or the news?

Lucy (08:51): Exactly. Yeah. And I wasn't on WhatsApp. I just closed everything out apart from just, like I have two young children and a husband and we are in our house together and I only had the mornings to write cuz then I was homeschooling in the afternoons, but just that light going inward closing out the noise and distractions was was amazing, amazing in terms of like my productivity. So, and I tried to recreate it since. I failed miserably. I thought like, this is it. I have like found the money ticket to writing a book. You know, this is the way tried to sort of recreate the conditions in a non pandemic sense, but by closing off social media and, and emails and stuff, but just couldn't quite access it in the same way. So I don't know if it was the story or if it was the pandemic or whatever it was, but something, something worked.

I just closed everything out apart from just, like I have two young children and a husband and we are in our house together and I only had the mornings to write cuz then I was homeschooling in the afternoons, but just that light going inward closing out the noise and distractions was was amazing, amazing in terms of like my productivity.

Debbi (09:44): Well, that's extremely interesting. Good to know. Thanks. And congratulations, by the way on having your book made into a series. How did that come about? Was, did someone contact your agent or did your agent contact someone ?

Lucy (10:00): So this is just,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with graphic novelist and crime writer Fabian Nicieza.

His latest novel is The Self-Made Widow.

Check out our discussion of his novels and the inspiration to be found in places like Northern New Jersey. :)

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a copy of the PDF transcript of this episode here.

[00:46] Debbi: Hi, everyone. Our guest this week is a comic book writer and editor who's best known as the co-creator of Deadpool, a movie I have yet to see, by the way.

[1:00] Fabian: Brace yourself.

[01:02] Debbi: So I've heard. He's also the author of some wickedly funny mysteries if the first one is anything to judge by, including the Edgar Award-nominated first novel, Suburban Dicks. I'm pleased to have with me today-- How do you pronounce it? Is it Fabian Nicieza?

[1:31] Fabian: Ah, that was almost perfect there, Debbi. I really congratulate you. You fall under the 0.01% of Americans who pronounce it properly. The way I say it is in Spanish. It's Fabian Nicieza. In English, it's Fabian Nicieza. And often in American, it's Fabian Niconza. But you did perfectly.

[1:55] Debbi: Nicieza.

[1:56] Fabian: Nicieza

[1:57] Debbi: Nicieza. I like the español pronunciation?

[2:02] Fabian: Español. Well, I'm from Argentina originally and it's a Spanish name from Spain. Yeah. So my grandparents emigrated from northern Spain to Argentina in the early 1900s.

[2:14] Debbi: Well, Fabian Nicieza, welcome to the show. And I'm glad to have you here.

[2:20] Fabian: Thank you, Debbi. It's a pleasure to be here.

[2:21] Debbi: Wonderful. When I started reading that first book, just based on the look inside feature, it didn't take long for me to start laughing out loud, literally. All I can say is, "God, what a first chapter!" You really know how to pull a person into the story.

[2:41] Fabian: I appreciate that. I had about 20 years to make sure that I had it right. That's how long it took me to write the book from my original-- I mean, I had the original idea for the book, based on things that were happening in my real life, and I just extrapolated it into fiction. It really extrapolated as an end result. But that opening chapter quite honestly, was something that I'd already conceived of in 1995. I had the book's beginning, middle and an end, and characters really well thought out back then. I just either never wrote it because I had other paying work I had to do, or I was never confident with my own prose. So I created excuses for myself why I didn't think it was good enough, and I should just focus on this paying work I have to do right now. And that's also understandable because, you know, professional writers have to earn a living and it's not always easy. So you got to pay the mortgage, and you got to pay the kids’ college tuition and all that.

[3:34] Debbi: That's right.

[3:35] Fabian: By 2017, I felt that it was almost like a little bit of a tug, "If I don't do this now, I may never do it." And, so, I started in late 2017 and almost hunt and pecked a little bit of my way through because it never was my primary focus. It couldn't be because I had, you know, I had work to do, assignments to do. So it took me till early 2019 to finish it because it wasn't something I focused all day long on every day of the week, as far as my writing goes. And when I finished the manuscript, I'd had a few people reading things along the way, and they kept being encouraging, which both confused me because I wasn't sure if they were just saying nice things to me, but also excited me because it made me think, "Wait a minute, this might be readable. This might be okay. My prose may not be bad because I finally wrote in my own voice rather than trying to write in another writer's voice, or write to genre, even write to what my expectations are of what genre is, or what an audience of that genre may want." Maybe it was good that it took me so long to write it because at the age I was at with the experience I had, I kind of just said, "The hell with it. Let's just go on, let's just write how I want to write it." And that's what I did.

By 2017, I felt that it was almost like a little bit of a tug, "If I don't do this now, I may never do it." And, so, I started in late 2017 and almost hunt and pecked a little bit of my way through because it never was my primary focus.

[5:07] Debbi: I think when you reach a certain age, you realize, "Hey, I got to do it now or I may never do it."

