The Crime Cafe

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Richard Armstrong on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

Unfortunately, I can no longer provide transcription show notes, but will resume doing so when finances allow. I've included a few excerpts from the interview.

Here are a few excerpts from the interview:

On copywriting and con men:

"I have a free giveaway, if you visit my website. The book, as you know, deals with con men and confidence games, that sort of thing. And there's a book on there ... there's a booklet called "How to Talk Anybody Into Anything: Secrets of the World's Greatest Con Men." It's about a hundred pages long. It's a PDF. You can download it instantly for free. There's no catch or obligation or anything."

"While I don't believe that copywriters are con men, we do have a tendency to use a lot of the same techniques. The key difference between a copywriter and a con man is that copywriters are not criminals. We don't have what's known in the law as criminal intent. We're just trying to sell you a product. And, hopefully, that product will be worth more than what you paid for it, and we'll both go away happy. A win-win situation. Whereas the con man is simply trying to essentially steal money from you without you knowing it. ... I think [the free booklet] is a very interesting book and even a useful book if you're in any business in which persuasion is part of your job, and that includes many, many different types of jobs."

On copywriting and fiction writing:

"There's a lot of connections between copywriting and fiction. This is my second novel, but in copywriting, we've long recognized the importance of telling stories, the importance of being mysterious, of invoking curiosity in the reader---a number of things we have to do in advertising that are skills that are very, very useful to the novelist. And vice versa."

About his novel, The Don Con:

"I was an actor years ago, when I was younger, and way back in 1972, I was in a play, and ... I did make a very good friend in that cast by the name of Jonathan Frakes. And Jonathan went on to be pretty well-known, famous as the second-in-command of Star Trek: The Next Generation ... Patrick Stewart was the commander of the ship, and my friend Jonathan was the second-in-command. And one night, not that long ago---four or five years ago---I was having dinner with him and my wife. And I hadn't seen him in a while and I was kind of curious about what he was up to, because I knew he wasn't acting much, because I wasn't seeing him on television anymore. So we were asking what he was doing, and he said he does a lot of directing in television these days, because he's also a director.

"But he said, 'You know, one of the ways that I make income is that I go to fan conventions, particularly Star Trek conventions, and I sign autographs for money.' And, silly me, I had never heard of this before. I didn't know such things existed. But he told me that he didn't know they existed, either, until a couple of years into the show, and his agent said, 'I think you should go to this Star Trek convention.' And he said to his agent, 'Why would I want to do that?" And the agent said, 'Well ... do you like money?' So, he agreed to do it, and he was absolutely gobsmacked by how much money he made."

"Not only was it kind of an amusing story, but I was thinking about it a couple of weeks later. I guess I was walking the dog ... and it occurred to me, wouldn't it be interesting if somebody tried to steal that money. All that cash at a fan convention. That was the basic germ of the book. And what the story of the book is ... it's about an actor who never really had a lot of success. I mean, he kind of hit the high water mark of his career when he had little part on The Sopranos, as a gangster. And nowadays, he goes around to these fan conventions around the country and he makes kind of meager living, because he was never a big star, but he's able to make a living signing autographs at these conventions. And one day, there's a real gangster in his autograph line. And the real gangster makes him an offer he can't refuse, which is namely, 'You are going to help me rob all the celebrities at the next convention.' So, that's the basic plotline of the story, and madness ensues from there, as they say."

*****

And if you'd like to hear a great story from Richard Armstrong about meeting Jonathan Frakes for dinner with just a few Star Trek actors and other television icons, you can hear it exclusively as a podcast supporter on Patreon! :)

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Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Bob Hartley on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

Unfortunately, I can no longer provide transcription show notes, but will resume doing so when finances allow. I have tried to note at what time various discussion topics come up in include a few teaser quotes from the interview.

"I grew up on the far West Side of Chicago, and that was the world that I grew up within. ... During that time, there was a lot of economic turmoil going on in the Seventies, and I witnessed it. A lot of racial turmoil, as well, and I witnessed all of that, and that has put a mark on me. I have difficulty writing about anything else."

"Although I'm certainly glad that [North and Central is] looked upon as a noir novel---it captures that time and so forth---I think of it as a metaphor for the system itself. A lot of what we're experiencing right now. A lot of low-paying jobs, a lot of people without any real ... well, without a lot of hope."

"Human beings like to think they're in control, but in reality, as we found out recently, you're not in control. And so we scramble to find some kind of control when we really don't have it. ... So, we're constantly trying to do that, but in reality, sometimes the situation ... you have no control."

About the influence of Chicago writer, Nelson Algren: "When I read his books, I saw somebody who was looking at a neighborhood and actually writing about people who aren't represented in fiction very often and captured it very well. ... Even the minor character, if you were to follow that character, if you were to follow that character out the door, you would be experiencing a story that might just be as compelling as the one you're reading. That's tough to do, and Algren did it very well. If you're saying I've come close to it, that's great."

There's more where that came from! :) Check out the podcast! And please support the podcaster! :) I have a special offer running until midnight April 7, 2020! Check it out!

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer June Trop on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I also recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

Unfortunately, I can no longer provide transcription show notes, but will resume doing so when finances allow. I have tried to note at what time various discussion topics come up in the recording.

[02:40] June talks about how she discovered Maria Hebrea, the woman who inspired her protagonist, Miriam bat Isaac, while researching a paper for a class on the history of chemistry.

[04:43] June describes the nature of her protagonist, Miriam bat Isaac, a female alchemist, along with the illegal nature of her work.

[06:10] June explains how she found information on a topic with few records to verify its accuracy, except for references to Hebrea's work made by her successors.

[07:15] Much of what June learned through research revealed surprises about Hebrea. Along with alchemy, she was an inventor. Her inventions are well-known, even if she isn't.

[08:30] June explains why alchemy developed and why it was outlawed. Alchemy is still alive, but "barely breathing." Alchemy is the forerunner of modern chemistry. And alchemy is still pursued, as a "fringe" pursuit.

[12:09] June talks about her books and the series. How Miriam bat Isaac uses alchemy, and the role it plays in the stories.

