The Crime Cafe

Debbi Mack interviews crime and suspense writer A.C. Frieden on the Crime Cafe podcast.

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And, once again, we have a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (00:14): Hi everyone. Today's guest has a most interesting background. A native of Switzerland, he's traveled widely. While living in the Southern US, he earned undergraduate and graduate degrees in molecular biology, two law degrees, and got his pilot's license and scuba instructor license. So I guess you could say he keeps busy, his fiction reflects much of his travel experience and his extensive research, both historical and journalistic. In addition to writing mysteries and thrillers, he's one of the country's preeminent technology lawyers. Interesting. It's a great pleasure to introduce my guest AC Frieden. Hi Andre. Thank you so much for being here.

AC (00:14): It's a pleasure to join your podcast. I'm delighted. And as a fellow lawyer, it's always a pleasure as well to, uh, to chat. I think all our legal experience ends up creeping into our books in one way or another.

Debbi (00:14): Isn't that the truth? I'm always amazed when practicing lawyers find the time and energy to write fiction. How do you balance your various obligations?

AC (03:08): I would say that I balance it well, although I think pretty much everyone around me and my family would probably disagree with me. But it is a, you know, a time management challenge you write when you can Sometimes ideas come to your head and you have to write them down in some way quickly or they'll leave. So it's something that you, you learn to do it, it's never perfect. But at the end of the day, the drive is to get the book out. And I think that keeps you focused.

Debbi (03:45): Yeah. I think that's a lot of truth in that, in what you're saying. I think that's great thoughts there. I absolutely agree getting things down when you think about them or if they're important, they'll stay there and you get them down. You know what I mean? It's like sometimes you have all these ideas, but one will kind of fixate itself in your mind? Get it down and don't worry about it being perfect.

AC (04:14): And the thing is, you know, you can think of a schedule. You can think of, you can outline as much as you want, but you have to leave your mind open to things that pop up, you know, as you're writing your story. So things change no matter how much planning you do ahead of time, whether it's plot or character issues. Things will come up, you know, or your editor, the worst case is your editor find something wrong and you've got to do a lot of fixing, so that, that can happen, too.

Debbi (04:47): Yeah. I agree with you completely on all of that. How many hours would you estimate you spend on research for a book versus writing it?

AC (04:58): Well, I put research really into two buckets. So first there is you know, obviously the online part of the research to, you know, everything from looking at the history of a particular site that you're going to use or finding you know, details about a fictional character that you obviously want to be as real as possible. So the challenge is, you know, spending the hours online to do that research. And then for me, and I think one of the things that makes my research fun and exciting is the travel component. To actually see and feel and smell and experience you know, the surroundings of a place that I'm actually going to put it in the book. So that to me is very important. There are very few places in, in the settings, in my books that I haven't visited firsthand.

I think one of the things that makes my research fun and exciting is the travel component. To actually see and feel and smell and experience you know, the surroundings of a place that I'm actually going to put it in the book. So that to me is very important.

AC (05:59): So that, that is part of the excitement, whether I visited it a long time ago, or I traveled just to examine a particular site these things make it fun. And I try to combine it with meeting some locals. Now, whether it's a journalist or government official or something, I try to combine that as well. So that, that's how I look at my research is really these two buckets and together they come together to make it as realistic as possible. In many ways you can, you can travel with my books. I am a stickler for accuracy. If something is 15 meters away, it's going to be 15 meters away in my book. I don't bend, bend the facts on the ground to fit my story.

Debbi (06:50): Wow. That's pretty impressive. According to your bio, you started writing short stories, poems and diaries of your travels. Is that how you got started as a writer?

AC (07:04): Yeah, I mean, I didn't have a master plan other than, you know, finishing law school and starting work. But you know, during law school I traveled. I studied abroad. I studied in Moscow and, you know, given the, incredible history that Moscow offers as well as from a cold war setting I found it interesting just to do research while I was there. And you know, with no purpose in mind with no idea that I would eventually publish you know, espionage, thrillers, but, you know, I documented these travels, a lot of details. I had fun writing poems about them. So in time I had this, you know, stack of materials that ended up finding the right purpose and to write my novels,

Debbi (08:03): I was going to ask you if your traveling inspired your writing or your interest in current events and history inspired your travel, but it sounds to me like you simply take life experiences, take advantage of opportunities while you're in a place, and then it becomes part of your writing. Would that be about right?

There are very few times where I have traveled specifically for for research on a given book. I have really gone, you know, to all corners of the world, mostly out of my own curiosity, to understand different cultures, different systems, to see the worst and the best that the rest of the world has to offer. So I think that's been the driver, but, you know, it all comes full circle in the way that I am able to embody those experiences into my novels.

AC (08:28): That's mostly true. There are very few times where I have traveled specifically for for research on a given book. I have really gone, you know, to all corners of the world, mostly out of my own curiosity, to understand different cultures, different systems, to see the worst and the best that the rest of the world has to offer. So I think that's been the driver, but, you know, it all comes full circle in the way that I am able to embody those experiences into my novels. So, my goal isn't just to entertain with my books, it's also to inform, to see a different opinion. So, you know, whether I'm setting a scene for a Russian spy, I want to, I want the reader to really feel what that Russian spy is feeling, his history, the reason he is doing what he's doing. So I try not to stay with stereotypes because I think once you see this diverse landscape of opinions and motivations around the world, the stereotypes don't do that justice. So that's what I try to do is, is really show the different perspectives and teach people who read my books, you know, in addition to having fun, of course.

So, my goal isn't just to entertain with my books, it's also to inform, to see a different opinion.

Debbi (09:59): Yes, that part is important, but all of that is great. And your impetus for traveling is just like mine. I wish I could do that kind of travel more often. That's fantastic. So let's talk about your books. Your first novel was called Canvas Sunsets Never Fade, correct?

AC (10:22): That's correct. It was a mystery standalone, not part of a series. It was really my first attempt at publishing a mystery, not so much a thriller. There are some thriller elements in there, but it's mostly a mystery and it's rooted in, you know, the everlasting debate about nuclear weapons in the Middle East and proliferation. It goes through a journalist as the protagonist and you know, also reflects some of the travel that I've done. A lot of it is set in Mexico in Washington DC. So that was my first book, my first publication and it, you know, it propelled me into the industry. It was still, I was not fully committed to being a crime fiction author at that time. But I think spending all that time, really understanding you know, everything that goes into writing. And also at the time I was taking fiction writing courses at Columbia College here in Chicago with some amazing mentors. So many of whom have really excelled in their profession in their fiction writing. So I think all that motivated me to continue, and that's where I, I started with a clean slate with the Jonathan Brooks series of which the third one The Pyongyang Option came out recently. And the next one is coming out in May called Letter from Istanbul.

Debbi (12:09):

I have to say about that series. I thought it was interesting that you chose a "hot shot maritime lawyer" as your protagonist, cause I thought "hot shot maritime lawyer" doesn't seem, don't seem to go together or are somehow unusual, which of course, intrigues the hell out of me. I think it's wonderful that unique and, you know, arcane even.

AC (12:41): I mean,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime and suspense writer Wendy Hewlett on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

We did it again! This week, there’s a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (00:00): Hi, everyone. My guest today writes crime fiction with a hint of romance and strong female characters. So, all right. I like that. She's held a number of interesting jobs, which seems to be a trait among many writers that I know. She also has degrees in creative writing, forensic sciences, law, and security, to name a few. She has also pursued her lifelong dream of living in Edinburgh, Scotland, which is a really cool place. My guest today is crime writer, Wendy Hewlett. Hi Wendy. Thanks for being here today.

Wendy (01:32): Hi, Debbi. Thanks for having me.

Debbi (01:35): It's a pleasure. Believe me. You have two series as well as the book you're giving away Ailey of Skye. Is that how you pronounce it?

Wendy (01:47): Yeah. Yeah.

Debbi (01:49): It's short for Aileen then. Is it?

Wendy (01:52): Yeah, it is.

Debbi (01:53): I like that. It's my sister's middle name, and I just started the first in the Taylor Sinclair series, Saving Grace. She's a very interesting protagonist. Can you tell us more about the series and about Taylor Sinclair?

Wendy (02:08): Sure. All of my characters that I write are very strong women and they become that way from the hardships that they have been through in their lives. And, and Taylor has been through probably more than most and, and of course that involves PTSD and, and overcoming that. So she's got a lot of issues and she spent most of her life living on the streets of Toronto and the first book in the series Saving Grace is her story of coming off the streets and the people that help her to do that who become very close friends, a close-knit group of three women.

Debbi (03:01): Yes. Yes. What inspired you to write your first novel?

Wendy (03:07): When I was in high school, my English teacher urged me to pursue a career in writing. So I went to school for journalism and I hated it. I quit at the end of the first year and the professor tried to talk me into staying. And I thought at the time it's because the grade average was going to go down because I had the highest marks in the class. But I learned years later that my sister worked with his wife and apparently didn't want me to leave because he thought I was very talented, which is a huge compliment. And I wish someone that time had said, you know, creative writing, try that. But I didn't. I waited until in 2009, I was laid off from General Motors. I was a security and fire supervisor at General Motors for a lot of years.