[5:13] Fabian: Yeah, definitely, because it becomes much easier to create excuses not to, when you're getting older, and you don't have as many financial responsibilities if you're lucky, which I am, because, you know, the mortgage was paid off, and the kids were finishing, the second kid was finishing college, so that horrific tuition cost was gonna be gone. And I was like, "Alright, so if my financial expectations kind of are getting reduced a little bit now, what's my excuse gonna be?" You know, I better do it because I won’t start at age 70, probably, you know. And I turned 60, the year it came out, which was kind of cool. It was kind of nice that, that was the year that was because it was also a year where an animated cartoon series for 4-6 year-old kids that I had developed a couple of years earlier also came out. So within a couple of months of the book coming out, I wrote something that was aimed at four-year-olds, and I wrote something that was aimed at 44-year-olds, you know, at the same exact time.

[6:18] Debbi: Fantastic. That's wonderful. What inspired you to create this particular protagonist, and write this particular book, in this particular way?

[6:29] Fabian: Well, the particular way was just my own sad, twisted brain.

[6:33] Debbi: Tell me your mom didn't work for the FBI.

[6:36] Fabian: No, it did not. No. The genesis of the book came first, then the characters came second. And the genesis of the book, like I said, was based on real-life circumstances. We had a gun club on the other side of a pond behind my house that we had moved into in 1993. And we tried to get them to stop outdoor shooting because they had the propensity to once in a while feel like lobbing bullets in our general direction. And, we lost that town council battle five to four, to ban outdoor shooting. We didn't want to stop them from indoor shooting, the gun club had been there for 50 years. But it was like six residents of the town I lived in West Windsor and the rest of the members of the club were from other towns. And it just felt ludicrous that this new neighborhood was built on the other side of the pond that was in the same general direction as their pistol berms were.

So when we lost five-four, my first inclination as a writer is, "I need to come up with a story that gets revenge on them." And that's what it was. I thought, "What if we found out something that makes the gun club look so bad, that it forces them to shut down?" And I thought, "What if members of the gun club had killed someone years ago, and the body starts turning up now, that would really put them in trouble, right?" And as you can tell, if you read the book, it really did. And it used parts of that in theory, but it really extrapolated itself into something different. And that was born of the time that it took me to write. And all of the characters really are kind of amalgams and mishmashes of different people and personality traits that were in my life around that time. Friends, many of whom are still friends to this day, we all were of the same age, we were all around the same time period. You start getting married, you get your first condo, your first townhouse, your first house, then you start having your first kids. And all of us were around that same, you know, early 30s age where we were all starting to have our first kids, and we'd all gotten our first homes.

So the character of Andrea came born of the idea of, "What if this woman who should have been this can't be this now because she is pregnant with her fifth kid?" I think that was just exaggeratedly burdensome on purpose for the sake of parody and heightened drama.

So the character of Andrea came born of the idea of, "What if this woman who should have been this can't be this now because she is pregnant with her fifth kid?" I think that was just exaggeratedly burdensome on purpose for the sake of parody and heightened drama. And Kenny was really a riff on myself at that time....

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer and bestselling author Fiona Barton.

Check out our discussion about her work including her latest novel Local Gone Missing. And we chat a bit about Doctor Who. :)

Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here's a PDF transcript of the interview.

Debbi (01:46): Hi everyone. We're back with our first episode of Season Eight and I'm so excited to have with me a distinguished journalist and a New York Times bestselling author. Previously a senior writer at the Daily Mail, news editor at the Daily Telegraph and chief news reporter at the Mail on Sunday, she's had lots of experience covering crime in her 30-year journalism career. She is also, as I said, a New York Times bestselling author of The Widow, The Child, and The Suspect.. Her latest book is Local Gone Missing. I'm pleased to introduce my guest, Fiona Barton. Hi Fiona. I'm so happy. You're here today.

Fiona (02:32): Hi, it's so good of you to have me on. Very pleased to be here.

Debbi (02:36): Well, I'm extremely happy to have you here, and I've gotta tell you, I was looking over your books and the first two books concern your sleuth, Kate Waters, who's a journalist. Now, I suspect that a lot of that writing was inspired by your 30 years as a journalist. That's just a guess on my part. What do you have to say about that?

Fiona (03:01): Pretty good guess, pretty good guess. Well, it's interesting, because when I started writing The Widow, my first book, I didn't have a reporter in it. It was about a marriage with secrets. It was gonna be told by Jean, my widow in the title. And I thought, oh, I need somebody for Jean to be telling this to. So, Kate came knocking at her door, and gradually her part in the book sort of got bigger, because I loved writing her. It was coming home, you know, she's been everywhere. I've been. And so I kept her for The Child, the second book. And she was the investigator really in the second book. And then the third book, The Suspect, she was still there, but I turned the tables on her poor lady. And she became the story and I thought at the end of The Suspect that I probably ought to let her have a lie-down. She'd been through a lot. So, I rested her and started writing about a whole new cast of characters.

Well, it's interesting, because when I started writing The Widow, my first book, I didn't have a reporter in it. It was about a marriage with secrets.

Debbi (04:18): Hmm. Did that lead to the book that you have now? The latest?

Fiona (04:22): Well, it did in the end. Um, yeah, I had a bit of a false start with Book Four. I wrote something different and didn't quite work as I wanted it to. And so I asked if we could set it aside. And my wonderful editors, wonderful publishers said yes. And so then I went to, then I started writing Local Gone Missing.

