The Elephant in the Room

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Against the mounting backdrop of rising global temperatures, record-breaking extreme weather, and the UK's wettest winter on record in 2024, governments and major corporations are increasingly retreating from climate commitments. The EU reported concerning rise in greenhouse gas emissions in 2024, the UK has postponed key net zero targets, Germany has scaled back renewable investments, (let’s not talk about the US) and fossil fuel giants such as Shell, BP, and TotalEnergies have revised or deferred climate pledges and clean energy projects, citing economic pressures and regulatory uncertainty. As we witness the global momentum on climate action wane — particularly in the West, where initiatives have been de-prioritised and progress has slowed — the urgency for innovation and collaboration has never been greater.

In the latest episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast, I explore the evolving landscape of climate justice with Ashok Sinha, a prominent climate and social justice activist and current CEO of Ashden - a climate solutions charity. Ashok co-founded the UK Make Poverty History campaign; was a key figure in the Jubilee Debt Campaign; a Director at Stop Climate Chaos (now the Climate Coalition) – playing a pivotal role in securing UK’s Climate Change Act 2008; he was also the CEO of the London Cycling Campaign.

Ashok brings critical insights from his extensive experience at the forefront of landmark campaigns and policy change, offering a pragmatic perspective on the challenges and opportunities ahead for climate action worldwide. We also spoke about

👉🏾 The urgent need for collective action, and the importance of partnerships and coalitions in driving impact

👉🏾 The role of the private sector in accelerating and deepening change and the need for regulatory frameworks that encourage investment and innovation

👉🏾 The significance of storytelling in climate advocacy and how personal narratives can galvanise support for sustainable practices and policies

👉🏾 Climate misinformation/disinformation

👉🏾 AI as a risk or an enabler for the sector; Climate fatigue; Skills shortage in the sector

We also spoke about Just Transition - advocating for equitable opportunities for marginalised communities affected by climate policies and changes. Ashok ended the conversation with an unwavering belief in humanity’s capacity to overcome adversity and foster positive change through collective effort and resilience.

#Collaboration #Inspiration #ClimateAction #Sustainability #SocialJustice #ClimateInnovation #JustTransition #ClimateLeadership #ClimateSolutions #Ashden

#ClimateJustice #ZeroCarbon

Episode Transcript:

Sudha Singh: Good morning, Ashok. Thank you for being a guest on the Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Ashok Sinha: My pleasure entirely Sudha. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Sudha Singh: Let's start with a quick introduction. Who is Ashok Sinha? How would you describe yourself as a climate activist, evangelist or campaigner?

You do have a great track record for leading some great campaigns including Make Poverty History, Climate Coalition, London Cycling Campaign. Wow.

Ashok Sinha: Well, that's kind of you to say.

I have done a lot of different things, so I, find it quite hard to categorize myself and it's not something I normally try to do actually. I'm not sure how sensible or useful it is.

It all started with me because I loved science and I studied physics and did a Ph.D. in, energy systems modelling and then climate change research and then went into policy and advocacy. So it's a range of activities but focused around energy, climate and broad, more broadly sustainability.

I'll use that term it's a highly interpretable term but at the same time in, in my own personal life, I've always been very concerned about what contribution I can make to you could call it social justice for want of a better word. It started when I was in sixth form and I, I, I volunteered in our local hospital. I just wanted to make a contribution and so I've always volunteered, served on board like Amnesty UK and, and so on. Currently on the board of Friends of the Earth Charitable Trust.

When I get up in the morning, I just want to do something useful, I want to make a contribution and so, chairing the London Sustainable Development Commission as well, broadening out the whole issue around, environmental sustainability connected with, improving people's well-being and increasing the level of equity and happiness and quality of life for people. So I guess, what would I say? I guess science led worker for advocate for sustainability.

Sudha Singh: We tried to put everything into one word. It's really difficult considering your vast experience and like you said, I think stressing on the science based is very, very.

Ashok Sinha

Critical in today's, that's really important to me.

Ashok Sinha: It comes to the social justice side of the, of the, the work that we all do. Evidence, data.

Sudha Singh: So, moving from there, tell me about your current role in Ashden and what its priorities are.

Ashok Sinha: Well, it's a, it's a very great privilege to, to lead Ashden. Ashden was founded 25 years ago this year by a woman called Sarah Butler Sloss and she's one of the group of philanthropists that come together within an umbrella organisation called the Sainsbury's Family Charitable Trust. So there's a variety of organizations there, most of them are philanthropic. Ashden itself started as a grant giver but then it split into two organizations. The grant making was retained in an organization called Aurora Trust. And we, we have to raise our own money to go out and do work in the world.

But it started as an awards ceremony, an annual awards program. And at that point 25 years ago it was based on shining a spotlight and it still is. The awards shining a spotlight on unseen innovators who are tackling the climate emergency. Then it was innovators in the global south, the global majority working on clean cooking and solar in particular.

But over the 25 years the awards and Ashden itself have broadened out to look at clean energy and renewables, nature-based solutions and the ways in which they can be promoted. It could be financial mechanisms; it could be ways of organizing for profit and not for profit. We look at those sorts of organizations and we give them awards and we give them support.

Yes, but we also have programmatic work now and the biggest program is our schools program called ‘Let's Go Zero’, which is across the whole of the UK but in England in particular. We have advisors across the England working directly with schools to help them decarbonize by 2030, and other programs in the UK working with community energy organizations, supporting local and community groups who are finding their way, towards creating new nature-based solutions to help adapt their local communities to the level of climate change that is coming through the system.

Sub Saharan Africa, a big program on clean energy access, a new program that we have working to help indigenous peoples and local community groups raise livelihoods as a means of protecting tropical forests. So it's a range of activity that has been spawned from the initial annual award. But the theme essentially is reducing carbon, adapting to the climate change.

It's already locked in but doing it in a way that delivers for communities, for local people, for local areas especially taking an area-based approach to put it all together. And the final point, I would say is we know that we're not going to change the world by ourselves. We're not going to try. We wouldn't have that level of hubris. So it's incredibly important. Ultimately, we're storytellers fundamentally to tell those stories to people who have the hands on the levers of power, whether it's finance, whether it's policy, whether it's regulation, politicians to say, look, this stuff works.

Ashok Sinha: You can liberate this innovation, you can bring the different components of systemic change together and you can scale and accelerate those solutions. You know, there's great people doing stuff, great stuff out there, but to hit our targets, you've got to support them, and this is how you need to support them.

Ashok Sinha: And we work very collaboratively with others. So lots of organizations who are good at political engagement, good at community engagement.

And so we don't, we don't, we don't try to do everything, but our contribution is, is the great stories.

Sudha Singh: And are there any campaigns that you're particularly proud of?

I tell you what, there's a couple of things that I am really proud of. So going back to 2005, I was, I was appointed as the director sort of at the head of what was then called Stop Climate Chaos, which is now called the Climate Coalition. And at that point the coalition was just five organizations.

Ashok Sinha: Major green groups and People on Planet. And they said, right, go on, build a, build a coalition, broad based coalition. That's going to be popular in, you know, try and drive popular support for, for political action in climate change. And it's a big ask. But because of work I'd done previously, I had a lot of contacts across a variety of sectors. Anyway, so I pulled a team together and we all went out into the world and within a very short space of time, within about, about a year, we were, we had our first event and in that, that was in Westminster Central Hall. And in that event, you had not just the green groups, we called it carbon speed dating.

And I'll explain Why in a second you had the green groups, Friends of the Earth, Green the conservation groups, RSPB, WWF, Oxfam, Christian Aid, xxxxx, Mothers Union, Women's Institute, right. We built that coalition and they were sitting there in that room and we were inviting politicians to come to these tables and do carbon speed dating, to talk to groups of activists, integrated cross sectoral groups of activists at each table to engage with what our ask was, which at that point was, you know, action to keep global warming under 2 degrees C. And the first person through the room was the opposition leader, David Cameron, who would soon be the minister not long after that. And that made me very proud. I sat back and thought, you know what? We, we have, we've done this, we've pulled together people from a huge variety of sectors to work together. We call it climate justice now.

And the real clincher for me was a few months later I was standing at a rally, I was opening and closing a rally in Trafalgar Square. And in front of me were 20,000 people from all over the country. Their starting point may have been anti-poverty campaigners; it could have been conservation. But there they were in Trafalgar Square saying we want action and climate change. People talking across those agendas, that was a great, that was a great feeling.

Sudha Singh: Yeah, that sounds like an amazing campaign.

Sudha Singh: What a success. Right? Not just a one off. Something is, it's still thriving. So that's, that's amazing.

Ashok Sinha: Do we have time? The other one for me is after spending so much time working on national and international questions and frankly, finding it really hard work.

Where progress is so slow. I thought, I want to spend a bit of time working on something, an issue where I can see the change when I get up in the morning and step outside the front door. I've cycled since I was a kid and I had been previously on the board of the London Cycling Campaign and they needed a CEO, so. And they chose me. This really is meaningful to me because at that point. We didn't really have cycle tracks in London, not like the kind of cycle tracks we have now. You had some blue paints on the road, you know, stick on the cycle, on the blue paint, you'll be safe. And I drew all the expertise.

Everything I've learned from previous campaigns to. To say to the cycling movement London, we've got to be popular. We've got to be singular in what we ask for. We've got to make it something that anybody, whether they see themselves as a campaigner or not or a cyclist or not, can get behind anyway.

We created a very populist campaign called Love London Go Dutch around the 2012 mayor election. And we managed to get 10,000 people out onto the street cycling around London.

And we did various other things and we secured a commitment from all the mayoral candidates to a slate of asks. Boris Johnson was elected as mayor and he not only agreed to all of those asks, but he implemented them.

We said we need three big local area schemes to show how the Dutch approach works. They put £100 million against this for three showcase schemes called Mini Hollands, named after our campaign in London, and various other things. And when you see that change directly happening, we asked for this. Now look at London, right? Look at them. Look at the number of people cycling.

Look at the cycle tracks that we have. Things have changed that feel that is so rewarding. It's nowhere near good enough yet, but I see that, you know, where they exist, the safe cycling facilities and people using them. Happily, I Think. Yeah, that was a change.

Sudha Singh: Amazing. And all these things, they are very beneficial for the communities. these are not vanity campaigns. At the end of it, there is infrastructure that changes and helps communities and people to get around in cheap, safer, sustainable ways.

Ashok Sinha: You just see one, one person with a kid on the front of their bike, on the back of the bike, and they're safe and they're enjoying it.

Ashok Sinha: Now, I do it because I'm an environmentalist. Right. And I believe in sustainable cities. But this family, cycling safely is nothing better.

Sudha Singh: Absolutely, absolutely. How important, Ashok, are partnerships and collaborations? You mentioned collaborations for success.

And what is the role of the private sector in accelerating and deepening this change? Also, is there a way to incentivize them to engage with and invest in innovations for local communities? Because all of it cannot be government.

You need money from somewhere.

Ashok Sinha: It's a massive question. So on the point about partnerships, vital. So I was talking earlier about coalition campaigning. Well, that's a partnership.

And within that there were partnerships of experts and campaigners from across the coalition who sat together and we worked through the challenges in front of us together we worked through the, the approaches that we would adopt to, to rise to those challenges. And so that's collaboration.

As I was saying earlier, we can make a contribution through our storytelling to the. So the change we want to see in the world but can't do it ourselves. We're not experts, nor, nor should we try to be across all, all areas.

And when you're talking about working, you mentioned communities.

Sudha Singh: Yeah.

Ashok Sinha: But there's no ethical justification for parachuting in and saying, hey, this is what needs to happen here. Right.

You have to work in partnership with people who have legitimacy to speak for those communities and act for those communities.

Sudha Singh: Yeah.

Ashok Sinha: As I say, ethic, ethical considerations aside, it won't work at really. So partnerships are absolutely critical to any of the progress, achieving, any of the progress we want to achieve. You mentioned the private sector. There is no way on earth that the, the clean energy transition in the UK to, you know, make an entirely clean energy-based power system, transportation, heating and, and communities that are protected from flooding or extreme heat. Yeah, there's weight that's going to be paid for by governments just putting its hand in its pocket through and using tax money. No way.

So even at that very basic level of finance, the private sector has a role to play.

The insurance companies, the pension funds who are able to take a long-term view, I hope and some of them are. Yeah, indeed take a long-term view and have sense look for sensible rates of return over a long term view. We have to have partnerships across the private sector to deliver on those objectives. Even if we were just talking about finance and it goes to. And it's more than just finance. There's the technical expertise, there's the innovation. Innovations about smart demand management, integration of systems, solar EV charging and so on.

The private sector is absolutely indispensable.

And in Sub Saharan Africa the kind of organizations we support and work with in the clean energy access sector in sub–Saharan Africa they're mostly private sector organizations.

They're innovators, who are coming up with ways to get solar onto roofs in some of the most far flung and impoverished parts of Sub-Saharan Africa. and not just supply electrons but agricultural processing, cold food, cold storage and zero carbon transportation, electric transportation.

These private sector actors who are going out into those places and thinking about how you make it work technically, financially.

Ultimately, it'll be private sector money leveraged by the international, the multilateral development banks, the African Development bank and local currency institutions which is going to supply the finance that is required. Yes, there needs to be north, south flows, but it's only going to

Show Notes:

As a small business owner what does it mean to run a sustainability brand? Is it true that sustainability brands rooted in demonstrable solutions are generally more successful than those that use vague or superficial eco-friendly messaging? And how useful are authenticity and a genuine commitment to addressing environmental and social problems to building consumer trust? What is their contribution to financial sustainability, long-term loyalty and profitability?

Ruchi Chawla, Founder of Cottsbury a GOTS (Global Organic Textile Standard) certified sustainable fashion brand was my guest on the 141st episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast. In the episode we attempted to answer some of the questions above while Ruchi shared her inspiring journey towards establishing a sustainable fashion brand rooted in organic cotton. We also spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

-      Her journey from working in the fashion industry to taking a more conscious entrepreneurial path driven by the desire to bring meaningful change in the industry

-      The fashion industry’s overreliance on harmful chemicals and environmental negligence that is responsible for significant pollution and resource depletion

-      How Cottsbury distinguishes itself from conventional fashion brands through ethical sourcing, transparency, getting certified, including 100% traceable production and a zero-waste policy.

-      How consumer behaviour is driven by levels of market maturity (UK/India) for sustainable products/brands. This in turn is driven by consumer awareness, economic factors and cultural contexts (amongst others)

o  Consumer resistance and price sensitivity

-      Ruchi emphasizes the importance of mentorship and support networks, attributing her perseverance and success to the guidance she has received throughout her entrepreneurial journey

The episode culminates in a thoughtful reflection on the future of sustainable fashion and the collective responsibility of consumers and entrepreneurs to advocate for more ethical practices. Ruchi emphasizes the need for ongoing education and engagement to shift perceptions about sustainable products, dispelling the notion that such choices are inherently elitist or inaccessible.

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good afternoon, Ruchi. Wonderful to have you as a guest on the Elephant in The Room podcast today.

Ruchi: Good Afternoon, Sudha. My pleasure to be here and talk to you.

Sudha: Brilliant. So just give us a quick introduction before we launch into the questions.

Ruchi: I'm Ruchi. I'm from India. I have studied and worked in India and also in Europe, in Amsterdam and Belgium.

I've been in the fashion industry since my post-graduation and in various functions in the fashion industry with various brands and companies. I've travelled all around the world for work and for leisure and that brings me to my current passion project, which is Cottsbury which I'm running now, for last two years plus

Sudha: Brilliant. So what inspired you to get on this journey into organic and sustainable fashion and launch your brand Cottsbury. Can you share the story behind discovering Pure Certified Cotton and why it became the foundation for Cottsbury?