[13:40] June describes the research she did for her novels and the kinds of details she familiarized herself with, as well as how long it took. She shares a bit about her research process.

[17:15] June says she writes stories that depict her protagonist in extreme peril, involving a battle between Good and Evil, but one the protagonist may not always win.

[18:42] June discusses her plans for the series.

[20:25] June's working on a set of Miriam bat Isaac short stories.

[22:05] June discusses women's education (and its availability) during the First Century CE and how it would affect her protagonist's ability to work.

[24:36] Tacos versus pizza? June picks her favorite!

[25:36] June's concluding remarks. She tries to write her books for a person "sitting in a hospital room," because she wants to transport people to fascinating worlds with her stories. She also shares her website, so check that out!

*****

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Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Judith Yates on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I would also like to recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

Unfortunately, I can no longer provide transcription show notes, but will resume doing so when finances allow. I have tried to note at what time various discussion topics come up in the recording.

[02:35] Judith discusses her decision to study criminology.

[03:40] Judith mentions her family's roots in law enforcement, including her grandfather's work for Pinkerton.

[05:35] Discussion of Judith's book Bullied to Death.

[08:57] The importance of good storytelling in true crime.

[09:31] The use of technology and social media in bullying teens and children.

[12:20] The emotional impact of the story in Bullied to Death.

[12:50] The authors Judith find most inspiring.

[14:25] Judith's opinion of the role of the true crime writer.

[15:20] A few cautionary words about self-publishing other people's true stories.

[18:40] Judith talks about her true crime book, She is Evil.

[20:30] The focus in She is Evil on the misrepresentation of those of the Islamic faith.

[24:00] Discussion of the post-9/11 backlash against Islamic people.

[25:36] Judith's current work-in-progress, a true crime book about female bank robbers.

[28:06] Bonnie Parker never robbed a bank! (Who knew? I didn't.)

[29:10] I highly recommend Knives Out! (Review to come on another blog. Eventually.] And a bit of discussion about Bond. James Bond.

[30:15] Judith mentions the list of resources available on online bullying. Her goal is to tell stories that readers can learn from, so as to avoid the mistakes of the past.

*****

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Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Michael Streed on the Crime Cafe podcast.

For your podcasting needs, I use and recommend Blubrry Podcasting.

I would also like to recommend Stitcher Premium, if you’re a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts.

I’ve subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it’s nice to have the ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

Unfortunately, I can no longer provide transcription show notes, but will resume doing so when finances allow. I have tried to note at what time various discussion topics come up in the recording.

[02:27] Michael talks about how he became a sketch artist for the police force.

[02:45] Michael talks about his interest in drawing, starting with his childhood cartoons.

[04:20] How Michael prepared to write his first book.

[05:44] How writing police reports helped Michael write his first book, as well as the ways his law enforcement experience has helped him write true crime stories.

[07:07] Michael talks about how police sketch artists work.

[09:30] Michael explains what it means to be a certified forensic artist and why he chose to be certified.

[09:40] Michael on the importance of having a good editor.

[11:00] Our discussion the "modern age" of forensic artistry.

[11:35] Why Michael created his own forensic software.

[12:02] Michael talks about the true crime book he's working on.

[15:05] Why Michael wrote his first book, SketchCop.

[17:00] Michael discusses the process of creating forensic art through listening to stories.

[17:40] One case Michael worked on involving the use of an unusual type of sketch.

[18:45] Michael talks more about the process of police sketching.

[20:00] Michael talks more about his love for cartooning.

[21:00] The role of virtual technology in forensic art.

[22:40] My off-the-wall question: Which do you prefer: autumn or spring?

[24:10] Interview wrap-up.

*****

Help bring back the show transcriptions! Please support the Crime Cafe on Patreon.

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Bill Duncan on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Read along with the podcast or, if you’re in a rush, download a copy of the show notes here. This post contains affiliate links.

Debbi:   Hi everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two ebooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website, debbimack.com, under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book, if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

I would also like to recommend Stitcher Premium, if you're a fan of podcasts. If you like true crime or crime fiction, there are loads of podcasts out there for you. And with Stitcher Premium you can listen to the exclusive archives from Criminology or bonus episodes from True Crime Garage. You can also listen ad-free to episodes of your favorite podcasts. I've subscribed, and for only $4.99 a month, it's nice to have the ad-free entertainment. Just go to www.stitcher.com/premium and use the promo code, CRIMECAFE, to try it out absolutely free for a month.

Debbi [00:01:44]: Hi, everyone. I'm pleased to have with me today an author who writes private eye novels—my favorite sub-genre. Today's guest is the author of the Rafferty Private Eye series, and his name is Bill Duncan. Hi, Bill. It's good to have you on today. Thanks for being here.

Bill [00:02:06]: Hey, Debbi. It's great to be here.

Debbi [00:02:07]: Awesome. It's great to have you. And first, I just think it's wonderful that you've brought your father's books back onto the market through self-publishing. He must have been very proud of you.

Bill [00:02:20]: He was. It was a fantastic exercise to do and it was the sort of thing that finally gave him the ability to hear from the fans that he didn't get to hear from back during his trade pub days. So, as I think I alluded to a little bit in the guest blog post, back when he was publishing, the publishers asked for more books, sent royalty checks, that was about it. That was the sort of level of—and edits obviously, but that was the level of interaction that dad had with the funnel, I guess, where his books were going. So, he never really knew. And then to be able to hear, you know, 30 years later from people who had loved his books originally and then were loving them again now, was pretty special for him, yeah. And then for me too to be able to give that to him, yeah.

Debbi [00:03:24]: That's just so fantastic. So, your father's fan base was out there waiting for these books to be re-released pretty much. That must have provided a lot of help with the sales.

Bill [00:03:37]: Look, it did but there were some very influential people who had been fans of dad’s and they were great in sort of getting the word out. The funny thing that I found, though, is that the original books were only released in the US and Canada. And so, while there were a lot of fans that came back and said “it's great to see Rafferty back”, there were equally as many fans who never got a chance to meet the characters the first time around. So, they were reading Rafferty for the first time, and I had a number of emails from people saying, “I just wish I'd been able to get it the first time around”. So, people living in Europe and Canada and so on, who'd never met the character before. So, there was a fan base but then there was a new fan base that also picked up, which was great.