Debbi (04:51): Mm-hmm yeah. I noticed that this is kind of a deviation from what you've done before. Would, that be fair to say?

Fiona (05:00): Oh yes, very much so. So instead of having a journalist, I've got, a woman, a female murder detective who is at a real crossroads in her life. She's one of these women who she knew where she was going. She knew what she was gonna do, driven, didn't want a family, all about the job. And that was brilliant until her life imploded. She was diagnosed with breast cancer and her long-term partner left, uh, rather brutally. And she's moved to a new town, a little seaside town where she's kind of, she's on sick leave and doesn't know whether she could, whether she can go back to doing what she used to do, whether she can ever be that woman again. So very vulnerable, feeling very vulnerable. And so she's at the heart of the book, a brand new character. And I think the themes of the book are me, anyway, Elise King, D.I. Elise King. It's her journey, a personal journey. But also, going back to work through this rather amateurish investigation that she, uh, that her neighbor persuades her to get involved in. But it means that, you know, she's using all her skills. So, it's a really positive thing that she's doing.

About the latest book: She's one of these women who she knew where she was going. She knew what she was gonna do, driven, didn't want a family, all about the job. And that was brilliant until her life imploded.

Debbi (06:45): I find that rather fascinating, the concept of a skilled trained investigator being sidelined by a health issue and wondering if she can continue to do it and trying to find ways to do it.

Fiona (07:00): I think, you know, you are seen differently when you've had a life threatening illness, and the treatment is so brutal. It, you know, it does leave you feeling vulnerable. And, you know, she's not sure that. She's frightened, I think, that she might drop the ball, because she has brain fog from the chemo and, and her strength isn't as it was. And all of those things, she thinks she's gonna be judged by her colleagues. She is a woman in a man's world. So yeah.

Debbi (07:40): Do you think this kind of plays a little toward what a lot of women might feel at a certain age?

Fiona (07:47): Yes, absolutely. Yes. Welcome to my world.

Debbi (07:51): Amen.

Fiona (07:53): Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, absolutely. There's been a lot of discussion here. I don't know whether it's been the same in the States about women's health, especially around the menopause and HRT, and lots of issues about that. About how, you know, women are sidelined when they get to a certain age, they become invisible. And it's true. I mean, it is astonishing, but it is true that people just don't notice you, anymore. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Debbi (08:29): I'd say there's a certain amount of discussion about that here, for sure.

Fiona (08:32): Oh, good. All right. Yeah. Good. No, big.

Debbi (08:34): Whatever. Yeah. Whatever discussion we don't generate ourselves, we steal from you guys, I guess

Fiona (08:40): , I'm sure.

Debbi (08:41): You guys have---

Fiona (08:42): Two-way traffic, isn't it? Must be.

Debbi (08:44): Great television shows. I gotta tell you I've been watching some wonderful stuff on the BBC America.

Fiona (08:51): Excellent. Yeah.

Debbi (08:52): Yeah. Excellent.

Fiona (08:53): It's an age for television drama at the moment on both sides of the Atlantic. Yeah,

Debbi (08:58): Absolutely.I was reading in one of your interviews that you like to write about ordinary people dealing with extraordinary situations. I thought that was a great concept. One that I've always been fascinated with.

Fiona (09:11): Sure. And I think, you know, because so much of journalism is that, the sort of journalism that I was doing, the reporting I was doing, it was news journalism. So I wasn't specializing in politics or health, or it was human interest stories. It was, uh, and crime and all sorts of things really, but it was a lot of ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances. Some bad, most bad, and some good, you know. Sometimes there are happy stories. Thank God. But, yeah. So I did a bit of an apprenticeship, really 30 years writing about that before I came to fiction.

So I wasn't specializing in politics or health, or it was human interest stories. ... crime and all sorts of things really, but it was a lot of ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances. Some bad, most bad, and some good, you know. Sometimes there are happy stories. Thank God.

Debbi (09:59): Very, very interesting. I was trained in journalism actually, but ended up going to law school.

Fiona (10:06): Ah.

Debbi (10:07): Go figure.

Fiona (10:08): Well, yes, there's a lot of crossover.

Debbi (10:12): There is actually.

Fiona (10:13): Yeah.

Debbi (10:13): Yeah. I had a great period of adjustment from writing legal stuff to writing fiction myself. I saw that you spoke about that in another interview about the difficulty of, oh, I'm allowed to make things up.

Fiona (10:27): I know it's a weird thing. Isn't it? You would think it would, it would be an easy thing to do, but it is not. And still, I do like to be grounded in real situations, real people, even when I'm just sort of taking, you know, an expression here, you know, something that someone said there, but even so, you know, I don't write science fiction or fantasy. I need real people. So, yeah, I'm stuck with that. I think.

Debbi (11:02): I know what you're talking about. I like dealing with, you know,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer, screenwriter, and producer Sascha Rothchild.

Check out our discussion of her debut novel Blood Sugar! And a bit of chat about screenwriting.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a PDF transcript of the interview!

Debbi: Hi everyone. Our guest on the final episode of Season 7 of the Crime Cafe is an Emmy-nominated screenwriter who just released her debut novel, Blood Sugar and I have a copy right here and check out that cover!