Ruchi: So I was in the fashion industry. Wanted to do something of my own, questioning everything with the bigger companies, bigger brands, and my bosses always why, how, why we are doing this. So all this led to me be very aware and observant of surroundings around me.

And as I travelled in my sourcing roles to different countries, I realized that what a mess the fashion industry is in, what are we creating? And this entrepreneur spirit just kindled with the thing that I have to do something different. Not just launch another fashion brand or another clothing brand, something different in which I'm actually doing good to the world also, and to myself.

So that's how I started Cottsbury.

Sudha: And what's the story behind discovering Pure Certified Cotton

Ruchi: It is a foundation and it's how it started.

So when I used to work around different fabrics, I would realize that we are all loaded and surrounded only by chemicals. Even if you say I'm a very aware person, I'm very conscious. I mean, the world is such, you are consuming chemicals from your food to everything you're touching and using. And when my child was born, I was like, I am not making her wear polyester you know, onesies and blankets. Not at all. It has to be pure, pure, pure, and that's how my search as a consumer began and I found organic cotton baby wear, very limited availability even in Europe and some in India.

That's how I started hunting for organic cotton. When I was struggling to find it, I felt horrible that how will the average consumer ever find it?

Some of them are not even looking for it. And those were looking, find it very limited availability. I started then looking for manufacturers, this was while I was working with the big corporates, and this question was always at the back of my mind that there are people who are doing the good job. And in that inquisitiveness I found few farms and factories who are actually making pure organic cotton without chemicals `and fertilizers and pesticides. They're growing the cotton, the factories are buying it and making products out of it. And that's when I said I have to do something about this and baby wear or adult wear, whatever, I have to start that.

Sudha: Okay. That was the genesis.

Your brand Cottsbury is based out of the UK. You sell in the UK market.

 Did you encounter any challenges when you introduced your brand in the UK market, and how do you compare the UK customers to those in India? Why are you not selling in India as yet?

Ruchi: See the reason I launched in the UK market was, I have lived in Europe, UK, India. I was not very confident of launching it in the Indian market, firstly because like I said, the consumer here is not as aware or as ready to pay for this, or is not asking as many questions as have been asked and answered in the western world, which is the US market or the UK Europe market. Because that's where I worked and lived so I understand that. It's not that Indian consumer is not aware at all and there are no people in India who'd buy my product.

I have loads of queries as of now as well from India market. But India is huge, I'm a bootstrapped entrepreneur. So to launch in India, it requires much, much more capital and teams and resources. So I thought, let me start with European market, and I want to become a global brand.

I don't want this for any country specifically, because what I'm trying to tell through my brand is that, let's live a chemical free life. And it is not possible that one country is chemical free and the other country is not. We are breathing the same air. We are doing this for our planet. The effects of environment are on all countries all together. So the idea was to start in the UK and become a global brand. Not immediately launch here, I will start with Uk, Europe, US, and India, something like that.

Sudha: Based on the volume, the awareness the insight and the ability and the desire to be able to have an organic and sustainable product. So how does Cottsbury differ from larger less sustainable companies in your industry? And are there brands that you admire.

Ruchi: Yes, there are brands that I admire definitely who've done such amazing job in sustainability, recycling. And overall, they are leaders, I mean, very clearly the brand called Patagonia, I admire them, the founders, the people who work there.

So, I would say we are sustainable, and by the word of it, I mean, we are not just making claims here we are a hundred percent sustainable, traceable, zero waste, no plastics. All the definitions we tick for sustainability, it’s  not that it was a thought after project that we added in our brand. Oh, let's become sustainable. I'm a successful brand, let me become sustainable now. We are not that. we are a sustainable brand to start with. Most of the brands, even today, what they do is they have a small line in their collection, which is organic cotton line, rest is not sustainable, not organic, not traceable, nothing.

So they have a small line. So it's a project for them. It's like an afterthought. So let's do something sustainable. For us, it was not that, we are sustainable by birth. And that's the DNA, we only go by that and that's what we've been saying to our customers online always, that we aren't making false claims.

We are traceable, I know where this t-shirt is made, which you just bought, how much cotton you have used and how it's not harmed the environment. So I go by that.

Sudha: Do you have a process in place to ensure that your supply chain remains sustainable and transparent. Especially considering that you work across geographies and I mean, your suppliers must be sitting in different places.

Ruchi: Oh, yes, definitely. So that's how we go for worldwide certifications. We are GOTS certified and we are Fair Trade certified. And these are big organisations who have certified the whole process from seed to final finish, to the product, reaching in customers hands.

So everything is traceable. We pay for the certification. We abide by all the rules they laid. On books, we can prove that whatever we are saying is a hundred percent correct and has been done and that's why we have the certification of no toxic chemicals, sustainable farming, ethical labour throughout the supply chain.

Sudha: And where are your suppliers based?

Ruchi: So they're all in India as of now. It's a completely ethical, traceable supply chain and our factories are based in North India, and West India.

We buy from these limited factories, we don't go around buying from a hundred factories, four products here, four here, because we are strict with our rules, with our certifications. It's few suppliers who can meet our requirements, so we go with them only.

Sudha: And what about your customer base? What drives them to buy products that may be more expensive? How do you educate them about your sustainability efforts and encourage them to make these choices?

Ruchi: The price line of Cottsbury we are not expensive, we have kept fair pricing. I was not in here to just make money.

Of course I'm running a business. I have to pay people, I have to pay for the product and all the services I buy. But we are not price expensive. We are not luxury, We call ourselves luxurious by the feeling the product gives you. But we are fairly priced products, and our customer buys us for the ethical credentials. That's been said in most of our reviews as well.

For the ethical credentials, for the quality, for the positive social proof we give that this is where I got this from, this is the service I'm giving you. This is the quality I'm giving you. And I'm not overpriced here, I mean, you can compare our products with other so-called sustainable brands. We are not asking the same dollar as they are.

We are more authentic. authenticity is our first key and people see that.

Sudha: Do you as Cottsbury go about educating your customer base about what you are doing because not everybody is aware and not everybody may be conscious of the choices that they make.

Ruchi: I totally agree. I have a lot of work to do in that area. But from day one, we are not preachy, We are educating in our own silent way.

Like for example, we are only available online when a customer receives our product, we've got many comments, many reviews about them, they were shocked to see there was just no plastic in the packaging. Any online order you receive, you are prepared for lots of plastics coming, even your tape is plastic, everything. And we give products in a waste cotton bag, which is in a paper cardboard. We have no plastic, so we've reused the cotton in the factory and here while shipping, we are not using any poly bags, plastics. We are using paper cardboard bags, which are recycled. Other things, for example, like the buttons we use on our duvet covers, they are not plastic buttons, they're coconut shell buttons. Our bedding is soft and silky, not by a wash given to them because it's pure organic cotton. We do give it a wash, but it's not a chemical wash we give to make it soft.

So people do acknowledge all that in their reviews. That the quality, the packaging, the softness, everything is talking about your brand ethos. It's really in your DNA and we've heard that back from our customers. We get lovely emails and reviews from people who are seeing this kind of a thing for the first time.

Others who've seen with other brands talk about up prices that you are not priced...... I bought a similar thing at like one and a half or double the price from this brand and your quality is even better. So we like to hear that and we think that we are on the right way. We have a, long way to grow big, but I think the start is good.

Sudha: Amazing. So there's a wide spread perception and many cases that is the reality also that sustainable products are more expensive or inaccessible or not meant for everyone.

Ruchi: It is the perception. Very true. But if you actually compare our individual items, yes, of course there are options available.

But then read the labels. If they say we are sustainable, the label will say, 5% organic cotton, and will be loaded with plastics, or it will not have any certification. So how do you trust? I mean, you know a supply chain is, how many people involved, how many organisations involved at the back, how can they all be all sustainable and true in their claim. Certification throughout the chain just gives us that proof that yes, what we are saying is a fact. We are not just claiming it.

Sudha: So what have been some of the biggest challenges along your journey, and how important are mentors and support networks would you say for bootstrap small entrepreneurs?

Ruchi: Keeping our products mid to premium range has been a big challenge.

Because we do have to incur the same costs as everybody. And then it means that you know your pocket is empty many a times because you are living by your ethos by which you started. That I will not overcharge or everybody defines it differently what is overcharged for me. And that has been a very big challenge to keep up prices in control.

And online customer is very price sensitive and they look for offers and sales. So we do offer that, but that is a killer for us. So this has been a challenge. And another challenge of course has been in keeping the full supply chain always on guard that we are what we are. We every day are living by it. So my travels from the UK to India such frequent travels is killing. But I have to do that because I have to be at both the places.  So it's just, keeping the sustainability and transparency promise, the pricing and value promise in our complete product range and satisfying our customer.

 The whole story is of challenges and lots of challenges, yes. But as long as you're enjoying it, yeah, I'm there in it.

Sudha: And how important are mentors and support networks?

Ruchi: Most important. They've brought me back every time. There are times when I've like given up completely partially, that this cannot be done. Why am I into this? I've questioned myself honestly couple of times, but there are people my mentors who've really stood by me and reminded me why I started this from day one. So asking me to maintain my journal and read it on such occasions, why I started this and what is my end objective, and where am I today. I'm staying here because of them. Completely because of my mentors and because of my family completely supporting me. My brother in the UK and my family here in India.

I mean, without their support, this wouldn't have been possible at all. My daughter, my husband, my parents. My daughter is my biggest mentor. She's 16 now and she is really the mirror in front of me. She shows me the mirror very often.

Mama, why you are doing this? Do you realize that

Sudha: That's nice. What advice would you give to aspiring entrepreneurs who want to build an authentic and sustainable brand in today's competitive landscape?

Ruchi: Come and join me. I need more entrepreneur minded people around me, so come and join me, that'll be wonderful because it's still very rare. To find people with that mindset who are ready to plunge in with all their effort and their sacrifices. So I would say to them that it's still the beginning, this is where the future is, only think of sustainability as your principle, as your key feature.

Sudha: Yeah. And possibly keep a journal so that you can remember why you got on the journey.

Ruchi: Oh, yes. Oh yes. It's so important to remember why you started this, what were the words that made you start this?

Sudha: We've spoken about the challenges, et cetera. What are some of your proudest moments or achievements in this sustainability journey?

Ruchi: So it's both ends of my spectrum. When I receive positive customer reviews, that's like the best...

Show Notes: On the 140th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast my guest was Sangeeta Waldron an industry veteran with over 3 decades of experience. Sangeeta's story is shaped by both personal and professional transitions, including navigating a recession and shifting her aspirations from advertising to government communications. Her bold decision to leave the security of a civil service role for a not-for-profit organisation working with the developing South marks a pivotal moment in her career, reflecting her commitment to meaningful work aligned with her heritage and values.

In the episode our conversation delves into how these early experiences shaped Sangeeta’s perspective on identity, inclusion and sustainability communications 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

-      Her resilience in overcoming challenges as a British Indian woman in a predominantly white industry

-      The current state of inclusivity within the public relations highlighting the persistent underrepresentation of diverse voices

-      'What Will Your Legacy Be?' Sangeeta’s latest book where she explores climate change and the role of businesses in fostering sustainable practices

-      The importance of representation in storytelling and the necessity for brands to engage with broader demographics to effectively communicate in today's global society

-      Our collective responsibility towards creating a more equitable and compassionate world, urging listeners to contemplate their own legacy and contributions to societal progress

The discussion links her individual journey to the broader context of responsible communications, emphasising how personal identity and lived experience can drive impactful change in sustainability narratives and foster greater inclusion in the workplace.

 Head to the podcast to listen to the episode (link in comments) 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good Morning Sangeeta. Wonderful to have you as a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Sangeeta: Thank you for inviting me. I'm really excited about our conversation this morning.

Sudha: So let's get started with a quick introduction

Sangeeta: So it's a quick one. I mean, I've been over 30 years in this industry. In a strange way, I was born here, but I completed my degree in India, my college and university. So when I left India, I came as a postgraduate thinking I'm just going to, like most postgraduates or graduates, think they're just gonna be snapped up for a job.

I wasn't.

And the country at that time, the UK was going through a recession. And so it was very hard to find work. And I really wanted to be a copywriter in advertising when I was at university. That was my thing. That's what I really wanted to do. So I was trying to desperately get into advertising when I came back to the UK, but the recession had really affected. Well, we know that media and communications is always the first industry to suffer from recessions and knockbacks. So no one really wanted me. And I didn't have any office skills either.

So I sat the civil service entrance exam. And I got through. So I spent the first five years of my career writing speeches for a previous prime minister and ministers, but there is just so much creativity you can do with a minister and prime minister speech. And I thought this is really not what I want to do.

And I decided to resign and at that time, everyone was like, Are you crazy? It's a job for life. You've got a great pension. All those things, that Indian families are always very concerned about. And I said, no, this is not what I want to do and I resigned and I went to go and work for a very small, not for profit organisation working with the developing South, which kind of fitted all my background knowledge, my growing up and my experiences of living in India.

And I was there and that was really, I would say, while I had those first five years, in government, I would say my career really started when I went to work for this small not for profit. So this is becoming a very long elevator pitch. So just from there, I went to go work for some fantastic organisations.

I was the first global director of comms and marketing for the Economist Group, working at that time for the CEO, which was a huge privilege. She was the only woman in the square mile at that time. I went to work for the first mayor of London, Ken Livingston. So lots of firsts. And then in 2009, just before I set up my own PR agency, Serendipity PR and Media, I was working at a breast cancer charity.

And when I started there, it was just, a team of myself and two others, the time I left, we were an award-winning team of 10 and I was director of comms. And then 2009, I set up my own agency

And during that course of that time, we've also had the advent of social media. And so I've got more strings to my bow. And as you've read my second book very kindly, I'm a published author. So, that's me in a nutshell.

Sudha: That's such an amazing journey. So varied and the depth of experience and like you said, civil services. Do you regret it? Do you ever think that, oh, it might've been nice to still be working there?

Sangeeta: No.

Sudha: Short answer.

Sangeeta: So it's a good question. It's an interesting question. And I was speaking to a friend of mine over Christmas and we were talking about life.

When you get to a certain age, you look back on life and you think about, do you have any regrets? And no, I've got no regrets. Everything I've done has taken me to where I need to be and it's taken me to where I am today. So no, I'm pleased I left.

Sudha: I don't think everybody is able to do this with the conviction that you are able to speak about it.

Coming back to being a British Indian, what has your journey been like in the industry? How easy or difficult was it to assimilate? You have had so many firsts to your credit. On the face of it, it looks like it was all very smooth sailing and, very easy for you to progress, share with us the actual story.

Sangeeta: The question has made me think a lot and I have to acknowledge the people that gave me the opportunities. So when I applied for the job with the small not for profit after leaving the civil service, they gave me my opportunity.

At that time, it wasn't always easy. I still think it's not easy. Sometimes you're the only woman in the room. Sometimes you're the only British Indian woman in the room. And that, I'm talking about 30 years ago. And it's still like that now. So not a lot has changed, but I have to give a lot of credit to people who saw me, who saw my potential, who gave me the breaks, the opportunities.

And then I think a lot, like a lot of British Indians who are maybe first, second generation who've grown up in this country. My mother always used to tell me when I was little, when she used to get me ready for school here, she always used to say, you've always got to be better. You know, you've got to work harder because you're Indian, you've just got to work harder. And she always used to tell me, you're a girl, so you've got to work three times as hard and always have financial independence. So those were things that were always drilled into me and my mother was a working woman.

And so I would say it was also breaking a lot of stereotypes, how people see you, perceive you. I didn't fit into any boxes. So when I was working in some places, people naturally thought I was living at home with my parents. And I was living this... I don't know, whatever their stereotype was of a young British Indian woman.

And I remember going into work one day and I was a little bit late, and I said, oh, I had to ring my landlord because something wasn't working. And my boss said to me, landlord? He said, where are your parents? And I said, my parents? I said, my mom’s in India. He had to get his head round this whole story he had in his head on how he thought my life was.