Wendy (04:01): So when I was laid off I started doing a lot of reading and I thought, oh, I could write books like these. And that's why I started writing in 2011. And I wanted somebody that was, you know, troubled difficult just to show the strength that she gets from that. And it ended up, when people started reading my book, I started getting messages from women saying, you know, they've been through a lot of trauma in their own childhoods and how much Taylor's healing helped them to heal. And so that's become, you know, a purpose almost with my books is helping women to heal and help to empower them.

I started getting messages from women saying, you know, they've been through a lot of trauma in their own childhoods and how much Taylor's healing helped them to heal. And so that's become, you know, a purpose almost with my books is helping women to heal and help to empower them.

Debbi (04:45): I noticed that in your bio. I thought that was rather remarkable. And do you have a particular type of demographic in mind when you write, I hate to say, read your avatar, but do you think about that as you're writing these books?

Wendy (05:01): A little bit. Yeah. I think most people do, I'm basically writing to all women because I know most of them have been through difficulties and struggle, and the way we gain that strength is by overcoming it. And there's a lot of ways we can do that.

I'm basically writing to all women because I know most of them have been through difficulties and struggle, and the way we gain that strength is by overcoming it. And there's a lot of ways we can do that.

Debbi (05:22): You're absolutely right about that. Can you give me an idea of Taylor's arc, story arc through the series? I assume that there is, there are stages of improvement as she goes through the series?

Wendy (05:40): Her friendship with Gray Rowan, who is an author. The series starts up with a murderer escaping from prison. And he's the man who murdered Taylor's sister 16 years before. And it was Gray Rowan who he had kidnapped and held for several days who escaped and was responsible for him being captured. So when he escapes, Taylor knows he's going to go after Gray Rowan. He wants to, so she tries to talk to Toronto police and they're not listening to her. So she decides she's going to go and do something about it herself. And Gray ends up taking her in and they develop a really close bond over their shared past trauma and, and what Gray went through and what she knew about Taylor's sister.

Wendy (06:47): And it develops from there. A Toronto police detective sergeant gets involved in the case. And then when they capture this guy there's a little twist. Everybody thinks the end is going to be when this guy is captured. Right? But it's only really just the beginning of the story because Taylor being on the news, her past becomes front and center in the media and she becomes really harassed by the media a lot. And so she has to deal with that. And there is an investigation into her abuser. It comes about from the media attention, right? And so her, she develops a really close bond with Detective Sergeant Christina as well, who's the detective sergeant investigating the case. And Chris convinces Taylor to go to police college and come to work with her with in the Toronto sex crimes unit with the Toronto police. And so the second book, Unfinished Business, she's still dealing with stuff from her past, but starting with the third book, Runed, every book, it's going to be a different case with the Toronto sex crimes unit with Taylor and Chris working the cases.

A Toronto police detective sergeant gets involved in the case. And then when they capture this guy there's a little twist. Everybody thinks the end is going to be when this guy is captured. Right? But it's only really just the beginning of the story because Taylor being on the news, her past becomes front and center in the media and she becomes really harassed by the media a lot. And so she has to deal with that.

Debbi (08:15): Hmm. Fascinating. I love the relationship between Gray and Taylor, by the way. I just, that kind of mentoring relationship, that protective relationship is really great. And they became two women who are supporting each other and helping each other. Yeah. I love that.

Wendy (08:37): And Chris has done a lot of that as well, but she's got a, more of a kind of dark sense of humor and a bit of a potty mouth.

Debbi (08:44): Who's this again?

Wendy (08:46): Chris, Detective Sergeant Chris Cain.

Debbi (08:48): Oh yeah. The potty mouth. Yeah. Yeah. She's the cop, she gets to have the potty mouth. I was going to say your credentials are just really amazing. Forensic science, and you've also worked as a counselor for alcoholics and drug addicts. So how much of your stories and the characters do you draw through your actual experiences?

Wendy (09:15): The characters themselves? Not so much, but what I've learned from working with people in the security field, in the addictions treatment field way back when I worked on cruise ships, what I've learned with working with people back then, all of that plays into it. So the characters are not so much from my real life, I don't really make them after someone that I know. But definitely the knowledge that I've gained through my experience, my life experience helps to build those characters.

[W]hat I've learned from working with people in the security field, in the addictions treatment field way back when I worked on cruise ships, what I've learned with working with people back then, all of that plays into it. So the characters are not so much from my real life, I don't really make them after someone that I know. But definitely the knowledge that I've gained through my experience, my life experience helps to build those characters.

Debbi (09:59): It certainly must help you understand their motivations and how they would act in certain situations,

Wendy (10:06): Definitely. Ailey of Skye. She's a recovering addict, alcoholic. And she travels from Toronto to the Isle of Skye, because her grandmother, she has left her a house there. So she wants to, and she's just come out of rehab. And she's trying to decide what to do with her life and what to do with this cottage that's been left to her. So she flies over there and she gets a big surprise when she arrives because she has family there, her brother's living in the house. She gets there and there's a man in the house and her mother is also still alive, which she didn't know. She thought she'd died shortly after her birth. So it's an interesting story about, you know, overcoming addictions and, and finding that family love, you know?

Debbi (10:58): Very cool. Yeah, that sounds wonderful. Tell us a little about your Solstice Coven series. I thought that the protagonist sounded particularly fascinating, a constable descended from Wiccans, is that right?

Wendy (11:16): Yeah. I've always wanted to, I've always been interested in Wicca, and a whole religion around it and witches, and that sort of thing. So the protagonist in that is the detective, Constable Raven Bowen and her mother has just pa

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Tom Vater on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

We did it again! This week, there’s a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

I originally ran this interview on my own YouTube channel. My apologies for any variations in the sound quality.

Debbi (01:55): I'm interviewing another crime fiction author. His name is Tom Vater and he's a journalist and author. So he is located in Bangkok and writes about that place and writes some very interesting stuff. So I would like to welcome you on, on the channel Tom. Hi.

Tom (02:21):Thanks, Debbi. Thanks very much for having me on the show. It's wonderful to meet you on this amazing technology we're using, and it's great to talk to you. You're about six, 7,000 miles away or even more so it's amazing that we can actually do this. You at the beginning of your day and me at the end of it.

Debbi (02:42): Yeah, I know. I think I've always been amazed at this sort of thing. So my assumption is that you started with journalism and went into crime writing? Would that be correct?

Tom (02:56): Well, actually it sort of happened hand in hand, because the first article I ever wrote for a newspaper was in 1997, for a paper in Nepal. And while I was there, I started thinking about writing my first novel, The Devil's Road to Kathmandu, which then eventually came out in 2004. So it, it kind of happened at the same time. But but I, I would say that, you know, between the pieces of fiction, I write, there are long gaps for professional reasons. And so mostly most of the time I have a day job, I do journalism. And when I have some months off, then I can sit down and write a novel.

Debbi (03:43): So you're primarily a journalist who also does crime writing.

Tom (03:48): Yeah. You could say that. I also own a a small publishing house Crime Wave Press, which is a crime fiction imprint based in Hong Kong, which does mostly books. And we've published about 32 titles by all sorts of authors, many of them from the U.S. So that's, that's my other gig. So I kind of do three different things. I'm a crime fiction writer. I, I'm a very small press publisher with just one partner and I've written four crime fiction novels and a bunch of short stories.

Debbi (04:22): I'm interested in the fact that you do so much stuff. I'm also interested in, in the notion of, of, of, of a journalist going into this sort of thing, because the tradition of journalists going into fiction writing is historically something I've always been kind of intrigued by, which is why I majored in journalism actually, because of my interest in writing and in fiction in general. What made you choose crime fiction in particular as a genre?

[G]enre fiction kind of makes it easy to, because it's got many established rules and tropes and conventions, and, and so in that sense, it's quite conservative. So you, as a writer, there's a lot of things to hold onto when you're writing your first novel, because it has to go a certain way, if you're gonna follow crime fiction conventions.

Tom (05:01): I think there's probably several things. One is genre fiction kind of makes it easy to, because it's got many established rules and tropes and conventions, and, and so in that sense, it's quite conservative. So you, as a writer, there's a lot of things to hold onto when you're writing your first novel, because it has to go a certain way, if you're gonna follow crime fiction conventions. If you write literary fiction, it seems at least to me, when I was in my twenties, it seemed much more disorienting and I didn't know really how I would do that character development and stuff, but in crime fiction, you know, you have certain stock characters and certain ways the plots develop and end in the end. So, so I felt certainly with my first novel, The Devil's Road to Kathmandu, that I wanted to just write a sort of conventional adventure story, you know, it's the story of four young guys who in 1975 hit the hippie trail between between London and Kathmandu and drive a van from London to Kathmandu. And on the way they make a drug deal that goes horribly wrong. And ice disappears with the money [indecipherable] mail saying, come back to Kathmandu and get your share of the money. So that it's like a classic kind of adventure story that I wanted to create. And I just felt that sort of crime fiction travel genre which would be the easiest way of turning that into a reality.

Debbi (06:41): Yeah. which novel is this?

Tom (06:45): I'm sorry. It's my first novel. The Devil's Road to Kathmandu, which was originally published by a Hong Kong publishing house in 2004. And it's still in print, it's out in English and in Spanish and yeah, it's still, after all these years, it's, it's actually still ships some copies, so that's quite nice.

