The Crime Cafe

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Emilya Nawmark.

Check out our interview to learn more about her series set in the semi-mythical town of Sylvan.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a PDF transcript of the interview!

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today studied art and illustrated books before she started writing them. She is a web developer and a designer, an illustrator and artist, and a writer of psychological thrillers, crime and suspense. I'm pleased to have with me today my guest Emilya Naymark. Did I say that correctly, Emilya?

Emilya: Yes. Perfect.

Debbi: Wonderful. I was going to ask you about that and I forgot, of course. Thanks for being here today. I really appreciate it.

Emilya: Yeah. Thank you for having me. I'm just thrilled

Debbi: Certainly. Yeah, certainly. I have to commend you on your guest post. I mean, it just evoked the feeling of being there in upstate New York. I've been there and I've almost drowned there myself.

Emilya: I know. I was amazed. I actually listened to your collection of near-death experiences. I was like, oh my God.

Debbi: It is rather astonishing that I'm alive, I have to tell you. Behind the Lie is the second book in your Sylvan series, correct?

Emilya: Yes. Correct. Yeah.

Debbi: And Sylvan is the name of the town where the series takes place, right?

Emilya: Correct.

Debbi: I thought that was very interesting. Tell us about your protagonist Laney Bird, and what inspired you to write the series.

Emilya: First, I want to talk a little bit about Sylvan. Sylvan is a made-up name, but it's for a very real place. I basically set both novels in the town where I live. The street where my characters live, when I write it, I imagine the street where I live. I look out the window and I describe the houses that I see and the roads that I see. And when I write about neighboring towns, I actually use their real names. When my characters move around, they use real highways and everything.

Laney is also similarly a bit of a hybrid. She used to be an NYPD undercover detective before the first book begins. So, before the first book begins, that's what she does, and she works a Russian mafia racketeering case that goes really, really bad. She quits the NYPD. At the same time, her husband, who she loves crazily, leaves her and leaves her in charge of their 10-year-old kid who's not an easy child. And so basically before even the series begins, she's kind of in this place where everything she ever worked for, everything she ever wanted, everyone she ever loved is gone and she has to rebuild her life, which she begins to do, and she has to rebuild herself.

When my characters move around, they use real highways and everything.

Laney is also similarly a bit of a hybrid. She used to be an NYPD undercover detective before the first book begins.

So, by the time the second book begins, Behind the Lie, she's beginning to sort of find a foothold in a new life. At this point, she's a private investigator so she's kind of moved on a little bit since the first book and she loves doing that work. She loves being an investigator. She loves the detective, the cerebral part of it, but she's also very, very good at … she kind of has the gift of gab. She can convince people of anything and she can get people to open up to her, which served her very well when she worked undercover. She still continues to use those skills in her new life.

The second book begins with a gigantic block party that goes very, very bad. There's a shooting.

The second book begins with a gigantic block party that goes very, very bad. There's a shooting. There's a ...

Debbi: It's a mess.

Emilya: It's a mess. There's arson. There are all kinds of stuff that happens and a couple people go missing, including the one friend that she made in this new life where she's kind of learning how to trust human beings and all of a sudden, the one friend she has is gone and she begins to realize that even this one person that she has grown to really, really like and trust had this gigantic secret in her life that basically exploded that night.

Debbi: Wow! It's really something. I mean, that beginning really just kind of hits you with everything that's going on. The fires, the gunfire, it's something else. It really pulls you right in. I'm interested in how you developed her backstory. How much did you flesh out the backstory before you started the series?

Emilya: Good question. I knew that she was going to be working a racketeering case because my husband was an NYPD detective, and he was an undercover and he worked a racketeering case. And I thought, why do I need to invent anything? All I have to do is just … I have a crime right here and somebody who worked that crime. He can tell me all about it. So that part of it is kind of was ready-made, kind of came along. He didn't work with the Russian mob. He worked with a different mob, but I'm Russian and being Russian gave me enough of a confidence to write about Russians in the mob, even though I don't know any Russian mobsters, but I figured at least I could write about the culture and that was a lot of fun.

Debbi: Wow! You're …. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Emilya: No, no. So that was that. And then her family, I guess I'm just very fascinated about writing about women, and women within families and women facing sort of life challenges and professional challenges while still having all these—I don't even know if I'm going to say they're intrinsic feelings or society-imposed feelings —but whatever it is, I think we can all agree that women have different pressures on them in our society than men do and it combines everything. It combines work, it combines life, it combines children, family. Whatever it is you've got, it's different. So, I knew that that was going to be what I would be writing about.

I think we can all agree that women have different pressures on them in our society than men do and it combines everything. It combines work, it combines life, it combines children, family. Whatever it is you've got, it's different.

Debbi: That's really interesting. Really, really interesting. I love that, your comment there. And I also think it's great that you have such a wonderful inside source there with your husband being a detective.

Emilya: Yeah.

Debbi: Sounds like you yourself have some interesting background in terms of where you've lived and all of that.

Emilya: Yeah. Well, in my career, I'm in IT, which means that I basically stare at a screen all day long. So, I had to mine my background for more interesting things to write about than how to code.

Debbi: Well, it's still great what you're doing because knowing code is a really important skill these days.

Emilya: Yeah. Thank you.

Debbi: What made you focus on psychological thrillers as opposed to calling yourself say a private eye writer?

Emilya: Well, I think it just goes back to the fact that even though I write genre, I'm much more interested in characters than what is … I think there's maybe a misconception that genre writing is not as focused on characters, but I think especially over the past decade, it has become much, much more character-centric. And I love not just writing about some crazy crime, I love to figure out why a person wanted to commit the crime. I'm not as interested in writing about a criminal just because they're a criminal. I want to find out how what you would consider to be a normal person leading a regular life with a job and a family becomes a criminal. What happens? That makes it very interesting for me.

I think there's maybe a misconception that genre writing is not as focused on characters, but I think especially over the past decade, it has become much, much more character-centric.

Debbi: That's a great question too. You do write beautifully about upstate New York. Apart from almost drowning there, what is it that interests you in particular about the place?

Emilya: Well, it is beautiful and I really just react just being around all the green stuff and going hiking. I just love it. But aside from that, there's something incredibly interesting about upstate New York, because it has such a rich history in the country. A big chunk of the Revolutionary War was fought really within like a 12-mile radius of where I live....

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Robert McCaw.

Check out our interview to learn more about his Hawaiian crime thriller series and meet the author.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a PDF transcript of the interview!

Debbi: Hi, everyone. Our guest today has both a military and legal background, having served as a US Army Lieutenant, and a partner in a major international law firm. He's the author of four books in the Koa Kane Hawaiian Mystery series, and is giving away copies of the latest book Treachery Times Two to two lucky winners. For details on how to enter the giveaway, check out his guest post on my blog at debbimack.com. It's my pleasure to introduce my guest, Robert McCaw. Hi, Robert. I'm so glad you could be here today.

Robert: Well, thank you for having me and thank you for all the people who are listening

Debbi: Well, thank you for being here and I'm really glad to have you on. Your book is very interesting. The way you paint the Hawaiian Islands is interesting in the mysteries, but I wanted to ask you. As you grew up in a military family, you must have traveled a whole lot, correct?

Robert: Twelve schools in 12 grades.

Debbi: Oh my gosh! Isn't that...? Wow! I know something of what that's like having traveled a lot myself when I was growing up, but how did you end up … Is that how you ended up practicing international law?