Debbi [00:04:36]: That's fantastic. These books, what year were they first written?

Bill [00:04:43]: Rafferty’s Rules, the first in the series, was written in ’85, I think from memory. I didn't study up on that question, Debbi. (chuckles)

Debbi [00:04:59]: (chuckles) No problem. But it was back in the 80’s.

Bill [00:05:03]: It was. It was in the mid to late 80’s. So, the first one came out in ’86, then the second two, Last Seen Alive and Poor Dead Cricket, came out in, I believe it was ’88. And then the last three came out in ‘89 and ’90. So, it was within a period of about four years that they all hit the market but they were definitely written in the mid to late 80’s.

Debbi [00:05:27]: So, I don't suppose you had to do a lot of updating in terms of making them more relatable or something for today's readers?

"So, when I spoke to dad about carrying on the series, he said, “look, do whatever you want with him, you know. Move countries, take him to Australia. Move him into modern times. Do whatever you want”. And that was never going to be a thing for me. I'm an unabashed child of the 80’s, so he was going to stay stuck square in the middle of the 80’s."

Bill [00:05:41]: It was interesting. I guess there's two parts to that question: there's the original books when I was redoing them; and then, there's my books that have come since. So, when I spoke to dad about carrying on the series, he said, “look, do whatever you want with him, you know. Move countries, take him to Australia. Move him into modern times. Do whatever you want”. And that was never going to be a thing for me. I'm an unabashed child of the 80’s, so he was going to stay stuck square in the middle of the 80’s. And the thing that I loved about that is that because the time period is already set, to me the stories don't date as much as something written this year that then gets superseded by technology in two years or three years. The 80’s is already a genre or a subset, if you like. So, to me it's quite freeing to write. In terms of updating, with dad's original six books, there were a couple of things that I did go through and tidy up to do—not politically correctness, but just a couple of things that might be considered a little bit beyond the pale as far as words being used.

Debbi [00:07:15]: A little sensitivity stuff in there, yeah.

Bill [00:07:17]: A little. It was not my intention. I did not whitewash it. I did not intend to and even in my books, I won't. In fact, I had a reasonably good argument with my editor on the latest book about to come out about a particular character, which she wanted to just completely PC right out of the window. And I said that it doesn't work—well, anyway, I won't get into the details, but the character is a caricature and she didn't get that. So, no, I didn't whitewash it, but there was one particular reference that I think was probably very, very common back in Texas in the mid-80’s and I just deleted that one. That was all. (chuckles)

Debbi [00:08:05]: (chuckles) Oh, wow. I was gonna say you live in Australia but you write about Texas, or your dad did. So, how important is Texas to the stories and why Texas?

Bill [00:08:20]: Well, I was actually born in Texas. So, I'm originally from the States. Mom and dad, our whole families, we moved over here when I was seven. Mum and dad decided to pick the family up and change countries. But prior to that, we'd been living in Texas and so I was born about an hour north of Dallas. And prior to mum and dad moving there, they had actually lived in Dallas. Dad was a radio newsman at the time when Kennedy was shot, actually. So, he was right in the thick of it all during the big evil time, I guess, in Dallas. Because of the work he was doing too, he got to know the city incredibly well. He actually uses the phrase, when he first got to the news station, they gave him a car and he could go anywhere he wanted and he said, “I was like a kid with a doughnut. It was just party time. I could do anything I wanted. I could talk to anyone I wanted.” And he had some great stories about those days.

"Dad was a radio newsman at the time when Kennedy was shot, actually. So, he was right in the thick of it all during the big evil time, I guess, in Dallas. Because of the work he was doing too, he got to know the city incredibly well."

Debbi [00:09:38]: I'll bet that was something.

Bill [00:09:43]: So, Dallas was a really big thing for him. It was a formative city, I think, for him. He and mum were just married. They were in their late 20’s, so it was a big time for them to be there as well. So, I think when he turned his hand to writing, although we were already in Australia, I think Dallas just came out. It was the thing he knew so well and it fit the character.

Debbi [00:10:15]: And not only did he know the city well but those incidents that he covered while he was in the news, that had to have an impact.

Bill [00:10:25]: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Debbi [00:10:27]: Wow, that's something. Does Rafferty change at all from book to book? Does he have kind of a story arc over the course of the series?

Bill [00:10:37]: He does and one of the things that I've been interested to find out while I've been writing him is that he's much more nuanced then I gave him credit for when I was reading dad’s stories, you know, as a teenager. He does have a story arc and I now know more of where that arc is bending towards. How long it takes him to get there, I don't know; that would be an interesting one to see. But look, it's a really interesting question. Dad aged him in accordance with the books. I have slowed that right down to give me some opportunities to continue the series on before it gets too—

Debbi [00:11:24]: To keep it in the 80’s. (chuckles)

Bill [00:11:26]: Absolutely, absolutely, to keep it in the 80’s. But also, you know, no one wants to read about a private eye chasing people in a Zimmer frame or an electric scooter. Someone was talking about that the other day—

Debbi [00:11:40]: It would make a good comedy. (chuckles)

Bill [00:11:42]: Oh, actually, it was your podcast. It was Robert Crais talking about it.

Debbi [00:11:46]: That’s correct, yes....

Debbi Mack interviews true crime writer Blaine Pardoe on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Sponsored by: Blubrry Podcasting – Launch your Podcast the Blubrry Way

Read along with the podcast or, if you’re in a rush, download a copy of the show notes here. This post contains affiliate links.

Debbi:   Hi everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two ebooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website, debbimack.com, under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book, if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

[00:01:02] I’m happy to say that the podcast is sponsored this month by Blubrry Podcasting. If you either have a podcast or want to start one, I use them and I highly recommend them. Blubrry Podcasting makes my job much easier. For one thing, I have a WordPress website, and Blubrry only requires you use their PowerPress plugin to work. But you don’t have to be a WordPress user to launch a podcast with Blubrry Podcasting. So, there is flexibility. The best part is you don’t have to be a technical genius to use Blubrry Podcasting. But, if you run into trouble, Blubrry Podcasting has 5-day phone support and 7-day email support. I love that. So, get 30 days of Blubrry Podcasting Free. This includes hosting and stats and a WordPress site if you need one. Publishing is as simple as Create – Upload – Publish. Just use the Promo Code BLU011 to get started today.

