The Elements of Deep Sea Mining

I’m joined by Matthew Gianni, an independent consultant, advisor, and advocate for marine conservation based in the Netherlands. He is co-founder of the Deep Sea Conservation Coalition and currently serves as its Political and Policy Advisor. Matthew has been involved in international fisheries and marine conservation law and policy for nearly 30 years, working across the UN General Assembly, FAO, regional fisheries bodies, and the International Seabed Authority.

In this wide-ranging conversation, we dig into the core dilemmas of seabed mining: governance, biodiversity loss, economic trade-offs, and the moral responsibility of global decision-makers. Matthew brings clarity, depth, and a global perspective on one of the most pressing environmental issues of our time.

Follow Matthew

* Twitter (X): x.com/GianniMatthew

* LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/matthew-gianni-2934b514/

* Deep Sea Conservation Coalition: deep-sea-conservation.org

🔍 Chapters

(00:00:00) — Intro

(00:02:00) — Matt’s winding career path(00:04:40) — How the Deep Sea Conservation Coalition began(00:08:58) — Trawling vs. mining: a warning from history(00:14:56) — Lessons from 20 years of governance battles(00:20:54) — “Biodiversity loss is inevitable.”(00:33:12) — Who wins, who loses(00:39:10) — The trade-offs we rarely talk about(00:52:11) — The false dichotomy: land or sea(01:03:48) — How the ISA works—and why that matters(01:10:26) — “Serious negotiations by serious governments.”(01:16:32) — The ISA’s enforcement gap(01:23:50) — Why a precautionary pause isn’t radical(01:30:04) — Power dynamics at the ISA(01:38:40) — Ethics, governance, and legacy

Theme music: Tamarack by Jesse Matas

🔗 Additional Resources Mentioned

* MIDAS Project: www.eu-midas.net

* UNEP Finance Initiative 2022 Report: https://www.unep.org/annualreport/2022

* The Metals Company (TMC) Life Cycle Assessment Report: https://metals.co/bmi-lca-report/

* Nature Article by Verena Tunnicliffe et al.: https://www.nature.com/articles/s44183-025-00110-z

* International Telecommunitation Untion report on E-waste

https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Environment/Pages/Publications/The-Global-E-waste-Monitor-2024.aspx

Corrections

It isn’t easy to speak for nearly 2 hours without notes. Here are a few corrections Matt would like to make:

* 49:26 & 53:36 cobalt and copper should have been cobalt and nickel

“estimates of future demand for metals, primarily for batteries, for cobalt copper primarily for for building electric vehicles”

“But there is an alternative, which is invest in circular economy initiatives or invest in terrestrial mining for metals that are far more abundant than cobalt and copper are and that can be sourced from any number of different parts of the world as opposed to a few key types of ecosystems or national jurisdictions.

* 50:26 metazoan species should have been megafauna

“Up to half of the species, the larger species, the metazoan species in that area that have been discovered to date are likely to be nodule-obligate species, meaning they depend on the nodules for some portion of the life history, or they are species that depend on the species that depend on the nodules.

* 55:10 the International Telegraphic Union should have been International Telecommuncation Union

“the International Telegraphic Union, I think based in Geneva, puts out periodic reports. I don't think they're quite annual reports, but on how much e-waste is thrown away every year. And they estimate over 50 million tons of electronic waste is thrown out every year, of which less than 20% is recycled.”

* Also, Matt would like to emphasize the need for Free Prior and Informed Consent of Indigenous People as one of the reasons the DSCC are calling for a moratorium/precautionary pause.

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In this episode, I sit down with Lyle Trytten — the self-proclaimed “Nickel Nerd” and global expert in mineral processing and sustainability — to explore the lesser-discussed stages of the mineral supply chain. We cover the differences between mining, processing, and refining; what tailings really are and why they matter; and where the real ESG impacts happen in the value chain. If you think mining stops when the ore hits the deck, this episode is for you.

🕐 Timestamps:

* 02:58 — Lyle’s background: From Alberta to global projects

* 11:31 — Why the conversation around mining vs. processing is too shallow

* 13:57 — What’s the difference between mining, processing, and refining?