Robert: Well, actually there's a story about that. I was an Army lieutenant in Korea. I was called into the camp commander's office. He handed me this big thick purple book, and he said “I’ve just appointed you the prosecutor in a court martial.” This was back in the days when in the special court martial, neither the prosecutor nor the defense counsel had to have any legal training. The only rule was that the defense counsel had to have at least as much legal training as the prosecutor, which meant that both could have none. So, I investigated this case. I was up against a member of the Pennsylvania Bar who was the defense counsel. I lost all the motions but I finally said to the judge who’s the panel, I said, why don't you just hear the facts before you decide all these questions. I put on the facts and the guy was convicted.

My father was a military lawyer and I wrote to him, and I said, you know, all this legal hocus-pocus you've been talking about at the dinner table all these years, it's kind of fun. Maybe I ought to go to law school. And my father wrote back by return mail. He said that wasn't a half bad idea, and that under the Soldiers' and Sailors' Relief Act, I could claim their residence as my residence and I could therefore go to the University of Virginia as an in-state student. All I had to do was to pay my income taxes. P.S. A return made out for your income as a second lieutenant is enclosed and vote by absentee ballot. P.S. P.S. One is in the mail to you. You don't think my father had been waiting for that opportunity?

Debbi: My goodness gracious. He had it all figured out in his head. How did you end up writing about Hawaii? What sparked your interest in the place?

Robert: I went out to Hawaii in the '80s, actually to an American Bar Council meeting in Honolulu and afterward went over to the big island, the island of Hawaii and I fell in love with the place. I mean, there was something just magical about it. I began to do research. I went back over and over and over again. I traveled the back roads. I talked to a lot of Hawaiians. We "talked story", which is the local language, and I learned about the very unique history that this special place has with the United States. And I felt compelled to tell others, to share my perception of this wonderful place, but how?

I went out to Hawaii in the '80s, actually to an American Bar Council meeting in Honolulu and afterward went over to the big island, the island of Hawaii and I fell in love with the place. I mean, there was something just magical about it.

I'd always been a mystery lover. My legal career, which was in litigation and criminal law, was about digging out facts. Was a lot like being a detective, and I sort of merged those with the love of Hawaii, and I decided I'm going to tell this story through a mystery-murder, and that's the way it got started.

Debbi: Wow, that's really cool. I'm often impressed with the way people will pick up on an area, a locality, where they're not even necessarily located and get so interested in it, they’ll do a lot of research and become almost like residents. Do you feel kind of like a quasi-resident of Hawaii?

Robert: Well, I actually was a resident of Hawaii part-time for about 20 years. We built a house out there and lived out there off and on while I was practicing. I had a very busy legal practice. That's why it took me 20 years to finish the first book.

Debbi: I can appreciate that. Oh, my goodness. And what caused you to tell your stories through this particular protagonist? Tell us a little about your protagonist. He's interesting.

Robert: Well, I wanted somebody who had some unique experience and I wanted it tied to him in a variety of different ways. In practice, I encountered a large number of cases that demonstrated to me the strength of the human compulsion to cover up, and sometimes we cover up our tiny little flaws that we don't want other people to know about, and sometimes we cover up really big things. My protagonist wound up in a fight as an 18-year-old with his father's nemesis and in the course of the fight killed the man, and he decided instead of confessing and coming forward that he would cover up the crime by disguising it as a suicide. It occurred in a remote cabin. There were lots of reasons why suicide could be believable and he got away with it, but it colors everything he does. He experiences guilt. He feels this need to provide recompense. It motivates him to pursue killers and it gives him a criminal's inside look at how criminals think, which adds to his abilities, to his perceptions as a detective. You put all of those pieces together, and I thought this really works as a detective.

In practice, I encountered a large number of cases that demonstrated to me the strength of the human compulsion to cover up, and sometimes we cover up our tiny little flaws that we don't want other people to know about, and sometimes we cover up really big things.

Debbi: This is a fascinating example also of how you can incorporate your previous work into fiction, knowing something about actual criminal law practice.

Robert: Absolutely. Actually, one of the things I'm kind of fond of saying when I'm asked about research is that life is research for a novelist. I have incorporated pieces of characters that I've met over the years of both Hawaiian and Haole - which is means westerner or non-Hawaiian—prosecutors, judges. One of my co-characters in the book is Zeke Brown, who is the Hawaii prosecutor. He becomes a foil in many ways for Koa and allows me to get into all of the legal stuff—the search warrants, the hearings, the debt/bail issues, all of those kinds of things, which gives me a chance to tell part of my story.

He experiences guilt. He feels this need to provide recompense. It motivates him to pursue killers and it gives him a criminal's inside look at how criminals think, which adds to his abilities, to his perceptions as a detective.

Debbi: Hopefully you avoid the courtroom scenes, right?

Robert: Well yes, but on occasion, the courtroom scene can be fun. I'm not of the view that you can build a whole book around one, but they are fun sometimes.

Debbi: Some people are better at it than others. Michael Connelly manages, but I can't. I just can't seem to go there.

Robert: You know, there are all these little techniques that prosecutors, judges, defense counsel use, and when you work those in, it becomes more interesting.

Debbi: True, true. Very true. Is there a kind of progression to your protagonist story? Do you have a plan for the series in terms of where your protagonist will end up and how many books you will write?

Robert: Well, there are four books now. Each are standalone mysteries. You don't have to read them in any particular order. There is a fifth book that's on the way. Where it goes from here, I don't know. I've also thought about taking some of my New York and Was

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Jennifer Graeser Dornbush.

Check out our interview to learn more about her fiction and how she got into screenwriting.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a PDF transcript of the interview!

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today is a screenwriter, author, speaker, and forensic specialist. Along with her crime fiction, she's published a book on forensics called Forensic Speak: How to Write Realistic Crime Dramas. That's what we need—more realism, yeah. She has also developed film and TV projects with Lifetime TV, Echo Lake, and many other producers. She's consulted on forensics with writers on shows like Bull, Hawaii Five-O, Leverage and other shows. It's my pleasure to introduce my guest, Jennifer Dornbush. Hi, Jennifer. How are you doing?

Jennifer: Hello. I'm very well. Oh, I'm little sick as we just mentioned, but I'm fine. Everything will be fine.

Debbi: But otherwise, you're fine.

Jennifer: Everything will be just fine.

Debbi: It will all work out perfectly. It will all be just fine.

Jennifer: In the scope of things, I am great.

Debbi: As my sister likes to say, what could possibly go wrong? Anyway, you do so many things, it's hard to know what to ask you about first, but tell us about your series, the one featuring Emily Hartford. What are your stories about?

Jennifer: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, this is my Coroner’s Daughter mystery series. There are two books that are actually published live and out there, and there are three more on the way. Just recently signed a three-book deal with Blackstone Publishing, and so the next one will be coming early 2023. Basically, they feature Dr. Emily Hartford who's a young, up-and-coming doctor in Chicago. She's also the daughter of a coroner who left her home when she was a teenager due to tragic circumstances, which I will not reveal cause that's part of a big storyline in the book, but she is suddenly called back to her hometown because her father has had a heart attack and she's been estranged from him for 10 years. And so, it's kind of about her returning back and sort of stepping into his shoes, basically doing death investigations in a way she never expected for her life to turn in that direction. She never expected to come back home, so she's basically trying to run murder mysteries while also contemplating her medical career in the big city and that is her story.

Debbi: Is the first book The Coroner?

