The Crime Cafe

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Dennis N. Griffin on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Read along with the podcast or, if you’re in a rush, download a copy of the show notes here.

Debbi: [00:00:13] Hi, everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense, and thriller writing. I’m your host, Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two ebooks for sale: the nine-book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website DebbiMack.com, under the “Crime Cafe” link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Debbi [00:01:02]: Hi, everyone. Before I introduce my guest, I am going to give an extra thank you to my patrons, Ken MacClune and S. Koren. When this goes live, it'll be after “Thank You Patrons Day”, but this is an extra thank you to you guys. I should be thanking my patrons every day for supporting the podcast. If you're interested, just go to my website www.debbimack.com and click on ‘Crime Cafe’. Check out my Patreon page and the Crime Cafe ebooks while you're there. And now, I'm pleased to have with me today an author who writes crime fiction and true crime. A 20-year veteran of law enforcement, his latest book concerns the topic of cold cases. It's my pleasure to introduce Dennis Griffin. Hi, Dennis, how are you doing today?

Dennis [00:01:59]: Oh, hi Debbi, a pleasure to join you.

Debbi [00:02:02]: I'm so glad to have you here. I read your blog, your guest post, and that is just some powerful stuff you have in there about how unsolved murders end up being cold cases. Could you tell us a little bit about how you got involved in cold case investigation?

"I met with the mother of the deceased soldier, and she explained to me that the case—this was in 2010, so it was a three-year-old case at that time—the mother explained that she had not gotten any answers through law enforcement and through the Army CID investigations of her son's death, and she wanted us, she wanted my employer to see if we could find out any answers for her as to what may have happened to her son."

Dennis [00:02:22]: Yes. I was working as a private investigator for a firm in central New York and upstate New York. And my boss assigned me to investigate the 2007 death of a soldier from the 10th Mountain Division stationed at Fort Drum in Watertown, New York. So, I met with the mother of the deceased soldier, and she explained to me that the case—this was in 2010, so it was a three-year-old case at that time—the mother explained that she had not gotten any answers through law enforcement and through the Army CID investigations of her son's death, and she wanted us, she wanted my employer to see if we could find out any answers for her as to what may have happened to her son.

So, that was how I initially got involved. And there was a case of where her son had recently returned from deployment to Afghanistan. He'd just assigned back on the base after a 30-day leave, and this again was in 2007, and he moved off base with another soldier to share an apartment. He was there one night, the next night after they get off duty, he went out bar hopping. He disappeared that night and was never seen again. A missing persons report was filed with the local Watertown City Police Department, and the Army considered him as an AWOL after, I think, it was 48 hours.

Six months later, his skeletal remains were found in a field about three miles outside of Watertown. They were in such condition that no toxicology could be done and they couldn't establish a cause or manner of death, so everything was listed as ‘undetermined’. And that was the situation I became involved in trying to find out her son's activities that night; why he disappeared from the bar he was at and how he happened to end up in that field. So, that was my first involvement with that.

Debbi [00:05:00]: Hmm, so you were a private investigator?

Dennis [00:05:04]: Yes. I had retired from New York State and I was then working as a private investigator.

Debbi [00:05:10]: Very interesting. How do you decide which cold cases should be reopened?

Dennis [00:05:19]: Well, what I do, and I also have a blog talk radio show called Crime Wire, in which we profile some of these cold cases, and you have to use good judgment. And you always want to do a case that, if it hasn't been determined to be a homicide, if it already hasn't been ruled as a homicide, and it's either a suspicious death or possible suicide or accidental death, you have to make sure that there's enough information on the part of the survivor, the next-of-kin, her family members to indicate that there was some type of foul play.

"[Y]ou always want to do a case that, if it hasn't been determined to be a homicide, if it already hasn't been ruled as a homicide, and it's either a suspicious death or possible suicide or accidental death, you have to make sure that there's enough information on the part of the survivor, the next-of-kin, her family members to indicate that there was some type of foul play."

For example, take a suicide situation. It's very difficult, understandably, in a lot of cases, for the family to admit or acknowledge that their loved one may in fact have taken his or her own life. And in some cases, there’s substantial information to indicate that there was suspicious activity or that the so-called suicide may not have been a suicide. In other cases, you just have a gut feeling. The family member just says, “I know my son or daughter” or whatever would not have harmed him or herself. And it's unfortunate, and the people may be right, but you can't get very far as far as reopening a case if you don't have some type of information to go on or some strong indication that there was in fact a crime committed.

"And it's unfortunate, and the people may be right, but you can't get very far as far as reopening a case if you don't have some type of information to go on or some strong indication that there was in fact a crime committed."

Debbi [00:07:03]: That's interesting. I was just wondering; you were talking about how the volume of these cases seems to be rising.

Dennis [00:07:14]: Yes.

Debbi [00:07:14]: I was just wondering if there was like a triage procedure for going through all of them.

Dennis [00:07:22]: Well, basically, when people contact me, I get all the information I can from them. I do, usually, a phone interview and we of course have emails. And I request documentation. Police reports, newspaper articles, anything they can send to me to help me properly evaluate the situation and determine whether it's something I think I can be of any assistance in. When I find out that there just isn't anything there, there's really not enough information to even start an investigation, as much as I hate to do it, I have to tell the people “I'm sorry but I don't believe I can help you. I don't believe we have enough to go on here to really get into an investigation”.

So, those are difficult things. If there's any possibility at all that I think we can do some good and maybe take some type of action that might lead to additional leads being developed, or possibly law enforcement taking a second look at where the case stands, I will try to do that. I really hate to say no, although there are certain occasions where you just have no other choice. But if I can find some way that I think we can do some good, I always like to give it a shot.

"If there's any possibility at all that I think we can do some good and maybe take some type of action that might lead to additional leads being developed, or possibly law enforcement taking a second look at where the case stands, I will try to do that."

Debbi [00:08:59]: That's excellent. The two examples from your guest post were just kind of sickening to me. The idea that one of the cases went cold because of possible anti-gay bias. And the other one, the alleged suicide, where they didn't even bother to basically verify what the husband was saying. How often do you come across cases that egregious?

Dennis [00:09:28]: More often than you would think. Until I got involved with that missing soldier, deceased soldier case, I never dreamed that there would be that many, that there would be that volume of these types of cases. And I want to say I'm former law enforcement, I'm very pro-law enforcement, but what I am not supportive of is incompetence or laziness or cover-ups. The police do, probably 99.9% do one heck of a job. They're dedicated. They want to solve their cases and so on, and my hat goes off to them.

"I want to say I'm former law enforcement, I'm very pro-law enforcement, but what I am not supportive of is incompetence or laziness or cover-ups. The police do, probably 99.9% do one heck of a job. They're dedicated. ... But because law enforcement, like any other business, is comprised bottom line of human beings, ... you're gonna have isolated cases where someone may be just not as up to speed and not up to par."

But because law enforcement, like any other business, is comprised bottom line of human beings, I know they have a lot of technology today and they have computers and scientific advancements and so forth, but the bottom line is that human beings are the ones that enter the data and so on and so forth. And whenever you're dealing with human beings, you're gonna have isolated cases where someone may be just not as up to speed and not up to par. And those are what are upsetting when you find situations like that.

And I believe that the survivors of these deceased people, because of that, or in certain cases being denied resolution, they're being denied answers and their deceased loved one is not getting justice.

Debbi [00:11:09]: Hmm....

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Les Abend on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Read along with the podcast or, if you’re in a rush, download a copy of the show notes here.

Debbi: [00:00:13] Hi, everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense, and thriller writing. I’m your host, Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two ebooks for sale: the nine-book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website DebbiMack.com, under the “Crime Cafe” link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Debbi [00:01:02]: Hi, everyone. Today, our guest is a writer with one of the coolest jobs anyone on the show has had. He's an airline pilot, and his proverbial second act is as a crime writer. Author of the novel, Paper Wings, it's my great pleasure to have with me today, Les Abend. Hi Les, how are you doing today?

Les [00:01:27]: I'm doing great, Debbi. Thank you for having me on.

Debbi [00:01:31]: Well, thank you for being here. I wanted to touch on, first, your previous experiences in writing for the trade publication Flying Magazine. You weren't entirely a newcomer then to the world of writing and publishing before your novel came out, correct?

Les [00:01:51]: That's correct. Yeah, I've been writing for Flying Magazine now as a columnist for, I guess, 18 years. So, yeah, I was familiar with writing stories—the stories I write for Flying Magazine are a little bit different. They’re actual experiences and I just try to convey some insight to the general public, to the ‘flying’ public and more particularly, to general aviation pilots.

Debbi [00:02:16]: Mm, that's very interesting. So, the audience for that magazine is general aviation pilots?

Les [00:02:23]: For the most part, unless you include mom and dad. So, yeah.

Debbi [00:02:28]: (chuckles). And do you write about your experiences as a pilot?

Les [00:02:30]: I do, I do. And often times, you know, if it's not my experiences, it's other folks’ experiences or something that I'd like to highlight about the industry. But primarily, my experiences.

Debbi [00:02:40]: That's really fantastic. It was a great training ground for you, I would think.

Les [00:02:46]: It was and honestly—this is sort of a segue to where I get to the book—the objective was for me to get some notoriety so I could move forward with a novel, which has always been a goal of mine since I was young. And I sort of got sidetracked with Flying Magazine; you know, I’d send in some unsolicited articles and so on and so forth. And the editor-in-chief was looking for somebody at that very time, so it worked out very good and he wanted me to continue. He said, “most airline pilots can only write one article. I'll tell you what, if you can write another one, you might have a little bit of a future”. And well, the rest is history, so I'm very grateful.