* 18:54 — What are tailings? Why do they matter?

* 24:54 — Tailings as potential carbon sinks… or pollution sources

* 27:37 — Why no two tailings sites are the same

* 31:22 — What happens during the refining stage

* 36:09 — “Everything wants to be rust”: Oxides, reduction, and metals

* 39:56 — Where mining impacts really happen along the value chain

* 41:56 — Breaking down ESG into land, air, and water impacts

* 46:45 — Why Russia’s nickel plant is still the world’s biggest SO₂ emitter

Theme music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

🔗 Links & Resources:

* Follow Lyle Trytten on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lyle-trytten/

* Read his white papers on sustainability in the resource industry: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lyle-trytten/recent-activity/documents/

* 🎧 Listen to Part 2 of this interview →

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This episode is a joint release with journalist Elyse Hauser who publishes a deep sea related newsletter at Notes from the Deep.

Elyse prepared a number of the recent headlines that are worth noting in DSM news and was kind enough to come on and discuss them. Elyse’s commentary and links to the articles below.

Also, check out Elyse’s Deep Sea Mining Glossary for a summary on many of the terms and actors in the DSM space

Timestamps

(00:00) - Introduction to Deep Sea Mining News Roundup

(02:26) - US Involvement in Deep Sea Mining

(07:58) - The Metals Company and DSHMRA

(11:01) - Impossible Metals and BOEM Permits

(14:57) - Trump's Executive Order on Deep Sea Mining

(24:58) - US Congressional Hearing on Deep Sea Mining

(30:56) - Life after Loke

(33:55) - Kiribati's Shift in Partnerships

(38:16) - Moratoriums

(42:59) - Science Roundup

(48:25) - Worst headline award

Theme music: Tamarack by Jesse Matas

United States Turns Toward Deep Sea Minerals

* Two companies, TMC and Impossible Metals, are applying for DSM through US regulations. Meanwhile, a new US Executive Order calls for fast-tracking US DSM permitting.

* A news issue I’m seeing often: many articles state that both TMC and Impossible Metals are applying for NOAA permits, or that NOAA can permit US DSM in both national and international waters.

* In fact, NOAA is in charge only of the US international permits.

* BOEM is in charge of permits in US waters.

* The Executive Order clearly directs the Secretary of the Interior (BOEM is part of the DOI) to expedite “reviewing and approving permits” in US waters.

* This mistake appears in the New York Times, which states that the Executive Order directs NOAA to expedite mining permits “in both international and US territorial waters.” Same mistake in the AP: “Trump’s order Thursday directed the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration to fast-track permits for companies to mine the ocean floor in both US and international waters.”

* This mistake was repeated in smaller outlets, too. It seems some journalists either didn’t read the complete Executive Order, or read it and didn’t understand it. I haven’t noticed any corrections issued yet.

* Another common mistake: articles only stating the US wants metals for electric vehicles and the energy transition.

* While that demand certainly exists, the Trump administration is focused less on energy transition stuff, more on “national security” (competing with China, etc) and military uses. Many DSM news pieces leave this entirely out.

* Another issue: claims that DSM permitting is completely against the intended purpose of US agencies.

* BOEM’s stated mission is all about resource development.

* NOAA has leaned more toward basic science, but it is part of the Department of Commerce and does have a resource focus too.

* Next, there was the US Congressional Subcommittee hearing on DSM, which had TMC and Impossible Metals present.

* The man running the hearing, Congressman Paul Gosar, kept things feeling pretty wild, with many lengthy, convoluted tangents. (See one example at timestamp 1:42:25.)

* In contrast, the DSM folks and witnesses were fairly calm and straightforward, even as they tried to make sense of Gosar’s hard-to-follow style.

* Also, everyone (Impossible Metals, TMC, even Gosar) brought a nodule!

* A forward-looking point: possible legal issues for US/TMC/Impossible Metals. GeoExpro suggested that global markets/governments could reject TMC’s metals as “illegally sourced,” if TMC bypasses the ISA.