Jennifer: The first book is The Coroner. The second book is Secret Remains and the whole series is called The Coroner’s Daughter.

Debbi: Right, because I just started reading the first one and I was pulled right in actually by the scenario.

Jennifer: Thank you.

Debbi: Which she has to go do this surgery and she seems so nervous.

Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, yeah. She's really this brilliant surgeon and has just gotten engaged. Has this great fiancé, but then there's this hometown sweetheart that's sort of the love that got away. So yes, emotionally too, it's going to be a series about her being really torn between two places and helping people in the surgery room or helping solve mysteries.

Debbi: Wow. That's excellent. it sounds like you have a plan for this series. You've got books 3 to 5 planned to be released starting next year. Is there a story arc that works its way through the series?

She's really this brilliant surgeon and has just gotten engaged. Has this great fiancé, but then there's this hometown sweetheart that's sort of the love that got away.

Jennifer: There will be, absolutely cause every book will be its own murder mystery of course and she gets pulled in in various ways into these mysteries and why she has to work on them. But then there's also a really strong, emotional, just kind of personal arc of her. It's the story about a woman trying to find out who she is again, cause when she left her family in her hometown at 15, 16, she was one person and she has to find that person again. Who is the real Emily and where does she belong? Does she belong in Chicago? Does she belong in this small town, this area, doing the things she sort of grew up doing alongside her father that she loved? Does she marry the cool surgeon from Chicago? Does she marry the really awesome detective hometown hero kind of person?

So yes, emotionally too, it's going to be a series about her being really torn between two places and helping people in the surgery room or helping solve mysteries.

It's really about her too. I think there's that point in all of our lives, because when we meet her, she's like 27, 28, 29. She's kind of on that cusp where we all kind of look back and say, okay, what? Who really am I? What am I doing with my life? How am I going to shape my life from here on out? And so, she's at that point in her life where it's like who am I? What am I going to do with all this? She has this great toolbox of skills, and I think a lot of us are fortunate enough to be faced with that when we have so many amazing things and opportunities and choices we could do, but what is the best thing for us to do? How are we going to make the most impact on the world while also fulfilling our purpose and our soul?

Debbi: That's great. It sounds almost like you have a great concept here for a television show, frankly.

Jennifer: I hope so. We're working on it. I was contracted last year with Lifetime TV to develop the first two books as movies. They're doing this thing that they call a movie wheel, which is almost like a Movie of the Week. It's like a series of movies, and so we're writing the first two right now. We've written them and we're kind of waiting to hear now from Lifetime if they're going to go ahead with them and what that looks like, and so we're kind of in a "fingers crossed" moment.

They're doing this thing that they call a movie wheel, which is almost like a Movie of the Week. It's like a series of movies, and so we're writing the first two right now.

Debbi: Oh wow. It's that production hell period?

Jennifer: Gosh, yes. That pre-production or development hell. That's what we're in...

Debbi: Development hell. That's it.

Jennifer: That's what we're in.

Debbi: Thank you.

Jennifer: Development purgatory!

Debbi: Exactly. Yes. Oh, I love those terms.

Jennifer: Oh goodness.

Debbi: The whole idea of hell or purgatory going along with all this stuff.

Jennifer: I think it's been more like purgatory. It's actually been a really great experience working with Lifetime and the producers, and now it's just like we've delivered and we're waiting to get the green light, so...

Debbi: Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. How did you end up writing screenplays? I understand you wrote them before you wrote novels.

Jennifer: I've always been a writer. I always knew I was going to be a writer since I was a kid, but when I was in college, I really started to study in Hollywood and really learn, understand the craft of film and TV making and then kind of ran away from it for a while. Came back to it 10 years later and moved to LA, dove in, really started to study the screenwriting craft, so that's kind of where my first truly trained writing experience comes from. I love the medium of screenwriting. I really do. It really sharpens you as a writer. It really makes you think through a story and plot and character. And then of course you have to be really succinct writer. It's funny, cause as a novelist, it's always about how many words, the more words, the more words, the more pages and as a screenwriter, it's the opposite. We can only have a hundred pages. It's always about cutting so it's really interesting how it exercises two parts of the brain. I love them both, but my first 15 plus years I spent writing screenplays.

I love the medium of screenwriting. I really do. It really sharpens you as a writer. It really makes you think through a story and plot and character. And then of course you have to be really succinct writer.

Debbi: I think it's great training for writing the novels, frankly, because you really learn about how to create characters and believable dialogue and what's needed and what isn't. I mean, as far as novels go, you can just expand on what you've got after you've got the screenplay.

Jennifer: Right, right. It's so true....

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Ellery Kane.

Check out our interview to learn more about her work in forensic psychology and her fiction.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here's a PDF transcript of the interview!

Debbi: Hi everyone. Before I introduce our first guest of 2022, I just want to say thank you to Lanny Larcinese—I hope I pronounced that right—for becoming our first new patron of the new year. Thank you so much. And our first guest for 2022 is a forensic psychologist by day and novelist by night. She was one of 10 semi-finalists in the James Patterson co-author competition. A Texan at heart, she now lives in the beautiful San Francisco Bay area. It's my pleasure to introduce my guest Ellery Kane. Hi Ellery. Thanks for being here today.

Ellery: Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I'm looking forward to our chat.

Debbi: Me too. Yeah, I've been. I will say this. We have something in common. We've both been to prisons to visit inmates for interviews for different reasons.

Ellery: Okay.

Debbi: I was an attorney at one time and had to go visit somebody in a prison.

Ellery: Oh, were you? I had no idea you were an attorney, so you know a little bit about how prisons are a whole...another world

Debbi: They sure are. Yeah, and kind of scary when you first walk into them.

Ellery: Absolutely. Can be a real culture shock for somebody that's never been in a prison before.

Debbi: Absolutely. For someone who doesn't know, what is your role as a forensic psychologist? What is it that you do?

Ellery: A forensic psychologist is a psychologist that has anything to do with the law, so it's really about the intersection of psychology and the law, and forensic psychologists do a lot of different things. Usually in the popular media, you think of people like Alex Cross or Clarice Starling, but forensic psychologists do a lot of different things. They can be involved in things like child custody cases or in determination of disability. What I do specifically is violence risk assessment, so I work for the Board of Parole Hearings in California, and I assess long-term inmates who have been in prison for many years, most of them for very serious crimes like murder or other violent offenses, and they're coming up for their parole hearing. My job is to assess their risk for violence to help the parole board make a decision about their release.

Debbi: As a forensic psychologist, how do you feel about the prison system and how well they're doing in terms of ...?

Ellery: Well, that could be a whole dissertation. I think that the area that I most focus on in terms of what's relevant for psychologists is rehabilitation, and there are a lot of great treatment programs in prison. Unfortunately, not all the prisons have access to the same kinds of treatment, so that means that not all the inmates will have access to the same kinds of treatment, and it can be a real issue for inmates that have specific problems like sex offenders. There's not a lot of great programming for them, so they do a good job in some areas, but other areas there certainly still needs to be some growth and some attention because one of the main goals of incarceration is rehabilitation. It's not just about punishment. And that's one of the things that I'm looking for is to see that somebody has changed and that can be really hard to do if you don't have access to treatment.

Debbi: Yes, exactly. Before we talk about your forensic pathology books, I'd like to ask you about some of your other work, your previous work. I saw this whole back list that you have. The Legacy series—that’s a trilogy and a prequel, right?

Ellery: Yes.