Debbi [00:02:13]: Hi everyone. Today's guest is an award-winning New York Times bestselling author of numerous books in a wide variety of genres, including true crime. He is also a historian, which I think is way cool. It's my great pleasure to introduce Blaine Pardoe. Hi, Blaine.

Blaine [00:02:33]: Thanks for having me on.

Debbi [00:02:35]: Sure thing. I'm glad you could be here. And let's see, you've had a really interesting career. I don’t get to talk to many crime authors who are also nonfiction historian writers. So, how did you get into that?

Blaine [00:02:51]: Actually, you know, I tend to write the things I like to read. So, from my youth, I've been reading true crime and I've been reading military history, and when I became a writer, I was writing primarily science fiction and told my agent I wanted to get into writing some military history and he was like “that's crazy, you don't go that direction” and I said “well, I do”. And so, I started going into that and I wrote a number of military history books, really enjoyed doing that. And you know, then I decided, well, you know what, I always like true crime, I'll go branch into that. I found that, really, the amount of research—there’s a difference as to where you go to get the information, but the actual research methodologies are pretty similar between writing a historical nonfiction and writing true crime.

"I wrote a number of military history books, really enjoyed doing that. And you know, then I decided, well, you know what, I always like true crime, I'll go branch into that. I found that, really, the amount of research—there’s a difference as to where you go to get the information, but the actual research methodologies are pretty similar between writing a historical nonfiction and writing true crime."

Debbi [00:03:49]: Mm-hmm. I was gonna say, you said you have a preference for cold cases and older cases, is it more difficult to write about recent or ongoing cases?

Blaine [00:04:03]: Yeah. You know, the problem is the wounds are all pretty new and you know, I'd love to do some current cases, especially some of them that are out there now are absolutely fascinating. The problem is, you know, it's so new and it's so fresh and it’s still so painful for the victims’ families, etc. to deal with it. It's very hard for people to be objective in what they're saying. It's a lot easier with a cold case that might go back to the 1960s, ‘70s or ‘80s, to go back to an older cold case, you're able to really get some objectivity. Now, people's memories are worse, but they're able to talk about it a lot more because they've talked about it so many times. And I found that's been easier for us to get, you know, in terms of interviewing people, to be able to get them to open up about that.

Debbi [00:05:05]: Mm-hmm. I would think they would have more perspective on it at that point.

Blaine [00:05:09]: Sometimes.

Debbi [00:05:11]: Uh-huh. Sometimes, yeah. Huh. Well, there's also the aspect of police wanting to conduct an investigation without giving out too much information, I would assume.

Blaine [00:05:23]: Well, you know, when you're dealing with cold cases, it always helps to have law enforcement on your side and say, “yes, that'd be a help”. But we've had situations where we've been able to work with law enforcement and open up the case files and go from there. We've also had cases where law enforcement said, “we will not cooperate”, and those are harder to do. That's frustrating and you kind of pound your head a lot on those, but you know, there's ways around that and I find a lot of former investigators and they're more than willing to talk about it. When a case—you know, we just did a book on the Freeway Phantom which was a serial killing spree in Washington DC in the 1970s, and the police are still going, “it's an active investigation, we're following all leads”. Well, look, it's 48 years old. If you haven't solved it, you're not going to at this point, or at best you're going to find that the perpetrator is dead, you know. But they still won't open the case files for us. But we found some former investigators who were able to share. They kept copies of things and that was helpful for us, and they were more than willing to share them.

"Well, you know, when you're dealing with cold cases, it always helps to have law enforcement on your side and say, 'yes, that'd be a help'. But we've had situations where we've been able to work with law enforcement and open up the case files and go from there. We've also had cases where law enforcement said, 'we will not cooperate', and those are harder to do."

Debbi [00:06:56]: That's good. Now, both this book and the one, A Special Kind of Evil, which you are giving away, were collaborations with your daughter, correct?

Blaine [00:07:09]: Yes, yes. I've done a number of books with my daughter.

Debbi [00:07:13]: Ah-ha. So, when did you start collaborating?

Blaine [00:07:16]: It was a few years ago. I got approached by a law enforcement officer about a cold case in my hometown. I had just written a book on a cold case in my hometown in Michigan and it was on the murder of Maggie Hume. And my daughter has always been a true crime fan and she loves to write, and I thought, well, what the heck. You know, I've never written with someone collaboratively, and I knew her writing style was pretty close to mine. So, I called her up and said “are you interested in doing this?” and she was all over it. So, we traveled up to Michigan on many trips, did the research, split the book up, you know, edited each other's work, really kind of dove into it. And it's actually been kind of a fun—I wouldn't say father-daughter experience as much as it's just been fun writing with someone who's so much younger, whose perspective is so much different than an old fart like me, you know. I look at things a certain way and she offers kind of a different perspective, and that's very useful.

On his collaborating with his daughter on books: "[I]t's actually been kind of a fun—I wouldn't say father-daughter experience as much as it's just been fun writing with someone who's so much younger, whose perspective is so much different than an old fart like me, you know. I look at things a certain way and she offers kind of a different perspective, and that's very useful."

Debbi [00:08:32]: That's fantastic actually. It sounds wonderful. So, it sounds like you guys collaborate well together.

Blaine [00:08:39]: We do. You know, it's a little weird. You know, I would tell people I used to work with—you know, I'm taking my daughter out to some murder scenes this weekend, you know, and you always kind of get kind of a weird look from people anyway but yeah.