Debbi (07:05): That's interesting. That's great. Sounds like fun. I've been reading your latest novel, The Monsoon Ghost Image. The main character in that is very intriguing. Maier [MY-er]. Is that how you pronounce his name?

Tom (07:20): Yeah, that's how you pronounce his name. And I should say it's a very German name. It's like one of the, the standards, very common German names, but incidentally it's also the name of the sidekick in the John D. MacDonald novels.

Debbi (07:43): Oh yeah. That's right.

Tom (07:45): It's spelled in a different way, but I was kind of inspired by that guy as well.

Debbi (07:51): Wow. Yeah, I had totally forgotten about that. It's been so long since I've read John D. MacDonald, who I love.

Tom (07:58): Right. But there's always that sidekick in all those novels and he's called Meyer. It's spelled a little bit differently. He's an accountant, I think. And so, in kind of an homage to John D. MacDonald, I called my detective Maier as well, but it is also a very, very common German name, you know.

Debbi (08:19): Well, tell us a little bit more about the character and the series in general.

The series is now a trilogy. Basically, they're historical novels in a way. They deal with a particular aspect of history, but they're also just detective novels about a German detective who lives in Hamburg, works for a detective agency there. He's a former conflict journalist and, and he's from the former communist East Germany as well.

Tom (08:24): Yeah. The series is now a trilogy. It's, it's basically they're historical novels in a way. They deal with a particular aspect of history, but they're also just detective novels about a German detective who lives in Hamburg, works for a detective agency there. He's a former conflict journalist and, and he's from the former communist East Germany as well. And he does jobs in Asia. When, when German citizens get, go on off the rails in Asia or they get on the wrong tracks or something tragic happens to them, he's the guy who's sent by his agency to go and resolve the situations and clean up. So in the first book, The Cambodian Book of the Dead, he goes to Cambodia as the title suggests and tries to find the heir to a Hamburg coffee empire, who's gone AWOL in Cambodia.

Tom (09:24): In the second book, he tries to resolve the 25-year-old murder of a communist cultural attache from East Germany and in Laos, which to this day is communist. And in the third book, he's in Thailand, The Monsoon Ghost Image, which is just out, where he's investigating the disappearance of a celebrity photographer. The alleged disappearance who is also alleged to have taken photographs of the CIA's extraordinary renditions program that ran in the early two thousands in the wake of 9/11. So all those books are kind of based in a historical framework, but they are also, you know, action, adventure, detective stories that play in particular locations that I'm familiar with from my journalistic work because I've been in Asia for 20 years. And I know that Cambodia, Laos, and Thailand quite well because I've worked in those countries a great deal.

Debbi (10:29): Well I was intrigued by an interview that I read with you where you said sometimes it's easier writing about larger truths in genre fiction than it is in journalism and nonfiction. And I've always thought that fiction is a great way to explore truth. What sort of larger truths have you taken on in your fiction?

Tom (10:57): Huh. Yeah, I mean, in terms of the historical angle the things I discuss in those three novels there, they all are heavy-duty historical themes. In the first one, I talk about the genocide of the communists in Cambodia and the Western involvement in that. In the second book, I talk about the CIA's secret war in Laos in the 1960s, which at that point was the American intelligence community's largest campaign to date. And in the third book, again, I look at American foreign policy. So that's kind of ... it's as a journalist, it's very difficult to write about those subjects and, and take a step back from the hard news from what happens from day to day to day to day. And the crime fiction gives me a platform to talk about these subjects in a, in a more kind of detached, and, you know, you kind of having a bird's eye view of the situation because of course, first of all, it's already passed some years ago. It is our history now. And so I can, I can look at many,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Jessie Chandler on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

We did it again! This week, there’s a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (01:44): Hi everyone. My guest today has written seven mysteries, including five in the Shay O'Hanlon caper series. Her latest book Quest for Redemption is the first in a new series. It also recently won an award, I believe. She is also the second author in a row on this show this season to be an artist as well as a writer. I'm pleased to have with me today mystery writer, Jessie Chandler. Hi Jessie. It's great to have you on.

Jessie (02:16): Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. This is so exciting.

Debbi (02:19): Well, this is a thrill for me. I mean so many artists and so many writers. This is wonderful.

Jessie (02:26): It's a good, good thing to be in. Good area to be, a good place to be.

Debbi (02:30): I think it is. Yeah. I think that graphic arts for one thing is just a fantastic area right now for many reasons. But let's see. Before we get to your latest book, tell us a little about your caper series, which you've compared to Stephanie Plum, I believe. So are you much in that kind of Janet Evanovich sort of humor?

I've got a cute little old lady who loves to get in trouble with her neon high tops and her little mini backpack. She calls it her whacker to take care of people. It doesn't follow a lot of the, the romancey stuff of Janet Evanovich in any way. And it's got much more of a Midwest feel.

Jessie (02:48): Sort of, yeah, a lot of physical comedy, a lot of slapstick stuff. I've got a cute little old lady who loves to get in trouble with her neon high tops and her little mini backpack. She calls it her whacker to take care of people. It doesn't follow a lot of the, the romancey stuff of Janet Evanovich in any way. And it's got much more of a Midwest feel. The big twist is the protagonist is a lesbian, which my hope in the series and it seemed to have panned out mostly so far from the reviews I've received and people talking to me that, you know, that LGBTQ people are the same as anybody else. And we have the same ups, the same downs. We have the same challenges and just, it's just a part of who she is.

LGBTQ people are the same as anybody else. And we have the same ups, the same downs. We have the same challenges and just, it's just a part of who she is.

Jessie (03:46): And that's been a good part of that series for me. I love to laugh and if I can dive into a book for just a few minutes, you know, I don't have a lot of time and I can read a little bit, have a good time, and then I can come back to it. That's just, it is so good. It is so good. And I don't think, especially now we have enough laughter, enough humor in our lives. There's so much serious stuff going on. So that is what, and we'll talk about that in a little bit, I imagine. Quest For Redemption is very opposite of that. It's very much darker and it was a big challenge, but I'm really excited. The next book I write will be the sixth in the Shay O'Hanlon caper series called Shanghai Murder. It goes out to Portland, Oregon, and there's some Shanghai Tunnels under the city and there's some coffee involved and some kidnapping and a little of this and a little of that. And it's going to be a lot of fun.

The next book I write will be the sixth in the Shay O'Hanlon caper series called Shanghai Murder. It goes out to Portland, Oregon, and there's some Shanghai Tunnels under the city and there's some coffee involved and some kidnapping and a little of this and a little of that. And it's going to be a lot of fun.

Debbi (04:45): Wow. Well, that's very interesting cause I know Portland cause my sister lives there.

Jessie (04:50): Okay. Have you done the Shanghai Tunnel tours?

Debbi (04:54): I have not, actually. I'll have to ask her about that.

Jessie (04:57): There's two tours. One's really good. And one's pretty lame. I'll see if I can find the info and I can email it to you, the, the good one. But what the story goes is that under the city of Portland, there are these tunnels and they're there. But they were used for shanghaiing men and putting on ships to Shanghai and back through the mid-1800s into the early-1900s. And what they would do is there would be in certain bars, they would have a trap door and it would be along the bar.

Jessie (05:29): So they would get these guys drunk. They dropped the trap door, the guys would fall down into a cell of sorts and then they would be shanghaied onto the ship. The City of Portland contests that ever happened. But then there is other evidence to the contrary and it's just a really fun thought and idea and a super fun way to put my characters in some terrible troubles. So.

Debbi (05:57): Yeah, wow there's actually a play that I think they put on every year in Astoria, Oregon called Shanghaied in Astoria.

Jessie (06:07): Really? How interesting is that?

Debbi (06:09): I went to it once.

Jessie (06:11): Have you really?

Debbi (06:12): Yeah.

Jessie (06:13): What was it about?

Debbi (06:14): Well, it's been a while, a long while. And it was about shanghaiing, kidnapping that sort of thing. It was done in a humorous way. There was almost a Rocky Horror-like feel to the audience. It had this kind of bizarre thing going on.

Jessie (06:35): Oh, that sounds like a lot of fun.

Debbi (06:37): It involved the throwing of popcorn. I remember at one point. It was all very strange. But very interesting. It was kind of fun. Shanghaied in Astoria. If you ever get to the tiny town of Astoria there on the coast.

Jessie (06:55): Wow. I definitely have to check that out. I'm going back out to Oregon in October, I do an annual writing retreat with Lori Lake and Judy Kerr and Mary Beth Benichi, MB Benichi. And we just gather at Lori's house. She lives in Portland and it's pretty much, we're a pretty quiet crew as we're sitting working on outlines or, or writing or researching stuff. And then we go and like last year I was out there and I did the Shanghai Tunnel tour. So can do some researching and stuff. So it's a lot of fun. Of course you have to hit the food carts, too.

Debbi (07:31): Of course. Naturally. so what is Shay O'Hanlon like? What does she do? That concerns her mystery solving.