Debbi [00:03:34]: Well, it's really fantastic and it's a wonderful demonstration, kind of like a case study of how one person got into writing a book for publication. Because you've trained yourself through writing these stories for the magazine. Something for people to think about, I think.

Les [00:03:56]: It's been very helpful and it's been a great experience. And actually, the most gratifying thing to me, as probably you as a writer and screenplay writer, is that somebody enjoys it or somebody is motivated to move forward. With my career, some of the best moments I've had is somebody taking me aside and saying, “because of you and the columns that you presented, I moved ahead with my career as an airline pilot”, so that's very gratifying to me.

"And actually, the most gratifying thing to me, as probably you as a writer and screenplay writer, is that somebody enjoys it or somebody is motivated to move forward."

Debbi [00:04:25]: That has to be a wonderful feeling. You were on CNN. What was that experience like?

Les [00:04:34]: (chuckles). Well, it was like drinking through a firehose. You know, for me to get to that point was kind of an interesting story from the standpoint of somebody from CNN Op-Ed had contacted my editor-in-chief and said, “Hey, can we use this guy to write about…” there was a subject matter they wanted me to write about and I developed the relationship. And when Malaysia 370, MH370 disappeared now, what, six years ago, I guess, they asked me if I would go in and go on camera, and I said I don't work very well with cameras but, you know, maybe some other time. And the editor-in-chief of CNN Op-Ed said, “No, we’d really like to get you on camera” and then the rest is history. I showed up in Manhattan, got lost downtown, I got to my chair about five minutes prior to airtime, I was told to look into this black thing called a camera and screen and talk to the interviewer at the time, who was Don Lemon. And you know, years later I'm still doing it, so.

Debbi [00:05:39]: Wow, that's really something. How did you learn to fly?

Les [00:05:46]: Well, I'm not sure I've learned yet, but I'm doing the best I can, even after 7,000 hours. Honestly, that's something that those of us that are consummate professionals say; we're always learning, there's always some new experience that we haven't had even with the amount of time that those of us as airline pilots have had. But you know, I began when I was a kid. I think I sat in my mother's lap in a sail plane in Elmira, New York and that really sparked the interest. But what really moved me ahead was a certificate I received when I was six years old, and the certificate said that I had flown aboard American Airlines with my spirited mother who had taken me into the cockpit, and said 20 years from that date I could appear for an interview. And I said, “okay”. And that was the end of that, and I took them seriously. And unfortunately, 20 years from that date, we had a bunch of my colleagues or my future colleagues were on furlough, but I did get an interview of sorts and well, once again, the rest is history. And 34 years later, you know, here I am as an airplane pilot, retired airline pilot now.

"I think I sat in my mother's lap in a sail plane in Elmira, New York and that really sparked the interest. But what really moved me ahead was a certificate I received when I was six years old, and the certificate said that I had flown aboard American Airlines with my spirited mother who had taken me into the cockpit, and said 20 years from that date I could appear for an interview. And I said, “okay”. And that was the end of that, and I took them seriously."

Debbi [00:07:02]: When did you start writing fiction seriously with the intent to be published?

Les [00:07:10]: When I was in first grade, actually. I don't know if I had the intent of having it being published at that time, but I wrote a little short story about an experience I had with my sister trying to get a snake, a big black snake in a box, and presented it to my first-grade teacher. And I wish I could recover that story, it's got to be somewhere, but that's kind of when I started and when I enjoyed writing.

Debbi [00:07:35]: When did you start to do it as an adult, I guess, as a pilot?

Les [00:07:40]: As a pilot, well, the time that I kept pushing myself to say, “Hey, let's make this novel goal happen.” And that was probably shortly after September 11th, I decided to write some various stories, nothing to do with September 11th at that particular time. But you know, I said let's pick a subject matter that I know a little bit about and that's when I did the unsolicited column to Flying Magazine. And then from there, I chased a lot of squirrels, one of them being my career. And I said, you know what, let's move this ahead and then eventually, I got to be thankful to CNN because it brought me an agent that said, “Why don’t you write something?” And I said, “Well, guess what, that's what I've been trying to do.” And it got me into the publishing world.

Debbi [00:08:41]: That's fantastic. Tell us a little bit about Paper Wings, what's the story about?

Les [00:08:48]: Well, I call it a mystery-suspense-whodunnit-thriller. There's some crime in it, germane to what your podcast is about and what your readers have. It incorporates all of those aspects into sort of an aviation environment without getting into the weeds, without getting technical, you know, for the average intelligent reader to understand. And I'm trying to make it a universal appeal, but like I do with the magazine columns, I'm giving you insight into the professional airline career. Some of it is not pretty, some of it is stuff I've experienced, some of it is based on things I've experienced or other folks have experienced. And I'd like to continue it as a series and my objective is to make it a series, sort of the cold cases of airline accidents or aviation accidents, I should say. Because it won't always be about necessarily airline accidents, although I'm much more familiar with that but I'm also a general aviation pilot too, so we own a small airplane, and that's the world that I started in in order to get to the career that I had for 34 years.

About Paper Wings: "I call it a mystery-suspense-whodunnit-thriller. ... I'm trying to make it a universal appeal, but like I do with the magazine columns, I'm giving you insight into the professional airline career. Some of it is not pretty, some of it is stuff I've experienced, some of it is based on things I've experienced or other folks have experienced."

Debbi [00:10:06]: Mm-hmm. Let's see. I was going to say that you do a great job of including technical terms and details without really over using jargon or over relying on it and bogging the pace down. So,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer and non-fiction author Richard T. Cahill on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Read along with the podcast or, if you’re in a rush, download a copy of the show notes here.

Debbi: [00:00:13] Hi, everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense, and thriller writing. I’m your host, Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two ebooks for sale: the nine-book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website DebbiMack.com, under the “Crime Cafe” link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Debbi: [00:01:02] Hi, I'm pleased to have with me today another lawyer-turned-writer, which in my book is always a great thing. A member of the New York State Bar, he's worked as both an assistant district attorney and a criminal defense attorney. Not at the same time, of course. And he also practiced civil law---practices, I should say, civil law. He currently represents injured workers and volunteer firefighters, which is way cool in my book. He has written and published two true crime books. His latest work is a crime fiction thriller. It's my great pleasure to have here today Richard T. Cahill. Thank you so much for being here today, Richard.

Richard: [00:01:51] Well, thank you for having me.

Debbi: [00:01:54] It's a pleasure to have you on. Your first book was Hauptmann's Ladder, is that the correct pronunciation?

Richard: [00:01:59] It is.

Debbi: [00:02:02] Which was a detailed account of the Lindbergh kidnapping. At the very beginning of the book, you talk about what drew you into writing this book. Maybe you can do that. Tell us a little about that, as a teaser for the book, for readers.

Richard: [00:02:18] Sure. Well, when I was 18 years old, I was in my freshman English class and the professor, Dr. Cotter, said that he wanted us to write a research paper. And so I thought, well, no problem. I'd read some books about, you know, the Lincoln assassination and I could do something about that. But then, being a wise professor, he then announced that it had to be something that you've never read anything about or ever done any research on. So part of me, I have to be honest, said, well, maybe I'll just do it anyway. But then I thought, now I've got to follow the rules. So I went to the library and I started looking around to see what I could find. And I found this small book and it had a whole series of stories in it, stuff like did Jesse James die the way history records? You know, did Neil Armstrong really walk on the moon? You know, stuff like that. And one of them was, did Bruno Richard Hauptmann kidnap and kill the Lindbergh baby? And as I read that particular article, I then remembered many years ago seeing an old TV show called In Search of ... with Leonard Nimoy. And all I remember was they did a show on it. And the only thing I could remember, there was a guy with a mustache who said that it was a miscarriage of justice. That's really all I remembered. So I thought this might be interesting. So I read one book. Ironically, I later found out it was written by the guy with the mustache. I didn't find it out for many years later that that's who it was. And I read two magazine articles.

[00:03:45] And I wrote what I thought was a wonderful paper proclaiming that Hauptmann was framed, didn't do it, and so forth. And it came back, and I believe I got a B or a B-plus as memory serves me. And, geez, I should have gotten an A. Well, now, looking back, seeing the paper, my lousy research and so forth, I should have gotten an F. So the professor was very kind in what he gave me. But from there I read, I saw another book not long after that on the case and I read it. And that was one by Sir Ludovic Kennedy, which took the position that he didn't do it. But his was more reasonable and didn't say some of the outrageous things that Anthony Scaduto did.

So I still maintain that Hauptmann didn't do it, but I just had different reasons why. And then I got another book from another perspective that said that he did do it. And I'm reading through this and I'm, like, it was written by Jim Fisher, called The Lindbergh Case and I'm reading. And I'm like, boy, he makes a compelling case. So I decided I would take a look at the original source material just to see, you know, what really happened. You know, satiate my curiosity. Well, 20 years later, after going through this, I thought to myself, you know what? I've always wanted to write a book, and no human being should have to go through what I've just gone through. I want to write a book and answer the question. And so I wrote Hauptmann's Ladder. And the rest, as they say, is history.

"So I still maintain that Hauptmann didn't do it, but I just had different reasons why. And then I got another book from another perspective that said that he did do it. And I'm reading through this and I'm, like, it was written by Jim Fisher, called The Lindbergh Case and I'm reading. And I'm like, boy, he makes a compelling case. So I decided I would take a look at the original source material just to see, you know, what really happened. You know, satiate my curiosity. Well, 20 years later, after going through this, I thought to myself, you know what? I've always wanted to write a book, and no human being should have to go through what I've just gone through. I want to write a book and answer the question. And so I wrote Hauptmann's Ladder. And the rest, as they say, is history."

Debbi: [00:05:05] It's fascinating. How many hours of research did it require?