* William Yancey Brown in an Atlantic Council blog notes that DSHMRA (NOAA) and OCSLA (BOEM) both have standards against environmental harm, which the DSM proposals might currently be unable to meet.

* Andrew Thaler at Southern Fried Science (great DSM news source) brought up the Jones Act (part of the US Merchant Marine Act), which stipulates “that ships moving goods between US ports be ‘built, owned, and operated by US citizens.’” It could be an issue for TMC, as DSHMRA will require them to bring minerals to US ports, but they’re not using US ships/crews.

* Thaler also notes that with major cuts to federal staff, the US isn’t really in a position to expedite DSM, as the Executive Order calls for. (Quote: “the Federal Government lacks the human capacity to expedite anything.”)

* Next steps for Impossible Metals, per BOEM’s announcement: the “multi-step evaluation process” will include a public input step.

* Next steps for TMC: NOAA’s permitting process will also have a public comment phase. US followers may want to contribute to one or both. We’ll share those links as they become available.

Norway DSM:

* Loke went bankrupt but didn’t get much press. Questions arise as to what will happen to their exploration licenses in the CCZ.

* Greenpeace made a bid for Loke’s CCZ licenses, in a stunt that also didn’t get much press.

* Is Loke gone or will it arise again under a new banner? Perhaps not out of the game considering that “other bidders included Loke’s founders and the UK-based offshore technology company TechnipFMC, which has invested in Loke,” according to The Financial Times.

China/Kiribati DSM:

* Kiribati is considering a DSM partnership with China, following the end of its deal with TMC. This might be similar to the recent China-Cook Islands partnership, allowing the island nation to use Chinese tech/support as it explores DSM. Could all this lead to a China/US DSM face-off in the Pacific?

* Minmetals, a Chinese DSM company, just got the green light from ISA for DSM tests in the Pacific. The plan is to trial collector vehicles, so it’ll be interesting to see what the designs are (I’m guessing a crawler similar to TMC’s, but not sure). Tests are likely happening later this year.

Portugal and New Caledonia moratoriums:

* No DSM in Portuguese waters until 2050. A really good place for a moratorium, as there are really unique deep sea ecosystems, and minerals, around the Azores.

* New Caledonia, a French Pacific territory, instituted a 50-year moratorium (until 2075) on exploring/mining minerals in its EEZ.

Study 44 years after test mining:

* A study by the UK’s National Oceanography Centre and Natural History Museum and others, 44 years after a mining test, showed some biological recovery. The impacts/vehicle tracks were still clear, and the abundance/diversity of animals was still lower than before test, but some animals were recolonizing.

* Interesting that many headlines focused on impacts and not recovery.

* This study (and really, a lot things about DSM) feels kind of like a Rorschach test. Many people look at it and see what they want to see. What the study actually says is pretty neutral.

Seafloor imaging study:

* Study finds that 99.999 percent of the deep seabed hasn’t been visually imaged by humans.

* The study authors, and some press, note that this leaves knowledge gaps that could be issues for DSM. However, DSM interest is also responsible for some of the imaging done to date.

And the very worst headline:

* From Sustainability Times: “‘Deep Sea Mining Madness’: The Next Unstoppable Gold Rush Boom to Devastate Our Ocean’s Hidden Treasures and Unleash Unimaginable Wealth” – the article really wasn’t bad, but this headline sounds completely unhinged. Is AI to blame??

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Michael Clarke, Environmental Manager at The Metals Company, brings over 30 years of conservation biology experience to impact assessment of potential mining in the CCZ. Mike explains the details of how TMC goes about conducting one of the largest-ever marine environmental baseline programs, the challenges of gathering and interpreting deep-sea data, and the critical trade-offs between land-based and ocean resource extraction.

From sediment plumes to carbon concerns, Mike breaks down what the data shows—and what it doesn’t—when it comes to the potential environmental impact of deep-sea mining. If you’re trying to understand the nuances of deep-sea mining’s environmental footprint, and how these decisions balance against terrestrial mining pressures, this episode is a must-listen.