If you're watching on YouTube, I tell you that is a beautiful cover. Her credentials include working on the public radio show This American Life, writing a memoir-turned-screenplay called How to Get Divorced by 30, writing and producing various television shows—GLOW, The Bold Type, The Baby-Sitters Club and The Carrie Diaries, to name a few. And she's now a showrunner for a Netflix series. Her feature film screenplay Who Invited Her? has been optioned by DreamWorks with Reese Witherspoon to executive produce it. Not too shabby, as they say.

It's with great pleasure that I introduce my guest Sascha Rothchild. I hope I said that right.

Sascha: Yes. It's a mouthful. Sascha Rothchild. I know my parents had fun with that one.

Debbi: Well, very cool. I just want to thank you for being here, spending time with us first of all. I could ask you 10,000 questions based on your background, but we'll start with the book anyway. What prompted you to write a novel?

Sascha: I had an idea late at night that started with a personal event. My husband is a Type 1 Diabetic, and he had a low blood sugar at night, which is quite dangerous. He has a continuous glucose monitor and it beeps very loudly to wake him up so he can eat sugar and he had a low blood sugar. There was the beeping. I woke up, I woke him up, he ate sugar, he's safe and healthy, and he fell right back to sleep. But I was wide awake and my writer brain started turning and asking, well, what if and what if?

And I thought, well, what if he had died? Well, that would be horrible. But then I moved on to story and plot and I thought, what if the police thought I killed him because the spouse is always the first suspect? And then I thought, wait! What if I actually had murdered people in my past and gotten away with it. Now I'm being investigated for the one murder I didn't commit. And I thought this is a novel. This is a thriller. I had never written a thriller before, but it just clicked for me, and I grabbed my cell phone and I made notes in the notes section so when I woke up the next morning it would be there. And I woke up and I looked at my notes and I started writing.

And I thought, well, what if he had died? Well, that would be horrible. But then I moved on to story and plot and I thought, what if the police thought I killed him because the spouse is always the first suspect? And then I thought, wait! What if I actually had murdered people in my past and gotten away with it.

Debbi: Wow! Well, that's very, very interesting. And I have to ask, this is the first novel you've written, correct?

Sascha: Yes.

Debbi: And congratulations by the way on debuting with your novel. That's awesome.

Sascha: Thank you.

Debbi: Screenwriting and novel writing are two very different things. They're similar in certain ways, but they're very, very different in others. What was it like for you to switch gears from screenwriting to novel writing?

Sascha: It was very different. In one way, it's very solitary to sit and write a novel. You're alone with your computer and you're building this world by yourself. Screenwriting for television, there's writer's rooms. There's many voices that are added. There was something really exciting for me to just be alone with this world, with this idea and another difference, which I think I ended up sort of pulling some of my screenwriting into the novel was in screenwriting, every word costs money. So if you write a character walks down a windy street, you have to pay for the wind. There has to be a wind machine and somebody wrestling a tree and the hair people have to fix the windy hair, so every detail has to be important to story or character or else it's a waste of money. With a novel, the words are free. You can write whatever you want. So I really opened myself up to writing in that way, but I kept in mind when things were important and why, so that every detail actually did come back and actually did relate to story. I tried not to have tangents that weren't serving the main plot and character. So in that way, they were very different, but I pulled in my screenwriting for the novel.

It was very different. In one way, it's very solitary to sit and write a novel. You're alone with your computer and you're building this world by yourself. Screenwriting for television, there's writer's rooms. There's many voices that are added.

Debbi: I think in many ways, learning screenwriting can really help novelists from so many perspectives. I mean, not just the idea of keeping the story moving forward and not going off on too many tangents, but also the conciseness, the use of words to evoke a feeling, things like that.

Sascha: Yeah, I think it was really exciting for me because as I wrote it, I really could see it. I could see the scenes, and I wrote the chapters. They're very short chapters, like scenes in a show and the cliffhangers are very much like episode endings. My hope was in the way that when I write for Netflix series, you want to sort of have people binge it and click next episode and click next episode that I hope that this novel, it was sort of binge reading in the sense that the reader would want to go to the next chapter and the next chapter, and then stay up and finish it and it's four in the morning.

Debbi: Well, I can tell you from just from reading it that it does. It is. It's that kind of reading and I love short chapters like that. They work very well, and all of it is so very much informed by screenwriting and it's great. One of the interesting aspects about all this is that here's a woman. She's being tried for a murder she didn't commit, yet she's committed these other murders, and at one point since she's kind of an unreliable protagonist, did you ever consider that she might just be lying?

Sascha: I felt getting into her head that she was telling us the truth. Now, when she told us the truth was a question of when she's dropping certain things, but that she's being honest with the reader and letting the reader know this is who I am. This is what I've done. I am telling you the real story. And I think it will be up to the reader to decide, can they trust her throughout? At what point do they trust her or do they never trust her? But I, as I wrote it, trusted her.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a good way of putting it, because really for the reader, there is an ambiguity, or you can find an ambiguity if you're looking for it.

Sascha: Yeah.