Richard: [00:05:12] I couldn't calculate in hours, I can tell you that I started my research in, well, 1989. And the book came out in 2014, and I had finished writing it ... well, I finished writing the first draft in 2012. Strike that. The end of 2011. I had just finished the first draft, but it was very rough and I had to work on it. And then in February of 2012, my father passed away. And I really, me and my dad were very close and I was completely devastated. And I needed to throw myself into something just to, you know, to have something else to focus on. Because all I was thinking about was that and I couldn't be my job as an attorney because that was something that Dad and I were, you know, his father was an attorney. It was something that really made me think of him. So I thought, well, you know what? Let me revise this book. That'll take me a long time. So I threw myself into that. And in just a few weeks, I had it revised, so I said, well, I'll do another revision. That took me two weeks. So, I thought, well, let me start the publishing process. That'll take forever. And next thing I know, in June, I got the letter saying they were willing to do it. And it went from there. So that should give you the time frame. This was a lot of research over a lot of years.

"So I thought, well, you know what? Let me revise this book. That'll take me a long time. So I threw myself into that. And in just a few weeks, I had it revised, so I said, well, I'll do another revision. That took me two weeks. So, I thought, well, let me start the publishing process. That'll take forever. And next thing I know, in June, I got the letter saying they were willing to do it. And it went from there. So that should give you the time frame. This was a lot of research over a lot of years."

Debbi: [00:06:24] Yes. I was going to say. Was any of it ... was most of it secondary? Or did you actually talk to people?

Richard: [00:06:34] Well, there was a lot of it that was secondary, but that turned out to be problematic, because many of the secondary sources cite things as truth that are not true. For example, a lot of the secondary sources say that a Daily News reporter named Cassidy completely made up something, that he planted evidence. And there's no evidence to support that he didn't. But it became, it was like a rumor that was going around at the time. And some books picked up on it and printed that. And next thing you know, when magazine articles come out, they cite those books as a source.

So I went back to a lot of the primary materials. As far as talking with the people who were involved, most of them had already passed away by that. And the few who were alive, a lot of them didn't want to talk to people, because they had been misused before where they'd be contacted and then misquoted. And then the two that I did not want to contact. Well, Mrs. Lindbergh was still alive then, although she wasn't well. But I had no intention of contacting her or her family, because her other children were not even alive when this happened. And they'd been harassed many times over the years by people claiming to be their long-lost brother and so forth. And, you know, it's got to be a burden to them. They wouldn't really offer anything.

[00:07:50] And if you want the perspective of the Lindbergh children, there's a book written by Reeve Lindbergh where she makes reference to that. And it's ... when you read that, if you still want to contact or to talk about it, I think you have no heart, because she basically tells a story, how somebody came to the door once and her father went and took care of it. The other person was the son of Bruno Richard Hauptmann. He was still alive at the time, but he also didn't know anything about it. And the only thing you'd get from him would be something his mother told him. You know, mother had nothing to do with what happened. Neither did he. So I just didn't see the need to bother them.

"And if you want the perspective of the Lindbergh children, there's a book written by Reeve Lindbergh where she makes reference to that. And it's ... when you read that, if you still want to contact or to talk about it

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer and non-fiction author Peter Eichstaedt on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Read along with the podcast or, if you’re in a rush, download a copy of the show notes here.

Debbi: [00:00:13] Hi, everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense, and thriller writing. I’m your host, Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two ebooks for sale: the nine-book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website DebbiMack.com, under the “Crime Cafe” link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Debbi: [00:01:01] Hi, everyone. My guest this week has extensive experience as a journalist. He's also written two award-winning non-fiction books. In addition, he's the author of the Kyle Dawson series, one of which he's giving away to a lucky reader. I'm pleased to have with me today author Peter Eichstaedt. Hi, Peter. How are you doing today?

Peter: [00:01:26] Good. How are you?

Debbi: [00:01:28] Fine, thanks. Thanks for being with us.

Peter: [00:01:32] My pleasure.

Debbi: [00:01:34] Okay. Well, first, I have to say that I absolutely loved your guest post. And those of you who are listening, if you haven't read his guest post, just go to my blog for the Wednesday before this podcast when up on video and take a look. It's well-done. Would you describe your fiction as being---what sort of genre? Political thriller?

Peter: [00:02:00] That's a good question. Yeah, I like the thriller designation, but I also like mysteries and I would think I've tried to blend the two. I don't know how successful I've been at that. But I don't really feel like I write genre fiction, but I guess I do if you need to put it into a category, it would be, you know, like mystery, mystery-thriller. But I think a lot of people, a lot of writers kind of blend genres, so, I guess that's probably a good description of it. Usually what I've done is, you know, I feel compelled to have a story, to tell a story. And so the way I look at it is, I use the devices I need to use to tell that story. And I'm less ... I'm really more focused on that than anything else, than trying to fit into a genre. I know a lot of times, you know, when you're sending a book out and trying to find an agent or something like that, they just want to know what category. And they have all these admonitions on their website, you know, we don't represent this, we don't represent that, but we do represent this and that. So I don't know. Sometimes it's hard to make things fit.

Debbi: [00:03:43] I'm just thinking from a reader's perspective, say, who would you compare yourself to?

Peter: [00:03:49] Well, I like, I've always liked ... I'm not going to compare myself to anybody in particular. But I like the Raymond Chandler mysteries. I really like those a lot. And that's kind of been my inspiration. And, on the other hand, too, though, I like, you know, my favorite literary writer is Hemingway, although I've written it, I mean, I've read and I've followed a lot of other more traditional literary works. But I like, the reason I like Hemingway is because ... the exotic locations and there's lots of action and there's lots of tension. And I don't mean action like shoot 'em up, you know, cowboys kind of thing. But there's, I don't know, activity, action in the story. So that's what I kind of shoot for. That's my goal.

"I like the Raymond Chandler mysteries. I really like those a lot. And that's kind of been my inspiration. And, on the other hand, too, though, I like, you know, my favorite literary writer is Hemingway ... the reason I like Hemingway is because ... the exotic locations and there's lots of action and there's lots of tension."

Debbi: [00:04:55] So sort of mystery-thriller.

Peter: [00:04:57] Right. Right.

Debbi: [00:04:58] With a hardboiled sensibility, let's say.

Peter: [00:05:01] That's a good way to describe it.

Debbi: [00:05:05] Great.

Peter: [00:05:05] Through everything I've said.

Debbi: [00:05:10] Let's see. Tell us about Kyle Dawson and what inspired you to write the series.

Peter: [00:05:16] Well, I wanted to ... I've always thought that journalists would make good main characters and stories. And the reason is that, as I said, I've read a lot of detective fiction. And I've been a reporter for my entire life. You know, until I retired. And, you know, I started off as a reporter at the age of 16. And with my own personal experience and then looking at it and then reading a lot of private eye fiction, I realized that journalists do a lot of the same work. And we have a, you know, we're not motivated by finding out something for a high-paying or secret client. But what we are interested in is finding the same information and verifiable so that we can print a story. And there's a lot of similarities, especially if you're an investigative reporter.

"I've always thought that journalists would make good main characters and stories. And the reason is that, as I said, I've read a lot of detective fiction. And I've been a reporter for my entire life. ... I realized that journalists do a lot of the same work. ... I thought we do so much of the same work and we have a lot of the same risks, you know?"

[00:06:33] So that's my reason for using journalists as a main character. I thought we do so much of the same work and we have a lot of the same risks, you know? I've been threatened and I know other journalists have, and they'll be reluctant sometimes to write a story, because you know what's going to happen or the people that are the subject of your story, you know what's going to happen. And they don't want this information to be made public. So you're taking a risk. Anyway, between those two comparisons, that's why I always thought a journalist ... I said, well, they're just as exciting and in the same kind of dangerous work as a private eye would be and kind of maybe like a public eye, I guess I would say.

Debbi: [00:07:37] That's a good term. I like that. Did you intend from the start to write a series about this character?

Peter: [00:07:45] Well, that's been my idea, initially. I thought I could take this character and put him in a lot of different situations and a lot of different places and, having traveled as much as I have, you know. I started off with ... I didn't start off with, but my book, Enemy of the People, is set in northern New Mexico.

[00:08:24] And the title was, you know, inspired by our president, who called journalists "enemy of the people", because they were digging up dirt, not necessarily digging up dirt, but they weren't writing down or saying what he said verbatim. And they were also questioning it and checking on the facts and seeing that our president kind of lives ... you know, it's gone on so much now, it's kind of obvious that he lives in his own fantasy world. And a lot of what he says doesn't relate to reality. And it's not something that's very hard to dig up. And so, that the whole notion of calling journalists "enemy of the people" just rankled me so badly. You know, we are the representatives of the people. Because of our president calling journalists the enemy of the people, I felt compelled to write a story that showed that they were, in fact, not enemies, but they were representatives or upholders and protectors of the people.

About Enemy of the People: "[T]he whole notion of calling journalists 'enemy of the people' just rankled me so badly. You know, we are the representatives of the people. Because of our president calling journalists the enemy of the people, I felt compelled to write a story that showed that they were, in fact, not enemies, but they were representatives or upholders and protectors of the people."

Debbi: [00:09:41] I like that. I like that a lot. Right now, you have two or three books in that series?

Peter: [00:09:50] Right now, I have two. I've just finished up a third, which is actually a prequel. It takes my character, Kyle Dawson, and puts him in Afghanistan, and it takes place sequentially before these other two novels. So, I don't know. I'm not selling it as a ... Well, it's with an agent right now. So I don't know if they're gonna want to sell it as a prequel, but just as another part of the series. But it takes place in advance. In advance of the other two. And the reason I set it in Afghanistan was I really wanted dearly to write a book about Afghanistan, in a fictional way. I have a nonfiction book about Afghanistan, and it's called Above the Din of War. And I spent two years as a consultant working in Afghanistan. I really like the country and the people, of course. But I just, I always, like I said, I wrote a nonfiction book about it. Well, I wanted to set a fictional book there. So that's how that came about.

