The Crime Cafe

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Sandra Wells.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a link to a PDF copy of the interview.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Before we get started, I want to thank everyone who participated in the DMRF's Virtual Zoo Day on September 25th. They include Sharon Anderson, Santina Caruso, Robert Chamness, Carolyn Chun, Marlena Cook, Scott Davis, Paul Downie, Eirlys Evans, Eric Flint, Rip and Denise Gardner, NM, Kenneth MacClune, Kathy Owens Hankins, Connie Ridgway, Sarah Sensory and Brandy Yassa. Thank you so much for participating and being on my DMRF Dystonia team. I really, really appreciate it. DMV Dystonia, that was the name of the team.

Thank you so much for participating and being on my DMRF [DMV] Dystonia team. I really, really appreciate it.

Debbi: In any event, today we have with us, an author who began writing in March of 2020 and has produced six novels and a children's short story since last year. She lives in Saint Clair, Tennessee, enjoys photography and is searching for the perfect barn picture in the Tennessee and North Carolina areas. Our guest today is Sandra Wells. Hi Sandra. Good to see you.

Sandra: Hi. Thank you for having me on.

Debbi: Sure thing. No problem.

Sandra: The Halloween story is not so much of a kid's Halloween story, it's pretty out there. I wouldn't recommend to read it to kids.

Debbi: Huh. You've written six books in less than two years. In my book, that's pretty impressive and I've always been amazed with people who can crank stuff out like that. How do you stay so consistently productive?

Sandra: I started writing when I was 59, when I turned 59, on a bet with a friend of mine. Her father and mother... her name is Valerie Bloom, were authors and she bet me that I couldn't write a book. So I had to take her up on it and I wrote my first book and I just haven't stopped. Now every two and a half months I could turn one out. I may get tired of it and slack off here, but not so far. I write everything using my cell phone, only my cell phone.

Debbi: I noticed.

Sandra: That worked out good, because no matter where I'm at, if I have a thought then I've got my cell phone with me.

Debbi: That was my thinking. I was going to ask you about that. Do you have any kind of writing schedule, though, that you keep? Are there times that you set aside specifically for writing?

Sandra: No, I don't have any kind of method to my madness. I was talking to some of the writers that... they have to have certain music playing, drinking a half a glass of wine, standing in a mud puddle, or something, with bats hanging around them. There are all kind of off-the-wall stuff I've heard, but no method to my madness. It's just whatever. I think of something and it's like, "Oh, well let's put that down.”

Debbi: Wow.

Sandra: About two and a half, three hours a day I'd say.

Debbi: How do you keep track of the development of your plot?

Sandra: I start the book and, I'm being honest with you, I don't have a clue where it's going and how it develops as it goes.

I start the book and, I'm being honest with you, I don't have a clue where it's going and how it develops as it goes.

Debbi: You amaze me!

Sandra: What I do is; every time I stop writing for the day, I email it to myself so I'll have a backup, because I've always worried about that. So, I've got like 40 emails with the book at different stages.

Sandra: I don't know how it's going to end until about three quarters way through the book. I never know how I'm going to end it.

I don't know how it's going to end until about three quarters way through the book. I never know how I'm going to end it.

Debbi: This is really interesting. I've never attempted to write a novel on a cell phone, but listening to your method, that's extremely interesting. Have you ever considered writing screenplays?

Sandra: People told me that my book, The Clock Struck Midnight should be a screenplay and it's selling really well and people really liked it. It's about a lady that moves to the Ocracoke Island on the Outer Banks, North Carolina, and buys a bar. I don't want to give the whole story away, but the ghost of Blackbeard pops to the bar and he gives her all kind of hell and there's all kinds of stuff going on and everybody really loves the book. They told me that should be one, but I've never really actually sat down and tried to write a screenplay, no. I don't think I'd have a clue how to do it.

Debbi: I have a funny feeling that you would probably take to it if you studied the form, because writing in chunks like that and then sending it to yourself, that seems very screenplay writing to me. Finding those moments, you know what I mean? That you just got to get down.

Sandra: It's just the way I started doing it. And I don't ever print it out or anything like that. I just write the book and then I go back to the beginning and I go through it once more and make any changes I want to, and then send it off to the publishers.

Debbi: Who is your publisher?

Sandra: I have one right now, it's called St. Clair Publishing. He is in McMinnville, Tennessee, and his name is Stan St. Clair and he's a really nice publisher. I started out with a different publisher. That didn't work out. They made a lot of promises and had a lot of plans. They just didn't know how to make them happen.

Debbi: Hmm, I am familiar with that.

Sandra: I bet you are. I self-published my last book. I just had one called One Cent at a Time. Came out a month ago and I self-published that one.

Debbi: Now I have to ask you about that one, because I noticed it was described as a comedy crime novel.

Sandra: I live in a very small town in Tennessee and there's only one stop sign, one store and one little bitty diner, and it's not even incorporated. It's not actually even a town, but it's about the two ladies that run the diner, own the diner. They have a flood, their pipes freeze, and they have a flood which destroys their kitchen and they can't get money any other way. So they decide to kidnap a guy. But when they kidnap him and try to collect the ransom, all kinds of crazy things happen. When they try to go get the ransom and there is... One time they're having the lady that's sending them the ransom, take it up, attach it to a drone and take it up. And she was going to fly like a fourth of a mile to where they were. But a squirrel hunter shot the drone down and got the money.

I live in a very small town in Tennessee and there's only one stop sign, one store and one little bitty diner, and it's not even incorporated. It's not actually even a town, but it's about the two ladies that run the diner, own the diner.

Debbi: This sounds like the plot of a Coen Brothers' movie or something.

Sandra: Every time they try to collect the ransom something weird happens. And it's a lot of twists and at the end of the book it ends up really good.

Debbi: Fascinating. Let's see. Your protagonist, from what I gather, is Kelly G?

Sandra: The first four books I wrote were a crime series, New Hampshire Crime Series. I lived in Barrington, New Hampshire for four years, and I really liked the area. I don't live there anymore, obviously, but I started out writing in what is happening in that area. And it was Kelly G, Detective Kelly G and Detective Carver. And the first four books that I wrote were the New Hampshire Crime Series with them. And then I went totally off the wall and decided to see if I could write a comedy and that's where The Clock Struck Midnight, One Cent at a Time, came in.

The first four books I wrote were a crime series, New Hampshire Crime Series. I lived in Barrington, New Hampshire for four years, and I really liked the area.

Debbi: Ah, okay, so it's a standalone that's part of a series- I'm sorry, what did you say?

Sandra: I said I was just seeing what I could do and what I couldn't.

Debbi: Right. Always test your limits artistically, I say. And that's not part of the series then, it's a standalone?

Sandra: The two books, the two last books are definitely standalone. Both of them. Yes. The first four are a series and the two last books are standalone. And then "Barnaby, The Satisfied Troll", that's a twenty-page short story for adults for Halloween.

Debbi: Wow. And One Cent at a Time, would that be your seventh book?

...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Rea Frey.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a link to a PDF copy of the interview.

Debbi: Hi, everyone. My guest today is the author of several novels, as well as the CEO and founder of Writeway, where basically you get to learn about the publishing industry before you get into this crazy business. Let's see. She lives in Nashville with her husband, daughter, and three wild animals. We'll have to talk about the wild animals too. I'm pleased introduce my guest, Rea Frey. Hi, Rea.

Rea: Hello.

Debbi: It's so good to have you here.

Rea: It's so nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

Debbi: Sure thing. I got to say, I love your website so much. It's so clever and pretty. And I like the photo on the homepage with you holding those books that are dripping paint or something.

Rea: Yeah.

Debbi: I mean, it seems to be a metaphor of some kind.

Rea: Yes, we could say it's a metaphor for so many different things, but yeah, it was a fun site to put together.

Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. It's great. It's wonderful. I like it. And I like the idea of your show, your podcast, but we'll get into that in a second.

Debbi: Tell us first about your books. How would you describe your writing? Is it domestic suspense, thriller?

Rea: Yeah. It's domestic suspense, which, in all honesty, when my debut novel came out, Not Her Daughter, and they told me I was in the domestic suspense genre, I was like, "What is that? What is domestic suspense?" I wasn't aiming to write in a genre, but I always like to say I write things that basically scare the shit out of parents. I love to kind of take that worst case scenario, because I'm a parent, and really play out those fears, whether it's kidnapping, a guardian dies, someone disappears. I love playing with that and playing with morality a little bit. So I'm definitely more relationship-based instead of, you know, straight thrillers, but I technically do fall in that domestic suspense category.

I wasn't aiming to write in a genre, but I always like to say I write things that basically scare the shit out of parents. I love to kind of take that worst case scenario, because I'm a parent, and really play out those fears, whether it's kidnapping, a guardian dies, someone disappears. I love playing with that and playing with morality a little bit.