Debbi: Tell us a little about that.

Ellery: The Legacy series is actually the first set of books that I wrote when I first got back into writing. For as long as I can remember, I've always been a writer and I do a lot of writing for my day job as well. I grew up writing short stories and I always thought in my mind, someday I'm going to write a novel, but it sort of got pushed to the wayside with all of my day job duties and the amount of writing that I have to do for that, which is quite extensive. So finally in 2014 I decided this is the time. I'm not going to put it off any longer. I'm just start writing. And I actually signed up for a writing course that I ended up never taking, because I just started writing Legacy, which was the first book, and it just flowed, unlike any book has flowed since then, I'll be honest. That was the easiest one to write, and I wrote it in about six weeks and that series just came pretty easily and quickly. So those books were published in 2014, 2015, 2016, around that timeframe.

It's a young adult series, set in a dystopian world and it also involve psychology and forensic psychology in a way, because the main issue is that society has really become addicted to emotion-altering medications and they have had a big consequence on the world. The series is set at that time. It's set in 2041 and I think it involves a lot of my day job as well. So, all of my books have been inspired by my day job. I completed that series and then actually decided to take a turn towards thrillers, and that's my other series that I have ongoing, which is the Doctors of Darkness series.

Debbi: Right. Yeah. So I think that's fascinating. I love that in the Legacy series, you have this female, basically action protagonist, kind of like an adventure protagonist in the dystopian world. Did you have to spend a lot of time? I mean you draw on your background, but it seems like there's some world building you'd have to do as well. Is that something that you really worked on?

Ellery: Yeah, absolutely. I think that was one of the big ... I think that's always a challenge when you're writing a dystopian novel is really setting up the world and building the world. I wrote the first book and honestly, I intended it just to be that, just to be a single standalone book. But I was working with an editor at the time and she said, I think you should keep going, and so I ended up continuing on. And as I continued writing the second book and the third book, and then the prequel, I built the world even more than I had ever intended and it became a much bigger story and almost a saga that I never really pictured from the beginning, but I'm so that I did continue on, because I think it's great to have those. That second and third book really round out the main character and you get to know all the characters so much better.

Debbi: That's fantastic. It's almost as if you started out with that world built in your head but not on the page necessarily, but it came to you as you wrote the series.

Ellery: Yes, and it drew a lot on my psychology background because I was talking about emotion-altering medications, and I made up some different medications in the books. Things that you would take to help you experience no anxiety whatsoever, or to just experience extreme happiness. And in a way, these aren't so different than the actual medications that we have available, that psychiatrists prescribed. So, I was kind of drawing on that idea of the way that we oftentimes I see in society today. We are seeking kind of a quick fix. We don't really want to address what's underlying our problems and our emotions, but we just want to fix them and cover over them. So that's a lot of what the books are about. It's about carrying that idea to the extreme and what would happen if we really could just take a pill and our anxiety would just disappear, or we could just feel happy.

I made up some different medications in the books. Things that you would take to help you experience no anxiety whatsoever, or to just experience extreme happiness. And in a way, these aren't so different than the actual medications that we have available, that psychiatrists prescribed.

Debbi: Wow. I really hear everything you're saying. That's fantastic. I also love that the covers of those books have pictures of the Golden Gate Bridge on them. That's like a continuing theme. I take it, is San Francisco like another character in your books?

Ellery: It is, yes. And especially in that series. All of those books are set in San Francisco at some of the landmarks that you really think of when you think of San Francisco. So,...

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer Rod Sadler.

Check out his thoughts about the upcoming release on parole of a convicted serial killer.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Download a PDF copy of the interview here.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My final guest of 2021 had a 30-year career in law enforcement before turning his hand to writing true crime. He has three books out: To Hell I Must Go: The True Story of Michigan's Lizzie Borden, A Slayer Waits: The true story of a Michigan double murder, and his latest, Killing Women. I'm pleased to introduce my guest, Rod Sadler. Hi Rod. How are you doing today?

[01:34] Rod: Hello, Debbi. Thank you so much for having me. I am doing just great and I have really been looking forward to this.

[01:40] Debbi: Fantastic. Well, I have to tell you, your guest post. I really appreciate your being here, first of all, talking to us. Your guest post was most interesting, I have to say. I would think having an actual pen pal, if you'll excuse the pun, who is a serial killer would be interesting.

[02:02] Rod: Yeah. And I will tell you, it's much less than a pen pal. I guess it was for a short time, but when the first letter arrived—actually just to take a short side note here, if you're ever going to start a letter to a serial killer, let me give

you a piece of advice, and this is directly from my wife. Do it with someone else's return address. She was less than pleased when we started getting letters from him, so...

[02:33] Debbi: I can easily imagine. I can just imagine. What drew you to writing true crime in general? And the reason I

ask is that there are so many police officers that I've interviewed and some of them write crime fiction and some of them write true crime. How did you pick true crime? What drew to that as opposed to fiction?

[03:02] Rod: Well, it actually started as a genealogy project back in—oh my gosh—early in my career. I became a police officer in the early 80s and I worked for a campus police department. I'll try to make this short because I can ramble on, but my great-great grandfather had served as the sheriff in the county that we live in, and so I started doing some genealogy about him just to find out a little bit more. I was going through old newspapers and I found an article from 1897 describing this gruesome murder in the small town where I grew up and it mentioned my great-great grandfather's name, and the murder was so bizarre that I thought this would make a great book and I put it off and put it off for my entire career until I retired in 2012. And then I put that first book together and I had so much fun, I thought this is it. True crime is my retirement job.

I was going through old newspapers and I found an article from 1897 describing this gruesome murder in the small town where I grew up and it mentioned my great-great grandfather's name, and the murder was so bizarre that I thought this would make a great book and I put it off and put it off for my entire career until I retired in 2012.

[04:09] Debbi: Hmm. Yeah. So, it started with a genealogy project. That's very interesting. Have you always been into genealogy?

[04:19] Rod: You know, more so when I retired and I had more time. I always was fascinated by the fact that my great-great grandfather had been the sheriff, an elected official and I was able through family members to get his badge and gun and handcuffs from 1897 and those are priceless to me. In doing my research for my first book, I went to the archives of Michigan and they had the original court file from 1897 that had a handwritten statement from my great-great grandfather about what he had seen at this particular murder scene, and that to me was like gold. And so, I have become more interested in genealogy since then, yes.

[05:14] Debbi: It is an interesting subject. How much historical research apart from official records do you do on your books?

[05:26] Rod: I try to get everything that I can, and I use a great internet resource newspapers.com, which is invaluable. And because I have experience in seeking out police records through Freedom of Information Act, that's what I try to do if the case is actually something that they might still have. And by that, I mean I was able to locate for my second book a murder in 1955, I was able to locate the original police file, mostly through attorneys that were involved in it. They were elderly, but still practicing law. My last book, which I'm sure we'll talk about here shortly, I was able to get the entire police file and the book that I hope to have published by this summer, I was able to get a 60-year-old police file from the Michigan state police. So historic information I try to get mostly through newspapers.com and through original court documents and police files.

I try to get everything that I can, and I use a great internet resource newspapers.com, which is invaluable. And because I have experience in seeking out police records through Freedom of Information Act, that's what I try to do if the case is actually something that they might still have.

[06:46] Debbi: That's the safest bet, isn't it?

[06:48] Rod: Oh, it's the most accurate that I have found.

