The Crime Cafe

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Laurie Buchanan on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Debbi (00:54): But first let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’ve been using Blubrry podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years, and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They provide great service. You’re in complete control of your own podcast. You never have to leave your own website. There is a plugin that you can use to incorporate Blubrry and distribution through your website. So it’s a great service that has taken a lot of the work of podcasting out for me. And I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, you should try this. If you want a podcast, try out Bluebrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract. It’s just a great company, period. And I am a Blubrry affiliate. So there’s that.

Debbi (02:07): And did I mention that they have free technical support by email, video and phone? Yes, you can actually reach a human being there. I’ll say no more.

And, once again, we have a transcription of the show notes. It’s a miracle! Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (00:12): Hi everyone. My guest today is the author of two self-help books and the first in a new series of crime novels. Her debut novel Indelible introduces Sean McPherson, an ex-cop turned handyman at a writer's retreat where the story takes place. Her next book in the series Iconoclast is scheduled for release in May of 2022. Twenty twenty-two. She enjoys yoga, bicycling, camping, and travel. She also likes long walks, including apparently a 211-mile hike across Scotland. Well, I'm ready to go if she is, back. Scotland's cool. It's my pleasure to introduce today's guest Laurie Buchanan. Hi Laurie. Thanks for being here.

Laurie (01:50): Thanks for having me.

Debbi (01:52): Sure thing. It's a pleasure. What inspired you to start writing crime fiction? After two self-help books?

Laurie (02:08):I had been to, I won't name it, but I had been to a very large conference, writing conference in the Midwest. And I teach and sometimes I'm in the audience and do both sometimes at a conference, and I was teaching at a conference, but in this case I was in the audience listening to another speaker. And you know, when people go to a writing conference, they pay good money and they assume that what they're being told is accurate. And a speaker got up, a female, a well-known female writer, and she said, and she looked everybody in the face. And she said, "I hope you enjoy the genre that you're writing in because you are stuck in it. You can only write in one genre." And I thought, you know, I wanted to just stand up and say, "No, no, no, no, that's not true." So my, my way of saying that's not true is to, I stepped out of my comfort zone nonfiction and I started writing fiction and I absolutely love it.

Debbi (03:04): It is wonderful, isn't it to use your imagination that way? Let's see. I take it that being at this writer's conference might've been part of the inspiration for setting your book in a your retreat?

Laurie (03:20): Actually, no, I was writing my first book. I got an idea writing my first book, even though, even though my idea was for fiction, I was writing my first book and I was at a retreat on Whidbey Island and I, it was a retreat for all women writers and across the way I happened to see with my very own eyes, an extraordinarily handsome man who was the groundskeeper and he was limping. And that planted a seed, it just planted a seed and that seed took hold and grew roots, and many years later, came out in the form of a book.

I was writing my first book and I was at a retreat on Whidbey Island and I, it was a retreat for all women writers and across the way I happened to see with my very own eyes, an extraordinarily handsome man who was the groundskeeper and he was limping. And that planted a seed, it just planted a seed and that seed took hold and grew roots, and many years later, came out in the form of a book.

Debbi (04:06): That's fascinating. It just goes to show how much of our life experiences can inspire a story.

Laurie (04:12): Absolutely. And you know, I'm sure that you do this too. I think whether a person's a writer or not, all of us are, I think, people watchers and you never know what that thing is that's going to trigger this whole domino effect.

Debbi (04:29): So true. How would you describe your writing as a genre? Crime fiction, mystery, thriller, suspense?

Laurie (04:41): Yes. Yes, It's actually, crime fiction, it falls under that umbrella. And then within there, thriller, suspense, mystery. Actually, a lot of people call it mystery. It's even out there on Amazon as one of the little things, but you know, a mystery, a true mystery is where the reader doesn't know who done it till the end. In a suspense thriller, which mine is, you know, right off the bat. Jason's the bad guy. There's no, there's no qualms about that. Right at the beginning, in the prologue, which I think you've put on your website, you know, right from the beginning. And what makes it suspense is that the reader knows what's going on, the people in the book don't. And so they're saying, run, run, don't open the door, don't whatever it is, you know? And so that's what makes it suspenseful because the reader knows exactly who it is but the characters don't.

Debbi (05:38): Exactly right. That's why I always like to ask about these things, because really it struck me as very much suspense, definitely with kind of the thriller edge to it. I sense that it will get even more so as the book goes on. Let's see. Even though your main character is ostensibly Sean McPherson, it's funny how he goes by the name Mick, because of McPherson. It's almost as if he's trying to minimize his presence by sort of stepping away from being Sean.

Laurie (06:13): He ... yes.

Debbi (06:14): And then you had this ensemble, which I thought was really amazing, you know, kind of this ensemble around a writing treat. What inspired you to structure the novel, that particular way, putting each person in?

Laurie (06:31): Because I write, I get the opportunity to meet a lot of writers and, and writers like anybody else have wonderful personalities and we all have these different things that shine, and we all have these different things that maybe are quirky. And so I started thinking about the different elements. If I'm going to write a series, I have to have different people each time. Otherwise it's going to be very, very boring and I can't have, you know, just a cookie cutter A with different people, cookie cutter B with different people, cookie cutter C. You can't do that and be as successful in a series. So I had to think about how. I had to think in advance, because I knew I wanted to do a series. How can I do this and do this extraordinarily well? So I have, the retreat starts on the first day of each month.

If I'm going to write a series, I have to have different people each time. Otherwise it's going to be very, very boring and I can't have, you know, just a cookie cutter A with different people, cookie cutter B with different people, cookie cutter C. ... I had to think in advance, because I knew I wanted to do a series. How can I do this and do this extraordinarily well?

Laurie (07:21): The first book starts in May and it goes for three weeks, 21 days, and then they leave and then a week off so they can clean everything up. They go visit their mom and dad in San Francisco come back. And then they're ready for the next month's writers and residents. Another group of four. Typically four. Something happens in Impervious. So each person has to be kind of interesting, you know, interesting in their own little substory what's going on in their life. They're each writing a book or trying to get a book written. And it just took off from there. I love, I love ... I've got in the first one, I've got Jason, the bad guy. I have Cynthia, a forensic intuitive. I've got Fran who is a person writing about her experience of not being able to have a child and her husband divorcing her for that. And then I've got Emma who's in a wheelchair. And every time there's a group of four that come to Pines and Quill, which is a fictitious writing retreat in a very real location. Fairhaven is the historic district of Bellingham, Washington. But Austen Cottage, there's four cottages. There's Austen, Brontë, Dickens, and Thoreau. Austen Cottage is designed specifically for wheelchair access. And it's very roomy. It's gorgeous. Anyway, Emma rolls with her wheelchair at the, when, when Nick is picking them up at the airport, rolls toward him in her wheelchair and rolls right into his heart.

Debbi (08:58): Interesting. So there's a touch of romance in there and your self-help books. What inspired you to start off writing those? And how did you handle switching from nonfiction to fiction?

Laurie (09:16): Well, when I, after I hung up my shingle, I hung up my shingle of being an HHP, a holistic health practitioner. My PhD is in energy medicine. And, while I was in practice, had a brick and mortar practice called Holessence. Two words put together--holistic essence, Holessence. I created a program and any time anybody went through the program, they said, this should be a book. This should be a book. This should be a book. And so it became a book. That's my first book Note to Self: A Seven-Step Path to Gratitude and Growth. And then people said, well, my gosh, you know, you seem to be a subject matter expert in business. And a lot of the people that came to me, cause I wasn't just an HHP. I was a coach, too. And they, they wanted to be coached about business, about having their own business, leaving the corporate world, or what have you. And hence came The Business of Being: Soul Purpose In and Out of the Workplace. And then I went to that conference. Somebody said something, and I thought,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Frank Zafiro on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Debbi (00:54): But first let me put in a good word for Bluebrry podcasting.

I've been using Bluebrry podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years, and it's one of the best decisions I ever made. They provide great service. You're in complete control of your own podcast. You never have to leave your own website. There is a plugin that you can use to incorporate Bluebrry and distribution through your website. So it's a great service that has taken a lot of the work of podcasting out for me. And I find for that reason that it's a company that I can get behind 100% and say, you should try this. If you want a podcast, try out Bluebrry. It doesn't require a long-term contract. It's just a great company, period. And I am a Bluebrry affiliate. So there's that.

Debbi (02:07): And did I mention that they have free technical support by email, video and phone? Yes, you can actually reach a human being there. I'll say no more.

And, once again, we have a transcription of the show notes. It's a miracle! :) Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (02:24): Hi everyone. Today, I have a guest making his second appearance on the podcast, a retired police officer, he hails from the great state of Oregon. The author of more than 30 novels, including the River City series and the Charlie-316 series, he also hosts his own podcast, Wrong Place, Write Crime, which I have had the pleasure of being on. My guest today is Frank Zafiro. Hi, Frank. Welcome back. And thanks for being here.

Frank (03:00): Hey, Debbi. Great to be back again.

Debbi (03:02): Excellent. Wonderful. It's good to see you. You seem to be making something of a career out of writing collaborative novels and series. Can you write them faster than you would if you were writing them on your own or is it about the same?