Debbi: [00:11:20] I was gonna say your fiction does seem to be informed to a great extent by your nonfiction. Do you require much additional research when you're writing fiction?

Peter: [00:11:33] You know, I really don't. I pretty much draw on my experiences and they shape, you know, or provide a good backdrop for what I want to write. And, you know, I was looking at other works of fiction that are set in foreign locations and, depending on the writer, you know, it varies a lot, but generally, the way fiction is structured, the focus is on the characters and their interactions. And there's less of an emphasis on, you know, detailed descriptions about the location. You know, that's not always true. I know one can come up with many exceptions to that. But the focus of the story is always the characters and secondarily is the backdrop. You know, I know a lot of times, too, somebody like Hemingway setting his story in Pamplona,...

Debbi Mack interviews mystery writer Daniella Burnett on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Read along with the podcast or, if you’re in a rush, download a copy of the show notes here.

eDebbi: [00:00:13] Hi, everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense, and thriller writing. I’m your host, Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two ebooks for sale: the nine-book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website DebbiMack.com, under the “Crime Cafe” link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Debbi: [00:01:02] Hi, everyone. Before we get started, I'd like to express my thanks to S Koran for becoming our latest Patreon supporter. Every little bit helps, you guys. So thank you so much. Having said that, our guest is making a return visit today. A poet as well as a mystery writer, she's the author of The Emmeline Kirby/Gregory Longdon mystery series. And her name is Daniella Burnett.

[00:01:31] Hi, Daniella. It's good to see you again.

Daniella: [00:01:34] Hi. It's nice to be back.

Debbi: [00:01:36] Awesome. So tell us a little bit about your latest book in the series.

Daniella: [00:01:42] Well, my latest book is called When Blood Runs Cold. And my series is the Emmeline Kirby/Gregory Longdon series. It's about a journalist and a jewel thief. And, in this book, we deal with a diamond, spies, and poisonous lies.

Debbi: [00:02:04] Well, that's interesting.

Daniella: [00:02:07] A lot of elements there.

Debbi: [00:02:09] It seems to me that each book brings Emmeline and Gregory a bit closer together. At the same time, all these secrets from the past crawl out of the woodwork and seem to conspire to keep them apart or at the very least, threaten them. Do you come up with these complications as you write each book? Or were they planned from Book One?

Daniella: [00:02:33] They were actually planned from Book One because it is a series. I leave a little something in one book and develop it a little bit more. Give you a little hint for the next book. So it was planned from the beginning. And in this in this particular book, Emmeline and Gregory are engaged. But as you noted, there is a lie. Like everything Emmeline thought about her life, all of a sudden she discovers it's been a lie. And that does have an impact on the dynamic of their relationship and to the rest of the story. And a number of the characters that they do meet. And it also has another element, something from Gregory's past. This ruthless entrepreneur named Alastair Swanbeck has come back for revenge against Gregory for things that should have been left alone.

"I leave a little something in one book and develop it a little bit more. Give you a little hint for the next book. So it was planned from the beginning. And in this in this particular book, Emmeline and Gregory are engaged. But as you noted, there is a lie."

Debbi: [00:03:29] Uh-huh. Yes. Yes, I noticed Swanbeck is introduced right there at the beginning, along with the fact that Emmeline's parents were murdered.

Daniella: [00:03:44] Yes. She discovered that at the end of the previous book, A Checkered Past, because her parents were journalists like she was, and she had been told that they had been killed while on assignment when she was five years old. So that's what she had believed up until this point. But at the end of A Checkered Past, we discover that her parents were really murdered. So that's the way When Blood Runs Cold starts out. She's determined to follow their killer, even though it has been 25 years since her parents died.

Debbi: [00:04:22] So that's a very cold case. So I take it you're one of those writers who likes to create big biographies for your characters before you get started on the work?

Daniella: [00:04:34] Well, I mean, I think for any author, it's important that the author knows everything about each character so that you know how a character would react in a certain situation. You know what would make them angry? You know their foibles, their good qualities. That's important for an author to know. So that as you're creating stories, the readers, once they've made that connection, they'll say, oh, she's in trouble because she has a short temper or because of this. So it's very important that an author develops the biographies of each character, especially for me in terms of a series. I have the ongoing Emmeline and Gregory, and that's important to know their backgrounds, to see how it affects their life now.

"I think for any author, it's important that the author knows everything about each character so that you know how a character would react in a certain situation. You know what would make them angry? You know their foibles, their good qualities. That's important for an author to know."

Debbi: [00:05:29] Are you more of a plotter or a pantser? I think I know the answer.

Daniella: [00:05:34] Well, I'm definitely a plotter. I don't do an outline, but I do like to plot out each book in my head before I start, because I like to have that basic skeleton of the plot to follow. As I'm writing, I may think, I may come up with another idea, but at least I have that basic line to follow. And I always know from the beginning who the killer is. I think that for me it's important, because then I can put the red herrings, I can put the important clues if I know who the bad guy is from the beginning.

"I'm definitely a plotter. I don't do an outline, but I do like to plot out each book in my head before I start, because I like to have that basic skeleton of the plot to follow. As I'm writing, I may think, I may come up with another idea, but at least I have that basic line to follow."

Debbi: [00:06:09] Yeah, I know what you're saying. Yeah, I have a tendency to work the same way. You hold down a regular 9-to-5 job and write books. I think that's remarkable. What kind of writing schedule do you follow, and do you have a certain number of hours or number of words you like to try to reach?

Daniella: [00:06:28] Well, finding the time to squeeze in to write. That's the most difficult thing for me, because as you said, I do have a full time job, so I can only write in the evenings when I come home from work. And on the weekends, because during the day, that's impossible because I have my job to do. So, you know, some days when I come home from work, I'm tired or my brain is not functioning, then I can only write a paragraph. And that's frustrating for me because I have so little time to begin with. And then other days, you know, the muse is working and I can write two or three pages. So I don't really have you know, I know some people say they want to write a thousand words a day. It's whatever I can squeeze in to do because of my job.

Debbi: [00:07:16] I can fully appreciate that. This latest book and the last one really gets into some international political territory.

Daniella: [00:07:26] Yes.

Debbi: [00:07:28] How much do you rely on current events for your material?

Daniella: [00:07:32] Well, I mean, like with this story in particular, it deals with a Russian defector in London who is killed. And as we know from ... it's well-documented that Putin always considers defectors or those who are his opponents as traitors. So, I mean, that obviously that aspect of my story takes from real life. And then I develop my own tale based on that essential little nugget. So, yeah, I mean, in terms of inspiration, current events impact it, especially for Emmeline being a journalist. Of course, current events to a certain extent will affect my storyline because, you know, a journalist is curious, always wants to know about things, is always following up leads. So she would be, you know, current events have to impact it in some way because of her job.

"Of course, current events to a certain extent will affect my storyline because, you know, a journalist is curious, always wants to know about things, is always following up leads. So she would be, you know, current events have to impact it in some way because of her job."

Debbi: [00:08:32] Yes, yes. It's just that some people, some authors try for a kind of timeless quality to their work. And some people are very rooted in a particular period. When would you say this is taking place?

Daniella: [00:08:46] Well, my books are set in 2010. So it's contemporary, but it's not, you know, today. So it is a few years back. But, you know, some of the same issues still are ongoing in terms of the Russians, you know, with the defectors and Putin, as I mentioned. For example, back in 2006, a former FSB agent, Alexander Litvinenko, was poisoned at a hotel in London after a meeting with two Russians. So to that extent, you know, some of that gave me a spark of an idea, because there are a couple of poisonings in my book. So, you know, that was an idea. So it is rooted in today, but it's not based on a specific event, because I'm developing my own story.

"Well, my books are set in 2010. So it's contemporary, but it's not, you know, today. So it is a few years back. But, you know, some of the same issues still are ongoing in terms of the Russians, you know, with the defectors and Putin, as I mentioned."

Debbi: [00:09:39] Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the book is going to outlive you. So I mean, you hope it's something that people will read 50 years from now and still love.

Daniella: [00:09:50] Yeah, I hope so.

Debbi: [00:09:51] Because of the timelessness of the themes. Of relationships.

Daniella: [00:09:55] Right. Exactly that. I mean you have these contemporary issues, but you have these elements of everyday life: jealousy, love, hate, greed. You know that all,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Andy Caldwell on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Read along to the podcast or, if you’re in a rush, download a copy of the show notes here.

Debbi: [00:00:13] Hi, everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense, and thriller writing. I'm your host, Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I'll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two ebooks for sale: the nine-book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website DebbiMack.com, under the "Crime Cafe" link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You'll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Debbi: [00:01:04] Hi, everyone. Our guest today worked as a police officer and detective with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, up until his retirement. He's investigated a number of high-profile cases, including the armed robbery and kidnapping case brought against O.J. Simpson. His book, Room 1203, is the true crime story of that O.J. case. The one from Nevada. That book has also provided the basis for a documentary, O.J.: Guilty in Vegas. It's with great pleasure that I bring you Andy Caldwell. Hey, Andy, thanks for being here.

Andy: [00:01:45] Thank you so much, Debbi. Thank you for that kind introduction and I thank you for your time today.

Debbi: [00:01:50] Well, I appreciate your being here very much. Before we talk about your book, I have to say I was heartened by your philosophy of criminal justice. I like the emphasis on seeking solutions rather than vengeance. Has that been a.. has that been a difficult position to take in any way?

