The Elements of Deep Sea Mining

In the second half of this conversation, Jesse digs deeper into the specifics of the potential environmental impacts from deep sea mining, as well as getting into regulatory frameworks and the importance of trust to the future of deep sea mining.

Dr. Jesse van der Grient is a quantitative ecologist whose work focuses on how ecosystems connect — across habitats, species, and stressors. She brings a neutral, science-based perspective through her work with the Deep Ocean Stewardship Initiative (DOSI), a network of experts that does not advocate for or against deep-sea mining, but provides the science needed for informed decision-making.

Chapters

00:00 Risks of Deep Sea Mining: Sedimentation and Species Vulnerability07:32 Understanding Species-Specific Responses to Environmental Changes10:03 Categories of Impacts in Deep Sea Mining14:43 The Role of Light Pollution and Other Environmental Concerns16:04 Carbon Sequestration and Its Implications19:17 Technological Solutions and Regulatory Frameworks21:42 The Importance of Trust in Regulatory Discussions27:20 Navigating the Complexities of International Regulations33:27 Balancing Benefits and Drawbacks in Decision Making

Theme Music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

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Dr. Jesse van der Grient is a quantitative ecologist whose work focuses on how ecosystems connect — across habitats, species, and stressors. She brings a neutral, science-based perspective through her work with the Deep Ocean Stewardship Initiative (DOSI), a network of experts that does not advocate for or against deep-sea mining, but provides the science needed for informed decision-making.

Jesse puts detials to the biology of the deep ocean and unpacks the interactions of deep-sea ecosystems and what they mean for the future of seabed mining.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Deep Sea Mining and Ecosystems 01:47 Understanding Marine Biodiversity and Management 04:15 Research Journey: From Marine Biology to Deep Sea Mining 06:57 Complex Interactions: Stressors in Marine Environments 09:28 Ecosystem Modeling and Its Challenges 12:42 Ecosystem Services and Fisheries Overlap 15:26 Impacts of Sediment Plumes on Marine Life 18:20 The Role of Indicator Species in Ecosystem Health 21:29 Data Gaps in Deep Sea Research 24:01 Cumulative Impacts and Future Directions 29:01 Ecosystem Insights: Bridging Shallow and Deep Sea Research 33:03 Understanding Deep Sea Ecosystems and Mining Vulnerabilities 37:19 Connectivity in Deep Sea Populations: Implications for Conservation 43:31 Comparing Deep Sea and Terrestrial Ecosystems: A Complex Debate 47:37 Uncertainty in Deep Sea Research: The Need for Comprehensive Sampling 53:30 Risks of Deep Sea Mining: Sedimentation and Species Vulnerability Theme Music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

Key takeaways

* “We need to understand what is being managed… the connections in the deep ocean people don’t always know about or understand very well.”

* “Two stressors can cancel each other out, or they can amplify each other. More often than not, we see synergistic impacts.”

* “Counting parts doesn’t tell you if the car works. In ecosystems, knowing species numbers isn’t enough — we need to know how it functions.”

Links and resources

* Jesse’s Research Gate profile: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jesse-Van-Der-Grient

* Deep Ocean Stewardship Initiative (DOSI): dosi-project.org

* DOSI Minerals Working Group: https://www.dosi-project.org/minerals/

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Coalter Lathrop is Principal and Founder at Sovereign Geographic as well as a lecturer on international law of the sea. He joins me on the podcast to express his concerns over the United States’ potential sanctioning of mineral recovery in the international seabed outside of UNCLOS framework.

Follow Coalter:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/coalter-g-lathrop-7372bb6/

Chapters

00:00 Concerns Over U.S. Maritime Law and Deep Seabed Mining03:48 Expertise and Background in Maritime Law07:18 Maritime Border Disputes and Their Importance11:58 The Law of the Sea and Deep Seabed Mining17:32 The Unlawfulness of U.S. Unilateral Mining Permits22:14 Differences in Mining Licenses: TMC vs. Lockheed Martin27:32 The Role of the International Seabed Authority37:58 The Impact of U.S. Executive Orders on Maritime Law43:32 Concerns About the Rule of Law in Ocean Governance48:46 Historical Context of UNCLOS and Its Significance54:20 The Evolution of Maritime Jurisdiction Zones59:04 The Scarcity Narrative Behind UNCLOS01:04:06 The Risks of Unilateral Actions in Maritime Law01:09:38 The Importance of International Cooperation01:14:38 Trade-offs in Environmental and Economic Concerns01:20:26 Legal vs. Ethical Issues in Maritime Law01:26:08 Final Thoughts and Resources for Further Learning