Jessie (07:41): All right. So, she needed a home base. So I gave her a coffee shop and it's in uptown Minneapolis, which is kind of the, the hip neighborhood of Minneapolis, one of them. And I tried to give her a lot of qualities that were opposite me, because I didn't want to write the main characters being me. So I don't like coffee. So I put her in a coffee shop. She's pretty outgoing. I'm not really outgoing. I can do on these kinds of things I can, but most of the time, you know, I like to kind of stick to myself and if I'm in a coffee shop writing, I usually write in Caribou Coffee or Starbucks. And if somebody starts to get to know who I am, then I switch coffee shops. I'm kind of weird, but so she's very loyal and she's got a family and friends who they're her friends are her family. Her mom died in a car accident when she was very young and her dad owns a bar in a different neighborhood in Minneapolis and it's called The Leprechaun.

Her mom died in a car accident when she was very young and her dad owns a bar in a different neighborhood in Minneapolis and it's called The Leprechaun. And each friend or family member brings her different problems.

Jessie (08:48): And each friend or family member brings her different problems. In the first book, which was called Bingo Barge Murder, she's got a six foot four chain smoking, vegetarian best friend named Coop. And he's just a super polite guy. Very much anti-violence. He belongs to something called the Green Beans for Peace and Preservation and they go hug trees, so they don't get cut down. And he comes to her and he says, Oh my God, the cops are after me. They think I killed my boss by whacking him over the head with a great big bronze bingo dauber, which if anyone plays bingo, it's a bingo marker. And so the story goes is they're trying to prove Coop didn't do it. And the cops are after him or so they think, and she meets her love interest JT, who's the detective on the case.

Jessie (09:41): And so chaos ensues from there. And of course in the end it all works out. But that was the kickoff to Shay. So the second book involves a little bit of Shay's mother figure named Eddie and another character named Rocky, who's kind of like a Rain Man figure. He's in his forties. He's mentally challenged. Super smart. Like if you drop a, you know, a box of, of the toothpicks kind of like Rain Man, and he kind of knows how many are there and he has all of these weird facts in his head. So he might mention something about this light green Buick driving down the road and he'll pop off with 14 different facts about that particular car. So he's, he's interesting and unique. And he is in a little bit of trouble because he's got a toy stuffed neon green snake that the Mexican cartel is killing people for.

Jessie (10:39): So they need to figure that out. And the third book which is yeah, I can't remember the names of my own books. [laughter]. Pickle In the Middle Murder....

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Karen Neary Smithson on the Crime Cafe podcast.

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We did it again! This week, there’s a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (01:44): Hi, everyone. Today's guest is someone I got to know at a book signing we did it at a local diner, which just goes to show you can do a book signing anywhere that people will have you, at least back in the old days before we couldn't do things in public or in restaurants or whatever. Anyway, be that as it may I'm very pleased to have with me a guest who's a mystery author and an artist. You should definitely check out her website and not only for her books. I'm pleased to have with me, as I said, fellow Marylander and mystery author, Karen Neary Smithson. Hi, Karen. It's good to see you.

Karen (02:31): Hi Debbi. I'm doing great. How about yourself?

Debbi (02:33): Not too bad. Thanks. Doing, doing quite well, all things considered. And thank you for being here today. I appreciate it.

Karen (02:42): Thank you for having me.

Debbi (02:44): Sure thing. First of all, I had no idea until I looked at your website that you're also an artist. So art came before writing, is that correct?

Karen (02:57): Yes, that's correct. Yes. I majored in college in art and art education and I was an art teacher for a number of years, so I just really want to be a painter. However, I had to be a little more practical. So, but because of that, I had a lot, I had a variety of jobs because I couldn't really get an art job. So it kind of gave me a lot of different kinds of experiences. So I'm doing a painting now and I have a couple more that I'm working on at home in my studio. So.

Debbi (03:44): That's really cool that you're still painting, as well as writing.

Karen (03:49): Yeah. So it's kind of a balance. It's, it's a little hard to balance it. So I'm still trying to work that out because when I'm writing, I just basically want to write. When I'm painting, I basically just want to paint, but I just finished writing a book. So I decided this summer, I was just going to focus on painting.

Debbi (04:11): Well, that's really cool, because I kind of get what that's like. I do novel writing as well as screenwriting, and they're very different types of writing. So I always have to kind of balance which one I'm going to do when.

Karen (04:28): Right.

Debbi (04:30): Let's see. You've made some really interesting career choices. You were a child advocate, a human rights advocate and art educator. Is that correct?

Karen (04:39): Yes. yes, I did those things. Yes. I worked in Florida for a nonprofit that worked for legislation for children's issues. And, in Howard County, I was the human rights commissioner for awhile. I also worked in the foster care system and I was a program coordinator for an independent living program. And then I was an art teacher. So I've done a lot of different kinds of things.

Debbi (05:19): Well, that's fascinating. You probably know some of the attorneys that I've gotten to know in Howard County through your work for children.

Karen (05:29): Oh, well, that was in Florida where I worked for the ...

Debbi (05:35): I guess the human rights in Howard County.

Karen (05:36): Researching the legislature. Yeah. Howard County Human Rights Commission. Yeah.

Debbi (05:44): That's very interesting. Do you feel that this has led to inspiration for your work? Do you feel that the work that you did before works its way into your books at all?

Karen (05:59): I would say so. It was actually when I was working in a shelter for battered women in Florida that I first thought about writing. Because I had never thought about writing before. So that's kind of what inspired me to start writing. And from there I found out that I really enjoy doing it, so I just kept writing.

It was actually when I was working in a shelter for battered women in Florida that I first thought about writing. Because I had never thought about writing before. So that's kind of what inspired me to start writing. And from there I found out that I really enjoy doing it, so I just kept writing.

Debbi (06:28): That's great. When was that exactly when you decided to start?

Karen (06:34): It was right when I get out of college. So it was back, it was quite a while ago. It was back in the late Eighties.

Debbi (06:43): Late Eighties. So, you took some time to really work on your craft before you got published.

Karen (06:54): Quite a long time, but I was doing so many other things. So that was, I was doing other things. I was, you know, different jobs and I would write when I could get a chance, but then I was also trying to paint and then I had to get, once I started teaching, I'd get a master's degree and I had to do a lot of work, my artwork. So I always tried to fit in. But when I stopped teaching, that's when I focused more on the writing. Yeah. Which was, which was like around 2008. So.

Debbi (07:29): So, that's really when you focused more fully on writing?

Karen (07:34): Yes.

Debbi (07:36): That's very encouraging actually for anybody who's out there, who's working a job who might want to do it in their spare time and could eventually get to where you are now.

Karen (07:50): A lot of things happened. I, you know, I got married in between there and you know, all kinds of, you know, how it is with life. So many different things happen. So, but I always kept at it, but it was like a 10-year period where I don't think I wrote at all, because I was teaching, I was going to graduate school. I was spending summers over in Europe and Asia studying art history. So I wasn't writing fiction. I was just doing like writing papers, things like that. So I think it was about a whole 10 years that I, I didn't do it. So I was happy when I got back to it.

Debbi (08:38): I'm glad that you did. Your debut novel, Death in Disguise, features an Irish sleuth named Beth Getty. What inspired you to write about this particular sleuth?

Karen (08:54): She kind of evolved. Um I, I really don't. I really don't really know how I came up with her. I had been to Ireland and I am 42% Irish, but I don't, I really don't know. It's, it's interesting. I just started writing and there she was, so she's a former fashion model and married to a homicide detective, so she just, she just kind of evolved. The funny thing is I wrote the book such a long time ago, and then when I went back to it and start rewriting it, you know how it changed so many times, I think I wrote that book about five times and each version was different. So I finally got to the one that I liked. So she kind of evolved over time to be how she turned out. So.

I had been to Ireland and I am 42% Irish, but I don't, I really don't know. It's, it's interesting. I just started writing and there she was, so she's a former fashion model and married to a homicide detective, so she just, she just kind of evolved.

Debbi (10:07): Cool. Is fey a real thing?

Karen (10:12): Pardon me?

Debbi (10:13): This thing called fey.

Karen (10:16): Fey. She does. Yes.

Debbi (10:18): Where does that come from?

Karen (10:22): Well, she has a sixth sense and, in Ireland, they use the word fey, so.

Debbi (10:29): I've never heard of it before.

Karen (10:30): Oh, well, she, she really believes that she has it, her husband does not believe it. So it's sort of like, does she really have a sixth sense or does she not have a sixth sense? So she truly believes in it, and she lets that guide her through her sleuthing. However, in the sequel, there's more of that in that book. So she really starts depending on it more and believing in it more.

Debbi (11:10): I noticed you have a tendency to pick some glamorous locations, like your first one was in Los Angeles and you were dealing with some celebrities there. Your second, the one I had the pleasure of reading was set in Venice, Italy. So, can you tell us a little about each of those stories?

Karen (11:31): Okay. So well I set the one in Los Angeles because that story is well, Beth is a former fashion model. So I figured that she, when she came to this country, she would be in New York or, you know, any of the coasts. So I decided to settle her in Los Angeles and her best friend is an actress. So that's what kind of, you know, so that's why I settled her there. I just have a little bit of experience of being involved in movies and TV shows. So I've been like extras in a movie. And I kind of, I kind of learned a lot just from observing how that process is. And so it was kind of fun. And so I guess I wanted to put some of that in and then my characters are newlyweds, but they've been married for almost a year and they've never had a honeymoon.

I set the one in Los Angeles because that story is well, Beth is a former fashion model. So I figured that she, when she came to this country, she would be in New York or, you know, any of the coasts. So I decided to settle her in Los Angeles and her best friend is an actress. So that's what kind of, you know, so that's why I settled her there.