Andy: [00:02:13] Yeah, sometimes, you know, because sometimes even in the law enforcement community, people get frustrated with suspects who are committing crimes and you just want them to pay right now. And sometimes taking, I guess, a more whole approach or whole community approach, isn't always the most palatable to other people.

Debbi: [00:02:37] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I can see where it would be tough. But I like the way you approach it. And, in some ways, it reminds me of Buddhism.

Andy: [00:02:51] Well, I guess one of the things that I always embraced was the fact that when people commit crimes, they've gotta be held accountable for it. But it doesn't mean we have to hate them. And sometimes there's this desire to instantly be angry with the individual. And sometimes all it does is create barriers to actually holding them accountable and then trying to help them back on their feet. And if we can't help them back on their feet, then we just create a perpetual problem in society. So at some point in time, we've got to try to help some people.

"I guess one of the things that I always embraced was the fact that when people commit crimes, they've gotta be held accountable for it. But it doesn't mean we have to hate them."

Debbi: [00:03:26] I couldn't agree with you more. I think that's great. How long were you with the Vegas police and how much of that time was as a detective?

Andy: [00:03:35] So just under 20 years, and I spent about nine years as a detective? You would think I would know that right off the top of my head. But yeah, it was about nine years as a detective.

Debbi: [00:03:50] Well, sometimes you just gotta do the math. I know the feeling. How did you end up assigned to investigate O.J. Simpson?

Andy: [00:04:00] Well, so I was assigned to the robbery-homicide bureau. I specifically worked robberies. And I would love to tell you that it was because I'm a crack investigator. And they said, hey, it's O.J. Simpson, we need their best guy on the job. But the reality was the crime occurred in the area of town I was primarily responsible for. It was the type of crime I was responsible for. So when it came out, it just automatically was grounded to me.

Debbi: [00:04:29] Uh-huh. So you sort of lucked into it, so to speak.

Andy: [00:04:33] I guess it depends on your definition of luck. But yes, it's, you know, it's always been a hard case, because it's so simple at face value. And yet it ends up being somewhat of a crowning achievement of my career, where so many of my other cases were so much more complex, so much more enjoyable. And yet this one ends up being the one I'm remembered for, which, you know, it can be a blessing and a curse at the same time.

"[I]t's always been a hard case, because it's so simple at face value. And yet it ends up being somewhat of a crowning achievement of my career, where so many of my other cases were so much more complex, so much more enjoyable. And yet this one ends up being the one I'm remembered for, which, you know, it can be a blessing and a curse at the same time."

Debbi: [00:04:59] Yes. Yes. I thought you came up with a really cool idea, having your book giveaway done on Facebook, where you challenge readers to post the funniest real O.J. Simpson quotes?

Andy: [00:05:13] Yes.

Debbi: [00:05:15] And I assume you're picking a winner from among those who enter in that manner.

Andy: [00:05:21] Yeah. So luckily my wife, she put it on Pinterest also, and I think she did something on Twitter as well. She gave me a list of everything she had on her end. And we had about, I think, about 50 quotes to choose from. But yes, last night I went through and I picked the funniest line and then the one I actually think would probably be the best to win the contest with.

Debbi: [00:05:46] Can you share some of the best of the bunch with us?

Andy: [00:05:50] So I think my wife actually found the funniest one. And I just, I can't let her win because that's just not fair. She found one where he said---and this is O.J.---saying, "I don't understand what I did wrong except live a life that everyone is jealous of." And I thought, what an absurd thing to say. And so, of all the quotes I had, I thought that one was the funniest, but it's my wife, so she couldn't have it.

From the O.J. quote contest: "In America, you get as much justice as you can afford."

[00:06:25] But I think the more appropriate one, you know, given some of the gravity of who he is and the things he's done in his past. Kathleen Templeton wrote, "In America, you get as much justice as you can afford." And that, in fact, was one of his quotes. And I thought, okay, that takes the cake. So that's the one I'm going to give the book and subpoena to.

Debbi: [00:06:51] Oh, my goodness. Well, congratulations to the winner. That's a good one. Oh, my gosh.

Andy: [00:06:58] Yes.

Debbi: [00:07:00] Let's see. What was it like to be part of that investigation?

Andy: [00:07:06] You know, it's hard because oftentimes, you know, people instantly associate him with the homicide case in Los Angeles. In fact, even today, if I tell somebody I was the detective who put O.J. Simpson in prison, they'll instantly look at me and they'll say, well, you don't look that old. And you've got to process through your mind what people think he went to prison for. So there's so many misconceptions about being associated with the case.

[00:07:35] So even getting assigned the case at the time, I think my partner and I knew that there were going to be problems associated with it. You know how it was gonna be scrutinized, how we were going to be watched. And then people were going to think that we treated him differently because of, you know, presuppositions we held based on what happened in Los Angeles. So, you know, being involved in the case was, it truly was a roller coaster ride. And I guess I should say, has been a roller coaster ride, because even today, you know, I still do the occasional interviews to promote the book. It was hard promoting the book, because when we signed the contract for the A&E special, our ability to promote the book really was reduced drastically.

"So even getting assigned the case at the time, I think my partner and I knew that there were going to be problems associated with it. You know how it was gonna be scrutinized, how we were going to be watched. And then people were going to think that we treated him differently because of, you know, presuppositions we held based on what happened in Los Angeles. So, you know, being involved in the case was, it truly was a roller coaster ride."

Debbi: [00:08:25] Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. Can you give us a teaser of what you talk about in the book?

Andy: [00:08:33] Sure. You know, I think most people when they find out or have an interest in the topic of O.J. Simpson and true crime, you want to know about about the crime. So if I may give you a teaser, I'm going to tell you that the public perception that he stole his own property back is absolutely incorrect. And I would love for people to actually take the time and read the book and see how that's not correct. In fact, how he represented himself even at his parole hearing was just factually not accurate. It's just there was no truth or basis in the truth. But I also think I'd like to share that in the book we talk about some of our personal interaction with him and some of the odd behavior he displayed. Not just with me, but also with my partner throughout the investigation that I think is fascinating when you talk about it. Unfortunately, it's funny. And I guess I make light of it in the book. And, you know, I've heard some feedback that we shouldn't have made light of it. But, you know, and it was funny at the time and I still think back and it was funny. It's funny now.

"[T]he public perception that he stole his own property back is absolutely incorrect. And I would love for people to actually take the time and read the book and see how that's not correct. In fact, how he represented himself even at his parole hearing was just factually not accurate. It's just there was no truth or basis in the truth."

...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Burl Barer on the Crime Cafe podcast.

 

 

 

Read along to the podcast or, if you're in a rush, download a copy of the show notes here. And between you, me, and the rest of Internet, Burl is hilarious! Give it a listen folks. And, like I said, feel free to read along!

Debbi: [00:00:12] Hi, everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I'm your host, Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I'll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two e-books for sale: the nine-book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website DebbiMack.com under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You'll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Debbi: [00:01:02] Hi everyone. Before I get started, I'd like to give a hale and hearty shout-out to my first Patreon contributor Ken MacClune, not to mention his awesome wife, Karen, and their amazing daughter, Ella. Okay, I suppose I should, in the interest of full disclosure, say that Ken is my brother. But having given support to my Patreon page, to this podcast, he has gotten his free copy of---well, not free, but for the support, he has gotten with that a copy of my fourth Sam McRae novel, which is coming out this month, Deep Six. And by taking advantage of a limited time special offer, he was able to get this. So more of those are coming. So keep your eye on that Patreon page. I'll try to keep you updated as fast as I can. And, on that note, I'd like to introduce a very special guest. Not only is this author an investigative journalist and true crime author, he is also an Edgar award-winning author of the Saint novels, which is really cool in my book. How many of you remember the episodes with Roger Moore? I know I do. It's my pleasure to have with me today Burl Barer. Hi Burl. How are you?

Burl: [00:02:26] Better and better every day, in every way.

Debbi: [00:02:28] That's great.

Burl: [00:02:30] There was a French psychologist named Emile Coue. And he believed that if you stood in front of the mirror and told yourself that like 20 times, that sooner or later you'd believe it. I've been trying it now for about 30, 40 years. I'm not convinced, but I'm giving it a shot.

Debbi: [00:02:49] Yeah, it's very interesting because I've heard about that. It's kind of like ... Hmmm? Really?

Burl: [00:02:54] Positive reinforcement.

Debbi: [00:02:58] I think there's something to that. I think there's a lot to this whole idea of visualization and so forth.

Burl: [00:03:04] I know. I've visualized a lot of really interesting things in my life that I'd probably be arrested for. But in the world of visualization, all things are okay.

Debbi: [00:03:14] There you go. I was looking over your bio and bibliography and I was deeply impressed by the range of your work. Did you start your career as a journalist, in journalism as a writer?

Burl: [00:03:31] Yeah, well, it's hard to say what we want to admit. I started my career as a small child. My mother was a newspaperwoman and my father smelled of elderberries. We have journalism and that sort of thing in the family history, family background. My mother was a newspaper woman. Her brother Sid Copeland wrote for Life Magazine, Time magazine. He was later Vice President of Cold & Weber public relations. My sister was a gossip columnist, I mean, uh, society editor. That's what you want to call it. And she wrote books and my cousin Helen writes books. My cousin Shoshana Barer writes books. I mean, it's kind of, you know, if you grow up in a family of opera singers, being an opera singer is perfectly normal. You grow up in a family of writers, being a writer is perfectly normal. I can't fix a car. If you want me to do that, I'm terribly sorry. I don't know how. That's why I admire people who can, but I can't. And it's probably the other way around, too, that people who admire those of us who can write books, and we would say, "Gee, I wish I knew how to fix this car or how to repair this vacuum cleaner." But everybody has their gifts.