Frank (03:20): Oh, I think it's faster. For a couple of reasons, I mean one you are you know, you're only writing about half of the first draft, so you know, it's faster, you know? Uh, but the other thing is, is that when you're working and the bigger piece is when you're working with someone else there's a certain synergy that, that kicks in and you really gain momentum. And so when you get the piece back and it's your turn to write something you're energized and you also don't want to keep your partner waiting. In some cases, the person I'm working with, they're not working on anything else, at least not in the first draft stage. And so I'm kind of holding them up while we're doing this in a way is how I feel about it. So I want to get it back to them as quick as possible. But I think it would happen either way because there's just, you just get that really strong momentum going that you're, you know, you're building something great. And it just, it goes really fast. I mean, Charlie-316 took like three weeks and it was a hundred thousand word draft. I mean, that, to me, that was just, that blew my mind when we got to the end of it and looked at how long it had taken.

Debbi (04:47): Oh my gosh, that was for a first draft, right?

Frank (04:50): Yeah. And you know, the thing of it is, it's the first draft, but the way that the process works, it's a pretty tight first draft because it's been essentially edited twice, once by each of us throughout the process. So but yeah, it's still, still technically a first draft.

Debbi (05:09): Well, that's fantastic. Three weeks. Wow.

Frank (05:13): That's a bit of an aberration, but that's a good example of how quickly things can happen.

Debbi (05:19): I was going to say would most of them be like that?

Frank (05:24): Most of them are like that. Not quite as fast, but, but I, there hasn't been one that, that for in which that first draft lagged or dragged, they've all gone quickly. You know, sometimes the editing process has gone just as quickly. Other times, it's, it's taken a little bit longer than we we've gone about it differently, or we've been more methodical or taken our time or other projects have pushed it onto the shelf briefly. And then we pull off and get back to work on it or when it's ready to go, deciding how to approach it, whether to send it to an agent, a publisher or to publish it independently, that's a stage that maybe it's sat for awhile. But, in each of the cases, and I think I've done I'd have to go back and count, but it's at least 12 books. Uh, every one of them went quick in the initial first draft.

Debbi (06:20): Mmm-hmm. Yeah. I was curious about how many books you work on at the same time, this way, if you do work on other books at the same time, and how do you release the books? Do you do a release on one series then another, or do you sort of alternate between the series? How does that work?

Frank (06:48): So I tend to not work on more than one book at a time in the first draft mode. I've kind of learned to on a creative level to try to stay in the same skin. And so that might be another reason why it goes pretty quickly because, you know, if I have something else to get to, I know I need to get through this to get to that. And I can't get to that until we're done, so let's get busy, you know, but I don't feel that same restriction when it comes to editing. I feel like that's a little easier to do regardless of what else you're doing. And so at any given time, I might be working on one book whether that's my own or a collaboration editing another book again, it could be a collaboration, could be one of my solo works, and I might be be reading, you know, beta reading, doing a deep critique for one of my friends or co-authors on a completely different book that I had, you know, that I didn't write or didn't have any input on.

So I tend to not work on more than one book at a time in the first draft mode. I've kind of learned to on a creative level to try to stay in the same skin. And so that might be another reason why it goes pretty quickly because, you know, if I have something else to get to, I know I need to get through this to get to that.

Frank (08:00): And, and so I can do that with the editing. I can work on multiple things at once. But, I try to stay on just the one with the with the actual first draft. And then your second question, you're talking about can you clarify on that? I wanna make sure I answer it correctly.

Debbi (08:20): I was curious about release schedules. Basically, you have several series and I didn't know whether you released all the books in one series before you went on to the next one, or if you mix them up.

Frank (08:35): Well, historically it's been kind of a staggered. Initially I just was writing the River City series, kinda my main series, and I had several books in that series come out before I had written anything in another series. Uh, but once I started writing multiple series I kinda started lily-padding from one to the other and trying to kind of give them all a little bit of love. But it's also dictated by what story is kind of, has kind of forced its way to the top of my consciousness. And I might have notes, well, I do, I have notes for half a dozen different books in and in different series, but which one gets written next sometimes is the product of which one's screaming the loudest at me, you know, which fictional character refuses to be denied.

Frank (09:27): Uh, that might be the one that gets worked on next. And and essentially as soon as they're finished in terms of, you know, the editing process and the book cover and, and all the other things that go along with that, if I'm releasing them independently, I try to get them out. As soon as they're ready with a little bit of strategy. But, but frankly, I don't put a lot of stock in long pre-order periods or let's time it with Valentine's Day. I mean, you know, or, or something like that. My attitude is, is, hey, the book is ready. You know, the only thing I might take into consideration is say, I don't want to release it in competition with another of my own releases or my coauthors releases. So I might be strategic in that sense, but I feel like if I'm the reader and you're the writer, I mean, I want the next Sam McRae book, as soon as you're done with it, I don't want to wait six months, you know, so get that baby out there, you know, and I try to be right with my own stuff.

Debbi (10:33): Exactly. Uh let's see. So I take it that you are generally the one who comes up with the idea for the series or book, or have the collaborators come to you with ideas or the main idea.

Frank (10:53): Yeah. It's my collaborators have done a lot of heavy lifting on these series. Just to to give you an example the first series that I ever collaborated on was I believe was the Anya trilogy, or now it's actually got a prequel. So it's a quadrilogy with Jim Wilsky and that one, we kind of, I think we kind of tailored that one up together. That was pretty mutual. And then the although I will say that Jim came up with three out of the four titles and I think all four of the locations and settings and stuff. And and in all cases, Debbi, the collaborators I've worked with, it's been a true 50-50 split. Nobody's been senior or junior at all. Uh, but, but in terms of the genesis of the ideas when I did the Bricks and Cam job series with Eric Beetner, he came up with that premise.

It's my collaborators have done a lot of heavy lifting on these series. Just to to give you an example the first series that I ever collaborated on was I believe was the Anya trilogy, or now it's actually got a prequel. So it's a quadrilogy with Jim Wilsky and that one, we kind of, I think we kind of tailored that one up together. That was pretty mutual.

Frank (12:00): He wanted to do this, this two hit men idea. Uh, and then we went from there and working with, with Colin Conway and the Charlie-316 series, which is the most recent collaboration that I've had come out

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Troy Lambert on the Crime Cafe podcast.

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I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

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And, once again, we have a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (00:02): Hi everyone. My guest today is a freelance writer, author and editor, who also happens to own his own small niche publishing company. I'm very pleased to have with me today Troy Lambert. Hi, Troy. Good to have you on.

Troy (02:02): Hi. It is fantastic to be here.

Debbi (02:05): Well, I'm glad you're here. What kind of freelance writing do you do?

Troy (02:11): So I do a variety of freelance writing. I actually started out by writing government contracts, writing research papers for the federal government, which ... The number one thing that taught me was that my words were valuable and I could get paid for writing. And so that translated into an incentive for me to expand my fiction writing career, as well as my freelance writing career. But I primarily write about business and tech, those type of things. I don't there's other little things I write about from time to time, but those were my mainstays.

Debbi (02:46): Huh. So you still keep up the freelance writing then?

Troy (02:50): I do. I don't do as much as I used to, but I do. And I still, I read a lot about of in-depth articles about like SEO and Google and things like that related to business, because now I use that in business. So it's, it's actually a subject I'm really familiar with. So.

Debbi (03:08): Kind of a natural fit then. Is that your paying work or do you also make a living off of your fiction?

Troy (03:17): Yes. So I make a living off my fiction. I make a living off of editing and I make a living off of freelance writing, primarily. I have, there's, right now, the publisher that, the niche publisher that I have that we started last year is not profitable like many small businesses. It's still in the point where almost every bit of money that's coming in is going out to build the business further.

Debbi (03:41): Interesting. I was going to ask you about that publishing company. What niche do you serve?

Troy (03:46): So we primarily publish what I would call minor celebrity nonfiction. So there are people that are not going to get a deal with the big book publisher, because they're going to sell, you know, 20,000 books over their lifetime, not, you know, a million, but they've still got a viable story. They've still got a viable book and they need a pathway to get it out there. But we are attempting to change the thinking about publishing to more of a print to order print-on-demand type model instead of big print runs because big print runs are wasteful financially for one thing. Those books go back to the publisher and get pulped half the time. And it's just environmentally irresponsible to print books that we're not gonna sell and then we're not going to use. And so we feel like that allows us to cut costs, be more author-centric, offer better author contracts to these guys that wouldn't necessarily get a bigger contract somewhere else, but also to just cut down on the wasteful habits and big spending, the big publishers have that are engaged in constantly.

But we are attempting to change the thinking about publishing to more of a print to order print-on-demand type model instead of big print runs because big print runs are wasteful financially for one thing. Those books go back to the publisher and get pulped half the time. And it's just environmentally irresponsible to print books that we're not gonna sell and then we're not going to use.

Debbi (04:54): Yes. It's just baked into that industry. Isn't it? Good to see you doing things like this to change that. I couldn't agree with you more on all of those things you said. Where did you come up with the idea of writing a series of 50 novellas that take place in 50 state capitals? And why did you choose to do that?

Troy (05:19): Well, so that's, it's, it's actually kind of a funny story. So the guy that was writing the series with me, so we've had some dramatic changes over the last year. But the guy who was writing this series with me, Stuart Gustafson is a travel writer, but he has written some fiction and he decided, I want to write this big, long fiction series of 50 novellas, but he was like, I can't do this alone. And he said, number one, I can't do it alone. Number two, I need to find somebody who has writing discipline. And for some reason he thought of me. So, so he presented me with this idea, you know, basically in a coffee shop and said, Hey, do you want to do this? And I said sure. Let's give it a try thinking who knows where this will end up going?