Debbi [00:08:53]: How touching (chuckles)

Blaine [00:08:56]: (chuckles) yeah, “what kind of a father are you?” We actually had a good time with a lot of it. And it's a time for us to talk, and I think my wife enjoys it from a perspective of she doesn't like hearing about some of these cases and how gruesome they are. My daughter's a nurse, so it's not a big deal if we start talking about, “well, did you see this in the autopsy photo?” and “oh my god, I couldn't believe they put their hands there”, and you know, things along those lines. You look at it now, you know, my wife kind of cringed at it but my daughter gets into it, so it makes it a little bit easier to work.

Debbi [00:09:33]: Mm-hmm. Yes, I can imagine. Your blog post was about the Kevin Bacon murder. Can you tell us a little bit more about that case and how you got involved with writing about it?

Blaine [00:09:46]: Well, it's really interesting. My son lives in Michigan, which is where I was raised—I was born in Virginia but raised there. And he was down for the holidays and started talking about somebody who had gone missing at that point on Christmas.

It's kind of interesting, he said, “this guy was going to come and shadow me at my salon”—my son owns a hair salon, Aesthetic Hair Company. He owns it in Ferndale, Michigan. He said, “this guy was gonna come and shadow us for a day”, you know, kind of sit in our salon and watch us work and he's gone missing....

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Cathi Stoler on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Sponsored by: Blubrry Podcasting – Launch your Podcast the Blubrry Way

Read along with the podcast or, if you’re in a rush, download a copy of the show notes here.

Debbi:   Hi everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two ebooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website, debbimack.com, under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book, if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

[00:01:02] I’m happy to say that the podcast is sponsored this month by Blubrry Podcasting. If you either have a podcast or want to start one, I use them and I highly recommend them. Blubrry Podcasting makes my job much easier. For one thing, I have a Wordpress website, and Blubrry only requires you use their PowerPress plugin to work. But you don’t have to be a Wordpress user to launch a podcast with Blubrry Podcasting. So, there is flexibility. The best part is you don’t have to be a technical genius to use Blubrry Podcasting. But, if you run into trouble, Blubrry Podcasting has 5-day phone support and 7-day email support. I love that. So, get 30 days of Blubrry Podcasting Free. This includes hosting and stats and a Wordpress site if you need one. Publishing is as simple as Create - Upload - Publish. Just use the Promo Code BLU011 to get started today.

Debbi: Hi everyone. Happy new year. It's 2020, or it will be by the time this goes up on the air or in the stream or whatever. My guest today is author of the three-volume Laurel and Helen New York Mystery series and the three-time finalist and winner of the 2015 Derringer Award for Best Short Story. Her latest novel is called Out of Time: A Nick Donahue Adventure. It's not just a mystery, it's an adventure. So it's my pleasure to introduce my guest, Cathi Stoler. Hi Cathi, how are you doing today?

Cathi: Hi Debbi. Thank you for having me.

Debbi: I'm in the midst of reading Out of Time and enjoying the heck out of it. Can you tell us a bit about Nick Donahue, who I understand started as a character in a short story?

Cathi: Yes. He is a professional blackjack player, and he travels all over the world. He lives in London with his partner, Marina DiPietro. And he's just, he's fun and he's sophisticated, and he seems to find himself in a lot of trouble, even though he's pretty smart. When I came up with him, he was gambling in the casino in Venice, and Marina was undercover for MI6, but he didn't know that. He met her and he helped her with something, and then he got in trouble, and she rescued him. And then at the end of that... So this is sort of a three-part story, and at the end of it he wound up rescuing her from the mob who thought he owed them $10 million.

Debbi: Very interesting.

Cathi: He got it back from them. They were doing money laundering. So and then I just thought I would... That was a novella. The short story morphed into a novella. And then I thought I would like to continue writing them, those two characters.

Debbi: What was it exactly that attracted you about those two characters?

Cathi: I just think that they're compatible but kind of opposite, and they're both pretty smart, and they both are good at their professions and their jobs. But there was just a little of this back-and-forth pull, and I thought that they would work well together to continue. Marina is really the detective, and he kind of, the private investigator, and he kind of helps her.

" I just think that they're compatible but kind of opposite, and they're both pretty smart, and they both are good at their professions and their jobs. ... Marina is really the detective, .. the private investigator, and he kind of helps her."

Debbi: Yeah, I was going to say that Marina is such a strong character, and technically she's the professional investigator. So it's kind of interesting to see the story told from the viewpoint of the helper character, kind of like Watson to Holmes sort of. Was there something that drew you toward writing to that point of view in particular?

Cathi: I just, I really was very drawn to the character of Nick Donahue, and I wanted the story to be from his perspective. And even though Marina is the private investigator, it's really him telling the story of how they are interacting. And he's just... I always liked spy stories when I was a kid. Now, he's not a spy, but it's sort of a little bit of a James Bond kind of character, like that.

"I always liked spy stories when I was a kid. Now, he's not a spy, but it's sort of a little bit of a James Bond kind of character, like that."

Debbi: Exactly.

Cathi: [crosstalk 00:04:33], the essence of these difficulties. But he manages in his own fashion to extricate himself.

Debbi: Would you describe your writing as humorous?

Cathi: Not generally, but I think in those two books there's a little bit more of that. My other novels, I would say my characters are a little more snarky. For my first series of the detective was kind of a wise cracker, and then the series I'm writing now, the woman who owns the bar is, sort of in that vein. And I don't write funny things. I don't know that I could do that. If I consciously thought about it it would probably [inaudible 00:05:27].

Debbi: But it comes out.

Cathi: Yeah, it comes out. But there are some people who write very, very, very funny stories of funny characters where you laugh out loud kind of thing. But that's not what it's about.

Debbi: But I think you have a nice balance there. You have a nice balance of the spy stuff with the humorous asides from Nick.

Cathi: Yeah. Good. That's kind of…

Debbi: Yeah, do you plan to write a third book?

Cathi: Well, I have a new series that I'm working on, so if I do it won't be for a while. I might write another story. I was thinking about that, so I have to see how my time progresses. Not give them up entirely. I won't give them up entirely, because I enjoy writing this and writing about them, and we'll have to see how the timelines go.

Debbi: Yeah, will Nick and Marina's relationship be changing over the course of the books?