[00:04:53] So I started off doing a talk show on the radio. On KUJ in Walla Walla, Washington. Because they wouldn't let me on the high school radio show, because I was only a freshman or something. And they liked seniors.

[00:05:08] I'm a senior now. They could have me on a high school show. So then I did the high school radio show, one thing led to another, and the next thing I know, I was a rock and roll disc jockey. So I played the hits and wrote articles and I decided... hmm, I think I'll write books now. Might be a fun thing to do.

[00:05:31] I was kind of like king of all media. I wanted to be in all the different forms of media and I wanted to own them. I wanted to be comfortable enough or ignorant enough within their frameworks to do something new, do something different. Tweak it somehow, which is very nervy. It's the kind of thing you do when you don't know any better. You get away with it.

"I wanted to be in all the different forms of media and I wanted to own them. I wanted to be comfortable enough or ignorant enough within their frameworks to do something new, do something different."

Debbi: [00:05:59] God, I know.

Burl: [00:06:00] Orson Welles used to talk about that, that you want to keep that feeling of you don't know how bad you are, really. You don't know what you're doing wrong, you know. So when you don't have that, oh, gee, I'm going to embarrass myself by writing another book. It'll be out there to shame me forever. Just go ahead. You try all sorts of things. I'll give an example. My first true crime book. Man Overboard, the counterfeit resurrection of Phil Champagne. Now, traditionally, the rules in true crime, which aren't observed anymore whatsoever, is just the facts. It's like you're Joe Friday. Just the facts, ma'am. It was rather dry stuff. You don't really read true crime books where the author has any [illegible] this could have been anybody.

"Orson Welles used to talk about that, that you want to keep that feeling of you don't know how bad you are, really. You don't know what you're doing wrong, you know. So when you don't have that, oh, gee, I'm going to embarrass myself by writing another book."

[00:07:01] But, I decided, well, this my book. I'll write it the way I want. And so I break the fourth wall, I talk to the characters in the book, I talk to myself. I make smart-ass comments. I do all the things that true crime writers aren't supposed to do. And it was a difficult thing structuring the story, because if I told the story in actual order, it would become increasingly boring as it went on. I had to move things. Go back and forth in time in order to put a climactic chapter at the climax rather than three pages in.

[00:07:39] I went, well, who knows what's going to happen with this book? And the first attempt to publish it, they sent me the galleys and I noticed there were several chapters missing. And they said, well, can't we just publish it like that? Do we have to move a lot of chapters? I think so. So it came out and the wrong file was printed. The uncorrected version was printed, and this is a tragic story. E.W. Count, who is the Edgar award-winning author, I had sent the manuscript to her. I said, E.W. We're on a first initial basis. E, I said. Will you read this book and give me some hope because you are a true professional and what do I know? So she reads it and very astutely says the first 19 pages don't work. Got to redo the first 19 pages. And she graciously wrote out all the changes that she would make. Bless her heart. So I made those changes and that was not the file that was printed. They sent the wrong file to the publisher. And the book came out with all the typos and everything wrong in the first 19 pages. Poor E. Poor E. E no doubt felt that I had slighted her dreadfully. You know, that I did, well, "Here's your suggestions. I don't even deal with them."

[00:09:19] And the late great Jack Olsen, who was on the Edgar committee, violated protocol by taking me aside and saying, Burl, you were one vote away from an Edgar award nomination for Man Overboard. But there was one vote against you. I said, "I bet it was E, wasn't it?" About those first 19 pages, isn't it? He goes, "Yeah."

Debbi: [00:09:43] I am dying trying not to just keep laughing throughout this.

Burl: [00:09:46] Go ahead and laugh. It's all right.

Debbi: [00:09:48] Oh, my gosh.

Burl: [00:09:51] The book was nominated for Best True Crime Book of the Year at the World Mystery Convention. Didn't win, by the way, but I was nominated for it. So makes it sound really impressive. People think you won, if you were nominated. Ann Rule, bless your heart, was nominated. Get this. She was nominated the same award. Her book, Dead by Sunset, I think was the name of her book, was nominated. My book was nominated. She says, "Oh, Burl. I just know you're going to win." That was my Ann Rule impersonation. And I said, "No, Ann. You're going to win." And I think she won. I didn't. But the point being, if you read Man Overboard, guess who shows up as a character in the book? Ann Rule, because her daughter and Phil's Champagne's daughter were best friends. So Ann's in my book. Now, her book is about this woman who worked for a law firm, which has the name Barer in the title. That was with my brother's law firm, so my family is in her book. Her family is in my book. Almost incestuous.

"So Ann [Rule]'s in my book. Now, her book is about this woman who worked for a law firm which has the name Barer in the title. That was with my brother's law firm, so my family is in her book. Her family is in my book. Almost incestuous."

Debbi: [00:11:07] I was just going to use that word.

...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Tony Knighton on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Check out the show notes below, or if you’re in a rush, download a copy!

Debbi: [00:00:08] Hi, everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense, and thriller writing. I'm your host, Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I'll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two e-books for sale. The nine-book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my web site DebbiMack.com, under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You'll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Debbi: [00:00:59] Hi everyone. I'm very pleased to have with me today a crime writer who's also a working fireman or firefighter, if you will. He's a lieutenant with the Philadelphia Fire Department. If you'd like to enter a giveaway for a copy of his novel Three Hours Past Midnight, just go to my blog and look for his guest post. You can also find the guest post on my Patreon page. So, in any case, here he is, Tony Knighton. Hi, Tony.

Tony: [00:01:34] Hi, Debbi. How are you doing?

Debbi: [00:01:36] OK. How are you today?

Tony: [00:01:38] Oh, swell. How about you?

Debbi: [00:01:40] Not bad. Not bad at all. You know, it's Friday and the weekend's coming.

Tony: [00:01:48] Yeah, yeah.

Debbi: [00:01:48] Let's see. I am reading your novella, Happy Hour and Other Philadelphia Cruelties? I have to say, the first chapter left me breathless.

Tony: [00:01:59] Oh, thank you.

Debbi: [00:02:02] You write a very fast-paced story. Would you say that's part of your style?

Tony: [00:02:09] Yeah. Yeah. That's fair enough.

Debbi: [00:02:12] Yeah. How would you describe your writing generally? Do you consider yourself hardboiled or noir? Is there a difference?

Tony: [00:02:22] Sort of both. I heard Duane Swierczynski, another Philadelphian, talking about the subject, and he says the difference all counts on the ending. If it's a positive ending, you just wrote hardboiled. If it's a negative ending, you write noir. I think that's at least an interesting explanation. My stories are a little bit of both, I think. Happy Hour is definitely noir.

"If it's a positive ending, you just wrote hardboiled. If it's a negative ending, you write noir. I think that's at least an interesting explanation. My stories are a little bit of both, I think."

Debbi: [00:03:16] So a little bit of both then.

Tony: [00:03:19] Yeah.

Debbi: [00:03:20] Do you focus more on mystery or kind of like thriller-type stuff, suspense.

Tony: [00:03:26] Most of my stuff I guess falls into the category of crime fiction. My novel sort of ended up being a mystery, too. But I've always been a little bit more interested in will they get away? That just seems to be my preference or the kind of stuff I end up writing.

Debbi: [00:03:58] Gotcha. So tell us about Three Hours Past Midnight. What is the book about?

Tony: [00:04:09] That story ... it features a character that I wrote in a short story. And in that story ...

Debbi: [00:04:20] You're trailing off a little bit, sometimes.

Tony: [00:04:23] I'm sorry. Yeah. The novel features a character that I started in a short story, and by the end of the story, the guy was still alive. Then I realized I kind of liked him. And I'd had an idea for the novel. The crime involved in the novel and I just sort of have never been able to see who would do it. And I see this guy now. It's basically two guys who are burglarizing the home of a crooked politician who ended up in jail. They believe there's a wall safe and a lot of money in it. They indeed find the safe and get away with it. And, very shortly, one of them is killed and the safe [illegible]. The rest of the book is basically the other guy, main guy, going through Philadelphia throughout the night trying to find who did it and who's got his safe.

Debbi: [00:05:47] There was a part there where you said one of them gets killed, when the safe does something and it cut out.

Tony: [00:05:55] I'm sorry. One of them gets killed and the safe is gone.

Debbi: [00:05:59] Okay. Aha. Now I've got it. Yeah. Boy, the sound is being funny today. Well, you chose a good excerpt from that book, because I really enjoyed it. Are you writing a sequel?

Tony: [00:06:16] Well, that excerpt actually is from the sequel.

Debbi: [00:06:19] Woo! OK.

Tony: [00:06:24] It's a couple of weeks later and he's something else to do. In the excerpt, he's traveling to central Pennsylvania and Norristown's on the way. So he stops off at the guy's house that he knows there. And so on.

Debbi: [00:06:45] Aha! Well, that's very interesting. It's a nice teaser for the first book, too. So I admire your ability to combine details about Philadelphia with a fast-moving storyline. How do you work in the details without bogging the story down?

Tony: [00:07:07] That's a really good question. I think ... I don't dwell on details that much. I don't go in for big, lengthy descriptions. I usually will ... I'll write about the first thing that struck me about a location. Or what I think is significant about that location. I kind of leave it up to the reader to fill in the gaps. If that makes sense.

On writing about location: "I don't dwell on details that much. I don't go in for big, lengthy descriptions.  ... I'll write about the first thing that struck me about a location. Or what I think is significant about that location. I kind of leave it up to the reader to fill in the gaps."

Debbi: [00:07:47] That makes total sense to me.

Tony: [00:07:50] Readers who come from the city and readers who have never been to the city get a different take on things. And while I was writing it, I was afraid that maybe if you're not from Philadelphia, this won't be that much fun. But I think again, without being detail heavy, readers follow along whether they know the city or not.