Debbi: But as a writer, I like that you believed her as a protagonist because that makes her more real as a person. I thought the book dealt really well with issues like trying cases in the press, so to speak, or these days in social media and the press, because this is kind of a problem. I mean, we are supposed to be presumed innocent until proven beyond a reasonable doubt that we are guilty. And so I thought that issue, was that something that kind of informed the novel as well?

Sascha: It did. Well, one thing I thought a lot about is when crime and true crime becomes entertainment and the lawyers become the peacocks and it no longer is about the crime, but about the characters around it. It really, one, raises stakes in terms of storytelling because now you've got cities involved or countries watching. So I was very interested in that, but also in that public perception is very much a part of our justice system now and what can be done about that? I don't know, but I thought it was an interesting thing for story for sure.

Well, one thing I thought a lot about is when crime and true crime becomes entertainment and the lawyers become the peacocks and it no longer is about the crime, but about the characters around it.

Debbi: It definitely creates a lot of tension. Do you plan on writing any more books?

Sascha: I do....

This week’s episode of the Crime Cafe comes to you courtesy of Old Time Radio and Raymond Chandler! 🙂

Due to problems beyond my control, our guest wasn’t available. However, the show must go on! 🙂

So here’s your latest episode, an old Philip Marlowe radio story, "The Hard Way Out"! 🙂

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Support the show on Patreon!

Enjoy the podcast! 🙂

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Ben Westerham.

Check out our discussion of his David Good P.I. and Banbury Cross Murder mystery series!

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a PDF transcript of the interview!

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of two crime and mystery series. One is the David Good, PI series, and as you can see if you're watching me on video—or not see if you're listening—I’m holding up my Kobo with the second David Good book queued up and ready to read. I am a big fan at this point of the Good series, and also it is a good series, more than just the protagonist. He also writes the Banbury Cross Murder Mysteries, which I haven't tried yet, but they certainly sound interesting. Originally from London, he now lives in rural Northamptonshire in the Midlands. I'm pleased to have with me crime writer, Ben Westerham.

Hi Ben, how are you doing today?

Ben: Hello, Debbi. I'm not so bad and it's great to be here. Been looking forward to this for quite a while.

Debbi: I know. It took long enough, huh? My gosh, I cannot believe how many people are signing up for this thing. I'm booked into 2024, believe it or not.

Ben: You are super-popular, aren't you?

Debbi: I don't know how this happened. I don't know. It's one of those inexplicable things. I have to say that one of the things I enjoyed about the first David Good novel was that it was a hardboiled private eye story with a distinctive British feel to it. I've read all kinds of British fiction, all kinds of private eye fiction, but this one really felt like Raymond Chandler channeled through a British veil or with a British accent, and a feel of almost parody about it but not quite. Is that what you're going for here? Is it parody?

Ben: I'm delighted to hear you say that. Yes. When I sat down to decide what I wanted to write for the first series, I'm not surprised; I read a lot of crime, so immediately I was drawn to crime. And I did then think I wouldn't mind having a go at hardboiled, but I couldn't get myself just to write straight hardboiled, I think in no small part it's the old imposter syndrome thing. You just think so many other people done it so well, I'm going to come along and what am I going to do? But I do like humor as well so what I've tried to do is exactly those bits that you've already mentioned was to bring the hardboiled together with a British take on it and humor. So not comedy, but humor so you get a nice mix, cause sometimes the harder edges, there's a nice counterpoint when you can bring in a bit of humor as well. So I'm delighted to hear you say that.

When I sat down to decide what I wanted to write for the first series, I'm not surprised; I read a lot of crime, so immediately I was drawn to crime. And I did then think I wouldn't mind having a go at hardboiled, but I couldn't get myself just to write straight hardboiled,

Debbi: That's great because that's the way it comes across to me and it's humor with a 'u', so it definitely has ... all your Britishisms, I just love them.

Ben: That’s quite interesting.

But I do like humor as well so what I've tried to do is exactly those bits that you've already mentioned was to bring the hardboiled together with a British take on it and humor. So not comedy, but humor so you get a nice mix, cause sometimes the harder edges, there's a nice counterpoint when you can bring in a bit of humor as well.

Debbi: It's awesome. The irony is that Raymond Chandler spent a lot of time in England as a child, so it's almost like this seems perfectly natural somehow, even though he's so associated with Southern California. This felt natural and fun and good to me. How many books have you written for the series?

Ben: People ask me this and then I go, oh, because I forget there's the box set, so I think there's seven now in that particular one in total.

Debbi: Seven! Wow!

Ben: But I've been writing some short stories for that series as well, so I'm just deciding at the moment what I'm going to do with those.

Debbi: Excellent.

Ben: So there will be some more coming along.

Debbi: That's great. That's a great idea. Do you have more novels planned for the series?

Ben: I've got no end of ideas. I don't know you find this yourself, ideas just pop into your head all the time. So you jot them down. You add them to that never ending list of ideas that you've got. Some of them are for David Good. Some are for the Banbury Cross Murder Mystery Series. And I've decided to make things more difficult for myself by coming up with a third series, which I'm hoping to publish the first book of that this year. So I suspect there won't be another David Good this year, but there could possibly be another one next year, and there will be other ones going forward because I just love writing those. I think partly because it's the fact they're written in the first person. I said sometimes to people, I feel as though I'm not merely standing there with Good. I'm like a parrot sitting on his shoulder. I'm that close and you just follow him around and that's just fantastic to write.