[06:51] Debbi: Yes. Yeah. That's where you can get actual official things that people have said under oath and so forth.

[06:59] Rod: Yeah, exactly.

[07:00] Debbi: Yeah. How did you get interested in Don Miller's case? You were interested before he started writing you, right?

[07:09] Rod: I'm sorry.

[07:10] Debbi: You were interested in his case before he started writing you, correct?

[07:15] Rod: I was. Early in my police career—actually before my police career—I was graduating from high school when this was going on. Don Miller was arrested for sexual assault and attempted murder of two teenagers the year that I graduated from high school. I already knew that I was going to go into law enforcement as a career. I had my college curriculum all laid out and in a couple months I was going to start at the community college, and so I kind of followed the headlines because it was a high-profile case. It was literally 20 miles from where I lived and it involved a criminal justice student by the name of Don Miller, who was the prime suspect in all of these particular incidents. And so, I did follow it while it progressed through the court system, and then when he was sentenced to prison in 1979 for 30 to 50 years, everybody thought, hey, we don't have to worry about Don Miller anymore. Well, guess where we are today? We're worrying about Don Miller again.

It was literally 20 miles from where I lived and it involved a criminal justice student by the name of Don Miller, who was the prime suspect in all of these particular incidents.

[08:29] Debbi: Yeah. Do you do a lot of interviews or do you mainly rely on official documents?

[08:39] Rod: I do both, actually. In the Don Miller case, one of the things that attracted me to it late in my ... well, actually in retirement was the fact that over the years I had become friends, professional colleague friends with numerous people that were directly involved in that case, and that included everybody from the initial officer who took the first missing person complaint in 1977, right up to Don Miller's own defense attorney and the prosecuting attorney that put him in prison. I probably knew 75% of the people involved in that case, and so I interviewed about 75% of the people involved in that case. And then I relied on court to transcripts and police reports.

I had become friends, professional colleague friends with numerous people that were directly involved in that case, and that included everybody from the initial officer who took the first missing person complaint in 1977, right up to Don Miller's own defense attorney and the prosecuting attorney that put him in prison.

[09:38] Debbi: How do you keep all the information organized as you collect it?

[09:44] Rod: Oh boy, that's a tough one. For my first book, it was just kind of a hodgepodge of notes and things, but then as I progressed to my second and my third book, I kind of came up with a system, if you will, where I simply categorize the news articles in one folder and court documents in another and interviews in another, and I try to put things chronologically....

This episode of the Crime Cafe podcast features my interview with crime writer David Kushner.

Check out our discussion his nine-part series on Substack about a murder at the Texas Renaissance Fair and other writing.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a link to a PDF copy of the interview.

Debbi: Hi, everyone. Today, it's my pleasure to have with me an award-winning journalist and author. And along with writing true crime and non-fiction graphic novels, he's written for a variety of major periodicals. Today, we'll focus on his writing for a newsletter he has on Substack called Disruptor. My guest today is David Kushner. Hi, David. Thanks for being with us today.

David: Hi, thanks for having me.

Debbi: Well, no problem. It's a pleasure for me. I was reading over what you wrote on Substack about the festival. The Texas Renaissance Festival. What prompted your interest in the crime that took place at this festival?

David: Well, I had gone to the Texas Renaissance Festival. Actually, it was about 17 years ago to do a story on it for FHM magazine, which was a men's magazine at the time and I was interested in it for a couple reasons. One was because it's the world's largest renaissance festival. It's in kind of the middle of a small town, that's a town of about 100 people outside of Houston. So, it's kind of in the middle of nowhere. And this guy George Coulam who came there in the 70s and incorporated the town. Became mayor and then essentially transformed the town into a working recreation of a Renaissance Village, all that was super fascinating to me. And I went there and I was there for a few days reporting the story.

Then at one point, when I was leaving the festival one night, a scuffle broke out very close to me and a lot of shouting and a crowd formed. And I got out of there, you know don't want to be in a situation like that. But what I later found out was that actually somebody had gotten killed in that fight. Somebody was stabbed multiple times and it was a terrible, obviously, terrible tragedy. It's something that I always thought about having just kind of brushed up so close to it. And then as things went, this magazine went out of business. I never wrote this story, but I thought about it for 17 years. And then I finally decided, you know, I have this newsletter and I thought there's a different way maybe I can approach telling it and telling it in kind of a bit of a more multimedia way I guess you might say. And so, that's how it all came about.

I had gone to the Texas Renaissance Festival. Actually, it was about 17 years ago to do a story on it for FHM magazine, which was a men's magazine at the time and I was interested in it for a couple reasons. One was because it's the world's largest renaissance festival. It's in kind of the middle of a small town, that's a town of about 100 people outside of Houston.

Debbi: Yeah, it was very multimedia. You had the clip in there with I think it was Leeza Gibbons.

David: Yeah.

Debbi: Thought that was very interesting. There are a couple of things that struck me about your story. First of all, the way this guy bought up this land.

David: Yeah.

Debbi: Essentially starting this town that he owns pretty much and is mayor of.

David: Right.

Debbi: And it's almost like a unique niche company town or something.

David: Yeah, it's true. I mean it's interesting that he went in there and incorporated the town and like I said became mayor. And then what, he needed people to work. His idea, he really came out of the Renaissance Festivals, came out of the kind of, I guess you would say hippie culture of like 60s, 70s. He was a part of that and he took it really seriously. He was an artist. He worked on stained glass and all of that. And there's kind of a nomadic community around these Renaissance Festivals and they traveled from festival to festival. They also look for somewhere to stay during the off season.

I mean it's interesting that he went in there and incorporated the town and like I said became mayor. And then what, he needed people to work. His idea, he really came out of the Renaissance Festivals, came out of the kind of, I guess you would say hippie culture of like 60s, 70s. He was a part of that and he took it really seriously.

So, he had all of these ideas that he could kind of create a place that would be a really impressive festival but also be a place where people could come—Rennie’s as they're called—could come in the off season. So, and to do this, he needed help. So, he started recruiting the locals who were skeptical certainly at first and they were coming from two different worlds completely. And but he taught them middle English. He taught them how to dress. He taught them how to kind of behave. And they embraced it, because it was a source of income for them and it became a passion for a lot of people in that area.

Debbi: Yeah. Very very interesting. The other thing that struck me about it was the shocking level of violence between people who barely knew each other. And these days that there are shocking, shockingly violent events that that take place.

David: Yeah.

Debbi: Way too often. But when I think about this level of violence in this particular crowd that certainly must have had an effect of some sort.

David: Yeah.

Debbi: Can you talk about that in general in terms of the effect as well as, is this indicative of anything in particular?

David: I mean it may be indicative of what happens when people, you know I don't know. I think that tragedies can happen anytime, anyplace. This is a place where people are spending the day and night drinking a lot, partying a lot. The idea’s that you're living in this somewhat hedonistic fantasy of what it was like during that time, people are jousting men or men, women or women, that kind of an attitude. So, in a way it's very retrograde actually, but and most people go there and have a great time and it's just fun and it's like a theme park. So, I mean if I could break out outside Disney World. But in this case, I think you had an individual who clearly had been drinking and been doing drugs. And then another individual who was in the wrong place, the wrong time, really had tried to help out this other person in ways that I describe an article and then, that quickly went south.

But in this case, I think you had an individual who clearly had been drinking and been doing drugs. And then another individual who was in the wrong place, the wrong time, really had tried to help out this other person in ways that I describe an article and then, that quickly went south.