Theme Music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

Further reading

Coalter Lathrop: Op-ed: The international legal risks of TMC’s new America Alone approach (Iceberg research) https://iceberg-research.com/2025/06/25/op-ed-the-international-legal-risks-of-tmcs-new-america-alone-approach/

Coalter Lathrop: The Latest Trump Threat to International Law: Unilaterally Mining the Area (EJIL Talk!) https://www.ejiltalk.org/the-latest-trump-threat-to-international-law-unilaterally-mining-the-area/

Coalter Lathrop: Payne Institute Webinar | The United States Reenters Deep Seabed Mining for Critical Minerals https://www.kaltura.com/index.php/extwidget/preview/partner_id/5642122/uiconf_id/53713682/entry_id/1_m4ibvfoy/embed/iframe

Coalter Lathrop: The Modern Political Map of Our Ocean Planet (Brown Journal of World Affairs) https://bjwa.brown.edu/25-2/lathrop-the-modern-political-map-of-our-ocean-planet/

Joanna Dingwall: International Law and Corporate Actors in Deep Seabed Mining (Oxford Univ. Press) https://www.wildy.com/isbn/9780192898265/international-law-and-corporate-actors-in-deep-seabed-mining-hardback-oxford-university-press

Toby Fisher and Samantha Robb - Untouchable metals: How the obligations of UNCLOS States Parties limit the commercial viability of unilateral deep sea mining (EJIL Talk!) https://www.ejiltalk.org/untouchable-metals-how-the-obligations-of-unclos-states-parties-limit-the-commercial-viability-of-unilateral-deep-sea-mining/

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Andreas Svanlund—business strategist, public speaker, and corporate executive— had early involvement in shaping discussions around Norway’s emerging deep-sea mineral industry. He has worked at the intersection of geopolitics, supply chains, and resource strategy, helping to connect the dots between marine minerals and questions of resilience and security. From advising and building networks across politics, diplomacy, and industry, to contributing to the broader debate leading up to Norway’s 2024 parliamentary decision on exploration, Andreas brings an inside view of how this new sector is taking shape.

Follow Andreas:

Substack: www.andreassvanlund.substack.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreas-svanlund-74108747/

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction to Deep Sea Mining and Its Context03:29 Andreas Svanlund's Background and Experience05:14 The Shift in Narrative: From Sustainability to Security07:27 Understanding Vulnerabilities in Mineral Supply Chains12:38 Drivers of Change in the International Economy14:58 The Deconstruction of Stability in Global Systems22:58 The Future of Deep Sea Mining in Norway25:20 The Importance of Resilience in Mineral Sourcing28:01 The Environmental and Economic Implications of Mining30:18 The Strategic Importance of Minerals for National Security39:48 Geopolitical Influences on Deep Sea Mining41:40 The Role of Politics in Mining Regulations44:33 Media Bias and Public Perception47:56 Resistance to Change in Deep Sea Mining51:37 The Importance of Trust in Decision-Making56:34 Navigating Trade-Offs in Mining Decisions01:01:39 Building Trust Through Common Goals01:06:36 Decentralization and Innovation in Industry01:13:49 Finding Common Purpose in Society

Theme Music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

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Full write-up and links to articles discussed can be found at Elyse's Notes From the Deep Substack: notesfromthedeep.substack.com

Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Deep Sea Mining News Roundup 01:21 Emerging Narratives in Deep Sea Mining 03:56 Shifts in Global Power Dynamics 07:14 The Role of the International Seabed Authority 11:10 The Metals Company and U.S. Regulations 14:35 TMC's Agreements and Strategic Moves 29:16 Deep Sea Mining Processing Challenges 32:45 US Deep Sea Mining Applications 36:29 Public Engagement and Regulatory Updates 38:56 International Cooperation in Deep Sea Mining 43:39 Emerging Technologies and Environmental Concerns 45:52 Japan's Government-Funded Mining Initiatives 49:27 Recent Scientific Discoveries in Deep Sea Ecosystems 54:16 The Intersection of Politics and Deep Sea Mining

Theme Music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

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Aiste is a researcher at the University of Bergen whose work sits at the intersection of science, policy, and public discourse on deep sea mining.