Debbi: Okay. Well, you know, so people understand what it is you write, it's a convenient label, right?

Rea: Yep. It is a convenient label, yes.

Debbi: Are all your books standalones?

Rea: Yes, they are. You know, my first one, again, my debut, Not Her Daughter, was supposed to be a sequel, and one publisher wanted the standalone, which is who I went with, St. Martin's Press, because I wanted the clout of the "Big Five" behind me, and then the other publisher was more of kind of a niche publisher. They were great, but they wanted me to have the sequel. They wanted me to be a lead title, they wanted to do the hardback book. And I was very romanced by going with the big boys.

Rea: So I did that. And as a result, yeah, I got a four-book deal and they were all standalones. And after that first book, I was like, "Well, I don't know what I'm going to write." This debut just fell out. I mean, I wrote it so fast. And every subsequent book, I was like, "Okay, now what, now what, now what?"

Rea: So it was an interesting experience. It didn't quite flow like the first book, but it was all so fun and such a learning experience, that's for sure.

Debbi: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. So have you ever even considered writing a series?

Rea: You know, that's a great question. I mean, yes. With Not Her Daughter, I actually went ahead and kind of worked on a sequel because that book really felt unfinished to me. But besides that, I feel like when I am done with a book, I'm very much like a screenwriter, when I'm done, I'm like, "Great. Onto the next project." I never want to think about the book again. I never even want to look at it again. So I think to stay with those characters book after book would be a challenge for me personally.

Debbi: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And just so you know, I do screenwriting, and screenwriting is a whole lot of rewriting.

Rea: Yes.

Debbi: A whole lot of [crosstalk 00:05:01].

Rea: A whole lot of rewriting, but I love, when you are done, if you're ever really done, you're not responsible, like with a book, you know, having the book launch and doing the tour and doing all of these things. It's like boom, it can be out, you can sell it and move on with your life. And I love that. That's so attractive to me.

Debbi: It does have that, although it is hard to make sales.

Rea: Yes.

Debbi: It is as hard to make sales in screenwriting as it is ... Even harder actually.

Rea: I believe it.

Debbi: It's a level of commitment that you really have to be serious about.

Rea: Yes.

Debbi: Let's see. Tell us about your latest book then. What is your latest book about?

Rea: Yeah, so my upcoming book, it doesn't come out until February actually, and it's called Secrets of Our House. And it's really about this woman, Desi, who's kind of an affluent business owner, and she decides to bring her family to this summer mountain home that she's built from scratch, and it's called The Black House.

Rea: And when she does this, when they all come for the summer, everything starts to unravel. Her husband might want a divorce; her daughter, who's on the precipice of going to college, she falls in love for the first time, decides she doesn't want to go to college; her irresponsible brother shows up unannounced; and then her past literally comes knocking, which threatens to reveal the biggest, most damaging secret of all.

Rea: So this book, more than any of my other books, is a little bit more family saga, I would say, versus straight up suspense. It's a little bit of a departure from the previous books that were very more suspense-based. So it has a little bit of a different feel than my previous books.

Debbi: Interesting.

Rea: Yeah.

Debbi: So you're able to get past that four book block, so to speak, and you wrote this next one.

Rea: Well, so this one is my fourth one and then-

Debbi: Oh, it is the fourth one. Okay.

Rea: Yeah, it is the fourth one. And then, yeah, I'm parting ways with my publisher, in all transparency, and want to move on. And so, yeah, I was like, "God, what do I do next? I can do anything that I want to do."

Rea: So I actually just got done yesterday with the first draft of another book called The Other Year that I'm really excited about. I mean, it's got a lot of work to be done on it, but it feels like a different book for me, and I'm excited to see where it lands.

Debbi: Fantastic. That's good. Just keep at it.

Rea: Oh, always.

Debbi: Keep writing and keep creating. I don't have to tell you that because you're a writer and you're succeeding.

Rea: Well, I appreciate you saying that, but I think it's important for people to know; I feel like, you know, when people see other people publish, aspiring writers see authors out there and kind of assume, if you're published, everything's wonderful, everything's dandy. And I have to say, because I run a business for writers, because I run a podcast that really demystifies the publishing industry and tells the truth, every book that I have put out and my experience in the publishing industry, I have lost my joy of writing with every single book.

Rea: It has just really changed. And that's something I thought could never dampen at all. I always thought I'd have that writerly spirit. And since it's become a business for me, and since my books have become products to sell, market and promote, the love and the creativity that I now don't have as much time for, that's really shifted.

Rea: So it was really special for this next book to be out of contract, to have no deadline, to not be paid for it upfront, and to realize, "Oh, I can play. I can figure out what I want to do."

Rea: So that's been a really interesting pause in my career, and just kind of analyzing, "What do I really want? Do I really enjoy this anymore? What comes next?" And I think it's important to ask those questions as you go along, because you're allowed to change your mind.

So it was really special for this next book to be out of contrac

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Mark Edward Langley.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Please join my fundraising team, DMV Dystonia, to raise funds for research on this rare movement disorder. Remember to pick that team when signing up!

The full link is here: https://bit.ly/DMVDystonia

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a link to a PDF copy of the interview.

Debbi: Hi, everyone. Our guest today began his love of reading as an employee with B. Dalton Booksellers. Remember them? I do, fondly. He's the author of the Arthur Nakai Mystery Series which takes place in New Mexico, the only part of the Southwest I still haven't really seen to my satisfaction. I want to go back someday.

Debbi: His second novel, Death Waits in the Dark, was a finalist in the American Book Fest Awards 2020 and won the Feathered Quill Award in 2021. His latest novel is When Silence Screams.

Debbi: I'm pleased to have with me, author Mark Edward Langley.

Debbi: Hi, Mark. It's great to see you here.

Mark: Hi, good to be here.

Debbi: I'm glad you're here. Thank you.

Mark: Happy to be here.

Debbi: Excellent. Good. First of all, I've got to say, I used to love B. Dalton Booksellers. What did you do there?

Mark: Oh, Lord. You're going back to 1980, and my parents, my family, moved down there, but my dad got transferred, and it was just close by. I... "Well, I'll get a job there," and I ended up, for the time I was there, started out in the backroom, receiving the books, getting them all labeled and stickered and stuff, and putting them out. And then, got to be on the register and that kind of stuff. So, ended up stocking and work and that. And I loved being down there because it was right down the street from the Windmill Dinner Theater, and a lot of actors came through doing plays there, and a few of them actually stopped in the store to buy some stuff.

Debbi: Excellent.

Mark: I loved it. I loved it. But I got instilled in reading then. I was watching the Spenser for Hire series on television. And one of the ladies I worked with said, "If you love the show, you should read the books." So I started reading the books and was hooked from thereon.

Debbi: Isn't it interesting how things often start with television? I know that my love of mystery started with watching Honey West way back in the day.

Mark: Oh, boy.

Debbi: Now I'm going back.

I was watching the Spenser for Hire series on television. And one of the ladies I worked with said, "If you love the show, you should read the books."

Mark: Yeah. Oh, boy, yeah. But yeah, it's just funny how things happen like that. And then, I got into reading Robert Parker and then Mickey Spillane and John D. MacDonald, and just went from there, and I just started loving whatever I could get my hands on.

Debbi: All great stuff. Well, tell us about Arthur Nakai. He's an interesting character, an

ex-marine, a former member of the Special Ice Unit, and a Native American. Correct?

Mark: Exactly. Yes.

I got into reading Robert Parker and then Mickey Spillane and John D. MacDonald, and just went from there, and I just started loving whatever I could get my hands on.

Debbi: How did you come up with this character? Not to mention his wife, who's a news reporter. And I thought that was interesting. Please tell us more.

Mark: Oh, sure. I mean, I started thinking about developing... First, I took a two-week vacation out there and I traveled the route that's in the book. So, whatever I saw along that way, I dictated into a tape recorder and came back and transposed it all down. Then started developing characters and backstories for the characters. And I stumbled across... I wanted to be different in a lot of ways than other writers that are out there writing about that, and not as far as the police goes or whatever it may be but I developed Arthur Nakai based on my love for R. Carlos Nakai, the Native American flute player. And at the time, one of my friends where I worked a million years ago, it seems like now, whose first name was Arthur. So, I liked the way that rang together. So, I used that, developed a character with that.

First, I took a two-week vacation out there and I traveled the route that's in the book. So, whatever I saw along that way, I dictated into a tape recorder and came back and transposed it all down. Then started developing characters and backstories for the characters.

Mark: As far as his wife, Sharon, goes, I actually was texting back and forth in the mornings with one of the local reporters on the NBC Station here in Chicago, and I wanted to ask her some questions about what do you give up to have this life you have? I wanted to make her real and things that happen in their life, once you have that job, a lot of things you don't get to do. You miss a lot of birthdays, anniversaries, and you're always on the air doing something. So, she helped out a lot with that. And I developed that character and the other ones like Jake Bilagody, which is loosely based on my grandfather, a large barrel-chested man, with that. So, I kind of start molding these people into what I have now.