I've got no end of ideas. I don't know you find this yourself, ideas just pop into your head all the time. So you jot them down. You add them to that never ending list of ideas that you've got.

Debbi: Yes, yes it is. Absolutely. You capture a lot of London, the locations in London in the book as well. Do you do that in a deliberate way to try to create a London feel to the story, make London a character as it were?

Ben: Yeah. Well, I do that partly I've lived in London at least a couple of occasions. The first one I won't remember because we moved when I was four. Yes, I can remember barely nothing of that, but that was south London. And then the second time I had a stint for about a year to 18 months. Again, I was spending most of my time in south London. So I was pretty familiar with that territory, which is why I decided to set the David Good stories there. I do think with those kind of books, you really want to do your best to get across the feel of the place - the sights, the sounds, the smells, everything. So I definitely try and put as much in there as I can without overwhelming people.

Debbi: Do you do a lot of research before you write a story?

Ben: Generally speaking, no. I do some research, but with the David Good books, I've written into the dark. I've been a pantser, no plotting, therefore no research. I know where they're set. I know my characters; they're already built up and honestly with David Good, I can just sit down, a sentence will come into my head and I'm gone and I just follow him.

I'm definitely one of those writers, once I start, I don't stop to check up street names and things like that. I will just write down X, Y, Z if I need to and I will come back and do that little bit of research later on and just fill it in, just so I can keep the flow going so it does vary a bit. With the Banbury Cross murder mysteries, I did a little bit more research, partly because I didn't pants those. I plotted those out for a bit of variety. So it worked to do it like that. But with David Good, no, I just write and tidy up afterwards.

I'm definitely one of those writers, once I start, I don't stop to check up street names and things like that. I will just write down X, Y, Z if I need to and I will come back and do that little bit of research later on and just fill it in, just so I can keep the flow going so it does vary a bit.

Debbi: I love it. That's just so cool. Tell us about the Banbury Cross mysteries. What are they about? I know they're about an inspector and a sergeant.

Ben: Again, there's going to be a common theme to that that we've already touched on. I wanted a second series like so many crime authors and readers of Agatha Christie I like, and Banbury, if you ever get the chance to visit the town, although it's changed quite a lot over the last two or three decades, it's got a definite feel about it that you can use for those kind of stories. Until very recently, it was pretty agricultural still in an English kind of way, and then it's got lots of other towns around it like Leamington Spa and Warwick that are not too far away, which you can draw into the stories. So I decided I'd write something a little bit along the lines of Agatha Chri

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Josh Cybulski.

Don't miss our discussion of his debut novel, Second Story Work!

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a PDF transcript of the interview!

Debbi: Hi everyone. Today, my guest comes to us from Canada, an awesome country with great writers and great TV shows, and the author of the crime novel, Second Story Work. One of those authors from Canada. It's my pleasure to introduce my guest for this week, Josh Cybulski. Hi, Josh. How are you doing?

Josh: I'm great. How are you?

Debbi: Great. Excellent. Good. I love like your arrangement of posters back there. Very cool.

Josh: Oh, thank you. I have the poster for the book right there, and then a couple of my favorite movies—Back to the Future and Fight Club.

Debbi: Excellent. Two excellent choices, I have to say. For movies, for sure. Nice poster of the book, too.

Josh: Thank you.

Debbi: So, tell us about the novel. This is your first novel. What's the book about?

Josh: Yeah. So Second Story Work as you mentioned, it's my first novel. It's about four friends who graduate from college in 2000—well, the end of 2007—and they move to Vancouver, British Columbia, which is on the other side of Canada from me to start their careers in the film industry. And if you remember anything about 2008, the entire economy tanked in 2008. So in the book, the characters can't get work. Basically they move to Vancouver. They're unable to get work, they can't pay their bills. So at one point they're presented with an opportunity to commit a crime that basically allows them to pay their bills and stay in Vancouver for a while. So they end up doing so, and from there, they basically blow through their money rather quickly and then they're in the same position where they no longer have money to pay their bills. So once again, they turn to crime and it creates a snowball effect that carries you throughout the novel. With each crime comes an escalation, a brazenness and they get more and more brave, we'll say, as they go through the book, and that's pretty much the gist of it.

They're unable to get work, they can't pay their bills. So at one point they're presented with an opportunity to commit a crime that basically allows them to pay their bills and stay in Vancouver for a while. So they end up doing so, and from there, they basically blow through their money rather quickly and then they're in the same position where they no longer have money to pay their bills.

Debbi: Interesting. Would you describe the style as thriller or noir or somewhere in between?

Josh: Some people have said it's really more of a thriller. Personally, I've referred to it as a neo-noir. It is sort of the anti-hero that's become very popular in the last few years. So for anyone who watches TV, we have Walter White from Breaking Bad, the anti-hero Vic Mackey from The Shield which is a great television show in the mid-2000s. So the anti-hero has kind of become the thing and that's sort of what I was going for with the four characters in Second Story Work. So yeah, I would definitely put it in the neo-noir category if I had to pick.