Debbi: [00:08:31] I know what you're saying. It's kind of like you want to give the flavor of that city without ....

Tony: [00:08:36] Yeah. Yeah.

Debbi: [00:08:38] Bogging everything down and making everything grind to a halt. I assume you've gotten to know a lot about Philadelphia through your work with the fire department.

Tony: [00:08:50] Oh, yeah.

Debbi: [00:08:51] Do your experiences as a firefighter influence your writing and how, if they do?

Tony: [00:08:58] They have to and, I mean, I've done this for over half of my life now. So we're the sum of all of our experiences. Being a fireman, I've worked all over the city. I'd get rotated every three years. So I know the city pretty well. Except maybe one section in the far northeast. Everywhere else. And I like the town. You know? I mean, there's a lot of craziness and there's a lot of nuttiness, but it's home and familiar. And you know it's a [illegible] city.

"So we're the sum of all of our experiences. Being a fireman, I've worked all over the city. I'd get rotated every three years. So I know the city pretty well."

Debbi: [00:09:47] Are you originally from that area?

Tony: [00:09:50] Actually, no. I came here when I was in third grade. Which means I'm still the new kid. But, yeah, I've been here most of my life.

Debbi: [00:10:05] Where were you from originally?

Tony: [00:10:07] We bopped all over. I was born in Pittsburgh. We lived in Bordentown, New Jersey, and we were in Shreveport, Louisiana, for a while. After being here for a couple years, I was in Toronto for a year and then in between all those moves, I lived in Conshohocken, Pennsylvania.

Debbi: [00:10:37] All right. Well, so you've lived all over, I know what that's like. So let's see. Have you ever considered writing a crime story with a firefighter protagonist?

Tony: [00:10:51] It's interesting that you say that or asked that because I did, and when I was finished with it, I didn't like it. It basically followed an arson investigator who's having some trouble. And I didn't like it, and I just recently looked at it again, and I think I fixed it up. So I'm working [illegible] on my sequel to Three Hours, and I'm cleaning up this thing that I wrote a while ago. And it does involve the fire department and the firemen and there's fires.

Debbi: [00:11:39] And this is going to be a novel? The thing you're working on now?

Tony: [00:11:46] Maybe. I cut a lot out. That's what I had to do to fix it, so it might be a novella. It might be a novel. Might be in between.

Debbi: [00:11:55] I was going to say, do you have a preference for writing short? Because I noticed you started with short stories and the novella before you came out with your novel.

Tony: [00:12:05] Yeah, Well, I mean, truth be told, I wrote three novels that never saw the light of day before Happy Hour got published. My writing is very spare. I can sit down at something that I've been working on and, on a productive day, my word count will have diminished. I appreciate that kind of writing. I mean, I do like ... there's a lot of people who write very lush sorts of stuff and I enjoy their writing, too. But I sort of figured out early in the game that if I write very simply and very spare, I can turn out professional-sounding prose. So that's kind of what I go with.

"[T]here's a lot of people who write very lush sorts of stuff and I enjoy their writing, too. But I sort of figured out early in the game that if I write very simply and very spare, I can turn out professional-sounding prose."

Debbi: [00:13:11] That's interesting because you'd be perfect as a screenwriter. Have you ever considered that?

Tony: [00:13:17] I did with my brother and we got into a fight on the first page. So that was sort of the end of that.

Debbi: [00:13:28] Well, it's something to keep in the back of your mind if you ever want to write

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Bill Brier on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Check out the show notes below, or if you’re in a rush, download a copy!

Debbi [00:00:13]: Hi, everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host, Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two e-books for sale; the nine-book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website, www.debbimack.com under the “Crime Cafe” link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Debbi [00:01:02]: Hi, everyone. Today, we have a crime fiction author who has a most interesting background. Before he began writing books, he worked in the film industry in different capacities. He also drives race cars. Now, he writes mysteries and thrillers. I'm pleased to have with me today, the award-winning author, Bill Brier. Hi, Bill, how you doing today?

Bill Brier [00:01:28]: Hi, fine. How are you doing, Debbi?

Debbi [00:01:30]: Okay. Um, where are you coming from today?

Bill [00:01:38]: Thousand Oaks, California. I live in California.

Debbi [00:01:41]: Ah, very nice. So, let's talk about your books. I'm in the midst of reading The Devil Orders Take-out, a standalone thriller. Was that your first novel?

Bill [00:01:55]: Yes, uh-huh, it was.

Debbi [00:01:57]: Okay. And what prompted you to write that particular story?

Bill [00:02:02]: Well, that story started with—I was actually going to do a story about a talking dog, and I wrote maybe 50 pages of a young teenaged golfer who had this dog that would retrieve golf balls. And after about 50 pages, I realized this was working very well, so I scrapped it and started all over again. And I kept the character, the young boy, he was actually a teenager and eliminated the dog and the story went from there.

Debbi [00:02:44]: Hmm, interesting. And can you tell us a little bit about the story?

Bill [00:02:49]: Sure. It has to do with a mob boss and a first-rate tax lawyer who get into battles; life-and-death battles. The lawyer had a son murdered and, in trying to seek revenge, he sought out this crime boss. Now, prior to this, the crime boss had come up and approached the attorney asking him to settle an IRS case because he was being audited and he knew that this lawyer was the best there is. The lawyer refused to take the case and the crime boss was very upset with him. Later, the lawyer’s son and wife get killed through circumstances and there was a person who was responsible for this death, and the lawyer wanted retribution. Well, he bought a gun but he lost his nerve, so he remembered the crime boss. He approached the crime boss and said, ”Okay, I will do your taxes, you take care of rubbing out this person.” And what happens is that the crime boss does do that, but now the man is indebted to the crime boss and a lot of mystery and other things happen. And the son of the lawyer turns out to be a gifted golfer and the crime boss threatens to kill the kid—he was only maybe eight years old at this time—because he was mad at the lawyer. So, they are in the office, the crime boss’ office, and he says, “You're gonna get it hard, Bolt. You're not gonna like it, but I'm going to kill your son.” And the lawyer looks on the wall behind the crime boss and sees a picture of him playing golf with Lee Trevino, a professional golfer at the time, so he catches on that he likes golf. So, he says, “If you kill me, you'll miss out on making millions of dollars.” “Oh yeah, you tell me how that's gonna happen”, the crime boss says. Well, thinking quickly, he says “my son is a gifted golfer” and he's gonna win what would be the Masters.

Debbi [00:05:58]: By the way, you don't have to give away all the spoilers here [laughs].

Bill [00:06:01]: Right. Well, the story goes on. So, anyhow, the story goes on with that [laughs].

Debbi [00:06:15]: Well, I mean actually, it's a very suspenseful book. But you also have a series called “The Killer Who” series.

Bill [00:06:23]: Right.

Debbi [00:06:24]: Now, I know it involves a buried car but can you give me a bit more? Who is the protagonist and how do you see this person developing over the series?

Bill [00:06:33]: Okay. Well, let me just start this way. In 2007, Tulsa, OK, they dug up a car that had been buried for 50 years and it was buried because Tulsa was celebrating their 50th year of statehood and the car was to be dug up in 50 years. 50 years came in 2007 and no one knew whether it would be a rust bucket or whether it would be a pristine car. They dug it up, they lifted off the top and sure enough there was a rust bucket. And I looked at that because it was on a news clip in 2007, when they unearthed the car, and I looked and I said, you know, there's a story in that trunk. So, that prompted me to write this book. And it starts out in the prologue with one of our main characters, Mary Beth, who's a teenage mother, unmarried running through the brush with her father chasing her and she's carrying a baby, and she jumps inside a hollow oak tree with the baby. And he wants to take the baby, she says, “No, you'll take my baby”, and the prologue ends with him reaching in to grab the baby. So, what happens now is where’d the baby go because the reader doesn't know what happened with the baby and the story goes from there.

"In 2007, Tulsa, OK, they dug up a car that had been buried for 50 years and it was buried because Tulsa was celebrating their 50th year of statehood and the car was to be dug up in 50 years. ... And I looked at that because it was on a news clip in 2007, when they unearthed the car, and I looked and I said, you know, there's a story in that trunk."

Debbi [00:08:21]: Mm-hmm. And who is the protagonist? Who is the sleuth?

Bill [00:08:25]: Well, Bucky. He's a 20-year-old who came to Oklahoma, the town is called Defiance, OK. And he came because he wanted to be a businessman, so he ends up selling cars and he has a girlfriend and they get involved in looking for the baby. And the whole story is them looking for the baby with lots of subplots.

Debbi [00:08:58]: Hmm, I see. Very interesting. How would you describe your writing style to a reader who has never read your work before?

Bill [00:09:11]: Well, one of the things that I like in stories—and I write my stories with this in mind—is happy endings. I want to finish a book and feel good about it. So, my endings turn out to be happy endings, and I think that's a significant characteristic of my writing. I write in first person and I've also written in omniscient person but in third person. So, it depends on the story on how I write it, the style.

" I want to finish a book and feel good about it. So, my endings turn out to be happy endings, and I think that's a significant characteristic of my writing."

Debbi [00:09:55]: Does it tend to be more amateur sleuth, cozy type? Humorous?

Bill [00:10:01]: It's more cozy than hard, but I wouldn't say it's cozy; it's leaning that way.

Debbi [00:10:09]: Mm-hmm, yeah, kind of that in between.

Bill [00:10:13]: This isn't sweet enough to be to be cozy. And the crime boss in the other movie is a pretty vicious person and there's some vicious scenes in it.