Karen (12:42): So in the second book, it picks up with them going on their honeymoon to Venice. And I always love Venice. I think the first time I went to Venice, I was probably around 17....

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Ann Aptaker on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

We did it again! This week, there’s a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (01:44): Hi everyone. Today I have with me a crime fiction author who has actually worked for a private investigations firm. In one of my favorite places, San Rafael, California. Umm. Northern California. She is the author of the Cantor Gold mystery novels, which have won Lambda Literary and Goldie Awards. She's written short stories and flash fiction, which is cool, but that's not all. She's also been a curator, art writer, and exhibition designer for galleries and museums. Her most recent book is Murder and Gold. My guest today is Ann Aptaker. Hi, Ann. Thanks so much for being here today.

Ann (02:29): Hi, how are you?

Debbi (02:31): Okay. How are you doing with all this stuff going on?

Ann (02:35): I'm hanging in there, doing what we all do with nothing but time on our hands. Those of us who are authors. We write. So that's what I'm doing with myself.

Debbi (02:48): I know the feeling. Yeah.

Ann (02:49): I'm sure you do.

Debbi (02:53): I thought it was interesting that you worked in the art world as a writer and curator, and also have a great attention to architectural and other details in your writing and really put the reader in the place that you're writing about. Think there's a connection there?

Ann (03:00): There is, especially in crime fiction of the sort of my Cantor Gold books, where she is an art thief and a smuggler. She steals art. And of course, to be a good thief, you have to have a number of skills, but one of those skills is understanding architecture because you have to be able to understand how a building works so you can get in and out of it in an efficient manner without getting caught and without, you know, sending off alarms and so on. So my years as an art historian and a curator studying not only art, but also the history of architecture, my understanding at least at that level of buildings helps me helps me understand my protagonist and how she's able to steal things.

She steals art. And of course, to be a good thief, you have to have a number of skills, but one of those skills is understanding architecture because you have to be able to understand how a building works so you can get in and out of it in an efficient manner without getting caught and without, you know, sending off alarms and so on. So my years as an art historian and a curator studying not only art, but also the history of architecture, my understanding at least at that level of buildings helps me helps me understand my protagonist and how she's able to steal things.

Ann (04:07): And in the most recent of the books Flesh and Gold, she actually does use her architectural knowledge in, in two scenes where she has to be able to maneuver in one scene. She has to maneuver through a building and in another scene, she has to maneuver on the exterior of a building through a neighborhood. So she really has to understand how buildings work.

Debbi (04:32): That's fantastic. And it really gives a person a window into what things were like then, as opposed to now.

Ann (04:40): Absolutely. The books take place in the 1950s. So she didn't have a computer. She couldn't get her, you know, a floor plan of a place. She just had to understand how the organic world works. And in this case, it's the, the built environment, how it works.

Debbi (05:01): So what inspired you to create this particular protagonist set at the particular time in New York City?

Ann (05:11): She was on my mind as a character for many years. I really can't tell you where she came from. She, she just sort of emerged. She, you know, like Athena coming out of Zeus' head whole, she just emerged whole one day, literally a million years ago. And she went through a series of sorts, types, names, and so on. At first I had her as, as, as an investigator, but because I did work for a private investigator, I got to see the criminal justice system and the court system up close and personal. And I hate to say this, but I lost a lot of faith in it as a result. So I realized that she was not on the right side of the law.

Ann (06:00): She was on the dark side of the law. And that fit very well because she's gay. And in the 1950s, to be gay was illegal. So she was an illegal person, so to speak just by virtue of being alive. So her whole character then evolved into an art thief, as opposed to say an art investigator. She became an art thief and that opened up the whole series for me not only in the crime story, in the whodunnit and all of that, but her world became clearer. Her underworld, her relationship with the law became clearer. Her life became clearer and of course it actually became sexier and much more exciting. So there you have it. My, you know, my, my confession of why she's a criminal.

She was on the dark side of the law. And that fit very well because she's gay. And in the 1950s, to be gay was illegal. So she was an illegal person, so to speak just by virtue of being alive. So her whole character then evolved into an art thief, as opposed to say an art investigator. She became an art thief and that opened up the whole series for me not only in the crime story, in the whodunnit and all of that, but her world became clearer.

Debbi (06:52): Well, as an attorney who is now retired from practicing law, I totally understand your desire, your lack of faith.

Ann (07:04): Yeah, I guess we've both seen some things that we'd rather not have seen.

Debbi (07:09): Yeah, absolutely. I'm with you there. I was going to say as a lesbian detective, she would have some trouble difficulty, run into discrimination possibly. Does she get any benefit from being associated? There was that man she's associated with in the first book that I read Criminal Gold, I guess it was?

Ann (07:32): Yes. Yeah.

Debbi (07:34): Does that help her?

Ann (07:36): Yes. Because she has to learn to survive in a world that essentially hates her. She, she survives better in the criminal underworld because it doesn't hate her. Now the criminal underworld has its own dangers and so on. I mean, it's dog eat dog and all of that. However, it doesn't judge her and she's smart and she's slick and she's, you know, she's savvy. So she survives very well in that world. She makes a lot of money as an art thief and a smuggler. She's very successful at it. And of course the best protection, whether you're on the right or left side of the law, the best protection is money. And she has enough of it to protect her insofar as it can. She still has the dangers of the cops who want to arrest her and people who want to kill her and so on, but on the whole, she's more protected than the average person, because she makes so much money and money talks. It did then. It does now.

Debbi (08:48): That's so true. Since you knew a lot about architecture and so forth, was there other research you had to do to really understand the period that Cantor was working in?

Ann (09:03): Oh, sure. I had to do a lot of research and it was, you know, being an art historian, being a professor of art history, research is something I love to do and I know how to do. So I would spend all kinds of days at the New York Public Library or online or at the New York City archives learning about that period, not only generally New York in the 1950s, but the criminal history of New York in the 1950s, but also the 1950s is not all that terribly long ago. So there were still, there were, there are still people around, I mean, my parents and so on, you know, they've since gone. But at the time when I first started writing Criminal Gold,I was able to ask relatives and, you know, friends and neighbors who remember those years quite well.

I would spend all kinds of days at the New York Public Library or online or at the New York City archives learning about that period, not only generally New York in the 1950s, but the criminal history of New York in the 1950s, but also the 1950s is not all that terribly long ago.

Ann (09:59): And, most particularly, I was able to hear how they talked because the language hasn't changed that much, but there are some differences. The slang has changed. The vernacular has altered somewhat. I mean, we can watch a movie from the 1950s or read a book and still understand. It would still be English that we know, but there are subtle differences. And I was able to get those subtle differences and use them in my books. So that was wonderful. Being able to talk to people. And I remember my parents and, you know, neighbors talking who, you know, who had that, that New York vernacular of the 1950s and that's Cantor's world. That's how she, that's her dialogue with other people.

Debbi (10:48): That's really cool. Yeah, sometimes I think it would be interesting to start a blog where all you did is talk about expressions. Do they still use these now? That kind of thing. I tend to watch a lot of old movies.

Ann (11:00): Yeah. Yeah.

Debbi (11:07): I'll hear an expression and say, "Does anybody say that anymore?"

Ann (11:14): Yeah. And some we do, and some we don't. I mean, we don't say "twenty-three skidoo", anymore, since the 1920s....

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Andrew Allan on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

We did it again! This week, there's a transcription of the show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (01:43): Hi everyone. My guest is the author of the Walt Asher thriller series. He also writes Grindhouse Pulp, which we've gotta talk about. He is an infomercial writer and director. He's also into wild cult movies, making them I believe, and runs a website called Dailygrindhouse.com. My guest today is Andrew Allan. Hi Andrew. Thanks for being here.

Andrew (02:11): Hey, Debbi. Thanks for having me.

Debbi (02:13): Sure thing. I love your resume. I mean, your bio is just fascinating to me cause I love film as well as books. I assumed that you were an infomercial writer-director before you started writing books.

Andrew (02:28): Yes. Yeah. I, my career is a little bit weird in the sense that I went to film school and then I broke into commercials while I was working on developing some movies. And then I ended up getting a job at the home shopping network, which is based here in St. Pete Florida. And it's as bizarre as everyone presumes it is, but it was a really great experience. And I learned how to do a lot of things, including sell on TV and that morphed into doing infomercials, which is selling on TV. So, and I have to say, I love it as ridiculous as it sounds, it's a great profession.

Debbi (03:08): I mean, that sounds really cool actually. What made you decide to do infomercials and what prompted you to start writing books?

Andrew (03:20): Money prompted me to start doing infomercials. One cause you know, we all need it and we all like it. But the real reason was like I said, I learned to basically sell on television when I was at HSN and that is a natural transition into infomercials. And when I decided to leave HSN, I knew I wanted to make my writing or sorry, make my living still writing and directing and producing commercials. And what was great about infomercials was that it was a niche. So instead of just saying, Hey, I'm a commercial writer and there's 10,000 other people I'm competing with, I decided to be an infomercial writer and you know, there's maybe 10 people I'm competing with, so now I can like authentically say I'm one of the top infomercial writers in the world and I've got a ton of experience and I've done thousands of commercials in the past decade and all that sort of stuff.