Debbi: I think it's really interesting the way your travels inform your fiction writing.

I actually was texting back and forth in the mornings with one of the local reporters on the NBC Station here in Chicago, and I wanted to ask her some questions about what do you give up to have this life you have? I wanted to make her real and things that happen in their life, once you have that job, a lot of things you don't get to do.

Mark: Oh, yeah. That was the whole plan to do that because you can't just look online and find pictures and things, and do things, and do searches. You have to be there. And that's what I found out a long time ago. I told Anne Hillerman once that her father helped me understand the importance of descriptive sentencing, to set surrounding and set place.

Mark: I think Robert Parker helped me develop the dialogue, conversations in books. So. I use those along with that. I had to be there. You have to smell it. You have to see it. You have to taste it. You have to feel the heat, feel the cold, in order to convey that to the reader in the book. And a lot of people who have read my books feel like they're right there in the situation, in the area. I love that.

Debbi: That's the effect you want. Absolutely.

Mark: Yeah.

You have to feel the heat, feel the cold, in order to convey that to the reader in the book. And a lot of people who have read my books feel like they're right there in the situation, in the area. I love that.

Debbi: And I do have to say that I love the Southwest. It's beautiful. The area is gorgeous. It's such a great place to set a mystery in more ways than one.

Mark: Oh, yeah. I fell in love with that when I was in my preteens, and it just stuck with me when I went back for this Path of the Dead book to take the tour out there with that. Once I got into the area and was driving through the red landscape up through Utah's, I was home. I mean, I just... That's the way I feel about it. I would be no more worse for wear living out there. And that's my plan if things go as well as I hope they will, to be able to take my wife and move out there so I'm closer to it. If I have areas in the book I need to go to, hop in the truck and go there, and get the firsthand information of that. Now I can be able to talk to people out there. I talked to several Navajo people my last trip out there and got their take on a lot of things. And it's good to be able to have that afforded you right there, to just pick up and go, be where it needs to be, meet the people and talk to them, and I just get a wealth of information.

Debbi: Yes, absolutely. I was fascinated by the way you did research on the Navajo people while you were there. It seems that your research, in a way, it really started as a happy accident, kind of like you met people, they told you things, and you sort of took it from there. Is that about right?

Once I got into the area and was driving through the red landscape up through Utah's, I was home. I mean, I just... That's the way I feel about it.

Mark: Exactly. The funny thing was that what began that whole journey of meeting people was, I was creating a situation in the book, in Path of the Dead. I mean, Death Waits in the Dark. Sorry....

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Samantha Downing.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Please join my fundraising team, DMV Dystonia, to raise funds for research on this rare movement disorder. Remember to pick that team when signing up!

The full link is here: https://bit.ly/DMVDystonia

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a link to a PDF copy of the interview.

Debbi: Hi, everyone. Our guest today recently released her third novel. It's called FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, and has been optioned by a production company to be adapted into, I suppose, an HBO Max series. We'll have to talk about that to the extent it can be talked about. Her first novel, MY LOVELY WIFE, has been nominated for multiple awards, and is also under option to be adapted for the screen. She lives and works in New Orleans, a place that I've always wanted to visit, but have not gotten around to yet. I am pleased to have with me Samantha Downing. Hi Sam, how are you doing today?

Samantha: I'm good. Thank you for having me.

Debbi: Well, thank you for being here. I really, really appreciate it. The setting of your latest book reminds me of an interview I just did with another author who was an educator. And her comment to me was that she was surprised that more authors didn't set their books in schools because they're like microcosms of society. And my thought was it's like a small town. What are your thoughts on that?

Samantha: Absolutely. I think there's a... In this book, in FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, there's a number of social structures that exist within the school. There is the structure between the teachers themselves. This is a private school where the kids are all wealthy. The parents pay the bills. And some of the teachers are wealthy, some of them are not. And there is a structure between the parents and the teachers. The parents pay the bills and are the donors to the school, so they think they can tell the teachers what to do. And then there are the students who drive better cars than the teachers. So, the money and the wealth and the entitlement has a lot to do with the story itself. The protagonist, or one of the main characters, is Teddy Crutcher, who is not wealthy and lives on a teacher's salary, and that is something that really drives him and his actions in the book.

In this book, in FOR YOUR OWN GOOD, there's a number of social structures that exist within the school.

Debbi: I was going to say, you start off with a very interesting scene where Crutcher seems like maybe a guy you can empathize with, and then things get very, very dark quickly.

Samantha: Yes. I've actually had teachers say that they completely understand where Teddy is coming from. They just don't necessarily agree with his actions. So, he definitely is someone... He's an underdog, and he sees himself as an underdog, and it is important to his psyche and his belief system. He has his own criteria for grading students, and it has nothing to do with merit whatsoever. He very much realizes the power he has as a teacher to affect these students' lives, and he uses it, which is a very scary thought that a teacher would do that.

I've actually had teachers say that they completely understand where Teddy is coming from. They just don't necessarily agree with his actions. So, he definitely is someone... He's an underdog,

Debbi: Yes. Yes, very scary. And I can't help but see parallels to things that go on today, not just in schools, but in society.

Samantha: Yes. I think when people realize the power that they have and they use it, then you have to look at the type of person that's doing it. In this case, Teddy is essentially a psychopath. And the thing about psychopaths is you don't know they are until they're arrested or they do something horrible. And not all psychopaths are violent. So, they're out there. They're affecting things. And if you have one that's a teacher, they are affecting students in ways we can only imagine. It was one of the things I wanted to explore in this book is what happens when you have someone who's a psychopath as a teacher.

In this case, Teddy is essentially a psychopath. And the thing about psychopaths is you don't know they are until they're arrested or they do something horrible. And not all psychopaths are violent. So, they're out there. They're affecting things.

Debbi: Yeah. I mean, people in positions of authority over young people, well, they have so much power, and young people are relatively powerless.

Samantha: Yes. And in a lot of the books that are set in schools, there's a whole genre called dark academia. A lot of what gets talked about is teachers who are sexual predators. And of course, that's what people are always on the lookout for. Because if you are a sexual predator of young people, becoming a teacher is a great job option for you because it puts you right where you want to be. I did not want to do anything like that. I really wanted to explore a different aspect, a different kind of bad teacher, and Teddy was definitely that.

Debbi: Was there something in particular that inspired you to write this book?

Samantha: Not something in particular. Most of my books, what I try to do is put it in a setting that is familiar to people. Because I know the book is going to get crazy and go out there with things that you probably have not seen before and hopefully have not experienced. So, the setting sort of grounds people. And a high school, we've all been through high school and possibly have kids in high school. So, high school is a shared experience for everyone regardless of whether it was a private school or not. So, that was really my intention. I wanted to write, and I wanted to write specifically about a teacher. Because we do try to honor our teachers and try to thank them for what they do, but there's always a bad apple. Right? So, that's the one I wanted to write about.

Most of my books, what I try to do is put it in a setting that is familiar to people. Because I know the book is going to get crazy and go out there with things that you probably have not seen before and hopefully have not experienced. So, the setting sort of grounds people.

Debbi: That's it. That's true. I noticed in an interview that you did that you described the high school experience in two words, pressure and confusion.

Samantha: Yes.

Debbi: Do you think those things have gotten worse over time?

Samantha: I don't know if they've gotten worse. I think it's just changed a bit now that we have the internet and now that kids all have smartphones. I think the method of delivery is a little bit different, and even the way you do your work is different, doing it on a computer. But I think the same pressures are there. In high school years, how I see it is that you are learning cognitively for the first time how to deal with authority figures, and how you are expected to be different people in front of different figures. So, a teacher may want you to be one way, a parent may want you to be another, a coach may want you to be another.

In high school years, how I see it is that you are learning cognitively for the first time how to deal with authority figures, and how you are expected to be different people in front of different figures. So, a teacher may want you to be one way, a parent may want you to be another, a coach may want you to be another.

Samantha: And you learn to adapt, and you start forming all these personalities of who you need to be in front of which person, which is what we do as adults. We're completely different people at work in front of our boss than we are at home with our family. That's just how people are. You don't show everything to everybody. And teenagers are learning this, and they're developing it in a more conscious way. As kids, they do it... small kids, they do it unconsciously, but as teenagers, they start to develop it consciously. And Zach is the main student in this book. We see things from his point of view, as well as others. And that's all he's doing. He's navigating amid all the adults in his life. He's navigating all the pressures.

We're completely different people at work in front of our boss than we are at home with our family. That's just how people are. You don't show everything to everybody. And teenagers are learning this, and they're developing it in a more conscious way.

Debbi: Who is the protagonist in this book?