Debbi: That's for sure. It's amazing, isn't it? What made you interested in writing your books?

David: My books?

Debbi: Yes.

David: I guess I had just been in college. I started writing for the school newspaper and I enjoyed that. That was a way that I could get free CDs and concert tickets at the time. So, I was very opportunistic. And then I really enjoyed it. I grew, around that time I had been reading a lot of what were called the new journalists, people who are writing, magazines like Rolling Stone. So, Hunter Thompson and Tom Wolfe and Joan Didion and people like that and so I just really became attracted to that kind of writing. It was what we call now like narrative nonfiction. So, true stories that read like fiction that are really deeply reported and where the reporting is immersive and you're really trying to get to know people again. Find out what makes them tick and bring them to life.

I grew, around that time I had been reading a lot of what were called the new journalists, people who are writing, magazines like Rolling Stone. So, Hunter Thompson and Tom Wolfe and Joan Didion and people like that and so I just really became attracted to that kind of writing.

So, that was my interest and then I started in the pretty much in the early 90’s kind of writing about the nascent internet. Which was starting to happen in gaming and hackers. And I felt like that was a relatively undocumented culture and industry. So, I kind of raised my hand and said, hey, I'd like to write about this stuff. And eventually people gave me a break and that led to a series of books.

Debbi: Well, I have to say that you write on a variety of topics. Impressive variety. Music, travel, business, true crime. Have I missed anything?...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer John Gaspard.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a link to a PDF copy of the interview.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Our guest today is the author of the Eli Marks mystery series. He also writes the Como Lake Players mystery series under the pen name Bobbie Raymond. Bobbie Raymond. I believe I have that right. In addition to three standalone novels, he has written several books about low budget filmmaking. Now that's an interesting subject. Coming to us from Minnesota, my guest today is John Gaspard. Hi, John, did I pronounce that correctly?

John: You did. You pronounced it one of the two ways that is acceptable. My wife is more persistent about Ronnie Gaspard, but I've always had Gaspard so I answer to either one.

Debbi: Gaspard. Very French.

John: Yes. Oh yes. It's like Smith in the phone book over there.

Debbi: All right. Okay. By the way, I love the short story that you provided for your guest post.

John: Great! Thank you.

Debbi: I just want to say that if you out there have not read it, any listeners have not read it, I would highly recommend you go to my blog and take a look at it. It's fun and it even comes with an animated video, which I loved. it's on my blog on my website and it's a great way to sample John's writing and Eli Marks. What prompted you to write this particular series about this kind of protagonist?

John: Well, boy, that's a really good question. I had written a standalone suspense novel called The Ripperologists about people who are experts on Jack the Ripper who have to solve a current day recreation of the crimes, and I liked the process, but that particular story didn't have what I thought were a lot of legs. I was a big fan of the writer Lawrence Block and the different series that he had. His Matthew Scudder series, which is pretty hardboiled, and then his Bernie Rhodenbarr burglar series which is more lighthearted and a little goofier, and I really liked that. I'd liked something in that mold and was looking for a hero. In The Ripperologists, there had been a dynamic of a crotchety old expert and a younger whippersnapper guy, and I liked that so I created Eli Marks, the magician who's in his thirties and his uncle Harry, who had essentially raised him who's in his eighties. Harry is a master magician. He has worked in all forms of professional stage magic, close up magic, kids' magic, big illusions. You name it, Harry's done it and his nephew, Eli is in his early thirties and is a working magician, making a living birthday parties and corporate events and trade shows and that sort of thing. Nowhere near as successful or knowledgeable as Harry was, but he always has Harry as a resource.

I fell into magicians because looking around I realized, because I was at the time in the meetings and events business in the corporate world, I knew more magicians than the average person knew and they were all pretty interesting. Very creative, very smart, a little quirky, and then I started investigating and found out the names of their tricks. Names that you might never hear cause a lot of times, a magician doesn't say this is such and such a trick. They just do the trick, but the names themselves lent themselves to I thought pretty good mystery titles, like The Ambitious Card, The Bullet Catch, The Miser's Dream, that sort of thing. So, I sat down and started to study and learn how to write like a magician. I'm not a magician, but I can write like one and I'm pretty good at making it sound like Eli knows what he's talking about and Harry knows what they're talking about.

I fell into magicians because looking around I realized, because I was at the time in the meetings and events business in the corporate world, I knew more magicians than the average person knew and they were all pretty interesting. Very creative, very smart, a little quirky, and then I started investigating and found out the names of their tricks.

Debbi: How did you get to know so many magicians?

John: Well, I booked several of them in the corporate world. When I was doing meetings and events for companies, you'd have to have after-dinner entertainment and magicians are always good for that sort of thing. And then a couple actor friends were also magicians and I had about a half dozen people I knew who were professional magicians, which is a lot more than the average person would have in their life who isn't at all involved in magic, a whole lot more. I'm surprised if any of your listeners even know one professional magician personally. It just seemed like a really good, interesting field. There was a lot of history to it. There's a lot of depth and because he's a magician, Eli is in a lot of different environments. He runs a magic store with his uncle. He does corporate events. He does trade shows. He finds himself in a lot of different situations where murders or whatever happened, so he isn't homebound or anything like Nero Wolfe or something. He is out in the world and is able to really do things and explore things, and that's what I liked about the magician. It's not a normal kind of a job cause every time they do something, they're generally in a different environment.

Debbi: That's great. It's so esoteric. Did you do a lot of research to get to know the magician trade?

John: I did. I had to do a ton of research to get up to speed. I had to. I understood that I was like that old joke about the two guys who were being chased by the bear, and one guy says to the other one, we will never outrun that bear. And the other guy says, I don't have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you. And that's what it is with me and magic. I don't know as much as a magician, but I know more than the average person and that's really all I need to know, but it's been a constant learning thing. I have to just keep learning stuff and filling the hopper for if Harry makes an offhand comment about a magician in the 20s, I need to know a magician in the 20s and I need to know something about him, so I did do a lot of reading. I went to some conventions. There was a really good podcast at the time called the Magic News Wire that had a lot of good interviews, and then I was very lucky that a world class magician happens to live about 10 minutes away from me. Her name is Suzanne. She's performed all around the world. You can see her at the Magic Castle in Los Angeles a couple times a year, and she's been doing it for 20 years and she really knows her stuff and she gives occasional lessons. And so, I took about a dozen lessons from her, ostensibly to learn how to do the trick that is the title trick in the first book, The Ambitious Card, which is a card trick where the card that the volunteer has chosen keeps being buried in the deck of cards and then pops to the top on its own magically.

I had to do a ton of research to get up to speed. I had to. I understood that I was like that old joke about the two guys who were being chased by the bear, and one guy says to the other one, we will never outrun that bear. And the other guy says, I don't have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you. And that's what it is with me and magic.

So not only did she teach me the moves to do that, but I also was able to learn what it's like to be a full-time magician, cause that's her job. What are her concerns? What keeps her up at night? What annoys her? What excites her? And so even though I was writing a male character, the job was the same, whether it's male or female. I learned a lot from Suzanne and we've become good friends since then, and that really gave me the footing that I needed. But like I say, I still listen to magic podcasts. I still read books. I still get magazines. I still have to keep learning stuff in order to keep everything accurate, because although the average reader wouldn't know whether I got something right or wrong, a magician reading it would and they would reach out I'm sure and let me know that I have described an effect wrong or have a slight wrong or something like that.