Stuart Gustafson is a travel writer, but he has written some fiction and he decided, I want to write this big, long fiction series of 50 novellas, but he was like, I can't do this alone. And he said, number one, I can't do it alone. Number two, I need to find somebody who has writing discipline. And for some reason he thought of me.

Troy (06:05): Well anyway, so from there he came up with the essential idea and then of course it has morphed since then, as far as we have alliteration in all the names of the places and the murders that happened there. So Defenestration in Denver is about guys that get pushed out of a window in Denver. And it's really fun because a lot of people are like what is defenestration? But it also gives us kind of those clever titles and things like that. Sowe started with some of those, but we have changed those as we went along, then Stewart dropped out of the series to focus on his family and take care of some health issues there. Of course, and then of course COVID hit. So you know, that kind of changed our pace of doing things with only me doing it within the middle of a pandemic. So we've gone through some changes, but the original idea was Stuart's. And even though it is evolved since then, it's still based on his original idea.

Debbi (07:05): Wow, that's really something. And you plan to release one per month for 50 months?

Troy (07:12): We did. And we have since slowed that down, obviously because of the pandemic, we have slowed that down because our original plan was to get ahead, to write a bunch of them ahead and have a bunch of them in the banks. We weren't writing once a month, one a month. We were writing several ahead of time and releasing them once a month. Well, because of various circumstances that didn't happen. So that pace was just simply not sustainable. Actually, I'm doing a talk at a writer's conference about writing series next week. And one of the things I talked about is having ambitions and goals that are ambitious, but not ridiculous. And ours were ridiculous, but we didn't know that at the time. So we had to scale those back. So now we're back to releasing more like one a quarter.

So that pace was just simply not sustainable. Actually, I'm doing a talk at a writer's conference about writing series next week. And one of the things I talked about is having ambitions and goals that are ambitious, but not ridiculous. And ours were ridiculous, but we didn't know that at the time.

Troy (07:58): And we're also bringing in more writers on the series, as it goes forward. We're allowing other people to come in and write within the same universe. And there's some spinoffs being developed that tell more of the photographer, who's our main character, tell more of his story and those spinoffs will come out at various times as well. So that was helpful. And that also allowed us to create audiobooks as we go. Slowing down the pace meant that we have more time to produce more stuff and to do a better job of it. So.

Debbi (08:30): When you do the audiobooks, who do you use for narration?

Troy (08:34): So I use Larson Sound Studios, and she uses, there's a guy named Joseph Stevenson. He's a local voice actor and school teacher. So he had some extra time in March, too, to record some audiobooks while they were figuring out what was going to happen with school. So though I use those two, Larson Sound Studios is exceptionally good. She's fantastic at what she does. And she books out way in advance for creating audiobooks. So I'm lucky to have her.

Debbi (09:10): And I assume all of the interaction you have with your narrators is virtual.

Troy (09:14): Yes. It's all virtual at the moment. I mean, he's local, so I could meet up with him if we could meet up, you know, at some point, but for the most part, all of our interaction is virtual. And I actually, another one of my books Harvested came out in audio this year, too, in the middle of the pandemic. Not really when I wanted to be creating it. And I interacted with that narrator virtually as well. Both of the narrators, I've actually never met them. I've only heard their voice. So.

Debbi (09:47): Yeah. I mean, it's just, there's so much a person can do without even necessarily leaving the house.

Troy (09:55): Yes, true. I will say about audiobooks though that they are more work than people think because you're, you know, you're the final quality assurance person. Nobody else can really, you can't hire an assistant to do it or anything like that because you're the person who wrote the books, so you know what it's supposed to sound like, you know,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer James H. Roby on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

And, once again, we have a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (00:12): Hi everyone. Our guest today is the author of the UrbanKnights thriller series. He served as an Air Force officer on active duty and in the reserves for more than 10 years. He also does his share of cool traveling to places like London, Toronto, the Arctic Circle, and the Caribbean. He also hails from the Motor City, Detroit. My guest today is James Roby. Hi James.

James (01:23): Hello. How are you today?

Debbi (01:25): I'm fine. How are you?

James (01:27): I am outstanding. I'm happy to be here.

Debbi (01:30): Excellent. Excellent. Good. So how did you get involved in fiction writing? What got you started with that?

James (01:37): Well I mean, honestly, it's been almost like a lifelong thing. I remember my father liking, you know, oh, Humphrey Bogart-type movies and you know, the crime thrillers and noir and that kind of thing. And I, and I kinda picked that up from him. And then as I got older, I started looking at things like James Bond. And then later I started seeing like Shaft and all those things kind of molded together in my mind to this character I eventually created. But you know, I remember distinctly, and I'm dating myself, going to see Superman with Christopher Reeve and just being so moved by the, you know, I was a little kid, but it was like, this is a story that I wish I was in. So I started writing a character that was Superman, but it was my background.

James (02:30): And then from there I started writing some other things. I did a book for a friend of mine, who's big into Star Trek. So I did like the history of the Enterprise and he really liked that. And then finally I wrote a---I'm sorry, I have to admit it. A fan fiction for a TV show I was watching. And then from there, I just, I was watching this show, another show from my past, Mike Hammer with Stacy Keach, and I really liked that show, and all those things just kind of clicked together and I've been doing it ever since.

Debbi (03:02): Oh my gosh. I had no idea that you wrote fan fiction. That's so cool.

James (03:06): I did one. I did one.

Debbi (03:08): One. Okay. I think that's awesome. I think that's really awesome. So the UrbanKnights series has a protagonist. Who's a former operative of the Defense Intelligence Agency. That's a really interesting sort of background for private eye to come from.

James (03:28): He started off. He pretty much mirrored my background until I figured he's me except cooler. And Jordan Noble started off as a missile launch officer at Minot like I did, but he had an event in his life that changed his trajectory. And I started off with the OSI, which is the Office of Special Investigation for the Air Force. It's kind of like the Air Force is FEI, but I wanted to make it a little bit more jazzy, a little cooler, you know, not so commonplace. So I'm looking at our first place, obviously the CIA, but man everybody's either ex-CIA or CIA. And at the time when I thought of using the DIA, it wasn't quite as well known in fiction. I mean, there are some characters. Denzel Washington's portrayal of the Equalizers from the DIA, but this was before that. So I thought that that was interesting because it's still connected the military background of Jordan. And it was a real life agency that, you know, not too many people have heard of.

Debbi (04:25): I was going to say did you have to do research to find out about that or was that from experience with them?

James (04:32): No, that was, that was all research. It was like I said, I started off with the CIA, but then it's just so trope, you know, everyone just pulls the CIA in there. So I started looking at other agencies and then seeing how the DIA is, does have officers and enlisted members, but they do mostly use civilians. But I thought, yeah, we could still put Jordan in there as an officer, so that still works.

He pretty much mirrored my background until I figured he's me except cooler. And Jordan Noble started off as a missile launch officer at Minot like I did, but he had an event in his life that changed his trajectory.

Debbi (04:56): I think that's really cool. I think it's cool that you're exploring a unique agency rather than going into the kind of almost cliche CIA at this point.

James (05:06): You get to that point where you go to the back of the book and you flip it over and either it says ex-CIA, you know, Joe Torres, or MI6 or ex-Navy Seal, you know, it's like, oh gosh, you know, let's make it a little different.

Debbi (05:20): Yeah. Yeah. I liked that a lot. How many books are there in the series so far?

James (05:26): So I'm working on the sixth book. But there are five books that are complete and the other ones that are going through the editing phase right now, and I'm already working on the seventh book, so that there are. It's an ongoing series, but they're individually, you can jump in at any point and not be lost. You don't necessarily have to read the previous one, but yeah, right now, I'm working on the seventh one and the sixth one is in pre-production as it were.

Debbi (05:54): That's cool. I was going to say you used the term pre-production. I like that because there is almost a cinematic quality to the, the writing itself.

James (06:03): Yes. I think one of the things, and this is one of the challenges I found or one of the things that I had to adapt my approach to was that the writing part is ... I think everyone has a story in them, whether it's a fictional story or something about their life, but translating that to page is a skill and then taking that product and then making it presentable to the public. That's an entirely different skill. And that's been a challenge for me. You know, getting those eyes on page as it were. It's getting people to acknowledge your work or just be aware of it. That is, that's quite a challenge. And there's a lot of agencies out there and a lot of individuals out there who have ... I'm helping other writers, you know. There's other, there's lots of programs out there that I've taken part of ... there's organizations on Facebook where people are helping each other.

I think everyone has a story in them, whether it's a fictional story or something about their life, but translating that to page is a skill and then taking that product and then making it presentable to the public. That's an entirely different skill.

James (06:56): So yeah, there is, it's not just, okay, the end. I'm done. I mean, there is that kind of like, okay, now we gotta go into, I guess we'll be like the publication or the marketing part of your book. And then from there, you, you know, you actually get some sales, so that's where I am now. And, you know, to that end, I'm talking to people like you, Debbi, to get, you know, get your readers involved, get your readers, get their eyeballs on my product, and possibly, you know, expand from there.

