Michael Shellenberger appreciates the challenge skeptics offer regarding the existence of UFOs (also termed UAPs, "Unexplained Aerial Phenomena"). Skeptics, true believers, and everyone in between have taken note of Michael’s reporting on the topic. In this conversation with Peter Boghossian, Michael explains his level of confidence about visitations by non-terrestrial spacecraft. (Peter says the verified discovery of alien spacecraft would be a revolution comparable to humanity’s domestication of fire—and he wants it to be true but requires evidence.)

Peter and Michael also discuss a more down-to-earth possible cover-up regarding the source of COVID-19. They explore free speech, censorship for adults vs. children, the Orwellian “Institute for Strategic Dialogue,” levels of societal hate, “crazy-making,” the attitudinal disposition to the truth as a basis of friendship, their friendship, and much more. Michael Shellenberger is an author, investigative journalist, and the founder & president of Environmental Progress, a nonprofit research organization. He also co-founded the California Peace Coalition, an alliance of parents of children killed by fentanyl and parents of homeless addicts. Michael is the author of Break Through: From the Death of Environmentalism to the Politics of Possibility (with Ted Nordhaus), Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All, and most recently, San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities. He also coauthored An EcoModernist Manifesto. Twitter: @shellenberger Skeptic Michael Shermer also spoke with Michael Shellenberger about his reporting on alien spacecraft.  Next week, we’ll hear Peter's interview with Shermer! Watch this episode on YouTube