Shortly after this was recorded The Metals Company made the first ever submission for a commercial recovery permit in international waters under U.S. law. Details can be found on their website: https://investors.metals.co/news-releases/news-release-details/world-first-tmc-usa-submits-application-commercial-recovery-deep.

Topics Covered:

* Michael’s global conservation background and path to DSM

* TMC’s $250M environmental baseline study

* Noise, light, sedimentation, and carbon impacts: findings and misconceptions

* Technical challenges of offshore environmental science

* The trade-offs between deep-sea and Indonesian rainforest nickel mining

* How science feeds into decision-making for sustainability

* Why polarized narratives around deep-sea mining often miss the real questions

Follow Mike on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-clarke-6575501b/

Resources Mentioned:

* International Seabed Authority Publications https://www.isa.org.jm/publications/

* Polymetallic Nodule Research Alliance https://noduleresearch.com/

* TMC’s Research web page https://metals.co/research/

* SMARTEX study https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-025-08921-3

⏱️ Timestamps

02:08 — Early career: conservation work, invasive species research, global fieldwork08:23 — Transition to industrial EIAs and mining projects09:41 — Joining The Metals Company and focus on deep-sea mining12:29 — Trade-offs and decision-making in environmental assessments17:07 — How deep-sea environmental studies are designed and conducted20:07 — Research logistics: campaigns, challenges, and COVID adaptations22:36 — Partnering with universities and ensuring independent data publication27:22 — Key technical challenges in deep-sea sampling and monitoring34:48 — Findings on noise impacts from mining operations39:32 — Managing zones of impact and minimizing environmental spread42:34 — Sediment and midwater plume behavior and impact modeling58:06 — Understanding cumulative impacts and the role of regulation1:04:15 — Other impacts: carbon release, lights, and habitat loss1:06:56 — Protecting biodiversity: mining strategy and protected areas1:10:40 — Funding environmental research and trust in scientific integrity1:14:45 — Long-term monitoring plans and Pacific Islander involvement1:17:50 — Reflections on environmental consulting and early design influence1:20:38 — Media misrepresentation and public misunderstanding of research1:24:09 — Trade-offs: deep-sea mining versus rainforest destruction1:29:03 — Closing thoughts, resources, and where to learn more

Theme music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

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In this episode of The Elements of Deep Sea Mining, Professor Steinar Løve Ellefmo shares a foundational look at deep-sea minerals, how they form, and why we know so little—and yet so much—about what's under the ocean floor.

Steinar was one of the first researchers in Norway to seriously model the country’s deep-sea mineral potential. He walks us through what mineral deposits exist beneath the seafloor, how they're different from land-based resources, and how challenging it is to collect reliable data about them. We also unpack Norway’s recent political decisions—what’s actually been opened, and why terminology like exploration and exploitation has caused so much confusion.

The second half of the episode dives deep into trust, dialogue, and the challenges of making decisions across conflicting value systems. What counts as enough data? Who gets to decide? And what might it take to talk across the expert/activist divide?

“You will communicate your values to me so that I can understand your values, you will understand mine, and we will achieve some common understanding… That takes time. Many dinners, not just one.”

If you're trying to make sense of what’s at stake in the deep-sea mining debate—and how to move it forward—this episode offers a rich, grounded place to start.

🔗 Resources & Links

* Steinar Ellefmo at NTNU: https://www.ntnu.no/ansatte/steinar.ellefmo

* TripleDeep Project: https://www.ntnu.edu/sustainability/tripledeep

* Deep Sea Mining Gemini Center: https://www.sintef.no/om-sintef/gemini-samarbeidet/#EtablerteGeminisenter:

* https://www.sintef.no/om-sintef/gemini-samarbeidet/#EtablerteGeminisenter

* 2014 Report on Norwegian Deep Sea Mineral Potential: https://gemini.no/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Abstract_and_assessments_of__SMS_on_Norwegian_EEZ_16-12-2013.pdf