...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Saralyn Richard.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I'm your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I'll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You'll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Please join my fundraising team, DMV Dystonia, to raise funds for research on this rare movement disorder. Remember to pick that team when signing up!

The full link is here: https://bit.ly/DMVDystonia

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here's a link to a PDF copy of the interview.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Today, making her second visit to the show, is the author of the Detective Oliver Parrott mysteries and other books that we'll be discussing. She's a former educator who's written for children and adults. It's my pleasure to have with me, Saralyn Richard. Hi Saralyn, I'm really happy to see you again.

Saralyn: Thank you, Debbi. And thanks for having me on your show.

Debbi: Sure thing. And by the way, as Fernando would say, you look marvelous darling. You do indeed. I am almost finished with your second Oliver Parrott book. Will you be writing more of those?

Saralyn: I am currently writing the third Oliver Parrott book.

Debbi: Excellent.

Saralyn: Yes, he is still whispering in my ear. So as long as he continues to do that, I'll be recording what he's telling me.

Debbi: Can you give us a hint as to what the book is about?

Saralyn: Well, it's also set in Brandywine Valley and the working title for the book is INHERITANCE BLUES and it has to do with a meth lab and a Ponzi scheme and a really famous old lady whose children have interest in what they're going to inherit from her. And I think it's going to all come together in a really interesting book.

Debbi: Sounds interesting.

Saralyn: So, I've just started with it. It's just in the very beginning stages. I think I've written two chapters.

Debbi: Sounds fascinating.

Saralyn: Thanks.

Debbi: In the latest novel, I noticed that Oliver's wife, Tonya, makes an appearance and she has served with the military and come back from deployment and has PTSD. Did you do a lot of research on that topic?

Saralyn: Yes, I did. And Tonya was an important character in the first book as well, but she was still doing her tour of duty in Afghanistan. So she couldn't be as big of a part of the picture as she was in A PALETTE FOR LOVE AND MURDER. There, she's really right up there with the main characters and her PTSD takes front and center spot and becomes a big part of the plot. So I don't know how far along you are, but it's super relevant to what Parrott is investigating.

Debbi: I'm pretty far along. So I think I know what you're saying.

Saralyn: Okay.

Debbi: She's a very interesting character and I liked the way you handled that issue. I do hope you write ... yeah. I was hopeful that you would write a third one because if the first book was great for gourmands, the second one made me want to take up art.

Saralyn: Well, the Brandywine Valley, which is located outside of Philadelphia in Pennsylvania, is just full of subjects to write about. And the first book really involved the horse community there, and they're avid horseman who ride, they show, they do fox hunting, they do lots and lots of horse activities and it's a horse community. And then there's the art community. And you may have heard of Andrew Wyeth and his family. The Wyeths are a big part of the art community in Brandywine Valley. There's a museum there called the Brandywine River Museum of Fine Arts. And it features a lot of the artists that live there, but a lot of the Wyeths are featured there.

So there's a big art community in Brandywine Valley. The light is beautiful, the country is beautiful. It's a great place to paint, especially landscapes. And so I wanted the second book, A PALETTE FOR LOVE AND MURDER to involve that art community.

Saralyn: So there's a big art community in Brandywine Valley. The light is beautiful, the country is beautiful. It's a great place to paint, especially landscapes. And so I wanted the second book, A PALETTE FOR LOVE AND MURDER to involve that art community. And now the third book, as I told you is going to be something different. So I'm trying to paint a picture of this community that is just absolutely exquisite. It's peaceful, it's gorgeous, it's wholesome and it's the last place you would expect a murder to take place. So I'm really fascinated with that as a setting. And I have to say that the people who live there and work there have opened up their minds and their hearts to me, and they have shared a lot with me and they've really made me feel like I'm a member of the community. So I do a lot of research, I've made a lot of friends there and it's just the greatest place to write about.

And I have to say that the people who live there and work there have opened up their minds and their hearts to me, and they have shared a lot with me and they've really made me feel like I'm a member of the community.

Debbi: Wow, that's really interesting because you're located in Texas. Am I right?

Saralyn: That's right.

Debbi: So it's fascinating your interest in this particular community and the way they've opened up to you. You must've done quite a bit of research for that.

Saralyn: Well, I have a family member that lives there and so I have visited there many times and that's really how things got started. I went to a party like the party in MURDER IN THE ONE PERCENT. It was a really fancy, elegant, fabulous party. And that's when I got the first idea that this would be a great setting for a murder mystery, because you would just not expect a murder to take place in a setting like this. And since that time, I've met people. I talk about The Hunt Magazine, in both of the books, I have mentioned The Hunt Magazine and that is the big local magazine for the area and the people who work for that magazine, the staff and all of the editors and so on have invited me to some of their events, they have shared their magazine with me and I get a lot of research from their magazines too. So it's just really wonderful.

Debbi: It is. That's fantastic. Let's see. What about your latest book? Your latest book is called A MURDER OF PRINCIPAL. What is this book about?

Saralyn: Well, that's a standalone mystery and it takes place in a large urban high school. And it starts off when a new principal has been hired from the outside to bring in change. And nobody, no institutions like change, but schools are especially notorious for resisting change. So this maverick principal comes in and he's got all these grand ideas about student-centered change and he meets with resistance from every corner. So there are teachers, there are students, there are faculty association personnel, there are gangs in the area, there's sexual harassment issues, there's grievances against him, and he has to face all of these things and also a murder.

Debbi: It's interesting because it's such a different setting than the Brandywine Valley mysteries. And you tackle some tough issues in a rather fearless way, I think.

A MURDER OF PRINCIPAL is my most personal book that I've written so far, because I spent a couple of decades in urban high schools and I had to do the least amount of research for that book because I lived all of those issues and I always had it in my mind to write about them in a way that would be fictional ...

Saralyn: Well, really, A MURDER OF PRINCIPAL is my most personal book that I've written so far, because I spent a couple of decades in urban high schools and I had to do the least amount of research for that book because I lived all of those issues and I always had it in my mind to write about them in a way that would be fictional, that would be fun, that would be quirky, there would be quirky characters, but underneath it all are some very real social issues that a school must go through, must deal with. And a school is just a microcosm of society at large. So all of the problems and jealousies and competitions and social problems, those are all in the school, too. And there's a lot of drama that takes place in school every single day. I'm a little surprised that more people don't set their books in schools because the school is just a rich environment for stories. As I like to say, there are a million stories beyond the flagpole. So I tried to tap into those in A MURDER OF PRINCIPAL.

Debbi: Yes. That's absolutely true what you're saying about schools. I've seen it in books set in universities, too. Colleges, universities,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime fiction writer Thomas O'Callaghan.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Please join my fundraising team, DMV Dystonia, to raise funds for research on this rare movement disorder. Remember to pick that team when signing up! :)

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I'm a Blubrry affiliate, but that's not the only reason I'm telling you this. I've been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it's one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you're in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it's a company that I can get behind 100% and say, "You should try this." Try Blubrry. It doesn't require a long-term contract, and it's just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn't that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here's a downloadable copy of the interview.

Debbi: Hi, again, everyone. Today, I have as my guest, the author of a series of thrillers featuring a New York City detective, Lt. John Driscoll. His work has been translated for publication in at least six countries outside the US. He's also a native New Yorker, so that's a plus because so am I. I'm pleased to have with me today, Thomas O'Callaghan. Hi, Thomas.

Thomas: Hello, Debbi.

Debbi: I'm so glad you're here today.

Thomas: Yeah, nice to be here. Very nice to be here.

Debbi: Awesome. I love your bookshelf there in the background. It's so neat and beautiful.

Thomas: Thank you very much.

Debbi: I wish my shelves were so beautiful.

Thomas: Thank you.

Debbi: What prompted you to write this series?

Thomas: Interesting question. I never thought of writing. In college, I studied history and planned on perhaps going to law school. After that, I began working for an insurance company, Allstate Insurance Company, and I had a pretty good career with them, sales agent. Everything was going well and I figured I'd retire as a sales agent, only I didn't think I'd retire at the age of 49. They changed the way they paid us, and if I wanted to stay on, it meant I was no longer an employee, but I was a franchise agent and I had to pay for secretarial help and other support staff and whatnot. The option was to sell my book of business and leave or retire or stay on as a franchise, so I sold my book of business, and that carried me for about three years.

Thomas: But at age 49, I needed something to do. I spoke to a friend of mine who had a similar circumstance. She asked me what did I like to do. If you're going to have a second career, it might be something you might like doing. I said, "Well, I like to take photographs." This was before the advent of the old iPhone. I had an old 35-millimeter camera and I went out and I snapped some pictures. I lived near Prospect Park in Brooklyn at the time and I snapped some pictures and I enjoyed it.