The conversation explores how scientific knowledge shapes (and sometimes complicates) policy decisions, why more research doesn’t always lead to clarity, and how the Norwegian decision-making process around deep sea mining has unfolded—often in ways that surprise the scientists involved. Aiste also reflects on what it means to be a “neutral” scientist, the challenges of multidisciplinary collaboration, and the importance of being transparent about your role in shaping public decisions.

If you’re trying to understand how complex environmental decisions actually get made, this episode offers a nuanced, thought-provoking window into the process.

Follow Aiste

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aisteklimasauskaite/ResearchGate: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Aiste-Klimasauskaite-2

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Deep Sea Mining and Research03:30 The Role of Scientists in Public Discourse14:57 The Impact of Knowledge on Policy and Decision-Making21:36 Impact Assessments and Scientific Knowledge40:40 Quality vs. Neutrality in Scientific Research46:12 Trust in Science and Professional Networks51:59 Siloing in Science and Interdisciplinary Collaboration55:07 Decision-Making in Complex Value Situations01:03:39 The Precautionary Principle in Environmental Decision-Making01:07:18 Conservatism in Environmental Preservation01:16:42 The Role of Scientific Community in Policy01:21:00 Challenges in Global Governance of Ocean Resources01:28:12 The Importance of Purpose in Environmental DiscussionsTheme music: Tamarack by Jesse Matas

Mentioned Resources & Further Reading:

* Think Again: How to Reason and Argue by Walter Sinnott-Armstrong

* Sandra Harding's work on scientific neutrality

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Pradeep Arjan Singh — International ocean governance expert, Senior Project Manager at the Oceano Azul Foundation, and advisor to the IUCN. Pradeep works at the intersection of environmental law, global equity, and multilateral ocean negotiations.

* LinkedIn: Pradeep Arjan Singh - https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradeeparjansingh/

* Oceano Azul Foundation -https://oceanoazulfoundation.org

🧭 Episode Overview

In this foundational episode, Pradeep Singh takes us inside the legal architecture of the deep sea. We cover:

* How the ISA came to be and what it’s actually supposed to do

* Why the two-year rule was created and what it’s triggering has accomplished

* The U.S. vs the ISA process

* The difficultires of benefit-sharing and compensation mechanisms

* What to expect at this year’s council meetings

* What kind of research and financial modeling is still missing

Whether you’re policy-curious or professionally involved in seabed governance, this is a must-listen.

⏱️ Chapter Highlights

00:00 – From Malaysia to multilateral negotiations: Pradeep’s legal background04:00 – The role of Oceano Azul, UNFCCC, CBD, and BBNJ11:00 – UNCLOS, the ISA, and why deep-sea mining triggered global treaty-making27:00 – What’s missing from the regulations: enforcement, liability, and monitoring33:00 – Benefit-sharing and the $95k problem45:00 – The two-year rule: origin, misuse, and consequences55:00 – U.S. unilateral mining: legal and environmental risks1:02:00 – Debunking geopolitics and the myth of metal scarcity1:10:00 – What we still don’t know: scaling, cumulative impacts, and economic modeling

Theme music: Tamarack by Jesse Matas

🔗 References & Resources

* John Mero (1965) on seabed mineral wealth -https://www.sciencedirect.com/bookseries/elsevier-oceanography-series/vol/1

* Pradeep’s publication on the history and legal basis for moratorium: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00908320.2024.2439877

* Nagoya Protocol (CBD) – model for benefit-sharing

https://www.cbd.int/abs/default.shtml

* Earth Negotiations Bulletin – daily negotiation coverage https://enb.iisd.org/international-seabed-authority-isa-council-30-2

* Deep Ocean Stewardship Initiative (DOSI) – minerals

https://www.dosi-project.org/minerals/

* ISA Web TV – live council and assembly sessions

https://www.isa.org.jm/the-authority-web-tv/

* IUCN Briefings – DSM: https://iucn.org/resources/issues-brief/deep-sea-mining

Progress Amidst Challenges: IUCN Reflections on the ISA Council's 30th Session (Part 1) : https://iucn.org/story/202504/progress-amidst-challenges-iucn-reflections-isa-councils-30th-session-part-1#:~:text=IUCN%20remains%20committed%20to%20the,a%20transparent%20and%20inclusive%20manner.

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Mats Ingulstad — historian at NTNU and lead of the TripleDeep project. His research explores the political economy of minerals and the role of the ocean in the industrial and geopolitical imagination of the 20th century.