But just the opposite has happened. In fact, I was very fortunate a couple years ago, I got an email from Teller of Penn and Teller. He doesn't speak, but he does write emails. He had read one of the books and he wrote me the nicest note, saying mostly mysteries that involve magicians get the magic wrong. You did not....

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Iain Parke.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a link to a PDF copy of the interview.

Debbi: Hi, everyone. Before I introduce my guest, I’ll just mention that my latest novel, Fatal Connections is out now. It’s the second Erica Jensen mystery. And since Erica is a female marine veteran, Veterans Day seemed like a good day to have it released. So, if you like hard-boiled mystery, please check it out. Yes, it’s at all the usual retailers, so do check it out, including Amazon, of course. But with me today is a guy who writes about motorcycle clubs, or as it’s described on his website, Biker Noir. I like that description. You should totally check out his writing sample on his website. It’s really awesome. And with me today then is Iain Parke. Hi, Iain. How are you doing?

Iain Parke: Hi, very well. Thank you. Greetings from across the pond on a fairly grotty November night.

Debbi: It’s kind of grotty around here. It’s not nice, but it’s been raining. Actually, it was kind of nice. It’s cleared up and well, we kind of went from rain to cleared up. So, it was not so bad, really when it comes down to it. [crosstalk]

Iain: Yeah, you can tell you’re talking to someone from England because we’re on to the weather already. I mean that’s all we talk about.

Debbi: That’s all we talk about in Maryland too, that’s interesting. Very, very interesting. I got to tell you though, I noticed you have an MBA and an interesting background, insolvency and business restructuring. So, the fact that you kind of drew on that experience to write a conspiracy thriller as a novel seem to suggest something dire.

Iain: Yeah. I did an MBA and was interested in running businesses, and set out effectively to have a career in running businesses and doing just things in this sort of distressed business space. And I won’t bore you with the career history, but essentially at one point I ended up, I wanted to get a secondment. I was working for PwC, one of the big firms at the time and I wanted to secondment to Canada and I ended up in Tanzania, which just proves my geography is fairly lousy. So, from going to the west coast of Canada to going to East Africa, I ended up sort of running a match factory with about a thousand employees, including 300 ladies putting matches into boxes by hand on the slopes of Kilimanjaro for a year.

And I spent two and a half years out there, doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things, really. And it was a very interesting fish out of water experience; all the sort of cultural shock that you get by going to a very different culture. And I started writing something. I spent a very drunken evening, very drunken New Year’s Day, visiting a friend who had a heart attack on Kilimanjaro, who was working with the local farmers. And during the day I read before we got very drunk on New Year’s Eve, I read John le Carré, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. And the next day with a thumping hangover I read an Iain Banks novel. And I remember sitting there thinking, the le Carré, I was fascinated by how he’d got that atmosphere, the sort of bureaucracy and that.

And then the Iain Banks novel, I was just fascinated by how he’d managed to get such a complicated plot to then all worked through. And I remember, I literally remember sitting there thinking, “Oh, that’s really interesting. Could I do that?” And then I started writing something. And to be honest, to start with, it was really just therapy about being this fish out of water somewhere in East Africa doing all these odd things. And it turned into a sort of political conspiracy novel called The Liquidator. And if anybody’s going on a safari holiday, I just recommend not taking it because you don’t want to be caught with it at customs, guys. But it was just a fascinating thing to do. And I really wrote it for me as a getting something out of my system, almost. And I wrote this thing, and it was 180,000 words long, and it was far too long.

And I came back home and it went in a drawer and I forgot about it for 10 years. Until I was at one stage, I left the company and I had a two-three months of garden leave period where I wasn’t supposed to be working or anything else. So, I took this out of the drawer, I thought well actually, I really ought to finish this. And I sort of rewrote it about two or three times from different viewpoints. And I sent it -- I had the great fortune of sending it to my brother. If you are a writer, what you need is somebody rude. I sent it to my brother who was at the time a sub editor on a local newspaper. And I sent in the first three chapters and said, “What do you think of this?”

And about two weeks later came this envelope, and he put a big red line through all of chapter one, and just written ‘please’ on it. And it was just like, take out all this self-indulgent stuff. And eventually it slimmed down, and it ended up being sort of 100,000 words out of 180. And I thought, right, I’m going to -- I couldn’t find an agent or anybody who’s interested. So, I decided to self-publish it.

And I thought, right, I’ve got that out of my system. I’ve done it. And I thought, okay, so I’ve done that and I’ve really enjoyed writing it. And I have another career in writing business books to do with the NBA and restructuring, etc. And I’m a sort of published author through traditional means on that. And I just, I’d got into the habit of writing by that stage, so I sat down, what else am I interested in writing about? And I’m a lifelong biker. And I’ve always been interested in sort of the far edge of that scene, if you like. And I was really irritated by the fact that the way bikers tend to be presented in the media tends to be sort of fairly Neanderthal.

I’m a lifelong biker. And I’ve always been interested in sort of the far edge of that scene, if you like. And I was really irritated by the fact that the way bikers tend to be presented in the media tends to be sort of fairly Neanderthal.

You know, you come across them as comedy villains in Clint Eastwood films, etc. And I thought, actually this is -- Whatever you think about it, it’s a very serious lifestyle, and people commit to it very seriously and take it very seriously, and deserve to be treated seriously. And so why is no -- And actually, to me, it was a fascinating area of life. And I thought why is nobody writing fiction set in that -- there’s loads of fiction about the Mafia, and other sort of areas of crime. But why is nobody writing anything about that? And I thought, well, if nobody else is doing it, and there’s this thing about, write what you’d be interested in reading. So, I thought, well, I’ll write about it.

So, I started to write a book, which was about a character called Damage and how he got involved in the sort of biker scene and the choices that led him to make and how that worked out. And it was really just supposed to be a one off story. And I finished that and published it and it started doing quite well. And I had no intention of doing anything more in that scene. I thought I’d go on to do other things. I had loads of other other projects I wanted to do. And then about three or four months after I published it, two of the characters met up in my head for a meeting. And they were off. Yeah, they just started and I was just along for the ride, essentially.

Debbi: For the ride, how appropriate.

Iain: They completely took on and so they started this thing that led to a second book. And I remember talking to somebody who done reviews of the first one. I said, oh by the way, I’ve done a follow up. And they said how the hell have you done that on the basis that you’ve killed off most of the -- So, my tip for writing a successful series, don’t kill off all your characters in book one because that's a fundamental mistake. [crosstalk] Yeah. So, I wrote a second and then I wrote a third and that seemed to finish off a trilogy.

And then that’s turned into another three books which are not, which are other books set within the same world and within the same characters. So, they’re sort of extensions, they cross different aspects. And they become sort of a cult. I have to say that very carefully. But I’ve been referred to as a sort of cult author, which is quite flattering, I have to say. And the first trilogy got picked up to be developed for TV,...

This week, in lieu of a guest author, we have an episode courtesy of Old Time Radio! :) It's the Philip Marlowe episode, "The Heart of Gold".

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

The transcript of this show and any other Old Time Radio episodes are being made available to patrons of the show!

Next week's guest will be Iain Parke.

Enjoy the podcast! :)

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Anne Laughlin.

This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two eBooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy inks for both on my website, debbimack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Check us out on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/crimecafe

Debbi (00:54): But first, let me put in a good word for Blubrry podcasting.