Thomas: The enthusiasm waned after about a month and I said to her, I said, "Well, it's not a career choice." She said, "Well, what else do you like to do?" I said, "Well, to be honest with you, I always thought I'd be an actor." I wanted to be a thespian when I was in high school and in college and I performed in theater groups and I did some off-Broadway shows. I said, "That's what I'd like to do," so she recommended I go down and have some training because it had been a while and I went to HB Studios down in Manhattan and that was fun, two months working with a group of other actors and some professional trainers.

Thomas: I enjoyed it very much, but again, it waned. I then went back to my faithful friend and said, "Well, where to now?" and she said, "Well, what else do you like to do in your spare time?" I said, "Well, I like to read," and she said, "Well, what do you read?" I said, "Well, I like to read murder mysteries, police procedurals, thrillers," and she said, "Well, why don't you write one?" I said, "Write one?" I wouldn't know how to write one," and she said, "Well, you've done a lot of reading. You probably picked up the knack somewhere. You maybe developed a voice. Why don't you try to write? I'll tell you what, I'll take a look at it."

Thomas: The last thing you want to hear when you're a new writer is that someone's going to actually see it. I learned something along the way that it's important to write like no one's ever going to read it because you don't need that critic that's inside your head as you type that says, "This isn't good. Someone's going to take issue with it," or, "Wow. What would my mom say?" that kind of stuff, so I just threw caution to the wind and I began to write like no one was ever going to read it, only this close friend.

The last thing you want to hear when you're a new writer is that someone's going to actually see it. I learned something along the way that it's important to write like no one's ever going to read it because you don't need that critic that's inside your head as you type that says, "This isn't good. Someone's going to take issue with it," or, "Wow. What would my mom say?"

Thomas: I wrote an opening chapter of a book involving a crazed serial killer and the introduction of a police team that would be called in to capture this individual and she read it and she said, "I liked it. What's your next chapter about?" and I said, "Well, I hadn't planned on that." She said, "Well, write another chapter," and after writing about eight chapters, all typed out, and after her reviewing, she says, "I think you've got something here and I suggest you see a friend of mine who is a psychotherapist, but he also teaches the art of writing, or he taught the art of writing years ago in Paris." I said, "Okay."

Thomas: I set up appointments with this individual, a fellow by the name of Stephane Ohayon, who still is a psychotherapist in Manhattan. Between his patients, he would see me as a budding novelist and I would bring him a chapter and we would edit it. He would help me as a writing coach push it and get it better and better and better and that continued for an appreciable amount of time until I finished what would be eventually book one in this trilogy. Then we went onto book two. That was it. It was an introduction to get into something I enjoyed doing and I was hooked once I started writing and that's where I went after 20 years of sales.

Debbi: Wow. You were very fortunate to have a personal mentor helping you through the process of that first book.

Thomas: Absolutely, yes. Yeah, yeah. She pushed me and she's been a friend for years and she did some writing on her own. I felt comfortable. Then when I was introduced to Stephane, who as a psychotherapist understands the mindset of crazy people, it was kind of perfect because I was writing about serial killers and I was getting into their heads and whatnot, so it really was a wise decision for a second career, yeah.

Debbi: Well, that's a fantastic source of information, a psychotherapist who knows about writing can give you that insight.

Thomas: Yes, yeah.

Debbi: That's fantastic.

Thomas: Yeah. What are the odds?

Debbi: I was going to ask you about the research that you do, but it sounds as if some of your research was connected with your writing coaching, in a sense.

Thomas: Yes, in that end of it, yes, the writing coach would help me with the mindset of what a crazed killer was thinking and what a crazed killer would be doing. In terms of police procedural, I read all of Ed McBain's 87th Precinct novels. I thought Steve Carella was going to stop by for dinner. I mean, I got, I got to know him so well, him and his team. That gave me an outline for a police procedural format. Although he wrote back in the '50s and things have changed and there's a lot of new electronics that are used and cross-references with the FBI, but I had the basics. Then I reached out to a retired homicide commander who would read what I wrote and comment on it and say, "Well, you need to do this and you need to do that and you need to involve the FBI who are ViCAP." ViCAP, Violent... I forget the... Violent Crime... ViCAP? Boy, I'm stuck. I shouldn't even use the word.

Debbi: I know what you're talking about. I've heard of it.

Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's the source that the FBI keeps track of violent criminals, so he led me in the right direction, so I had my writing coach helping with helping me with the crazed killer and I had a retired homicide commander helping me with the police procedural. The rest was the influence of so many years of reading Michael Connelly and Jeffery Deaver and all others, right, and Thomas Harris and Vincent Bugliosi who with another writer, he put together HELTER SKELTER.

Thomas: I think if I thought back to what was the one book that I ever read in my life that pulled me into writing, it was HELTER SKELTER. Although it was true crime, the attention to detail that these two writers made when they wrote this book... The adage is you pick a book up and you can't put it down. I couldn't, this thing I read probably back in the late '70s. I was hooked. I read this thing and it fascinated me. Over the years, I was influenced by writing like that and then the style of Jeffery Deaver, Dean Koontz, Thomas Harris, Michael Connelly. I guess it's safe to say I developed a voice of my own based on their voices and whatnot. That's how it worked. You mentioned research before.

Debbi: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Thomas: It's so important. I spent a lot of time doing research. If you get it wrong,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime fiction writer Clay Stafford.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first I'd like to put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I'm a Bluburry podcasting affiliate, but that's not the only reason I'm telling you about this. I've been using Blubrry podcasting as my host for the podcast for years and it's one of the best decisions I've ever made. They provide great service. You can run your podcast from your website. They provide fantastic distribution at a reasonable price. That's why it's a company I can get behind one hundred percent and say, "You should try this."

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. It doesn't require a long-term contract. It's just a great company, and they provide great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I've included an affiliate link on this blog.

Unfortunately, our scheduled guest had to cancel. However, I was lucky enough to have someone else waiting in the wings. :)

FYI, this post includes an affiliate link or two.

Debbi: Hi, everyone. Today's guest is uniquely accomplished, to say the least. He is, and I quote from his bio, "an author, screenwriter, playwright, producer, director, actor, showrunner, publisher, songwriter/composer, CEO, educator, speaker, and needless to say, entrepreneur." He is also founder, CEO, and president of the Killer Nashville Conference for writers. He's done numerous things we can discuss, actually. And it's my great pleasure to introduce Clay Stafford. Hi Clay. I'm so glad you're here today.

Clay: Well, hey, Debbi. And all of that only says that I am very old. That's what it comes down to. Right?

Debbi: But you have done so much with that time.

Clay: Well, thanks. Thanks. You know I started as a kid actor. Did you know that?

Debbi: I was going to ask how you got started. How did you get started?

Clay: Yeah. I started actually working professionally when I was 10, and so have been in the business ever since then. Worked and then formed my first production company when I was 16 years old, and started doing commercials for banks and other things. And so everything kind of went from there.

Debbi: Wow, that's really impressive. What led you to a life of literary crime?

Clay: First of all, I love all literature. I'm incredibly eclectic. I love the classics. I love ... The only thing I say that really just pushes me too far is romance when we get into the shower scenes, and everybody always hears me talking about the shower scene. Can't stand the shower scenes, but I can skip that. Romantic suspense, I love. So I just love everything, and when we founded ... I guess we're going to talk a little bit about Killer Nashville, the conference. Right?

First of all, I love all literature. I'm incredibly eclectic. I love the classics.

Debbi: For sure.

Clay: When I founded Killer Nashville, it was, as you can see, based on stories that contained elements of mystery, thriller, suspense. And to me, I think no matter if you're writing literary, if you're writing straight crime noir, if you're writing science fiction, those elements actually are propelling the story forward and keep the reader's interest. I know we have the genre of mystery and crime, but you can do that in multiple--historical, sci-fi, fantasy--ways, and still impose the same elements on there of the storytelling.

I think no matter if you're writing literary, if you're writing straight crime noir, if you're writing science fiction, those elements actually are propelling the story forward and keep the reader's interest.

Clay: So as long as it's got that, which to me tells me that the story's moving forward, I'm all in. So it doesn't really matter about the genre itself. So how did I get involved with crime? Well, that's just the Michael Jackson song, just another side of me. So that's just part of one of the techniques where the mystery, thriller, suspense come in. And I just happen to love the genre.

Debbi: You're so right about all those aspects being in fiction, no matter what genre or if it's genre. I think that's so true.

Clay: And I am one of those. I'm of the belief that genre pretty much is where we classify things in a bookstore. And for writers, I think really the focus should be on telling the story. And you're going to get a lot of opposing advice on this. But from a reader and someone's who's done this writers' conference and been with writers my whole life, and been in writing my whole life, for me, I think the story is probably the most important, and then let's put it in the category it needs to go to later on. And I know readers have a personal preference, so you need those break ups of theme. But from a writer's perspective, I think concentrating on the great story is the important thing, not necessarily trying to get it to fit into a certain bottle.

I'm of the belief that genre pretty much is where we classify things in a bookstore. And for writers, I think really the focus should be on telling the story.