It's breaking lots of stereotypes, and I think we're still breaking those stereotypes. And I think one thing I just want to say, I think people are discovering, and I think this is the joy and the positives of social media. People are also discovering that Indian women can be very funny, that we have a sense of humour.

Like the next person that's, all these stereotypes are all portrayed by the media or by film.

Sudha: Yeah, absolutely agree with you. But I also agree with what your mother drilled into you as a young child that you have to work harder. You have to be financially independent. I think that's some great advice. Actually, all women should be, everyone should be financially independent as far as possible. And of course when people are not able to put you into a box, it's very difficult for them to really decide on how they should behave with you.

It's easier to just slot people into different identities and stereotypes. From there we're moving on to this very important thing about identity, as somebody who's lived across two countries how important is your identity to you and how would you define it?

Sangeeta: That's another good question. I mean, my father was from India.

Sudha: Yeah.

Sangeeta: And when we went to India, it was our first time in India. And as a family, we only spoke English. So we didn't speak any of the Indian languages, no Hindi. My father was from the Punjab, no Punjabi. So when we went to India, I was about just 14 and a half.And so all our communication was through my dad and he was getting fed up because we couldn't communicate. So he just said he's not doing it anymore, which was like sink or swim. And I was too old to learn Hindi or Punjabi. So I did French.

Sudha: Yeah.

Sangeeta: And all my Hindi is the Hindi I've learned from TV, from films, because in India you have, well, servants is not a nice word, but you have home help.

Sudha: Yeah.

Sangeeta: So the home help that we had growing up, I learned from them, but I can't read or write. When we went to India my father wanted, I have a younger brother, wanted us to learn about our Indian roots. And in India, I wasn't accepted. I wasn't Indian enough.

So, I hated my nine years in India. And India was a very different place at that time, I was bullied, I was ostracized for the way I spoke Hindi, for all those stereotypes that Indians had of what an Indian young woman should be. And so after nine years, I said to my mom, look, I've done everything that's been expected of me and I'm now leaving.

And she didn't try and stop me. She understood, and in fact, when we went to India for the first time, when we arrived for the whole month, I refused to unpack my suitcase and my mum thought, Oh my God, if she doesn't unpack it today, then I'll have to bring her back. I'll bring her back because she's just not settling.

And that day, my mother thought that was the day I decided to unpack my suitcase. then when I came to the UK. I had this other story that everyone thought I was Indian, and I was just trying to find myself, I was in my 20s trying to find out who I am.

Yeah, so you're breaking those stereotypes here. And it was only recently somebody said to me, somebody I admire in the British Indian community. He rang me and we were just chit chatting and he said to me, you know, you're really respected in the Indian community. And that was like a, I don't know, it was like a big moment for me because I thought, wow, all this time I've always felt like I've been on the outskirts of everything.

And now suddenly people think, no, she's not a bad role model and she has a voice for the community. So my heritage is important, but I think it's who I am that defines me more than anything and I think that goes for everyone.

Sudha: Yeah. It must have been terribly difficult for you at 14 and a half to shift to a new country, when all you knew was, this way of living It must have been a huge culture shock. And of course, there is so much of resistance at that age. So, I have empathy for you. And of course when we talk about racism or stereotyping, it's not just that it happens here.

It happens everywhere. So it's about being conscious about how to accept people for who they are.

Sangeeta: One hundred percent. You're absolutely right.

And in India, sometimes I used to just stand there and not even open my mouth, but people know you're different. Just by the way you stand, you know, in this country, as a child, you are empowered to have a voice. In India, it's a different culture, it's a different setting. So yes, I was targeted a lot, never accepted. And then also not reading and writing Hindi was also a disadvantage. And my parents didn't set any boundaries. My mother didn't know India. She's Indian but wasn't from India.

And my father didn't sort of explain, this is what you do and this is what you don't do.

And I always, I was 15 and my parents put me in this co ed school. And what I didn't realize in India at that time was when the teacher said make groups. I would go and make groups at the boys and groups there is only boys together, girls together. At 15 you're discovering the other sex and, I was falling in love.

And I got into so much trouble at school. But no one explained to me that the culture is so different. My parents didn't sit me down. All my father said to me, the only advice he gave to me was don't smile at every boy

That's all he said to me. Don't smile at every boy because they all think they're Romeo. And that was the advice. And I had to navigate all of that on my own.

Sudha: That's a really tough thing for a young person to do. I'm sorry about that. But I will also just like to say that I grew up in India and different parts of India are very, very different.

So Northern India is definitely one of the places where all of this is so stark and so everyday kind of, it's not unusual to, have gone through that experience, but in other parts, I'd say in maybe some parts of Eastern India, if you were in Bengal or you were in Western India or in Southern India, your experiences would have probably been different, but you don't know, I mean, for a 14 and a half year old kid, 15 year old kid to be put in a situation like that, it's wrong and it's difficult. I mean, this is all hindsight.

I guess your parents didn't realize and I think our generation of parents didn't think too much about these things.

Sangeeta: They didn't think at all. I don't think they thought at all. But India is very different today, and I love going to India today. I have a different relationship now with the country.

Sudha: Yeah.

Sangeeta: And I always say when I meet incredible women like yourself. I always say, if I had met you when I was growing up in my twenties, I would have stayed. I would have felt there were other people like me, but I never met those women. And also in India at that time, there were very few careers you could have. You either were a teacher or a teacher.

Sudha: Well, again, this is what I'm saying is, depends on where you were and where you grew up. And I think you also grew up in a hill station or a smaller town, which can have its own challenges, not to justify any of the stuff that you had to go through.

Moving on to our industry in the UK as a senior practitioner, do you think the industry is inclusive? I just gave up my role as the chair of the PRCA equity and inclusion advisory council in Feb last year, I'd been there for three years, and I thought that I could better serve the industry from the outside rather than inside. What are your thoughts?

Sangeeta: I mean, I've been over 30 years in this industry and when I started out, there were very few women in senior positions and no women, I would say, no women of colour in senior positions. We've just entered 2025 and last year, the Chartered Institute of Public Relations published their census and it showed, I think it's something like 84 percent or 87 percent of people in the industry are white, 5 percent are Asian, Asian.

I don't know what that means because we're all just put together, whether that's Indian, Chinese So 5 percent Asian, 3 percent black. I think it's something like 4 percent of people are mixed heritage. That is still not enough for an industry. I don't believe it's representative of everyone. And that is a problem for brands.

That's a problem for communications because we're living in a global society.

Brands need to be able to talk to everyone. And if you've only got one demographic setting the campaign, setting the messaging, defining what a campaign is. You're not inclusive enough. And we've seen those kinds of mistakes being made by big brands, including luxury brands.

Sudha: I think that it persists because I started at the PRCA in my role in 2021.  And, I felt like moving the agenda it's like, trying to move a mountain especially when you look at the bigger agencies, I quit the industry in 2018. Because I struggled to really find my place, and after that I struggled to find anywhere to get to because people could not see where I would fit or whether I had the experience or the right experience. And I think that a big factor of that was to do with my age that I was in my mid-forties and also to do with the fact...

Show Notes:

The global climate movement/industry is not very inclusive; amongst other things it struggles with gender gap. This is especially true in a country like India where the climate industry, particularly the clean energy sector, suffers from a significant gender gap, with women severely underrepresented in technical and leadership roles. While women disproportionately bear the burden of climate change impacts, social and systemic barriers limit their participation in the very sectors that could offer solutions and economic empowerment.

In India there are several government initiatives focused on women’s participation, along with several grassroots and third sector initiatives that are working to build skills and capacity. One such initiative is #Nadhi -SheforClimate a women led initiative building climate resilience through human capital development. #Nadhi is the brain child of Shalini Bharat a banker turned climate entrepreneur and social leader.

After a 17-year career in finance, including serving as the COO of Corporate Bank at Deutsche Bank India, Shalini founded the climate community platform with a vision to empower 100,000 women to become climate leaders by the year 2030.

So, what inspired this banker to leave the safety of 9-5 for climate entrepreneurship? In the course of our conversation, we spoke about....

- Her motivations for creating a platform dedicated to increasing female representation in climate leadership

- The overwhelming lack of women in decision-making roles in this critical space

- Initiatives that facilitate capacity building, fostering community, and provide career support for aspiring female climate leaders

- The importance of partnerships in advancing these objectives, highlighting how collaborations with various

organizations can amplify the impact of their mission

- Authenticity and purpose as

critical drivers for meaningful change within the climate space

#Nadhi works at the intersection of gender equity and climate adaptation by enabling women to enter and thrive in green careers building long-term individual and community economic resilience. They also support micro-entrepreneurs in climate-aligned sectors such as sustainable agriculture, clean energy, circular economy, and low-carbon services and help create community-driven knowledge network.

ShaliniBharat is also the founder of the circular economy startup The KindBusiness

#WomenInSustainability #ClimateLeadership #BreakingBarriers #BreakTheBias #GenderAndEnvironment

#RepresentationMatters

#AmplifyHerVoice 

Episode Transcript: 

Sudha: Good morning, Shalini. Wonderful to have you as a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Shalini: Thank you. My pleasure to be here and thanks for inviting me.

Sudha: Let's start with a quick introduction. Shalini, what inspired you to start a business focused on climate? What is Nadhi She for climate? And is that the right pronunciation?

Shalini: It's Nadhi. Like river.

 I'll talk about the inspiration behind Nadhi

So, Nadhi, it's been about, I think 16, 17 months since I started Nadhi, but the backstory to this is I used to be a corporate banker. And in 2021 I left my job a CXO level person, quit the job without a plan, wanted to, get into the climate space. But I started with a little bit of social leadership fellowship. But when I kind of entered the climate space, I. It was very overwhelming.

First of all, you didn't know whether it was a scientific or a science based, you know, skill or experience you need, or is it something that I can use my existing domain expertise to get in there? It was just overwhelming. And climate is a huge space, right?

So I remember how overwhelming it was for me and I think over the past four, five years I tried to build a few things on the side, but one of the common questions or topics where whenever I used to speak to anybody used to be, hey, how do I get into the space? And that prompted me to start Nadhi.

I could also say it was also for selfish reasons that I also wanted to be part of something where I can meet like-minded people, you know, exchange ideas, exchange thoughts, and also feel that you're not really out of place in any of your conversations.

I could have kept it open, but I also realized that having been part of so many networks and conferences, there's always a little bit of not being heard in the room kind of.

Shalini: And you know, usual mansplaining. All those things also happen. So I thought, why not do this only for the den? So it all started with a Google form last year, February. I just rolled it out in Bombay. I didn't really expect the response I was getting.

And that is how Nadhi's journey has also been that it was completely impromptu without too much of planning or anything.

And then it kind of became into a venture or a social business,  Nadhi's primary goal is how do we enable more and more women to come into the climate space. Now it will be interesting to also see that, or rather it was for me very interesting that I have been part of so many conversations with women. 

But it was when I read a report from OECD, it said less than 30% women. There are only 30%, less than 30% women leaders in the climate space who are decision makers and senior level leaders.

So all these things I would say kind of prompted me to kind of put a structure which was pretty much can I enable more women to the climate space?

So the focus is on three aspects which is climate fluency through capacity building and of course a whole community of like-minded women and and providing them career support by partnering with organizations. That became like the core of Nadhi. So the mission is to enable 100,000 women to become climate leaders, decision makers, change makers by 2030.

Sudha: Amazing. I think this journey to transitioning and taking that leap of faith.

It has to be a leap of faith when you leave something without a plan because we are so conditioned culturally and socially to not take risks. And this is definitely; this definitely sounds like a risk.

So this plunge into entrepreneurship, Shalini, was there an aha moment or was it a gradual. Gradual sort of, you know, awakening to the possibilities as you sort of explore and then you find that oh, you know, this is what is me or this is what I'd like to be doing.

Shalini: So to be honest, if you had asked me five years back if I would even ever think of become an entrepreneur, I would have said no. That was something I didn't really plan or even remotely thought about.

But what happened I think was, I would say it was gradual, but I think they were also that aha moment for me to kind of jump into that space.

So gradual because you know, when I, like I earlier mentioned coming into the climate space, having had a very, very, how do I say, broad experience in the corporate sector, I thought getting into climate would be also easier and it wasn't easy. So which means I was also very clear that I'm not going to start from scratch.

All the years of experience I've, I built I don't want to just go to Cash, so. And that's where I thought, why not do something on my own? Honestly, after being through the journey, I realized how hard it is.

But I think the point in time was if I don't do it now, I would regret it later. Yeah, might as well try it now and see where it takes me. 

So I think it was also a little bit of, I would say, risk taking on my part, thinking that, okay, let me try it at least.

Shalini: But that moment was for me to try, build something on my own came about because I found it extremely difficult to find anything, how do I say, suitable for my, you know, experience and what I was trying to look for. So I think that that kind of requirement need also pushed me to kind of do this. 

Sudha: Amazing. That sounds like. Yeah, that sounds like. So such an interesting journey.

So what, what does a typical day look like in the day in the life of a founder? Can you walk us through it?

Shalini: One thing I can tell you for sure, No two days are the same. So there are days which are really full of energy. You are literally peaking. There are days where you want to kind of literally dig your head in the ground and, you know, think about, why am I doing this? So there are both kind of days.

So typically I would say, you know, it's all, it's all about spending a little bit of time planning for the next set of things you want to do. So in my case, what I also realized is I don't plan too far ahead because this one, this sector is changing for me.

It's also kind of keeping three months or six months as a planning goal and start planning for that and also having conversations with lot of companies, individuals to understand what is needed and where is the gap. I think it spends a lot of time in just talking to people, individuals and companies. And then there's the doing part.

Because you're a founder, you do everything everything is all your baby.

But I'm also kind of, how do I say, kind of a grateful to have a very trusted set of people who I can always go back and brainstorm and have them as my sounding board. So for me, a day is typically more on, you know, engaging with people, companies and understanding that and then planning. 

To be honest, earlier in a corporate life, you're done with Monday to Friday. Here it is not. So I, I kind of even sometimes if I feel like I even pick up my laptop and do work on a Saturday or a Sunday.  But off late, I've also been very conscious that having that mental space for yourself is very important. So I consciously take one day off in a week where I don't think about anything. But primarily, you know, it's all about planning.

Then there's a lot of doing and then there's a lot of engaging with people.

Sudha: Yes. Yeah, yeah. And I guess as a founder you also have to be very hands on. So all the things that you have to do. Yeah, it really keeps you busy.

But then how do you draw the line? So I think that's an interesting thing that you mentioned that at least one day in a week you're not going to be working. Yeah, that's brilliant.

What have been some of the biggest challenges that you've encountered so far, Shalini? And perhaps unexpected opportunities arising from those?

Have you had challenges in accessing funding for the, you know, funding for the initiatives that you are like planning or taking up?

Shalini:  So to be honest here, unlike a product or even to a certain extent a service deck where you could say, hey, this is my product, you know, can we, can we get funding for it, A grant or, or you know, equity, whatever it is. Right. It's much easier.

When you're building a network and there the network has lot of programs, funding is a challenge.

So that's why this conversation with, you know, different partners of corporates and organizations is a probably one way to go forward where, you know, you engage them, show well that you're adding, could add value to those organizations. But yes, for an organization like ours, it's always looked at as little soft. But, but I think one thing people forget is while you may build product or service, you still need people who are conscious, who are intentional and have them by your side. And that network is also something where people are going to leverage at future points. Right.

So I don't think that, I don't think the investors or funders look at it such long term because for them it's a long term investment. So I would say that that continues to be a challenge. So I mean working on it, we'll see where we kind of land, see opportunities.

I'll tell you there are two interesting things which kind of happen.

Or rather I would say I wouldn't call it challenges turning into opportunities but it just because the, how do I say, the objective or the overall mission aligns with people and hence they want to kind of partner or give you opportunities.