Get in touch with Mats here: https://www.ntnu.edu/employees/mats.ingulstad

🧭 Episode Overview

In this second part of our conversation, we trace the forgotten history of deep sea mining—from the 19th-century Challenger expedition to Cold War anxieties and 21st-century geopolitics. Mats unpacks how policymakers came to see the ocean as both a limitless source of minerals and a pressure valve for post-war scarcity fears. We explore how ideas of abundance, global equity, and national security shaped early efforts to regulate the seafloor—and why those debates still echo today.

📌 Episode Highlights

00:00 — The Challenger expedition and the first discovery of manganese nodules02:35 — Fritz Haber and the dream of gold from seawater03:50 — WWII, Korean War, and fears of mineral depletion05:05 — The 1960s growth model and minerals as a peace dividend06:40 — “Common heritage of mankind”: abundance, not scarcity08:15 — Scientific misconceptions about deep sea ecosystems09:55 — Deep sea mining as a central issue in UNCLOS negotiations11:00 — 1980s market optimism and the “dematerialization” thesis12:15 — China, rare earths, and the return of mineral geopolitics13:30 — The EU’s “blue growth” vision for ocean mining14:45 — The uneven playing field: cheap nodules vs. land-based producers17:00 — Calls for production caps to protect terrestrial economies19:45 — Deep sea mining as “the poor man’s space mining”21:10 — The Jevons Paradox: will DSM reduce or increase extraction?22:35 — The shift from climate framing to national security framing25:10 — Making decisions across incomparable value categories26:10 — Why we need historians, philosophers, and social scientists in this space28:40 — Where we’re at today: too early to decide, but better informed29:50 — Reading suggestions and the conceptual challenge of writing a history of a non-existent industryTheme music: Tamarack by Jesse Matas

📚 Resources Mentioned

* Helen Rozwadowski – books on the history and imagination of the ocean

http://fathomingtheocean.com/books/

* Tirza Meyer – https://tirzameyer.com/books/

* Oles Sparrenberg – German-language book on deep sea mining in Germany

paper in english: A historical perspective on deep-sea mining for manganese nodules, 1965–2019 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214790X18303137

* TripleDeep project (NTNU) – interdisciplinary research on DSM

https://www.ntnu.edu/sustainability/tripledeep

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I sit down with Mats Ingulstad, professor at NTNU, whose research bridges the history of strategic materials, global supply chains, and the political economy of critical minerals. Mats takes us on a journey from his early studies in U.S. foreign economic policy to his pioneering research on deep-sea mining.

We explore the origins of strategic and critical minerals policies, tracing them back to the First and Second World Wars, where nations scrambled to secure resources for military and economic stability. Mats discusses the evolution of these policies, highlighting the tensions between military necessity and global trade that still resonate today.

We also dive deep into the complexities of Norway’s political landscape around resource governance—how the country managed its oil wealth, set up a model for state-controlled resource rents, and the current debates surrounding deep-sea mining in Norwegian waters. Mats provides historical context to Norway's decisions, comparing them with other resource-dependent nations like Canada, and unpacks why Norway's model succeeded where others struggled.

Finally, Mats sheds light on the broader historical narrative of deep-sea mining: from its early conceptualization during the Cold War as a solution to mineral scarcity to its resurgence as part of the green energy transition. He explains how this shift from "abundance" to "scarcity" frames the current political and environmental debate.

If you're curious about how history shapes today’s political decisions around critical minerals and the deep-sea mining debate, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.

Key Takeaways:

* The historical roots of critical minerals policy and their military origins.

* How Norway's political structure enabled unique resource governance models.

* The complex legacy of deep-sea mining as a strategic and economic opportunity.

* Why the political framing of resource abundance vs. scarcity matters today.

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Mats03:47 Historical Context of Strategic and Critical Minerals06:01 The Evolution of Resource Management in Warfare08:17 Personal Journey into Academia and Deep Sea Mining09:43 Norway's Approach to Natural Resource Governance12:30 Trust and Society's Attitude Towards Deep Sea Mining14:33 Political Discussion and Public Perception of Deep Sea Mining17:10 Comparative Analysis: Norway vs. Canada in Resource Management19:23 The Role of Historical Context in Resource Exploitation21:38 Current Challenges in Deep Sea Mining Regulation24:03 Future of Deep Sea Mining and Societal Trust37:04 Navigating Resource Rent Tax Challenges39:40 Norway's Strategic Decisions in Oil Management45:15 The Role of State in Economic Development48:58 Pension Fund and Statoil: A Model for Success53:40 Risks of Deep Sea Mining: A Geopolitical Perspective57:50 Understanding Uncertainty in Resource Projections01:04:34 Balancing Public and Private Interests in ExplorationTheme music: Tamarack by Jesse Matas

Links to Mats’ related research projects

Fate of Nations. Natural resources and historical development, 1880-2015.