Debbi: I couldn't agree with you more. How does one go about starting a conference?

And I know readers have a personal preference, so you need those break ups of theme. But from a writer's perspective, I think concentrating on the great story is the important thing, not necessarily trying to get it to fit into a certain bottle.

Clay: Well, I have done several. Leading up to this point, I'd dropped out of college, and then I went back. So I mean, the story's good. I went back and then I got my terminal degree and everything because I found out no matter how much experience, you know I worked in the studio system and everything, but however much experience that you have, academic likes to see a piece of paper that says that you're qualified to teach. So I ended up going back to school and getting an MFA and teaching at several universities, including the University of Miami and some stuff at the University of Tennessee. And we're based in Franklin, Tennessee now, so this has been my home for the past 27 years.

Clay: And so I have a long history in education. I started a small writers' conference here in Williamson County, which was for more local authors. But about that time, the internet came on. And you and I talked before we started recording how technology is very frustrating to me, but I'm also the first one that goes, "Oh, great. We can do this. We can do this." So as soon as the ... And I guess let me preface that I love writers, I love people, and I love talking to them and getting their stories. So when you suddenly presented me with an opportunity that I could sit at my keyboard and I could talk to people around the world in kind of a unifying way, and understand people, it just was like a big turn on for me.

I started a small writers' conference here in Williamson County, which was for more local authors. But about that time, the internet came on. And you and I talked before we started recording how technology is very frustrating to me, but I'm also the first one that goes, "Oh, great. We can do this. We can do this."

Clay: So suddenly, I had this local conference that I wanted to expand, and the people here didn't really want to expand it. They wanted to have it continue, the local conference, so I started the Killer Nashville International Writers Conference. And the second year, we had people coming from Canada and South America. Now we have people coming from all over the world. And my goal is eventually to make a list of all of the countries and see if I can't get one author from all of those countries to eventually come to Killer Nashville before I become truly old and kind of kick the bucket. But that would be one of my bucket lists, if I could put one together, that we did have it because I truly think, and this comes from my personal philosophy as well, I truly think that our writing is something that we've got ...

Clay: The world, we're not in a bad place in the world. People like to think we're in a bad place in the world. There's a lot of division. There's a lot of whatever. I love history. I'm a history nut. There've been some really rough times in history that don't even, this time doesn't even compare to that. And everybody survived and think, but once you see the through line is the writers who are sharing ideas. It is the writers who are unifying and showing the commonness of everybody around the world. And suddenly, we have the technology to reach around the world. And so all of that just excited me to no end.

I love history. I'm a history nut. There've been some really rough times in history that don't even, this time doesn't even compare to that. And everybody survived and think, but once you see the through line is the writers who are sharing ideas.

Clay: And I said, "We've got to have an international conference that brings together writers, and not just bringing together writers to talk, but to bring together new writers," because it's so important to have new voices, new perspectives. And I'm not talking about in terms of age. I'm talking about in terms of demographics, in terms of socioeconomic levels, we need to hear those people because those people are going to be the ones that give us an understanding. And to me, that's why I read, because I want that understanding. I want to learn. I want to understand.

Clay: And so I feel very, obviously, passionate about Killer Nashville and what we've been able to do bringing people in. But to hear somebody's coming in from Japan, get to talk to them, someone from Italy, some from Scotland, from wherever, and to have them here present. And yes, it's one thing to talk, and of course, this was pre-Zoom, so we didn't have the pictures and everything that went along. But it's one thing to type and have a pen pal relationship with someone. But to actually have someone there and sit down and have a lunch and the hotel,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime fiction writer, Richard Meredith.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’ve been using Blubrry podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years, and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They provide great service. You’re in complete control of your own podcast. You never have to leave your own website. There is a plugin that you can use to incorporate Blubrry and distribution through your website. So it’s a great service that has taken a lot of the work of podcasting out for me. And I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, you should try this. If you want a podcast, try out Bluebrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract. It’s just a great company, period. And I am a Blubrry affiliate. So there’s that.

Debbi (02:07): And did I mention that they have free technical support by email, video and phone? Yes, you can actually reach a human being there. I’ll say no more.

Debbi: Hi everyone. We're back for a seventh season of the podcast, which just blows me away. I mean time flies, man. I can't believe I've been doing this for six years. Anyway, as always, I'm blown away also by the variety of backgrounds that people bring into the writing craft. And my first guest for this season is no exception. He has a background in biology. He's worked as a marine scientist and wildlife biologist for the federal government and the private sector. He has also worked on commercial fishing boats. My guest today is author Richard Meredith. Hi, Richard. Thanks so much for being here today.

Richard: Hi, Debbi. Thank you very much for having me. It's a real honor to be with Crime Cafe. And I also want to thank you for posting my guest blog on your website. That was wonderful.

Debbi: Oh, my pleasure to do so. Like I said, you have a very interesting background. What was it you did on commercial fishing boats?

Richard: Well, this may be before your time, but there was during the '70s, there was this controversy about the tuna dolphin controversy where the fishing boats were catching the dolphin and so I was one of the government monitors on those boats. So I did that for about two years.

Debbi: That isn't before my time, by the way.

Richard: And I did that for a couple of years. And then my wife said the next job that comes in on the beach, take it. That was in Kansas City. So I got pretty far from the ocean after that.

Debbi: Well, that's very interesting. I used to work at EPA actually. So I was going to ask you if you did environmental protection.

Richard: Yeah, I was at the Corps of Engineers and we worked with EPA quite a bit. Yeah.

Debbi: Very good, excellent, wonderful. All that Clean Water Act stuff.

Richard: Yeah, exactly.

Debbi: There you go. Had you written any fiction before you wrote The Crow's Nest?

Richard: I wrote a novel called Sky Dance, which was about my experience. Well, it's a novel, but it was based on my experiences in Ecuador when I was working on doing environmental impact studies on petroleum projects down there. And that was self published. I did it through CreateSpace with Amazon. But this was the first one that was published by a publisher.

Debbi: I see. So is this the first in a series or is this a standalone?

Richard: This is a standalone. Yeah. My next three that are still, well, I'm trying to find a publisher, but they're a series. Yeah.

Debbi: Tell us a little about The Crow's Nest. What's it about?

Richard: Well, I say that The Crow's Nest is a crime thriller without police, federal agents, or the military. It's just two men seeking justice against a brutal cartel. It's unique so far in that I think it's the only novel about the use of the crude submarines in the smuggling of cocaine between Columbia and Northern Mexico. I describe it as the mutant spawn of Das Boot and Savages. But in a nutshell, The Crow's Nest is a story about two men, Jonny LeBeau, who's a notorious smuggler, and Chase Brenner, who's an innocent fishermen. And for different reasons, both men get sideways with the vicious Baja cartel and the capo, Fernando Cuervo. They're desperate and are on the run, and they figure that the only chance to survive is to bargain for their lives. But they really don't have any leverage.

The Crow's Nest is a crime thriller without police, federal agents, or the military. It's just two men seeking justice against a brutal cartel. It's unique so far in that I think it's the only novel about the use of the crude submarines in the smuggling of cocaine between Columbia and Northern Mexico.

Richard: So Jonny, who has some inside information about the cartel, conceives a plan to hijack one of the cartel's secret narco submarines, and he figures with 100 million dollars worth of cocaine onboard they can cut a deal. And it's a great idea until the cartel's chief sicario, a man named [inaudible 00:06:46] kidnaps Chase's family. Now things get a little more complicated and Jonny faces the moral dilemma of his life. Ditch Chase, the man who saved him from sure death, or escape with riches beyond his wildest dreams and lose it all, including his life just to save Chase's wife and family. And from there, there's much mayhem on the road to resolution. That's it in a nutshell.

Debbi: That's interesting. It sounds like almost a little bit like an action adventure with psychological thriller thrown in there.

Richard: A little bit. All the characters are flawed in some way.

Debbi: Interesting. Do you feel that your experience on commercial fishing boats contributed in any way toward the writing of this book?

Richard: Yeah, the technical aspects, but there were no personalities like this onboard the boats. They were pretty nice guys overall.

Debbi: Yeah. Let's see. Do you write full-time or are you still employed?

Richard: No, I'm retired. I retired about three years ago. And I write, well, full time when I'm not babysitting with the grandkids. But I try to get in a couple, three or four hours a day. But I think as I told you in my interview, that I'm a lazy writer. I have to wait for the mood to hit me. I'm always taking notes and things, but to sit down and put it together, it takes me awhile.

Debbi: It does take a certain amount of discipline though, doesn't it?

Richard: Yeah, It does. I always tell friends it's the hardest thing to start and the easiest thing to quit, but in between it's a lot of fun.

Debbi: Yeah. There's that. I think that's a good observation there. Between the hard times, it can be fun. Do you have a particular, you don't have a particular routine I take it for writing? Or is there a time of day or something- ?