Debbi (07:27): Yeah. It's tough now. It's very hard to get visibility at all these days because there are so many books out there and there's so much to struggle with in terms of getting that visibility. But do you have a plan in terms of how many you would ultimately like to write for the series? Or are you just taking it book by book?

James (07:52): You know, yes. I mean, it's one of those kinds of things where it's like, the character will eventually hit a point where it's like, okay, she's doing the same thing over and over again. And right now Jordan Noah and his team have gone through some changes, there's some new characters being added. He's had some personal life change in his life. So that opens the opportunity for another chapter, but then it's like, okay, what happens after that? And then, I don't want to be where it's just endless books. A lot of it's going to have to depend on, you know, how successful the marketing is or how successfully people respond to it and what there's demand. And I mean, you know, they even killed off Sherlock Holmes and the demand for him to come back was so great that they, "Oh, I didn't really die off that cliff. It was, I just tricked you, Watson." So, you know, at this point in the career, it's just like, I have some stories in mind and, you know, if there was still demand then, you know, we would press on.

Debbi (08:56): How would you describe your books in terms of genre? Thriller? Action-adventure?

James (09:03): Thriller, action eventually. Yes. All that stuff. I mean, basically this is a detective type of novel. You know, something along the lines of, you know, movies like I already mentioned Shaft. There's some James Bond element given his former spy background. I'm thinking of stuff like 21 Bridges, the recent movie It's an action movie with an action book with a thriller aspect of it is that ticking clock that, you know, things that what's going to happen next. So, yeah, but it would definitely be that kind of feel to it, if it was a movie. So Hollywood, if you're listening, you know, that's what I'm going for. You know, Michael B. Jordan, maybe we can talk and we can get a, get a contract on.

Debbi (09:53): Excellent. Let's see....

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Cathi Stoler on the Crime Cafe podcast.

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Debbi (00:02): Hi everybody. My guest today writes mystery and suspense novels. Her latest novel and her giveaway book is BAR NONE from the Murder on the Rocks mystery series. A board member of Sisters in Crime, New York/Tri-State, MWA and the International Thriller Writers, she's also a founding member of Sirens of Suspense, a group that offers expertise and knowledge for aspiring crime writers. I'm pleased to have with me again, Cathi Stoler. Hi Cathi. It's great to have you on.

Cathi (02:27): Hi, Debbi. It's great to be here.

Debbi (02:32): Oh, well it's my pleasure. Believe me. And I'm just glad you're here and doing well I hope in New York?

Cathi (02:40): Yeah. You know, I mean like everyone else, it's just been a little ...

Debbi (02:45): Been a little off-putting?

Cathi (02:48): Yeah. Even just going outside, there's not the usual energy, you know, you feel it after a while. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Debbi (02:57): Mmm-Hmm. Yeah, it's strange times overall. Tell us a little about Jude Dillane. Am I saying that correctly? Jude Dillane? And the Murder on the Rocks series?

Cathi (03:14): Well Jude owns The Corner Lounge on 10th street and Avenue B on the Lower East Side. She seems to have a penchant for getting in trouble and involved in murders and mysteries. There's three books in the series. The one that was, both BAR NONE and LAST CALL came out pretty close together. The end of last year, one in July and one in November. So I'm working on the third one, it's called STRAIGHT UP and it will continue that character. And will also continue part of the story from LAST CALL, but she has a good pal Sully Thomas, Thomas "Sully" Sullivan. He's her landlord and her friend. She has good friends from before and they both sort of work together and help each other.

Debbi (04:12): So there are three books in the series so far, but you're working on the next one?

Cathi (04:17): I'm working on the third one. I'm almost finished with that. And then there will probably be a fourth.

Debbi (04:24): Got ya. Okay. So what's the third one called again?

Cathi (04:28): The third one is called STRAIGHT UP a Murder on the Rocks mystery. They will all have that tagline, same tagline.

Debbi (04:40): Yeah. What inspired you to write a mystery series set in a bar?

Cathi (04:45): Well, my husband was in the restaurant business for many, many years before he left that business, and I used to go visit him. He always worked close to where we lived and I would visit him at the bar, and I got to know all the people, the waiters, the waitresses, the cooks, and you know, the other staff. And it was just fun. You know, it was a fun kind of environment. He always said, Oh, he thought maybe he'd write a book someday, but I knew he was not going to really do that. So I just stole his idea. No murders ever took place at the bars where he worked or anyone involved in any, so.

[M]y husband was in the restaurant business for many, many years before he left that business, and I used to go visit him. He always worked close to where we lived and I would visit him at the bar, and I got to know all the people, the waiters, the waitresses, the cooks, and you know, the other staff. And it was just fun.

Debbi (05:29): But your husband's work basically inspired it?

Cathi (05:34): Yes. Yes. Well, from going there.

Debbi (05:40): I understand. Just kind of like the vibe of the bar scene, so to speak.

Cathi (05:47): Yeah. Everybody got to be like family, which is what I was trying to convey in these books that, you know, Jude and her bartenders and her friends and her customers, the close ones, they all get to know each other and be like family.

Debbi (06:04): That's really cool. Would you say your mysteries tend to lean more toward cozy or more snarky or more edgy? How would you describe them?

Cathi (06:18): Well, she's a very snarky character. That's part of her character. But I don't see them as cozy, although I think people, some people think they are like go halfway toward cozy. I see them more as just, you know mystery-suspense stories, really. You're not, these are not thrillers, but yes. And there's a lot of snark.

Well, she's a very snarky character. That's part of her character. But I don't see them as cozy, although I think people, some people think they are like go halfway toward cozy. I see them more as just, you know mystery-suspense stories, really.

Debbi (06:48): I like the idea of the bar scene as a family. That seems to be a kind of a good theme for settings in which a lot of people play a part.

Cathi (07:02): Yes. Because I mean, honestly, I don't know how they are now because well, besides everything being closed this last year, but it was like that wherever Paul worked we had, you know, close ties with some of the people that worked there. So it was nice. It was a nice environment. I used to, we used to bring our daughter there from when she was a baby to one of the places and she had a couple of play dates there and I would think, Oh my God, we're going to let my daughter play with her kid again, you know, [inaudible] Shirley Temples or something. And so it was a good environment. It wasn't a bad environment.

Debbi (07:47): Exactly. How would they compare to say, tone-wise, with the Laurel and Helen New York mysteries? I saw those listed and all I could think of was Laurel and Hardy. [laughs]

Cathi (08:03): These mysteries, the new ones are written in the first person. So everything we see is through Jude's point of view and through her attitude Helen and Laurel Helen is a PI and Laurel is a magazine editor, and they kind of, that's all in third person. So they're giving you an overview of the whole story from both of their perspectives, but I have them kind of in alternating chapters. So first it's one, then it's the other one. And that's how they solve the puzzle of the crimes that they are investigating. But those are out of print, unfortunately, right now. I have to figure out what I want to do with them. So.

Debbi (08:46): Well, you can always self-publish them.

Cathi (08:48): I can, I'm thinking of that. I may use one of those services to format them and then self-publish them.

Debbi (08:57): Hmm. Let's see. How do you choose which one to work on in terms of you---have like OUT OF SIGHT and that other one with Nick and ...

Cathi (09:09): Oh, yeah. And his pal, Marina. I couldn't do any more of those. I wrote a novella and then I wrote a novel and that was really fun, because he's a different kind of character, as well. He's a professional gambler, you know, sort of suave and cool, but he's like gets confused sometimes about like, what's really going on, although he's very smart and he helps to solve the crime. But I think I'm going to leave those alone for a while. I'm trying to figure out what to do with those two books, too. One is, one has gone out of print. The other one is still in print, but I don't know what I want to do about that, at the moment. I'm going to continue with this series to finish the third book. And then the fourth one, I was going to have I had a plot in mind, but I'm not sure that's going to be the plot. I might call that WHISKEY SOURED as the title. It depends on what I decide to write for it. It will have a bar theme, you know, title going across them.

He's a professional gambler, you know, sort of suave and cool, but he's like gets confused sometimes about like, what's really going on, although he's very smart and he helps to solve the crime.

Debbi (10:18): Just so you know, Joe Konrath did one called WHISKEY SOUR.

Cathi (10:23): Oh, really? I didn't know that.

Debbi (10:24): It's an, it's an older title, but yes, Joe Konrath, WHISKEY SOUR. His protagonist is, I believe, it's Jack Daniels is the name. Jacqueline Daniels. Anyway, a shout out to Joe Konrath there. Yeah. He writes really exciting stuff, too. Let's see. How did you decide which perspective to tell your stories from in each case?

Cathi (11:04): Well, because I wanted to in the, in the Laurel and Helen mysteries, I wanted to use two people. I thought that would be an interesting way. I had this idea about a female detective, I had seen an article a very long time ago about this woman who liked to go undercover and wear all these crazy disguises, and I thought, Oh, that would be like a fun detective to write. And then I thought, well, what if she gets involved with this other person who she knows, but she's a magazine editor and they work together. So that, that kind of came about that way. But For these books, I just thought the first person a more intimate kind of new would be better. You know, I'm not going to change the fourth one to be third person. It's, it's going to stay in the first person all the way through. And they're very different kinds of characters.