(04:24) So it's, it's great. And that's how that came to be. The reason I started writing books was because for a number of reasons. One, I was creatively frustrated. I had been making movies and I had been writing screenplays, which were fun. And some of them got made, some of them didn't, but all of them required collaboration. And I had reached a point where I didn't really want to collaborate anymore, at least for a while. I needed a beather and that's even on projects that I absolutely loved. A movie that I was making with my best friend. And even then, like we would get in arguments about it and I just needed a break from that. So I wanted to do something on my own and that's when I decided to write a book, I had a story kind of kicking around that I'd never been able to turn into a script.

I was creatively frustrated. I had been making movies and I had been writing screenplays, which were fun. And some of them got made, some of them didn't, but all of them required collaboration. And I had reached a point where I didn't really want to collaborate anymore, at least for a while. I needed a beather and that's even on projects that I absolutely loved.

(05:23) I finally figured out how to make that work in book form, which was the first Walt Asher book and took it from there. The other, the other part of that story is I was actually reading a book by a very famous author that we all know who I'm not going to name and not to sound arrogant, I thought it was terrible. I was like a third of the way in. And I actually caught myself saying, I can do better than this. And you know, a very arrogant thing to say for someone who's never written a book, but I decided to see if I could back it up. And I think I did. Humbly speaking. I do think I was right.

Debbi (06:07): It's funny. Cause I think a lot of writers actually do start off with those kinds of thoughts. Oh, I could do this.

Andrew (06:15): It wasn't even looking down at the writing. It was more or looking at the idea of being a writer. It was more like this story is not entertaining me. And I know enough about story structure from screenplays and things like that to where I could look at this and say, really, it was about me thinking this guy should be doing a lot better for how big their name is and how much money they're probably making.

Debbi (06:43): Yeah. well I have to give you points for originality on coming up with a protagonist who is an infomercial writer and director. But I see that you've drawn from your own background or at least I assume you have Tell us a little about Walt Asher. How is it gets into the kinds of situations that would lead to a thriller series?

Andrew (07:16): That's kind of what I had to figure out. He comes from my background. I did go down the road of write what you know, and that's because as confident as I was writing commercials and as confident as I was writing movies, I had no confidence whatsoever writing a book. So I figured I ought to, you know, rely on everything that I could to kind of get off and running with this. So, and then plus the idea of him being an infomercial writer was intriguing. You know, I had like all of us, I'd read a million books about cops and lawyers and soldiers and detectives and reporters. And I'm like, that's great. People are probably doing it better than me. So let me try something completely different. And I think it worked, it worked because I think, well, what I like about Walt and what I like about these books is that he has to rely on persuasion to kind of get by. Doesn't mean he's not physical.

I did go down the road of write what you know, and that's because as confident as I was writing commercials and as confident as I was writing movies, I had no confidence whatsoever writing a book. So I figured I ought to, you know, rely on everything that I could to kind of get off and running with this.

(08:17) There's a lot of action in the books. But he is a true amateur sleuth who has nothing to do with justice. And basically it starts out, he lives on the Rainbow River, which is a real river in Dunnellon, Florida, about two hours north of where I am and he's in the river. He goes down to his friend's house via the water and he finds his friend dead on the bank of the river with an alligator in the process of chewing them up. But it's clear that the alligator did not kill him. So one thing leads to another and the villain in the story overplays its hand and attempts to kill Walt. And it becomes very clear that he has to do something about it. It's known ... A paranoia. It's legitimate and he's going to die if he doesn't figure it out, [cross-talk] piece it together.

There's a lot of action in the books. But he is a true amateur sleuth who has nothing to do with justice.

Debbi (09:19): Let's see you also write Grindhouse Pulp. That's a series also, correct?

Andrew (09:25): Correct.

Debbi (09:26): What are those books like? Define Grindhouse first, I guess.

Andrew (09:30): Okay. So basically the Grindhouse was 42nd street movie theaters in the Sixties and Seventies and Eighties in Times Square. And you know, they kind of just show like all the really gross horror movies, the karate movies, all kinds of stuff, you know, movies that were generally looked down upon, but also provided extremely visceral thrills. And I love those movies. I think they're great.

So basically the Grindhouse was 42nd street movie theaters in the Sixties and Seventies and Eighties in Times Square. And you know, they kind of just show like all the really gross horror movies, the karate movies, all kinds of stuff, you know, movies that were generally looked down upon, but also provided extremely visceral thrills.

Debbi (10:05): I know. I love cult movies.

Andrew (10:07): I love cult movies. And so my Grindhouse Pulp series is basically me coming up with ideas for Grindhouse movies and putting them in book form. It's different than Walt. Like, the Walt Asher stuff is more thriller, mystery, thriller suspense. Grindhouse Pulp is, I push things over the edge a little bit more and you know, there's more violence and there's just, you know, just like, you'd see in those insane movies and they're really, they're books of movies I would love to see.

Debbi (10:44): Yeah. Yeah. You should check out the public domain. Cause there are some really crazy things out there. You probably already know that.

Andrew (10:55): I've seen a lot of them. That's for sure.

Debbi (10:57): Oh my gosh. Have you ever seen Manos: The Hands of Fate?

Andrew (11:01): Sadly, I have. Yes.

Debbi (11:03): Oh, my God. That's all I'll say about that. There's some movies that are just so bad, you have to see them. That's one of them.

Andrew (11:12): Well, that's a little part of my resume. I produced Herschell Gordon Lewis' last movie.

Debbi (11:19): Huh.

...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Mark S. Bacon on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

Amazingly, this week I managed to scrape up transcription show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

Debbi (01:44): Hi everyone. Our guest today started his writing career as a police reporter, and apparently one of his stories became an important part of a big lengthy murder trial. He's also done advertising and marketing and worked as a copywriter for Knott's Berry Farm. That's a familiar name to me cause I used to live in California. Not only has he written and published three mysteries and the book of flash crime fiction called Cops Crooks and Other Stories in 100 Words, but he's written business books, including Do-it-Yourself Direct Marketing, which was named Best Business Book of the Year by Library Journal and made the Book of the Month Club. His articles have appeared in major newspapers, including my own favorite, the Washington Post, and his latest novel is The Marijuana Murders. His name is Mark Bacon. Hi Mark. Thanks again for being so patient as to wait long enough for this interview.

Mark (03:17): Thanks for having me. Well, the last few months, I've just been hanging around like everybody else.

Debbi (03:17): Oh yeah, yeah. That's what we're all doing. We're all hanging around and zooming. A lot of the zooming going on. Um, let's see. I love your shirt by the way. That's great. Um, very, very festive looking. Um, and uh, you have three books out so far in the Nostalgia City Mysteries, is that correct?

Mark (03:17): That's right. I'm working on number four.

Debbi (03:20): And that's for the series also?

Mark (03:21): Correct.

Debbi (03:23): Awesome. Now you said the inspiration for the series came from working at Knott's Berry Farm. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Mark (03:31): Sure. Early in my career, I was a copywriter for Knott’s Berry Farm and I wrote ads and commercials, but occasionally I would get a chance to go out into the park and work on special events. And I got to meet some of the costumed employees who entertain the guests, people who wore those giant heads and people who were gunslingers and so on. And so I got to know a little bit about what it's like behind the scenes at a theme park. And I always thought that it might be an interesting place to hold a murder mystery or to set a murder mystery because a theme park is great during the day. But at night when everybody's gone, when the rides are stopped, everything is silent. And the only motion is the shadows of the trees. It can be a little scary and I thought it'd make a great place to kill people.

[A] theme park is great during the day. But at night when everybody's gone, when the rides are stopped, everything is silent. And the only motion is the shadows of the trees. It can be a little scary and I thought it'd make a great place to kill people.

Debbi (04:34): That's cool. I like that. Let's see. Have you ever seen the show Playing God in Central Florida, something like that. [It's On Becoming God in Central Florida.]

Mark (04:46): No, it doesn't, it doesn't ring a bell.

Debbi (04:49): It revolves around a woman who works at a theme park. That's the only reason I ask.

Mark (04:54): Oh, okay. Well there's lots of those in Florida.

Debbi (04:56): Yeah. it's, it's quite an interesting show. It was on Netflix, I think. [No, Debbi. It was Showtime. You idiot.] Anyway, hopefully it'll come back and more, well, I don't know if they canceled it or not, but anyway, be that as it may.

Mark (05:14): As I was working, I worked at the theme park years ago. And then when I finally got down to writing murder mysteries, I wanted to do a theme park, but what kind of theme park should I use? Disney has done so many different kinds, different variations. I didn't want to copy any of that. I wasn't interested in the the fast roller coaster kind of theme parks. And I live in Reno, Nevada, and the biggest event every year here is called Hot August Nights. And it's a celebration of rock and roll and old cars. And one day I'm driving down the street and I'm listening to rock and roll on the radio, and sitting next to me at a traffic light is like a 72 Mustang. And it just, all of a sudden occurred to me, why don't I do a theme park that is a recreation of a town from the 1970s. And so that's what it is. That's what Nostalgia City is. It's like taking a trip back in time.

Debbi (06:16): Very interesting. Now I'm trying to remember, were modern conveniences in this theme park. Like, did they have wifi and things like that? I can't remember now.