So one of them being because we kind of sit at the gender inclusive climate intersection. There are organizations who want to say that, hey, I want to kind of also position my organization as, you know, very women focused. Or I want to kind of bring in more women into, say, climate entrepreneurship. So I want to kind of work with you. So these organizations who see this as a very aligned partner, those kind of opportunities definitely pop up.

But other apart from that, it's all about, you know, I'm kind of completely keeping funding off the table because it's a little of a longer kind of conversation. But typically this is how funders work.

But there are opportunities because people definitely look at us as potential partners because we sit at the conversation. 

Sudha: So the next question sort of neatly segues into this is, you know, so you're nurturing the skills and the talent of, you know, women to enter the space and to sort of engage in the opportunities. How exactly are you doing that? How are you making this space more inclusive and representative? What are some of the initiatives? Probably.

Shalini: Like I mentioned at the beginning that we have these three verticals, right? Capacity building, community and the career support. So think of this as a launchpad.

So I might be a marketing person, finance person, technology person who has absolutely no clue about anything to do with climate. But it's also become very important when we have, when you're within the organizations or when you're looking to shift to have that climate fluency.

So what we do is we run all these programs to help people build their climate currency. I can probably share a couple of examples where you're probably able to see what that means.

So I remember one of the sessions which we did, which was a very high level ESG kind of a, I would say like a cohort based thing. And here we got people who were working with high net worth, you know, individuals or officers, family officers, and they said, okay.

They came to me and said, look for me, when people ask me about ESG and how does it apply to the family, office or high net worth individual? It's very important for me to have that knowledge of how can I advise them about what does it mean for you?

Now I'm not going to become an ESG specialist myself, but this kind of an introductory information or information or knowledge helps them to build that. Yeah, right. So kind of helps them to also understand the different players, how different sectors look at ESG. 

So I'm saying that is how the fluency part of it comes. 

Sudha: Yeah, yeah.

Shalini: We also have done a Mentorship program. So which means for entrepreneurs or MVP stages, the pilot mentorship program. How do I go about finding my product market fit is my, is my problem statement clear? And I mean do I know my customer better? How do I go about raising money, funds, runs, you know, all those things. So I would say it's a combination of all these things.

When people come to us, when people join the community, they get a overall or kind of an ecosystem support which kind of address all of it. So it's more like a. You come in. Absolutely.

As a newbie or a novice, you have like-minded peers who also just generously share knowledge or make the connections for you.

And, but also you have these kinds of programs or some, you know, the, or the mentorship or the other things which we run also helps them to, you know, get plugged into different things which is of their interest. Yeah, so that's how I would summarize it of nurturing.

Sudha: What, what do you think are the specific skills that are lacking and that you know, the future change makers, female women, change makers that you're looking at, what should they focus on developing? Because like you said at the start, you know, you have worked for maybe 20 years in the banking sector and you don't want to start from scratch.

You have experiences that you can sort of, you know, re train and sort of use a different way in different situations. You know, after 20 years you don't need to go back to the drawing board, you need to get fluency.

But you have already have so many skills exist that can support you. So from your experience, what are these, you know, specific skills that women need that are really important when they're transitioning?

Because a lot of them is about, a lot of it is about transitioning.

Shalini: So I would rather in instead of skill I would say probably I would talk about two things to focus on. I mean it can be a skill building exercise or it could be just polishing it or you know, sharpening your existing...

Show Notes:

Black and Ethnic Minority representation in leadership positions in the UK PR Industry leaves much to be desired and is well below FTSE 100 @11% and FTSE 250 @9% (Parker Review 2025). However, I am an optimist and do believe that direction of travel has been set by advocates and agencies… Collective progress may be slow, but equity & inclusion is mainstream and there are more role models than ever before…

Alicia Solanki, Senior VP EMEA @Team Lewis is one such role model challenging cultural expectations and stereotypes to make space for herself in the UK industry. In this fast-paced conversation on The Elephant in the Room podcast we spoke about the dynamics of leadership and representation in the industry from the perspective of a woman of colour.

Alicia also spoke about the importance of mentorship in fostering resilience and empowerment amongst underrepresented communities.

-      Authenticity and cultural sensitivity

-      Work life balance decoded

-      Codeswitching – life saving hack or demotivating burden?

-      Evolving definitions of leadership and empathy in leadership

-      DEI alive or dead? Are clients continuing to prioritise DEI initiatives or are they backtracking on their previous commitments?

Each and every time I hear somebody speak about their lived experiences, I am blown away by how unique our experiences are to each one of us. How important it is for us to understand that Black and Ethnic Minorities or the global majority are not homogenous. That understanding context and intersectionality are key to informed equitable interventions for inclusive workplaces and thriving communities. 

Her advice to young Black and Ethnic minority professionals entering the industry - ‘make your own magic’. 

 Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good morning, Alicia. Wonderful to have you on the Elephant in the Room podcast today.

I'm delighted because I've been following you on LinkedIn for some time and it's a great pleasure to have you here today.

Alicia: Thank you, Sudha. It's a pleasure to be here today.

And yes, my friends and family always laugh about how obsessed I am with LinkedIn, so I'm glad you found me on there too.

Sudha: Brilliant. So let's start with a quick introduction.

 Alicia: So I'm Alicia Solanki. I'm SVP EMEA at Team Lewis. Team Lewis is a global marketing agency here in London, but we're also global. We're around the world in 25 offices. I've done my whole career agency side. Before that I was in the Omnicom family. So, yeah, I guess I love the buzz of agency.

I love the discipline of PR and how it's really expanded now. I have two children, Ella, who's 11, just started high school. So lots of change came going on in our house at the moment.

And then I have a little boy called Ethan, who's eight. So, yeah, married, busy life, juggling loads of plates. But I kind of like it that way. So that's a bit about me.

Sudha: Yeah. Oh, my God, it sounds really busy and with life changing stuff. 

I mean, moving from primary to secondary is like a huge change and of course, agency life. Tell me about it. I love the buzz. I was agency side, moving on. As an ethnic minority woman with an amazing career in PR, I need to ask you this. Did you choose to get into the PR industry? And how did your family respond? Because, I mean, a lot of Asians really don't get it.

Alicia: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And you're going to laugh when I tell you that I bought the ‘Dummy's Guide to PR’ before I started my career because I knew nothing about what this industry was about. But what I did know is that it ticked loads of boxes. So I love politics, I love the media, I love writing and reading and being with people.

And there were very few careers, I guess, that ticked every single one of those boxes. And then I came across PR and started looking into it and realized that it could do that. So that was where it ended up. My family had no clue what this was. My mom still thinks I'm a pa, I think. So I just kind of let anyone believe that which is fine.

 And I really remember one time when I think it was a cousin of mine, who I won't name, said to me, what are you supposed  to do with a career with a degree, sorry, in English. And I remember thinking, oh God, I've really gone against the grain here. When you know, lots of my cousins and grew up in a really big Indian family. Right. Lots of people around the house and most of them did, you know, either economics or math. So I was definitely an outlier.

And so yeah, it wasn't easy and I definitely sort of went left when everybody went right. From a studies point of view.

Sudha: Good for making your own choices. I can understand. I mean I didn't tell my kids, they didn't know what I did for the longest time and I was okay with that.

So during your career, considering that, you come from a background which is not in PR and where there's little awareness of the industry, did you have access to mentors and allies and role models? How important is it for you to see people like ourselves as role models?

Alicia: Yeah. I'll take the first part of your question first. I started this career in 2005 and there definitely weren't that many role models, particularly Asian female, in really seeing positions.

I think fast forward 20 years where we are now, there are definitely lots of brilliant examples and each one of us hopefully trying to lift each other up and become more visible and use our platforms and our voices. But there wasn't back then.

But what there were, I would say is that loads of allies in other places that either saw a talent that you had, that maybe you didn't realize that you had advocated for you and gave you opportunities. And I started my career at Ketchum and there were some amazing leaders, colleagues there that, you know, played an instrumental part in my career.

And they know who they are. So I won't name them all because I don't want to miss anyone. But yeah, the ability to see something, I guess that you didn't see in yourself. So allies are important everywhere in your life. Sometimes they're obvious allies, sometimes they look like you have the same background as you, but that's not always the case.

And I think being open minded and looking around and networking like crazy and finding those people that can lift you up and can occasionally like throw you the microphone or give you the spotlight. I think for me those are the people that have been real jewels in the story. As I look back over 20 years. So yeah, they weren't there back then. I'm so pleased to say that there are definitely way more now.

Sudha: Agree. I totally agree with you. And you know, we just spoke about agency life and the buzz of agency life. So is there a thing such as work life balance and what are the strategies for staying grounded and avoiding burnout considering you have a life beyond work?

Alicia: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's one of the hardest things I think about being in this career. It is always on. There is a nature, a degree to which you have to be present with your team, with your clients and that's challenging.

Yeah, I mean I have a really long commute to get to work. It can take up to two hours each way, children to sort out in the morning, to feed in the afternoons.

But the way that I like to look at it I guess is that there isn't such a thing as work life balance because you just have one life and you just have to work out how do you turn the volume up and down every single day? So sometimes the volume at work is a bit louder, other days it'll be louder at home.

I like to keep it broadly in equilibrium because I find that that makes me happiest, it makes my family happiest, my colleagues happiest. It's not always easy, but I think you have to be quite disciplined about the way you look at work life balance.

You know, you can't always have your cake and eat it. There is sacrifice everywhere you look and often personal sacrifice is - definitely things that I'm not able to do in the week.

Do a yoga class or there just isn't the time. But I'd hope that in time when the children are older and things settle that you'll get to do some of those things.

But yeah, I think it's just being open minded about that, respecting your boundaries, having that self-respect as well and not being afraid to say no every now and then that I'm not going to stay late or you know, go for that extra drink or. Because actually getting home early today is really important to me. So yeah, that's how I try and look at it.

Sudha: Yeah, I think identifying what is important for you both personally and professionally. Like you said, no two days are same and you need to prioritize and probably plan things down to the last minute.

Alicia: Definitely. And people love.. I have a holiday spreadsheet for the summer holidays and to the point where I just send it to my friends and say just self-serve yourself a date when you want to do a play day or you want to see me? Because unless I do that, I feel totally like eight weeks. I feel totally out of control.

So things like that, although they're practical, very Virgo, I'm very organized. Like things like that really help me.

And other people will have other techniques and crutches that they use, but I think without them it can feel like a free fall and there's nothing feeling like you don't have a plan. So wherever possible I try and put some like scaffolding around me, my family, to protect us and also to enable us to do the jobs that we do.

Sudha: Absolutely. And I think we are, we perform better at work if we are personally also in a good place. So I think makes sense to look out for both.

Alicia: Yeah.

Sudha: So moving on. I think this is something that a lot of black and ethnic minority employees feel. The pressure to code switch or assimilate in the workplace. And if yes, how has that experience influenced your leadership style today?

And are there facets to your identity that you wished people were aware about because it would make navigating the workplace easier?

Alicia: Yeah, that's a brilliant question. And yeah, I code switch all the time. I think you have to because you wear lots of different hats.

You know, when I'm at work and I'm in a boardroom or running the daily stand up meetings with my team. You know, they're looking for you to, to stand up, to tell them what's happening, to reassure them, give them confidence, laugh together, do all of these things. you know, But equally, you know, say if I'm out of the office with a different group or even at home, my own family and my in laws side, you know, you code switch all the time. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I think it's being aware that you're doing it and also the energy expense that it sometimes can take to code switch. Because if you do it beautifully, nobody will ever know that you're doing it. Only you will know the extent to which you're having to either mask or to amplify a kind of characteristic. But yeah, it happens. And I wrote a blog recently about  - I'm quite petite. So, you know, it's easy to be the shortest person in the room or around the table. Things I do every time I'm in a room, for example, I immediately pump my chair up around a meeting room table. I take up physical space with my laptop or my books. I talk naturally very loud, which I find gives me authority.

So there's things like that that I've learned to do very naturally now because I know that by doing that, I'm gonna perform at my best.

And, yeah, and some of that just happens autonomously, I find, as you grow through your career and get comfortable with your own kind of personality and your own delivery.

And then on your second question. In terms of facets of identity, I think, you know, being from, you know, the Indian subcontinent, I definitely grew up in a big Indian household with, with loads of, you know, family, uncles, aunties, cousins. And, you know, you were one of a big number. You did have to find your way in that.

 I do think of our generation, you know, those born in the kind of 80s who were in between the parents generation where, you know, they were really serving in laws often and trying to find their identity. We had a little bit more of that, but we don't have as much, I would. I would say, as the kind of Gen Z, which is great. You know, there's definitely some freedoms that have been found. So, you know, I've read a lot with, you know, Jaspreet Kaur.

She wrote that book, Brown Girl Like Me, and she talks a lot about that intergenerational trauma that sometimes people, certainly women like me of my age, you know, early 40s are. I have grappled with. And I do think that can play out that sort of quiet Indian girl stereotype or she's gonna be subservient. She's not gonna cause fuss. She's gonna do what she's told. Right. All of these things do exist. And I think, you know, you have to kind of counter some of that every day. And people might turn their head and go, oh, she's not at all like. I thought so. Yeah. I think there's things like that that play into our sense of who we are.

Sudha: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so interesting to hear because, you know, it's like.

I mean, it's about processing essentially your various experiences, and people have various experiences and sometimes, you know, they can be very negative.

This thing about get your whole self to work thing it never worked for me. I was never going to get my whole self to work ever. Right. So I. I don't believe in that. Yeah.

But I want to get my professional best self to work and be empathetic person. So it's about knowing where and what you want to be doing and who you want to be known as.

Alicia: Definitely. Yeah, definitely. And I think we can get really hung up on. On fighting things.

And you put all your attention on disproving or, you know, that's not like me. And. And then you kind of lose the plot line because then you're not doing or advocating for the positive things that you can do. It's sort of. You become quite defensive about all of the challenges in your way. So I can try and approach it with a more positive attitude to say, well, actually, I'd love to surprise this person in the room.

Or when you tell them that you're head of the UK market, they sort of go, oh, you know, And I still get that. I find it just tremendous when you introduce yourself. And I don't know what they expect me to say when I put my hand out to shake their hand, but when I say that I definitely have had more than my fair share of oh.

Which I love now, I use it like dynamite because I kind of go, great, I've either proven you wrong or a stereotype that you've had that just hasn't lined up for you. And I use that to kind of charge myself up. So again, it could be a negative thing that you go, why are people looking at me in this way?

I. I'm not doing something right. It's all about me doing it wrong. But flip it around and go, actually, none of this is on me. And kind of prove them wrong. So you've got to be careful.

Because I think actually for women in our position, that can be quite a heavy load and a burden to carry if you don't find a way to make it more of a dynamite and less of a kryptonite kind of analogy.

Sudha: Yeah, I love the dynamite kryptonite analogy. Love it.

But discomfort is a good place for people to be. They don't know. So that's great. So the definition of leadership has, you know, evolved dramatically in the last few years. What does it mean to you?

How have your experiences shaped it, if at all. And what is your leadership style?

Did you think when you were like, you know, 10 years ago, you were thinking, my God, I mean, it would be helpful not to have this kind of behaviour from a leader?

Alicia: Yeah, definitely. It's a question I get asked a lot, and it's an important question. I think it. It does change.

It changes depending on where you are, what the kind of macroeconomics are, what's needed of you as a leader.

And I think for me, you know, the yardstick of a good leader isn't like, and I've learned this through the hard way, isn't how much you are liked, but how much you are respected. And that's something I had to learn because I am a real people pleaser at heart.

I love being with my team in the trenches all the time doing work I probably shouldn't be doing because I just love being in the weeds. But as you grow up the ranks, I think you have to learn quickly that you have to show, yes, empathy, of course.

That kind of servant leadership model, I think is really important.