Debbi (12:03): Sounds like it. Yeah. Do you plan out the number of books you want to write for a series or are you just taking a book by book

Cathi (12:14): Right now, I'm taking it book-to-book. The other series was three and I thought that was good for that....

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Phillip Thompson on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

And, once again, we have a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (00:12): Hi everyone. My guest today is a crime novelist and short story writer. His work has appeared in such literary journals as O-Dark-Thirty, Near to the Knuckle, and The Dead Mule School of Southern Literature, a title I really love. And these are just a few. It's a pleasure to have with me for his second appearance on the Crime Cafe, crime writer, Phillip Thompson. Hi Phillip. How are you doing today?

Phillip (02:14): Good, Debbi, how are you?

Debbi (02:16): Not bad. Thanks. All things considered. We were just talking about 2020 and what a weird year it's been Have the holidays been good ones for you?

Phillip (02:27): They have, I mean, as good as any holiday can be in this year very low-key. It's been pretty good though.

Debbi (02:37): That's awesome. Do you make new year's resolutions? I'm not a new year's resolutions kind of person. I always believe that anytime you want to make a change, you can make it regardless of the time of the year, but in a sense this year seems like one of those years where people are really thinking about that kind of thing. How do you come out on this?

Phillip (03:00): You know, I, I don't think I ever have I used to have the, sort of the smart-alecky "my new year's resolution is to not make any new year's resolutions." But no, I don't. I kind of, I like your philosophy. If you need to make a change, you can make it, you know, on April the third, if you need to.

Debbi (03:19): Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Or maybe even April 1st, but really mean it.

Phillip (03:28): Right.

Debbi (03:28): And everybody will think you're kidding. I don't know.

Phillip (03:33): Well, then you get away with it, if you don't see it through.

Debbi (03:36): Then you have an excuse. Yeah. Wow. I didn't even think about that. A new trend. Fantastic. Let's see, the last time you were here, you released a second Colt Harper novel, I believe. OUTSIDE THE LAW? And now you have your third one out called OLD ANGER. What is this book about? Tell us about the story.

Phillip (04:02): Okay. It's, like you said, it's the third in the series and it's, this story is really, as the title might suggest it, it brings up a couple of old issues that have been hanging around, not just, not just for the characters, but for the place, which would of course be the Deep South. All the books take place in Mississippi. And it's really a story of, of the issues that come with Southern racism and the perceptions around that.

Debbi (04:40): Yes. What kind of a person is Colt Harper and what are your plans for him generally speaking?

Colt is kind of a guy who sees himself as a lawman. That's you know, it's his version of upholding the law has an awful lot to do with, with meting out justice. But I think he has a hard time seeing the difference between justice and revenge or, you know, redemption and revenge.

Phillip (04:49): Well, Colt is kind of a guy who sees himself as a lawman. That's you know, it's his version of upholding the law has an awful lot to do with, with meting out justice. But I think he has a hard time seeing the difference between justice and revenge or, you know, redemption and revenge. I think as much as he tries to, to think that he's this one particular type of lawman, who's upholding, to think that he himself is the law which we kind of get into a little bit in OLD ANGER. He's, he's so focused on what he thinks he is, that he's blind to some things you know, race being one of them, you know, he, he likes to perceive himself as a person who's color blind, but when you're dealing with race, especially if you've, you know, if you're dealing with race in a place like the Deep South, you know, you really get put to the test when you say, well, you know, I'm a color blind person, I see the law for what it is regardless of a person's race or background. But when you really get put to the test to that, and when you really have to confront that, you start to see a different version of yourself. As far as plans for him I'm currently writing the fourth book of the series and I'm just going to continue to do that, you know, figure out ways to put this guy into a situation that might make him uncomfortable then and see what happens.

Debbi (06:23): Mmm-Hmm. Yeah. To what extent does Colt ultimately really examine his underlying assumptions about race?

Phillip (06:35): He does, well, he doesn't have a choice In this book, he gets it put to him by the people that are closest to him. Mostly his deputy John Garver, who just happens to be black and his, the woman who is probably his best friend in his life, Rhonda Rains. It was a big part of the first book and a fairly big part of this one. She's also black and where he, you know, he doesn't really use it as an excuse. He's not one of these people that says I've gotten, I've got a lot of black friends, but it turns out that here's a white lawman in a place like Mississippi. And the two people that are closest to him are black. And now he's in the middle of this, you know, racial situation and the mirror is held up to himself. So he gets a, he gets a fairly good chance to examine himself in this particular story.

Debbi (07:38): I think that's a particularly timely topic right now, but it's something like not just due, but long overdue to be discussed. As you mentioned in your guest post, you're not the first person, of course, to ever write fiction about race relations. And you mentioned some authors and of course, TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD. Do you think the way we write about race relations has changed?

Phillip (08:10): I think it has I think the first time I actually noticed it well, and this is just, you know, of course my perspective, but I think the first time that I noticed a sort of different way of presenting race Southern race issues was when I read Steve Yarbrough,'s book, OXYGEN MAN, and then certainly Tom Franklin's CROOKED LETTER, CROOKED LETTER. And you know, and I think writers reflect their times. You know, when William Faulkner was writing about race, it was a completely different approach. And, you know, even TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD, which is one of the most beloved books in the country for good reason. But when look at it through a 2020 lens, you might read the book just a little bit differently. So yeah, I think we have changed the way we are writing about race. I hope so. Anyway, I think, I think the issue has changed and it's changed because more people are seeing it through different lenses.

Debbi (09:19): Yeah. I, I agree with you there. It's, it's very it's a little bit disturbing actually to read some of Raymond Chandler's older stuff, because the way black people are treated or, or discussed in some of those books is really offensive by today's standards. And yet here's a writer who endures, you know, but we kind of overlook that part. That was not so cool. That isn't so cool.

Phillip (09:50): Right. Right. Which I think is a danger unto itself.

Debbi (09:53): It can be, yeah. I mean, it's just so deeply ingrained.

Phillip (09:59): I think we, we let people off the hook when we say, well, you know, that was a different time and that was a different, you know, attitudes were different. Well, that may be, but the fact is it was wrong, then and it's wrong now. What has changed over time, I think is our, you know, as a society, has been our awareness you know, at least that's what I've seen. And there are people that would argue that, well, we haven't changed at all in, you know, 80 years. But I like to think that we have. We're not perfect yet, but we've at least made some progress,

Debbi (10:36): Well, we're certainly not perfect, but I'd like to think that we're capable of having an honest discussion about this kind of stuff. And, you know, just trying to establish some kind of way of connecting with each other. I don't know about you, but yeah. You currently have three books in the Colt Harper series. Do you plan to write more? And if so, how many would you like to write or do you have a plan for a number?

Phillip (11:10): I don't have a plan for a number. You know, if you asked me what my plan is, my plan is to write until I can't you know, as long as that is, and yes, I am going to just keep writing, you know, for as long as there are people who are willing to read the books, I'm going to stay with this particular cast of characters, because I like them now. I've spent, you know, a good 10, 11 years working with these characters. And I do like writing about them. I'm probably a third of the way through the next Colt Harper manuscript now. And I'm thoroughly enjoying that. That's a great thing about knowing your characters, you know, when you, when you live in their universe, they're talking to you more than you're talking to them, which is pretty fun.

Debbi (12:05): Yeah, I think that's true. Do you feel like you get to know your main character better as you write each book?

I didn't sit down and create like this huge entire dossier or, or history of this particular character. I had a general idea of what this person was like....

Debbi Mack interviews thriller writer Avanti Centrae on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

And, once again, we have a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (00:12): Hi everyone. My guest today is the best selling author of the VanOps thriller series. Her first in the series, The Lost Power has received several awards and upon its release was a Barnes & Noble bestseller. Solstice Shadows, also a Barnes & Noble bestseller after its release, as well as an Amazon bestseller, is her latest book. It's a pleasure to introduce my guest Avanti Centrae. Hi Avanti. Thank you for being here today.

Avanti (02:20): Yeah. Hi Debbi and everyone who's listening. I'm thrilled to be here to to chat a little bit more with an audience that enjoys crime as much as I do in the fiction sense, of course. Yes.

Debbi (02:33): Naturally, of course. Let's see, tell us about the VanOps series. You've been compared to authors like Dan Brown and Clive Cussler. So action packed might be a good word for it. Yes?

Avanti (02:48): Action packed. Yes. A lot of readers have said they're literally glued to the edge of their seat. I've had people tell me they are holding their breath, and that's fantastic. Yeah, the other two authors that I'm often compared to are James Rollins and Steve Berry. So it's smart pulp fiction. It's filled with intrigue and history and science and mystery kind of all wrapped up in a non-stop action package.

Debbi (03:18): Yeah, I was gonna say I started writing down what your book was like—the first one. And I wrote "like a travel guide with an adventure story, plus mysticism, history, artifact hunting, and spycraft."

Avanti (03:33): Pretty much encapsulates it. Yeah. I've always been an overachiever. Yeah. I've always been an overachiever. And yeah, I like to provide readers with, you know, their money's worth as I'm a reader, too. And I like books that are richly textured with characters that jump off the page, you know, and I've always enjoyed history, and traveling and cruising to, you know, places around the world and wanting to include all of that in my books.