Mark (06:33): Well, no, because they tried to keep it as accurate to the Seventies as possible. Now guests coming in obviously have cell phones with them, but they're discouraged from using them and all park employees, cell phones, pagers, computers, anything that didn't exist in the Seventies is verboten.

Debbi (06:54): What an interesting experience that would be for most millennials, I think. Now as I understand it, each of your books was based on real life events. Can you talk about each of those events.

Mark (07:12): Sure. I'd be glad to I don't know how I got onto the idea of basing it on real events, but I think it adds to the authenticity, the realism of a story, if there's some kernel of something from the news in it, and I've done that with all the books. The second book I did is called Desert Kill Switch, and it is based on something that's really amazing that I sort of stumbled on once reading a newspaper article. And I had a hard time believing that it was true. I did some more research and I found out it was true. And the situation is that a number of car dealers in the country when they finance a used car or a new car, particularly for people who are low income and they have to pay a high interest rate, the dealers install a GPS tracking device and a kill switch on the engine so that if they miss a payment, sometimes by as few, as a few days, depending on the dealer, they flip the switch and the car's dead.

The second book I did is called Desert Kill Switch, and it is based on something that's really amazing that I sort of stumbled on once reading a newspaper article. ...  the situation is that a number of car dealers in the country when they finance a used car or a new car, particularly for people who are low income and they have to pay a high interest rate, the dealers install a GPS tracking device and a kill switch on the engine so that if they miss a payment, sometimes by as few, as a few days, depending on the dealer, they flip the switch and the car's dead.

Mark (08:26): You're not going anywhere until you make your payment. And if you don't make your payment, the dealer knows where you are because of the GPS. And he just comes down and takes your car. It bypasses the old repo man, don't even need the repo man. You know where the car is, and this is real. Now, certainly not all dealers do this. It's a percentage of them. But I did a lot of research on it. And it is in fact, what's going on in the industry. There have been some lawsuits on it. A woman in Las Vegas claimed that the dealer threw the switch, which she was on the freeway, and she narrowly avoided an accident. So I started reading all this and I thought, wow, is this a great idea to work into a murder mystery? And so I did. And that's where the name Desert Kill Switch came from.

Mark (09:24): My third book. The latest one is called The Marijuana Murders. And that is based in large part on two ballot campaigns that were conducted in Arizona to legalize marijuana. And there were two camps. One was the corporate camp that wanted to essentially set up corporate stores all over the state and sell marijuana in a very regimented way. The other camp wanted to make it more like mom and pop stores, like a mom and pop liquor store, only a mom and pop pot store. And so they both have propositions on the ballot and they were both competing with each other. And there was a good bit of animosity between the two camps. The one camp was more the sort of laid back people call them the Stoner Proposition. And then there was the corporate one that was all interested in the bottom line. And that sounded ready made to me, for a murder mystery. And so I did, and I drew a lot of information that I put in the book directly from what the campaigns were saying about each other. Strangely enough, neither campaign was successful because they were um ...

The latest one is called The Marijuana Murders. And that is based in large part on two ballot campaigns that were conducted in Arizona to legalize marijuana.

Debbi (10:47): Working at cross-purposes.

Mark (10:49): Yeah. Of course I, I built in some murders that didn't really happen. But that's, that's really what it was all about. And I also went back a little bit into the history of, of marijuana prohibition and how it got started. And I talked about, well, I had one of my protagonists talk about the Federal Bureau of Narcotics or Drugs, I should say back in the 1930s, they put out these movies that scared people about marijuana. They told everybody that that marijuana made white women want to have sex with black men. It was a racial thing. It was, it was really a horrible mess. And I, I just barely touch on that....

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Saralyn Richard on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

Amazingly, this week I managed to scrape up transcription show notes. Click here to download a copy in PDF.

[00:00:00] Debbi: Hi everyone. And welcome to the first episode of Season Six of the Crime Cafe. It's great to be back. And I can't believe I've done this for five years, really. Before I introduce our guest, I'd like to make one little announcement.

[00:00:16] As you may know, the Crime Cafe has a Patreon page. Where patrons help out with micropayments. And you get perks in return. As part of that, I've been sharing pre-publication drafts of my work. So what I'm doing as a result is broadening the Patreon page’s scope to expand into my own work as well.

[00:00:39] Most of my books are crime fiction, so it seems to fit. And anyway, the Patreon page has been rebranded as Debbi Mack's Multimedia Experience. And to know why you really have to check it out. I'm writing novels, screenplays, blog posts, reviews, and making short videos. So I'm up to a lot these days, but the podcast is still called the Crime Cafe and will continue to be called that.

[00:01:05] That hasn't changed. The focus here as always is on the absolute awesome variety of authors who write crime, suspense, and thriller stories: page turners and puzzles, if you will. So our guest for today is an award-winning author of mystery and kidlit—I gotta ask about that—who hopes change the world one book at the time. Now that is a mission statement I love. Her latest novel in the Detectives Parrott mystery series is called A Palette for Love and Murder. Her other books include Murder in the One Percent and Naughty Nana. She also teaches creative writing and literature at the Osher Lifelong Learning Institute. Our guest today is Saralyn Richard. Hi, Saralyn. It's great to have you on today.

[00:01:56] Saralyn: Thank you so much, Debbi. It's wonderful to be here.

[00:01:59] Debbi: Well, I'm so glad you are here. And I just think it's intriguing that you write mysteries and kidlit. Tell us about the kidlit. What is it? Is it a type of children's book and what made you interested in it?

[00:02:13] Saralyn:  Well kidlit is children's books. This is my first book, Naughty Nana. And it's a little bit of a mystery, too. There's a mystery that goes on inside of this picture book. And I actually have the dog, Nana. You just met her a little bit before we started this podcast. And she really was naughty.

[00:02:41] So I was making a list of all the nasty things she was doing, and I decided to turn that into a book. And that was actually the first book that I published. That's really, that's what kidlit is.

[00:02:56] Debbi: That is so interesting because I've written a young adult novel that's good for middle graders. And it also has a mystery element to it, though it is not what I would call strictly speaking a genre mystery. So I think mystery and suspense tend to work their way into other types of fiction as well. I think that's really interesting. What drew you toward writing mysteries in particular?

[00:03:23] Saralyn: I'm a very eclectic reader. But if given my choice, I'll choose a mystery over anything else.

[00:03:33] I think because I love the intellectual and emotional puzzle that a mystery presents, I think in no other genre are authors and readers so tightly connected, because the author of a mystery has to have the reader in mind throughout the writing process, because you're laying this plan, you know, with the clues and the red herrings and the, the emotional plan, also the tension and the suspense.

[00:04:09] And so there's a constant connection going on between the current writer and the future reader. And to me, that's very exciting. That's really why we write is so that we can connect to readers.

[00:04:28] Debbi: Absolutely. That is a really great explanation. I love it. And it also demonstrates how good mystery writers can be as marketers, because if you can do that in a book, you should be able to do that online. Create that sense of anticipation that comes out of what you write. If you write something that intrigues people enough, they should be drawn to what you're writing. Wouldn't you think?

[00:04:57] Saralyn: I never thought about it that way, but yes,

[00:05:03] Debbi: That remark just made me think that, um, that's good. Let's see. How would you describe your writing style to someone who has not read any of your books? Who would you compare yourself to say?

[00:05:14] Saralyn: Well, I think I've been influenced a lot by John Irving, who’s not a mystery writer, but who has really quirky characters and is a really ambitious writer.

[00:05:41] He's quite literary. And I wouldn't say that I've borrowed the literary style from him, but I have kind of a quirky sense of humor about my characters. And so my mysteries are a [00:06:00] little touch of romance and a little touch of humor and a bit of setting, you know, I'm big on setting. Try it. You'll like it, I think.

[00:06:16] I like to surprise my readers. If you're looking for a surprise, I think that you'll find it in my books. And I like to write character-driven mysteries. I think I get that a little bit from Michael Connelly because his Harry Bosch detective is so human and, and so deep. He's complex. He's not just a detective.

[00:06:46] He's a human being first. And my detective, Oliver Parrott, is the same way.

[00:06:55] Debbi: I like that. Yeah. I think character writing character-driven stories is really. It's a skill that people need to develop in order to be good writers. I mean, plot is important, but character adds something to the story that nobody else can add. Your take on people and how they interact with each other is so important in terms of telling stories and relating that, making it relatable for other people? You know?

[00:07:29] Saralyn: I led a class on that last night. It was a class for other authors on writing memorable characters. I think one of the reasons that characters are so important is that a plot is a plot is a plot. And in some ways there's nothing new about any plot. But characters are as diverse and different and unique and special as real life humans.

[00:08:03] So when you meet a character in a book that you, that resonates with you, it's like meeting a new friend or meeting a new person who's different and adds something to your life. So I think that characterization is probably the most important skill of a writer.

[00:08:26] Debbi: That's a great observation. I have been reading Murder in the One Percent and I get the distinct sense that there's a bit of satire in there. Would I be wrong about that?

[00:08:38] Saralyn: There is. I have been asked before if certain characters are certain people who are in our government today. They're patterned after that.

[00:08:55] And, and the answer to that is they weren't when I wrote the book. I, you know, the book is purely fiction and I had no intention of doing that, but I also believe that once a book is published, it no longer belongs to the author. I think it belongs to the reader. So if a reader sees something in a book like satire, then that's valid for that reader. And so, yes, it's a satire for you, then it is for me too, but, um, I really had no intention of going after anybody in our government.