Cathi: I don't think it's going to be changing too much. I mean, they'll still be together, and they'll still, he'll still want to help her, and the ones who get into the most trouble... I have them sort of rescuing each other in stories. And their base is in London, so they travel. He travels a lot for the blackjack, and she travels a lot for her job as well. So we'll see where they go next.

Debbi: Yeah. How much research do you do to acquaint yourself with things like, say blackjack, or MI6, or the travel aspect of it?

Cathi: Blackjack, I play a little, but I'm certainly no professional. I had to write a scene in the first story where he had to lose, so he could owe the casino money, and he could do this favor for them. And you have to think about how he could really lose and not have him say, "What are you doing? Why are you playing your cards that way." So that was kind of fun to figure that out.

But the travel aspect I love a lot, because I like to travel. I did go to Dubai, and it's quite a different kind of city than New York. Every building is [inaudible 00:08:10] tall, and you go to the top of the Burj Khalifa, and all you see is the big giant city, and then desert and water. And it is huge. I didn't expect it to be that big, but [inaudible 00:08:24].

"But the travel aspect I love a lot, because I like to travel. I did go to Dubai, and it's quite a different kind of city than New York."

Debbi: Wow. So when people ask you what kind of books you write, what do you tell them?

Cathi: Well, I tell them their mystery suspense stories. That's basically what they are. There's a mystery that needs to be solved, or a suspenseful type of mystery. I mean, this was finding this weapon of mass destruction and who was responsible for prompting that to happen, for the terrorists get their hands, try and get their hands on it. So I think that's how I think of them as mystery suspense, and maybe a little---and thrillers a little bit. For me, it's kind of the suspense thriller genre is similar.

On describing her work: " I tell them their mystery suspense stories. That's basically what they are. There's a mystery that needs to be solved, or a suspenseful type of mystery."

Debbi: With a kind of dash of romance in there?

Cathi: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Debbi: Yeah, definitely. There's chemistry there with Nick and Marina, who I just love as a character. Both of them. I understand you're also, you're working on an urban thriller called Bar None? That's the one you just, yeah, talked about?

Cathi: Yeah, that one is the first book in the series. Now I'm working on the second one called Last Call. And the main character in those books is a woman named Jude Dillane, and she owns The Corner Lounge on 10th Street and Avenue B, lower Manhattan. And in the first book they find the body and... No, I'm sorry. I'm getting my second book mixed up with my first book.

In her first book she helps solve a crime at the food bank in the Bronx. I don't know if you've ever heard of the giant market there, the Hunts Point Market. And it's a week... It's a wholesale market for all kinds of vegetables and meats and things. And I placed the food bank, an imaginary food bank, in that area. So her landlord volunteers there and they're very good friends. So someone gets killed, a friend of his, so she helps him solve that case.

In Last Call, the book that should be coming out next year, that is about serial killers....

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer Jeff Lindsay on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Read along with the podcast or, if you’re in a rush, download a copy of the show notes here.

Debbi:   Hi everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I’m your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I’ll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two ebooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website, debbimack.com, under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book, if you become a Patreon supporter. You’ll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Debbi: Hi, everyone. I'm thrilled to have with me today, the creator of my favorite serial killer, or at least one of them, Dexter Morgan, and he now has a new book out called Just Watch Me featuring his new protagonist Riley Wolfe. I just finished it and it's great, and my guest today is New York Times bestselling author, Jeff Lindsay. Jeff, it's wonderful to have you on.

Jeff: Well, it's great to be had. Thank you very much.

Debbi: Thank you very much. Tell us about Riley Wolfe and what prompted you to write this book.

Jeff: Riley Wolfe is a master thief, maybe the best in the world. And the thing about him is for Riley, it's not about the money, it's about the challenge. He had a sort of traumatic childhood that made him grow up with two really overwhelming compulsions. And the first is to steal things that are impossible to steal. It just can't be done. And the second is, if possible, to steal them from the 1%. He has a real deep seated grudge, almost a hatred for the hereditary entitled people who just, in his mind, wallow in the money and sort of walk on everybody else with their ingrained privilege.

So, it came because I wanted to do a new series and quite honestly I sort of needed to. And it was what we like to call a job of work there. I had to go through a lot of different changes, a lot of evolution. And I started with a conman and I realized that it'd be more interesting to make it someone that uses being a conman as a tool rather than an end. And so Riley Wolfe has those skills and he has an incredible skill for disguises and dialects and accents, but he uses those to get inside where you would think no one could go and steal things from the 1% that can't be taken.

"Riley Wolfe is a master thief, maybe the best in the world. And the thing about him is for Riley, it's not about the money, it's about the challenge. "

Debbi: Very interesting. I don't know if you did this consciously or unconsciously or if there's even a relationship, but there was part of what I saw in Riley was the Saint actually.

Jeff: What's the what?

Debbi: The Saint, if you're familiar with the character, the Saint.

Jeff: No, I'm not. I'm sorry.

Debbi: Oh, well that's, you should familiarize yourself with that character.

Jeff: No, then people would say I was stealing.

Debbi: Well, we don't want that. But it just reminds me of that, that mentality, that whole ability to transform themselves and then doing things just for whatever personal reason and having a deprived childhood also.

Jeff: Well, so far I've also been compared to Les Mis and a couple of other things. So I guess I'm used to it.

Debbi: Well, it's a very interesting psychological makeup on this character, and I have to say that he's capable of doing some really nasty things when he has to, which would make him awfully hard to like if you didn't know his backstory. So what did you do? I mean, what sort of research did you do to get into his backstory?

Jeff: Well, I worked with a psychologist and I came up with a couple of basic things about him and ran them past her, and then she helped me refine it and bring it to a point. I don't know, every writer who is any good at all is at least part psychologist. But for me, one of my deep seated neuroses is that I try to get it as accurate as I can. So, I'd like to work with a psychologist, and we stuck Riley Wolfe in the pencil sharpener and kept turning until it was sharp enough.

Debbi: Well, that takes some doing. I mean, that's quite a bit of work right there.

Jeff: It was a job of work. Yes, ma'am.

Debbi: Did you devote a certain amount of time toward the research before you wrote? I mean, how much time exactly? Do you know?