Debbi (04:13): Well, you've done very well with that. I mean, you've done a great job because I was the same way. I was kind of on the edge of my seat, reading your first book there. And your protagonist is Maddy, who is an aikido expert. I thought that was really cool. What inspired you to create this particular character?

Avanti (04:35): Yeah, that's an insightful question, Debbi. And I also liked Erica Jensen in your yeah, I just read, I just read Damaged Goods and really enjoyed her, too. Maddy they, they both meditate actually. It was kind of interested to see that your character is dealing with some, you know, deep emotional stuff and uses meditation as a way to, to deal with that. And Maddy's got a little bit more of a pedestrian background than Erica does. So Maddy has been an app designer for her job. She was an almost Olympic athlete, so she's got some physical skills, and since high school she's enjoyed aikido. And the reason that I chose aikito is because I see a lot of books in our genre where the protagonist is almost callous, you know? Oh, bang bang. I had to shoot somebody again. Oh, well.

Avanti (05:36): Well, I wanted somebody that was more morally conflicted about having to use violence. And I thought what's a better conflict? Because great story's all about great conflict, right? So what's better than having somebody who is morally opposed to violence being shot at by Russian snipers? I thought that would be a wonderful setup, and it turned out really good. The theme of that whole first book is around you know, violence and force and what's appropriate to use, and what's not in our culture. So I also like having, you know, bigger themes in my work, too. That one was a fun one to explore.

I wanted somebody that was more morally conflicted about having to use violence. And I thought what's a better conflict? Because great story's all about great conflict, right? So what's better than having somebody who is morally opposed to violence being shot at by Russian snipers?

Debbi (06:21): Yeah. I mean, I love, love that idea there of using something like aikido, which does not encourage violence, but responds to it in a sense.

Avanti (06:32): Exactly.

Debbi (06:33): It uses the violence of somebody else against them. Isn't that how it works?

Avanti (06:38): Yes. I had the opportunity to study aikido for a little bit 20 or so years ago and was just fascinated because it uses the opponent's energy against themselves. So if, if you've got somebody attacking you know, other martial arts might attack back, right. But aikido is more about maybe turning and allowing the attacker to, you know, run into a car or, you know, they turn, and you're, you're able to you know, put them in an arm twist or something like that. To use their own energy, to bring them back into a nonviolent situation. So you're trying to stop them from their own violent thing that they're trying to accomplish. And so that just fascinated me. And there's been some aikido masters that are so good at that, at sensing the opponent's energy that they can just kind of step aside and then do like a one-finger pin. And it's almost magical. What like Steven Seagal is one of these, you know, umpteenth-level aikido masters. And it's, it's fascinating. I love doing the research to be able to see what these guys could do with energy.

I had the opportunity to study aikido for a little bit 20 or so years ago and was just fascinated because it uses the opponent's energy against themselves.

Debbi (07:58): Well, I think it's really cool because it just goes to show that women are capable of taking care of themselves.

Avanti (08:09): Absolutely. And I wanted to, you know, we've got, again in our genre, we have a number of situations where people have series, where there are strong women in there. And we're seeing more in kind of the FBI side of our genre, where you've got a lot of strong female protagonists, but in the action side of our genre, we have strong women, but often they're part of a team that's run by strong men. And I wanted to flip that dynamic a little bit and have a team where I had, you know, strong men, you know, love interest for Maddy and her twin brother, but I wanted her to stand on her own and be, you know, a, an integral part of the team. And so, you know, most people when they read it see Maddy as the primary protagonist and the two guys as the secondary protagonists. But I think different readers, you know, relate to different, you know, characters as is often the case. But yeah. I wanted, you know, a kick-ass female protagonist who could definitely take care of herself. Yeah.

[W]e have strong women, but often they're part of a team that's run by strong men. And I wanted to flip that dynamic a little bit and have a team where I had, you know, strong men, you know, a love interest for Maddy and her twin brother, but I wanted her to stand on her own and be, you know, an integral part of the team.

Debbi (09:17): I love it. Absolutely love it. So, I thought you did a great job of summing up Lost Power in your guest post, but for anyone who didn't read it, could you give a brief description of the story?

Avanti (09:34): Yeah. So I really enjoyed all the research for The Lost Power. And it's basically about Maddy Marshall, who's our aikido expert taking on a sniper, a Russian sniper, and they're racing to try to find Alexander the Great's mysterious Egyptian weapon that has been lost for a millennia. And, you know, you can imagine, gosh, you know, Alexander the Great and what he accomplished and what if he did have a weapon that he found while he was taking over Egypt that allowed him to do, you know, basically he commanded the entire known world at the time. And so I kind of take that idea of what if he did have this weapon and what if one of Maddy's ancestors found it back a thousand years ago and hid that weapon and then Maddy and Will are thrust into this situation where on a foggy Napa morning, they go to their father's place: a vineyard because he's called the family there and all of a sudden, shots ring out and their father is killed. And, with his dying breath, he tells them they have to go to an attorney in Sacramento and she gives them a letter that he had planned for which sets off this entire chain of events, where they quickly realize that they've been pulled in way over their heads, because Will's an engineer, Maddy's an app designer. And all of a sudden they're being chased by trained operatives from Russia.

Debbi (11:12): It's amazing. It's something else. It's a great story. Did you do a lot of research before you started writing or do you do the research as you're writing?

Avanti (11:23): I do both, Debbi. With The Lost Power, I had had the pleasure of traveling all over the world and pulled in a lot of that research that I had done in my earlier days when I had done a tremendous amount of traveling. So that fed my story and I'm a big outliner. And so, as I outline, I like to go through and think, think through the scenes, you know, I can see them in my head kind of, as I jot them down on paper. And I like to out, where are we going? You know,...

Debbi Mack interviews mystery writer Lindsey Richardson on the Crime Cafe podcast.

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And, once again, we have a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (00:02): Hi everyone. Our guest today describes herself as a fantasy author, or at least she started as a fantasy author. She's written a four-book series, the Magician Series, and has started another series. One that combines mystery and fantasy, which I think is really cool. Her latest book in that series, Clara and Daphne is set to release on December 6th, which means by the time you hear this, it should be out. So go out and get ready to buy. A fellow Marylander and cat lover, it's my pleasure to introduce our guest, Lindsey Richardson. It's so great to have you on. Thank you.

Lindsey (01:39): Thank you so much for having me.

Debbi (01:41): It's my pleasure. I think it's interesting that despite being a Nancy Drew fan as a child, you ended up writing fantasy.

Lindsey (01:51): Yeah.

Debbi (01:52): At first. What inspired you to write the Magician Series?

Lindsey (01:56): Well, I would say growing up, I was reading a lot of mystery and fantasy books. Like Tamora Pierce. She was a huge inspiration for me. I read so many of her books and I just found that I was always writing stories. And I was reading a lot of fantasy series as well. So I guess that kind of sparked this idea that, Hey, I could, you know, write a fantasy series of my own and see how that goes.

Debbi (02:26): Wow. When I think of fantasy, I think of world-building, you know, and it's like, you have to create this whole world. And what, what do you do exactly? How do you go about creating that world? Do you come up with the whole thing before you start writing or do you find yourself developing the world as you write?

Lindsey (02:51): I think I figure it out as I go. I'm not exactly very good at planning ahead. Especially at the beginning of my series, like my current series right now the one that's fantasy and mystery, that one, I kind of just figured out, because the entire world is fantasy. So I kind of just figured out as I went along building, you know, these islands that had magic in them and figuring out how their world was going to work with the characters.

I think I figure it out as I go. I'm not exactly very good at planning ahead. Especially at the beginning of my series, like my current series right now the one that's fantasy and mystery, that one, I kind of just figured out, because the entire world is fantasy.

Debbi (03:26): Can you tell me a little bit about the series? Let's, let's start with the magician series. You've got this series of books. There are four of them, correct? And each one has a different protagonist, but it's the same world and the same event taking place, correct? Yes. Yeah. White versus Black magician type thing or Dark magician.

Lindsey (03:50): Yeah. Yeah. So the Magician Series is fantasy with a little bit of historic fiction mixed in It's set back in Transylvania in the 1500s and each book has a different point of view from one of the five Dark magicians. And I kind of wanted to do a thing where we could see both the point of view from the Dark magicians, as well as what the White magicians were looking at to see it wasn't just black and white. Good versus evil. Like everyone had their own reason for being against the other.

So the Magician Series is fantasy with a little bit of historic fiction mixed in It's set back in Transylvania in the 1500s and each book has a different point of view from one of the five Dark magicians. And I kind of wanted to do a thing where we could see both the point of view from the Dark magicians, as well as what the White magicians were looking at to see it wasn't just black and white. Good versus evil.

Debbi (04:29): Yes. So there's a war taking place between the White and the Dark magicians, though?

Lindsey (04:35): Yes. Yeah. So the White magicians are mainly the ones that are accepted in society. They're considered to be the good magicians and then the Dark magicians kind of have this darker, less acceptable magic. And actually at the start of this series, their magic is deemed illegal by the King. And there's only five of them left alive. So their survival becomes very difficult as they figure out, you know how they're going to outlive everyone in this world.

Debbi (05:10): Yeah. Well, the way you, the way you describe it, I simply have to ask, have you ever read Good Omens by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett?

Lindsey (05:22): I don't think I have. No.

Debbi (05:25): Oh, my God. You should read that book. I love that book. I loved it so much. And your description of Dark magicians versus Light magicians made me think of it. Read everything you can by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett. I'm just going to say that.