Debbi [00:10:25]: Gotcha. Okay. On the subject of your previous career, I was very intrigued to see that you worked as a cameraman and editor in the film industry, the business as they say. I guess they call it that. Do your experiences in film ever inform your writing?

Bill [00:10:53]: Probably, but in ways that are more unconscious. I would say the highlight of my motion picture career was when I started out in the Air Force when I was 18 years old. And I photographed President Kennedy the day before he was assassinated. And I was a combat cameraman. I flew in fighter jets and during the Cuban Missile Crisis. And so, I had a very interesting and exciting start as an 18-year-old going to the Air Force motion picture camera school and going from there. And then when I got out of the Air Force, I went to Hollywood, where I grew up and got into the motion picture business there, worked on a lot of movies; The Exorcist and Titanic, a lot of movies with special effects.

"I would say the highlight of my motion picture career was when I started out in the Air Force when I was 18 years old. And I photographed President Kennedy the day before he was assassinated. And I was a combat cameraman."

Debbi [00:11:44]: Yeah. I was impressed with the movies that you've worked on. I was also impressed with the fact that you were on The Dating Game and you got to go on a date with Fannie Flagg?

Bill [00:11:56]: Yes, that's right. I was Bachelor Number One and she picked me. The show is on my website, by the way.

Debbi [00:12:05]: That's how I found out. That must have been fun.

Bill [00:12:11]: That was fun. Yeah, a lot of fun.

Debbi [00:12:14]: I can just imagine. Do you have a favorite movie that you worked on?

Bill [00:12:21]: No, because I worked on so many. And doing the visual effects, you don't work on the whole movie, you just get certain shots to work on. So, it's a very isolated kind of work. Like for instance with Titanic they had a big tank and we had miniatures in the tank, so we would shoot those scenes, set them up and shoot them. But we don't really do the whole broad scope of the movie, we don't see the whole thing until everybody else does.

Debbi [00:12:56]: Yes, yes, yeah, I can see what you're talking about. With all of your cinema experience, did you ever consider becoming a producer?

Bill [00:13:09]: No, a director perhaps, but a producer is a little different job description. I'm more a hands-on like, for instance,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Robert Crais on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Check out the show notes below, or if you’re in a rush, download a copy!

Debbi [00:00:13]: Hi, everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I'm your host, Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I'll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two e-books for sale; the nine-book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website, www.debbimack.com under the “Crime Cafe” link. You can also get a free copy of either book if you become a Patreon supporter. You'll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Debbi [00:01:02]: Hi everyone, I'm pleased to have with me today an author whose books I'm quite familiar with and whose writing inspires me. His latest novel is ‘A Dangerous Man’, the 18th book in the Elvis Cole/Joe Pike series. He's also written other series and non-series books. Our guest today is bestselling author, Robert Crais. Hi, Robert, thanks for being with us today.

Robert [00:01:28]: Debbi, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Debbi [00:01:31]: That's awesome. Well, I am thrilled to have you on. Before I get to your latest book, tell us about Elvis and Joe. Who are these guys and what brought them together as a team?

Robert [00:01:42]: Well, Elvis Cole, my core character, the guy I'm known for most I guess, is a private investigator in Los Angeles. You know, when I created—I go back with crime fiction for a long time. I mean, I discovered Raymond Chandler when I was a kid and he was my gateway drug and I fell in love with this world. And I knew and always wanted to create a private investigator of my own and that was in the cards for me from early on.

And when I created him, I guess you could say I took little bits and pieces—you remember Calvin and Hobbes, and Calvin had this cardboard box and he called it his transmogrifier. And he would get into the box and it would change; it would become a fighter plane or a speed boat or a motorcycle, whatever it was because it was his transmogrifier, this magical device. All writers have a transmogrifier, and I took little bits and pieces of myself and my sensibility and my worldview and I transmogrified myself very loosely into Elvis Cole. You know, he likes to talk, he's verbal, he's funny but he's so much better than me. And he’s one of these people I think I aspire to be, I wish I were more like Elvis Cole. Believe me, he lives a much more adventurous life than I do; I sit in a room and type.

"All writers have a transmogrifier, and I took little bits and pieces of myself and my sensibility and my worldview and I transmogrified myself very loosely into Elvis Cole. You know, he likes to talk, he's verbal, he's funny but he's so much better than me."

But I have also always been a fan of buddy pictures, going back to buddy comic books, you know, and buddy stories of all kinds. I think partnership is a natural order of things. And I wanted Elvis to have a partner and I thought, well, you know, what would be the most interesting partner is a partner who was completely different from Elvis. If Elvis is verbal, then Joe Pike is going to say very little; and if Elvis is funny and wears his heart on his sleeve, Joe Pike is going to show more emotion. And I began the creation that way. But what became apparent to me after a while is that there were reasons that Joe was so silent and Joe held his emotions in check and was such an internal character. And I began to sense that there was a well of great sadness in Joe and maybe even pain, and that made him enormously fascinating and interesting to me. Because what I've done over the course of all these books, 18 books now, is explore these two characters, to try to reveal little bits and pieces of why they are the men that they are; why is Joe that way; why is Elvis so verbal and funny. And in A Dangerous Man, the newest book, Joe takes center stage and it's a story that allows me to get a little bit deeper into Joe Pike and show his true nature a bit more than in the previous books.

"[W]hat I've done over the course of all these books, 18 books now, is explore these two characters, to try to reveal little bits and pieces of why they are the men that they are; why is Joe that way; why is Elvis so verbal and funny. And in A Dangerous Man, the newest book, Joe takes center stage and it's a story that allows me to get a little bit deeper into Joe Pike and show his true nature a bit more than in the previous books."

Debbi [00:05:13]: Yeah, I've always found Joe fascinating for that reason, that there's so much pain behind his stoicism. How do you handle having two protagonists like that? Generally, it seems like one gets kind of more of the lead than the other in most of your books. Is that about right?

Robert [00:05:31]: Yeah, that's true. You know, in most of the books, Elvis Cole is the primary character and the books are told from his point of view. But every once in a while, it's fun for me to have them swap roles and Joe will become the primary character and Elvis then becomes his assistant, and that's what happens in A Dangerous Man. And that's really a product of the stories.

All of my novels, each and every one of them and frankly, most everything else I've ever written, they begin as a disassociated image of some kind and I don't really know anything about the image. In this case, I had this image of a young woman, very young and very innocent, and I only knew that by her facial expression, I guess. But I had this image of this young woman in a very dark room. I didn't know what kind of room. Whether it was an apartment house, a factory, all I knew is there were a lot of shadows, she was there, she was backing away, looking terrified, and there were ominous figures around. I couldn't see any of them. I didn't know who they were. I knew nothing about them. I just knew they were ominous and threatening. And she was saying, “I don't know, I don't know, I don't know anything about it. I don't know what you're talking about”, and that's all she was—that's it, that's it, I didn’t know anything else.

But there's something about her innocence and her truth—I knew she was telling the truth—there was something so intriguing about that that it got its hooks into me and I kept thinking about it and working it. And as ideas began to come to me about her situation and who she was, I knew then that Joe had to be the main character. It was almost like Isabel demanded it. And I knew that if Joe was the main character in this novel, I could show, I could delve into his depths more than I ordinarily could in an Elvis Cole novel. So, in a way, Isabel gave me Joe as the main character in this book, and I think it's perfect for him to show aspects of him that we don't normally see. And I find that endlessly fascinating and interesting and hopefully, readers will too.

Debbi [00:08:33]: I was going to say that A Dangerous Man definitely shows a side of Joe we haven't really seen before in a sense.

Robert [00:08:42]: Well, that's the goal. I mean, you know, Joe is—

Debbi [00:08:46]: But kind of a personal side.

Robert [00:08:49]: Yeah, on a very personal level, and who he is and what his life is actually like. You know, Joe is a very—I think Joe is a lonely person. I mean, he's made choices in his life. Some were forced on him, others were just the product of decisions that he made, that have led to a lonely and sometimes sad existence.

I mean, I think, listen, in many ways, Joe would like what any other guy would like. I mean, you know, he would like a special person in his life. He would like a family. He made choices along the way when he became a private military contractor and started traveling the world at a moment's notice and having to keep secrets that he could never share, that would be wrong to ask a woman to share in that, in that unpredictable, potentially dangerous lifestyle. So, he made the conscious decision to not impose that on anyone and not ask anyone to share that. And I think he sometimes regrets that. And in fact, I know he sometimes regrets that.

But Joe being Joe, he's always moving forward and he's always trying to just move ahead and keep going. And by his nature, he's hardwired to save and defend and to protect weak against strong, and that makes him the perfect hero to find out what's going on with Isabel Roland and find out who the bad guys are who are trying to harm her, and to totally commit himself to saving her, no matter what he has to do. And that's really what happens in the book, I mean that's Joe's essence in this novel, is that … listen, if you and I were somewhere and a bunch of bad guys jumped us and were mugging us or doing harm to us, we would hope that Joe Pike would be nearby because he's the guy you want there.

Debbi [00:11:07]: Mm-hmm, exactly. I've always loved the red arrows. Where did that idea come from? On his shoulders?

Robert [00:11:17]: Yeah. Joe has a red arrow tattooed on the outside of each deltoid and they point forward. And at some point, along the way, he might have said, well, they keep him moving in the right direction, you know, they remind him which way is to the front. That's Joe's philosophy. You know, Joe comes from a childhood that was not pleasant. His father was a violent alcoholic. His father abused Joe and Joe's mother, and there was great violence and anger throughout Joe's childhood. And eventually, he was able to move beyond that. He in a way created himself. You know, he admired the Marines because the Marines were tough and ready to fight, so he became a Marine and he trained himself in the martial arts and physical fitness. And all of these things, which was in a way Joe Pike's way of making sure no one would ever be able to abuse him again as his f