I’m a Blubrry affiliate, but that’s not the only reason I’m telling you this. I’ve been using Blubrry Podcasting as my hosting service for my podcast for years and it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. They give great customer service, you’re in complete control of your own podcast, you can run it from your own website, and it just takes a lot of the work out of podcasting for me. I find for that reason that it’s a company that I can get behind 100% and say, “You should try this.” Try Blubrry. It doesn’t require a long-term contract, and it’s just a great company, period. It also has free technical support by email, video, and phone, so you can get a human being there. Isn’t that nice?

If you want to podcast, try out Blubrry. No long-term contract, excellent distribution, and great technical support, too, by email, video, and on the phone. I’ve included an affiliate link on this blog.

Here’s a link to a PDF copy of the interview.

Debbi: Hi everyone. My guest today has authored six crime novels, including her latest book, Money Creek, which she's offered as a giveaway. The first two commenters on her website on the contact page will each get a copy. She is a four-time Goldie Award winner and been shortlisted for a Lammy Award three times. She also reviews contemporary LGBTQ literature at the Lambda Literary Review. A resident of Chicago, it's my great pleasure to have with me, Anne Laughlin. Hi, Anne, how are you doing?

Anne: Hi, Debbi. I'm doing great. How are you?

Debbi: Good. Thank you. Let's see. I want to thank you, first of all, for being here today.

Anne: Oh, it's a pleasure to be here.

Debbi: And taking the time to talk with me.

Anne: Yeah.

Debbi: To all of us. And your books, they're all standalones, correct?

Anne: That's right. I have yet to start a series, though I keep thinking I will. Maybe—

Debbi: I was going to ask you.

Anne: Yeah. The book I'm writing now would work out for a series character. But you know what, when you write a series, you really should be more mindful than I'm being and have in mind kind of an overall arc for that character.

Debbi: Exactly.

Anne: Be thinking ahead several books. Yeah.

Debbi: Yes, exactly.

Anne: I don't think I can think ahead several. I don't know if I have that capacity.

Debbi: You might be surprised.

Anne: Yeah. Yeah. So yes, all standalones and kind of a combination of traditional mystery, suspense novels, police procedural, the private investigator.

Debbi: That's really cool that you have that kind of mix there.

Anne: Yeah.

Debbi: I notice that in a few of your books, quite a few it seems, you either have legal issues or a lawyer involved. And I wondered if you had a legal background.

Anne: Yes. I, for many years, worked in large law firms as a trial assistant, and that... I burned out from that eventually and had to leave the business. But while I was there, I learned so much about lawyering, and what I learned, I was able to take in with me as I was writing books. So, because it was a comfortable milieu, I used it more than once. And also, lawyers are good topic or good subjects for crime novels.

Debbi: Yes, they are, very much so. I have to agree with you there. Let's see.

Anne: In fact, the last book, Money Creek, that has a lawyer from a large law firm, and I don't paint the law firm in very pretty colors. [Laughing] She was an evacuee from a large law firm.

Debbi: Yeah. It can be a bit rough working at a law firm.

Anne: Oh, I was working 90 hours a week sometimes. So it was terrible.

Debbi: It's really amazing how much work lawyers put into their jobs. How much time and how much effort. And one of the things I've actually done is I've recently interviewed a local lawyer about criminal issues, and I'm kind of examining them one at a time. And I'm sort of interested in getting feedback from authors about whether they would be interested in hearing various legal issues and how they might use them or get them right or wrong in their work.

Anne: I think that would be a great service. I don't think I've seen that elsewhere.

Debbi: Wow.

Anne: I mean, and because there were certain... just simple procedural things that authors could learn would be very helpful in kind of grounding a legal issue in your book.

Debbi: I agree.

Anne: Yeah.

Debbi: I think it's great that you have that awareness. That's fantastic.

Anne: It's actually proven to be very helpful. And then the last 20 years of my career, working career, was in real estate, and I haven't used that as much, but I have plunked it in there a few times.

Debbi: Real estate. Now there was a subject I could never quite get into, real estate.

Anne: Yeah. Yeah.

Debbi: It's complex. Let's see. How do you choose your protagonist for each of your stories? What is it that inspires a particular story in you?

Anne: What is it that inspires a particular story? I usually come up with a plot idea before I come up with a character idea. And I know everyone does that differently. I try to come up with a subject that I'm going to want to write 300 pages about or a story that I think is going to be rich enough to sustain 300 pages. And then I think about what character would be interesting in grappling with the problems that come with that plot. And there's definitely a similarity in my books and with a lot of crime... with mystery books, which is the strong female detective private investigator slash, slash. Who is brave, who doesn't take any gruff from people, and is determined beyond belief. Also, who has some big flaw or another that adds to the plots. And it provides a way for that character to grow during the course of the book.

Debbi: Absolutely.

Anne: Yeah. So one protagonist, in particular, that was different for me was a book I wrote called The Acquittal, and that was a private investigator protagonist. And she had bipolar disorder, and I was trying to think up what kind of flaw do I want for this protagonist? And it just occurred to me that a mental health issue is not one that had been dealt with all that much with protagonists. There's a famous Monk TV show, of course, the anxiety. Bipolar disorder is a serious disease. And I have her mostly under control through medication throughout the book because I didn't want it to be just her having one episode after another. But the tension came in as the stress grew on Josie throughout the course of the book. So did the danger that she would have another manic episode. So it provided another area of tension for the novel.

Debbi: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Anne: And it was really interesting to research.

Debbi: I can imagine.

Anne: Yeah. I talked to quite a few psychiatrists and one person who has the disorder.

Debbi: My goodness. I can imagine the research that went into that. I was going to ask you about how much research you do before you write a book and during time you write a book.

Anne: Yeah. A lot of that research comes as I'm going along in the book. For instance, right now I'm writing a book that involves a sober living house owned by a larger recovery company. And my research was into the abuse in that industry. And I wanted to find, what are certain things that ultimately are done to the residents of those homes that are corrupt basically? And it was very interesting. I mean, Florida is famous for houses like this, where they advertise these really nice houses and people come and there are three people to a room and people are using drugs in the house and all of that. This is not going to be that story, but I do introduce some well-known ways that these homes are scammed and the residents in them.

Debbi: Wow.

Anne: So that was interesting research. And I was going to write a book, and may still, about the French Resistance. I wanted to maybe set a mystery within that setting. And that research, I mean, I got really elbow deep in that research, which is fascinating. And I would like to use that.

Debbi: That is so interesting because I've always been fascinated by that aspect of the war.

Anne: I know. I mean, to me, it's extraordinary the role that women played in the Resistance. It was a phenomenal role. And the question I always ask myself is if I were put in the same situation where I was asked to parachute into enemy territory and likely be shot and killed, what would I do? And I think that's a question that, in our relatively pampered lives, we've never had to ask ourselves.

Debbi: Yes.

Anne: And it's really an interesting question. I think particularly for women who aren't socialized to be brave, to face physical danger. And yet, these women were so brave. It was really amazing.

Debbi: Yes. Yes. There's a book actually that I read that deals with two women who were in the French resistance. I wish I could remember the name offhand.

Anne: Yeah. I probably read it.

Debbi: Something like Nightingale or Nightshade.

Anne: Oh, it's by Kristin Hannah. It's Nightingale and—

Debbi: Nightingale?

Anne: Yeah. It's fiction.

Debbi: Right.

Anne: Yeah. That was Kristin Hannah. That was a very good... Yeah.

Debbi: Yeah.

...