Lindsey (05:44): I'll have to check that one out.

Debbi (05:45): They're brilliant. Both of them. Ah, may Terry Pratchett rest in peace. He was a wonderful writer. Let's see. So your new series then combines magic and mystery and you have one protagonist throughout that one, correct?

Lindsey (06:03): Yes. Well with the exception of this new book, Claire and Daphne, that's coming out. That one, I actually did split up into two point of views. So it actually starts with Daphne and then it switches over back to Clara, who's been the main character, the last two books.

Debbi (06:22): Hmm. Interesting. Tell us a little about the protagonists in the books and how you see their story arc developing over the series.

Lindsey (06:33): So I guess for my current series right now, Clara is like I said, that series was heavily inspired by like Nancy Drew. I liked the idea of every book kind of having a different mystery that she's forced to solve. And I would say, I probably have at least, well, I know I have at least one more book planned, possibly two. Just because, like I said, I didn't plan that far ahead. Originally it was just going to be a one and done kind of deal. And then at the end of the first book I realized, Oh wow, I have this whole world and all these characters that I could go so much further in depth with. So here we are three books later and I'm in another series, but it's been a lot of fun writing it.

So I guess for my current series right now, Clara is like I said, that series was heavily inspired by like Nancy Drew. I liked the idea of every book kind of having a different mystery that she's forced to solve.

Debbi (07:24): That's fantastic. What made you decide to take on a new series?

Lindsey (07:31): Well, I guess at the end of the Magician Series, you know, I wrote that for about four years and I, I had the idea for Clara and Claire and I knew I wanted to do something a little different from fantasy, but I didn't want to entirely jump away from that genre. So then I kind of mixed the two fantasy and mystery together and I was like, let's see how this goes. You know, I love detectives with like, or I'm sorry, I love stories with like women detectives and, and that sort of thing. So that kind of sparked the idea of what Clara would be doing in each book.

I had the idea for Clara and Claire and I knew I wanted to do something a little different from fantasy, but I didn't want to entirely jump away from that genre. So then I kind of mixed the two fantasy and mystery together and I was like, let's see how this goes.

Debbi (08:13): I see. How many books do you plan to write for that series? Or do you have a plan for how many books to write?

Lindsey (08:21): This one has at least one more. I just, so the third one's coming out this Sunday and then the fourth book I'm going to start in January and I still have to kind of figure out where I want Book Four to go, to see if there's going to be a fifth book or not. I guess there's just so many characters and so much going on in the series that I kind of don't want to stop writing it, but at the same time, I don't want to drag it along. So we'll see what happens, but at least one more book for right now.

Debbi (08:54): Well, that's great. I like your approach, you know, kind of taking things as they come in a way. There's a plan, but you can kind of adjust your plan depending.

Lindsey (09:05): Yeah.

Debbi (09:06): That's kind of the way I work a little bit. I tend to be a plotter by nature, but at the same time, I'm always thinking, where is this going to go? What writers have most inspired your work?

Lindsey (09:23): I would say again like Tamora Pierce and Caroline B. Cooney was another author I read a lot growing up. She does like fantasy and mystery books. And I remember reading so many of her books that I just really loved especially the mystery ones, because I thought it was so interesting. And I guess that kind of sparked you know, my interest in that genre, but and I would say John Green as well. I don't really write exactly like how he does, but I do really admire the way he writes. I just think it's so different than everybody else.

Debbi (10:05): Hmm. Yeah. I keep hearing about him and I keep wanting to read his books and let's see, what are you working on right now?

Lindsey (10:16): So I just finished NaNoWriMo, National Novel Writing Month. I finished that at 50,000 words, so I, I won,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime and thriller writer Dana Haynes on the Crime Cafe podcast.

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I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

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And, once again, we have a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (00:02): Hello everyone. My guest today is an award winning journalist who spent more than 20 years in Oregon newsrooms. I like that. He is not only a thriller novelist, but also a screenwriter. In fact, his first screenplay, an adaptation of his first thriller novel Crashers made the Nicholl Fellowship semifinals in 2005. That's pretty impressive. It's my great pleasure to introduce thriller author, screenwriter, and Pacific Northwest native, Dana Haynes. Hi Dana. Thanks for being here.

Dana (01:16): Hey, it's good to be here.

Debbi (01:18): I'm so glad you're with us. Oregon is just a beautiful state and Portland's an awesome town. Do you do a lot of signings at Powell's? You know, back when you could do signings?

Dana (01:31): Yes, we are incredibly fortunate to have many good independent bookstores in the Portland metropolitan area. We have several, so I will do one at the Powell's downtown or the Powell's in the suburbs or at Annie Bloom's. We are very, very fortunate to have this ring of independent bookstores that go from the coast up into the mountains.

Dana (01:49): And it's one of the blessings of being in Oregon, how many independent thriving, independent bookstores we have. Quick story. My wife and I went to Powell's the other day on a Saturday and everybody stood outside six feet apart and everybody had masks on, everybody was patient and they're on the phones. You finally got to go in. The lines inside were very, very long. Nobody was kvetching, nobody's complaining. The luxury of having a bookstore, a world-class bookstore like that in the heart of downtown is something we just don't ever kvetch about.

Debbi (02:18): I think that's awesome. That is so awesome. I love it. All of it. I'm interested in how you decided to branch out into writing thrillers from journalism to thrillers. What brought you from one to the other?

Dana (02:33): I'm not sure it was that order because my father was a huge fan of thrillers. And so when we were growing up, Dad would read books that he thought were exciting and terrific, and he burst into your bedroom and throw them on your bed and say, "You've got to read this!" My father was a high school basketball coach. They talk like that. Quick, you got to read this. And so early on I was reading Gunga Din and Beau Geste and The Four Feathers, and I was being brought up with those stories cause my dad thought they were incredibly cool. So when I was, this is a true story. When I was in high school, I thought I was either going to have a career in journalism, which was my first love or as a novelist writing the kind of stories my dad would read, and lo and behold, I'm doing them both. I'm the most fortunate guy in the whole world.

When I was in high school, I thought I was either going to have a career in journalism, which was my first love or as a novelist writing the kind of stories my dad would read, and lo and behold, I'm doing them both. I'm the most fortunate guy in the whole world.

Debbi (03:17): That's fantastic. That's really wonderful. And you're doing screenplays. At least one,

Dana (03:25): Not successfully. But they're great fun. They're really, really fun. I've had zero traction on them, but you know, whatever.

Debbi (03:30): Well, I understand that feeling Choosing to do screenplays, I sometimes wonder what the hell was I thinking, but what is Crashers about? Did you write it with the thought in mind of adapting it into a screenplay?

Dana (03:50): I did not. In about 1994, I read an article in The New Yorker magazine called "The Crash Detectives" by Jonathan Harr. And it was the story of the National Transportation Safety Board. Those people who put together crash teams called Crashers that would ... If an airplane falls out of the sky, these are the people get together to figure out why. And I remember reading the article and thinking, Oh my God, that's fantastic. What a wonderful thing to do. And somebody is going to write a great novel about that. Years passed, years passed, and nobody wrote it. And I kept thinking, Oh my God, what a great book. Great concept, I mean, so eventually around 1999, I decided, damn it, they're gonna make me write the bloody thing. So I started doing the research. I'm not a technically oriented person. So it took me a year to do the research into airplanes and a wings and engines. And then I decided it had to be an ensemble book. It was going to have fourteen protagonistic characters. And that was really a difficult thing to do, too. But I'm real proud of that book. That book is a book that I'm awfully, awfully proud of. Cause I got some real good compliments from the actual NTSB and some buy-ins.

I'm not a technically oriented person. So it took me a year to do the research into airplanes and a wings and engines. And then I decided it had to be an ensemble book. It was going to have fourteen protagonistic characters. And that was really a difficult thing to do, too. But I'm real proud of that book.

Debbi (04:59): Oh, my gosh. That's awesome. That's absolutely fantastic. Wow. Cause I have to say, I looked at the description and I thought, whoa, I want to read this. By the way, I love your poster back there. That's fantastic, too.

Dana (05:18): My friends at Blackstone are really good about doing promotions for their authors. And, by the way, this thing. I'm talking to you from my kitchen and I can assure you, my wife, Katie King does not normally have this up. This is up just for you. We'll put it down and put up in [inaudible].

Debbi (05:32): Well, it looks nice. I like it. I would put it in my kitchen, but then that's me. I'd put a poster like that up if I had something like that. Wow. Let's see. I thought the the concept for the series was interesting, because you said just now fourteen protagonist type characters?

Dana (05:55): I did two books of the NTSB series when I was with St. Martin's Press. There was that one and Breaking Point and I realized early on that they had to be ensemble books. And I realized after I'd written them how influenced I was by Michael Crichton's The Andromeda Strain. I went back and re-read it a few years ago. And I thought, Oh yeah, it's a whole bunch of people, government bureaucrats who come together with their different forms of extra expertise to solve a problem. And in the event of an airplane crash, you're talking about pilots and pathologists due to the autopsy engineers. You've got your cockpit voice recorder expert, your flight data recorder expert, all these people bring their own expertise with them. And it's very much it, it, it had to be an ensemble book. So that was, that was it was fun and challenging to do that one. And I'm really proud of those two books. The next two books at St. Martin's, I decided that was too difficult to keep up. So we took one of the characters from those two books and we gave her her own breakout books, the next two have like two protagonistic characters. And that was a much easier road to travel.