🎧 Timestamps03:45 – Estimating what we haven’t found yet07:24 – The 2014 estimate: from “almost nothing” to “a lot”12:15 – The four types of deep-sea mineral deposits14:50 – How and where seafloor massive sulfides form19:38 – Nodules, crusts, and rare earth-rich muds24:00 – Why economic mineral deposits are rare—and where they form27:00 – Why deposits only form in the deep sea (>800m)29:00 – Deep-sea vs land-based deposits: mineralogy and grade34:00 – What it takes to “know” a deposit: drilling and core samples37:10 – Geophysics and geostatistics: estimating the unknown47:00 – Did Norway really "open" for deep sea mining?48:45 – Exploration vs. exploitation: semantic traps and trust52:15 – Why we need more data before deciding55:09 – Carrots, licenses, and what motivates private investment57:30 – Timelines: How long before deep-sea mining could happen?1:01:00 – Misunderstanding, dialogue, and earning each other’s trust1:07:00 – Trade-offs, value conflicts, and the challenge of weighing them1:10:00 – Interdisciplinarity in action: the Deep Sea Mining Pilot and TripleDeep1:13:00 – Steinar’s closing reflections: we need minerals, but we need to think holistically1:15:00 – Where to learn more and contact Steinar

🎵 Theme music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

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In this conversation, Dr. Helen Rosenbaum—Campaign Coordinator of the Deep Sea Mining Campaign—shares her perspective on why no amount of deep sea mining is acceptable. Drawing from over a decade of science-based advocacy and community development experience in the Pacific, she explains how the industry evolved, the story of the failed Solwara 1 project, and why advocacy must go beyond simply presenting scientific facts.

Helen discusses the environmental risks of deep sea mining, the gaps in regulation, and the pressure campaign her organization has run to push back against the commercial and geopolitical momentum behind seabed extraction.

🔗 Resources & Links:

* Helen on LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/in/helen-rosenbaum-3b78a417/

* Deep Sea Mining Campaign: https://www.dsm-campaign.org

* Scientific Review Report: Predicting the Impacts of Mining Deep Sea Polymetallic Nodules in the Pacific Ocean

* 🎥 Short Film: Blue Peril – Documentary on seabed mining in the Pacific

⏱️ Timestamps

01:16 – Helen’s background and path to advocacy04:26 – Encountering Solwara 1: the PNG connection07:25 – Founding the Deep Sea Mining Campaign08:19 – Strategy pillars: science, solidarity, finance11:12 – Why advocacy matters: beyond research papers13:58 – Truth, power, and narrative framing15:30 – Strategic research and filling gaps16:59 – The evolution of the deep sea mining conversation20:14 – What happened to the Solwara 1 project?25:09 – Geopolitics and the land grab in the CCZ32:17 – What is the right amount of deep sea mining?34:44 – Scientific review commissioned by the campaign38:18 – Ban vs moratorium: rationale and position44:53 – Corporate pressure on global governance45:34 – The U.S. position and ISA alternatives

🎵 Theme music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

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I sit down with Lyle Trytten—nicknamed the “Nickel Nerd”—a chemical engineer and metallurgical consultant specializing in critical minerals and sustainability. With decades of experience from mining operations to refining and supply chains, Lyle breaks down the complex realities behind the recent surge of tariffs and trade tensions between the U.S. and Canada—and their potential consequences for critical mineral supply chains.

Lyle explains why tariffs meant to encourage domestic processing might backfire, raising costs and making U.S. manufacturing less competitive globally. He also details just how reliant the United States is on Canadian imports, especially for nickel and cobalt—critical minerals essential for the energy transition.

Plus, we discuss Canada's response, how trade tensions are influencing market sentiment, and what policymakers and industry need to understand to navigate the intricate balance of economic nationalism, geopolitical tensions, and global supply chain realities.