Jeff: The character research and I guess physical, geographical research was a couple of years. Yeah. Hopefully that gets easier with each book. I don't need to do the background stuff anymore, but I do need to evolve it as I go. And a lot of the locations in the book are places I've been. I'll admit I hadn't been to Tehran and that doesn't seem likely either, but most of the other places I have been, I do know. I grew up in the South, so I know all of those places, too. And I've lived in New York City and most of the other places that he goes through in the book.

Debbi: Yeah. Psychologically, how does Riley compare to Dexter? They both invoke this darkness in one form or another when they do bad things, I noticed. Do you think that they are similar or different in various ways?

Jeff: They're very different.

Debbi: Yes. Yes, they are.

Jeff: Dexter is a sociopath. He doesn't have the empathy bump. He doesn't feel for his victims or anything else. With Riley, he's not a sociopath. But he's so driven. I'm sure you've known people who get so involved in doing a task, they get blinders on and they don't even notice that they're doing collateral damage around them. And that's more what Riley is. It goes into what he calls The Darkness when he kills someone. So that it's not, it's like he's not doing it. He's watching it being done, which is to protect, the feelings, the psychological background and so on. He's not really doing it. Whereas with Dexter, he wanted to enjoy every minute of it.

"Dexter is a sociopath. He doesn't have the empathy bump. He doesn't feel for his victims or anything else. With Riley, he's not a sociopath. But he's so driven. I'm sure you've known people who get so involved in doing a task, they get blinders on and they don't even notice that they're doing collateral damage around them. And that's more what Riley is."

Debbi: So the darkness for Riley is more like a denial.

Jeff: Yeah. Yes.

Debbi: A way of coping with it.

Jeff: Yes. For Riley, he has a series of rules, I call them Riley's Laws. Coincidentally, he calls them that, too. And Riley's first law is the job comes first. And that means whatever gets in the way of doing the job has to be pushed out of the way. So he doesn't set out to kill people. But if someone is in the way of getting the job done, he doesn't mind arranging an accident.

Debbi: Yes. Well, so what was it like to stop writing Dexter and start writing this character?

Jeff: It was like getting a divorce or having a loved one die or something. I went through the five stages of grief before I finally retreated into my normal anxiety and neurosis. And I really didn't want to stop because all my life I've wanted to be writing a series. And I felt like I was in the groove and I think the last book in the Dexter series, Dexter is Dead, available where fine books are sold, was one of the better ones of the series. I had a lot of people tell me that. And they say, "Why did you stop? You were really in the groove there." And that's the point. I wanted to more or less go out on top and stop before it started to get tired on me. So I did that. But if I'd realized how hard and how long it would take to move on to Riley Wolfe, I might've thought twice about that.

On ending the Dexter series: "It was like getting a divorce or having a loved one die or something. I went through the five stages of grief before I finally retreated into my normal anxiety and neurosis. And I really didn't want to stop because all my life I've wanted to be writing a series."

Debbi: Yeah, be careful what you wish for, huh? Can you give us a brief description of the story in Just Watch Me?

Jeff: Sure. Riley Wolfe, semi-spoiler alert, at the opening of the book, he's stealing a 12-ton metal statue in plain sight in broad daylight at its dedication ceremony. And as he's driving away with the money from his client in his bank account, he realizes it was too easy and everything has been too easy lately and he needs to do something impossible. Because otherwise he'll get complacent and make mistakes and it'll be over. So he finds something impossible, which is the crown jewels of Iran are coming on an exhibition tour to America. And they will be guarded by Star Trek type technology and a team of retired SEAL mercenaries and the full platoon of Iranian Revolutionary Guard.

So, it's impossible. It absolutely cannot be done. And Riley decides to do it, to steal some of the crown jewels of Iran. Now, just as background, this is maybe the most amazing collection ever seen anywhere. The Iranian crown jewels are ... it's a cliche to say beyond price, but they are. One small piece of it, the Daria-i-Noor is the largest pink diamond in the world and it is conservatively estimated to be worth 15 billion, with a B, dollars. So Riley Wolfe decides to steal it. And anything more that I say about that would be a spoiler. So I'll just say Forrest Gump. That's all I have to say about that.

Debbi: Yeah, I particularly like the FBI agent in the story by the way. Delgado. He's wonderful.

Jeff: He's sort of a nod to my childhood. He's Cuban-American and physically he's based on a classmate and friend of mine, [inaudible 00:12:26]. And mentally he's based on another classmate of mine in high school. And he just sort of combined to be this sort of sloppy looking physically, but mentally almost Riley's equal. And I thought that added,...

Debbi Mack interviews crime writer V.S. Kemanis on the Crime Cafe podcast.

Read along with the podcast or, if you’re in a rush, download a copy of the show notes here.

Debbi:   Hi everyone. This is the Crime Cafe, your podcasting source of great crime, suspense and thriller writing. I'm your host Debbi Mack. Before I bring on my guest, I'll just remind you that the Crime Cafe has two ebooks for sale: the nine book box set and the short story anthology. You can find the buy links for both on my website, debbimack.com, under the Crime Cafe link. You can also get a free copy of either book, if you become a Patreon supporter. You'll get that and much more if you support the podcast on Patreon, along with our eternal gratitude for doing so.

Debbi: Hi everyone. I'm so pleased to have with me today another lawyer who's written about what she knows. Her legal career is in criminal prosecution, but her creative pursuits include writing novels and short stories, as well as being a dancer and choreographer. Our guest today is V. S. Kemanis.

VSK: Hi Debbi.

Debbi: Hi. Hi Vija.

VSK: How are you? Thanks so much for inviting me.

Debbi: I am so glad you are here, and thank you for being here. I just finished your first novel and really enjoyed it. I assume it's safe to say that your protagonist, Dana Hargrove, was inspired or informed by your work as a district attorney?

VSK: Yes, indeed she was. I wrote that novel, the first draft of it, shortly after I had finished the first 10 years of my legal career. The first five years were as an assistant district attorney in Manhattan, and the second five years of that was with the New York State Organized Crime Task Force. And I kind of included both of those experiences and put them together to develop my character and also to develop the case that she was investigating in that novel.