I did two books of the NTSB series when I was with St. Martin's Press. There was that one and Breaking Point and I realized early on that they had to be ensemble books. And I realized after I'd written them how influenced I was by Michael Crichton's The Andromeda Strain.

Debbi (07:01): To say the least, I mean, to start off a series tackling an ensemble. I mean, some people can't even write an ensemble show well, let alone an ensemble book, all of this stuff you need to put into it, you know?

Dana (07:21): I will say, I will say too, that my editor at St Martin's Press Keith Kahla had written these two books about airplane crashes and the investigations. And he took me to lunch one day in New York and said, "Dana, do you know where we sell books? Airports. You're not helping." So that was, we had to get rid of that theme.

Debbi (07:39): Oh my gosh. Wow. Other than the NTSB. Okay. What made, what inspired you to focus on somebody else? I mean, why did you choose the protagonists you ended up choosing for the later books in the series?

Dana (08:00): She was, she spoke to me Keith again was my editor and he said, I don't think we ought to do another ensemble book. I think we ought to do a single protagonist book. And I don't mind it being a breakout book from the, who is it going to be? And I said, it's going to be Daria. And he said, yup. That's who I think is going to be as well. Daria Gibron is a former Israeli soldier, a former Israeli spy. And what I really ... All the other protagonist characters have PhDs and master's degrees. And she's the person with the gun who actually runs toward the bad guys. And she was tremendous fun. I got to tell you, at my age, I grew up with Emma Peel of The Avengers and Modesty Blaise, that brilliant British comic strip. And so I was inculcated with tough, strong women protagonists when I was a little kid. The people who do the rescuing in these stories are the women. Right? And so I, when I had a chance to do to a single protagonist, I said, it's got to be Daria. And Keith said, yep. That's who I think it is, too. And her dialogue is fun to write....

Debbi Mack interviews crime and suspense writer Sandra Woffington on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

And, once again, we have a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (00:12): With me today is an author who, along with her Wine Valley Mystery series has written a standalone set in Saudi Arabia and a middle grade fantasy book, both of which have been shortlisted for awards. Her Wine Valley mysteries are also available in a box set that became a number one Amazon bestseller upon its release. That is amazing. I'm pleased to have with me today author Sandra Woffington. Hi, Sandra. How are you doing today?

Sandra (02:14): Hi, Debbi. I'm good. Thank you for inviting me to the Crime Cafe. I'm happy to be here. And I wanted to tell you, I love your intro music. It really sets the mood for crime.

Debbi (02:24): Thank you so much. Yeah, because I happened to find this music. I don't know if it was on the Mac or, or through YouTube, but I happened to find it and I thought, wow, that's just perfect.

Sandra (02:37): It is perfect.

Debbi (02:38): Well, thank you. Thank you very much. And thanks for being with us. At some point I'm going to sit down and figure out how many authors come on here who have traveled to interesting places because I seem to be collecting them. It was after you married that you moved to Saudi Arabia with your husband, correct?

Sandra (03:00): Yeah, he was already there. We actually ... Wild story, but I was on a tour of Europe for a month in, I was 21 and I met him in a disco in Lucerne, Switzerland. He was there on business from Saudi Arabia, even though he was American. And then I went back to California, he went back to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and then we got to know each other through letters and met once in New York, which was about halfway and then decided to marry. And then I moved to Saudi Arabia.

Debbi (03:32): Wow. That must've been quite a change for you. Now that first novel you worked on there. That was your first novel, and it was called Unveiling?

Sandra (03:45): Yes. I think what travel does for you at 21, it was, it was almost ironic because one of my favorite books growing up were the stories of One Thousand and One Arabian nights with Aladdin and Sinbad and magic, and also the wit. Outsmarting each other with the characters. And I felt like I landed there. It literally, when I was there, it was during the period of the oil boom around 1979. And it was still camels in the desert. I look at Riyadh today and it's a fast paced city, but it was quickly disappearing. And I was fortunate enough to meet Safeya Binzagr, who is a renown Saudi female artist. She actually has opened a school and a museum in Jiddah, which is on the coast. And she inspired that story because she was ... In her art, she tries to capture what she saw as her traditions and culture quickly disappearing.

Sandra (04:56): I saw that, too. There were beautiful mud, still mud houses, these fantastic mud buildings with balconies. And they were all being torn down and then European visions of beauty and marble, shiny marble were being put up. And when we took her out to see some ruins that she might be interested in painting, she took off her veils and I went, Whoa. And she had her niece with her. And it dawned on me that she's an artist and she needs her eyes. And yet she lives in this world where she has to veil. And that inspired my story. My character, Sara, is an artist and she is trying to also capture her traditions. And yet she's also rebelling against them, which I witnessed while I was there, too. That no matter where you go in the world, it changes over time. And so Saudi Arabia is a case in point. They now have one of the biggest women's universities in the world.

Debbi (06:09): It's fascinating. It's interesting that you chose this type of person as your protagonist, you're writing from a different perspective, a different cultural perspective. You said you did a lot of research on this. How much research did you do before you wrote the book?

Sandra (06:28): I will tell you, a fun thing I learned through the writing of this book is that you can also get lost in research. I spent probably a few years and I read original accounts of travelers. Sir Richard Burton was one. There were several others that actually traveled in Arabia from the 1800s forward. And, of course, living there helped. And I was so driven to write, write the story, and I was terrified at the same time, because as you mentioned to presume that I could write from the perspective and be authentic with a Saudi voice and a story was terrifying, but I really, really wanted to write it. And I remember thinking too, when I landed in Arabia, I wanted people to see the country and the struggles of what I saw because it was, it doesn't exist anymore.

I was so driven to write, write the story, and I was terrified at the same time, because as you mentioned to presume that I could write from the perspective and be authentic with a Saudi voice and a story was terrifying, but I really, really wanted to write it.

Sandra (07:25): It's already gone. So after I did a lot of research, I wrote it, I gutted it twice and I was prepared to throw it away. I just had to write it maybe for me, and if I couldn't be authentic, but I was very fortunate when I was finished that I looked for a reader and found Lina Karmouta, who was wonderful. She taught at the University of Riyadh for years. She earned her degree in Arabic, her master's degree in Arabic literature. So I could not have found a better reader. And she happened to be in California, not far from me. So she took on the task of reading it. And I was probably never more nervous about any book I'd ever written and she loved it. And that was, and she did help me. She pointed out a few things, but she was actually, she actually said, thank you for writing this. And I was just, whoa, that meant a lot. And it did come in as a semi- or an honorable mention for the Writer's Digest Self-Published Book Awards, which again was just, really made my day, too.

Debbi (08:43): That's fantastic. That's really great. You can't ask for much higher praise than that. Right?

Sandra (08:48): Right, right.

Debbi (08:51): You've also written the Warrior and Watchers Saga Series about seven adolescents. And each of them has some kind of physical challenge. I thought that was interesting. And they have the job of saving the world?

Sandra (09:07): They do. They have to stop the seven ancient gates of evil from opening. And that book was also inspired by a real individual. In teaching, I also teach middle school, at a small private school, Montessori school. I had in my class one year a young man who was high-functioning autistic. And I think it changed all of our worlds that year, including his. He had the first birthday party. My students were so nurturing of trying to, you know, just incorporate him in everything they did. He had his first birthday party, his mom told me with them, the whole class went, but I realized I like to use the word differently-abled and in all of my, you know, no matter. That's what I see in the world. And so not only did I want to create a book that was about diversity, but also one about how everybody needs heroes.

Sandra (10:13): And I don't think there are enough books out there. I've read a lot of literature, too, on the differently-abled types of books. And there are a lot about overcoming difficulties instead of about the uniqueness of individual people. So in this series, which is really fun, each one takes place in a different mythological underworld. The first one is Hades’ Tartarus, so it's the Greek mythology. The one I'm just finishing now, Evil Hears takes place in the Japanese and Chinese mythological world. And what's fun though, is each of these characters because of their unique abilities, it almost, it ends up being a bit of a superpower that it's something that they can do. For example, Amir is blind and in one scene he saves the day because that's a skill set that proves useful in that particular setting. That series is very dear to my heart.

The one I'm just finishing now, Evil Hears takes place in the Japanese and Chinese mythological world. And what's fun though, is each of these characters because of their unique abilities, it almost, it ends up being a bit of a superpower that it's something that they can do. For example, Amir is blind and in one scene he saves the day because that's a skill set that proves useful in that particular setting. That series is very dear to my heart.

Debbi (11:19): Well, it just sounds wonderful, because you know, it really emphasizes how, just because you lack one ability doesn't mean you can't make up for it with others.

Sandra (11:31): Exactly. My student, I still the same student. I still tutor him occasionally. And he's now in junior college, so yes, we can. All, we all have, we're all a part of the world. We all have skill sets we can use.

Debbi (11:46): I love that. So what prompted you to write crime novels set in the Wine Valley?

Sandra (11:54): Yeah, so I love murder mysteries for one thing. I've grown up on, you know, all of Agatha Christie. Christie's Poirot, Midsummer Murders, you name it. If there's a murder, Murder,...