Richard: I'm pretty much a morning person. If I can get up, have a cup of coffee and go to work right away, I'm good for about two or three hours doing it that way. Then after that it's on the web, doing filing, or all the menial labor after that. But every once in a while you get, something comes into your head and you have to write down the note and you wait, use it for the next morning.

I'm pretty much a morning person. If I can get up, have a cup of coffee and go to work right away, I'm good for about two or three hours doing it that way.

Debbi: Absolutely. Yeah. Get those ideas while they're fresh. How would you describe your writing to someone who's never read your books?

Richard: Describe the writing?

Debbi: Yeah.

Richard: It's a crime thriller, a lot of action adventure. I think that would be it. I see a movie script in everything I write, but no one wants to buy a script yet. But there's a lot of action. Yeah.

Debbi: Interesting. Are the endings noirish or more upbeat?

Richard: Upbeat.

Debbi: Okay. So good guys win?

Richard: Yeah, I like-

Debbi: Or better guys win maybe.

Richard: Sometimes someone may get away, but the good guys win in the end.

Debbi: Cool. Let's see. You travel a lot you said. Do you set your stories in the places that you visit? And how much does location, how much of a part does location play in your writing?

Richard: I think setting is very important to me almost because it forms a character, where they're at. And I've been fortunate in my career to travel a lot of different places and have a lot of different experiences. And so far, each one of them has contributed to one of my books. So I think it's very important for me for setting.

I think setting is very important to me almost because it forms a character, where they're at. And I've been fortunate in my career to travel a lot of different places and have a lot of different experiences.

Debbi: It's almost as if the choice of that setting is a function of character because only a certain type of character would choose to do these jobs.

Richard: Right. In fact, my latest one I'm working on is about this woman who is a hardhat diver. And I had an experience working with hard-hat divers in the Sacramento River where they're recovering pipelines. And I have her uncovering this strong box that was lost during the California gold rush 150 years ago. So that setting, having this hard hat diver, then how did she get there? That's not typically an occupation you find a lot of women in, but that really took the whole story away right there.

Debbi: Yeah. I would think so. And when is this taking place, with the hardhat diver?

Richard: Oh, this is contemporary.

Debbi: Contemporary, right. Okay, cool. What writers would you say have most inspired your work?

Richard: It changed. I think initially when I was a kid, I saw some James Bond movies and started reading all of Ian Fleming. I think one summer I read everything. And then the mid '70s, I was really into John D. MacDonald's Travis McGee series. And then Michael Crichton has always been a favorite because of the mix of scienc

Debbi Mack interviews intellectual property attorney Kathryn Goldman on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Debbi (00:54): But first let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’ve been using Blubrry podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years, and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They provide great service. You’re in complete control of your own podcast. You never have to leave your own website. There is a plugin that you can use to incorporate Blubrry and distribution through your website. So it’s a great service that has taken a lot of the work of podcasting out for me. And I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, you should try this. If you want a podcast, try out Bluebrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract. It’s just a great company, period. And I am a Blubrry affiliate. So there’s that.

Debbi (02:07): And did I mention that they have free technical support by email, video and phone? Yes, you can actually reach a human being there. I’ll say no more.

And, once again, we have a transcription of the show notes. It’s a miracle! Click here to download a copy in PDF.

And check us out on Patreon.

Debbi (00:12): Hi, everyone! Today I have as my guest a person of great value to writers and other creators, an intellectual property attorney. Her particular interest is in protecting online content and representing writers, artists, photographers, and other businesses who have an online presence. She is editor of the legal blog, Creative Law Center, which I can tell you is a must-read for writers, artists and other creative people. And in the interest of full disclosure, both of us attended law school at the University of Maryland School of Law and graduated in 1987. So, yay Maryland! It's a pleasure to introduce our guest today, Kathryn Goldman. Hi, Kathryn. So good to see you.

Kathryn (03:19): Thank you for having me, Debbi. How are you today?

Debbi (03:23): I'm fine. Thank you. How are you doing?

Kathryn (03:25): Good. Good. It's a beautiful day outside.

Debbi (03:28): Wonderful. A little chilly, but that's okay. We'll bear with it. You know, April will improve as time goes by. Let's see. Let's talk first about the CASE Act. Now, what is the CASE Act? And what are the benefits for indie authors and publishers?

Kathryn (03:48): So the CASE Act is the Copyright Alternative in Small Claims Enforcement Act: CASE. That's what that stands for. And it was passed at the end of last year. It's been bouncing around in Washington for a lot of years now and it's finally gotten passed. And what it does is it gives any copyright holder the ability to enforce their rights in a small claims tribunal. The Copyright Office is going to set up the Copyright Claims Board. And so you will be able to file a claim against someone if your work is being infringed. And you don't have to go into federal court, which can be extraordinarily expensive. So this is really, really beneficial for indie authors and small businesses, small publishers, and creatives to enforce their rights.

So the CASE Act is the Copyright Alternative in Small Claims Enforcement Act: CASE. That's what that stands for. And it was passed at the end of last year. It's been bouncing around in Washington for a lot of years now and it's finally gotten passed. And what it does is it gives any copyright holder the ability to enforce their rights in a small claims tribunal.

Debbi (04:57): Now, the scope of this act covers anything that can be copyrighted, correct?

Kathryn (05:02): That's right. If you have a copyright registration on your creative work, you can go and enforce your rights at the Copyright Claims Board and the types of claims that the board will hear are infringement claims and claims of abuse under the DMCA. Are you familiar with the DMCA?

Debbi (05:32): I know of it. Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Correct?

Kathryn (05:35): Correct. Correct. And so the DMCA has a system whereby if someone has posted your protected work online, you can issue a takedown notice to the web host and you can have that unauthorized copy taken down off of that website. The problem with the DMCA is that the person who posted it can file a counter notice within 10 days and the unauthorized copy goes right back up again. So it has no real teeth as an enforcement mechanism and what you have to do at that point in order to keep the unauthorized work off of that site is you have to go into federal court, which is extraordinarily expensive to do. So, the Copyright Claims Board is going to be able to hear cases under the DMCA if there has been abuse. Somebody has filed a counter notice to put work back up that they actually did not own. So now the Copyright Claims Board can put an end to that game of Whack-a-Mole that a lot of authors are going through.

Debbi (07:01): Mmm-hmm. Now at this point, the board itself is not actually formed, correct?

Kathryn (07:07): That is correct. They, the Copyright Office is now hiring the attorneys who will make up the claims board officers. They are setting up the processes. They are formulating their rules. They're setting up the fee structure, they're building the infrastructure, the website where people will go and file their claims. So all of this is being set up and they have a year to do that, which means that hopefully it'll be set up by the end of this year. The law passed on December 27th of last year. So they have a year to do it. And if it's, if they don't think they're going to make it in that year, they can ask Congress for a six month extension. But they look like they're going, you know, great guns and it looks like that they're going to get it done.

Debbi (08:08): Very interesting. So the process then would be conducted online entirely.

Kathryn (08:14): Yeah. And that's the beauty of it. I mean, we're all now used to Zoom meetings and we've all seen some of the court proceedings that have occurred on Zoom. I know.

Debbi (08:33): I've heard about them.

Kathryn (08:33): I know. The lawyer who had the filter with the cat.

Debbi (08:38): I've heard so many different stories at this point.

Kathryn (08:41): So we're going to be able to have these hearings on Zoom or on some kind of video platform. And another key is that these independent artists and authors will not need to hire an attorney to represent them. And that is a huge savings. The affordability of the CASE Act is enormous for independent creatives.

[A]nother key is that these independent artists and authors will not need to hire an attorney to represent them. And that is a huge savings. The affordability of the CASE Act is enormous for independent creatives.

Debbi (09:12): And the the remedies are basically limited to take down, correct?

Kathryn (09:17): No, you can get damages up to $30,000.

Debbi (09:22): Thank you for mentioning that.

Kathryn (09:24): Yes. Now, now, if you go into federal court, the judge would consider what's called willfulness. If somebody willfully infringed your copyright. And in that case, the damages could be up to $150,000 in federal court. It's very hard to prove willfulness. The Copyright Claims Board will not consider willfulness. So there is no opportunity to go above $30,000 in damages.

Debbi (09:56): Is that amount set or is it liquidated in other words?

Kathryn (10:03): It's not, yeah, that's the maximum and it's not clear to me yet how they're going to be determining damages. There is a statutory component, and then I'm sure there's going to be some kind of lost revenue, lost licensing fee component. And you're going to have to choose between one or the other. But regardless of which way you choose to measure the damages for infringement, they're going to be capped at $30,000.

Debbi (10:37): Very interesting. It's going to be interesting to see how that develops. Do you have any thoughts on how to best organize online content to submit it for copyright?