Some people have said it's really more of a thriller. Personally, I've referred to it as a neo-noir. It is sort of the anti-hero that's become very popular in the last few years.

Debbi: That's a good category. I like that. It's good in movies as well as books.

Josh: Absolutely.

Debbi: It's an ensemble piece, kind of, of four characters, but is there a main character for you in these four?

Josh: Yeah, definitely. The main character's name is Derek Sierzant. He's the son of Polish immigrants, people who moved from Poland into the Ottawa valley, which is kind of central in Canada. He would be the main character and then he's got three friends that he lives with, who basically go by nicknames. So there's Messy, who's also from the Ottawa valley and then Hecky, who is kind of from Northern Ontario, which is a really secluded area of Canada, and then lastly, there is R-Luv, who's from Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is kind of a secluded city right in the middle of Canada. So those are your four main characters and then there's tons of other characters that are more bit pieces, but those are your core four.

Debbi: You mentioned that he was raised, the main character, in a Polish community? Does that community kind of inform the book to any extent?

Josh: Yeah, actually. I grew up in a Polish community myself in the Ottawa valley. Outside of my hometown, you go and there's a rather large Polish settlement, so that was always part of my culture growing up. I spent a lot of time going to little towns like that, that would have Polish pubs and they would serve Polish meals and stuff like that. So that was definitely something I wanted to bring from my heritage into the book. It's funny, I spent a lot of time in those places and then realized like two years ago that I was actually Kashubian, which was kind of my whole ancestry was a bit of a lie when my brother and I actually started to look into it. Not a lie, but it was a little bit different than what we thought. Yeah, there's a big Polish element that kind of infiltrates the book, so the main character Derrick, anytime he goes out to a bar or a pub, he always orders a Polish beer or a Polish vodka or something like that. And whenever he is cooking, he tends to cook Polish food. So it was one of those subtle things that I put in the book, but it was sort of, I guess, a tribute to my heritage.

Outside of my hometown, you go and there's a rather large Polish settlement, so that was always part of my culture growing up. I spent a lot of time going to little towns like that, that would have Polish pubs and they would serve Polish meals and stuff like that. So that was definitely something I wanted to bring from my heritage into the book.

Debbi: That's really cool. I'm actually in a writer's group with somebody who has Polish ancestry. So it's fascinating to hear this. What inspired you to write this book in particular?

Josh: There's a number of things. My background actually was originally in journalism and then I ended up going to film school and I myself tried to break into the film industry. I didn't really have much luck, which was sort of what inspired me to write the book. I wanted to write a story about my struggle, and as I started to research more and more for the book, it became less about my struggle and just more about fictional characters in a fictional world of Vancouver. So also living in Vancouver, kind of seeing the crime that was out there and the drug war that was going on during the time I lived there, I don't know why, but it spoke to me. I found it very interesting to see a lot of people my age fall into that world, and I actually had my roommate become … he basically joined a gang. He was out of work. He needed money. He joined a gang and became a drug dealer. I could not fathom being that desperate for money that I would join a life like that, but he did. And that was kind of what inspired my journey to write this book.

I wanted to write a story about my struggle, and as I started to research more and more for the book, it became less about my struggle and just more about fictional characters in a fictional world of Vancouver.

Debbi: That's really something. I mean, when you see that happen to somebody you know. Do you have any plans to write a sequel or is this a standalone?

Josh: It's funny you say that, because I've had so many people ask me to write a sequel which I never imagined when I wrote the original book, because I thought I'd be lucky to sell a hundred copies of it. So I never expected one person to be like, oh, you should write a sequel, so that really shocks me that people want that. I don't have any plans to write one. I have thought about actually writing a prequel without giving too much away about Second Story Work itself. There is sort of a a story that gets talked about a lot in the book that I've thought about actually writing sort of the origin story for. I don't know if I could because a lot of it would take place in Poland and I don't actually speak Polish, but that is something I've kind of milled about and thought maybe one day I'll do that....

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Karin Slaughter.

Be sure and listen to our talk about her writing and the exciting new Netflix series based on her novel, Pieces of Her.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a PDF transcript of the interview!

Debbi: Hi, everyone. I'm thrilled to have with me as my guest today an award-winning, best-selling crime fiction author who writes two series and several standalone novels. One of her standalones, Pieces of Her, has been adapted into an eight-episode series for Netflix starring Toni Collette. It's my pleasure to welcome my guest, Karin Slaughter. Hi Karin, how are you?

Karin: I'm great. Thank you.

Debbi: Well, I'm really pleased and happy to have you with me here today. It really is a thrill. I have to ask you about your two series. What was it that inspired you to write two series set there in your, I believe, home state of Georgia?

Karin: Yes. I love Georgia, and especially when I started out before the movie industry came here and people realized it was not a horrible backwoods area. I really felt like an ambassador writing about the state and the New South, particularly Atlanta, which is incredibly diverse and a wonderful place to live. So, I just wanted to write what I knew, which was the South, but I think you should also write what you want to know about, and I wanted to know about crime and what it does to people and communities and small towns and large towns, and how it really affects us all in the same way, at the same basic level.

I really felt like an ambassador writing about the state and the New South, particularly Atlanta, which is incredibly diverse and a wonderful place to live. ... I wanted to know about crime and what it does to people and communities and small towns and large towns, and how it really affects us all in the same way, at the same basic level.