The high seas and the deep oceans. 3ROceans: Representations, resources and regulatory governance.

The Deep Dilemmas: Deep Sea Mining for the new Deep Transition? (TripleDeep)

This is part 1 of a 2 part episode tune in next week for the remainder of the conversation.

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In this episode, I talk with Scott Vincent, an investor and advocate for deep-sea mining who founded the Critical Ocean Minerals Resource Center to challenge what he sees as misinformation about seabed mineral extraction. Scott brings his deep expertise from the investment world to discuss the economic, environmental, and social trade-offs associated with deep-sea mining. Scott emphasizes the importance of acknowledging trade-offs in deep-sea mining, arguing that it can be a cleaner alternative to terrestrial mining. The conversation also touches on investment perspectives, regulatory challenges, and the need for a balanced dialogue in the ongoing debate about deep sea mining.

If you have feedback or recommendations, please reach out to me by email: [email protected]

Timestamps

00:00 Intro and Housekeeping03:19 Introducing Scott Vincent04:24 Scott’s Path to Deep Sea Mining07:25 Why Nodules Seemed Like a Win-Win09:32 About the Critical Ocean Minerals Resource Center (COMRC)12:01 The Impact of Misinformation and the Moratorium14:22 What the Executive Order Really Does16:06 Trade-Offs: How Should We Think About Them?24:38 Unknowns, Externalities, and Jevons Paradox34:47 Processing, Solid Waste, and Tailings Dams39:37 Land Use and Indirect Impacts of Mining44:34 The Investor's Perspective on DSM48:57 Modeling and Processing as Key Variables55:17 Comparing DSM to Junior Mining Investment58:37 WWF Critique and Misinformation Claims1:09:12 The Role of NGOs: Help or Hindrance?1:10:37 Technology Choices and NGO Influence1:14:32 Polarization and Paths to Dialogue1:17:59 US regulatory approach1:23:30 Final Thoughts and Where to Learn More

Theme music: Tamarack by Jesse Matas

Links and References

Where to Find Scott

* Twitter: @COMRC_org

* LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/scott-vincent-241b1426/

* Critical Ocean Minerals Resource Center (COMRC): www.COMRC.org

LCAs and comparative studies

* Life Cycle Assessment of NORI-D Polymetallic Nodule Project and Comparison to Key Land-based Routes for Producing Nickel, Cobalt and Copper: https://metals.co/bmi-lca-report/

* Where should metals for the green transition come from? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355944407_LCA-White-Paper_Where-Should-Metals-for-the-Green-Transition-Come-From_FINAL_low-res2

* Paulikas, D. (2022). Deep-sea nodules versus land ores: A comparative systems analysis of mining and processing wastes for battery-metal supply chains. Journal of Industrial Ecology, 2154-2177. doi: https://doi.org/10.1111/jiec.13225

* Alvarenga (2022) Prospective life cycle assessment of metal commodities obtained from deep-sea polymetallic nodules: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652621040543

* Comparing environmental impacts of deep-seabed and land-based mining: A defensible framework https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/gcb.17334

* Metal mining on land versus the ocean in the context of the current Biodiversity Crisis https://www.nature.com/articles/s44183-025-00110-z

COMRC Reports:

* All reports: https://comrc.org/research/

* "The Deadly Moratorium": https://comrc.org/a-deadly-moratorium/

World Wildlife Fund (WWF) Investigations:

* Original investigative report from BuzzFeed: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tomwarren/wwf-world-wide-fund-nature-parks-torture-death and Buzz Feed’s dedicated page https://www.buzzfeed.com/uk/tag/world-wildlife-fund

* WWF-commissioned Independent Panel Review: Independent Review: https://www.worldwildlife.org/pages/embedding-human-rights-in-conservation

* Related news coverage: Professor John Knox Testifies before Members of U.S. House Natural Resources Committee on Human Rights and International Conservation: https://law.wfu.edu/2021/10/john-knox-house-natural-resources-committee-testimony/

If you have feedback or recommendations, please reach out to me by email: [email protected]

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