And these days, actually kind of leading by example, but also giving the teams a level of clarity, inspiration, the space to, like, do some introspection as well. And they kind of look to you for that. So. But yeah, I think you need to know how to code switch again as you.

As you are a leader and know that you have to sometimes wear masks that are not your natural...

Show Notes:  Shifting political priorities and economic pressures over the past couple of years have seen several countries scale back climate commitments contributing to the growing gap between climate pledges and real-world emissions (still rising).

What does this mean for a ‘Just Transition’ and Net Zero? While there is no silver bullet, IUCN and UNEP emphasise Nature based Solutions (NbS) can be pivotal for climate mitigation and adaptation, when pursued alongside rapid decarbonisation globally.

To discuss NbS, and climate change I recently caught up with Swapan Mehra a global leader in climate action and ecosystem conservation. In this deeply insightful conversation Swapan spoke about how NbS is a holistic approach to addressing the climate crisis, through a spectrum of actions designed to protect and restore ecosystems while simultaneously delivering co-benefits for biodiversity, communities and individuals. We also spoke about…

👉🏾 How NbS are fundamental in agrarian contexts like India, where communities are inextricably linked to their natural environments.

👉🏾 The practical implementations of NbS in India's Nationally Determined Contributions (NDCs), that highlight the ambitious targets set for increasing forest carbon stocks by 2.5 to 3 billion tons by 2030

👉🏾  The challenges to adoption by the private sector 

·      Lack of standardised financial mechanisms, regulatory hurdles, and insufficient data and knowledge about NbS performance and returns

👉🏾 NbS frameworks including IUCN; Voluntary carbon markets integrity initiative

👉🏾 Investor expectation vs reality

👉🏾 Voluntary carbon markets, carbon credits and greenwashing

We also spoke about India’s carbon trading and green credit scheme, leadership commitment, the impact on SMEs, projects he is particularly proud and being a climate optimist……

“To me, just transition means ensuring that climate action doesn't come at a cost of life, livelihoods, equity, inclusion, but rather climate action promotes life, livelihood, equity, inclusion. In the context of the global south, especially India, where our communities have such a direct relationship with nature, with our landscapes, this means putting farmers first, indigenous communities first, it means ensuring investments which are locally contextualized to the needs of the communities and ensuring that a large part of the benefit flows to them. These are communities who have not played a major role in actually causing climate change, and now yet we are dependent on them to solve the problem for us.”

 Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good afternoon, Swapan. Wonderful to catch up again after a long time

Swapan: Good afternoon, Sudha. Very good to catch up.

Sudha: Let's get started with a quick introduction. Tell us a bit about yourself and IORA Ecological Solutions.

Swapan: Sure. So, firstly, thank you for having me on your podcast Sudha. I'm Swapan Mehra, I'm the founder and CEO of IORA Ecological Solutions. IORA Ecological Solutions is a leading developer of nature-based solutions, policies, implementation plans and action on ground in India. Over the last 15 years, we worked across 200 projects in the areas of forest conservation, forest restoration, and sustainable agriculture, while also helping India and many other countries develop leading policies to not only plan action on climate change, but also execute this action through financing and technology. Our mission is to make nature count, our mission is to ensure that there is holistic conservation of nature, of biodiversity and the communities who depend on nature.

Sudha: That's very, very interesting.

So, from our previous conversations and what I've read about IORA, I understand that, like you said, nature-based solutions for climate mitigation adaptation are pivotal to the work that you do. So what counts as nature-based solutions and why are nature-based solutions crucial to tackling climate change?

Swapan: Well, that's a great question. So nature-based solutions is a broad category of actions which in summary are actions that can protect, sustainably manage, and restore modified ecosystems while providing the core benefits of biodiversity, climate mitigation, climate adaptation, human wellbeing. Some examples of nature-based solution include afforestation, reforestation forest conservation, mangrove restoration soil and sand, enhancement, et cetera.

Now, why are nature-based solutions gaining a lot of traction? I think there are multiple reasons. One is that it's mildly accepted that nature-based solutions have the capability to deliver close to 30% of all mitigation actions, which are needed to stay below the two degree levels, which are enshrined in all of the global NDCs by 2030, a third of the actions.

The second reason is that nature-based solutions, like I mentioned earlier, deliver a lot of core benefits, versus any other solution, I'm not saying that our nature-based solutions are more important or less important than technology-based solutions. But as compared to other solutions, these core benefits of nature-based solutions are immense, especially in an agrarian vulnerable country like India.

If you're able to restore lands, restore water bodies, aforest, it can help tremendously in reducing climate risk for communities, helping creating jobs, help in ensuring livelihoods are sustained. Lastly there are two kinds of climate actions that we broadly have been all working on in the last few years.

One is actions that lead to avoidance of emissions. Second, which lead to, removal of emissions, which are already out there. While renewable energy and such categories, which have gained a lot of investment in the last few years, which is critical to the global pathway of decarbonisation, we all agree that there is already a lot of emissions out there, which are already starting to warm the globe, the process has already started. This is now a well-established fact, which means that we also need to balance this out with a lot of removals.

In the removal space, nature-based solutions have a distinct advantage also of being cost effective. Industrial removals, carbon capture are still very expensive, given that nature-based solutions have the ability to remove at a fair price locked carbon for periods of 30, 40, 50 years, which is what the world needs to move towards, net zero technologies and their core benefits. This is the reason why nature solutions are gaining a lot of traction and attention now.

Sudha: Yeah, my, first interaction was at the Planet Cognisphere event and so it's interesting to see, that it prioritizes not just, removals, but it prioritizes communities, and it looks at community impact and the cost of doing this entire process, because who's going to finance, where's the money going to come from?

So I think we definitely need low-cost innovations, and this sounds like a great way, to approach and, address the challenges. So, the NBS have been, incorporated into the NDCs as a part of the country's strategies, and you have helped develop India's National REDD+ strategy.

Tell us a bit more about it.

Swapan: So, yeah, Sudha most countries now have a major component of nature-based solution in their NDCs, this includes major budgets for afforestation, for reducing deforestation, and even in some cases for reducing emissions from agriculture.

So those components are there in various NDCs. India where we've had the pleasure and the privilege to be helping the Ministry of Environment Forest, making a roadmap for the NBS part of its NDC, has a major target to increase carbon stocks in India's forest and tree cover by two and a half to 3 billion tons by 2030, which is a major target.

Now, NDC targets are also slightly related to this instrument called REDD plus. REDD plus is an instrument which is being developed by the UN, in an effort to reduce emissions from deforestation, forest degradation and also to enhance the quality of the forest, the plus stands for Sustainable Forest Management and Enhancement.

REDD Plus has been under development for many years, the World Tree Carbon markets have adopted REDD plus in various forms, and there have been many projects, many initiatives. We had a chance to develop India's National REDD Plus policy and guidance document back in the day. Now there are also some challenges when it comes to REDD plus.

REDD plus is a very critical instrument. I especially feel that it needs to be promoted more and more because there is a distinct advantage of conserving existing good forest over creating new forest. I'm not saying creating new forest is not a good strategy, it is, but the true system service is the biodiversity, and very importantly, the culture and heritage enshrined in existing forests.

In order to regain that, the process for a new forest can span century.

I'm not remembering the number exactly, but from what I recall, I think less than 10%, 15% of the worlds intact forest is left now. Most of it is gone. These forests also play a very major role in regulating very major climatic and and weather cycles around the world. Water cycles, et cetera. And which is why REDD Plus as an instrument continues to be in dialogue, in discussion, and various people try to figure out how we can, promote this further.

In the context of India one of the reasons why India takes a very strong view of NBS and its NDC and has this major goal on increasing forest tree carbon stock - is also a recognition of the fact that firstly India's land, has high productivity can grow forest, traditionally has had a lot of forest, still maintains a large amount of forest, close to 25%. It's critical for India's biodiversity, it’s critical for India's water, but very importantly, India has close to anywhere between three to four hundred million people who are still directly dependent on a forest for their livelihoods. For us, maintaining this forest, enhancing this forest is critical for our social development, for our social growth and inclusion of our communities as well.

Sudha: Absolutely. I think I was staggered when I realised the scale of the population that is dependent on forest and forest-based livelihoods.

So it's good that there is a strategy that exists at the national level. Swapan what has been your experience of adoption by the private sector and what are some of the challenges of adoption of NBS by the sector?

Swapan: We interestingly with the World Economic Forum and CII did a survey of the Indian private sector a few months ago on their appetite and challenges in adopting NBS as a strategy central to their sustainability, climate change, et cetera. So I'll summarize some of the results from that survey, but also some of my observations over the years.

One thing that I can clearly mention is that there is growing interest in the private sector to look at NBS, either as a strategy to help them offset their climate and biodiversity footprint, or to offset some value chain risk. But a wide majority of corporates, especially in India, still view NBS as something that they need to address or they can address as part of their corporate social responsibility and not core strategy. Which is a challenge and I think that this is also where our community, the community of nature profession, needs to do a lot more to get these companies to mainstream nature on their balance sheet. To value the liability of negative nature impacts, but also value positively the gains from positive nature stewardship, which in our experience, far outweigh investments because the gains from nature are so multifold.

 I also feel that even to head in that direction, while there is interest from companies, there are also certain systemic barriers, some institutional barriers that we need to take care of, amongst them, one is just the availability of tools data metrices.

There is a wide range of different standards available, but there is no standardisation. That's something that we need to work on. India actually is taking a leadership role in that space, with the government firmly taking control of sustainability, reporting standards, et cetera, but we need to do more.

There needs to be data and metrices available today if there is a company which wants to put biodiversity impact on its balance sheet, where do they get the data for? We don't have site specific information easily available. Then there is also a challenge of, I would say talent in this sector, more and more people need to be trained on how to account for all of this. In terms of investing in nature, in the survey that I mentioned earlier, there were some very interesting responses that finally, when you deal with investments in nature, you're dealing with land, with communities, with governments, and there needs to be more regulatory clarity changes in policies that allow the private sector to invest in nature, which at the moment is not very straightforward. Then of course, even if those things are clear, the one thing that the private sector needs to reorient their investment systems around is just the way you invest in nature, the system of investment in nature, because these investments are very long term. If you want to invest in a forest, you need to wait for 15 years for it to grow.

There is some uncertainty. Uncertainty about and risks of nature, which at the moment our corporate systems are not tuned to value, you know?

There is mortality, there is pest, there is a climate event. So I think that's where we are right now. There is to summarize increasing interest, but still on the margins, looked at as some companies have taken a leadership role and are investing heavily, but many look at this as sort of an additional corporate social responsibility, investment versus core strategy.

And that's what we need to now push nature towards.

Sudha: I think, you've made some really good points there, especially about understanding and getting it to be as a part of the strategic business decision rather than a CSR initiative and an add-on that you do to just talk about philanthropy or your piecemeal efforts.

And it has to be probably at the design stage and the C-suite have to be involved in discussions around how they adopt it and how they showcase the liability on their balance sheet or show stewardship of what they're doing. And how it, aligns with their business purpose because at the end of the day, you're not asking them to do something that doesn't align with how they're doing their business. It has to be aligned and integrated with how they're doing their business for this to be sustainable, and to be successful in the long-term.

Right?

Swapan: Absolutely. Absolute.

Sudha: So is there a framework or best practice? You mentioned, you know, India's taken a lead on setting standards and sustainability reporting. But is there a framework or best practice for organisations that want to adopt NBS as a part of this strategy, to offset GHG emissions?

And how do you ensure then that the communities benefit from projects and programs? Like you said, when companies look at community programs, it is through the CSR lens and it is not strategic at all.

Swapan: So firstly, at a meta level, there are some, global frameworks for NBS, amongst them the one that is most widely referred to is the IUCN framework, which actually lays out quite well what are the components of NBS, how to approach NBS and how to develop NBS solutions. Then in the carbon market, there are good practices which are laid out by the carbon standards, but also bodies like the, Voluntary Carbon Market Integrity initiative in which we are involved, and the ICVCM, et cetera, which are trying to focus on good practices to ensure that there are high standards of carbon removals from nature projects in general. A good NBS strategy must integrate firstly, robust baselining assessment of local contextual needs of a specific side that you want to invest or work in. This is very critical.

This requires comprehensive thinking and planning, small things such as which species you're planting, where in combination with which is something that has to be thought through, has to be suitable and beneficial to the community there.

The projects have to ensure that there is fair benefit sharing with communities, with long-term interest, and their priorities are taken into account when taking decisions on designs of these programs. For us at Iora benefit training is not merely a checkbox that you just do an activity, get consent and move on, it's actually the foundational centrepiece of these projects. As an example, in our project in Meghalaya, where we just done the first carbon payments to communities and mind you the highest prices in India, 40 Euros. We've spent two years in engaging the communities, getting the priorities and planning the agroforestry model, and we ensure that, a very large portion, a wide majority of the carbon benefits goes to farmers. In fact, it's IORA's policy that piece is centred to design of the project.

Sudha: As a climate finance expert, what has been your experience of what attracts investors to these projects? Because investors are critical, right?

Swapan: So investors are looking for scalable, verifiable high-quality nature-based projects, which can have both sound, environmental and financial returns. That's what investors are looking for and in defence of the investors, the project pipeline also is thin. Like projects which combine all the elements of proper planning, proper baselining, the right science parameters, the right financial parameters are also difficult to come by, but that's what investors are looking for. One of the mismatches I think that's happening a lot is the investors expectation of the time horizon of return versus where actual projects can return. The really good quality nature projects require a much longer time...

Shownotes:

5 years post COVID I continue to ask the question – Do organisations need to have a business purpose? And what does having a business purpose mean in practice?

For the 136th episode of The 🐘 in the Room podcast I spoke with Shikhar Aggarwal, the Joint Managing Director of BLS International one of the world’s largest global service delivery company (visa, passport, consular, and citizen services).

Themes covered in the episode include 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

-      What it means to be a purpose driven business providing citizen services and facilitating mobility

-      Insights on global cultural integration for a listed Indian entity (the only one in the industry) with 60,000 employees and a footprint across 70 countries

-      Lessons from the pandemic: agility, empathy and building trust

-      Evolving challenges in the industry including geo-political crises, cybersecurity and inclusivity in service delivery

-      Commitment to Sustainability & ESG reporting: The aspiration to set global benchmarks in citizen services

-      Role models in the industry and beyond #TCS #L&T #Wipro #Azim Premji

To learn more head to the podcast, link in comments 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

#BLSInternational #CitizenServices #GlobalMobility #ShikharAgarwal #Leadership #Sustainability #ESG #Innovation #PurposeDrivenBusiness

 Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good afternoon, Shikhar, thank you for being a guest on The Elephant in The Room podcast today.

Shikhar: Thank you so much for inviting me.

Sudha: Brilliant. So let's start with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do..

Shikhar: My name is Shikhar Aggarwal. I'm the joint Managing Director of BLS International. I started in Delhi; I'm a chartered accountant. I worked in a couple of companies before joining BLS International in 2014. So it's been an 11-year wonderful journey. And here we are, listed company with presence in 70 plus countries today.

Sudha: Awesome. Since I'm from a comms background, and Bhavya is also I'd like to hear your elevator pitch for BLS International. What is your mission and vision for the company? It's quite a huge business.

Shikhar: At BLS International, we are a trusted global tech enabled service provider to governments worldwide, committed to simplifying access to essential citizen services. We are operating in 70 plus countries and have processed more than 360 million applications till date. Our mission is to be the world's most trusted and efficient partner for government to citizen services. Also, our mission is to be the largest Indian company in global service delivery. There have been a lot of IT companies out of India, global IT companies, but I feel that a global service delivery company out of India, we are probably the primary one and we want to be the largest one.

Our vision is to touch the lives of a billion people across the globe by delivering citizen services that are seamless, secure and powered by innovation. We aspire to be the global benchmark for inclusive technology driven service delivery that empowers individuals, supports governments, and creates lasting societal value.