Debbi: Yes, it's really interesting to listen to different writers talk about what inspires them to write about crime in particular, but that's a great reason. Pieces of Her is set in a small beach resort in Georgia and starts off with a bang, I have to say, or perhaps a squish. That's all I'll say about that, but just tell us a little bit about the story.

I really think of it as kind of a love story about a mom and a daughter learning who they are, because the squish that happens at the very beginning of the story makes Andy look at her mother in a very different way.

Karin: Well, it's very basic structure. Obviously, it's a thriller, so there's lots of twists and turns and that sort of thing. But I really think of it as kind of a love story about a mom and a daughter learning who they are, because the squish that happens at the very beginning of the story makes Andy look at her mother in a very different way. She's 31 years old. She's kind of floundering. She's saddled with student loan debt. She's not really happy with her life, and she has this idea of her mother that completely changes. I think we all, as we get older, go through that kind of transition where we are like, wow, I didn't know my mom and my dad had a life before I was born and they did things. Maybe they tried drugs or maybe they went disco dancing, or had a secret marriage or whatever. So we realize they are actual people. And of course, because of the squish, Andy realizes very immediately that her mom isn't this small-town speech therapist, that she's really kind of a badass.

Debbi: Talk about an inciting incident! How did the deal with Netflix come about? Was it something your publishers sought out, or was it the other way around?

Karin: No, that's through my agents. I have a wonderful film agent who's really into my stuff, and it started with a phone call with Charlotte Stoudt, who is the show runner/ head writer on the show/ creator, all of those things. And then I had a conversation with Bruna Papandrea who is just amazing. She's done a ton of different shows like Big Little Lies and Nine Perfect Strangers. She's really good at adapting books, particularly women's stories. And so, they got together and just created this really wonderful pitch that Netflix was instantly excited about. And my agent later told me don't ever expect it to happen this easily ever again. This is just all the stars aligning, but I have to say it's been an incredibly pleasant experience. I was prepared for all these horror stories where terrible things would happen, but everybody's been fantastic.

Debbi: I think that's true now. I think the business has changed quite a bit and it's not quite as horrible as people used to make it out to be.

Karin: Yeah. And you know, maybe Me Too has something to do with that, cause people are aware that they can't necessarily get away with being jerks anymore.

Debbi: Exactly!

Karin: But honestly, Netflix is amazing. When the pandemic hit, they completely were on board with moving everything to Australia. It was a really nimble situation and they rose to the occasion.

Debbi: That's really fantastic. Were you involved in a lot of the adaptation in terms of providing input or things like that?

About working with Netflix: "I was asked about character motivation, and why did you write this and what about this setting and that sort of thing, so I felt very included. Of course, casting stuff they told me about and they really kept me updated and in the loop on things."

Karin: Oh yeah. Yes and no. I was asked about character motivation, and why did you write this and what about this setting and that sort of thing, so I felt very included. Of course, casting stuff they told me about and they really kept me updated and in the loop on things. Now I will say, a lot of my book Pieces of Her has Andy just sitting in a car driving and thinking thoughts and that's not riveting screen time, so of course they had to make changes, but the real essence of the characters is there. I've seen a couple of episodes already, and between Toni Collette and Bella Heathcote, they've just done an exceptional job.

Debbi: I can imagine. I mean, I love Toni Collette.

Karin: She's amazing.

Debbi: Yes. It's great. I'm so happy for you. It's funny, I was reading in the intro to your first book about how people would ask you why you write such strong women characters, and then I noticed it was dated 2020 and that you were still getting those questions. I think the real question is why do we keep getting asked questions like this?

Karin: Well, actually, I said to one interviewer, when you ask Lee Child why Jack Reacher is such a strong man, then I'll tell you why I write about strong women. I think part of it is a lot of women's stories were told through the male perspective, and so their way of making their hero really strong was to have the woman need him and for her to be weak. Lee with Reacher is a perfect example of that. Reacher doesn't meet weak women. They are strong; they fight shoulder to shoulder with him and that is so much more sexy to read about, that dynamic as a woman.

I said to one interviewer, when you ask Lee Child why Jack Reacher is such a strong man, then I'll tell you why I write about strong women.

Debbi: Absolutely.

Karin: And so I make sure. Omari Hardwick who in the show plays Laura's ex-husband, he's just an amazing guy. I think one thing that they really captured was the importance of, if you have a strong woman, you need a man who respects that and who can hold his own. So that's what I've always strived to do in my books and I'm really pleased to see they interpreted that on screen.

I think one thing that they really captured was the importance of, if you have a strong woman, you need a man who respects that and who can hold his own.

Debbi: Fantastic. Well, I look forward to seeing this because I have Netflix, so, all right. Let's see, I wanted to ask you about Save The Libraries because I thought that was such a cool thing you did. What inspired you to create Save The Libraries?

Karin: I started it in 2008 at the economic downturn because a lot of municipalities and state governments were looking to cut budgets and they looked in the wrong place, which is libraries. I mean, libraries were more needed during those times than any other time, and we've seen this in the pandemic. Even though the buildings are closed,...