Kathryn (10:50): Right. So it's really important that independent creators and writers have their work registered with the Copyright Office because without a registration, you're not going to be entitled to a decision from the claims board. You will be able to file a claim with just having filed the application, but you won't be entitled to a final decision until you have a registration on your work. Okay? So now we have this whole year for people who have not prepared their work or have not filed for applications on their work to clean up their portfolio and get everything registered. I talk a lot about that on my blog at the creativelawcenter.com, I talk how to triage your portfolio, your backlog of works, so that you can figure out what you should be applying for first. How do you, how do you build up protection in your portfolio? Now, with respect to online work.

So it's really important that independent creators and writers have their work registered with the Copyright Office because without a registration, you're not going to be entitled to a decision from the claims board. You will be able to file a claim with just having filed the application, but you won't be entitled to a final decision until you have a registration on your work.

Kathryn (12:13): There's a new form that the Copyright Office has come out with for filing groups. An application to cover a group of short online, literary works and short online literary works could be blog posts. They could be social media posts. They could be anything you, you, you do in snippets. And there's a, there's a size limitation. I believe it has to be under 10,000 words. So these, and you can group them together in groups of three months and you can group them all together and you can file one application in four all online posts that you did in three months and in the Creative Law Center, there's a membership. And we did a complete workshop on how to file that application.

...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Daniella Bernett on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’ve been using Blubrry podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years, and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They provide great service. You’re in complete control of your own podcast. You never have to leave your own website. There is a plugin that you can use to incorporate Blubrry and distribution through your website. So it’s a great service that has taken a lot of the work of podcasting out for me. And I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, you should try this. If you want a podcast, try out Bluebrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract. It’s just a great company, period. And I am a Blubrry affiliate. So there’s that.

Debbi (02:07): And did I mention that they have free technical support by email, video and phone? Yes, you can actually reach a human being there. I’ll say no more.

And, once again, we have a transcription of the show notes. It’s a miracle! Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (02:25): Hi everyone. Today we have another author making a repeat appearance on the podcast. Her mystery series now includes her sixth novel Old Sins Never Die. You can find my own review of the book on my blog as well as on GoodReads and so forth. I gave it five stars, by the way. So check it out. It's a pleasure to welcome back the very talented writer, Daniella Burnett. Hi Daniella.

Daniella (03:00): Hi Debbi. It's always nice to come back And speak to you about mysteries and books and all sorts of things. So I thank you for having me back again.

Debbi (03:06): Well, it's a pleasure, believe me. And I enjoyed your book very, very much.

Daniella (03:12): Oh, thank you. That's very gratifying. I always like hearing that. I never get tired of that.

Debbi (03:17): Somehow that seems to be a common trait of authors. I can't imagine why. Even though technically you write the Emmeline Kirby-Gregory Longdon series, do you tend to think of Emmeline as being really the main protagonist?

Daniella (03:38): Well, she tends to get into more of the trouble, but I think I view them as equal protagonists because they both bring different aspects to solving the crime and ensuring that the criminal is caught. So I think it's an equal between the two of them.

Debbi (03:58): That's good. Actually, I like that. Yeah, because Gregory certainly has a complicated backstory of his own.

Daniella (04:08): Oh, he does. But that makes him interesting.

Debbi (04:11): Very, very interesting. Apart from the investigatory role of journalists generally, was there a reason that you chose journalism as her profession?

Daniella (04:26): Well, as you said, it's a way ... she's not a professional sleuth, but journalists have that inherent need to find out the truth, to make sure in cases of a crime to make sure that justice is served. So that was, I didn't want to have a police officer, but I wanted someone who had a similar type of role. So, that seemed like the perfect career for my protagonist when I was envisioning the series. Plus, I studied journalism. So, you know, I had a little bit of familiarity with that, that whole skill, that whole so forth. So that's why I thought a journalist would be an ideal protagonist.

I didn't want to have a police officer, but I wanted someone who had a similar type of role. So, that seemed like the perfect career for my protagonist when I was envisioning the series. Plus, I studied journalism. So, you know, I had a little bit of familiarity with that, that whole skill, that whole so forth.

Debbi (05:17): Yeah, I can, I can understand that as I have a journalism background myself. Understanding that type of mindset. The need to find out the truth, the desire to express it.

Daniella (05:32): Right. And to make sure that the public knows the truth, you know, that things shouldn't be hidden, you know, everything should be out there in the open. I mean, granted, you know, if it's a security issue, you don't want that out in the open, but in terms of everything else, you know, the public has a right to know which as readers know, that's Emmeline's core, the core of her fabric is to make sure that the public knows the truth.

Debbi (06:00): Yes. So, tell us just a little bit about your latest book Old Sins Never Die, and by the way, everyone, an excerpt from the book is featured on my blog from last week. So if you go back and check for that, you'll see that. But go ahead.

Daniella (06:19): Okay. Well, just to show everybody Old Sins Never Die. [Displays cover.] And this book is set in, well, it starts off in London. Then it's also set in Grasmere in the Lake District, and ultimately, it's up on the Isle of Mull in Scotland. So these are all places I visited because, in my books, setting plays an important role. It's almost like another character that I feel sets the mood of the story. So, in this case, in this book, Emmeline and Gregory, they've finally got married in this book. But on their honeymoon, in Grasmere in the Lake District while taking a sightseeing trip on Lake Windermere, they overhear a man trying to hire an international assassin. So who else on their honeymoon would run into trouble? Only Emmeline and Gregory. So this sets off an avalanche of trouble.

And this book is set in, well, it starts off in London. Then it's also set in Grasmere in the Lake District, and ultimately, it's up on the Isle of Mull in Scotland. So these are all places I visited because, in my books, setting plays an important role. It's almost like another character that I feel sets the mood of the story.

Daniella (07:20): They rush back to inform the authorities in London. Meanwhile, they don't know who the victim is. All they overheard was that someone was trying to hire an assassin. So that's another element of the story, who is this person that is the target of the hit? Meanwhile, back in London, Emmeline's also pursuing the story about this shipping magnate, Noel Rallis, who's on trial for murder, and he's involved in this sinister scheme called Poseidon with Lord Desmond Starrett, a former diplomat, a member of Parliament, and the complications ensue. And they just keep growing because at a party, the ballerina, Anastasia Tarasova, who is a former lover of Rallis, threatened to tell his secrets to everyone. And she ends up being murdered at the party. So, you know, layer upon layer of trouble keeps piling up and Emmeline and Gregory are forced to find the truth.

Meanwhile, back in London, Emmeline's also pursuing the story about this shipping magnate, Noel Rallis, who's on trial for murder, and he's involved in this sinister scheme called Poseidon with Lord Desmond Starrett, a former diplomat, a member of Parliament, and the complications ensue.

Debbi (08:32): That's what I love about your books. They're just not complicated at all.

Daniella (08:38): No, no, you need that layer of complication. The readers, the readers need complication to tease their intellect. They don't want just a boring story. You have to have trouble on top of trouble.

Debbi (08:51): Of course, you do. Naturally, but wow. I mean, just listening to you describe that plot. I mean, that is just fabulous. And so you mentioned now they're married and I thought, wow, that's quite a change in their relationship. How do you think that changes things for the series in general?

Daniella (09:16): I don't really think, well, I mean, my readers would have to tell me that, but in my view, I don't think it really changes the dynamic of their relationship because, well, before Emily was hesitant to get, because they had been a couple, then they had broken up and then they got back together. Those were the previous books and now ultimately they were married. So that underlying, romantic tension was always there and they always each respected each other's judgment and intelligence. So that I think is—since you've read the book—I think I tried to enhance that even more now that they are, they are finally together. I think they just compliment each other even more. I don't think their marriage hurts that relationship because that romantic element of it was always there before.

Debbi (10:17): Mmm-hmm. And really the focus of a lot of what makes them interesting is the difference in their characters. Here's Emmeline, the irresistible force for finding the truth, against Gregory's somewhat immovable object of keeping his larcenous tendencies to himself from her. How is that going to play out?

Daniella (10:46): Well, you know, that's, he's a former jewel thief, because that was the ultimatum she laid down when they got married, that he had to find a legitimate form of employment. But as readers see, he can't quite give up that thrill of stealing jewels. He just has to be a little bit more careful so that she doesn't find out cause she will kill him if she finds out. But, you know, he loves her just as much, but you know, that thrill of stealing jewels, he can't quite give that up. You know, it's a different type of love. He compartmentalizes those two aspects of his life. And, as you said, in terms of their—I wanted to create two different characters. You know, Emmeline was always the truth, always on the side of law. Gregory comes from a different aspect.

Well, you know, that's, he's a former jewel thief, because that was the ultimatum she laid down when they got married, that he had to find a legitimate form of employment. But as readers see, he can't quite give up that thrill of stealing jewels. He just has to be a little bit more careful so that she doesn't find out cause she will kill him if she finds out.

Daniella (11:39): You know, he is, you know, on the other side of the law,...