Follow Lyle: LinkedIn | Bluesky (search: "Nickel Nerd")

Episode Segments & Timestamps

00:00 – Intro & Context01:04 – Building mineral processing capacity isn’t simple01:53 – Deep-sea mining and supply chain geopolitics07:04 – Can tariffs bring processing back home?10:23 – Case study: Mountain Pass rare earth mine13:44 – Expertise shortfall in Western supply chains15:04 – Why even proven tech isn’t plug-and-play17:17 – U.S. mineral dependency on Canada21:29 – Canadian backlash to U.S. trade policy25:04 – Decision-making in the face of trade-offs30:24 – The limits of international regulation33:12 – What makes a good mining regulator?37:44 – Legacy sites and sustainability regulation40:05 – Lyle’s recommended resources & thinkers42:24 – Wrap-up & final reflections

Theme music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

Additional notes / corrections

Largest potash producers are Canada, Belarus, Russia.

Kazakhstan is the dominant producer of Uranium

Sustainable mining standards

ICMM - International Council on Mining and Metals (https://www.icmm.com)

TSM - Towards sustainable Mining (https://mining.ca/towards-sustainable-mining/) ‘

* Note that Norway, Finland, Spain, Australia, Brazil, Argentina, Botswana, and the Philippines have all agreed to adopt both standards

📚 Lyle’s list of resources:

* Terry (Terence) McNulty’s influential papers on plant startups and processing failures (searchable as “McNulty Curves”): Link to Terry McNulty's work

* Bent Flyvbjerg (megaproject analysis): LinkedIn

* book with and Dan Gardner book: How Big Things Get Done

* On the Rocks podcast (Emily King): Nickel 101 with Lyle Trytten

* Michael Liebreich (global energy transition issues): Cleaning Up podcast | https://www.liebreich.com/

* Michael Barnard (global energy transition issues): writings for Clean Technica | LinkedIn

* Energy vs Climate podcast: energyvsclimate.com

* Jesse Jenkins (US energy transition and policy): featured on Shift Key podcast: Spotify or Apple or other platforms

Two that didn’t get a shoutout but are also endorsed:

* Markham Hislop Energi Media (sometimes controversial and blunt content on Canada’s energy transition): Website and YouTube, podcast on Spotify or Apple or others

* Jigar Shah (US energy transition and policy): Open Circuit podcast on Spotify, Apple or other platforms

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In this conversation, Oliver Gunasekara discusses the innovative system developed by Impossible Metals aimed at addressing the environmental challenges associated with deep sea nodule mining.

Oliver emphasizes the importance of modern technology in reducing the ecological impact of mining operations while ensuring the extraction of critical minerals necessary for the energy transition. The discussion also covers the regulatory landscape, the controversies surrounding deep sea mining, and the need for transparency and trust in the industry.

Check out their 3D Animation of the system (90 seconds video):

🔗 Resources & Links:

* Impossible Metals: https://www.impossiblemetals.com

* FAQ : https://impossiblemetals.com/frequently-asked-questions/faqs-environmental-and-social-responsibility-for-deep-sea-mining/

* · Follow LinkedIn page for updates: https://www.linkedin.com/company/impossible-metals/

* Oliver Gunasekara on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gunasekara/

* · Blog: https://impossiblemetals.com/blog/why-will-deep-sea-mining-be-less-expensive-than-traditional-land-based-mining/

* · Blog: How the Environmental Impact Assessment is a Keystone of Decision-Making in Deep-Sea Mining

* · Impossible Metals new Podcast: Beyond Oil: The rise of critical minerals

* · Register for Webinar: Deep Dive into the Updated Techno Economic Model on Friday, March 21, 8:00 am PDT (11 am EDT)