I had just finished doing a big investigation and a case against the Colombian narcotics cartel operating in New York and mostly their money laundering activities, which were really fascinating and a lot of work. I worked on that for a good four years and so a lot of that went into the novel.

Debbi: That's really something. In your first book, Dana is a neophyte dealing with all these ethical issues and divided loyalties. I was impressed with the way you wove all the different levels of conflict into the story. Do you plot that out all ahead of time or do you plot some and improvise some?

VSK: I do some of both. Yes, I start out writing a novel with a general plan, a general plot idea, and I also write a very detailed outline before I actually launch into writing something, but invariably it ends up changing a little bit along the way as I write, and I realize that some things don't fit other things. I go back and review what I've written earlier on and have to change some things, but that's what really makes it exciting for me, I think. Because it really becomes its own work and the characters will lead you certain places.

"I start out writing a novel with a general plan, a general plot idea, and I also write a very detailed outline before I actually launch into writing something, but invariably it ends up changing a little bit along the way as I write, ... but that's what really makes it exciting for me, I think. Because it really becomes its own work and the characters will lead you certain places."

But certainly in terms of the broad outlines, I have usually in mind the cases that I'd like to highlight in the novel. Also ethical conflicts as you noted. I tend to really love those.

Debbi: Those are great.

VSK: Yeah, both the legal professional ethics as well as just personal moral dilemmas that people are faced with. All my novels have the interplay between the professional and the personal, which is an area that just really fascinates me, because it was a big challenge in my life as ... working very hard and trying to raise a family at the same time, so.

Debbi: My goodness, I got to say my hat's off to you. You started off writing short stories because you said they were easier to squeeze into the cracks. That was it. Squeeze between the cracks of a demanding legal career. Do you enjoy writing short fiction?

VSK: Oh, I love it. Yeah, that was my start, and it's very satisfying to be able to work on a shorter project and then come out with something, a finished project within a couple of weeks. With a novel you have to really devote a long time as you know, spending a year or more getting it together, but it's very satisfying to write a short story.

And the other thing about it is I love language. I love playing with words and the way they sound, and the way you put them together, and how they come up with different feelings the way you put them together, so that in a short story you have to be very concise, very exact, have no wasted words and come up with the mood or the feeling that you'd like at the end of it. So it's a challenge and it's fun and satisfying all in one.

"I love playing with words and the way they sound, and the way you put them together, ... in a short story you have to be very concise, very exact, have no wasted words and come up with the mood or the feeling that you'd like at the end of it. So it's a challenge and it's fun and satisfying all in one."

Debbi: I just have to say, do you think it's a particular challenge for somebody like a lawyer who is so used to explaining everything in minute detail, in their normal writing, say your legal writing?

VSK: It is definitely, no question about it. And in my earlier drafts of my novel, sometimes when I have my beta readers read them and they go, "Yeah, you know, that's just a little bit too much detail there." You know, us lawyers probably just really get off on a whole big long legal discussion on, you know, going off on tangents and everything else. But the reader wants to get to the point. So that has been a challenge in writing the novels and I enjoy that too.

I go through after the first draft and there are many, many, many drafts and just pulling things out, and trying to distill the legal parts of it to a very understandable form and entertaining form too. Because as you know in the courtroom, sometimes things are a little bit boring. It's not always all excitement.

Debbi: Exactly.

VSK: So yeah, you pull out the exciting moments and it doesn't make it inaccurate, but it makes it more exciting. Definitely leave out the stuff you don't need to have in there.

Debbi: Or leave out the parts people skip as Elmore Leonard said.

VSK: Exactly. Right.

Debbi: What made you decide to have several years passed between each of the books in the series?

VSK: That idea came to me after I'd written the first one, which I started out in this, not really intending necessarily to have a whole series, but after I wrote the first one, which by the way went through many, many, many drafts and was written in the mid-'90s and wasn't published until 2012, so you could see what happened to that one.

But when it was finally published, I said, "Boy, I really like this character." But at that point I had a whole lot in my own legal career, and so I had tons of ideas in my head and wanted to have an experienced lawyer protagonist. And so I couldn't keep her as a rookie. I wanted to skip several years from my next book to make her an experienced prosecutor, which she is in the next book called Homicide Chart. She is a good seven years into her career and she is prosecuting homicides, which is only given to the more experienced prosecutors.

And then I just liked her so much, I wanted to continue on and also explore different stages of her life and career. That made it interesting for me because, of course, if you skip six years down the road, her family's very different, her family life. Her career is very different and it made it more interesting for me. Plus they are very, they're stand-alones. You don't need to necessarily read each one in order, although you will get a little bit more depth of character if you do that, but you don't have to.

About her protagonist: "I just liked her so much, I wanted to continue on and also explore different stages of her life and career. That made it interesting for me because, of course, if you skip six years down the road, her family's very different, her family life. Her career is very different and it made it more interesting for me."

Debbi: I was going to say there's at least a theme of her, a thematic tie-in between all of them in terms of it's always Dana and she's come a little bit farther each time.

VSK: Exactly. Yes. Yes. She's come further. The first book, she's a rookie. Second book, she's a real experienced prosecutor. The third book, she's a supervisor and she's supervising an inexperienced felony assistant DA. In the fourth book, she's an elected DA of a suburban county, actually where I live, so you can guess where that is, north of New York City. And the fifth book, which is going to come out in January. She's a judge.

Debbi: Cool.

VSK: So that makes it interesting too. We get all aspects of her career.

Debbi: I love that. That is such a great concept. I suppose you didn't really start off thinking about that particular story arc when you started with the first book, did you? It just sort of came to you?

VSK: It just kind of came to me along the way.

Debbi: Wow! That's really cool.

VSK: And also the other thing that's really interesting is that when you have things take place in different years, there are different kinds of cases that maybe are more prominent during that particular time period.

For example, the fourth book which came out last year, Deep Zero, dealt with cyberbullying in a high school setting, which is really in the news a lot. So when you, and again, the first book that was at the height of the Columbia narcotics cartel cocaine trade in New York city in the '8