Sudha: Very interesting. So in the last couple of years, purpose has become a buzz word. So how important is it for you as you move on this journey to becoming, one of the largest or a global company which is much admired. How important is it for you that BLS International should have a business purpose?

Shikhar: See when someone applies for a visa, it is to unite with a family or needs an identity service to start a new chapter in life. It is much more than just paperwork. It is deeply personal. That's the space we operate in and that's why for us, purpose isn't a trend. It is a responsibility. At BLS, we don't see ourselves just as a service provider.

We see ourselves as an enabler of mobility, connection, and dignity. Our purpose is woven into every application processed, every identity verified, and every life made easier through our technology and presence. It guides us how we innovate, how we collaborate with governments and how we stay human centered in an increasingly digital world.

Beyond enabling access, we're also building livelihoods, empowering over 100,000 individuals, not just with jobs, but with tools, training and opportunities to become successful entrepreneurs in their own right. We are proud to foster a growing ecosystem of people who don't just work with us they are like business partners, they have learned how to run a business. They're making money with us. While others may talk about purpose as a brand statement, for us, it is the reason that we show up every day.

Sudha: Very interesting and it segues into my next question about culture.  As a global business, with the footprint across, many countries, how do you go about creating one culture, getting employees or as you say, your business partners across the world to reflect your values.

Shikhar: When you are operating in a global environment, you know we are operating in 70 plus countries across borders, time zones, cultures, building one cohesive culture isn't about uniformity, it's about unity. For us, culture is the thread that connects thousands of employees around a shared purpose and core set of values, passion, customer orientation, entrepreneurship, result orientation, integrity and respect and being process driven.

We have built the cultures with intent through strong training programs, open communication and digital platforms that bridge distances. We keep everyone aligned, no matter where they are, and while we are united by values, we never lose sight of local strengths. Our teams are empowered to bring their unique perspectives while staying anchored in common framework of service excellence.

That's how we create a culture that's global in spirit but grounded in the realities of the people we serve and the people who serve with us.

Sudha: So that's about culture. And do you travel a lot to these countries to actually see what the culture, what the integration is like?

Shikhar: Definitely me my senior team, we want to be on the ground. We don't want to operate a company from our head office or our office. If you have a touch and feel of the ground, the different cultures, values of the people, then you understand where your company is really at.

Not only cultures and values, you also understand delivery, business opportunities, capabilities. So it is a must.

Sudha: That's the best way to learn.

So Shikhar it's been like five years since the pandemic and, that was such a moment in time, moment in history where, everyone was impacted global travel and tourism of course was heavily, heavily impacted. We couldn't travel, I was stuck here in the UK, couldn't go to India. What were the learnings for people in your business? Particularly around, adaptability, agility, and also to be able to continue to serve customers and clients, who were stuck in crisis.

Shikhar: I think for us, since we are a company that gives visas, definitely pandemic had hit us the hardest, but it has been a learning curve. Pandemic for us was more than a crisis, it became a real time test for our resilience, and for us it brought three powerful lessons to the forefront.

First, agility became non-negotiable, practically overnight, we reimagined how we work. Digitizing operations enabling remote support and ensuring business continuity in the face of unprecedented disruption. We also learned how to operate business at a lower cost, and we are still taking some of those learnings till today.

Secondly, we learnt empathy isn't just a value, it's a strategy, while we kept services running, we made sure that our people were protected.  We prioritized safety, flexibility, and wellbeing for our frontline staff as well as the customers we serve.  And third, the trust made all the difference. Our long-lasting partnership with governments gave us the credibility and collaboration needed to co-create solutions that balanced public safety with service continuity.

These lessons didn't just get us through crisis. They have reshaped how we operate today: faster, more human and more connected than ever. If you see our growth after COVID, if you see our profitability growth, If you see our margins growth, if you follow our financials, everything is at a different trajectory.

And there were very few employees that we actually let go of, we deferred salaries, we reduced salaries, we brought it back after COVID. Most of our offices we were maintaining.  I think five years down the line this is what has paid off. So that trust, which is where we stand as a company because of our commitments that we made sure we had adhered to during that time.

Sudha: Very good to know. So in today's world, what are some of the biggest challenges you face as an industry?

We spoke about COVID now we seem to be in a state of permanent crisis. Mobility is a huge issue, for people to travel. How you grant access or do not grant access to people, there are lots of questions around that? So what are some of the biggest challenges you face as an industry?

Shikhar: First of all, we are a global company operating in 70 countries. First geopolitical shifts, visa policies and cross border regulations can change quickly and we have to remain agile, ready to realign our operations while maintaining service continuity. And obviously, you have to keep in mind that it is an interest of governments to facilitate travel for tourists to come into their country as it is a big part of the GDP. While there might be short term setbacks in the world, but we have seen on an annual basis, we've always grown. Second is cybersecurity, data privacy. We handle very sensitive personal data. So safeguarding the information is not just technical requirement, it is also co responsibility and we continue to keep on investing in latest system protocols and training.

We follow very strict protocols. Third is striking the right balance between digitisation and inclusivity. While we embrace technology to ensure efficiency, we are equally focused on making sure that no one is left behind, especially individuals who may not have easy access to digital tools. Inclusivity remains a key design principle in everything we build. So if you see a lot of people from developing world, or older people, they need to be trained, they need to be assisted, in getting these services. These challenges keep us focused, adaptive and also committed to delivering secure and human centred services. How we manage the global challenges is how we do our business.

Sudha: Moving on to the next question. How would you define sustainability at BLS International? What does it mean in practice because it's very people focused business.

Shikhar: So at BLS international sustainability means delivering citizen services with accountability, resilience and deep respect for people, communities and the environment. It is about creating long-term value while upholding the highest standards of governance, reducing our environment footprint, protecting data privacy, and driving inclusive growth.

The commitment is also reflected on how we operate from maintaining global ISO certificates in anti-bribery, data security, occupational safety, to empowering the underserved communities, through focused CSR in education, livelihoods and women empowerment. We are also digitizing processes and optimizing energy use to build a more responsible and an efficient global service network.

Sudha: And as a listed company what are your thoughts on ESG and reporting and BRSR? With the reporting requirements that have been evolving in India, how are you aligning your business purpose and sustainability priorities with ESG reporting? If you're doing it at all? Or if you have the ambitions to do it.

Shikhar: Definitely, we work in a global environment with so many foreign governments across the world. So ESG reporting for us is no longer a box ticking exercise. It is a strategic lens. And in India, obviously BRS reflects the shift.

We see it not as an obligation, but as an opportunity to benchmark our impact surface gaps and drive real progress. At BLS International the BRSR aligns well with global ESG standards we already follow. It helps us connect the local expectations with international best practices, whether it's strong governance with board level ESG oversight, safeguarding citizens data through ISO 27001 or driving inclusive growth through gender diversity and ethical training.

Our CSR efforts focus on digital inclusion, education and skilling, directly feeding into the BRSR social lens. And with ESG risks integrated into our enterprise risk framework, we are not just reporting, we are anticipating, adapting and acting. Simply put the BRSR framework helps us stay transparent, accountable, and future ready while keeping sustainability at the heart of how we serve citizens around the world.

Sudha: Yeah, so people definitely are right at the forefront of what you're doing. When we consider ESG reporting Shikhar or sustainability best practice, are you looking at peers in the industry or across businesses? Which are some of the companies that you admire?

Shikhar: See, definitely at BLS International our approach to ESG blends both industry benchmarking and cross sector learning.

We track peers in the visa and government tools, citizen service space, especially around data privacy, inclusive access, and public trust. But we also look beyond our sector because best practices don't come with borders. We draw inspiration from companies like Infosys and TCS for their ESG leadership and digital inclusion growth. The Tata Group for the values driven stakeholder engagement and L&T for the structured ESG roadmap. Globally, we admire how Master Card and Accenture embed inclusive tech and social impact into their business models. For us, ESG isn't just about compliance, it's about evolving continuously learning from the best and creating long-term value that's both globally responsible and locally relevant.

Sudha: Any leaders that you admire specifically Shikhar, they could be within your circle of people you saw while growing up or admired or you admire now?

Shikhar: I would say Wipros’ chairman Azim Premji, I deeply admire the kind of institution he has built.

I meet a lot of world leaders at Davos, I go every year. So there are multiple world leaders, from India, from abroad that I admire. we aspire our company to benchmark with them or surpass them also. To me leadership isn't just about skill. If you talk about what does being a leader mean to me, it's about setting the standard, it means leading with trust, with innovation, and the commitment to create meaningful social value. For BLS International being industry leader means we are constantly evolving to stay ahead of the needs of citizens, governments, and communities we serve.

It's about being agile, responsible, and purpose driven in everything we do. So if you talk about what's next for BLS, we are deepening our digital transformation, expanding our partnership into new and emerging geographies, and embedding ESG more deeply into every layer of our operations. The future for us is about shaping how global mobility is delivered and more seamlessly, more securely and more inclusively.

And I feel that this is just the start.

Sudha: Oh, that's nice. It's great to have ambition and what makes you wake up every morning? What drives you and motivates you?

Shikhar: The main fact that drives us and motivates me and the company is like for India based company, a Delhi headquartered company facilitating global mobility and travel. We are in 70 plus countries, working with more than 40 client governments, and we are generating employment for Indians. We are upskilling Indians, sending them abroad, teaching them in high value jobs.  We are delivering services to people who did not have access to these services before. They had to travel miles to city centres to avail basic services, you know so I feel the sense of purpose, the sense of scale, the sense of commitment, that is what, brings us to office every day.

Sudha: That's brilliant. That's a wonderful way to end this conversation, Shikhar. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and your ambitions and where you are going to in the future.

Shikhar: Thank you so much.

Important Links:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shikhar-aggarwal/?originalSubdomain=in

Website: https://www.blsinternational.com/

https://youtu.be/RleX-g9Ypsk?si=RcJ08Eb2IAeXMd8u

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/bls-international-services-plans-rs-2000-cr-investment-jmd-shikhar-aggarwal/articleshow/101359804.cms

There is research to show that climate washing is on the uptick along with a growing trend by companies worldwide to utilise carbon credits to offset greenhouse gas emissions. The trend (carbon offsetting) is driven largely by companies making net-zero pledges. However in the absence of standardised frameworks and regulations claims of greenwashing can undermine the credibility of carbon mitigation efforts examples: overstating the impact, under reporting harm to communities or environment

To understand the ecosystem better I spoke with Shreya Garg, a seasoned climate professional and auditor to share her expertise on the dynamics of the carbon markets. Independent auditors are key to building trust in carbon markets by provide objective assessment of projects, prevent misrepresentation of data. In our wide-ranging conversation we spoke about additionality, permeance, community impact…...

👉🏾 The evolution of the Indian carbon market from niche, compliance driven model to a more dynamic and voluntary environment

👉🏾   The burgeoning international interest in Indian carbon credits and what is fuelling the demand

👉🏾 How global net-zero commitments and increased scrutiny around climate disclosures are major factors driving the evolution of voluntary carbon markets

👉🏾 The difference between compliance and voluntary carbon markets and how they can shape corporate reputation and sustainable practices

👉🏾 Why greenwashing remains a huge challenge

👉🏾 The need transparency, integrity and community engagement and technology in the evolving landscape of carbon markets.

In our conversation Shreya highlighted the necessity for equitable benefit sharing and community engagement to restore trust in climate initiatives. We also spoke about the need for more women in the climate space, emphasizing the unique perspectives they bring to community engagement and project sustainability.

To know more about carbon markets and climate washing head to the podcast 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Shreya, Thank you for being a guest on The Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Shreya: Morning Sudha. it's totally a pleasure.

Sudha: Brilliant. So let's get started with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Shreya: So I'm Shreya, I'm a climate professional for about 14 years and I've been working in the carbon markets. Right now I'm associated with different organisations, gold Standard there’s FCF, India and Isometric. And my main work is guidance around the carbon credit quality strategies and market synergies. Prior to this, I was vice president operations at Earthood where I led a team of auditors who were working on validation and verification of climate projects.

Sudha: Brilliant. How has the carbon credit market transformed over recent years and what are the main factors contributing to this change? Especially when we consider a diverse country like India. I read a recent report that the carbon credit market in India is booming.

Shreya: Definitely. I think the carbon markets have evolved to a great degree. They've evolved from a niche compliance driven market to a broader, more dynamic voluntary markets. We have seen that there are no commitments per se, that are being made by the countries, but there are global players that are making their move towards climate action. So I would say the growth has been driven mostly by net zero commitments and also there has been huge demand in the voluntary market. And not to forget the heightened scrutiny around climate disclosures that all have played a role in shaping the markets.

When we come to the state of carbon markets in India, I would say there has been a combination of factors that has influenced. We have our own carbon credit trading scheme that is now shaping the market these days. And of course all the corporates are taking their sustainability targets that is providing the demand for the carbon credits and there is international demand for Indian carbon credits also. And there has been an increased awareness amongst the Indian businesses on how to utilize carbon finance to fund their decarbonisation strategies.

Sudha: That's very interesting. So are there big differences between the voluntary and compliance markets and why are they important for businesses?

Shreya: Yes, they are I wouldn't say diametrically opposite, but compliance market as the name suggest they're government regulated. So they're more like cap-and-trade systems.

So they're mandated by the law and involve legal obligations. However, voluntary markets are kind of self-driven and it's more like self-motivation, how you go to the gym every morning. It is not a hostile or it is not a regime that somebody enforces on you, but it's your own action and your drive towards a goal that takes you forward. So, both of them are equally important because the compliance market gives you the flavour of the requirement. So they help shape influence the mindset on what's good and what's bad. And the voluntary markets, of course take the step forward into doing the right things.

I think in terms of businesses voluntary markets do offer the flexibility. We also get influenced by the reputation. We have a certain notion about a company which says it is climate focused versus a company which is not making any such statements. I think compliance market, we can say we present the regulatory risk management. Like, India has its own targets and we are focused on certain things more as compared to other nations. So I think compliance market gives an overarching framework.

Sudha: And then companies can choose to go beyond compliance and of course it will help with their brand. It helps the business mitigate future risk but also I think in terms of reputation, like you were saying, it adds a huge halo to organisations. I think a lot of them are compliance driven rather than driven by altruistic or thinking about the world and society.

How do you evaluate the quality of carbon credit projects? Seems so deeply difficult to do and how do the criteria impact the credibility of organisations? Because in today's world, like you spoke earlier, everyone says that we are climate friendly, we are signed on to net zero and we want to achieve certain targets.

And a lot of people put targets that are in 2040/50 where probably nobody is going to be there to check them on accountability.

Shreya: Or nobody would remember.

Sudha: Yeah. Or nobody will remember. So, how do the criteria impact the credibility of these organisations?

Shreya: Very valid question Sudha and I would say that quality is always multidimensional.

And when we talk about carbon credits, there's certain aspects like additionality, permanence, leakage, monitoring rigor, not to forget, the community impact, and also the alignment towards science. When I say alignment towards science it's basically the adherence to the methodology that is checked when we are doing the quality checks.

And I say this because I've worked as an auditor for most of my life. So, I would say it's credibility of a credit mostly hinges on to these criteria. And how well are they integrated in a project. A project with a weak additionality, there were couple of cases earlier, a company would have gone for solar panels, with renewable energy anyway, with or without carbon credit. So how additional is that project? So if you were going to go for that, what is the benefit or should you have rightfully received the carbon credits for those projects or not?

And these kind of are the bigger questions and they form the general impressions on what should be done, where is climate finance more suited to be used, for example, maybe community-based projects where the same amount of money can benefit a larger number of people.

So a lot of these are qualitative issues, but issues like permanence, leakage, and monitoring are quantitative, which can be seen and kind of set in black and white.