[00:09:43] Debbi: I got you. No problem. I mean, if you take a little poke at the one percent, that's somewhat of a satire. You're not … nobody in particular, you know.

[00:09:55] Saralyn: I'm often asked if I am in the one percent.

[00:09:59] Debbi: Oh, but you’re not.

[00:10:00] Saralyn: I mean, how could I write, how could I write with such detail and specificity, if I'm in the one percenter, but no, I'm not in the one percent. I had to do some research too, to just ascertain exactly what is. The top one percent and you'd be surprised like worldwide, all you need is your whole net worth of $89,000.

[00:10:29] And you're in the top one percent worldwide, but that is, that's a figure that is more indicative of poverty levels in the world than it is of richness. But to be a one percenter in America, you have to have a net worth of $10 million.

[00:10:53] Debbi: Yeah. Yeah. I'm nowhere near that. Not even in the neighborhood, not even in the neighborhood next door. Um, let's see. Let's see, you've created, you created an opening scene in that book that introduced a whole lot of characters in a group setting. And I'm always impressed when a writer can manage to distinguish large numbers of characters from one another in scenes like that.

[00:11:24] Is there a process that you go through to make sure that they don't all sound alike or do you develop a bio for each one? What's your process on that?

[00:11:35] Saralyn: When I first started the book, my first draft of the book, they really were a lot alike. They’re couples who are attending a party in a very lush landscape, which is Brandywine Valley, Pennsylvania.

[00:11:55] And they were a lot alike. And then I went back as I revised the book and tried to give them distinguishing characteristics. I had a plan for how they all looked, how they all talked, and how they connected to the murder victim, and how they connected to each other,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Jeffery Deaver on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

Amazingly, this week I managed to scrape up transcription show notes. I hope to continue doing this.

Debbi (01:02): Hi everyone. Today's episode is kind of a special bonus episode. The podcast is between seasons but today's guest is well worth squeezing in. This author has written more than 35 novels, three short story collections and a nonfiction law book. He is a former journalist, attorney and folk singer. That's an awesome combination, in my book. He's been nominated and granted numerous awards and he's an international bestselling author. My guest today is Jeffery Deaver. Hi Jeffery. Thanks so much for being here today.

Jeffery (01:41): Hello, Debbi. Very happy to talk to you.

Debbi (01:43): Wonderful. So you worked in law. What kind of law did you practice?

Jeffery (01:52): Well, it's funny. People know I write criminal books, so they say, well, Jeff, you must've been a criminal [lawyer], and I say I represented banks. You draw your own conclusions from that. I was a Wall Street lawyer and did represent banks as a matter of fact, did mostly a finance law. But you know, I've always wanted to be a writer and always wanted to write commercial fiction ever since I was a young boy. And so that was my career path, but I knew that writers are not progenies. They, they need to live life a little while. You know, Mozart, I'm sure, was composing very young and Jackson Pollock was spattering paint on his mother's floor probably at a young age. But I knew I was going to have to work and make money doing other things and live life.

People know I write criminal books, so they say, well, Jeff, you must've been a criminal [lawyer], and I say I represented banks. You draw your own conclusions from that.

(02:46): And so I picked journalism first and then I decided to try law for a little while. And by the time I was in my thirties and I felt I was comfortable enough to begin writing popular fiction, I I quit those jobs and that was 30 years ago. I've been writing for 35 years, but writing full time for 30.

Debbi (03:07): It's almost eerie the way your career path has been similar to mine. I used to practice law also. When I quit, it was so nice to do what I really wanted to do, which was to write.

Jeffery (03:21): Yeah.

Debbi (03:22): It's a wonderful feeling.

Jeffery (03:24): Can I ask what, what type of law you practiced?

Debbi (03:27): I did different things. I started off with Social Security doing disability defense work, and then worked at a law firm, ended up in land use and zoning. But then from there went to EPA. I worked with the Office of General Counsel, which is a very interesting job.

Jeffery (03:48): I think it would be fascinating.

Debbi (03:50): It was fascinating. But unfortunately they moved the office to a place even farther from where I lived. I had to make a decision. So I decided to go into practice for myself for a while, which was extremely educational.

Jeffery (04:06): It was. You pick up a lot of stories for books, don't you?

Debbi (04:09): Oh my gosh. Well yeah, I could go on, but I won't. I want to talk about you. Yeah. You worked as a journalist also. In what ways do you think your work as a journalist and a lawyer affected your writing?

Jeffery (04:41): Both careers were extremely helpful. As a journalist, I learned how to write, and I went to the University of Missouri Journalism School and we could not graduate unless we could pass with a hundred percent score a test on the book, The Elements of Style by Strunk and E.B. White. And so I learned grammar, syntax, punctuation, style, cold. I learned to write in a very pedestrian style. I think of the great writers like David Foster Wallace, no longer with us, sadly. Annie Proulx, Cormac McCarthy, Saul Bellow. These are amazing stylists as they write. The words they put together are art in themselves, whatever they mean. But that's not really appropriate for the type of writing that I want to do. Now, I was a poet for a while. I guess I still write poetry occasionally. I kind of know how to make a book have a lyrical tone to it, but that's not appropriate. So I hearken back to my days in journalism when the sole goal of the written word was ease of communication between the author, the writer, the journalist, and the reader. So that's what journalism taught me. Law taught me something that has stayed with me. It didn't to me right away at the beginning of my writing career, but then I realized it and it's it's saved the bacon and it's this.

I kind of know how to make a book have a lyrical tone to it, but that's not appropriate. So I hearken back to my days in journalism when the sole goal of the written word was ease of communication between the author, the writer, the journalist, and the reader. So that's what journalism taught me.

(06:06): Whatever we see in the TV, in the movie shows, there are very few surprises in legal confrontations, as you well know or a legal deal. I'm putting a business deal together. Everything's planned out ahead of time. The trial is outlined, the witnesses are known. There may be a surprise witness, but the judge let's the other side know and there may be a continuous. So what the law taught me was for my books, I plan all my books out ahead of time and I say, I didn't do this at first. I sat down with an idea that I thought was a good one and banged out the book and a couple of them either won or were nominated for some awards, but they were kind of a struggle to write. I had I had to backtrack a lot, throw out a lot of prose I'd written, cause I didn't know exactly where it was going.

(06:59): Well then I thought, wait a minute, why don't I remember, remember what I did in law? Well, I'll just plan the book out ahead of time as if it were a trial and I've done that ever since and it saved my day. Saved the day. I now outline extensively. Eight months it took me to do the outline for The Goodbye Man. My latest Colter Shaw book, the outline was about 140 pages long and it had every element of the plot, every introduction to the character, every departure of the character, all the clues were seeded in. And it was just a it's a lifesaver. Anyone who's watching and, or listening to this, you know, this, this, this podcast. Remember, you need to know where you're going before you write a single word.

Debbi (07:50): I agree with you completely. It helps a lot to have that roadmap for where you're going because it just saves you so much time in the long run. Let's see. You were also a folk singer. Tell us a little about your time as a folk singer.

Jeffery (08:09): I was not a particularly good singer. I don't have the voice for it. And I, I'm not a natural born musician. I was a competent guitarist, but I, I didn't really care that much about the ... Well, I love to perform. Let me put it that way. Well, what I really loved was, was writing songs because there's nothing like the economy in writing and there's nothing like putting words together in a way that is, you know, almost poetic, because songs are poems. They are, whether it's rap or a traditional ballad or even popular music, it's a, it's a poem. It fits a form and the the words often, rhyme, they don't necessarily rhyme, but they often do. And that's kind of a challenge in itself. But, and I wrote a number of songs and some were recorded, but finally I forgot all about that aspect of my life.

I love to perform. Let me put it that way. Well, what I really loved was, was writing songs because there's nothing like the economy in writing and there's nothing like putting words together in a way that is, you know, almost poetic, because songs are poems.

(09:03): I don't play anymore. I've got some, some arthritis. It's not terrible, but I can't play the guitar. A little painful to do that. So I gave that up. But I, I, I've always had in the back of my mind, God, I'd like to have an album. And so I wrote a book a few years ago called XO and you can look it up in your, in your bookstore or Amazon or wherever. XO as in hugs and kisses and it's a stalker going after a young country, Western singer, sort of a Taylor Swift kind of person. And so what happens, what I say to myself, well, Jeff, you used to write songs, write an album to accompany the book, which I did. And I worked with a production team in Nashville and we recorded it. I wrote the songs, they're very kind of Paul Simon, like they're a couple of country Western songs in there. And some of the songs have clues as to what's really going on in the plot. So it was a lot of fun to do.

I've always had in the back of my mind, God, I'd like to have an album. And so I wrote a book a few years ago called XO and you can look it up in your, in your bookstore or Amazon or wherever. XO as in hugs and kisses and it's a stalker going after a young country, Western singer, sort of a Taylor Swift kind of person. And so what happens, what I say to myself, well, Jeff, you used to write songs, write an album to accompany the book, which I did.

Debbi (10:03): That's awesome. That's such a great idea. I love the way authors are incorporating music more in their brand, which is just fantastic.

Jeffery (10:11): If you're listeners and viewers are inte