Guest: Dr. Nathalie Pattyn

In this episode, Jon sits down with Dr. Nathalie Pattyn, whose unique background spans medicine, psychology, research, and military operations. Dr. Pattyn discusses her unconventional career path from aspiring astronaut to emergency physician to tactical performance researcher, including her work in extreme environments like Antarctica and space research.

The conversation explores how scientific principles can improve tactical performance for law enforcement teams. Dr. Pattyn shares practical insights on decision-making under pressure, stress management, and optimizing human performance in high-stakes situations—essential knowledge for SWAT teams and tactical operators seeking evidence-based approaches to enhance their operational effectiveness.

John Boyd's OODA loop is widely referenced but fundamentally misunderstood. Mark McGrath reveals how the common circular diagram represents less than one percent of Boyd's work. The real framework centers on orientation—constantly updating mental models through destruction and creation. This conversation explores entropy, uncertainty, and incompleteness as foundations for adaptive decision-making in tactical operations, business strategy, and leadership.

Guest Information:

Mark McGrath Marine Corps Veteran, Master's Degree in Economics, Author of 'The Whirl of Reorientation' Substack, Co-Host of 'No Way Out' Podcast

A three-month homicide investigation in Washington State led to a suspect barricaded in a vehicle inside a garage. What began as a routine containment evolved into a seven-hour standoff, which suddenly escalated when the freed domestic violence victim returned to the residence and was taken hostage. Joel Anderson and Bob Shaw detail the tactical challenges of coordinating Pierce County and Washington State Patrol SWAT teams through multiple operational phases—from vehicle barricade to urgent hostage rescue—all while managing the unpredictable dynamics of a DV relationship and a suspect determined to avoid capture.

GUEST INFORMATION
Joel Anderson
Tactical Commander, Washington State Patrol SWAT Team, Vice President of Washington State Tactical Officers Association

Bob Shaw
Patrol Sergeant, Pierce County Sheriff's Department SWAT Team, Washington State Tactical Officers Association Cadre Member

DME 09 - Barricade Erupts into Urgent HRT

DME 08

In September of 2021 a suspect involved in a carjacking and attempted homicide led police in a vehicle pursuit that ended in a car crash in Farmington Utah.  The suspect fled on foot across Interstate 15 into a residential neighborhood prompting patrol officers to establish a perimeter and begin a search with a K9 unit.  During the search a single gunshot was heard,  South Davis Metropolitan SWAT and North Davis Metropolitan SWAT were both activated to conduct a house -to-house search. Operators discovered a bullet hole in a residence window, and shortly after, a male exited nearby home in a vehicle. He was stopped and informed operators that his family was being held hostage and that the suspect had sent him to check for police. As operators moved toward the residence, a juvenile female escaped through a window. Debriefing the father and daughter, it became clear that three more hostages remained inside the home with an armed suspect. Negotiated side and a handgun was recovered next to his body. My guest today is Lieutenant Andrew Smith. Andrew began his law enforcement career with the Utah Highway Patrol in 2008. In 2011, he left the highway and began working for the West Bountiful Police Department. He joined the South Davis Metropolitan SWAT team in 2012 and eventually moved to the Bountiful City Police Department in 2013, where he worked his way through various assignments and promoted to the rank of lieutenant and team commander of the South Davis Metropolitan SWAT team. Anders held numerous leadership positions in the department, including FTO, lead scout, entry team member, and assistant team leader, and is currently the South Davis Metropolitan SWAT team commander. He's been honored with numerous unit citations as a member of the police department and SWAT team, including his involvement in two hostage rescue operations and two Bountiful City Police Department chief stars, one of which was for his response to an active shooter at a local junior high.

Contact Info:

Lt Andrew Smith – [email protected]

Books

Legacy by James Kerr – ISBN-13 - 978-1472103536 

My guest today is Dr. Jenny Prohaska, a clinical psychologist who has spent her career on the front lines of trauma and high-stakes performance. Jenny trained in neuro -rehabilitation psychology at the University of Kansas Medical Center, working with patients and staff in trauma, ICU, and burn units, where she built her expertise in how the brain and body adapt to extreme stress. For more than a decade, Jenny has brought that expertise into policing and tactical operations. She's force science certified and consults on more than 30 officer -involved shootings a year, as well as hundreds of other critical incidents. Jenny’s conducted thousands of pre-hire psychological evaluations, giving her deep expertise in what makes officers and teams thrive or deteriorate under pressure. She's also built and trained more than two dozen peer support teams across the country and today consults for more than 50 public safety agencies. Jenny's also a sought-after speaker for national organizations. She's a founder of tactical longevity, a first -of -its -kind, pre-incident anti -fragility training framework designed to prepare officers and tactical teams to withstand the cumulative stress of their job. I'm excited to talk to Jenny because I've been a fan of her work for a number of years, and I believe that antifragility and prehabilitation programs promoting this concept of tactical longevity and talking about it and teaching.

Links

Tactical Longevity | Anti-Fragility Training

Books

What Happened to You? Bruce D. Perry and Oprah Winfrey – ISBN-13 – 978-1250223180

On October 12th, 2020, Bakersfield police responded to a hospital on a domestic violence call to a female who had been hit in the head with a hammer by her ex-husband. When patrol officers arrived at the suspect's house, the male suspect exited the home, screaming at police and threw an improvised explosive device at officers. Negotiations with the suspect began, who initially appeared to be negotiating in good faith, But after two hours, it became apparent the suspect was not going to comply, and the Bakersfield Special Operations Group was activated. In the ensuing 12 -hour standoff, the team became aware that the suspect had his four-year-old son with him and was an Army combat veteran who had explosive devices in the home. With me today are Captain Ted King and Sergeant Travis Harless from Bakersfield Police to discuss the case.

My guest today is Patrick Van Horne.   Patrick is the co- author of Left Of Bang: How the Marine Corps combat hunter program can save your life.  He is also the co-founder of the CP journal where he supports clients in preventing, preparing for, and proactively responding to disasters, disruptions and acts of violence.  After starting his career is an infantry officer in the Marine Corps following the September 11 attacks,  Patrick has supported public and private sector organizations in disaster, preparedness and violence prevention initiative as an entrepreneur, consultant, local emergency manager and volunteer for over 20 years.  Patrick’s book Left Of Bang described an innovative program that taught deploying marines how to proactively recognize threats, assess human behavior and gain an advantage over the nation’s adversary. This approach has since been adopted by organizations around the world to prepare for an uncertain future, prevent violence, enhance healthcare delivery, focus cyber security operations, tailor educational programs and improve decision-making.

Links

Homepage: www.cp-journal.com

The Evolution of Left of Bang (this article shows how the topic/idea has grown and expanded since the book was published). 

The Tactical Analysis Course (this is the overview page of the video-based course of the behaviors and approach written about in the book). 

Books

Mastery - Robert Greene - ISBN-13: ‎ 978-1101601020

The Warrior Ethos- Stephen Pressfield - ISBN-13: ‎ 978-1936891009