Sudha: So have you seen poor criteria impact credibility of projects. Like , you say that there is a project that is happening and there are criteria for measuring the quality and when somebody does, I'll use the G word greenwashing, then they are just, like you said there is a solar project that's already there, it's a part of the business and are you really doing something in order to contribute or is it something that's there as a part of your business?

Shreya: I think that is the unfortunate part of being an auditor is that we are bound by the standards. So we are limited by the scope of the standards which sets the requirements.

So I was just having a call yesterday where I was saying that, as auditors, when we visit the communities, we do check if they are aware of the carbon project, if they are aware of a grievance mechanism in place. However it does not fall into our purview, how much money have they received from the project? What is the frequency of money that they have received? So there's certain aspects which do not fall under the scope of a carbon audit. So I would say there you can say a poor criteria. I mean, I wouldn't say poor, it is like a canvas which keeps growing.

I think the time we are going to see more added criteria as to auditing in scopes, I hope.

Sudha: And what are the biggest challenges you see Shreya in ensuring the accuracy and integrity of carbon credits? And how can these challenges be addressed? What have you seen so far in your career?

Shreya: Based on my career I mean, there's a lot of literature out there open for public right now. So I would say overstated baseline and emission reductions is like the biggest elephant in the room. Which accompanied by poor monitoring and verification, if you are saying something and which is not backed up by data is definitely questionable.

Then, another issue that I saw with the growing, land-based projects was the issue of double counting. Where same land parcel could be part of more than one project. So, I mean, double counting goes on very different levels, but this is probably the simplest example that I can give right now.

And, also, the local community education seems to be what is impacting the credibility of carbon right now, carbon projects rather. They have very little understanding of the project and as an auditor I see that as the integrity question also, because if they don't understand the importance of doing certain things, it's very difficult for them to follow that practice.

Sudha: How do you ensure it is sustainable Right? And it continues with their buy-in and not just keeping them on the sidelines. So you are an auditor. I mean, what is the role of auditors in verifying the quality, of these carbon credits and what are the key aspects of a robust carbon auditing process?

Shreya: Definitely. So I think, I wouldn't say these carbon audits is something new that has incorporated in the system, and few people may question that auditing has always been there, so how, how does it add value then? With it's existence, the quality has been low but I think it is always driven by the requirements. So whatever the ask is that becomes part of the checklist of the auditor. So if the ask is elaborate, then the checklist will be elaborate. And audits are very important to identify if the projects are real, if they're measurable, and if they're verifiable.

So I think auditing is very important and the important aspects of auditing, I would say that the baseline assumptions like you would say that before the pre-project scenario, like what was happening before the project came into be, and how has a project modified that practice, which is going to lead to emission reductions.

And ground truthing. So the physical site visits where the ground truthing also happens.

Sudha: That's very interesting because when I came for the Planet Dialogue Cognishphere event, I just read up on I think is it Verra where they had done a lot of double counting and they were called out for lack of transparency, et cetera.

Shreya: That's true. So Verra is a registry, it's a voluntary carbon registry based out of the US which is the largest in the world. So Verra takes up about 60% of the total carbon projects share. And there have been certain malpractices which have been highlighted for the projects. Like, I wouldn't say Verra’s malpractices, but the projects that had over hyped up there, numbers in terms of impact on the community's, impact of land and they will have inflated baselines also. So if I can give you an example.

There is avoidance of deforestation projects where, a company goes and say like, okay, this forest, no intervention is going to degrade because of all these factors. And there's a rate of deforestation that is presented which becomes the basis of their emission reduction calculation.

In certain cases, it was found that those rates were taken very high. It was presented that these forests are going to degrade in the next five years, if not intervened. So they led to inflated emission reduction. So those kinds of projects came into being, I mean, like every market there are bad players, but, I think Verra can take some of that blame by letting these projects go through you know, not having enough reviews.

But times are changing now all the registries have increased their scrutiny. I would say that there is more transparency in the market, so all the project documentation are available for public view on the registries now.

Sudha: That's very, very interesting and this is something we can speak about for a long time.

But let’s proceed to the next question. So, regulation across the world is like evolving and changing so rapidly and most organisations are still on the learning curve. Do you believe there is need for standardisation and if yes, where are we on that journey? Like on ESG reporting there's so much call for standardisation because companies are having to do a GRI, you do BRSR, you are doing something else SASB, and TCFD what is the process for standardisation? Are we trying to make it easier for people or more complex?

Shreya: That's very difficult question [Laughter] and I can just give you my opinion which might be in agreement with some of the industry people and may not. But I do think that there's no one size fits all approach or solution, because when it comes to regulations given the diversity of the country, the geographies, the capabilities and priorities, they're so different.

So how can we have one thing that is the most important you know, globally. So I think, that way standardisation may not work in the global scenario, but that said, a common ground is essential for building trust and, interoperability, like you said, are we making it easier or difficult?

So in order to make it easier we should all speak in the similar language. It's not like, each registry having its own terminology and making it more confusing, it is only going complicate matters. If a project can be named project in all the registries, that would make a project developer's life much easier, and easier for the buyers to understand.

But, I could think of recent times we have frameworks like I-C-V-C-M or Carbon Principles and we have voluntary carbon market initiatives, claim codes, which are kind of setting the priorities and the common principles that should be part of every standard.

Sudha: That makes a lot of sense. Shreya, you've worked in the carbon markets right from the start of your career. Right? So can technology be used to increase transparency and traceability and efficiency of these markets?

Shreya: Yeah, I think technology has come long way into, helping projects, how they report.

And now in the last five years we've seen this increased interest in nature-based projects, which were very complicated. But with technologies like satellite monitoring and when we talk about double counting and traceability. There are blockchain for registry traceability you know, carbon credits, like how do you tell if something which has been retired does not enter the market again. So, blockchain has also come into play for easier monitoring and verification. There are digital monitoring MRB platforms right now that are available. And there's certain companies that are specializing and have AI driven anomaly detection models.

So I would give examples of these land-based projects, again nature-based projects. So there are companies which can just through satellite images can differentiate an eligible piece of land from an ineligible piece of land, which required a huge amount of manpower to assess earlier.

Sudha: Wow. that's amazing.

Shreya: Yeah, so I like to believe that the carbon market is going through the growing pains right now. And I think with technology definitely is going to help it. And there are a lot of players which are focusing on integration of technologies into providing solutions, and I think which are going to help in integrity and accountability.

Sudha: Yeah. I think technology as an enabler, in this process is a great opportunity. We spoke about the carbon registry inflated claims, double counting, reporting, and this has sort of undermined the integrity of carbon markets and reduced public trust.

 The rhetoric from the US on climate change, of course is not helping. They've rolled back so many things and other countries have seen and they're doing the same. How can we increase trust and make people see that what is being done currently is genuine climate action

Show notes:

Are there people who inspire you, make you want to be better and do better?

I have been fortunate to meet with amazing and inspirational people from all walks of life through my podcast The Elephant in the Room. Individuals who refuse to be defined by their circumstances or the challenges they encounter in life.

Akashdeep Bansal, CEO of SaralX, and my guest for the 134th episode of the podcast is one such person. Diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa at a young age, Akash's path took an unexpected turn when a conversation with his master's supervisor prompted him to consider the challenges faced by visually impaired individuals in pursuing STEM education. This pivotal moment not only reshaped his academic trajectory but also inspired the creation of SaralX, a startup focused on enhancing digital accessibility for people with disabilities.

In this episode we spoke about 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 How this led to the setting up of a collaborative network aimed at breaking barriers and fostering inclusion

👉🏾 Discovering purpose and becoming an entrepreneur advocating for inclusivity in the digital realm

👉🏾 Misconceptions that digital accessibility is solely for people with visual impairments, emphasizing that it encompasses a diverse array of disabilities, including motor impairments, cognitive challenges, auditory limitations……

👉🏾 The need to shift from a complaint-driven approach to accessibility towards one that inherently integrates inclusive practices into the foundational design of products and services.

👉🏾 Societal awareness and acceptance in facilitating a truly inclusive environment for all individuals, regardless of their abilities.

We also spoke about stigma, role models and what motivates him. Akash believes that it is not just one person who inspired his journey, it is the collective influence of those he has engaged with on his journey. His commitment to creating awareness and fostering inclusivity with SaralX is rooted in the notion that true empowerment stems from dismantling societal barriers rather than imposing limitations on those who are excluded.

Thank you @Prateek Madhav, Assistech Foundation for the introduction 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾

To learn more about Akash’s inspirational journey head to the podcast 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript

Sudha: Good morning, Akash. Wonderful to have you as a guest on The Elephant in The Room Podcast today.

Akash: Good morning, Sudha. It's my pleasure to be here.

Sudha: Brilliant. So let's get started with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do. I heard a little bit from Prateek of AssisTech Foundation. Let's hear from you.

Akash: What I can say about myself is, right now I'm doing this startup called SaralX, where we are basically helping in making the digital world inclusive for person with disabilities. Prior to this, I've done my master and PhD from IIT Delhi And I'm born and brought up in a small town which is called Gango, which comes under the district xxxx.

So that a small brief about me.

Sudha: Oh, wow. From UP straight to Bangalore. That's good.

Akash: Yeah,

Sudha: It requires a fair amount of bravery to become an entrepreneur. Did you have an aha moment and what propelled you to get into this journey?

Akash: Okay. So I can tell you like how I ended up in entrepreneurship.

There was no plan, when I was in childhood there was no plan that I will be doing any sort of entrepreneurship. If you met me 10 years back and asked me what I want to be in the future, my answer at that time should have been, I want to be in the teaching profession. I want to be a professor. So I did my BTech in electronics and communication. Then I got admission at IIT Delhi for Mtech. So when I was pursuing my master's at IIT Delhi, the same question was asked by my Master's supervisor. He asked me what do you want to be in the future?

So I told him like, I want to be the professor.

He then said, okay, that's fair enough, I can give you another problem statement. As you're doing your master's thesis, you can continue the work in the similar domain and you can pursue the PhD. I'll be happy to take you as a PhD student.

So one background is that I got diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa in 2003 when I was just 10-year-old. Due to which, I was losing my eyesight gradually. And when my Master’s supervisor asked me, tell me one thing, what will happen if during your PhD you are not able to read anything on the printed documents or anything on the computer screen?

How will you continue your research work? And at the time I was dealing with equations, which used to be three to four lines, even when you are typing on a A4 size sheet.

My Masters was related to electromagnetics EM wave, if you've heard about.

He asked me how will you manage you're dealing with such a complex equation right now. how will you continue working on your research during your PhD itself, if you lose your eyesight? And that was a trigger point for me.

I was not having any answer at that time. I said, give some time. Let me think about it. And then after a couple of days, I revisited him. I asked him sir can I do PhD with a topic that, how a blind person can do electrical engineering?

So then he said, yeah, that sounds a good topic, but I am not from this domain, so let us talk to someone who works in this domain.

So then we met another supervisor.

He immediately accepted me as a PhD student. He said, if you want to work on this problem, how equations can be read out for a person with blindness, I will be happy to take you as a PhD student. So that's how I entered the PhD.

I started networking with multiple persons with disabilities, multiple NGOs to understand what kind of challenges they're facing, what kind of practices they're adopting right now.

To pursue the different STEM content, like equations, tables. Yeah. What kind of practices are there and what kind of challenges are there? So, at the time we formed an informal group of different persons with disabilities who were doing engineering from ITTs, or even the foreign universities.

We started catching up on monthly basis. Basically we used to help out each other and I used to join that call to understand, these are the alternatives everyone is adopting. And this is the gap, which is there.

So, during the conversations which we used to have on monthly basis a discussion came up, the point was, we eight or nine people are able to help each other We somehow was able to break the barriers and able to come to the engineering domain.

But we know the ground reality. Even if you go to a lot of NGOs the blind person is always guided that you shouldn't pursue STEM education. Because that is not something which is accessible to you. You should one of the arts subjects. So then we thought, okay, let's join hands and maybe enter into some sort of an organisation where we can collectively work towards and utilize our own technical abilities and do something for the entire xxxxxxx

So that was a moment when we switched into an entrepreneurship mode, four of us we started first company, we ran it for around three years. We learned a lot of things, we did a couple of things for the community. And then during this time itself, there was a time when my eyesight reached to that level that now I can't read anything on the computer screen.

 I needed to rely on the assistive technologies. I was the one who used to manage everything online in my family. Like if my father wants anything, I was the go-to person. But in 2021 when I lost my eye sight to the level that now I can't read anything on the computer screen, I felt like I lost my freedom.

Now I need to even rely on someone else to get the things done. So that was the trigger point. And then I said, okay I need to solve this problem. Anyway during the PhD I learned about all different kind of digital accessibility, like let's solve this problem at a larger scale. And that's led to the development of this service

Sudha: Wow, that's quite a story, quite an experience for anyone. So you've said about, why you started SaralX and it is about accessibility, for people with disabilities visual impairment probably, or anything that they have.

So what is your ambition for SaralX and how did you get to the name SaralX?

Akash: Before answering your question, I just want you to help with one thing because that is something which I find a myth. That people think digital accessibility is just for visual impaired. But that is not true. Digital accessibility is for multiple disabilities. In the visual disability, you can understand blindness, low vision, colour contrast.

Now let's talk about the other spectrum. Think about a person with deafness. You're posting an audio - video content, like you're posting this podcast now. Now think about a deaf person.

Think about a person who is a XXXXXXXXXX disabled, but the problems are in the upper body parts. Like maybe hands are not there or the fingers is not there, or the movement is very limited or the hands are always shaking to which they can't use the mouse pointer.

Then comes to the Neuro divergent spectrum. So in the neuro divergent spectrum, think about the dyslexia, you may be able to recall the movie Taare Zameen Par. If you remember that movie there was a child that child, whenever that child was trying to read anything in the book, all the characters were dancing, due to which he was not able to make out. what is the text written. So same problem a person with dyslexia is going to face when they're reading something on the digital screen.

So now what kind of things can be done for them so that they can easily read whatever is coming on their mobile screen or the laptop screen? So it's not just visual impairment. It's actually a very wide spectrum which get affected due to digital and in accessibilities.

Now, if I try to answer your question why the name SaralX.  So SaralX is basically a combination of Saral and X. Saral means easy, it's Hindi word. Now X is a variable, it may be accessibility, it may be experience, so what we're saying is we are making the accessibility process easy. We are making the experiences.  So that's how we came to this name SaralX.

Sudha: And what have been some of your biggest learnings on the journey?

Because I can't imagine that it has been very easy. A couple of years in, are their things you would have done differently and what are some of the biggest learnings from this?

Akash: So, one of the learning is you have to be patient.

You have to keep patient in what you're doing. If I even tell you, like when I started SaralX, the first one year even I myself was in a fear that will the company be sustaining or not? Will I be able to pay next month or not? But then a turning point happened, due to which the company got changed.

Now we are already into the growth stage. Where we are rapidly growing the team. every month. Every week the new members are joining in the team. So that kind of growth is what like one is like you have to keep patience You have to put the hard work. If you believe in your idea, just keep patience and things will happen. Other thing which I learned about this space specifically talk about the disability space. So the point there is, try to think of a B2B business model.

That was a mistake in my first startup This is basically the second startup. We were doing one mistake that we were focusing more on a B2C model. And in India, when you are trying to focus in a B2C model, that is something which is very hard. But if you can change your business model to a B2B model, then things can change drastically. That is what I even used to share with everyone else who are working in this space, that whether you have a product for a B2C, but still try to think of a B2B one, don't directly just focus on B2C. So that is one thing which I learned during my entrepreneurship journey.

Sudha: If you want to be sustainable, I think that is something that you have to think of. So I've heard about the social definition of disability and a couple of years back I've worked in the disability space as the chair of the PRCA, Equity and Inclusion Advisory Board. but at that stage I was still using people first definition of disability and then there is this organisation in the UK that they'd posted something and I wrote to the CEO then we had a conversation post that and she spoke about the social definition of disability So I knew about it, but I didn't know how important it was for people to adopt that model.