Timestamps

00:00 – Introduction: Rethinking Deep Sea Mining01:20 – Oliver’s Background and Path to Deep Sea Mining03:09 – Why Deep Sea Mining? A Climate-Driven Pivot05:43 – Environmental Impact Starts with Technology07:28 – Designing from First Principles10:38 – The Core Architecture of Impossible Metals14:16 – The Buoyancy Engine: A New Kind of Mobility18:16 – Smart Launch and Recovery Explained20:34 – Operating in Rough Seas: More Days, Better Economics23:14 – Designing for Reduced Environmental Harm31:05 – Business Model: Partner or Operator?33:22 – Development Timeline and Readiness Level36:40 – Speed, Scale, and Collection Economics41:27 – Why the Cost Advantage is So Large46:34 – Processing Nodules: Can Existing Infrastructure Adapt?47:14 – Public Perception and Pushback50:31 – Moratorium vs Ban: Clarifying the Debate53:49 – Trade-Offs and Trust in Environmental Decision-Making57:30 – The Role of Trust and Transparency1:01:46 – Why the Spotlight on Deep Sea Mining Now?1:07:11 – Recycling, Substitution, and Demand Realities1:11:31 – Ethical Access, Global Equity, and the Climate Crisis1:13:06 – Competitors and the Long Game1:14:32 – Final Thoughts and Where to Learn More

Theme music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

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I speak with Simon Jowitt about the nuances of the mining industry. We discuss the importance of mining in modern society, the dynamics of resources and reserves, and the environmental and social considerations that impact mining operations.

The conversation also delves into the future of deep sea mining, the role of critical minerals in the economy, and the details and possibilities of the mining industry for meeting growing demand while ensuring sustainable practices.

Simon Jowitt is Director, Nevada Bureau of Mines and Geology | Nevada State Geologist | Arthur Brant Chair in Exploration Geology | Director, Ralph J. Roberts Center for Research in Economic Geology, University of Nevada Reno.

Follow him at https://www.linkedin.com/in/thejow/

Here is the link to Simon’s paper with Gavin Mudd and John Thompson: Future availability of non-renewable metal resources and the influence of environmental, social, and governance conflicts on metal production

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Economic Geology

06:32 Simon Jowitt's Journey in Geology

13:39 The Importance of Mining and Resource Management

19:47 Understanding Resources and Reserves

25:26 Environmental and Social Challenges in Mining

32:53 Optimism in the Face of Challenges

33:58 Historical Context of Resource Reporting

36:00 The Impact of Mining Scandals

37:47 Trends in Resource Availability

40:45 Deep Sea Mining vs. Terrestrial Mining

45:51 Concerns Over Deep Sea Mining

53:34 The Future of Mining in the US

57:25 Understanding Critical Minerals

01:08:34 New Chapter

Keywords

deep sea mining, economic geology, resources, reserves, environmental impact, critical minerals, mining industry, energy transition, ESG, mining economics

Theme music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

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Dorothy Dankel joins Eric to discuss her recent paper with Min Hyung Kim on how society should navigate the epistemic authority of science and how we need to be ‘ready to be wrong’ and be more comfortable with the fact of uncertainty. This conversation delves into the complexities of deep sea mining, the intersection of journalism and scientific research, and the philosophical underpinnings of science. The discussion highlights the importance of collaboration in scientific endeavors, the challenges posed by uncertainty in research, and the implications of post-normal science in understanding environmental issues. The conversation also emphasizes the need for more deep sea research and the potential risks and opportunities associated with deep sea mining.

Dorothy is Senior Research Scientist at SINTEF Ocean and adjunct assoc. professor at the Dept. of Biological Sciences, University of Bergen in Norway. Her expertise is in Responsible Research and Innovation (RRI) and transdisciplinarity in Marine Science. She is Chair of the Nordic Marine Think Tank and has been a fellow at the University of Massachusetts, Dartmouth, School of Marine Science and Technology (SMAST) and the International Institute of Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA).

Follow Dorothy on LinkedIn

Time stamps

00:00 Intro

00:27 Dorothy's Journey from Journalism to Marine Research

06:05 The Intersection of Journalism and Research

10:15 Exploring the New Paper: Are We Ready to Be Wrong?

16:04 The Mackerel Case: A Study in Post-Normal Science

27:28 Stakeholder Engagement in Science

32:54 Navigating Uncertainty and Complexity

49:06 Intellectual Humility in Scientific Discourse

56:10 Deep Sea Mining: Risks and Opportunities

Theme music Tamarack by Jesse Matas

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tradingoff.substack.com/subscribe