So, for our listeners, what is it exactly, and why is it important for you? Because I have seen in some of your, articles that I've read about the social model for definition of disability.

Akash: So point comes as when you're looking at disability, there are two faces of it.

One is you're seeing the problems which are there with the person. Another way is the barriers which are there in the infrastructure. Now, if you can remove those barriers in the infrastructure, the person who is not able to do the task right now will be able to do that.

I came across a video I'll narrate this by explaining video which I saw around a year back, in which what they displayed is - there was a town in which the only persons who sit on the wheelchair were staying. There was no one who walks or ran, without the wheelchair. So all the infrastructure, which was built in that town, was as per the requirement of the person with wheel chair. Like all the ceilings were not that high. Now then what happens is, when there was a person who was not having any disability, that person came to this town and was trying to enter into the house he was not able to, because ceiling was too low for him. His head was continuously getting struck with the ceiling. In this environment, what we call is a person not disabled, that person got disabled?

That person is not able to travel in this infrastructure. But the person who's sitting on the wheelchair has no problem. They can go around, they can do everything. There is no barrier for them because the infrastructure was designed, only keeping persons was on the wheelchair in the mind not everyone else.

So the same thing is there, like if you are designing any infrastructure, if you start thinking about everyone and you come up with a universal design of everything, whether it's a product, whether it's a software, whether it's infrastructure, then even a person, if there are problems in the different body parts, they will be able to do the things independently, and they'll be able to live independently without, depending on anyone else.

So that is what my learning from the social disability model, that it is not just putting the burden on the person. But putting the burden also on the society, because that is what is making them disabled.

Sudha: It is not catering to their specific requirements, so it's excluding people.

Akashdeep, what are your thoughts on the state of accessibility in India? How can we accelerate change? I know there is a lot of conversation and policies, etcetera but a lot of things don't translate from policy into real action, we are not seeing the change happen as rapidly as it should in order to enable everyone to participate in our society,

Akash: So, the bigger problem there is in India right now, the condition is improving, but I won't say it's very good. There's significant work which need to be done. The initial step which is happening is due to the legal pressure. There are a lot of lawsuits happening against the different organisations due to which they are putting effort and trying to make their systems accessible.

But if you see, what happens is when something is happening due to the pressure or due to the legal combats, that may happen for a month but that will not survive.

As soon as someone gives a green signal, they will stop focusing on it.

But if you can make it more sort of a sustainable model for them, make a more sort of business model for them.

Why they need to focus on disability, where they need to make sure that, their infrastructure or their digital infrastructure or physical infrastructure, whatever it is, that should be accessible, then this will go up. So you have to think beyond legal. Legal will push for a moment. And it'll get done for a moment, but it'll not survive. What I generally say is, when I discuss anything about digital accessibility with anyone. I generally ask them to think about when you are making your digital infrastructure accessible, first you need to get outta that met that the person with disabilities are very less because the census data is very inappropriate. Census data says that hardly, 2.2% of the population of India is a person with disability, which is highly inaccurate. There are multiple records which says that at least 10% of the Indian population is a person with disabilities,

That changes the narrative. That 2%, the 10%, if you're not focusing on accessibility.

Then the question comes as is you improving the user experience for that or also for everyone else? So the question is, it improves the user experience for everyone. The one simple example, which I generally give to the people is many of us nowadays started using the dark...

Show notes:

Did you know that ultra processed foods (UPFs) make 57% of the average British diet and up to 80% when it comes to children and people with lower incomes. And that the major food and drink companies lobbied to block the UK government’s efforts pushing for discounts on healthier and minimally processed products 

In the Indian sub-continent meanwhile, an average household derives more calories from processed foods than fruits (The Lancet study 2020). What is staggering is that this diet has been reshaped over the course of a single generation. While regulations around ultra-processed foods are tightening in both the UK and India, food regulations in India are considered weak, ambiguous, and industry-friendly, leading to a lack of strong front-of-pack labelling and effective advertising restrictions. 

Last year I reached out to the Access to Nutrition Initiative (ATNI) in India - a pivotal global foundation dedicated to transforming the food industry to learn more about their work and the ATNI’s India Index. The India Index 2023 assesses the performance of the 20 largest food and beverage manufacturers of India. The findings based on 1,901 products are not unexpected but still staggering 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

👉🏾 The average Health Star Rating for all companies’ products is a shocking 1.9 out of 5, well below the ‘healthy’ threshold of 3.5

👉🏾 Sales of packaged F&B in India have surged by 15% every year since 2011, outperforming total food sales. Spending on F&B increased at a rate of 9% per year between 2011 to 2021

👉🏾 76% of sales are derived from less healthy products. Nineteen of the 20 companies derive most of their sales revenue from less healthy products.

👉🏾 The positives seven of the 20 companies have responsible advocacy plans and five institutional investors and shareholders of food companies in India have now signed up to nutrition frameworks such as the Investor Expectations on Nutrition, Diets and Health as part of their responsible investment strategies.

Another disappointing fact, specifically highlighted in the index is that products sold in low-income countries like India tend to have lower health star ratings than those sold in high-income countries, indicating that the nutritional value of products may be lower in lower-income markets.

The findings are an eyeopener for the food industry, consumers, regulators, investors and activists and reveal the need for reform and greater transparency.

And should we not be asking as to how and why is it acceptable for multinational companies to offer products with low nutritional value in poorer countries compared to their offerings in high-income countries?

Head to the podcast to listen to the episode 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good morning, Vivek. Wonderful to have you as a guest on The Elephant in the Room Podcast today.

Vivek: Morning Sudha. And thank you for giving me this opportunity to come to the podcast, The Elephant in the Room and share my thoughts with you.

Sudha: So let's get started could you introduce yourself for the benefit of the audiences?

Vivek: I'm Vivek Arora and I work in the area of food and nutrition. So right from the beginning in the career I was involved with the food production. And there was a turnaround in 2008 when I got the opportunity to produce therapeutic and supplementary foods, and that's how I got introduced to the space of Nutrition.

And since then, I found a purpose, earlier I was producing fast foods and now I'm producing food for a purpose or contributing towards nutritious foods. So that's the transition that has happened. Of late after that stint I worked with development sector like Tata Trust and then went on to be an advisor in the space of nutrition, where currently I am advising ATNI and GAIN. ATNI is access to nutrition initiative and GAIN is Global Access for Improved Nutrition. So both are, global foundations and I provide my advisory services to them.

Sudha: Amazing. So you've also made a transition from the private sector to the development sector and found your purpose with what you are doing with your experience to use your experience for the next stint. So tell us a bit more about what the ATNI is or Access to Nutrition initiative is.

Vivek: So basically Access to Nutrition Initiative is a global foundation. What we do is, we challenge the food industry, the policy makers and the investors to produce, nutritious food or, create food systems that are more nutritious.

So what we actually do is we analyse data and come out with actionable points that helps them to take on the decisions basically.

Sudha: Very interesting considering that the world is struggling with hunger in some places, and obesity in some places. And I read a news report yesterday that India is also on the cusp of struggling with, an obesity crisis. However, that's another conversation to be had.

So what do and sustainable investment look like for nutrition, and do you have examples of where it has worked? And what is the scale of investments that is being made in this industry and what is needed?

Vivek: So basically sustainable investment is like the investors and the bond holders.

They invest in food companies, which drive a sustainable change in the companies. So basically it is nudging the investors, and it is being done through different means so right from collaborative approach to we need to take shareholder resolutions.

We work with the companies we analyse; we share the data with them, and then they take action. So either the companies take it or we then provide the reports to the investors. Who then take it to the board or the CEO to take actions and produce more nutritious or sustainable food and healthier options to the population basically.

So the motto of ATNI is providing healthier diets for all so we are nudging the companies who are producing food in the market to provide and give healthier options. Just to give you an example, we worked with Unilever and there were certain, board resolutions and there was a collaborative approach where we had three rounds of meetings with them. And they later started disclosing data on healthier options that they provide. So there are different profiling models available across the globe. And there are government recognized standard profiling models. They started disclosing the data on it and that's the way you come out in public, you commit in public, and then you improve. Unilever is a very, very good example. They almost, kind of stopped marketing unhealthy food to the children. So it was a big achievement I would rather say.

Sudha: Yeah that's a big thing. My interest in this question is because I look at the intersection of equity and inclusion and ESG and sustainable development and I understand from some of the information that you have shared that there are at least 88 financial institutions who manage like 21 trillion in assets who are working with you to invest more responsibly in nutrition. So all of this conversation around ESG being dead or sustainable development should not be a priority, I think, sounds more and more like rhetoric.

Vivek: You are right. See there are people who want the healthier option, and that's what our approach is because where do you consume food from? You consume food from markets. Now imagine if the markets are not able to provide in any case would consume food. So the objective here is to drive that market and transform them into healthier options and more sustainable options.

That's what we are working for, basically.

Sudha: And you have sufficient traction on this from investors. I can see.

Vivek: Definitely 21 trillion of assets under management and 88 investors on our side and growing. So, it's almost one third of the total investment by the company. So significant and with more popularity, where the index gets recognized and used by more investors, we see a good progress here.

Sudha: That's great, so ATNI released the Indian Index in 2023. What was the focus of the index and what is the methodology of the research?

Vivek: So basically this ATNI index 2023 is not new to India. So the first index was in 2016 where we analysed 10 companies. And the second index came in 2020, where 16 companies were analysed. In 2023 in total, 20 companies were analysed. These 20 companies produce about, say, 36% of the total processed food available in the Indian markets, which is significant.

So how do we analyze? There is a set methodology, and under each section there are several questions and the companies are asked these questions and each question is marked, and then the then a ranking is published. Just to give you an example the different sections.

So the first section is, the methodology. So the first one is nutrition policy, so do they have a policy? Do they have a written policy? The questions are like, do you have targets under this policy? Suppose they have a written policy, but they do not have targets, they will not get full marks.

That is one that we analyse. The second is the products, so whatever products they're producing. So this is analysed based on the Australian star rating. So if it is having a more than three and a half star it is a healthy product or if it is below three and a half star, it is a less healthy product. So in total, out of this 20 companies, 1,901 products were analysed to come out with the results.

The third section is the responsible marketing, section where we ask them questions like, unhealthy products are not being marketed to children, or they are not using certain advertising means to consumer to consume, products which are unhealthy.

The fourth focus is on the labelling, so how are they labelling their products? Is it easy for the consumers to read the labels or judge from the labels. Is proper information provided in the labels. So that is also analysed.

And the fifth is the governance. So what is their governance mechanism? How transparent they are with the governance. So that is analysed.

And the sixth section is the workforce nutrition. So for their own employees? if they are providing the food or what is their policy, are they doing nutritional checks on their xxxxx. Is breastfeeding space provided in their factories. So such questions are asked and analysed.

And the last section is affordable diets. So do they take steps to make their food affordable and accessible for all? The biggest example is like having smaller packs of biscuits available so that it's more affordable. Or a small pack of oil.

The daily labourers in India, they buy oil every day, they don't earn money to buy one litre of oil. Initially they used to buy a loose oil, which was adulterated, not safe to consume. So now small pack of oil, they're available in the market so that they can procure this packaged oil and get safe oil. So those kinds of initiatives are appreciated.

So that's the whole methodology and once that scoring is done, then the ranking is published.

Sudha: And what were the key findings from the India Index? Were there some things that were startling and surprising for you?

Vivek: Yeah, so the biggest surprise, not a surprise because our indexes from last 10 years also showed similar trend. But the biggest revelation was that 76% of the products available from this 20 companies were less healthy.

Sudha: Oh my God.

Vivek: So this was the biggest finding I would say. And the sales that were being derived by the companies. So 19 of the 20 companies were deriving more sales from unhealthy products or less healthy products, I would say.

Sudha: Wow.

Vivek: So that was the clear finding that we could see and over these years, I would say that there was a slight change, so about a percent, of the company's producing more healthier products. But it was not, what we had expected.

Sudha: So one is about how unhealthy products are being marketed and that most products that are marketed are not the healthier ones.

Vivek: The healthier is 3.5 and about unhealthy, 76% is below 3.5 rating.

Sudha: Below 3.5. Was there an urban, rural, divide.

Vivek: No, it's difficult to find the data of urban and rural divide because we are analysing the companies and the sales from the company.

So on the affordability, yes, there is some data available as to what initiatives the companies have taken to capture the rural market because it's a very price sensitive market in India. So that data is available and they're making their products more affordable to reach the rural market.

Sudha: So more affordable but less healthy or more affordable and more healthy?

Vivek: Both. The nudge to the companies actually is to provide healthier options at affordable prices. So that's the nudge.

Sudha: Is there a difference between how local companies and multinationals behave? Because I feel personally having worked across the UK and India, that there is a stark difference, on how companies may behave in the UK, and then how they come into India and they behave differently.

Vivek: So, in that sense, yes, I would say that, if a multinational company is coming into India, then I would say that they should also bring in the global standards. But one stark difference that I observed, during the assessment was that the multinational companies are more organized in their documentation.

So they're able to present themselves better than a comparative Indian company. The Indian company might be doing things or taking lot of initiatives, but they have never documented that. So while assessment was being done, by ATNI, we also observed that there were certain companies which realized that, we are doing a lot, but we are not doing it in an organized manner.

We're not monitoring our progress over the years. So because of our assessment that also kind of a development or initiative, those companies who participated in the 2020 Index for the first time. They started now documenting.

Just to give you an example, one of the companies. So they, had a data of 250,000 people. Health data because they had developed an app, which was helping their employees for say consultation on health issues and XXXXXX data of their employees, plus their families. So imagine how much impact can they create, because they have a tool that is available with them to, disseminate good information and provide education to their employees plus their families.

Sudha: That's an opportunity to speak more about healthy choices. A lot of the Indian companies have not been very structured in capturing data, and so they may not have legacy data on where they started and what progress they may have made. But the good thing is, like you say, that they are getting on board and understanding the importance of capturing that data for the future.

Vivek: And, to everyone's surprise. This is an Indian company, so very progressive.

Sudha: Yeah. that's amazing. , Vivek, I have a question.

Should it be illegal for companies to be greenwashing to the extent that they do? Because if you look at , I don't want to name companies and all that, but if you look at some of the major, packaged food producers in the country, they all have some mandatory requirements, because of legislation to report on, what they're doing.

But in the recent past, a lot of people, instead of presenting specific data, they have used like vague sort of things to say, oh, we sell nutritious, or we believe in healthier, or they advertise about healthier. But they're not necessarily healthier products So there is a lot of greenwashing that is happening in the sector. First of all, should it be illegal and does India have policies and laws that require these companies to ensure that they comply with, best practice, nutritional standards? In the last response, you said, that when multinationals come into the country, they should bring in global standards that are good or best practice? What are your thoughts?

Vivek: See, in India, all the food companies, they are governed by the food regulator, which is FSSAI, Food and Safety Standards Authority of India. And there are standards laid down. Plus, the claims also are very well defined by FSSAI, so they need to follow and all of them do follow the regulation, but the gray area here is that there is no clear definition for unhealthy food.

So in want of that definition, there are certain gray areas where, the companies do go in for greenwashing. I would rather say.  Also with multinational companies, the standards being adopted, say for example, an EU standard is more stringent than the FSSAI standard, but the companies are the experts. If the company or the manufacturer believes that this is a good standard, then whether it is the law of the land or not, they should bring in the global practice to the country. That's what I believe.

Sudha: That's true. They have a responsibility and an opportunity to do so.

And of course with, changing consumer behaviours, consumers are getting more and more conscious about what they're buying, I think that would be the way forward for them.

Vivek: I would say currently the consumers are ignorant. And, the manufacturers are the experts.

So the manufacturers should not take the benefit of the ignorance.

Sudha: That's very kindly put, I'd say,